I think you can measure the death of democracy by the sheer audacity of the propaganda that government can get away with. Michael Fallon today on the Marr programme churned out the “70,000 moderate rebels” lie with a smooth bland face, and mentioned only the Free Syrian Army when pressed on who they were exactly. This is dishonesty on an epic scale.
But the really breathtaking one was to follow. Fallon claimed that the UK had killed hundreds of ISIL militants by bombing in Iraq and caused not one single civilian casualty. This risible claim had appeared in the Daily Mail last week, which is to be expected. But that a government minister can state such an absolutely ludicrous lie before a major BBC journalist without being seriously pushed on the matter, really does say a great deal about what kind of “democracy” the UK now is.
As does the fact that a substantial number of MPs of the official “opposition” have spent the weekend actively colluding with government ministers to forward the government’s militarist agenda.
I am proud to say that Scotland seems largely immune from the prevalent jingoism. The idea that bombing Raqqa will prevent terrorist attacks in Europe is plainly so nonsensical, that it is hard to know whether people like Fallon have actually managed to convince themselves of it or not. What this all will do, of course, is reinforce the military/security state that the UK has become.
I have no doubt that the Iraq War was one factor in making the people of Scotland realise that the UK is not an entity that matches their aspirations for the way a state should behave. Splitting the UK is a process. This incomprehensible Westminster bloodlust for bombing will drive the division wider. As will the whole ambience of the Etonian government and the peculiar social behaviour of its inner group, as even our coy media is hinting at in its coverage of the Shapps/Clarke group.
I can sense Independence coming close with every new morning.
Bevin @ 3.08 Good post!
World Battleground, 1000 years of war in 5 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsDn2kNriI
If Assad and Putin want to bring Cameron down a peg or two and deliver a massive humiliation from which he might never recover, they could do worse than to announce the commencement of the ground war and the no-fly zone a couple of days before any parliamentary vote on air-strikes.
” I don’t recall any Islamic country intervening in the Reformation, nor the War of the Roses, nor the wars of Scottish independence, so why are we poking our nose into their problems. ”
Stupid comparison. For one thing none of these events represented any threat to Islam. This blog expresses much fury at the civilian casualties of NATO bombing but never any mention of the tens of thousands murdered by Daesh (nor those killed by Russian air strikes for that matter which have included cluster bombs). Daesh is a perverse millennialist cult who believe the world is about to end and that they must remove all traces of anybody and anything non-islamic before it happens. It’s not a matter of if we go to war with Daesh but when. No, bombing alone won’t resolve the problem. There have to be boots on the ground but after Afghanistan and Iraq it’s unlikely those boots will be American or European. I’d be surprised if Putin is daft enough to throw his half-trained conscripts into the cauldron either. However if there’s a concept more naive it’s that if we leave them alone they’ll be nice people and leave us alone too. It hasn’t protected the victims of Daesh so far nor those of Boko Haram or Al Shabaab.
Phil – If you were an ordinary civilian in Raqqa, with a wife and kids, what would you do if the bombing increased? Might you try to get out? Where might you head for? Europe possibly?
Nobody seems to state the blindingly obvious that bombing will increase the number of refugees. Besides killing the innocent, or making their lives hell, and increasing recruits to Da’esh.
You seem to be of the persuasion that ‘Something must be done, bombing is something, so we must bomb’. But bombing is worse than doing nothing. In fact there is plenty we can do in terms of cutting off supplies to Da’esh, which is what the Russians, but not the US or the UK have been trying to do.
Has any country ever gone in to a war with such lack of clarity as to who its allies are and who its enemies are?
“There have to be boots on the ground but after Afghanistan and Iraq it’s unlikely those boots will be American or European”
True, they’re likely to be Syrian, Iranian, Lebanese and Chinese. Notwithstanding the terms of the recent UN resolution, US and Europe may decline the invitation to contribute.
Fredi. This Land is Mine. World Battleground, 10000 years of War in 5 minutes.
In a nutshell!!!
Thanks.
What a brave people, no police to worry about they stormed the building with 1500 people, some wanted to expose thos stasi robotnics and snoops, but some had other ideas, they had prior knowledge as to the location of certain files, so they could be spirited away to the next vault/oven.
Eine sanfte linke action die man mit einer aktion hgegen ISIS ueberhaupt nicht vergleichen kann.
A soft left action you cannot possibly compare to any resolve against ISIS.
NOTHING like a ceasefire would really hurt ISIS, their backers could not possibly allow them to carry on fighting, or would they?
How many German weapons end up in Isis hands smuggled over the border?
Do our Stasi hunters have any idea?
the Turkish infantry is armed with Heckler & Koch G3, they bought 297 leopard 1 and 2 tanks, Germany is in effect one of the greatest arms suppliers to Turkeys requirements.
That has to stop if they are collaborating with ISIS, does it not?
This economic downturn has meant downsized enemies too!!!
