I was accused on Sky News of making comments attacking the Jewish tribe. Ripped from its context, the remark appeared so offensive I could not conceive I had ever made it. I find now that in fact I did say it, but in the context of a specific remark by an Israeli minister making a claim that the Israeli Prime Minister leads all Jews worldwide. My remark was part of a post attacking all racism. They could equally well have taken the quote “I wish nothing but good to all people, including all Jewish people” out of the post.
To be absolutely open, I repeat the post here:
Israeli economics minister Naftali Bennett has claimed of Binyamin Netanyahu that “The prime minister is not a private person but the leader of the Jewish state and the whole Jewish world.” Really? Netanyahu is the leader of all the Jews in London, or California, or Ethiopia, who may never have set foot in his state?
This extraordinary remark by Bennett lays bare the fundamental flaw in the very concept of Israel. It is not a modern state, defined as a territory and comprising all the various citizens of whatever descent who live within it. It is rather a vicious racist construct, defined absolutely by race, refusing territorial limits, and with an aggressive theocratic overlay that claims tribal superiority over the entire rest of the world.
Here is a picture of the New Zealand cricket team. In the last twelve months, New Zealand cricket teams have fielded payers including Hamish Rutherford, Peter Fulton, Colin Munro, Dean Brownlie, Ross Taylor, Rob Nicol, Corey Anderson, Grant Elliott, Jimmy Neesham, Kyle Mills, Adam Milne and Mark Craig, not to mention the McCullum brothers. But if I told you that Alex Salmond was the leader of all Scots around the world, including the Black Caps, you would quite rightly call me a nutter.
We would not tolerate the level of racism in any other country that we tolerate from Israel. There was a huge outcry against Labour MP Paul Flynn who dared question whether it was sensible to send a strongly professed Zionist Jew as British ambassador to Israel, but when the Israeli government itself proclaim the political leadership of all Jews all over the world, it is a logical impossibility not to ask the question.
I wish nothing but good to all people, including all Jewish people, but by their increasingly hardline racialist approach, their unceasing encroachment on Palestinian land and their rigorous adoption of all the racist mechanisms of an apartheid state internally, I fear that the window of opportunity for a peaceful future for those Jewish people living in what is currently Israel is closing fast.
It must be universally proclaimed: there is not a single racial group in the whole world from whom worldwide racial claims of political allegiance, or an internal racially based legislative order, are acceptable. Bennett’s remarks are beyond the limit of civilised political discourse.
Sign a petition calling on disciplinary procedures for John Mann MP for bringing the Labour Party into disrepute.
https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-disciplinary-procedure-for-john-mann-mp
JSD,
I have added my name to this list and posted via Facebook and Twitter. I wonder if RD will add his/her name to the calls for Mann to be disciplined – I doubt it though as he’d/she’d reveal who he/her is and we can’t have that can we!!!!!!
Thanks, Chris. Much obliged.
I wouldn’t add my name because I don’t think Mann should be disciplined – I also don’t think Green Party members should interfere in Labour Party affairs.
Is JSD a member of the Labour Party?
Yes, RD, I am.
Then please don’t encourage Green Party members to meddle in party affairs.
BTW where did you get the full transcript of the original Feltz interview of Livingstone – the Independent’s version is a full transcript despite claiming to be so.
RD,
You have no fucking idea which political party I may, or may not be a member of, as membership is annual old bean.
Further, fuckers like you, that is the Labour MP I voted for in 2015, no doubt will be looking for my vote come 2020, a vote he’s unlikely to get unless he begins showing some balls and actually representing his fucking constituents.
I have voted Labour, thus far, all my adult life, canvased for Labour in Pontypool/Torfaen, Leicester East and Leicester West, canvassed for Labour during Euro-Elections and canvassed for Labour in local elections. Your fucking Blairite scum destroyed my Party, that’s right, my fucking Party, the Party of the working man. Now fuck of you sanctimonious warmonger fucker and take your Blairite scum friends with you. You disgust me and many on the actual left like me, and not the faux-left ground you inhabit with all your Blair bullshite.
Nonsense – it’s a public petition, I’m doing nothing wrong by making people aware of it.
I don’t know if I have seen a full transcript. I was looking at the Guardian’s version.
That’s probably a good thing to put to John Mann.
Hasn’t he been encouraging non members of the party to meddle in Labour Party affairs.
Having media onhand to witness internal disputes.
He’s thick as shit, Mann, but that’s no excuse.
Alternatively you could sign the petition asking for John Mann to be applauded.
There’s a petition for just about everything now. ?
https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-mp-dont-suspend-john-mann-mp
Republicofscotland,
You have to be a Blairite, Zionist, Red Tory, Blue Labour or actual Tory to sign that particular petition – none of which faction I actually belong too. Indeed, I’m happy to call for Mann’s head on a plate, but then one is a little extreme in his political views.
Resident Dissident April 30, 2016 at 18:53
“I wouldn’t add my name because I don’t think Mann should be disciplined…”
……………………………..
No surprise there ResDis, you being a Zionist supporter.
………………………………
“I also don’t think Green Party members should interfere in Labour Party affairs.”
……………………………..
But it’s OK for the Tory party and the unelected Zionist Federation?
Why bother
Hasn’t he already been hauled in by Labour?
I think there may be grounds to expel him from the Labour party but I don’t know the rules.
I believe the incident with Livingstone should be independently investigated. Mann had a camera and sound crew in tow and Livingstone was being interviewed on BBC radio London at the exact time via his mobile. A film of the BBC radio London show studio showing the presenters reactions was on the internet, I watched it but it appears to have disappeared. Are radio shows usually filmed?
BBC have questions to answer as well I think.
One has to laugh – the petition refers to Mann’s toxic behaviour to a fellow respected MP – Livingstone hasn’t been a MP for nearly 15 years.
“I saw the darkness of antisemitism, but I never thought it would get this dark”
Nick Cohen now has a completely fabricated bullshit article in the Guardian.
They won’t allow comments because their bullshit would be exposed below the line in seconds with facts.
What a rag the Guardian is.
What this means is that you cannot cope with the arguments presented and so have decided to resort to abuse.
What it means is that The Guardian can’t cope with their garbage being torn to shreds.
Easy to do, since now they just make it up.
These people below have been doing sterling work showing The Guardian for the US trash rag it’s become:
https://off-guardian.org/2016/04/23/censored-on-cif-is-this-what-they-mean-by-abusive/
I believe even Craig has been censored many times.
@Herbie,
Bevin’s post on Off-Guardian is worth repeating here and i salute him for authoring such a succinct and cogent argument/analysis:
“Something very peculiar and rather sinister is happening at The Guardian.
“Comment Is Free” used to be a very important feature of the internet edition. And, potentially, a very valuable property. It attracted readers from around the world and acted as a forum for opinion that gave the Guardian enormous credibility. Unjustified credibility in many ways, because the ‘freedom’ apparent in CiF conveyed to the world the misleading idea that the paper itself maintained standards of fairness and open discussion, which it really did not.
For example, anyone reading The Guardian in 2003 was liable to get the impression that the great weight of public opinion-opposed to the attack on Iraq- had been taken into account by the editorial staff. And that the overwhelming support that The Guardian’s columnists and reporters gave to Blair and Bush, reflected some kind of judgement of the evidence adduced for war.
In fact The Guardian had issued marching orders that no employee interested in promotion or favour could ignore: where are those handful of writers who were proved to be right, clear headed and prophetic about Iraq? Were they promoted? Were those who got it ludicrously wrong penalised?
Not at all. The more idiotic the advocacy of Blairism the more rapid the promotion. The paper is run by people who represented a small minority of public opinion, as measured by CiF, in 2003. Small wonder that they hate it.
Still, CiF represented great value. At a time when the business was rapidly getting worse; when any sign of success ought to have been seized eagerly, a decision was obviously made to run the thing down and give up the benefits, in terms of potential profits and, more importantly perhaps, enhanced credibility at a time when a push for international readership was being made.
There are only two possible explanations for this. The first is that The Guardian is being tun by totally incompetent people who have no understanding of the potential that they are wasting. The second is that the paper is so integrated, financially and ideologically, into the state/deep state system that it now relies upon it for its financial survival.
My guess is that the latter is the case and that articles such as Viner’s and the faux controversy over abusive trolling are both intended to pave the way to shutting down CiF completely and replacing it with a ‘forum’ designed to guide opinion on paths plotted with the assistance of the vast amount of data that the Panopticon now affords social scientists employed to shore up a system spiralling towards catastrophe.”
Yup.
Bevin sure knows his stuff.
There are similar issues at work in The New Statesman.
Everyone’s an associate editor. Very American. All fluff.
Public discourse functions at quite a childish level these days.
You don’t have to be a celebrity to get censored by the Guardian. I myself was censored many times during the first indyref, without the usual public notification informing the community of such. No swearing, no abuse but no compromise from myself in shredding their BritNat propaganda. I stopped playing their game and contributed elsewhere.
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2015-03-03/hsbc-and-the-sham-of-guardians-scott-trust/
Cohen is a crude propagandist, he doesn’t do facts, he a professional liar, I guess the money is good.
Yawn – not as crude as you mate – at least he tries to make an argument rather than resorting to abuse.
Having looked at the Cohen article, I can immediately see three serious objections to it which I do not even need to research.
Cohen says historians need to explain that AH was not a Zionist. False. Livingstone never said he was.
Cohen quotes Aisha Ali-Khan to discredit Galloway. He does not mention that Ali-Khan has faced more than one criminal charge including breach of confidentiality and that her credibility is thereby damaged.
Cohen refers back to his own article referring to “Jew-baiters at the Oxford University Labour Club”, which includes an appalling smear against James Elliott, as I have noted on here before.
I don’t know if I would bother to point these things out on the Guardian’s comments, but apparently I am not allowed to do so in any case.
Yep, only takes a quick skim of the article to find the bullshit and lies. In minutes of comments opening posts like yours would appear,…. And be deleted , for pointing out Cohen’s lies.
