The right to self-determination of the people of Scotland is not in dispute. That right is enshrined in Article 1.2 of the Charter of the United Nations. Which peoples qualify to benefit from that right is a frequent subject of dispute, but the case of Scotland has been conclusively conceded by the government of the UK in agreeing to the 2014 Independence referendum and agreeing to abide by the result.
The people of Scotland thus have multiple citizenships. They are citizens of Scotland, and of two over-arching bodies, of the United Kingdom and of the European Union. Both UK and EU citizenship are very real, with EU citizenship in particular conferring a wide range of individual rights to the citizen enshrined in numerous international treaties. This dual citizenship is reflected on your passport. On both the cover and the inside page, it says European Union above United Kingdom.
This raises the question of what happens if the people of Scotland, with their right of self determination, experience an unwilling conflict between the two superior citizenships. This will arise if the United Kingdom votes to leave the European Union while Scotland votes to remain in. The situation of conflict will be that a self-determining people will have voted in referenda to retain two overarching citizenships, but by force majeure be able to retain only one of them.
The position in international law given this outcome is absolutely clear. Being unable to follow both results of referenda of the Scottish people, Scotland through its government will have the right to determine which citizenship to retain. EU citizenship is arguably the superior citizenship, conferring much wider rights.
There is in any event no requirement in international law for a referendum on Independence before you declare Independence. In fact, the majority of nations in this world only became independent in my own lifetime, and over 90% of those became independent without a referendum.
In the event that Scotland votes Remain and the UK votes Leave, the SNP government which I hope and expect again to see at Holyrood should immediately make a Declaration of Independence to maintain the individual citizenry rights of Scots to EU citizenship. This is perfectly legal in international law and will, beyond any doubt, be welcomed by the large majority of states of the European Union who will welcome the decision of Scots to remain members.
As somebody who worked professionally for nearly four years on EU enlargement, it always scunners me that it is so little understood that the entire political mood and dynamic of the EU is expansionist. It seeks as a matter of principle to incorporate all Europeans. That is why Romania and Bulgaria were accepted with an analysis everyone knew to be farcical that they conformed to the acquis communitaire. The departure of any country, even the awkward England and Wales, will be seen as a tragedy and the adherence of Scotland will be a matter of rejoicing. Even Spain will be reconciled because the circumstance of the UK leaving the EU gives a plausible unique factor that is not a precedent for Catalonia.
Within the SNP, perhaps understandably the focus tends to be on the internal UK constitutional and political scene. This is actually an error. The Independence of any Nation is above all a matter of international law, and the test of Independence is recognition of the world’s other states and acceptance into international institutions, above all the United Nations. The success of a Declaration of Independence will rest in its acceptance in Brussels and New York, not its acceptance in Westminster.
Cameron will get nothing substantive from his EU renegotiation. He is not liked by other European leaders. Eastern Europeans, in particular, can recognise a snob who looks down his nose at them when they see one. I speak from certain knowledge – more than one Eastern European minister involved has told me so. It shows how low Cameron has sunk, that a minute circulating yesterday in the Cabinet Office described the atmosphere in the immediate aftermath of the Paris attacks as an “opportunity” to gain concessions on freedom of movement.
There is no gamechanger coming from Cameron’s “renegotiation” that will materially affect the dynamics of the EU referendum campaign, and opinion polls indicate that the UK leaving and Scotland voting to remain is a very probable outcome. The Scottish government should be starting now to make preparations for declaring Independence immediately in the event of such a result. Top priority in those preparations should be discussions in Brussels and EU capitals with all EU states to prepare them for such an event and garner discreet assurances. The Scottish Government is of course prohibited from such lobbying, but the SNP is not. I for one will offer my services without charge.
“1 Kings 11.6
1 Kings 11.7
I think this leads to many of the worlds problems.
bill munny”
Bill set me off sussing out which of the two gods Solomon strayed onto – namely Ashtaroth/Ishtar and Moloch. I believe inside the Catholic Church lies a secret enclave which is anything but Christian, and this may have been what Berengiere Sauniere found in Rennes le Chataeu (I visited there a few years ago and it is a creepy place). I think he discovered satanic liturgy documents and was able to blackmail the Vatican successfully therefrom. One branch of the twin faith worships human sacrifice specifically children. The other worships trees. Is it possible this is the great secret the Templars and Freemasons held?
