Scottish nationals have two supra-national citizenships. One is UK citizenship, the second is EU citizenship. In democratic referenda over the past two years, Scots have voted clearly to retain both citizenships.
Unfortunately it is not possible to respect both democratic decisions of the Scottish people, due to a vote by other nationalities. So where you have democratic decisions which cannot both be implemented, which does democracy demand should take precedence?
It is not a simple question. The vote to retain EU citizenship was more recent and carried a much larger majority than the earlier vote. In addition it was made crystal clear during the campaign that it may require the overturning of the earlier vote. So on these grounds I believe the most recent vote must, as an exercise in democracy, have precedence.
In these circumstances the announcement by the First Minister that she is initiating the procedure on a new referendum for Scottish independence from the UK, in order to retain Scottish membership of the EU, is a sensible step.
But I believe there is another step she should take. The democratic conflict of decisions brings about a conflict of interests between the institutions to which Scotland elects national representatives.
To resolve this requires a supplementing of current constitutional arrangements. The First Minister should therefore convene a National Convention consisting of all Scotland’s elected national representatives – its MEPs, MPs and MSPs united in a single democratic body merged on a one member one vote basis.
This body should draw up recommendations for the independence referendum, including on the future constitution, economy including currency, and international alliances of an independent Scotland, and should oversee negotiations with the EU. The next referendum could therefore present voters with a more definite prospectus for what the new Scotland will look like.
The world has changed radically. We must not be afraid to think outside the UK prescribed box in defining Scottish solutions.
Craig,
I – and I expect many people south of the border – would be interested to know what criteria might be required for securing Scottish citizenship (or right of residence) in a future independent Scotland.
I can’t say what regulations a future independent Scotland might adopt, but it seems most unlikely there will be travel or settlement restrictions on English people. I would expect qualification for a Scottish passport to be 5 years residence.
Five years is a lot longer than it takes to qualify for the Scottish rugby team!
It is estimated that some 800,000 Scots born people now reside in other parts of the UK. No doubt these 800,000 will be delighted with any arrangement that effectively disbars them from acquiring a passport issued by the country of their birth.
If the country of their birth wont give them passports then presumably they will need UK passports – but why should the UK provide on demand passports to Scottish people who Scotland has declined to provide passports for?
Maybe Scotland could also refuse to issue passports to Scottish criminals or to Scottish people not in favor of the EU or Scottish people not in favor of the SNP.
It sounds like Scotland has much to teach the DPRK
I agree with Craig on this question.
After all, there were no travel, residence or voting restrictions on citizens of the Irish Republic even before UK accession in 1973
http://paperroom.ipsa.org/papers/paper_5321.pdf
Thanks H for ref to Soames Incident and Directoire, which I had not heard of. Reading the paper above reminds me how little I do know and so shall try to return to posting less often.
Glad to have been of help, fwl. Always happy to provide a genuine answer to a genuine question!
It is the once again the tyranny of Wales that foils our latest cunning plan, how long must we labour under this Welsh yoke?
The Scots voted to remain in both UK and EU, but if they had to choose, they would prefer devolution in UK rather than devolution in EU, so a new not-genuine independence referendum would be lost.
Instead of, or as well as, a “border referendum” there should be, now the Irish civil war is over, a unite north and south Ireland, within a united UK, referendum.
Dave
There is no evidence at all for your assertion of what Scottish people would prefer, but the answer will be determined by a second independence referendum
Not if a second EU referendum overturns this referendum. The petition has over a million signatures.
If Scotland can be made to keep going to the polls till you get the result you want then why not the rest of Britain?
You never win anything, Craig. You’re like Eddie Izzard, on the wrong side of everything and a perpetual loser.
This is what Craig is reluctant to acknowledge:
https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/24/how-left-remain-campaigners-sold-out-the-working-class-lesser-evilism-in-the-eu-referendum/
In their rush to abandon the Leave vote, however, Left Remainers have ironically contributed to the very conditions they rally against. Vacating the Leave argument has, in effect, meant abandoning huge swathes of the working class, who will be voting to leave, to the forces of reaction.
He’s like Bob Geldoff waving his middle finger at struggling working-class fishermen.
Alan :
What a load of tripe that article is. The 3rd to last paragraph blaming Varoufakis, Mason and Jones for not arguing the case against the EU bureaucrats and somehow conspiring with their neo-liberal capitalist agenda is pure lies. They’ve been arguing eloquently and passionately for months now for a remain vote in the context of fighting against the democratic deficit of the monolithic ‘monster’ (in Varoufakis’ words).