Andy,
All articles now supportive of the ‘anti-semitism’ supposed crisis allegedly tearing the Labour Party apart are now closed to any reader feedback whatsoever. But hey, Comment Is Free in The Guardian as long as it tows the Establishment line, in all other cases, our opinion is not necessary lest it get in the way of the propaganda. What a travesty!!!!!!!
JSD,
The Zionist/Anti-Corbyn Cabal at The Guardian is well known to us longtime readers of this once valuable UK media outlet, it would seem the rot truly set in with the appointment of Rushbridger as Editor after Peter Preston, a time that coincided with Blair’s ascendency. My God sir not only have the Blairites destroyed the Labour Movement, but they have destroyed The Guardian as well. No doubt Mrs. Thatcher will salute them from her berth in hell, but I just mourn the loss both of my beloved Labour Movement and a newspaper that once I used to be able to identify with.
Whilst under Corbyn’s leadership hope exists for the Labour Movement, I’m afraid to say that none exists for The Guardian – it really should be put out of its misery and perhaps some other Journalists and financial backers can relaunch The Manchester Guardian with its HQ outside of the London bubble.
I never read the Guardian at all until I began to read this blog. I have been less than impressed with what I have seen of it since. And I have contempt for Cohen, who is a fabricator and propagandist of startling proportions. How he gets away with his monumental nonsense and still keeps his doubtless extremely well-paid job is beyond me.
JSD,
The worst thing is about this ‘anti-semitism’ smear being hurled at the Labour Movement is the fact that several of the newspapers leading the charge, among them the Daily ToryGraph and Daily Hate, were among the UK Establishment forces after the first quarter of 1933 who cheered on Hitler, and continued cheering him on right up to the eve of the Second World War. And they have the fucking temerity to label the UK Labour Movement as suffering a crisis of biblical proportions of anti-semitism – which in itself is utter bollocks. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a Corbyn witch hunt, which is what this is all about. Again, Mann needs expelling from the Labour Party, as do the other Blairites incapable of accepting the democratic mandate of the majority of the Party membership.
There is no bloody ‘anti-semitism’ crisis within the Labour Movement, there is however a knowledge, and growing one at that, about Israeli aggression towards Palestinians in the disputed territories that were once their homeland, and which terrorists ejected them from in the period late 1945-1947. Further, and given we had relatives undertaking national service in the region, may I remind the apologists about the King David Hotel bombing, by Terrorists in July 1946. But alas we are instructed that Israel was not founded on Terror and Terrorism. Obviously, and like Ken Livingston, I no doubt am an ‘anti-semite’ for pointing out these historical realities, realities the Zionists and their supporters paper over, ignore or just hurl abuse at us.
By the way my own father served in Cyprus during the civil war during his own National Service, luckily he never shot anyone in anger, well apart from a pair of Pyjamas!!!!
Andy,
Both you and I are aware of The Guardian’s agenda, which is to undermine the democratically elected Leader of the Labour Movement at every stage. Despite a change of leader, much of the Institution itself remains in the hands of the Blairite faction and the Thirdly faux Labour Party administration.
Lets face it, the Blairites were destroyed by the voting membership and adherents to the actual Labour Movement during last years post-election leadership vote. Like RD on these boards, they are unwilling to accept this democratic vote, however, as indicated previously, come May/June 2020 the buggers will be chasing our votes so as to maintain their place at the pigs trough, whilst many of their constituents are forced to visit food banks.
Still, the likes of RD are happy at this state of affairs. Alas, I am not and look forward to Mr. Corbyn transforming the Party via democratic means from the Blaire Tory aping machine it became.
Of course the Blairites would rather destroy the party than let Coryn get anywhere near No. 10. And the Guardian is a Blairite rag.
Fascinating to see they’ve shut down comments . They claim that they are blocking the hateful abusive posts but it’s the truth they have to suppress.
I hope Labour members are aware of what is going on and these accusations of antisemitism are an attempt to oust Corbyn.
Craig, after discussions with people on this blog over the past 24 hour I realize that you and most of the people here are not anti-semitic, you are merely ignorant. I don’t mean that to be offensive. I mean ignorant, not stupid.
Ignorant of Jewish history in Palestine, ignorant of what Zionism is and how deep and ancient it is, ignorant of the Arab-Jewish conflict and ignorant of how peace might be achieved.
I don’t blame anyone here for their ignorance, I too am ignorant of British politics, of how it feels to be British, to receive British government services, to be part of British society, to be a minority in Britain, to be a woman in Britain, to be gay in Britain, to be sick in Britain. All these things I am ignorant about. Because i don’t live there.
I’m therefore careful about how I judge and criticize Britain.
Good day.
Israel – I don’t think the problem is one of ignorance but a closed mindset and as a consequence an ability to absorb and assimilate new information. You clearly distinguished your views from those of people like Netanyahu and showed sympathy for the plight of many Palestinians but was any of that acknowledged. Please don’t give up your views are very much appreciated by some here.
Thank you RD!
I agree.
The difference with Britain though, as it’s a modern state, is that it mostly abides by international law and aggreements, or at least makes a pretty good pretence of doing so.
Israel, on the other hand, simply tells critics to “fuck off” and abuses them with false allegations of antisemitism.
In addition Its lobbying in the US, UK and France is openly detrimental to the internal politics of these states, and undermining of rational discourse, turning them backwards in time.
Surely that’s obvious to all now.
Zionism isn’t deep and ancient .
The concept of a nation state is relatively recent invention.
Stop the World Andy would like to get off.
You aren’t very well read are you.
Better than you would be my guess
“The Palestinians could have a state tomorrow.”
__________________
Well Andy I’m curious as to how your above comment to me, could be implimented tomorrow, I’m all ears.
This ought to be good (says I rubbing my hands together).
The US would only have to recognise Palestinian as an independent state and tomorrow there would be a Palestine.
The whole world apart from the US, Isreal and a couple of South Peacific island states refuse allow the creation of a Palestinin state.
Andy.
So according to you, if the US backed it, 24 hours is all we’d need to see a two state solution.
By your thinking imagine what could be accomplished in a week.
@Republicofscotland
Of course there could be a Palestinian state tomorrow.
Pres. Truman recognised Israel in 1948. Though Israel wasn’t in law a state until Jan ’49.
Every country in the world recognises Palestine. Only the US is blocking the right of Palestinian self determination.
There is a Palestinian state now, according to the United Nations, as far as I am aware. Could we be clearer about what is actually wanted?
You just need two things to be a state, a government recognised by other governments and a defined territory with fixed borders.
@Israel
I don’t think people want to be anti-Semitic, I myself want to see Israelis as individual people with individual qualities. I tried to get you to see Palestinians as individual people each with human needs and rights but you insisted on seeing them and demonising them as a group and as a group you saw them as inferior and with fewer rights than the Israeli.
In short, you gave me the impression you are all the things you accuse others of and I don’t need to live in Israel to be able to see that.
Fred, as an individual I might be a nice guy you might want to have a beer with and if I needed help you might offer your assistance. As a group I belong to a different nationality and if I lose my job I probably won’t get far in trying to claim unemployment in the UK. Unemployment in the UK is only for UK citizens.
I accept that its not because UK citizens are superior, it’s the way the world works.
The Israel-Palestine conflict is between two groups, two peoples.
As a Palestinian (sub-) citizen of Israel, there’s quite a lot you wouldn’t be entitled to in the country of your birth, Israel. That’s the way Israel works (and, for all I know, N.Korea), if not quite the world. Is it, in your considered opinion, the way it ought to work?
https://electronicintifada.net/content/status-palestinian-citizens-israel/341
This is by Pax Christi, btw. EI is just the vehicle. And it’s in 2004. Not much movement since, then, and I see Area C is up for ethnic cleansing now.
@Israel
Human rights are individual not collective. The right to self determination is a individual right not a collective right, the right of a refugee to return to the land owned or lived in by them or their families is an individual right not a collective right.
Someone who is Jewish born anywhere in the world can apply for Israeli citizenship and go to Israel but a Palestinian is refused the right to return to the land he and his forefathers rightfully owned.
Israel.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
As for Zionism, being ancient, unless I’m ignorant of the fact, (and that is possible), isn’t Theodore Herzel, thought to be the founder of Zionism, circa the 19th century?
Hertzel wrote about the possible solution to a nation state in his book, “Der Judenstaat.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Judenstaat
And to add to my possible ignorance, Zionism was largely a creation by atheistic Jews, who’s theory was that Jews, were not a religious group, but a nation.
They argued that anti-Semitism was largely endemic in Europe, and that plagued by pogroms, a nation state removed from Europe was the only answer.
Feel free Israel to correct me if I’m wrong . ?
@Republicofscotland, the Jews are indeed a people with a faith rather than a religious group. Jewish atheists (such as I) comfortably identify as Jews.
As for Zionism, see my comment below.
The Zionist Movement was a modern political organization with an objective to fulfill the ancient Zionist ambition.
The term is borrowed from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_Zion
Over the past millenia thousands of Jews immigrated to the Land of Israel under extreme risk to their lives. It was no easy journey. Look up Judah Halevi, Nachmanides, Ishtori Haparchi, Rabbi Ovadiah of Bartenura, Rabbi Yosef Caro – these are just some of the more notable ones who immigrated, driven by the Zionist aspiration to return to their homeland.
A further example of pre-19th century Zionism was the attempt to establish a Jewish autonomy in the 16th century by Joseph Nasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nasi
“Over the past millenia thousands of Jews immigrated to the Land of Israel under extreme risk to their lives”
Jews have immigrated to Israel under extreme risk to their lives?
Last year? 20 years ago? 50? What risk does a family from New York take
immigrating to Israel and then to an illegal settlement in the west bank?
Why should a Palestinian family be removed from their home to make way for a family from New York?
Zionists need to explain why Palestinians should be cleared from their homes to make way for wealthy westerners.
Andy
Wealthy families from NYC? Is that true? I thought the settlers were mostly the poor and oppressed in their countries of origin. I would be very interested to know if there is any basis for your claim because wealthy NYC families becoming settlers would seriously upset my basic materialist world view.
The Guardian has been taken over by the CIA and is now just a mouthpiece of Washington.
I know many people will find it hard to get their head around that, but as evidence of this I would point to the crude/clumsy propaganda that the Guardian now pumps out, and the fact that reader’s comments are now being phased-out, a la East Germany in the 1970s.
