This is the official Turkish radar track of the Russian aircraft they shot down, in red. It briefly transited a tiny neck of Turkish land – less than two miles across where the Russian jet passed – twice. I calculate that each “incursion” over Turkish territory would have lasted about 10 seconds, assuming the plane was flying slowly at 600mph. That Turkey shot down the plane for this is madness, and absolutely indefensible. It is fairly obvious from the track that the plane was operating against Turkish sponsored Turkmen rebels inside Syria, and that is why the Turks shot it down.
But the inescapable conclusion is that the true madness would be for the UK to get involved in Syria and make a complex and volatile situation still worse, and risk being dragged into wider conflict.
A reaction from an American writer who founded This Can’t Be Happening.
http://thiscantbehappening.net/
November 24, 2015
An Invisible US Hand Leading to War? Turkey’s Downing of a Russian Jet was an Act of Madness
In considering the terrifying but also sadly predictable news of a Russian fighter jet being downed by two Turkish fighters, let’s start with one almost certain assumption — an assumption that no doubt is also being made by the Russian government: Turkey’s action, using US-supplied F-16 planes, was taken with the full knowledge and advance support of the US. In fact, given Turkey’s vassal status as a member of US-dominated NATO, it could well be that Ankara was put up to this act of brinksmanship by the US.
What makes the downing of the Russian jet, and the reported death of at least one of its two pilots (the other was reportedly captured alive by pro-turkish Turkmen fighters on the Syrian side of the Syria-Turkish border, and will presumably be returned to Russia) so dangerous is that as a member of NATO, supposedly a “mutual assistance” treaty that binds all members to come to the defense of one that is attacked, if Russia were to retaliate by downing a Turkish military plane, NATO countries including the US would be obligated to come to Turkey’s defense.
Russia knows this, and that is why so far the Russian response to the downing has been muted. Had it been a Jordanian, Saudi or Kuwaiti jet that downed the Russian SU-24, Russia’s response would have been instantaneous. The guilty party would have had some of its planes shot down, or perhaps even bombed on the ground. But President Putin so far has limited himself to demanding a meeting, to warning that Russian-Turkish economic relations would be threatened, etc.
/..
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/24/an-invisible-us-hand-leading-to-war-turkeys-downing-of-a-russian-jet-was-an-act-of-madness/
About the website
http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/13
How strange that such an incident should happen so soon after Russia identified Turkey (and Erdogans son specifically) as being involved in the purchasing of discounted oil supplied to them by ISIS.
Almost equally strange that the British (allied with Turkey via NATO) seem not to appreciate the consequences of being allied with a financial sponsor of terrorism.
“Better a terrorist than a Russian” would appear to be the mantra of some. When you strip away all the misdirection and the dissembling it is certainly the policy.
If Russia responds by cutting energy supplies to Turkey then that should encourage mnore “refugees” to come in search of warm western European firesides. Should go down a storm with all those who think more diversity is the answer.
If Russia cuts off Oil & Gas to Europe, Europe will starve.
“Not guilty, m’Lud – go back and check.
But I would agree, actually – to say that climate change gave rise to the events in Syria sounds lunatic to me.
But, hey, it’s a free country, so do keep believing it if you wish.”
_________
Yeah it was you alright I should’ve made it clear it was on a previous thread I can’t be arsed looking for it.
Good find, Mary.
“Putin’s options are actually quite broad, though some carry considerably more risk for everyone, not just for Russia and Turkey. He could have his own air force in Syria, where Russia is legally acting at the request of the Syrian government to defend it against rebel forces of ISIS and Al Nusra, some of which are backed by both Turkey and the US, calmly wait for a Turkish military jet to cross into Syrian airspace. At that point it could be downed by Russian planes or missiles. No doubt Turkey will be extraordinarily careful going forward to have its pilots keep well away from Syrian air space too avoid that, but it could happen. My guess is that Russian fighter pilots and anti-aircraft batteries in Syria already have their marching orders to take that action, which probably would not activate NATO confrontation with Russia and lead to World War III, as long as there was reasonable evidence that Turkey’s plane was in Syrian airspace.”
I think Putin will lie in wait for his response. He’ll draw the Turks into Syrian airspace giving both Putin and NATO an out in regard to activating NATO response.