The paragraph before that one is a feeble attempt at denying the gruesome reality of the xenophobic and racist nature of much of the Leave campaign. There’s just no getting away from the reality that ‘Left Leavers’ have been in bed with very unpleasant quasi-fascists, in the same old deluded fantasy of smashing capitalism altogether. Varoufakis’ and Mason & Jones’ optimistic ideas of ‘taming the monster’ might have been seen as Utopian dreams, but they’d have been infinitely more attainable (and desirable) than your juvenile fantasies of smashing European capitalism altogether.
The referendum night rollercoaster was highly suspicious. The Sky poll; Farage and Johnson apparently conceding; then the jumping to conclusions after the Newcastle result… Something wasn’t right about the whole thing, in my opinion. All pre-planned so some individuals could make millions? I live in one of the supposedly Leave areas and and most people I knew were voting Remain. I just don’t buy the idea that more than half the voters wanted to leave the EU. Sorry, but I just don’t.
I have another interpretation of Paul Craig Roberts’ column – he is worried not that the British people are fobbed off but that they are going to realise the whole referendum was suspect or misguided and have a fully-informed change of heart. Roberts, I’d suggest, is desperate to get us out before that happens so that Washington can cement its power against a divided Europe, which I think has been the agenda at play in this referendum. I may be doing Roberts a disservice (and I do enjoy his writing) but it is naive to think he is free of a major agenda.
I too am suspicious of Paul Craig Roberts’s agenda and motivation. His “conversion”, after spending most of his lifetime and career(s) within the ranks of the establishment and various US elites, somehow seems too good to be true. Perhaps he is not all he seems?
Indeed, he might well be one of the many Trojan Horses inhabiting the alternative media and blogsphere.
When Boris initially joined Brexit he said an Out vote was the best way to secure a better deal to Remain in!
Exactly, spot on! Thus his first response to the press was” This isn’t the end of our relationship with Europe…” The back pedalling started immediately!” It seemed evident that he has no plan for what to do next!
Scotland would have to apply for EU membership.
One interesting fact is that the Republic of Ireland offers citizenship to people in Northern Ireland, and many take it up and travel on Irish passports. Irish citizens are EU citizens. So if Britain leaves the EU and nothing else happens, British people who happen to live in Northern Ireland willl remain EU citizens, or at least have the right to become such.
Maybe people from Gibraltar should go and settle in Northern Ireland for a while?
N
I predict that the EU will very quickly develop a doctrine which views Scottish membership as continuing. The EU attitude to Scottish independence will now be very different to what it was when the UK was a continuing EU member state.
Boris Johnson is a fucking joke.
I doubt he will be prime minister.
I have no doubt that he will be. Frightening, isn’t it?
With the crowd of political thugs he’s collected, he should be frightened as well. OTOH the Blairites will destroy as much as they can of any principled opposition, so I suppose the next move will involve burning tyres and looting.
In defence of my fellow Leave voters, I’d just suggest that what happens next would have happened anyway. Catalysis.
With the likes of Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith and Co running the country, I am not optimistic that quality of life is going to improve much for the vast majority of UK citizens in the short term at least. Rather the opposite, if anything.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the next PM is Gove. FWIW. Doesn’t matter much, really.
I can’t stand Johnson, but I think the Conservatives would be fools to pick anyone other than him for leader. I can see that he has charisma, although he makes me want to throw up. He’s like Stephen Fry crossed with Norman Bates.
Hi N_ I absolutely agree and now he will have to knuckle down, should he get the selecting nod/ appointment from the puppets on the 1922 committee. Cameron’s last sidestep has left the civil service with the largest task since???? there are so many knots that need unpicking and re knotting externally, plus the usual interference in education and health must carry on so they can look good, he won’t have much time left to have his quiff made storm proof.
“b” of Moon of Alabama was already talking about a campaign to get a second vote on Brexit early this morning: The #ReverseBrexit Campaign Has Begun.
While Moon of Alabama is a fruitbat, the BBC is edging in that direction too. How unfair that 16/17-year olds didn’t get a vote etc. The show ain’t over till the fat cat purrs…
Not sure why you feel so re; b. Not important but did you expect the panic in our streets even if exiting was a possibility, much less the certainty?