The police state is happening, folks.
For all those who are concerned at the witch hunt now underway within the Labour Movement by anti-democratic forces associated with Tony Blair and Zionist sympathisers, here’s an excellent article explaining what exactly is going on and who is behind it: https://electronicintifada.net/content/how-israel-lobby-manufactured-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481
That character who worked at BICOM certainly has some questions to answer.
Interesting look at the background and characters involved in the recent antisemitism smearfest.
Some of these characters have form, including previous for, believe it or not, inventing and managing incidents of antisemitism themselves.
All documented and on the record.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/how-israel-lobby-manufactured-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481
Herbie,
Perhaps RD and company would like to add their twopence worth to the fact what we are witnessing is a witch hunt, one of course they deny, despite a fair amount of evidence to suggest otherwise, among it the fact that several well known newspapers with fascist sympathies are running with the story as if their lives depended on it. I trust Ken Livingston will be exonerated and Mann expelled for his treachery to the Labour Movement.
Yes.
It’s a fabrication, so obvious, so political, that you’d have to wonder at anyone thinking otherwise.
What’s worse is that media are a central part of the fraud.
Should Corbyn survive he really does have to deal with these clowns once and for all. Otherwise the Labour party is lost.
Well if there is a witch hunt all I can say is that those leading it couldn’t have wished for more help from Ken.
Your reference to newspapers having fascist sympathies just demonstrates your level of childishness and your basic lack of understanding of history and what the term actually means.
RD,
It is you, rather than I that seems to have an issue with history, specifically the fact that both Mussolini and Hitler were widely supported by the rightwing British media, most notably the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail, during the interwar years. Further, Fascism, given it hailed from Italy and was in part an outlet of the Left, quickly morphed into something repugnant embraced by all manner of rightwing forces. But hey, I know fuck all and evidently do not hold a Degree in Modern Politics and History, nor for that matter a Master Degree, or any other kind of qualification for that matter, which will come as a shock to both those I studied under and those I studied with.
Alas though, in your book neither sections of the British ruling elite, its media mouth organs or sections of the Conservative Party, and indeed Labour, ever supported Hitler or Mussolini – which to be blunt demonstrates an ignorance beyond contempt.
Your reference to newspapers having fascist sympathies was clearly to the current date and not the appeasement which happened over 75 years ago. What the newspapers support now is not fascism as any student of Politics should be able to understand.
No it fucking well was not as you are fully aware, their hypocrisy, which I was pointing out is the fact that both titles I mentioned were open in their support for Fascism and Hitler, as were large segments of the UK establishment at the time. Now give it a break and take your bollocks elsewhere. i’ve asked you to answer a few questions you seem unable to to bother, which, and let’s be blunt, demonstrates your complicity in this affair. Neither Corbyn or Livingstone are anti-Semites and those who accuse them should have a writ delivered and a Court case for slander on their hands. Go propagandise elsewhere as its all you are doing. And yet you claim you are no Blairite, give it a rest man.
Israel @18,57, please enlighten those of us mystified by your claim that Zionism is ‘deep and ancient’. Even the phrase uttered at the Passover seder ‘next year in Jerusalem’ isn’t ‘ancient’, but rather an accretion to Jewish tradition dating only from the middle ages. As a political movement , rather than as a spiritual incantantion uniting the Jewish people on a given holy day, Zionism to most people is only as ‘ancient’ as the 1890s, the decade which saw the publication of Der Judenstaat, and the first Zionist congress in Basle.
Yes, good question. And not least because it should remind everyone reading that it is neither ignorance nor anti-semitism that prompts us to oppose Zionism, particularly in its current, government, form in which racist ideas are translated into every day racist crimes.
Alf Garnet with a machine gun and an air force is no longer funny.
Mark, I’m not so sure why this is of so much interest to you but Jewish liturgy and culture is almost completely based on the aspiration of the Jewish people to return home and reestablish their sovereignty in the Land of Israel.
Go to your nearest synagogue, open a prayer book and read the daily prayer: “May our eyes behold your return to Zion…Blessed are you, who returns his presence to Zion”. Read Psalms “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, there we wept, when we remembered Zion”. Read the poems of the medieval scholar Judah Halevi – “An Ode to Zion” (are you noticing that Zion is a recurring theme). Go read of the thousands of Jews who “immigrated” made the difficult and dangerous journey to the land of Israel over the past 1000 years (I can list you some of the more notable ones). Read of Joseph Nasi, a Jewish statesman and financier who attempted to create a Jewish City-State in Tiberius in the 16th century.
What do you think drove them all?
Look Mark, I don’t expect you to know my history inside out. Just don’t be an arrogant prick about it.
If you want to learn about things you know little about, just ask with a measure of respect.
Quite apart from all that, the Koran (or ‘Quran’) says that the Children of Israel will return to Palestine (near the Judgement Day), Whether or not one beleives in all this stuff, it’s there, in the Muslim holy book.
What I’m suggesting is that these matters are complex, deep in history and faith, in the concrete and the numinous. It’s in the Night Journey verse. So, then, is the Quran a ‘Zionist text’? You see there is much that is contradictory in all religion. I think it’s important that we challenge ourselves. To re-state, in the modern world, I believe in a Palestinian state. I think the Israeli settlers are a big problem, a big barrier to peace and justice. I also think Islamism is a big barrier to peace and justice. One feeds off the other.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=17&verse=104
Israel, what right does Israel have to ‘restore its (alleged) sovereignty’ over Palestine, and ‘from the Nile to the Euphrates’, by the violent dispossession and oppression of the indigenous inhabitants? Apart from religious mythology and boundless narcissism, that is.
Didn’t you do Moses leading the Israelites (but never entering it himself) to the Promised Land in your scripture lessons? All political movements usually have deep roots that go way back beyond their formal foundation – remember Harold Wilson on the Methodist roots of the Labour Party, EP Thompson on the role of the corresponding societies etc.etc.
But, RD, Moses, Exodus and all that is a myth, with NO grounds in reality, whatsoever. For this, and other myths, you are happy to see the Palestinians treated like animals, generation after generation.
In your eyes and probably my own it is a myth but I’m afraid that isn’t what matters. There is a large body for who it is not and their thoughts and beliefs are worthy of respect. No I am not happy for anyone, Palestinian, Jew or anything else, to be be treated like animals – that is why it is important to understand all sides so that a workable compromise can be achieved.
Except that it is what matters. These beliefs, manifested, are not worthy of respect. No failure to maintain a society based on a premise of equality should be suffered in the modern age.
I think it was also the case that Herzl’s Zionism was called Modern Zionism at the time – which does suggest that there was also a rather older version. Yes it may have been more spiritual, but I daresay the Holocaust and Russian pogroms did more than a little to encourage the spiritual side, and I daresay old Marxists have something of a problem with the spiritual having an influence on politics ( accept when the spiritual has elements that target Western democracies), but the reality is that element is there and it needs to be respected if you believe in religious and political tolerance of beliefs other than your own.
RD, why should ‘religious’ beliefs that are directed to the violent dispossession of an entire people through murder and terror, generation after generation, be respected. You might as well argue for ‘respecting’ the Wahhabists’ child crucifying or Aztec mass human sacrifice. Or is it that you just do not see Palestinians, Arabs and Moslems as human beings?
I see Palestinians, Arabs and Moslems as human beings just as much as I see Israelis and Jews as human beings.as well. Do you really see things in such a one sided manner? Do you really thing that the behaviour of Hamas and Hezbollah is entirely without fault? Do you think that Jews who came to Israel from Europe and also Islamic countries didn’t do so in order to get away from murder and terror in those countries?
RD, you PLAINLY see Israel’s barbarity as acceptable, therefore MUST believe that the Palestinians somehow ‘deserve’ unending suffering. Hamas are the elected Palestinian Government, and, in my opinion, are less odious than the Israeli apartheid regime. Hezbollah is an elected member group of the Lebanese Parliament, is a big social welfare organisation for their community and is an heroic resistance movement who ended a vicious Israeli occupation of south Lebanon, from 1978 to 2000, which was characterised by terror, murder and mass torture then defeated another Israeli aggression in 2006. Moreover they have heroically aided the Syrians to resist the jihadist onslaught, including the al-Nusra Front of butchers, who have been actively assisted by Israel, the jihadists’ friend.
I want to state what is maybe the obvious about two politicians.
1) We must give kudos to Ken Livingstone. If anyone in the future writes a proper history of our benighted times, his refusal to apologise for what he said will mark him out as one of the extremely few politicians of principle in any of the major British political parties. The only other one I can think of is Jenny Tonge.
2) We must have contempt for Jeremy Corbyn. Don’t get me wrong. He did have promise. I was very surprised that a member of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign was allowed to become the leader of a major party. I hoped he would be better than this. But his decision not to support Ken Livingstone shows him up for the forgettable establishment lickspittle that he is. Into the dustbin of history with you, Jeremy. Ken will be remembered by decent people; you won’t.
@Craig – If Nicola Sturgeon publicly and unambiguously supports Ken Livingstone by saying that what he said was both true and relevant and that it is a disgrace that he should be victimised for it, I will vote for her party next week. The same goes for Willie Rennie, and of course Kezia Dugdale. (Let’s discount the possibility that two or all three of them will show respect for the truth on this issue.)
Of course none of these creeps will do anything of the kind. Just saying. When the chips are down, all of these bastards are on the side of the Zionist baby burners.
N, as Willie Sutton said, ‘Because that’s where the money is’. Political morality, an execrable oxymoron, in the West has long been nothing but a cash calculus.
N.,
You are being too harsh on Corbyn, if only for the fact that within the Labour Party its internal bureaucracy is still controlled by the Blairite faction, and includes many within the Parliamentary Labour Party. Whilst I too am critical of some of the policies he has chosen to push, among them his late about face on the European Union, the fact remains he’s the Party’s last, best hope of reversing the Blaire decline and offering an alternative to the neoliberal and neoconservative consensus supported by much of the UK’s establishment.