It is very important to stick to the guide lines regarding other peoples exclusion zones and to stay outside them I mean look what happened to the Belgrano ?
RoS, you’re assuming it’s always the same Resident Inquisitor, when there is good reason for suspecting that more than one person uses that handle. And this failure of memory is another such reason.
And the other ones can’t be bothered looking up what their namesakes may have said.
Loony; another good point.
Russia has been quite effective against ISIS mainly by cutting off their income. Wasn’t it yesterday Putin torched 100 ISIS oil tankers before they reached market?
N_
You asked what Uzbek meant by “MWF” when he wrote:
“I forgot. MWF are only concerned with civilians killed by western coalition and give no sh.t about those killed by Russia. Because Russia is good just because it is not west. Interesting and twisted hypocrisy indeed.”
___________________
In which he is absolutely right, but I believe he meant to type “MWL” = Mad Western Lefties.
In other words, little shits like you.
And you’re a real hardcore anti-Semite as well aren’t you?
Why is troll comprehension a bridge too far? We keep telling them Arabs are semitic as well as Jews.
Anti-arab = anti-semitic. It’s not as difficult to comprehend as eugenics.
RoS
“Yeah it was you alright I should’ve made it clear it was on a previous thread I can’t be arsed looking for it.”
It was me actually.
And yes, it is lunacy to argue that ISIS is caused by climate change.
Mahmut Tanal, a lawmaker from the opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP), told The Daily Beast he was trying to get an official government comment on reports saying that ISIS was exporting up to 4,000 tons of fuel to Turkey every day and earning $15 million every month from the trade. “I am expecting some answers here,” he said.
In a formal question to the government that he tabled in parliament, Tanal has asked Interior Minister Efkan Ala about the dimension of the illegal trade. He also asked the government to comment on unverified reports that ISIS has begun to threaten local officials on the Turkish side of the border, warning them not to try to stem the flow of smuggled goods from Syria. Ala has yet to answer.
The ISIS fuel comes from Syrian oil fields near the militia’s powerbase in Raqqa and is transported in trucks to the region bordering Turkey. The fuel is then brought into the country in plastic barrels or by pipelines.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/08/is-nato-ally-turkey-tacitly-fueling-the-isis-war-machine.html
Anti-Semitic means anti-Jew, Ben.
If you hadn’t torn out the relevant page in your dictionary to make yet another spliff you would know that.
Hasbara dictionary is not inclusive. Get Webster’s
Sky News explain.
http://news.sky.com/video/1593425/russia-jet-radar-track-released
That tiny slice of border was an excuse to inflame NATO protocols. Hey! Russia stepped on the Turkey’s foot.
“RoS, you’re assuming it’s always the same Resident Inquisitor, when there is good reason for suspecting that more than one person uses that handle. And this failure of memory is another such reason.
And the other ones can’t be bothered looking up what their namesakes may have said.
____________
Thanks Lysais you make a good point.
I do however owe Habb an apology I do apologise, old boy.
Anon1 now that you mention it, it was you, so you’re quite happy to contradict old FA cup ears HRH Prince Charles, oh my, no Christmas bonus for you at Hermitage then.
What I find illuminating about these events is the video available on Youtube of the downing of the Russian jet and the events following it.
Lots of chanting of “Allahu Akbar!”
Which for me sums up what, and who, is going on in Syria.
Firstly; the “Moderate” Syrian opposition is not some sort of cuddly Syrian version of a romantic rebel that you can turn into an iconic T-Shirt print.
These are nasty people and the UK Government wanted to be their ally! To support them!
“God is Great” indeed, if you’re a “Moderate” Syrian rebel. *Sarcasm for those who may miss the subtlety*
The Turkish Government also has an Islamic agenda, which makes the UK’s potential involvement incredibly dangerous.
Personally, I believe that the Middle East is a complete lost cause. The solution is to build a virtual wall around the entire Islamic world and to hugely restrict the relationship that the West has with it. The West should isolate itself. I arrive at this conclusion by coming from an atheist view point.
Can you imagine if you got the Saudi’s and Iran in a room to negotiate? What would be the content? Shouted statements of “Ours is the true faith!” from both sides. There would be no sane outcome.
Abandon them and turn away. It’s totally hopeless to think that a rational set of decisions would be the outcome.