Some things look like a heart attack when adrenalin kicks, but others actually benefit the body politic from the Rush. Not much time to glean that benefit though. Time is the enemy of success in this case and certain parties would like to slow the process down.
I’ve said it before but it’s probably worth repeating: the game is not necessarily over, the ingenuity of politicians and jurists being infinite (including how Article 50 will play out in oractice).
I believe I’ve also already suggested on a previous thread that the terms and conditions negotiated for a UK exit might themselves become the subject of a second referendum, with acceptance equalling leave and rejection equalling remain.
Alternatively, the exit negotiations might themselves morph into a wider EU reform “en route”, the result of which might be put to a referendum (not necessarily only in the UK) – a kind of “Cameron renegotiation plus”
LOL ! The hybrid offspring of BREXIT 😀
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltJ4gaXIAAkj1-.jpg:large
So much for agent Cameron’s “one-nation Conservatism”. The EU referendum has exposed the apathy and miscommunication of a rich/poor divide that exists in Britain today, the ignorance of each other’s habits, thoughts and feelings, as if dwellers in different zones, different worlds. Struggling families have been left behind by the indifference and insensitivity of those who refuse to give and help improve the situation for the ‘have nots’ whose lives are on course to get progressively worse.
The knowledgeable ‘almspeople’ or dependents worked out from Mr Osborne’s mercurial March 2016 budget, a Machiavellian sleight of hand from politician whose leadership ambitions come before the welfare of the British people. Osborne’s allegiance is to The City not our country.
His last budget sought to weave a line into the fabric of society between the haves and have-nots. On one side of the line the haves are exposed to increasing economic opportunity, at the expense of the economically compromised on the other.
And Mr Cameron who dumped the ‘Big Society’ as quickly as he dumped his natural, everyday ‘for the common people’ website, ‘WebCameron’ when the going got tough and he was outed on academisation, privatisation, a cooked housing system geared to ‘rent grab’ and a privatised education system designed to change the cognitive map of young minds to accept their economic ideology. The rule that those who fall behind become defined and self-defined as losers.
I myself give you the reason why we took advantage of the ‘Cameron independence vote’ that gave us autonomy; the freedom to screw the ‘nasty party’ because a leopard never changes it’s spots.
Was it an informed vote or a vote for Trump…IOW’s ‘none of the above’?
When Cameron came to power with the coalition one of his claims was to be the “Greenest” government, ever.
After the Liberal-Democrats found themselves history,
Cameron told his government
to dump the green crap.
I wonder if the new prime minister will take up the green mantle?
Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffee have gone ahead with seeking a no-confidence vote against Corbyn as head of the Labour Party. The Guardian: Jeremy Corbyn faces no-confidence motion after Britain votes to leave EU: MPs across Labour party say they are ready to back move by Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey as leader criticised for lacklustre campaign.
Since Corbyn would certainly win a vote of party members that would follow a no-confidence vote by the MPs, what is the point of this exercise?
Ah this Margaret Hodge !
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clv1PgRXEAAHzJl.jpg:large
MACKY; Chime in anytime on the other face of bigotry.
A good idea of what the Blairites are aiming at can be gathered by reviewing their tactics in Scotland. Under the ultra Blairite leadership of Jim Murphy the party, which joined with the Tories to campaign against independence, lost every seat they held in the 2015 elections. It was that catastrophe in Scotland that ensured a Tory majority government.
If an election were held now almost every Blairite would lose his/her seat because almost every Labour constituency voted to leave the EU, while their MPs campaigned in favour of it.
Thatcher said that Blairism was her greatest and most enduring achievement. What she didn’t explain was that the movement is intended to kill off the Labour Party and end the threat of socialism in the country. Given that the Blairite MPs will be well rewarded for their treachery they have no incentive to do the honourable thing and resign their seats, now that their constituents have rejected them, or to adjust their views to conform with those of their constituents and the majority of party members.
The current coup would have been impossible in the past: the NEC and leader being elected by the membership in Conference, but Blair changed the rules giving the Parliamentary caucus the power to nominate candidates for the leadership.
If the coup goes according to plan Corbyn’s name won’t get on the ballot in the election following a vote against him in the caucus. That will lead to the quick death of the party, delivering its seats to UKIP and other parties.
Then Blair, Mandelson, Benn and their friends can coalesce with the Tories or join them in the government of national unity that I have been predicting since 2009.
You mean before the worker’s revolution that your fellow Marxist Leninists have been predicting since around 1867.
