This is the official Turkish radar track of the Russian aircraft they shot down, in red. It briefly transited a tiny neck of Turkish land – less than two miles across where the Russian jet passed – twice. I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.
But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict.
Mary’s apologia deserves a response.
“The troll’s problem with me is that I support Palestine.”
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Not at all, you’re free to support whoever and whatever you like. After all, we live in a wonderfully free country where all shades of opinion are tolerated. The worst that can happen to you in this free country of ours is that you might get a kicking on the internet from time to time. But you won’t get harassed by the authorities, lose your job, have to flee abroad or even get killed.
But I digress: my problem with you is, I suppose, your obsessiveness, your mendacity, your over-reliance on cut and paste, your unwillingness to ever admit you might have got something wrong and last but not least, your peculiar habit of pointing out the Jewish (not Israeli, not Zionist)connections of anyone you have taken against for whatever reason.
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“Habbabkuk (using various spellings) arrived on here 4 yrs ago with the express purpose of attacking me.”
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Wrong again – with respect, you accord yourself too much importance. And perhaps I accorded you too much importance as well because over time I’ve come to realise that there are far more seriously vicious and deranged people on here than you. They now get most of my attention but I still keep an eye on you for old times sake, so to speak.
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“It became extremely unpleasant and I was in a very dark place (I am not joking) for a while. I rallied though.”
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Well, you know the answer: those who dish it out in the anonymity of the internet must be prepared to receive it. However, I do admit you sometimes appear to believe you are owed special treatment – feel free to tell us why that should be so.
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…..your second para….
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Do stop milking your personal health problems, it’s undignified. One can sympathise with you, and wish you well, on a personal, non-blog level but you cannot expect that sympathy to affect reactions to your posts on here.
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“I am here because I support Craig’s stand against injustice.”
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That’s fine, but you should perhaps reflect about whether your modus operandi on here is entirely helpful to that aim.
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Having said all of which, have a good day.
Wasn’t this world class ass heavily responsible for the disastrous Libyan intervention?
Why the **** would anybody want to hear what this imbecile has to say now?
UK should not rule out sending ground troops to Syria, says William Hague
Former foreign secretary says it would be a ‘mistake for Britain or other western nations to rule out some of our own forces operating there’
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/25/uk-should-not-rule-out-sending-ground-troops-to-syria-says-william-hague?
Turkey Has Destroyed Russia’s Hope of Western Cooperation
by Paul Craig Roberts / November 24th, 2015
UPDATE: A friend, George Abert, suggested a reason why the Turks shot down the Russian fighter-bomber over Syria. The Russians have a technology that they recently demonstrated against the newest US missile cruiser and Israel’s US jet fighters. The technology shuts down the communication systems of hostile forces, leaving them blind. He wonders if the Russian aircraft was shot down in order to encourage the Russians to use its unknown technology whenever Russian aircraft are in the vicinity of NATO and Israeli aircraft. He bets that the US has sent every Raven and ELINT specialist to the area in hopes that Russia’s use of the technology will allow them to learn enough about the system to duplicate it or learn how to block it.
Turkey’s unprovoked shoot-down of a Russian military aircraft over Syria raises interesting questions. It seems unlikely that the Turkish government would commit an act of war against a much more powerful neighbor unless Washington had cleared the attack. Turkey’s government is not very competent, but even the incompetent know better than to put themselves into a position of facing Russia alone.
http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/11/turkey-has-destroyed-russias-hope-of-western-cooperation/?
Smedley Butler: WAR IS A RACKET
Once you understand this, you understand why things have happened the way they have since WW2.
Most people (who are awake) see blowback and un-intended consequences.
I’m with Smedley Butler, War is a Racket and everything you see is a marker of INTENDED consequences.
The Cold War, Vietnam, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Al-qeada, Taliban , ISIL, ISIS, the war on terror…..they are all self perpetuating Opportunities.
Democracy and humanitarian intervention are PR speak for the average couch potato to help rationalize their ignorance.
Seems the mods/censors are wide awake now!
Russian curtailment of energy supplies to Turkey may not be overly problematic.
In June of this year Russia signed an MOU with Shell E.on and OMV to double the capacity of the proposed Nordstream pipeline (the one that avoids transiting any countries other than Russia and Germany).
More or less contemporaneously Gazprom announced that the proposed TurkStream pipeline (the one that goes to Turkey) has been delayed and the proposed capacity cut.
Turkish alternatives are pretty much confined to a proposed pipeline from Qatar – one that cannot be built for so long as the Assad regime remains. Neither Russia nor Iran are keen on the Qatari´s.