Whilst I shall be voting ‘Out’ in the EU Referendum, I’ll probably vote Labour come the next GE if he moves the Party away from its Blairite legacy, however, given Carwyn Jones attacks on Livingstone the Wales Labour Party will not be getting my vote at our Assembly Elections – this will no doubt change in the years to come once Carwyn is finally retired our fucks up big time as the Welsh Assembly First Minister. At least we have PR in Wales for the Assembly elections, so not a single vote is wasted, and we don’t have to vote for the lesser of evils.
Of course anyone who doesn’t agree with Corbyn is a Blairite in the eyes of Green Party Member Chris Rogers.
RD,
F off, and my membership of the Green’s, of which I was a member for 12 month’s, expired in February you fucking twat, so please get your facts right, rather than propagate your ill informed propaganda. Facts dear boy, facts they are important, as CP Scott once opined, something lost on you and The Bloody Guardian – but Blairite swine never purport to tell the truth or utilise facts, no, they make their own facts and own history, much like the Zionists in fact, which again, is well documented.
The ill informed propaganda that you propagate is all your own mate – if you cannot keep your public image up to date that is you fault not mine.
Anyway thanks for confirming that you were applying to be a Labour Party supporter and vote for Corbyn while you were a Green Party member during the year ended February 2016 – which of course means that you lied on the application form and that the Labour Party was entirely correct in rejecting your vote.
RD,
May I remind you of the comments made by the interim leader of the Labour Party, one Harriot Harman, calling upon all those who had left the Labour Party to return to the fold and participate in the leadership election, which I duly undertook in good faith. Now would you like to give me back my fucking three quid, for once it was apparent all those subscribing to the supporters of Labour hook were actually not voting for Blairites, we became about as welcome as a dose of clap in a whore house, needless to say more than 12,000 of us were purged, most of these left-wingers like myself – my Labour Party affiliation formally ending in 2010 by the way.
Evidently none of this happened in your imaginary world, but alas all documentary evidence is freely available, including Harmen’s olive branch to former members pissed off by Blair.
I believe the word ‘disgruntled’ loser come to mind, which is why presently we now have a witch hunt going on, no doubt supported by your good self as you have not spoken out about it on these boards. Fancy that!!!!!!!!
Democracy must be alien to the likes of RD, as well as hard realities. Again, lets not let facts get in the way of blatant propaganda -‘ hoisted by your own petard’ old bean. How bloody lovely!!!!!!!!
PS,
Hows about posting under your real name, then I can check you out as you can check me out – Quid Pro Quo sir, but then you are a gutless poster, whilst I have zero fear and will suffer gladly the consequences of my own beliefs, beliefs held since 10 years of age.
Perhaps it is because the likes of you checking me out and then lying and acting maliciously is one good reason for me not revealing my identity. As I have mentioned before I believe someone has somehow already identified me probably from this site and sent me and my family obscene messages and threats – the Police were informed at the time.
I will condemn anyone for sending you and your family threats – whilst I fundamentally disagree with many of your beliefs, in no way do I believe they should be censored or lead to any personal harm or abuse. Indeed, I take JS Mill and his views on Liberty most seriously and uphold said views, namely, one cannot have an opinion unless said opinion is challenged by others – something the Blairites seem not to understand, and the same applies to The Guardian.
But its quite sad you are so fearful, unlike my good self, who could not give a toss!
Once bitten twice shy.
@Chris – Jeremy Corbyn has a tongue in his head and he could support Ken Livingstone on today’s biggest headline issue if he wanted to. He is the leader of his party. Well let him show some leadership on a matter of principle. But no. He has chosen to obey the Jewish lobby. If the fact that almost all Labour MPs are similarly supine was relevant to his decision, so what?
N_, not everyone who is attacking Livingstone and Corbyn et al for alleged anti-Semitism (e.g. John Mann) is Jewish, and there are many Jewish people who are strongly supportive of Livingstone, as recent open letters have demonstrated.
I do realise that “Jewish lobby” is a well-known and time-honoured phrase, but you leave yourself open to accusations of anti-Semitism if you bandy it about.
JSM,
Passions are high, no doubt an Israeli Lobby exists, and its members come from multiple faiths, Zionism being a political movement, not a religious faith and the two should never be conflated. History informs us that we must be vigilant against ‘anti-semitism’ and fight it tooth and nail. That our enemies wish to accuse those on the Left of such abhorrent opinion, just adds salt to our wounds and highlights clearly how desperate they are, they being the accusers. Again, there is no ‘anti-semitic’ crisis within the Left, zero sir, it is something those accusing the Left of harbouring will regret and I would never stand by and allow any one of any religious faith to be physically or verbally abused for holding such beliefs. However, it would seem this is exactly the intent of the Zionists and it’s a very dangerous game they are playing, one which we must condemn and expose for the ‘Big Lie’ that it is.
I have been told many times that it is possible to criticise Israel and not open yourself to accusations of antisemitism. Strangely, though, they are apparently unable to provide examples when asked.
Given my absolute and intractable belief that apartheid is not just wrong but evil, and should be stamped out, am I to conclude that antisemitism is not just inevitable but justified?
Obviously, because I am not stupid, I know this is not the correct conclusion. But not everyone is as bright as me. 😉
Oh do come on, so you are some shepherd named Abram, and you get told by some guy claiming to be “The God of your forefathers” that you’ve got to set your son on fire, and you shall gain “eternal glory”???
And we are supposed to respect those who believe this is true???
Isn’t it about time the world got real?
Of course, this is going to get deleted, eh Craig?
I think you will find that there are rather a lot of countries with state religions down here on this unreal world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion
I never knew that Methodism was the state religion of Tonga
Same as you did not realise that I’m a bloody Wesleyan Methodist myself, which is not uncommon in Wales, the same as being a Socialist is not uncommon.
You’d often see the queen of Tonga on a Sunday morning at Westminster Methodist Central Hall, back in the day.
The BBC has tonight renewed its, er, impartial coverage of Livingstone, with little regard for what was actually said in the first place. But Ken has sadly not yet realised that he is not on a populist platform, but some metres down, and still digging. Admirable in that he is not backing down on his opinion (unwise as he was to bring in the H- word),…but stupid. He should recognise that the assault is precisely vectored on his likely response, stfu and recover, before mobilising some solid support. To mix a metaphor, perhaps he’s decided to go down with all guns blazing, in no coherent direction.
On LBC this morning I heard Ken Livingstone say that he was going to talk to reporters after he left the show and then he was not going to make any further comment on this matter. I don’t know if he has stuck to that.
He said the same thing on Thursday when he made some comment about going to spend time in his garden with his newts – unfortunately as Baal has pointed out he is still engaged in digging of a different kind. I suspect Naz Shah wishes that he would just shut up, as will Corbyn but not Cameron.
RD, as you well know, Livingstone could shut up (just what the Zionists want to demonstrate their power to vilify and intimidate their victims)convert to Judaism, kiss Bibi’s posterior, and the Zionists would still slander him as a ‘self-hating Jew’, their ritual abuse for decent, non-racist, Jews.
I suspect the “Zionists” are more than happy for Livingstone to keep talking.
Do you actually for an instant believe that Ken Livingstone of all people is an ‘anti-semite’, given his anti-racist background stretching back to his youth. Much as Jeremy Corbyn is no racist, nor an anti-semite, neither is Ken, even to allude to such an attack disgusts me. So all I can say is Ken please stick to your guns as factual you were correct, and whilst the Zionists may be loath to admit it, they have a great deal of baggage to be concerned about, most of which is well documented, but again anyone, and I mean anyone critical of Israel or Zionism is now evidently anti-semitic given the changing definition of anti-semitism minute by minute in my humble option. Please, lets stop feeding the hysteria and lies being said by these bloody malcontents. They must be shoulder out for the liars and demagogues that they are. ‘How dare they’ is all I can add!!!!!
How the hell do we disable this bloody ‘auto-correct’ and putting words into our posts as we type – it really is most annoying, particularly without the ability of an ‘edit’ function to correct all the ‘auto’ non-corrections this bloody system spews forth.
Honestly, if Livingstone’s purported antisemitism (which I cannot find substantiated) is all that is necessary to make headlines for 3 days (and counting), the only conclusion to reasonably draw is that Britain does not have a problem of antisemitism. That’s good news in my book.
The pro-apartheid groups appear to wish to imbue antisemitism on Livingstone by their being offended, not by his words but a twisted inference from them. However, the act of being offended does not in any way add weight to an argument, and so it’s clear that *in truth* there is literally nothing to see here. Move along.
Well, Diane Abbott shares your opinion, but many are getting on the anti-Ken Livingston bandwagon, even within the Labour Party that allegedly has sympathy towards Corbyn.
Alas, by their smoke screen, the media are drawing attention away from the government of the day and three important elections that are taking place, namely the London Mayor Elections, EU Referendum, National Assembly Elections, and lest I forget, local council elections. But heck, why concentrate on this when you can slag off the Labour Movement as a hotbed of anti-semitism. That The Guardian is at the forefront of this vicious and unscrupulous assault speaks volumes.
Neither side will like all of this, which makes it instantly interesting. But I have no problem with its conclusions, personally.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/labour-anti-semitism-and-the-cult-of-you-cant-say-that/18314
Fundamentally, the treatment of Livingstone and others speaks to today’s strangling and censorious political climate. Why should people be suspended from parties for having said strange or outrageous things? Why not engage them in debate, prove them wrong? Why must people be put beyond the pale for making outré statements? Why not respond by having more debate with them, not less? In these PC times, shutting people down is the go-to solution to every controversy. And now we know that this instinct to shout ‘You Can’t Say That!’ is as strong on the right and the so-called respectable left as it is among student radicals and identitarian leftists. All politics now resembles an infantile NUS conference. ‘You’re racist! Get out of my safe space!’ ‘No, you’re racist! Get out of polite society!’ As a result, debate suffers, prejudice isn’t properly challenged, and reasoned discussion remains a far-off dream. The worst of all worlds.
@Ba’al Zevul,
Given that The Guardian Newspaper is at the forefront of this bollocks, and has closed down all reader responses on its pages – 90% of its politics section today one is unable to comment upon, unless its safe, such as housing.