Corbyn failed to deliver the Labour Party’s firm policy on the EU – party’s usually get rid of leaders who fail.
How did he fail and whose side are you on ?
Well, the answer to your question may be that Mr Corbyn has seriously disappointed some of his erstwhile supporters and that there is a chance he might not now win a vote of party members.
After all, he has shown himself to be a pretty ineffectual opposition leader, hasn’t he – including in getting out the Labour vote for Remain.
Hope that answers your question, Lysias.
Jeremy Corbyn got a 75% Remain vote in his constituency
Margaret Hodges got 37.6% Remain vote in hers
Main points again in a nutshell;
http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/24/is-brexit-the-end-of-the-united-kingdom/
Mackay, it’s the end of the UK because Craig and Nikki want out. However, it is not the end of the world so keep calm and carry on.
Oh. They were raised in Lancashire? Deliscious…..
Tom Harris has described Brexit as a “great opportunity”, unlike you, Craig.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683265/Vote-Leave-boss-predicts-200m-Scots-Brexit-bonus
Mr Harris also called for First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP to stop “wasting time” pursuing a second independence referendum and get down to work in planning for the “brilliant new reality”.
Oh dear, no calm stroll to independence there, Craig.
Tom Harris is an utter nobody with zero influence on anything.
Ah, so that explains why I hadn’t heard of him previously 😉
A bit like you then, Craig.
Listen Tony, Magnums do NOT grow in your garden. They are manufactured in a factory in SW1. I do hope you can understand this crucial matter.
I won’t bore you with what’s going on in France right now, because I know you just love censorship and media black-outs…
Just wait for the next false flag, then you can wave your flag and say “Je suis cretin”.
You can do the face paint as well, if you want.
That sounds very interesting, Rob, and I should be grateful if you could identify your point a little more clearly and then, possibly, expand on it.
Do one.
Well there was “The Slaughter of the Horses”
involvement of the British/French and probably at least one other states group of actors.
There are the ongoing strikes in airlines/airtrafficcontrol/agriculture/schoolteaching/police/docks/underground/overgroundrail and so on
there is the 10-11% expressed unemployment as against the 5% expressed unemployment in the U.K.
both hiding the underemployed or non-signers-on.
There is the lowest approval rating of a president of France, since the days of the Reign of Terror,
there is the fact that the Economy of France is sinking,
the fact that almost nobody in France is currently enamored with the ways things are so CHAOTIC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
I might add, there is the FRENCH NUCLEAR PROBLEM.
This comes to a head, quite soon.
Picking up on this admitted false-flag operation after 61 years ‘the detonator went off in his pocket on the way to the theatre’ . . . ‘an attempt to persuade Britain not to leave'(no, not brexit)
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/not-chilcot-report/comment-page-2/#comment-605858
it’s only relevant as it does show that otherwise sensible & admirable governments DO have factions that manipulate, including with guns/bombs
Well there seems to be a load of Brits living there who now claim to be worried that France might kick them out. My suggestion is that as they love France so much they enrol in Légion Étrangère
Alan
I like your suggestion (as, I’m sure, would at least one other regular contributor to this blog) but I’m afraid the days when the Foreign Legion would take just about anyone are long gone.
“Beau Rob” doesn’t quite cut it.
FRENCH cement maker Lafarge ‘made deals with IS group in Syria’
http://www.france24.com/en/20160621-france-lafarge-islamic-state-group-jalabiya-syria
French cement maker Lafarge entered into deals with armed groups in Syria, including the Islamic State (IS) group, in order to protect its business interests in the country, French daily Le Monde reported Tuesday.
“Spengler” the very right wing columnist in Asia Times on Line has an interesting take in Brexit:
http://atimes.com/2016/06/britain-bests-brussels/
So does Mike Whitney at ICH, (which needs support):
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article44967.htm
Both prophecy important results from the vote to leave which appears to have inspired democrats (those people who promote popular sovereignty and responsible government) around the world.
The reaction in much of the media is premissed on the view that it really doesn’t matter very much whether those who take the decisions that shape our lives are elected or answerable to constituents. This is post modernism with a vengeance: democracy has become boring, the fact that it doesn’t work very well being a reason not for improving it but for dispensing with it and moving directly to rule by students mentored by Professors at prestigious Universities.
I must say that “Spengler” seems a singularly appropriate moniker for someone writing for a paper situated in the up-and-coming East.
Spengler is a Yank who has been writing for A Times, along with Pepe Escobar, for over ten years now.