For anyone interested in how closely tied the UK was to Washington at the time, and how badly informed it was about Soviet nuclear capability, read Mark Urban’s biased account, UK Eyes Alpha: The Inside Story of British Intelligence, noting carefully what he concluded about BRIXMIS missions if war had ever broken out (pp. 79-80)
” Scotland would have been obliterated because the USSR had 82 nuclear-armed SS-23 missiles that the cocky Brits had never spotted during their BRIXMIS missions in East Germany. ”
Max range SS-23 = 480km.
Straight line distance between Scotland and former East Germany around 900km.
Good call Craig, other independence sites have covered the declaring of independence of Scotland without a referendum, I’m all for it.
Last year the No camp claimed that Scotland would lose around 300,000 jobs in Scotland if we left the UK, and ergo the EU, now the EU is a bad thing in their eyes, hypocritical b*stards.
Scotland exports millions of pounds worth of goods to EU businesses, in a market of over 500 million people, there’s too much at stake to let the Tories drag us out of Europe.
We need the EU trading market, to the West we have the giant US market and TTIP, which I’m against to the East we the giant Asian economy repaving the Silk road, if we’re not in the EU we’ll end up marginalised.
The rest of the UK would still need to meet the EU criteria if they wanted to trade within Europe. Norway is a prime example, they are the 10th largest contributor to the EU budget even though they’re not a member, and have no vote on EU regulations.
Yes there is to much bureaucracy and corruption within the EU, and something has to be done about that, but in my opinion the benefits outweigh the downsides.
Meanwhile the Scotland Bill, has been stopped at the unelected House of Lords so they can scrutinise it, the undemocratic house full of troughers will make their unelected recommendations at a later date.
So whats going to happen should England vote to leave and Scotland stays inside the EU?
will all who have residency here, receive a pension and/or health service according to reciprocate agreements, be in limbo land?
what if a EU immigrant resident, living in England for half his life, and wanting to help out on that highly regarded DTRH fair next Port Mentieth,
will s/he be turned back at the border?
will s/he have to immigrate to Scotland?
Its a good time to try and persuade both Irish Governments of your case for Independence first, who knows what they are planning.
@ Fred, you wordy wondering ‘I’m wondering if action will be brought against the Scottish government for deliberately misleading the people of Scotland in their white paper.’
Do you believe that this Scottish Government you so obviously don’t like, would look any different after the next election and the next one after, Fred?
There has never been a fair election before Scotland choose to ditch the Union inspired FPTP for a proportional system, so there is a fairer system now, you have the chance to win fair and square in an election.
So why not openly oppose that Scottish Government you always accuse of this that and the other?, If they are wrong with their oil reserve estimates, and you do use the falling oil prices like a beating stick, why don’t you start campaigning politically and put your money where your mouth is, Tiger?
your all bluster Fred and you do not know where you belong, you’re not proud to be an Englishmen and you nag at ‘the Scottish Government’ for getting it all wrong.
At least Craig is prepared to stand up for Independence, even when the SNP is rejecting him.
Unionism is tribal and it has replaced the catholic fervor of the past, all that reeking ol’ tripe will fall by the wayside whence Independence comes, hopefully as soon as voters reject their historical European past heritage in a referendum whose implication they don’t understand or can imagine.
SS-23s were intermediate-range missiles which had ranges of somewhere between 500 and 1500 miles, well within the distance from the GDR to Scotland..
And then there were SS-23s around Leningrad too.
You should really brush up on your geography and INF negotiations.
And don’t forget the blast wave and nuclear fallout from nuclear weapon explosions.
People have dubbed David Cameron’s personal jet “Dave Force One” or “Camcorde” it will cost £2000 per hour in running costs, the Royal family will also use the jet (no surprise there then, Ebola’s got nothing on those parasites).
The shift to the private jet comes after the taxpayer forked out £100,000 to fly the PM back and forth to Saudi Arabia on several occasions earlier this year to kiss the arse of the new Saudi king.
Still I suppose it’s cheaper than “Blair Force One” when the taxpayer forked out a whopping £100 million for two private jets, one for Blair, and you guessed it, one for the Royal parasites.
What Ruth said. Britain is not allowed to leave the EU. As the CIA’s most servile hard-line satellite, the British puppet regime is a valuable agent in the EU. Cameron’s tasking is to engineer a ‘close call’ that boosts his bargaining position as an advocate of statist repression. The British regime will use propaganda and clandestine manipulation exactly as it did in the independence referendum.
SS-23. Short range battlefield weapon.