Do the MSM and the pig fuckers supporting these crass accusation actually believe that in this day and age persons with an internet connection and handheld device are unable to undertake some rudimentary research for themselves. Do they really believe that the majority of the UK electorate actually can be arsed to read, never mind be influenced by all this blatant propaganda. Christ, are they, the establishment, that stupid as not to understand what’s happening politically in places from the USA to Spain. We seem to be witnessing the end of their ability to control the news and their own personal agenda, which is why we have Bernie Sanders in the USA attracting a legion of support and Mr. Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party, despite the best efforts of the MSM to abort these rather large changes.
And now they play the Anti-Semite card on both sides of the Atlantic. God I really despair and am aggrieved I’m unable to let off steam with fellow travellers on CIF, which has been more or less silenced by TPTB.
N-‘s stolen Bevin’s black pyjamas.
Israel is right to claim that Zionism had a long history, right to suggest that when asking of what occurs in a foreign country we should be respectful, but wrong to suggest that we in Britain are apart, across some divide and incapable of understanding.
Truth be told Zionism and Britain have a long interwoven journey.
We all know of Balfour.
Of Disraeli. One of Disraeli’s books was about a C12 Zionist from Iraq.
There was Laurence Oliphant
Moses Montefiore
Lord Palmerston
Lord Shaftsbury
John Nelson
Lord Byron
The Cartrights in the C17
Thomas Brightman in 1615 who wrote Shall They Return To Israel. If Habbs is still about Brightnan was at Queens Cambridge.
I would be interested to look into this further. Something interesting happened in the reign of Henry VIII, with some Venetian input.
Anyway the above should provide sufficient clues for those, who insist that Zionism is but a product of C19 nationalistic zeitgeist and for our new friend called Israel to remind him that we are all in this together. We can all have a voice. Even us colonial British exploitative dimwits!
More manufactured crises in the Guardian,
“With only days to go before voters go to the polls across Britain, Sadiq Khan admits that tens of thousands of Jewish voters in the capital may feel unable to back him following incendiary comments about Zionism and Hitler made by the last Labour occupant of the job, Ken Livingstone.”
What , ? “incendiary comments about Zionism “?
Imagine being accused of making incendiary comments about Apartheid South African?
Would Khan in the 80s have supported Apartheid? Probably.
[ Mod: caught in filter, timestamp updated ]
‘what we are witnessing is a witch hunt, one of course they deny, despite a fair amount of evidence to suggest otherwise’
Chris Rogers, a previous comment of mine supporting that proposition didn’t make it past moderation, probably because it included a lengthy quotation from Ken Livingstone’s autobiography which referenced his association with Lenni Brenner back in the 80s, and one of the instances of Zionist/Nazi attempted rapprochement in the 1930s which Brenner documented. (I’d forgotten that Craig has ruled discussion of this historical background as out of bounds). So I’ll make a second attempt at fleshing out the witch hunt hypothesis, sans the historical baggage:
1. Less than a week ago it looked as if Sadiq Khan would win the London Mayorality by a wide margin, Zac Goldsmith’s appeal not extending much beyond well heeled voters in west London (where he is a popular MP, and his anti Heathrow expansion credentials are welcomed). Such a result would give Corbyn’s leadership a much needed boost.
2. Right wing blogger Guido Fawkes throws a hand grenade into the slow burning ‘the Left and anti semitism’ debate by highlighting a couple of kindergarden level anti Zionist tweets from the Bradford MP dating from 2014 (before her election as an MP). An apology follows, but the meme ‘Labour has an anti semitism problem’, already in circulation following Lord Sugar’s remarks, continues to ratchet upwards.
3 Ken Livingstone is invited onto 2 programmes in quick succession for his opinion on the ‘Labour has an anti semitism problem’ meme. He defends the new Bradford MP, and his party, and in attempting to refute the meme, gives it extra oxygen in a couple of off the cuff answers to hectoring leading questions from Ms Feltz and Mr Neil.
4 Right wing Labour MP John Mann is filmed theatrically accosting Ken Livingstone as he moves between studios; the ‘Labour has an anti semitism problem’ meme enters the stratosphere.
5 The focus then switches to Corbyn- how will he defuse this ‘crisis’ ?
6 The chattering classes conclude that this has been a ‘terrible week’ for Labour, the Blairites and the Pro Israel lobby go into ‘I told you so’ mode, and prepare for the next anti Corbyn onslaught, having done their bit to help bring about a ‘disappointing’ result for Labour in this weeks London Mayoralty election- Sadiq Khan in the interim having likely lost support both to his right (to Zac Goldsmith, now sniffing an outside chance of victory) and to his Left (to George Galloway, picking up hard left and muslim voters disgusted by the ratcheting up of the Left and anti semitism meme).
@Old Mark – “the ratcheting up of the Left and anti semitism meme“.
How many people would reply “yes” to the question “do you think there’s too much anti-Jewish feeling in the Labour party?” I reckon extremely view. People may be stupid, but many aren’t that stupid. Most people in the country who have any interest in this story are probably well aware that what it’s all about is the Jewish lobby throwing its weight around. No journalist is going to say that. But that doesn’t mean people don’t realise it.
I’d agree that the meme ratcheting is meant to weaken the left and will probably do so – both the Labour party in the country and the left of the Labour party within it.
N_,
I’m quite vocal in my opposition myself to Israel and its behaviour towards the Palestinians, I’m further aware that powerful interests are at play, among them the Israeli Lobby, which to all extents and purposes is a Zionist cabal. Please, for the sake of our comrades who are Jewish, lets not conflate Judaism with Zionism, given many Jews are as opposed to Israeli actions as we ourselves are. Let us make clear our support for Jews to live in peace, to practice whatever beliefs they deem fit and defend them from racial slurs and insults. Yes, we may be critical of Israel, yes we may abhor Zionism and confront it for what it is, but lets not conflate being Jewish with being a Zionist, for the fact remains that in Israel today many ‘orthodox Jews’ with a long history of living in the Holy Lands, rather peaceably one will add with their neighbours, are opposed to both the State of Modern Israel and the treatment dished out daily to those who once they shared bread with. Forget these facts and we are no better than the Zionist and Blairite NuLabour faction that’s calling anyone to the left of Genghis Khan a ‘anti-semite’, which is a travesty, and one we are right to correct, lest these attacks be believed by the weak and feeble minded among us.
From the Torygraph: Pressure grows on Jeremy Corbyn as dossier of anti-Semitism in Labour Party is revealed, with a photograph of Jeremy Corbyn making him look worried and caught out about something, or at least trying to defend a weak position and in trouble.
Here’s the Torygraph’s message in short: “if you vote in the local elections on Thursday, make sure you vote Tory”.
From now on, all “battles” in British politics may between the candidates who call Mark Regev “Sir”…and the candidates who have learnt the lesson that the correct form of address isn’t “Sir” at all, but “Master”.
I’m just embarrassed for the corporate media now. I mean, there’s a media beat up, and there’s rank stupidity. We’ve long since veered into the latter on this non-issue. I care not if Hitler was a ‘zionist’. Hitler, among his many other flaws, was a first-rank liar, who feigned all sorts of positions, so perhaps he pretended to be, for his usual calculative reasons? Don’t know, don’t care. However, Livingstone may have got his history from a debatable source – though he stands by his contention, I see – but he’s hardly an anti-semite. The Nu Lab zombies are using this to foment strife, as anyone with a working brain can see, and this crisis is a non-crisis, an invented soap-opera drama that is basically beneath the electorate, and should be beneath the corporate media.
And Mann, of course, is a serial offender. Was his anger justified? Nope. Was it even real? I doubt it very much, unless he’s stupider than he looks. Ken of course often talks his way into trouble, when he might be better shutting up, but I’d rather have Ken making the odd gaffe than these ridiculous script-bots who never veer from the programme; the latter are just freaks. It’s even worse now that Blair has revealed his true self, the globe-trotting, bullshitting, capitalist, who consistently advocates a hard-line neoconism, and literally never talks about anything remotely connected to fair wages, safe work practices, and the restraining of capital. Not much to love there really, odd that he still has fans in the Labour Party …
Well, I guess its 7.00AM UK timeline, and having taken a quick gander over to The Guardian website I note that the vast majority of all coverage its now running is closed to comment, particularly if its of a political nature. Now all of this has been foreseen, indeed the groundwork for this has been laid over the past three months, but surely, given many only visit the Guardian’s website to either Comment or read Readers comments, its present business trajectory, as arranged by the Editor Ms. Viner is a complete and utter disaster. That the Board and the Editor do not see this, or seem incapable of understanding it means they are either stupid or of the opinion that many of their readers are stupid – which is disproved on Comment is Free on a daily basis, which is why said comments are being reduced to the extent of now being virtually non-existent. But readers are to take its spurious claims with a pinch of salt, or believe them wholeheartedly, which funnily, most don’t – hence Comment Ain’t Free anymore as its now effectively banned.
I don’t think Blair has many fans in the Labour Party nowadays – there are however plenty of “social democrats” who do not agree with the line being pushed by Corbyn/McDonnell/ Livingstone/Milne et al and labelling them all as Blairite is just a short hand used to avoid engaging in argument by those of an authoritarian mindset.
The Blairites are neoliberals. They aren’t socialists or even democrats, they believe the markets rule and power has to be taken using what ever means.
RD,
Here’s the funny thing, the social democrats you speak of buggered off and formed their own political party in 1983, namely the Social Democratic Party. Further, one was always of the opinion that the Labour Movement was a European Socialist Party that adhered too democratic socialism. Now, as you have had a go at me, for leaving the Labour Party, it left me as I never left it, I amazed that you are now indicating that a number of social democrats, that is persons who do not concur with the aims and values of the Labour Movement, are actually well represented within its ranks, indeed welcome by you no less. Whilst longterm party member, trades unionists and activists such as myself, who were appalled by the neoliberal/neoconservative trajectory of the Party after 2000 are not welcome, despite formally be associated with the Party for the same duration of time as its former leader, one Tony Blair, who in my book is a war criminal who should be brought to justice with GW Bush for his crimes against humanity.
Funny is it not!!!