The BBC this morning is relentless. One item after another talking down Brexit, framing it as a massive mistake, and pointing out only “problems”, not opportunities. There is no positive discussion about how we take the next step ahead, just doom and gloom.
We have to deal with the BBC.
So what is the plan – one Tory MP said we have got to elect a new leader and a new team and then decide what we need to do – so obviously the first thing is to sort out the Tory Party for 3 months.
It is abundantly clear that the Brexiters have no plan in any detail as to what is to happen next – if so where is it. The game was all about whipping up antagonism to immigrants and a plea to govern ourselves – but now in theory they have gained that power there is plan as what should be done next, apart from sorting out the Tory Party. it is a crime for companies to issue shares on a false prospectus – but we don’t even have the prospectus for Brexit just a rather vague ambition.
You tell us what the next steps are Anon1 rather than asking the BBC – it isn’t their job.
“You tell us what the next steps are Anon1 rather than asking the BBC – it isn’t their job.”
No it is not the so-called BBC’s job to present a fair and balanced dialogue about how we move forward after this decision.
It is the BBC’s job to keep whipping up the fear, to seek out those who regret voting Leave for interview, to present a scenario of doom and gloom so relentlessly that it becomes a reality.
The BBC is engaged in a massive propaganda effort to talk down this country’s ability to survive outside the EU. For what ends, we can only conclude it hopes for a second referendum.
It continues to sneer at those who made this decision, with items on the BBC news all of last evening presenting Leave voters as poor, grubby, stupid, racist inhabitants of deprived coastal towns – white trash basically. They have learned nothing.
Watching this coverage you would think a tiny minority of people had delivered this result, not over half the population.
We have made our democratic choice. Now we must proceed with untangling ourselves from the EU, which should begin in earnest next week, and it is the BBC’s duty to cover this process in a constructive manner instead of seeking revenge against those who failed to vote the way the metropolitan elite instructed them to.
You missed the question about what is the plan – other than to elect a Tory leader who will come up with one. If there was a plan on how Brexit was to proceed then I am sure that the media focus would change pretty quickly to discussing the workability of the plan and any options that it contained – the fact that there is no such plan is why the BBC has little alternative to speak to voters of all persuasions as to why they voted as they did. Johnson and Gove have said nothing whatsoever of any substance since the vote – when clearly votes of all persuasion want to know something about what is next.
So where’s the Article 50 application the. Brussels is waiting.
you have to get in there and sort it out, they can’t think straight after years of feeding on party political press releases. Now you got your Brexit, go help them, they’ve got lots to do in the next six month before chucking out time.
-You can point to positively marketing the expertise in tax avoidance and off shoring
-the ability to provide mercenaries to just about any place on earth, bar EU ex partners,
-your readiness to use taxpayers money to underwrite huge arms supplies to countries such as Saudi.
-your immaculately turned out experts in crowd control and state policing , just cite Bahrain and the successful.
-Your ability to fly planes and direct warfare in Yemen, without even looking involved
-etc.etc.
What do you think about Schulz’s threat to “make an example” of Britain, pour encourager les autres?
The sort of abusive relationship we should want to be a part of, or go back to?
what do you do as a teacher of 28, when faced with a particularly petulant naughty boy, anon1, do you give them treats for their behaviour? or do your try and discourage his behaviour spreading to the rest of class making it impossible to teach?
you must understand this unless you are somehow helping with a plot to undermine the EU with a rigged vote to destabilise and butter up the EU for TTIP TISA and a new war on their soil.
Just get in there and get talking to your MEP’s and ministers,, less time on blogs is more time for lobbying your kind of reforms.
You showed your hand there, Nevermind.
And the Guardian, especially Polly Toynbee.
This victory for Brexit is sooo sweet. The campaign revealed deep class divisions but only when Leave prevailed did the Remain camp show how deep is their hatred & contempt for Leave voters.
Now we have Scottish independence back on the agenda. Not the genuine independence that the British people just voted for, but a fake independence in which all fundamental lawmaking, social & financial regulations are outsourced to Brussels.
There is a simple test of independence that you can perform at any time. Ask yourself ‘do we have our own currency?’; ‘do we make our own laws?’; ‘do we regulate immigration & trade?’; ‘do we have our own language?’ If you can’t answer yes to most of these questions, then you don’t have sovereignty and you don’t have independence. To think otherwise is a sign of low intelligence.
