This is the official Turkish radar track of the Russian aircraft they shot down, in red. It briefly transited a tiny neck of Turkish land – less than two miles across where the Russian jet passed – twice. I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.
But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict.
Although the Turks are quibbling about millimetric violations of “their” airspace, the whole province of Hatay (as the Turks call it) was blatantly stolen from Syria in the run-up to WW2. According to Wikipedia:
“On 29 June 1939, following a popular referendum, Hatay became a Turkish province. This referendum has been labelled both “phoney” and “rigged”, and a way for the French to let Turks take over the area, hoping that they would turn on Hitler.[7][8] For the referendum, Turkey crossed tens of thousands of Turks into Alexandretta to vote.[9] These were Turks born in Hatay who were now living elsewhere in Turkey. In two government communiqués in 1937 and 1938, the Turkish government asked all local government authorities to make lists of their employees originally from Hatay. Those who listed were then sent to Hatay to register as citizens and vote”.
One of the two pilots is reported dead. RIP
‘The pilots ejected before the jet crashed in Latakia province, but Syrian rebels said at least one was dead.’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983
The terrible thing is that there is no world statesman who could call an end to this increasing horror.
~~
The BBC have Mendoza of the HJS on to comment on the incident. He was rather nonplussed for a change. Last night some female from the same outfit appeared on the News channel. There must be a permanent taxi shuttle between Portland Place and the Millbank Tower.
The HJS has charitable status FFS. Two MPs are trustees – Damian Collins and Gisela Stuart.
Income £1,634,734
Spending £1,776,066
‘THE CHARITY WORKS TO BRING TOGETHER MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND POLITICAL, BUSINESS, MEDIA AND ACADEMIC LEADERS THROUGH A SERIES OF THEMED LECTURES, CONFERENCES, MEETINGS AND EVENTS SO THAT THEY CAN BETTER UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF CONTEMPORARY NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS. RESEARCH COVERING A VARIETY OF NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL POLICY TOPICS IS ALSO PUBLISHED FOR THE SAME PURPOSE.’ Ha!
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1140489&SubsidiaryNumber=0
Could Daesh and the US far-right Christian believers in “rapture” please get a room together? I mean they both believe in the return of Jesus.
Notice from STWC.
We must unite and let them hear our voices.
28 Nov London & across UK | Protest against parliament voting to bomb Syria
Day of protest against British bombing of Syria
Saturday 28 November | 12 noon – 2pm
Downing Street | London | And across the UK
Protests will take place this Saturday around the country against the imminent threat of bombing of Syria by British forces. This is in response to the proposed vote in Parliament by David Cameron which is likely to take place within the next week. The vote is more likely following the terrible events in Paris. Yet this bombing will not stop terror attacks.
Stop the War is opposed to this military response. There is already bombing in Syria, conducted by the US and French forces. Its net effect has not been to weaken ISIS. The cumulative effect of 14 years of western bombing in the region has been to increase the scale and spread of jihadi terrorism.
When Russian bombing of Syria began, nearly two months ago, David Cameron and Barack Obama warned that it would be counter productive, increase the threat of terrorism and create instability in the region.
Exactly the same applies to UK and any other bombing.
The London protest will be at Downing Street on Saturday 28 November between 12 and 2pm.
Source: Stop the War Coalition
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/events/stop-the-war-events-national/28-nov-london-across-uk-protest-against-parliament-voting-for-bombing-syria
Tom Welsh,
So “the shooting down of MH17” was US provocation against Russia? Interesting indeed. Even putin’s Goebbels Kisilev had not come (at least not public) with this idea.
Turkey defended its airspace. Russian planes carry live ammunition which they can drop (on purpose or by accident). Russians have violated many airspaces recently and got what they have deserve. Turkey has warned Russia several times. If they did not act it would turn into the “the last Chinese warning” and Russians would keep violating their airspace in future.
“Where’d you get the radar info?”