AS someone who studied politics it is perhaps surprising that you don’t understand that the social democratic tradition started well before the SDP, and in fact has very little to do with them, and has been part of the Labour Party rather longer than you have. MArxists of course have always reserved a special hatred for social democrats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Federation
“Cohen quotes Aisha Ali-Khan to discredit Galloway. He does not mention that Ali-Khan has faced more than one criminal charge including breach of confidentiality and that her credibility is thereby damaged.”
He did however link to the BBC page which gave details of the criminal charges – which do not include breach of confidentiality which is the reason Galloway alleged why she was sacked by him – but as far as I am aware there has been no criminal or civil charges made against Ali-Khan in respect of breach of confidentiality.
“Cohen refers back to his own article referring to “Jew-baiters at the Oxford University Labour Club”, which includes an appalling smear against James Elliott, as I have noted on here before.” Well at least you followed that link – but all it says on that link is as follwos
“But even if a chastened Labour expels this or that antisemite or disciplines the Jew-baiters at the Oxford University Labour club, I do not see how its leaders can challenge the conspiratorial world-view they shared for decades. They would be renouncing everything they once believed in.”
There is a further link on the linked quote above to an article by Aaron Simmons – which doesn’t mention James Elliot by name – so it need quite a leap of imagination to say that Cohen has made an appalling smear against James Elliot.
RD,
Perhaps you’d like to post this under the Cohen article in question – although propaganda, lies and innuendo would be a more appropriate term. The fact remains that you cannot post a reader response to this and other multiple news articles because the ‘COMMENT’ facility has been switched off, of which you have fuck all to say, and yet here you are protesting again.
Further, please answer this question: Do you believe Jeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone are ‘Anti-Semites’?
And just one more: Do you believe The Guardian Newspaper/Website is censorious given the fact that within a one year timeline coinciding with a new Editor Comment Is Free has effectively been silenced, that is closed down, or censored to such an extent to make it meaningless?
When you can give honest and open responses to these matters posters like me may take you seriously, that you continually parrot your masters viewpoints makes one highly suspect, but again, I hate beating about the bush and usually prefer going for the jugular, which is a bit like our Ken I’ll note.
I am not sure you fully appreciate what I am getting at. Cohen is presenting a wholly biased report given what he states and also what he omits. In my opinion he cannot fail to know the points that I have raised. And by the way, I most certainly did check the link. Links are neither here nor there – it is the face of the report that matters, as Cohen knows perfectly well.
The actual criminal charge against Aisha Ali-Khan was “encouraging the obtaining of personal information without consent”. Therefore my use of “breach of confidentiality” was a bit loose, for which my apologies, but the general thrust of the conviction is very close to what I said. Here is a link to details of the charge.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/23/george-galloway-former-parliamentary-secretary-aisha-ali-khan-pleads-guilty
Cohen must know this, and he must know her credibility is therefore suspect, and she has a personal motivation to damage Galloway, and he does not mention the matter. This is not the behaviour of a journalist with integrity. In my opinion, leaving this sort of thing to a link is not good enough. In fact, this is why he leaves things that do not accord with his biased message to links only.
As to the smear against James Elliott, well, in the one case you seem to be regarding links as part of the article, when you think it is Cohen’s favour, and in the other you don’t, also when you think it is Cohen’s favour. My point is that Cohen is happily building this nonsense through article after article and re-linking to his previous nonsense to buttress his new nonsense. Anyone can see, if they do follow the links, that Simons is smearing Elliott with an unjust accusation of anti-Semitism. Cohen then uses Simons to buttress his own agenda and then re-links to that previous buttressing in his new rubbish. Again, this is appallingly dishonest behaviour from a supposed journalist. I know this because I have seen his stuff and followed his links before. How many people would not bother to trace link after link until they get down to the actual smears? Plenty. And Cohen knows it.
There has been some weird dog whistling going on over the past 15 years. I appreciate how Jewish communities and Israeli ears are finely tuned to racism against them, and to calling out a dog whistle when they hear one, but there are other dog whistles about. Some of them attacks, but others are cautions or warnings to stay away from a topic. Like an electronic audio dog fence they warn with subtle repetitions that an issue is taboo and to back off.
Since 2001 it has begun to feel as if there is some unspoken subtext, which warns one away from expressing too much sympathy or interest in Islam. Its acceptable to be Zen, but sufism is now going to raise eyebrows. Its all a long way since the 1960s.
Now it has begun to feel as if there is another unspoken subtext, which warns that if one is critical of Israeli politics then expect eyebrows to be raised as if one is a racist, or anti-semite.
So, its worth bearing in mind that when 4,000 British jews were polled by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research in 2010, 95% of whom had visited Israel, and 72% of who described themselves as Zionists a pretty amazing 78% supported the two state solution.
So, that is interesting isn’t it – clearly a large number of self identifying Zionists, who are British Jews, who have been to Israel, support a two state solution. So in some of their minds a Zionist seeks, what is essentially a jewish homeland but one which can tolerate a non-jewish palestine. I don’t know what percentage of that group sees that homeland as a religious state and what percentage sees it as a secular jewish state but which guards the religious community.
I appreciate that its one thing to be critical within the group and often quite another thing when others say the same thing outside . that is because those on the outside may have a sub text or dog whistle.
Maybe in Israel its not 72% and more evenly balanced 50/50 and perhaps in Israel they raise an eyebrow at more liberal British jews without the same day to day issues, but still 50% is something. I have mentioned the Gatekeepers documentary about Shin Beth before, but its worth mentioning again. The former security bosses, who are not soft liberals, were not opposed two a two state deal, but thought they had worked to ensure that when the time came to do the deal the israeli politicians would have the upper hand and be able to do a deal in confidence, but the deal didn’t get done. I say in confidence because they made it quite clear that they had been so good at their job there was no effective terrorist opposition – it was thoroughly penetrated and undermined. They blamed the politicians and the difficulties arising from a coalition democracy, which has to stay in with the more extreme religious factions or lose power. I don’t know to what extent that is retired security chiefs seeking to justify their actions, but they seemed sincere (though difficult for me to assess). I also don’t know about Israeli coalition politics., but my basic point is simple Zionism is not just about a one state solution and means different things to different people. It can also mean a two state solution.
Interesting survey on views in israel at
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2016/03/Israel-Survey-Full-Report.pdf
Very interesting and informative – it is worth noting that Israel in his comments also noted that he was in favour of a two state solution and that LIkud and Netanyahu do not have overwhelming support in Israel as their 23% vote in the last election demonstrates.
I think you might bear in mind that ‘two-state solution’ has different meaningsto different people. To Westerners vaguely supportive of an intentionally undefined idea, it may mean two states in which the two ethnic identities can live in some semblance of harmony, without one side bothering the other. It’s become increasingly clear that this is not what it means to the Israeli Right, and centre. Three projects are currently under active discussion:
1. To cut a deal with the Egyptians for some unwanted land in Sinai, which can be annexed to Gaza, and to which West Bank Palestinians would be, er, encouraged to transfer. The new state would be a larger version of Gaza, and as long as American hush-money continues to be paid to Egypt, would remain a ghetto, subject to interference by Israel. Abbas won’t buy this, and despite a meretricious attempt, involving Blair, to exploit Hamas – Fatah differences, it doesn’t look at the moment as if Hamas is too interested either. Discussions continue, however.
2. Palestine is Jordan. IOW it becomes Jordan’s problem, in addition to all the Palestinian and other refugees there already.
3. Bantustans. Palestinian cities are autonomous, piecemeal, and dependent on Israel, under terms and conditions, for their infrastructure.
And, er, that’s it. Whether any of these qualify as a two-state solution is open to more than debate, but Israel’s ongoing and overt strategy leaves no room for other options.
CAUGHT IN THE MODERATION FILTER AND THEREFORE LIKELY TO BE CENSORED ANYTIME NOW (PART 1)
I decided to have a closer look at various claims that [a certain double barrelled name] – my analysis is below.
As you will note there is something of a recurring theme of subtly twisting the actual facts so that they fit in with the line that [ a certain double barrelled name] wishes to push. Perhaps [ a certain double barrelled name] needs to be a little more circumspect when he criticises Nick Cohen of being “a fabricator and propagandist of startling proportions” given his own efforts.
Very happy to engage with your analysis.
CAUGHT IN THE MODERATION FILTER AND THEREFORE LIKELY TO BE CENSORED ANYTIME NOW (PART 3)
“Cohen quotes Aisha Ali-Khan to discredit Galloway. He does not mention that Ali-Khan has faced more than one criminal charge including breach of confidentiality and that her credibility is thereby damaged.”
He did however link to the BBC page which gave details of the criminal charges – which do not include breach of confidentiality which is the reason Galloway alleged why she was sacked by him – but as far as I am aware there has been no criminal or civil charges made against Ali-Khan in respect of breach of confidentiality.
“Cohen refers back to his own article referring to “Jew-baiters at the Oxford University Labour Club”, which includes an appalling smear against James Elliott, as I have noted on here before.” Well at least you followed that link – but all it says on that link is as follwos
“But even if a chastened Labour expels this or that antisemite or disciplines the Jew-baiters at the Oxford University Labour club, I do not see how its leaders can challenge the conspiratorial world-view they shared for decades. They would be renouncing everything they once believed in.”
There is a further link on the linked quote above to an article by Aaron Simmons – which doesn’t mention James Elliot by name – so it need quite a leap of imagination to say that Cohen has made an appalling smear against James Elliot.
CAUGHT IN THE MODERATION FILTER AND THEREFORE LIKELY TO BE CENSORED ANYTIME NOW (PART 2)
“I have also just been reading the transcript of Ken Livingstone’s offending remarks in the interview with Vanessa Feltz on BBC Radio. I did not appreciate before (and I certainly would not have picked it up from media treatment of this matter) that Livingstone did not “drag {AH] in” to any conversation. [AH] was raised first by Vanessa Feltz, and Livingstone responded to her comments. ”
What Vanessa Feltz actual did was list what Naz Shah has done which included that she had said that [AH} was legal in what he had done. Livingstone then made his [AH} comment in response to that – if you think that was an appropriate response then that really says more about you than the media treatment of Livingstone.