The Scottish delusion that being a subordinate & subserviant member of an ever-invasive EU somehow is equivalent to having genuine independence is simply moronic. Exchanging political dominance of Wesminster for that of Brussels cannot, in any sense, be considered independence.
It’s clear that the Scottish are much less interested in genuine independence than they are in severing ties with their much hated southern neighbours. And Remainers have the odious audacity to call Leavers xenophobes & racists.
I say cut Scotland loose. Let Scotland become one of the 26 brides of the insidious German monster. Let Brussels control and ration her energy resources. Construct border posts and regulate all movements of people and trade with UK. Sever all ties as the Scots desperately want, shake hands and say ‘good riddance’.
Brilliantly put.
An excellent post if I may say so. Nobody can actually be so thick that they don’t understand it (well, nobody who doesn’t need professional help, anyway), so those who don’t understand it are those who won’t understand (deliberately).
There must be some Scot Nats who, though they don’t as yet have a political party to represent them, want an independent Scotland, out of the U.K. and out of the E.U. That’s not a view I share myself, since I would prefer an independent and united Britain. But it is a consistent view, I can respect it and if the majority of the people north of the border voted for it, that’s fair enough. But why the ‘independence within the E.U.’ crowd expect to have their views taken seriously I have absolutely no idea. It’s the joke that nobody laughs at. It’s also rather ironic that the second highest ‘Remain’ vote outside London came from the part of the country that’s been banging on about ‘independence’ for so long. You really have got to wonder.
I’ve just been over to Stoke where I was born to replace my Skoda Yeti. That area had one of the highest votes for independence in the whole country. So I asked the salesman:
“Do you expect the supply of Czech-made cars to dry up any time soon?”
“Er, no … V.W. group sell 350,000 units a year in Britain, the Germans aren’t going to stop that”.
Part of the problem is that too many people take the Junkers, the Blairs, Mandelsons and Ashdowns too seriously. Probably not as seriously as they take themselves, poor sods, but too seriously nonetheless. Their bluff needs to be called. Instead, people speak of ‘negotiations’. Negotiations aren’t necessary. We are now independent and the British danegeld should ceases forthwith. All Europeans can continue to come here visa-free as tourists and, unless Spain and various other places don’t want British tourists over there spending their dosh, British people can visit the continent on the same basis. If people want to come here from Europe and work, however, they need a work visa and a job. The Europeans can reciprocate on that one if they want – and they probably will; why not. That’s it; what’s the problem? There isn’t one. Everybody who was buying and selling stuff yesterday can buy and sell stuff tomorrow. Unless, out of peek, ego or the over-blown self-importance that only professional parasites can muster, the Junkers and co. interpose themselves between those buyers and sellers and start causing some aggro. The problem with ‘entering into negotiations’ is that it just encourages them.
I hadn’t seen that despite the shameless milking of her death for political purposes for a whole week prior to the referendum, Jo Cox’s constituency actually voted Leave.
That means all the resulting nasty speculations were fraud, her death had no influence, whilst holding kippers in Lowestoft did.
Some reactions from der Spiegel.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/boris-johnson-der-mann-der-am-brexit-schuld-ist-a-1099646.html
the calm stroll to become a German national, how many will now emigrate, anon1?, and have an educated guess who that will be, yes indeed, your smartest brains will find somewhere else to live were neighbours still matter.
http://www.spiegel.de/video/brexit-folgen-britin-in-berlin-will-deutschen-pass-video-1684548.html
Did you see the German article (I forget which rag) that said they should not be allowed to do this to “us” (=Germany)? Rather gave the game away.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Euro.
Ein massive subsidy for the privilege of buying our cars.
A DIVIDED NATION
A week after her brutal death, Jo Cox’s district votes to leave the EU
http://qz.com/716451/a-week-after-her-brutal-death-jo-coxs-district-votes-to-leave-the-eu/
A week after British parliamentarian and pro-Europe campaigner Jo Cox was brutally shot and killed, her district voted to leave the European Union (EU) in Britain’s historic referendum. Voters in Kirklees voted to leave by a margin of 55% to 45%, following a turnout of 70% in the district.
Flowers, teddy bears, and notes were laid outside a polling station in Cox’s hometown, Batley. Cox was shot and stabbed after meeting with constituents on June 16. Two days later, Thomas Mair was charged with her murder. When asked by the court to give his name, he said: “My name is death to traitors. Freedom for Britain,”
Two days prior to the referendum, Cox’s widower Brendan and their two children led a vigil on what would have been her 42nd birthday. Thousands joined the family in paying tribute to the MP, who believed in the benefits of immigration and integration and campaigned fiercely to stay in the EU.