I looked into it and it and the picture seems to have originated with CNN Turk.
“probably over 1000 – Russian bombing raids against Daesh since the Sinai action”
And not a single civilian casualty (Russian bombs must be so super advanced that they only blow up when hit IS)? Or wait a minute. I forgot. MWF are only concerned with civilians killed by western coalition and give no sh.t about those killed by Russia. Because Russia is good just because it is not west.
Interesting and twisted hypocrisy indeed.
24.11.2015 (11:59)
Russian aircraft Su-24 crashed in Syria
According to the preliminary data, the pilots managed to eject from the warplane. During all the flight time, the aircraft was flying only within the borders of the Syrian territory. That was registered by objective monitoring data.Russian aircraft Su-24 crashed in Syria
~~
Today an aircraft from the Russian air group in the Syrian Arab Republic crashed on the territory of Syria supposedly shot down from the ground.
The aircraft was flying at the altitude of 6 000 metres. The status of the Russian pilots is being defined.
According to the preliminary data, the pilots managed to eject from the warplane.
The circumstances of the crash are being defined.
During all the flight time, the aircraft was flying only within the borders of the Syrian territory. That was registered by objective monitoring data.
http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12066609@egNews
Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation website
Russia tried to broker a diiplomatic solution. The West refused. Assad invited the Russians into Syria to try to find a solution. Russia are bombing people funded by the West. The West are bombing the same people. Turkey supports these people but has taken a Russian plan down.
The lunatics will start a nuclear 111WW if they don’t stop. The West has been attacking Syria for the last two years causing the biggest migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. 4Million refugees.
There is a video of the plane on this link. (Haberturk)
https://www.rt.com/news/323215-warplane-crash-syria-turkey/
entring any countrys airspace and not following the warning given to back off so many times is wrong///there are two types of people// there are those yho believe in god and fear him an do good /avoid evii/do justice/avoid sins///// the other type of people are thouse led by the devil who twist thah which is wrong into right/to spread disease/suffering/poverty/to keep fighting that which is right//the devils main task is to make sure you go to hell/// NOTHING WORRIES ME AS TO WHATS GOING ON IN THE WORLD BECAUSE THE FINAL OUT COME IS IN THE HANDS OF GOD///
@Tom Welsh
And Russia, Soviet and otherwise has never recognised Turkey’s sovereignty over Hatay. The Russians are pushing around Hatay to make that point to the Turks.
Mind you after the ‘referendum’ in Crimea Russia don’t have a leg to stand on on that issue.
I wonder if Russia could ‘respond’ by taking out an Israeli fighter jet violating Syrian airspace?
Hope Assad does not give Russia wider remit to police Syrian air space.
Turkey (Germany) Europe rely on Russian Oil & Gas. A pipeline goes through the Baltic Sea from Russia to Germany,
“The Su-24 wasn’t there for practice; it was presumably there to bomb a significant terrorist target”
The border with Turkey is a key theatre in the war against “ISIS”. Many supplies, like all those shiny new Toyota trucks, enter Syria across this border and many “ISIS” personnel flee over it in the wake of attack. You have to wonder which side Turkey is really on in all this.
@Uzbek – I’m not sure who you are calling hypocritical. I’m sure there have been many civilian casualties of the Russian air raids, and I wouldn’t want to deny that for one moment. There were many Russian civilian casualties too, in the Sinai crash. The regimes in London, Moscow, Washington, Paris, Teheran, Ankara, Damascus, Riyadh, ‘Israel’ – they’re all drenched in the blood of innocents; let’s not kid ourselves otherwise. Who are “MWF”? And what’s a “gizza”? You seem to be speaking in code.
In the Crimea, the majority Russian speakers voted to retain ties with Russia 90%. Their economy relies on Russia. Merkell refused the Ukraine a loan or it would have been bankrupt. The President turned to Russia. The trouble kicked off. Many were killed. The new elected Ukrainian President is the £Billionaire oligarch who aquired all the Ukrainians funds, through devious means.