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/ss23_spider.htm
Withdrawn and scrapped following INF but incapable of reaching Scotland from East Germany.
” Norway is a prime example, they are the 10th largest contributor to the EU budget even though they’re not a member, and have no vote on EU regulations. ”
They’re not legally obliged to adopt them either.
I admire your decision to stay out of it, Lysias. So why did you post?
If SS-23s were short-range weapnos, why would the West and Mark Urban discuss them in the context of the INF negotiations
And Urban was quite wrong to state that the Soviets, fortunately, had no intention of using the SS-23s them against the UK (p. 80) when they planned to do so if the Anglo-Amercan subs started degrading the Soviets underwater ICBMs
You just won’t face up to the facts, preferring instead Soviet lies, and Western agreements of them to help cover up how reckless it had been.
So rebels are holding hostages at a hotel in Bamako Mali, and French forces are coming to the rescue, that’s the picture the gigantic media wheel wants you to believe that’s my take on it.
The reality is very much different France has been asset stripping Mali for a few years now, gold uranium and diamonds are just a few of Mali’s precious materials.
The rebels if there are any (debatable) in my opinion aren’t Daesh or ISIL, but a nationalist militia force who know what France is up to and they also know that they’re own government is compliant with the whole thing.
The other side of the narrative, is to portray what’s happening in Mali as a terrorist act, it justifies Frances position within Mali.
For those pushing the terror agenda, there’s no better time than the present to do so.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/oil-price/60838/oil-price-why-it-could-collapse-to-20-a-barrel
Barclay’s Corporate Banking disagrees…
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/business/news/north-sea-boost-as-oil-price-rise-forecast-1.911245
Place bets now…
…Fred. (Re armed police stalking the streets of Aberdeen, did you manage to get to the Ingerland, Ingerland, Ingerland v. France game?)
Above, Ba’al says “Lysias” but means “Pan” (11.22am)
And why did the Soviets deny that the INF agreement covered the existence of the SS-23s by saying that they had built them before the negotiations began rather than just saying that they were short-range missiles which the treaty didn’t cover?
“They’re not legally obliged to adopt them either.”
—————-
But of unlike consecutive retarded British governments, Norway had the acumen to set up an oil fund….now its reached the f*ck you money stage, we don’t need to adopt your rules.
Every man, woman and child in oil-rich Norway became a theoretical millionaire this week.
The country’s oil fund — which collects taxes from oil profits and invests the money, mostly in stocks — exceeded 5.11 trillion crowns ($905 billion) in value this week, making it worth a million crowns per person, or about $177,000 per Norwegian.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/11/oil-fund-norway-millionaires_n_4576887.html
So the Tories attack dog, and Leader of the House of Commons, Chris Grayling says “Without Trident one of Scotland’s most beautuful areas would become a wasteland.”
So having Astute class subs leaking god knows what into the loch, which is just 20 minutes drive away from Loch Lomond a national park, somehow stops that area of Scotland from becoming a wasteland.
No doubt Grayling also thinks the nukes stored deep in the mountain at Coulport stop the area from becoming a wasteland.
“Now that SNP top advisor Alex Bell has told the truth and blown the economic case for independence right out of the water I’m wondering if action will be brought against the Scottish government for deliberately misleading the people of Scotland in their white paper.”
__________________
Bell left the SNP, under a cloud in 2013, ever since he’s been full of bitterness and acrimony towards the SNP and Scottish independence.
His opinion is about as relevant, as Jim Murphy’s or Anas Sarwar’s.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/chiels-that-ding/#more-78750
Oh I don’t know Fred, I quite like the thought of Unilateral Independence, the USA, Albania, and the Philippines chose that route.
But tell me Fred, if that’s the way it unfolds, will you consider the old Clash song.
Should I stay or should I go.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLQJVKP3YlM
Ace Craig. Go for it.
You have to wait in line for SNP selection, the same as everyone else. That is how it works. People have to prove themselves. So many candidates, so little time. Patience is a virtue. Your talents will be welcome. Keeping, keeping on. It could be because of spook’s establishment/connection. Suspicion.
Surprisingly, not being a fan at all of UDI in the modern referendum age, I’d agree with a lot of this article. For this though:
“The success of a Declaration of Independence will rest in its acceptance in Brussels and New York, not its acceptance in Westminster.”