Turkey´s goose is cooked so to speak, unless…the US/EU are really as stupid as their public utterences suggest them to be.
Deepgreenpuddock; “I have a theory-HaBBAKUK IS CRAig. Discuss”
I used to entertain that suspicion, certainly both share some similarities, however I now reckon it’s more likely that the Habba-Clown is delibrately encouraged by Craig, simply because Craig gets a kick out of the abuse that the Clown is permitted to hurl at “despised Lefties”.
Macky, are you serious? I assumed Hasbarakook was allowed to post here because of the amount of resources it would take to pre-moderate disruptive postings by hasbara scum such as him, from which many many blogs suffer. And once moderation started, the effort by the scum would increase: the scum are highly organised.
“On the respective merits of the two jokes: Anon’s was based on historical fact and truth (Arab suicide bombers), yours on classical anti-Jew talk (50p piece, Jews are tight).”
You didn’t get it then.
Node’s joke was far more offensive than that and IMHO far more offensive than Anon1’s which I would only rate as being in extreme bad taste.
That said, personally I would whack such postings. There should be “no platform” for Zionazis, whether they’ve got their fangs out or whether they use the tactic of smoochy sealioning. But it isn’t my blog.
I know bloggers who spend a lot of their time defending their blogs against hasbaraniks. It does take a lot of effort.
Fred – why not bring them together? Did you hear about the Jewish kamikaze pilot who crashed his plane into his brother-in-law’s scrapyard?
Tony Opmoc has it right.
The atrocities in Paris have all the features of a Gladio style operation to induce Fear ,Uncertainty and Doubt in the masses.
The follow-up Bernays style organised propaganda and creation of hysteria, enables the authorities to introduce laws and actions to repress the civil rights of the citizens even more.
Plus in this case give the excuse for the UN to give a mandate to NATO to attack Syria. Be sure NATOs objective is ultimately Assad, with ISIL being a sideshow to distract.
As per usual the Western MSM is heavily complicit in furthering this agenda.
Con Couglin of the Telegraph being a particulary reprehensible MI6 shill.
simply because Craig gets a kick out of the abuse that the Clown is permitted to hurl at “despised Lefties”.
Is Craig not a leftie himself? He certainly sounds like one, love of the EU, the SNP, bashing the torries, all traits of the left I thought.
“Fred – why not bring them together? Did you hear about the Jewish kamikaze pilot who crashed his plane into his brother-in-law’s scrapyard?”
Not funny.
Look there are things you just don’t joke about and the Holocaust is one of them.
On-topic for this thread:
Russia have released their own map of their plane’s route, showing it as entirely inside Syria and alleging that the Turkish plane entered Syrian airspace.
Of course I have no idea which version, if either, is more accurate. It doesn’t matter much. The stated reasons for war are extremely rarely the actual reasons.
Russia have also deployed a missile cruiser near the Russian base at Latakia in Syria. Russia Today say that “the missiles can engage targets at a range of up to 150km, which is enough to cover all of southern Turkey from Latakia”. But it seems to me that they are underestimating the size of Turkey. A quick look at Wikipedia suggests that the range of the S-300FM sea-to-air missile is 150km, so this range wasn’t a misprint. A circle of radius 150km and centre near Latakia doesn’t cover all of southern Turkey. As I understand it, these missiles are fired from ships. I’m not one of those people who are obsessed with military hardware, so perhaps someone else can help here.
“All Russian bombers will now be accompanied by fighter jets to protect them from possible aggression. Russia also warned that it would destroy any aircraft threatening Russian forces deployed in the Middle Eastern country [Syria]“.
From a psywar point of view, it seems very likely that a Russian move is coming.
NATO must have known of the attack before it happened, its Turkish command must have had contact with the pilots and given them instructions for this turkey shoot, a plane that was no longer in its airspace than it takes one to lift a cup a tea, take a sip and put it down again.10 to 15 seconds.
Russia, by strength of their coordinated talks held at Vienna and Alyana, is an ally in the coalition of the damned, so why is this rogue, jumped up false flagger Erdogan, prioritising his local allegiances before that of NATO’s overall goals of fighting IS.
Ps. what’s a moderate rebel? Habby is one.
Fred, can you tell me something please. Why on earth do you mention the Holocaust? My joke, told to me by a Jewish woman, has got nothing whatsoever to do with the Holocaust. I think it’s funny.
I think in this instance maybe you should rationally examine the connections that your mind is throwing up.
