1,137 thoughts on “My Metropolitan Police Evidence on Torture and Extraordinary Rendition”

• 

  Alcyone: Barbarians at the gates June 12, 2016 at 23:51

  How many young Afghans would give an arm and a leg to leave the Taliban behind and go and live in the US of A, no matter how violent that country (America, and here I include psychological violence), is!

  Of course behind the good Taliban remain Pakistan and it’s utterly evil ISI. Not to mention the sickos, Saudi Arabia and their filthy money. God gave oil to many of the wrong guys. Of course, in this country we’ve managed, even excelled, at frittering it away. This island nation would’ve sunk in the Thatcherite days if it hadn’t been for oil. And today it’s financial services that has us by our balls and ovaries.

  I’m all for reclaiming our country out of Europe and making a new start of putting men (yes JSD, women too) and materials together and finally getting kicked into the 21st century.

  • 

    Herbie June 13, 2016 at 00:06

    “I’m all for reclaiming our country out of Europe”

    Ooooh.

    Ain’t that a bit nationalist.

    Fred won’t be pleased.

    • 

      Alcyone June 13, 2016 at 00:20

      Give up Herbs, It’s all too subtle for you.

      Btw what does your guru Chomsky have to say about the Islamisation of Europe?

      And also btw don’t forget Fred was on the winning side–Scotland staying in the Union. And that is how it will remain.

      Now stop persisting on bullying Fred; it just erodes your credibility.

      • 

        Herbie June 13, 2016 at 00:30

        Hmmm.

        You don’t think that a Brexit will put some pressure on the Union?

        Do you know what you think.

        • 

          Alcyone: Hmmmm x 2/No limit June 13, 2016 at 00:36

          It is best to cross bridges when we get to them, but mark my words.

          And give credit to Fred for his good judgment, particularly given the oil prices.

        • 

          Alcyone: what does your guru Chomsky have to say about the Islamisation of Europe? June 13, 2016 at 00:39

          Are you avoiding? Or do you have to go look it up?

          Anyway, good night and swet dreams about an independent Scotland

        • 

          Herbie June 13, 2016 at 00:52

          Fred’s argument against Scottish independence was based on his hatred of the term nationalism, which even Chomsky didn’t apply to Scottish independence.

          He’s fixated and obsessed by it, digging up whatever he can find to slay the beast of nationalism.

          Sancho Panza.

          But nationalism has got nothing to do with it.

          Scottish independence is simply a function of Scotland’s very different economy not wanting to be dragged in directions inappropriate to it by England’s financial services economy.

          And that’s the split in the world as well.

          Productive economies against bankers.

        • 

          Herbie June 13, 2016 at 01:00

          Haven’t a clue what he says.

          But the Islamisation of Europe as you call it, is an arrangement with Turkey to resettle primarily Kurds who are a nuisance to his plans.

          The Germans have discussed this issue at length in their media.

          Hardly a secret, in Germany or anywhere else in Europe.

          Is it only becoming an issue in UK media now?

• 

  Mark Golding June 13, 2016 at 00:13

  Orlando shooting – Another person known to the intelligence services.

  Annie Machon gives us an important insight which I have highlighted in a grab of her post here:

  At the time, as the news was breaking, I was somewhat puzzled about what I could contribute – surely this was just another ghastly massacre by the usual gun-toting crazy that America seems to spawn so regularly? After all, it seems that the Second Amendment is the last right standing from the US constitution, after all the others have been eviscerated as a result of the “war on terror” and the social friction caused by the financial melt-down of the US economy?

  However, with a little thought on a mellow European Sunday, I could see a number of threads coming together, which I explored during the interview. I would like to develop some of them further in this article.

  At the time I was interviewed, few hard facts had been confirmed about the shooting – merely a conservative estimate of the number of dead and wounded, and the fact the gunman had been killed. Everything else was pure speculation. That did not stop much of the Western media from jumping to conclusions – that this must be an ISIS-inspired attack and therefore Muslim terrorism, by our current Western definition.

  I have a problem with this current usage. When working as an intelligence officer with MI5 in the 1990s – at the height of the religious civil war being waged between the Protestants and the Catholics in Northern Ireland, our working definition was that “terrorism” was the use of violence to achieve political aims. So “terrorism” has never been a purely Muslim-originated concept, no matter how the USA has chosen to define it since 9/11.

  The reason I am making this rather obvious point is that the USA, particularly, has always engendered some rather unsavoury domestic “terrorist” groups, motivated by Christian or cult fanaticism – think the Branch Davidians, or the Christian fundamentalists murdering doctors and blowing up abortion clinics, or white supremacists terrorising black communities or blowing up FBI offices such as the Oklahoma bombing of 1995, which was initially blamed on Middle Eastern terrorism. If that is not the use of violence to achieve political aims, then our intelligence agencies need to change the definition of terrorism.

  As the shootings in the Pulse nightclub in Florida specifically targeted a LGBT crowd, it is just as feasible that the gunman could have fundamentalist Christian beliefs that urged him to target this community as some ISIS-inspired jihadi. After all, we have seen similar attacks in the UK, with the London nail bomber targeting gay nightclubs in 1999.

  Yet the former is, to this day, widely seen as a mass killing, a “rampage shooter” or a madman, and treated as a criminal, whereas a Muslim committing the same acts for similarly bigoted reasons is automatically deemed to be a terrorist. And we all know that “terrorism” is a unique form of “eviltude” that immediately exposes the suspect to greater legal penalties at the very least and assassination at the worst end of the scale, US citizen or not.