I’d add that it would have to be accepted in Scotland as well, and the only way to check that out is with a – Referendum, where more than 50% (i.e. 50% + 1) accept the UDI. But having gone partway along the UDI route, Scotland would have no problem holding a Referendum with, or without, Westminster’s “approval”. Short of them sending in the tanks, of course.
@Fred “Now that SNP top advisor Alex Bell has told the truth”
Doesn’t it worry you Fred that the best the Unionists can cling to is an ex-advisor who parted company with the SNP back in July 2013? Possibly not on the best of terms? One single person hoping and succeeding in getting publicity for his new subscription blog?
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear!
Trident is a threat to Glasgow/Scotland. It could make Scotland a wasteland. 6 rusty contaminated vessels at Rosyth. Thatcher made Scotland a wasteland. She illegally and secretly took all the Oil resources, cancelled a pipeline wasting the equivalent if £Billions of Gas, and closed every manufacturing facility in Scotland. ‘This must be kept secret’ written on the Official documents. They were kept secret and released last year.
If it is so important, why is it not parked up in the Thames, near Westminster. It could keep them fine and warm. A £170Billion total waste of time, plus decommissioning costs. They are dumping contaminated nuclear waste in Ethiopia.
The sheer mendacity of London lounger Grayling and of the bile he is said above to have retched up is final confirmation that this Tory-Labour cabal of over-promoted ne’er-do-wells have stepped off into into a fantasy world, a completely false reality of their own disordered minds’ making.
The natural environment there, as in almost all of Scotland is still spectacularly beautiful, but there it’s not improved by 10-foot high fences topped by razor wire, automatic fire machine guns atop posts, and killing zone no-mans land perimeters. The seabed is littered with hundreds of tonnes of unknown debris dumped there by the US navy and by the RN, from nuclear waste to rotting hulks.
A wasteland economically, industrially, and in that neck of the woods environmentally, that’s what they’ve set about turning Scotland into, for as long this union has existed, accelerated since the mid-70s, every screw has been turned beyond its shear point, every asset stripped or sabotaged, dependency upon England for everything in which we were self-sufficient, which was everything conceivable, from ocean liners to microchips, was meticulously planned and engineered.
The Soviet Union did not reduce East Germany after ww2 to the extent to which the Union, of Westminster and Whitehall misanthropes, ransack and smash ‘their’ Scottish possession and hinder its independent prospects. Almost a half-century, a lifetime for some, this scorched-earth policy has raged and still we stand firm, nothing is done that cannot be undone, no injury so great that cannot heal in time, we’re stronger for it, growing in number and with strength in depth, in resilience, in forebearance for our tormentor’s bottomless malice and pathological unreason. We will see out this pipsqueak Westminster government, we will see out all Westminster government.
Nuclear issues it seems were Project Fear’s topic yesterday, with the BBC leading with a complete non-story, of a problem with AGR’s like Hunterston, that’s been known about for more than 20 years. It’s an odd definition of ‘news’.
Can’t agree with you on the EU, Craig, lots of good intentions, lots of lofty sentiments, the reality is a coercive proto-superpower, of hyper-centralisation, of a one-stop shop for lobbyists; fraudulent, corruption-ridden, fundamentally undemocratic, incapable of and hostile to reform. The Franco-German Fourth Reich, as if anyone thinks the Nazis invaded France without the support of a near majority of the French populace and its elite, or faced any real opposition at all, and did not have help for their spearhead, from military, politicians or civilians, they’ve completely misunderstood the early course of the second world war. One out, all out.
Alex Bell could have been a Unionist plant. He is suspected of releasing sensitive information and acting against the Independence Movement. A (paid?) fifth columnist.
didn’t someone mention yet that a recent poll in Scotland found those against holding another independence vote was in the 60% range; I accept that Should EngWales even accidentally leave the EU then those numbers might reverse.
Today the front page of the Torygraph had so many ‘kill Corbyn’ articles that it is beginning to resemble the dyslexic “Le Figaro” website here
Caution: some of the contents here are just as believable as UK-oligarch drivel
http://www.legorafi.fr/2015/11/18/letat-islamique-annonce-sa-dissolution-apres-que-son-chef-a-lu-le-coran-pour-la-premiere-fois/
Norway has to trade with the EU under commercial guides, but has no say on EU policies. Exchange rates could be problematic. Currency exchange charges. Fees etc. Strong Kroner.
@Ken2
Either that or he is an SNP plant. Get all the anti-indy, anti-SNP lot frothing at that mouth, taking him as their source for everything bad, and then saying “fooled you”.
That would be funny.