Fred Node only changed Muslim and Arab with “Jew” in the same “jokes” that the racist scum anon had “contributed”. Your in depth analysis somehow does not take account of that!!!
Although my enemy’s enemy is my friend makes a lot more sense.
Fred – if you didn’t think my joke was funny, you’re bound not to like this spiel by Lenny Bruce either.
Whatever has happened to the Russian psywar advantage? This piece in RT contains the following sentence:
“Even if Turkey’s version of what happened on Tuesday is true, the response to alleged violation by Russia appears to be disproportionate and contradicting Ankara’s own position.”
No! That is not how to wage psychological warfare! That’s an elementary error. Present your own message; don’t pick the opponent’s message apart point by point. And don’t ever say “if what the enemy says is true”.
They should know that.
Is the kid in the office handling stuff while someone is on vacation or what?
But I imagine the Russian advantage in psywar is soon going to reassert itself.
What a shame Corinne Souza is no longer with us. She would have made a corking analysis of the psywar efforts by various parties.
Fredi; “Is Craig not a leftie himself?”
If you had been following this blog as long as I have, you would know that Craig is quite reactionary in some areas, and exactly what he thinks of “Lefties”.
“Fred Node only changed Muslim and Arab with “Jew” in the same “jokes” that the racist scum anon had “contributed”. Your in depth analysis somehow does not take account of that!!! ”
No, joking about death by gassing of Jews is different to death by suicide bombing of Arabs.
There is a line in the sand and I think those running this blog have always made it clear where that line is and why. Anon’s joke was sick but didn’t cross the line.
Fred you are the one bringing the gassing up!!! Node did not imply or for that matter made a joke!! All he did was rewrite the same “joke” with “Jew” in place of the “Muslim”!!!
Your line in the sand is only a line of your own making!!!
I know that you like to have the last word and often get involved in long and fruitless transactions. Alas I am too busy for that, fact that you are reading into the “jokes” all manner of events and historical antecedence is your choice if you wish.
However those of us whom read the “joke” found it to be an inversion of “Jew” instead of “Muslim” followed by the question of; “do you find this to be racists?” addressed at the racist cretin anon.
Now Fred you can either accept that as is, or get on with Ferdising it, in any case it is up to you to make your mind up but it is not up to you to rewrite history or try to change others mind through endless analysis covering all manner of events and stories and making quantum jumps as and when it is called for to prove your point.
“Fred you are the one bringing the gassing up!!! Node did not imply or for that matter made a joke!! All he did was rewrite the same “joke” with “Jew” in place of the “Muslim”!!! ”
Did you see Node’s “joke”?
Wasn’t it about Jews killing themselves by gassing?
Fred – as so often – is talking good sense.
People should listen to him more.
Salford Lad
Any post which includes references to both Gladio and Bernays is a good indicator of the bankrupt “mind” of its author.
Various posts on CM refer.
How long have you been a moderator habba?
Daesh (ISIS) issue a propaganda image to counter the propaganda by their enemies.
The woman on the right seems to have an exceptionally long index finger.
Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov says Turkey could have agreed the strike on the Russian plane with the US before carrying it out.
That link goes to a TASS wire in Russian. I haven’t yet seen this reported in English.
Lavrov also says Turkish planes violate Greek airspace 1500 times a year.
Fred : Wasn’t it about Jews killing themselves by gassing?
We’ll never know now. The Mods have destroyed the evidence. But even if you’re right, Fred, I still maintain Anon1’s ‘joke’ was worse than mine. Context is everything.
There is an ongoing campaign to vilify Muslims, to make others fear and hate them. It is media-led and re-enforced by willing foot soldiers like Anon1. The purpose is to create a climate of public opinion which tolerates Western atrocities against brown people. The effect in this country is a raised probability of a Muslim being attacked in the street or having his house or his mosque burned down. Anon1 deliberately and knowingly pours fuel on the fire.
Keep an eye on Anon1’s posts. His ‘joke’ is not an isolated instance. It is one of a series. He has previously ‘joked’ about locking up your daughters to prevent them being raped by Muslims. Another of his recurring themes is to associate Muslim refugees with terrorism. The problem with his ‘joke’ is not that it is tasteless or offensive, it’s that it is dangerous, it leads to actual harm to others.
Jokes are just words. If you are going to react like Pavlov’s dog just because a certain word was used, Anon1 will manipulate you like a puppet. It is the intent of the joke that is important. My intent was to expose bigotry, and I made that obvious. Anon1’s intent was to create division and hatred. Ask yourself which ‘joke’ is likely to have done most damage in the real world. Do you still think my ‘joke’ was more offensive?