The Ukraine relies on Russian Oil & Gas. Eventually after the bloodshed and trouble, the EU bailed the Ukraine out. So Russia is getting paid for Oil & Gas for Ukraine with EU money which will have to be repaid with interest.
Maybe he meant Putin is a ‘geezer’. When it comes to world leaders Putin is indeed a ‘proper geezer’ The Uzbek lost me on the MWF too..
Rcently a non Jewish Russian emigre Neo Nazi was holding the balance of power in Israel, supporting the persecuting of the Palestinian residents.
Putin is an ultra-nationalist who will do whatever he believes is in the best interest of Russia, both on a domestic and foreign policy basis.
Nationalism for many trumps everything, and a majority have held this view since 911/the Iraq war. An appreciation for the diverse cultures in the world, and a desire for world peace is not the same as a world government run by greedy psychopaths who regard élan vital as atomic.
Internationalism is kumbayah bullshit. Internationalists like agent Cameron/Obama are weak, ineffective, and incredibly dangerous. Witness Cameron/Obama’s failed policies in Iraq, Syria, and especially Libya. We are less safe. Much less.
Nationalists like Putin are strong, forceful and unrelenting. Nothing will stop Putin from doing what he thinks is best for his country. And he proves it every day. Not by silly shit like an ISIS body count a la Vietnam, but by standing up with his allies in Syria, Iraq, and Iran and saying clearly to those threatening Russian interests in the Middle East that “you will have to deal with me, and I have a proven track record that I am a man not to be trifled with.”
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I think this thread will be of interest to those reading Craig’s article and commenting here:
http://thesaker.is/open-tread-to-discuss-shoot-down-of-russian-su-24-near-the-turkish-border/
[mods: retrieved from spam]
Sorry if this appears twice: the first time it didn’t appear among the comments.
Readers of this article and comments thread may find the following thread of interest:
http://thesaker.is/open-tread-to-discuss-shoot-down-of-russian-su-24-near-the-turkish-border/
This is a useful link. It reminds us that the term “Turkmen” is elastic when used by the Turkish government, it may very well refer to Uighurs or Uzbeks who share Uzbek in the UK’s politics.
and the link is:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-two-versions-of-the-latakia-plane-incident.html
Don’t see anything about Nato being involved, as I cannot believe that Turkey would have done this without Brussel’s approval beforehand.
Apparently, it is doing this sin ce Putin quietly covered up its crashing the Metrojet passenger plane.
This time there will be serious consequences, like the sinking of a Nato submarine, like a French or British one.
This shooting is like the one which started WWI.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/UN-protests-Israels-violation-of-Lebanon-airspace-312397
Well if this is to be the new international order and violation of sovereign airspace as a reason to shoot down a plane is now acceptable , I suppose Russia could supply the necessary weaponry to their fellow allies in Syria , Hezbollah to stop other violations in the region .
Nuclear was dumped on Scotland without permission. It does not have to go on the Clyde. They were going to be dumped Fort William but the Americans wanted them to be dumped at Faslane near Glasgow. The Tories didn’t want them near London. McMillian was paranoid and was suffering from mental health issues.
The Tories are deluded spending £170Billion on nuclear. They had better find somewhere else to out them. They are dumping unsafe nuclear waste in Africa.
“There is not going to be a Russian-Turkish military conflict, never mind a wider one. But prudence is essential.”
______________________
Habb, if history has anything to tell us (even though we tend not to take heed our past mistakes) is that Russia and Turkey, have had many wars in the past, another one isn’t so unlikely.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars
Still I tend to agree with you that no open full scale conflict between Russia and Turkey will arise.
Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplices
The Russian President making a statement on the Russian Su-24 warplane recently downed over Syria after meeting with Jordan’s King Abdullah in Moscow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s