In the old days it was Saddam and his weapons of mass destruction and the end of the world as we know it!!! These days it is a bunch of shitty arse convicts and mercenaries high on Captagon and a CIA dropped M16 and couple of tow missiles as well as the mandatory Toyota bought and paid for by the pederasts of the Arabian peninsula that are coming to destroy us all, and good folk best lock up you your sons and daughters!!!!!
Even though these new super enemies are not a coherent and organised force, the zionist vermin are busy spewing the Oligarch Owned Media propaganda of the end of the world in the hands of these rag tag bunch of angry, unemployed, high on Captagon convicts and mercenaries in the guise of Daesh that are bought and paid for by those nice chaps residing in Langley!!!!
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/29/scotland-train-syrian-female-peacemakers-conflict-resolution
I’m not to sure exactly how to interpret this story . The photo accompanying the story has the women holding signs saying ‘ No Terrorism ‘ . But whose ‘ terrorism ‘ are they referring to . Non-States , States , or both ?
Bombing will only make matters worse, though the West should not immediately withdraw which is almost equally bad. Meanwhile, the West should rebuild what it has wrought.
It should agree with Russia in adopting a ceasefire, and putting together a conference to establish a new constitution and government while Assad is still in power, and even lead the new government if he amasses the necessary votes.
The West has been trying fruitlessly to remake the Middle East to suit its crusading spirit, and should just recognize it’s a vast failure.
Rep. Ron Paul on the April Glaspie cable. Lest we forget!
http://fas.org/sgp/congress/2011/paul012611.html
“Stupid comparison. For one thing none of these events represented any threat to Islam”
____________________
No they didn’t represent a threat to Islam, Islam has gotten by just fine since the 7th Cent, without our interference bar, the 9 crusades by Europeans. You don’t see the Muslims invading European countries, under the guise of stamping out Fascism etc.
We’ve caused so much unrest in the Middle East that millions are fleeing to Europe.
My point is Islam hasn’t impinged on our way of life over the centuries, it has been the Europeans and of late, the Americans who’ve caused the unrest, by asset stripping their countries.
For you to the say Islam is a threat to the West when we’re the ones that have caused the situation is well, your usual hypocrisy.
As for Muslims fighting amongst themselves, it cannot be helped Sunni and Shia don’t see eye to eye.
It would’ve been more fitting if the den of iniquity aka Westminster had concentrated on resolving problems nearer to home such as NI, get your own house in order before you start swanning off.
It’s a pity that there is a USUKIsNATO stooge at the UN. This is ‘if pigs could fly’.
‘A ceasefire in Syria could be possible within six months with elections following a year later, UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon told FRANCE 24 in an exclusive interview Saturday, though he admits such a goal is a tall order for the war-torn country.
“The first priority is to have a nationwide ceasefire within six months and within 18 months have an election,” Ban told this week’s edition of The Interview.
“Of course this road map may be very ambitious and it’s a very tight schedule. That is why my special envoy, Staffan de Mistura, has been and is still continuing to work very closely with the countries concerned.”
Some of the key international players in the Syria conflict, including the US, Russia, Turkey and Iran have been meeting for talks on resolving the country’s civil war in Vienna.’
http://www.france24.com/en/f24-interview/20151128-exclusive-ban-ki-moon-says-syria-ceasefire-possible-6-months
We were almost conned into bombing assad to help those (moderates) who gassed 1400 (including 400 children) at al-Ghouta using sarin, just 3km from newly arrived UN Inspectors in Damascus? Only CM stepped in with his Trodos post and rifkind was left mumbling about YouTube evidence and fake 8200 intercepts on the floor of the Commons.
Now we are being urged in equally strong yiddish, right across the MSM to agree to the OPPOSITE, to bomb the “moderates” and thereby help assad? Its the Rev 2:9 mob all right, once again the devils want to remind us of the famous Chinese restaurant in lower Manhattan, the Sum Dum Goy !!
They want to spend £2 billion carrying out another 9 month bombing campaign like in Libya whilst there are disabled and sick dying due to an underfunded NHS. There must be vast oil in the Golan if murdoch has a share in the claim too.
Murdoch’s agenda – https://www.facebook.com/fightpropagandauk/photos/a.1068309079845952.1073741828.1068231049853755/1102173613126165/?type=3&theater
S. Jackson, there’s a few interesting characters involved with Genie Oil, including Dick Cheney and Jacob Rothschild.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_Energy
IM BACK!!!!!!!!
In my view there are two problems if you like, one being ISIS, the other being the multitude of problems that led to ISIS (many of which have been said on here). The 2 schools of thought seem to be we either tackle ISIS or tackle the things that created ISIS. I feel we need a mixture of both. You need to kill the weed before it spreads whilst removing the conditions that helped it grow. Now doing this you may unfortunately destroy some surrounding plant life, but is it better than leaving the weed to grow and destroy all plant life (sorry for the extended metaphor BTW).
Essential reading, in case you missed it previously – Seymour Hersh
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
Extended or not, over-extended I would say, it’s still utter crap.