Once they have finished killing each other and the threat level is lowered…or
we wait several hundred years for them to embrace modernity, then we can think about renewing the relationship.
I don’t really have religious bias against muslims any more than I do christians, but agnostic ‘cuz I don’t know.
I do know incorrigibles need to be kept away from polite society and Geo Carlin puts his tongue in his cheek for a hilarious solution for blood-drinking Jihadists or blood-thirsty Zionist child-murderers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq9ZoGihurY
President Putin: By Shooting Down Our Fighter Jet Turkey Practically Declared War on Russia, Turkish Dictator Erdoğan Is an Accomplice in ISIS Crimes:
“…Today they practically declared war on us by shooting down our fighter jet. Our patience wears thin with Erdoğan and his criminal clique who is accomplice in all atrocities committed by ISIS terrorist. To avoid a bitter war which nobody craves, for several times, I told Americans to muzzle their rabid dog in Turkey,” Russian News Agency TASS cited the Russian President as saying.
“I was informed that Turks have shot down a Russian aircraft on the border with Syria and reportedly the navigator has been killed; my deepest condolences to his family and the Great Russian nation,” said Mr. Putin vowing that the ‘revenge’ is what the Turkish dictator will receive in return.
We are indeed on the verge of an all-out war with the godfather of all terrorists in one of the extremely volatile areas in the world, added Mr. Putin, we worked diligently to solve the Syrian crisis through diplomatic means, but much to the international community’s chagrin, the Turkish AK Parti-led regime under Erdoğan seeks to ignite the fires of war.
http://www.awdnews.com/top-news/president-putin-by-shooting-down-our-fighter-jet-turkey-practically-declared-war-on-russia,-turkish-dictator-erdoğan-is-an-accomplice-in-isis-crimes
It’s clear who the Russians are fighting, so Turkey’s deliberate destruction of a Russia plane makes it it clear which side is supported by the Turks, their NATO allies, Habbabbaupchuck and Craig Murray.
Erdogan just won a election with a slightly increased outright majority. After scaring the Electorate. .
GG
They tend to shout “Allahu Akbar!” even when their mates are being blown to bits.
Were we to turn our backs on the Middle East it would still be the same backward hole as before, as long as they cling to their death cult.
It might even teach a few of the “It’s all the fault of the West” types here a lesson.
The SNP voted at Westminster today to scrap Tridents renewal, unfortunately they were out voted.
Jeremy Corbyn apparently sent word (as he didn’t bother to attend personally even though CND is close to his heart) that Labour should abstain.
The majority duely did and the SNP lost by a substantial margin. The Labour party in my opinion are a unmitigated disaster, they can only agree to disagree, and even then they can’t agree on that.
I called the Islamic Samaritans today. When I told them I felt suicidal, they got all excited and asked if I wanted a pilots licence.
Mark; Putin showing restraint. But the rhetoric is not hollow and he surely wants revenge. Do you see Edrogan being drawn into Syrian airspace. I hope he is smarter than that.
Even their ‘humor’ is sodden and despicable.
“They tend to shout “Allahu Akbar!” even when their mates are being blown to bits.
Were we to turn our backs on the Middle East it would still be the same backward hole as before, as long as they cling to their death cult.
It might even teach a few of the “It’s all the fault of the West” types here a lesson.”
_________________
If you’re lot were to turn their back on the Middle East your beloved Israel would be no more, would that be such a big loss (one shit stirrer less) I think not.
But reading your almost Islamaphobic comment, I realise why lickspittles like you bitch some much about how good Israel is, even when it isn’t.
“I called the Islamic Samaritans today. When I told them I felt suicidal, they got all excited and asked if I wanted a pilots licence.”
_________________
Funny you should mention that, my neighbour called the Jewish Samaritans yesterday, he too said he felt suicidal, they said to him, go blow up some building, when he said he couldn’t they said nevermind you can always run over some Palestinians with a bulldozer.
Bunny La Roche (Anon1) is a sicko just like the other troll. That comment about the Samaritans (a feeble attempt at a joke presumably) was out of order. Suicide is not a subject for humour. My late husband, bless him, was a Samaritan.
http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/bunny-la-roche-question-time.jpg Anon1 uses her photo which is odd as Bunny is a member of the Socialist Workers’ Party. Anon1 most definitely is not.