Kirklees’ results echoed the rest of the country’s decision, which backed Brexit by a margin of 52% to 48%. While Labour councillors were clearly disappointed with the result, a small group of UKIP supporters in the town cheered the result.
Well,
I suppose that highlights the disconnect between the Labour members of Parliament
and the people who used to vote for them.
In its present form, I expect the Labour Party is
irrelevant
I wonder how Keith “Cushions” Vaz would fare,
should he be inclined to offer himself up for a vote of confidence
by his constituents?
I wonder how the 29 Tories who cheated at the last GE will fare in their constituencies once this becomes gfull public knowledge, do you think they have cause to ask for a GE? or should they just take it like a dog, Michael.
You are so clever please tell us.
I suggest that any Member of the House of Parliament who has bee found guilty of fraud or of fiddling their expenses or
of election fraud or of child sexual abuse should be locked up in the Tower of London at the pleasure of the Queen of England.
I wonder what the result in Scotland would really have been had Nicola not instructed the Braveheart Cult to vote remain.
I suggest that the Snats do everything they can to engineer a General Election and then secede like the Shinners did in 1918.
Petition calls for second EU referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
more than a million have signed
but it is unclear if all these persons were entitled to vote in the recent Referendum,
some of them could be from different lands?
I don’t think even the Tories would be so downright underhand as to make the people vote again after they have given their decision. The people have spoken and the people must be respected whether we like what they say or not. Anything else would undermine the very foundations of democracy.
Fred – I think you may be underestimating the venality of the ruling classes.
There is plenty of evidence that the EU despises democracy. The British political classes appear to have moved to a scorched earth policy by acting to make itself effectively leaderless – thus making it impossible to actually move forward with exiting the EU. Don’t be surprised to see a period of infighting that produces no resolution followed by a general election with an absence of candidates with the ability and motivation to carry out the will of the people.
The media and vocal empty vessels are likely to try and persuade the population that the country is infested by narrow minded racists whose opinions are either too stupid or too evil to be worthy of respect.
And nothing to stop multiple registrations under different emails. In any case, they’ve a long way to go to reach 17 million. 🙂
I’ve created a petition at https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions, please sign it https://petition.parliament.uk/…/sponso…/bvLoKAvbE12D7xfcsqh
I was horrified to see the result of the referendum yesterday, and I hope you were too.
In my opinion there was a democratic deficit in the referendum, and on those grounds I have created a petition through the UK Government’s official channels. Please click the link, https://petition.parliament.uk/…/sponso…/bvLoKAvbE12D7xfcsqh, and forward the link to anyone you think may sign it, in as many ways as you can (Forums, facebook, twitter, reddit, emails, etc)
Thank you
LOL
This is like Ireland got from the EU, “Vote wrong and we’ll make you vote again until you vote the way we want.”
That’s why we’ll vote exit again, next time.
Vote early and vote often.
In fact, Off Guardian just published this:
https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/25/if-at-first-the-ptb-dont-succeed-just-have-another-referendum/
If at first the PTB don’t succeed….just have another referendum.
We’ve seen it so many times before, which is why we voted out!
Let me respond your petition request as politely as possible – I would not wipe my arse on,much less sign it.
Please do let me know if my response was too oblique for you.
No, it was perfectly clear, thanks
Another crack of the whip is more painful than the first…
There was no “democratic deficit” in this referendum (or the previous one). Everyone had the opportunity to vote, and the turnout was incredible. The question was clear. The outcome was decisive.
Starting a petition to ignore the democratically determined outcome truly would be an undermining of the democratic process. The decision was fairly made, and must be respected and acted upon promptly. To cheat the people of their choice as has been done in the repeat referendums in other EU countries would be to completely disenfranchise the electorate. As would delaying the process or trying to dilute the action into something less than the question that was asked.
OMG – was Camerons tearful “resignation” just a ploy to delay the required Article 50 application, and kick in a Plan B to reverse the Brexit vote? Its clear Corbyn has been Brexit all along but surely not Mandevilson too?.
If i were in charge, I would not do any negotiating.
I’d just say the United kingdom is an independent land, you can either trade with us or not trade with us, if you do not like us piss up your kilt and keep the fuck out.