As you’re back ‘Phil’ perhaps you could consider the points I made at 2:17pm, particularly about the kick you get from, even from contemplating killing?
Thank you S Jackson. A brilliant page. I see no mention of his Sky News prop though which is just as insidious especially in their ‘newspaper reviews’ where opportunity is given to rehash all the output on ‘tomorrow’s front pages’. Same on the BBC News channels. Clever aren’t they!
https://www.facebook.com/fightpropagandauk?_rdr=p
Phil – people are not weeds or ‘plant life’, nor is the situation anything like your ‘metaphor’. ISIS cannot be dealt with by bombing. Bombing almost never solves any problems, it rather creates them.
Dealing with ISIS requires cutting off their resources – their backing from Turkey, Saudi, the US and others, and their ability to recruit.
Tony M (presumably M stands for moron), I don’t get a kick out of killing. I’ve never said that and i think its wrong to suggest people who support air strikes love the idea of death. I certainly don’t, i just think its not right to sit here doing nothing. In a perfect world we would have a number of talks with ISIS and all parties in Syria for a peaceful end to conflict. However we don’t live in a perfect world and for me it wouldn’t work.
I would like to reiterate that i never said bombing ISIS would solve the problem, i merely believe it to be part of the solution.
About another country, Yemen, where people are being killed, shredded and burned by bombs being sent down by another ‘coalition’.
‘Bombing Yemen, Munitions Sales to Saudi Arabia
Britain’s Robust Arms Export Control Regime
by Felicity Arbuthnot / November 29th, 2015
As Prime Minister David Cameron attempts to persuade Parliament to back another illegal assault on a country posing no threat to the UK, Syria, it transpires that Britain may face war crimes charges anyway for arms sales to Saudi Arabia, arms being used to decimate civilians and civilian infrastructure in Yemen.
“Advisers to Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, have stepped up legal warnings that the sale of specialist missiles to the Saudis, deployed throughout nine months of almost daily bombing raids in west Yemen … may breach international humanitarian law”, states a report in the Independent.’
[..]
‘Last July a transfer of Paveway IV missiles was authorized from the (Royal Air Force) to Saudi Arabia, boosting the order book of arms manufacturer Raytheon UK.
The near £200 million contract “secured the supply of hundreds of the air-launched missiles to the Saudi air force over the next two years.” The Raytheon bombs will be dropped on Yemen by Typhoon and Tornado fighter jets, supplied by Britain’s BAE Systems.
“The (contract) ensured that the Saudi arsenal, depleted through multiple daily bombing raids on Yemen over the past nine months, would not be exhausted.” So much for humanitarian laws.’
http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/11/bombing-yemen-munitions-sales-to-saudi-arabia/
Putin will not abandon Syria to a regime change brought about by the West using Saudi and Qatar money and Turkish logistics, Putin knows Iran, Lebanon and Russia/China would be next. He has drawn a line in the sand, In August he summoned the Turkish Ambassador and, “According to The leaked information obtained by The Moscow Times, the meeting between the Mr.Purin and Turkish ambassador was imbued with intense mutual resentment where Mr. Yardim has repudiated all Russian accusations, laying blame on Russia for Syria’s bitter and protracted civil war. “..then tell your dictator president he can go to hell along with his ISIS terrorist and I shall make Syria to nothing but a ‘Big Stalingrad’ , for Erdoğan and his Saudi allies are no vicious than Adolf Hitler,” replied Vladimir Putin in the 2-hour closed door meeting with Turkish emissary.
How hypocrite is your president as he advocates democracy and lambaste the military coup d’état in Egypt, added Mr. Putin, and he simultaneously condones all terrorist activities aimed to overthrow Syrian president! The Russian president continued by saying that his country won’t abandon Syrian legitimate administration and will cooperate with its allies ,namely Iran and China , to find a political solution to Syria’s interminable civil war which descended the 23-million Arab nation to an utter ethnic and religious” anarchy.http://awdnews.com/top-news/russian-president-to-turkish-ambassador-tell-your-dictator-president-he-can-go-to-hell-along-with-his-isis-terrorists,-i-will-make-syria-a-big-stalingrad-for-him
Being Mr. Angry, or being Mr. Don’t-know-what-to-do-but-feel-I-must-do-something is not a good enough excuse for slaughtering civilians and driving more into refugee boats.
Parliament waved through all Tony Blair’s Dodgy Dossiers to invade Iraq on false pretexts.
Two years ago Parliament wisely slung out David Cameron’s previous Dodgy Dossier to bomb Syria to punish Assad for Sarin planted by Turks http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/
Now we have another Dodgy Dossier with magic bombs which do not kill civilians and 70000 ‘nice’ moderate rebels who eat the heart of an opponent after killing them. Still we have no exit plan – just like Iraq and Libya.
Just how gullible are people supporting the drive to war?
Throwing article after article written by anti UN pacifists is hardly evidence. Its just people who’s views are the same as yours.