“Cohen says historians need to explain that AH was not a Zionist. False. Livingstone never said he was.”
No he didn’t say that – he said “While Ken Livingstone was forcing startled historians to explain that [AH] was not a Zionist, I was in Naz Shah’s Bradford.” That is not the same thing.
Against board policy, I actually posted quite a long discourse on the historical facts that Mr. Livingstone was referring too, and whilst not concurring with Ken’s own analysis – given I’m unable to verify his claims, nonetheless demonstrated that the issue of Europe’s Jewish problem, as highlighted by AH and his sympathisers, elicited numerous solutions from the concentric competitive power structures surrounding AH during his tenure in Office, one of which being the ‘Final Solution’. As such, and historically speaking Livingstone’s comments were valid and worthy of further debate and in no way can be construed as ‘anti-semitic’, rather they were the musing of an inquisitive mind.
Again, it seems CM has an issue with historical facts and interpretations, but the fact remains historians have been looking at these issues for decades, the results of which clearly indicate that the FS was but one of a multiplicity of answers to a dialogue AH instigated, one that ultimately led to great loss of life all in his name.
What I said, was that Livingstone had been accused of dragging in AH. I had just been listening to a radio show on which Livingstone had been severely barracked for even mentioning AH. On reading the transcript it was immediately clear to me that he had done nothing of the kind. He was responding, presumably off the cuff in response to a question, to his interviewer’s previous mention of AH. Whether or nor his response was an appropriate one I did not comment upon. As a matter of fact it seems rather at right angles to what Feltz said, but I don’t know what was running through his mind about the legality of AH’s actions. Nonetheless, the row has been about Livingstone being an apologist for Nazism, which he clearly is not, since what he said was true and verifiable.
Sure, I cut down a little for brevity. Okay. Let me rephrase. Cohen says Livingstone was forcing startled historians to explain that AH was not a Zionist. False. Livingstone never said he was. Is that better?
My response presently in moderation.
And remains in ‘mod’ as of 10.47 AM, it being fast approaching evening here in my neck of the woods.
My response includes the N z word, which is presumably why it is in there.
JSD,
We could of course take this up in email exchanges, however such a route would deny further input from others, which is the whole purpose of this Blog in my humble opinion. Again, i too have been captured in ‘Moderation’ for a few posts that have relied heavily on the historical record, a record now being denied and ignored – this is most dangerous, but who am I to moan, given my own inability, and that of many others, to set the record straight in the MSM, most notably The Guardian.
I’m not worried. I am sure it will pop out of mod eventually.
I thought that a few of my better effusions had been blammed then realised that I’d been commenting on two of Craig’s posts without noticing….
Ouanqueur
The censors (or the filters they apply) clearly do not allow me to make long posts or to refer to [AH] – perhaps they might wish to update me on all the rules they apply so as not to waste my or their own time.
Sorry RD,
But we are all captured here with this matter in ‘moderation’, which is applied equally to all, as I can attest too having several posts moderated out of existence – so nothing in reality to see here, apart from the loss of some posts that took a fair while to actually write.
It is quite clear that abuse of other posters has never been allowed
I cannot comment on that as I’ve only been visiting CM’s site for about 18 months and only began posting myself a few months ago having given up on The Guardian, however, experience suggests that all are treated equally here regardless what side of the political spectrum we inhabit. But its rather difficult to have a cogent dialogue if one is unable to bring verified historical fact to the table, buts thems the rules.
RD
“…perhaps they [MODS/CRAIG] might wish to update me on all the rules they apply so as not to waste my or their own time”
Yes, the shifting sands of an unclear comment policy undoubtedly leads to partial deletions. Yes I know it’s “his place” (although of course it isn’t) but it makes a mockery of CM’s highfalutin claims to free speech advocacy. If one must preach, then practice it.
Talking of ‘shifting sands’, or moving goal posts, one only has to look at the continually changing definition of what does, or does not constitute anti-semitism to discern that we are being played and that that particular term of abuse is utilised as a catch all to silence all critics of Israeli policy, be it internal or external, which means to all extent and purpose nearly every poster on these boards is an ‘anti-semite’, regardless of the reality of the smear or meaning of said smear. Bugger them I say!
Whist the accusers may believe they are clever, the fact remains they are digging their own grave with their deception and outright lies, as evidenced by what’s occurring on The Guardian and other MSM outlets that allow some reader feedback. Our masters are losing control of the situation and clearly don’t like it.
The mods or the blog owner clearly do not interpret anti-Semitism as a “catch all to silence all critics of Israeli policy” and it is verging on the ridiculous to say that they do so.
It should be noted that my post was purely in relation to comments made by another poster.
The illustration accompanying Freedland’ s Guardian article is of “Greater Isreal”, Palestinians have wiped off the map.
Andy,
Mr. Freedland, as ever, has been eviscerated on Media Lens and Off Guardian – regrettably readers of The Guardian, such as myself, are unable to eviscerate the bugger due to the fact we are expected to take Freedman’s comment as God given. Perhaps he has a Moses complex, alas we don’t know as he’s incapable of telling the truth, although he’s a very good propagandist, one easily seen through by the majority who read his crass opinion. And to cap it all he’s allegedly a left-winger. Can’t make this shit up I’m afraid.
Freedland says that white middle class westerners have the right to wipe Palestinians off the map because European colonisers committed genocides on the indigenous peoples of North and South America, Australia, and New Zeland.
Perhaps Freedland has a ‘God’ complex, in which case for his own health he needs sectioning – do you know two doctors who could assist in his rehabilitation?
Maybe he’s just a fascist thug.
“Freedland says that white middle class westerners have the right to wipe Palestinians off the map”
Where – link please as Mr Scorgie would demand. Please stop lying
I believe the link has been supplied and statement of fact by Freedland detailed. Are you still apologising for this bastard, or are you actually the bastard in question, namely Jonathan Freedland having a laugh at our expense – no wonder you are shit scared of identifying who you are!!!!!!!!
Freedland clearly says no such thing = hence the bluster.
Jamie Stern-Weiner on Freedland’s ‘plea’ Guardian article.
http://normanfinkelstein.com/2016/04/30/jonathan-freedlands-plea/
Also from True Torah Jews. “Nazi Propaganda was Based on What Zionists Said”
http://www.truetorahjews.org/naziismzionism
The window for any sort of peaceful resolution to this is fast disappearing. Israel either needs to destroy Palestine or make peace. Sooner or later there will be some entity that will settle the score with Israel, no matter the cost to themselves. Israel’s actions currently are inviting that.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/03/04/notes-on-anti-semitism-zionism-and-palestine/
March 4, 2004
Notes on Anti-Semitism, Zionism and Palestine
by Tariq Ali
You might find this interesting
Many thanks for this old link to Counterpunch and one of its articles by the esteemed Tariq Ali, which i trust not only shines a light on the past few months events, but exonerates Ken Livingston for allegedly holding anti-semitic views, which his contrary to a lifelong anti-racism on his behalf. And yet, somehow our enemies believe we must swallow this shit.
With all the smears, out right lies and propaganda being distributed about the supposed ‘anti-semitism’ crisis engulfing the Labour Movement, its worth remember what President Johnson (LBJ) had to say when it came to outlandish smear tactics, and I quote: ” Legend has it that LBJ, in one of his early congressional campaigns, told one of his aides to spread the story that Johnson’s opponent fucked pigs. The aide responded “Christ, Lyndon, we can’t call the guy a pigfucker. It isn’t true.” To which LBJ supposedly replied “Of course it ain’t true, but I want to make the son-of-a-bitch deny it.”
Does this ring a bell and do the fuckwits spreading these outrageous lies believe for an instance in this day and age that the bulk of the electorate is pig ignorant, or not fully ware of what actually is going on.
Although, it seems RD and a few others, despite allegedly being of a sane disposition, seem unable to face up to a few realities, namely the bollocks they are swallowing that they also desire actual left-wingers and liberal progressives to swallow. It ain’t The Sun here I’m afraid!!!!!!
I remember the heyday of the Trotskyist Militant Tendency when 45-year old “students” hawked their revolution in corridors and alleyways of the LSE. Their weapon was something called “entryism”. Now we have the Zionist Tendency, alias the Blairites, exploiting fictitious “anti-semitism” to bring about a coup in the Labour leadership. They would like nothing more than a political landscape identical to the pro-Zionist Republican-Democrat paradigm where 99.9% of the US Congress take orders from AIPAC.
Time to expel the Blairites. They always belonged in the Conservative Party.
I initially was opposed to Corbyn and Labour’s Left thinking the ranks of the Blairites. However, on genuflection we now require a bloodbath and night of the long knives. The Labour Party is its membership and grass roots support, not a bunch of middle class arsewipes in Westminster who claim to represent us and then support measure diametrically opposed to ours, that is their constituents, best interests.
You need to get yourself off to Tuol Sleng with Bevin and N- , don’t forget to pick up a pair of pyjamas on the way.
I darn’t take said advice for fear the old man may shoot me by mistake – although, at the time it really was no laughing matter, death never is.
This is a typically unfair smear. It is what people such as Jim, who cannot deal with arguments in which facts and the historical record are currency, deal in.
It is what Livingstone is faced with and what Corbyn is trying to cope with, smears. Half truths. Lies.
It was an army of Cambodian revolutionaries, armed and allied with the army that General Giap founded and including former members of the National Liberation Front of Vietnam which liberated those detained in the Khmer Rouge’s camps.
They then set out, prompted by the horrors that they had discovered, to capture and try those responsible for their crimes.
In this worthy endeavour they were thwarted by the US and British governments which threw their protective arms around the caps in which Pol Pot and his henchmen took refuge, then armed them and trained them in the use of explosives and shoulder launched missiles, in order that they could terrorise the people of Cambodia and de-stabilise the new government.
Jim need not go there-those camps are long gone now- but he can catch up with the latest act in this long going drama, written in Washington and performed wherever governments refuse to bow to the US President and Israel, now playing, with casualties in the hundreds of thousands, in Syria.
God speed, the quickest way is through Turkey, the pay is $200 per month. And the chicks are free, or rather, slaves.