Brexit referendum: EU ministers press UK for quick exit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626409
EU states have urged Britain to hold speedy talks on leaving the bloc after it voted to end its membership in a historic referendum.
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said negotiations should begin as “soon as possible”.
He made the comments after an urgent meeting of the six EU founder members to discuss the decision.
We’re the EU’s largest single export market. There is no question that trade will not continue on favourable terms.
BREAKING: France orders Britain to trigger Article 50 and choose new PM ‘within days’
FRANCE today told Britain to appoint a new prime minister within “a few days” and to immediately quit the EU by soon triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683313/Brexit-vote-France-Britain-trigger-Article-50-EU-choose-new-Prime-Minister-within-days
It looks like Francois is getting emotional.
Hollande is a dying duck. He ought to be concentrating on how he is going to frustrate his own country’s slide towards democracy.
Craig, lets hope you can enjoy your calm stroll without having it rudely interrupted by the rumblings of Russian Bear bombers overhead or roars of hedge hopping cruise missiles flying by on the way to deposit their payloads on Faslane and Coulport.
State Department Syria Memo: Setting the Stage for War with Russia
By Bill Van Auken
Secretary of State John Kerry met Tuesday morning with several of the State Department “diplomats” who drafted an internal dissent memo calling for the US to launch air strikes against the Syrian government, supposedly as a means of bringing an end to the five-year-old war that has claimed well over a quarter of a million lives and driven over half the Syrian population from their homes.
The New York Times reported that Kerry and 10 of 51 mid-level operatives who signed the memo “engaged in a surprisingly cordial conversation” over the memo, which was leaked to the media virtually before the ink on it was dry.
There was nothing surprising about the tone of the meeting. Traveling in Europe when the memo surfaced in the press last week, Kerry described it as “an important statement.”
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/06/24/pers-j24.html
Yes, those Russkies are a really nasty bunch aren’t they. Just think of all the countries they’ve dropped bombs on over the last 15 years, all the leaders they’ve decided “must go”. Their ships are sailing round the Gulf of Mexico, massive bases are built along the Mexican and Canadian borders and they can’t see a sabre without rattling the bloody thing. And that bastard Putin, coming over here, standing next to a gurning British P.M. and threatening us with economic warfare if we vote for independence. I live in fear of them myself.
BREAKING NEWS !!! – Labour to DESELECT all Oxbridge (all Bliarites recruited at Uni by MI5 dons) Labour Remain MPs who failed to carry their constituencies, petition to be put to PLP on Tuesday.
The UNITED KINGDOM will risk losing access to Europe’s common market if it votes to leave the EU,
French President François Hollande said, warning that Brexit would be “irreversible”.
“The departure of a country that is geographically, politically and historically part of the EU would have extremely serious consequences,” Hollande said.
“At stake is more than the future of the United Kingdom in the European Union,” he added. “It is the future of the European Union.”
http://www.france24.com/en/20160622-brexit-irreversible-france-hollande-warns-referendum
I think he is shitting himself.
“I think he is shitting himself.”
I can’t see why. Hollande’s other problems are more serious for him, and in any case, Hollande no longer runs the country. It’s mainly Valls. France’s attitudes toward Brexit are not be separated from those of their EU allies.
There’s no reason why trade shouldn’t continue as it is now. Hollande’s a tit. The sooner they learn to live without British money, however, the better.
He needs to understand that nothing stops trade. If he doesn’t understand that, somebody should point out to him how successful the attempt to stop people using illegal drugs has been. There’s a demand for the stuff, people buy it and all the attempts by agencies of all the nations on earth fail to stop that trade. I can’t see any petulant attempt by France to stop Europeans trading as they do now, which will have none of the ardour of the attempt to interdict drug traffic, succeeding.
Trade continues, keep calm and get on with it.
I wonder if Mr Jeremy Corbyn is secretly pleased with the outcome of the referendum?
After all, he has been an anti-marketeer for all of his political life and his endorsement of the Remain camp was generally seen as less than enthusiastic.
I suspect he voted leave!
Perhaps the outcome of the referendum vote in Northern Ireland will increase the likelihood of a consensual and therefore peaceful reunification of Ireland?
Can anyone explain why the Lipless Wonder, David Cameron was rubbing Samantha’s back as he retreated into No 10 after his tearful resignation speech?
If only Cameron had chosen someone other than Blair as his role model.
This guy deserves to go, if for no other reason, that he did not have the balls to debate head-on during the referendum