Chris:
The irony is that once upon a time I was a Thatcherite. Now I can’t stand the sight or sound of the Tories or their Blairite brethren.
Corbyn needs to tell the witch-hunters to go to hell or he might as well raise the white flag.
Njegos :
Yours is the same trajectory as the sainted Paul Craig Roberts.
@Njegos,
If it makes you feel better, I was one of the Party faithful who actually elected Blair to the Labour Party leadership after John Smiths untimely death, so we all have skeletons in our wardrobes, but even Thatcher did not stoop to the lows our Labour brethren are engaging in, all edged on by an extremely rightwing MSM.
Of course one has repented and now fights neoliberalism and neocons with tooth and nail, but even I’m shocked at the crap the Left and progressives are having thrown at us presently and take extreme umbrage at accusations of ‘anti-Semitism’ being directed at the UK left, and indeed Bernie Sanders and his legion of supporters in the USA. It really is contemptible and beyond the pale.
Radio 4 has just given an extended interview to Michael Foster, major Labour donor, and, entirely coincidentally, celebrity agent. Foster has longstanding issues with Corbyn, and from his description it appeared that the Corbynites don swastika armbands before meeting in private to discuss the final solution.
As he’s stated before in the course of his campaigning, his own daughter had been met with chants of ‘zio’ from an unspecified meeting she was addressing, on a topic ‘tangential’ to Israel, and this certainly requires research. Were the ‘well-educated young males’ doing the chanting sharing a most unsocialist university education? Indeed they were. My guess is Oxford, PPE, but I will accept informed correction.
Has Foster adduced any evidence that the chanters represented in any way the opinion of the Labour Party or any part of it, rather than the Bullingdon Club or Hizb’ ut-Tahrir? He has not. Has Foster tempered his consistent support of Israel as it is presently constituted with anything more than equivocal criticism of its policy towards Palestinians? He claims he has, but it is hard to see where. (Note, two Labour MP’s are called Michael Foster, and one at least is in LFI. He’s not one of these.) Michael Foster (this one) is withdrawing his funding from the Labour Party unless it does what he wants. That’s democracy.
Paul Flynn has an alternative view. And backs it up:
http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/
We are Jewish members and supporters of the Labour party and of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, who wish to put our perspective on the “antisemitism” controversy that has been widely debated in the last few weeks (Labour’s antisemitism crisis as Livingstone suspended, 29 April). We do not accept that antisemitism is “rife” in the Labour party. Of the examples that have been repeated in the media, many have been reported inaccurately, some are trivial, and a very few may be genuine examples of antisemitism. The tiny number of cases of real antisemitism need to be dealt with, but we are proud that the Labour party historically has been in the forefront of the fight against all forms of racism. We, personally, have not experienced any antisemitic prejudice in our dealings with Labour party colleagues.
@Ba’al Zevul,
I’m rather surprised you even question why as a Corbynista I find it necessary to don armbands with Hindu symbols on them for good luck, obviously our wardrobes are full of Brown and Black shirts only and we have a propensity to wear jodhpurs as we arrange railway timetables for the transportation of the enemies of Jeremy. I fail to see what any of this has to do with an outbreak of a virulent disease infecting many within the Labour Movement, among them one Ken Livingstone, who has been placed in quarantine to protect him from an intrusive media.
This is but run of the mill stuff in the fantasy houses known as the UK media, most of whom inhabit such dens of iniquity are either on acid or crack-cocaine. Well, apart from Jonathan Freedland and Mr. Cohen who are too busy smearing the Labour Movement to enjoy the news that 250 of their peers face the sack so they can continue to dribble forth – this sacrifice by the masses is a price worth paying states Gaby Hinsliff!!!!!!
http://undercoverinfo.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/how-a-far-right-tory-the-media-blairites-ambushed-corbyn-re-antisemiticgate/
You might find this interesting.
More from this letter you linked to on Paul Flynn’s website, which is very clear about what these Jewish Labour Party members think all this nonsense is really about:
“We believe these accusations are part of a wider campaign against the Labour leadership, and they have been timed particularly to do damage to the Labour party and its prospects in elections in the coming week.”
Quite.
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/04/30/nobody-bothered-to-check-who-created-that-anti-semitic-image-naz-shah-retweeted-did-they/
Zinoviev a-go-go
Norman Finkelstein is a ”self hating Jew” which is what Zionists call Jewish anti-Zionists.
Yup. Carefully distinguish between Norman and Danny Finkelstein. It is undoubtedly antisemitic of Naz Shah to use Norman’s map, because Norman has studied the subject at length, and has had anathema pronounced on him by friends of Israel. Whereas Danny has been known to make even Israel’s supporters slightly nauseous when he attaches his pronouncements to their cause:
http://www.israellycool.com/2014/12/06/30-reasons-uk-jewry-needs-help/
I heard that too. Baal forgot to mention that Mr Foster also seems to want to give the leadership of the Labour Party instructions on what the remit (a word he managed to mispronounce) of the investigatory panel should be.
Thank you for supplying the deficiency.
Max Blumenthal and John Weeks agree that the charges of anti-semitism against the Labour Party in the UK are part of an orchestrated effort from the Right
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=16240
Blair’s apologist, John Rentoul, despite his usual sympathies, made a good point recently (maybe on Twitter). And that is that if Remain’s got to get the Labour vote out to stay in the EU, there is at least a small problem if the Corbyn/Blairite split is enhanced. Especially given that many Corbynites are still just a little flaky on Europe. Ergo, he suggests, the Remain Tories are running round like headless chickens. And stirring the antisemitism pot is very much to Boris and Gove’s advantage. It’s all getting very confused, especially for the Blair Tendency.
I call omnishambles.
Andy :
Nobody orchestrated Ken Livingstones big mouth did they? As Owen Jones pointed out earlier on the Andrew Marr show, he handed Corbyn’s enemies a massive weapon through his own bloody stupidity.
Jim,
When you mention Owen Jones, who’s about as welcome as a dose of clap in many places, or a nonentity and sell out by his own words, one cannot take you comment seriously, the fact remains the Blaire Right of Labour, together with a fearful Establishment have been running with this ‘anti-semitism’ bollocks since late July/early August last year, epitomised by crap posted in the Jewish Chronicle that JC answer questions, for what crimes we do not know, but answer he must.
Please, I’m confident you can do better than this, particularly given I was active in the Corbyn campaign on Social media and bloody well put my neck on the line.
The fact is, this non-story, produced by well known Zionists within the MSM, is a pure fabrication, but is being utilised, and as been utilised since late July last year to undermine Corbyn and the democratic will of the majority of the Labour Party who elected him, and this included almost 50% in the full-time membership. This is about democracy and right and wrong and fuck all to do with alleged ‘anti-semitism’ by the Lefts traditional enemies, among them Zionists and Blairites.
I’ll take a rational and reasoned Owen Jones any day over someone like yourself ranting about ‘Zionist cabals’ Chris, sorry.
It’s pretty basic stuff – don’t use idiotic tropes like the one above, don’t make foolish references to Hitler, confine your attacks to the actions of the Israeli State, and you don’t give your enemies ammunition.
Jim,
I hold Owen Jones in zero esteem, not because he’s an idiot, but because he’s a sell out and quite blatant about it, oh and much of what he authors is dribble, but again that’s neither here or there. If you wanted to make the point, make it yourself, for I’d hazard a guess you are more informed and cogent than young Mr. Jones – so take that as the compliment it actually is.
The Guardian lies,
”On Friday, Corbyn suspended Ken Livingstone from the party and announced an independent inquiry into antisemitism in Labour, to be led by Shami Chakrabarti, the former head of Liberty.
”It follows incendiary comments in which the former London mayor appeared to claim that Adolf Hitler, whose regime was responsible for the deaths of six million Jews, was a Zionist. ”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/01/diane-abbott-smear-labour-antisemitism-problem-andrew-marr
Livingston never said Adolf Hitler was a Zionist.
On the Guardian’s website, it’s first page, I can see six stories about Labour’s antisemitic problem that doesn’t in reality exist.
I’ve never seen the Guardian produce so much fabricated ”news” on just one day.
Andy,
But the lies are not the issue, what we should be focusing on, is an ability via CIF and Social Media to details accurately why these alleged statements of fact, are but a tissue of lies spread by Zionists and rightwing forces, as identified clearly my Max Blumenthal and many others.
The fact remains, and it’s the most annoying one, since Viner at The Grauniad effectively closed down CIF, whereby a legion of readers daily undertook the job of questioning articles and offering alternatives, alternatives actually readers could digest, this option has now been removed. Indeed, having witnessed a torrent of abuse on the one article on the London Mayor Election, where we could post, the Labour rightwing and its allies in London were out in full force, among then one Francis Smith, a well known Blaire and anti-Corbyn rabble rouser, that she is a women pedalling her shit makes it all the worse. Alas, the tone of the thread was valedictory, particularly when anyone who attempted to inform with truth was Modded, hence the bias, tone and ill considered depth of feeling was sickening. And remember folds, as with ResDes, these are supposed to be left leaning readers, or actual members of the LP, well the Blair LP shall I say.
Given CM seems opposed to any historical analysis on the subject matter, and despite numerous links backing up Livingstone’s remarks, the fact remains within the MSM currently the masters are in charge of, and directing this fabricated lie of ‘anti-semitism’ for all they are worth.
To say one is annoyed, deflated and just pissed off is an understatement – and yet the assault continues, an assault directed at many posters on these boards who hold strong opinion about Israel, and yet who desire to show solidarity with their Jewish peers, Labour peers and the Palestinians. It matters not what Livingston has said, this issue of ‘anti-semitism’ they have been playing with since last August when the Jewish Chronicle ran its own bullshite stories, at least the JC allowed readers to correct its abuse, the same does not apply to most of the UK dailies, led by no less than the bloody Guardian.
Shameful and highly frightening, particularly given only 267,000 Jews live in the UK, none of whom face any threats, from left-wingers at least, and yet allegedly the bastion of anti-racism, our Labour Party and the Left in general is accused of being an hotbed of anti-semitism. If only!!!!!!!!
Clearly certain people are allowed to mention AH but those who wish to respond quoting the original post are not.