  Terrorism is a crime – pure and simple – and it should be treated as a crime. Muslim suspects of such crimes should not be kidnapped, tortured, held in isolation for years, or subject to military tribunals with no real right to defence, any more than Christian, atheist or any other suspects should be. Nor should specifically “Muslim” terrorism be the excuse used to strip away all our basic and hard-won civic freedoms and human rights in our own countries, yet that is what has been happening in the unending “war on terror”.

  The UK went through this debate in the 1980s and 1990s – at the height of the Provisional IRA and Loyalist paramilitary bombing campaigns across the UK – which was another religious-based terrorist war, as I mentioned before. It also – at least from the PIRA side, received the bulk of its funding from the American Irish diaspora. In fact, despite the peace process in Northern Ireland signed with the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, this funding from America only finally dried up in the aftermath of 9/11.

  And what of the third point in the title – the mental health issue? I mention this because there was a recent case in London of a knife-wielding man frenziedly attacking commuters in an underground railway station last year. The reporting at the time declared that he had been shouting “this is for Syria” – as he attacked his fellow travellers. At the time everyone assumed he was another radicalised jihadi carrying out a lone wolf attack. Indeed, even people at the scene seemed convinced. One witness cried out “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv“, a heartfelt sentiment that went viral over social media.

  This story was headline news in the UK at the time. The trial recently reached its conclusion, and it now appears that the perpetrator had serious mental health issues. These may have latched onto jihadi terminology, but the motivation was not terroristic.

  The guy probably needed an earlier intervention by health professionals, but he slipped through the cracks. That does not make him a terrorist though – no matter what he said in his frenzy – and yet this conclusion certainly did not get the front page headlines the initial attack received.

  Let us also look at the so-called “lone wolf” attacks that have happened across Western countries over the last few years – in Canada, London, Australia, the USA, Denmark – as well as the Paris and Brussels attacks. Many of the protagonists were already on the radar of the Western intelligence agencies, but because they are drowning in a tsunami of information garnered for the mass surveillance of us all, these crucial nuggets of real intelligence were swamped.

  Even worse, it appears that many of the people subsequently fingered as the perpetrators had already been approached by the intelligence agencies, as appears to be the case in Florida too.

  So, how does this all come together? There is not doubt that genuine psychopaths or sadists are attracted to terrorist as well as criminal gangs to give free rein to their tendencies – ISIS is an absolutely horrifying example of this. But the ideology of such groups can also attract from a distance the mentally fragile, who can become useful idiots or delusional followers, or vulnerable individuals who can even be manipulated by law enforcement. Add into the mix fundamentalist religion, cult, or racial supremacy beliefs and it all gets too messy, too fast.

  And yet…. all these groups use terror to achieve their goals, but only a few are deemed to be terrorists rather than criminals – and we all know now that anyone labelled a terrorist faces far higher penalties than these other categories of crime.

  Intelligence agencies are there to protect our national security – ie our nation’s integrity and its very existence. As I have said for many years now, such threats include imminent invasion, as Britain faced during the Second World War, or global annihilation as we all faced during the Cold War.

  The random attacks of terrorist – or criminal groups or mentally ill people – cause trauma to the country and the communities in which they occur, but they do not threaten our country’s very survival.

  We need to clarify our thinking urgently, both around the definitions applied to such crimes and to the proportionality of the response we make. This will allow us to preserve and strengthen the concept of the rule of law and the notion of democracy under which we all hope to live.

  Thank-you Annie – Much love.

  • 

    Alcyone June 13, 2016 at 00:33

    Thank you for what exactly Mark? A long-winded piece with no particular revelation?

    I’d also be rather more private about coveying my love, rather thanleaving it all over the place, as it risks becoming disingenuous!

    • 

      bevin June 13, 2016 at 01:59

      On the contrary, Alcyone, as the piece I posted below points out, Annie is very perceptive in seeing that there are clear links between the CIA manufactured ‘jihadism’ that appeals to these lone wolves, madmen who claim just before dying that they are agents of Qaeda or ISIS, and the evangelical protestantism so prevalent in the USA. Those like the Oklahoma City bombers, the Branch Davidians and numerous other terroristic militias and gunmen who were the terrorists de jour of the pre 9/11 era.

      • 

        nevermind June 13, 2016 at 09:04

        Thanks Mark G, for posting Annie’s missive.
        Everything about the Orlando killing sounds wrong and desperate.
        The media is desperate to pin this on ISIS, it seems that any incident is now being used to make out its ISIS, our proxy in Syria, or Putin’s Russia.

        First, the attacker apparently was interviewed three times about ISIS and his allegiances,support or other for those fakes.
        -well, if he worked as a security in a defences contractors he would be, being a Muslim these sort of ‘checks’ in the US are the done thing, normal.
        One of his past mates was interviewed on Radio 4 saying that he had problems with his first marriage, that he was beating his wife.
        -Why, I asked myself, would a young man with a wife and children beat up his wife, he had a secure job? what happened in his past, was he in effect swinging both ways, was he in the closet?

        Why would such a simple possibility not even mentioned? because he is a Muslim? because it does not fit into our agenda’s, perceptions and propaganda goals?

        Did the FBI monitor his computer like they do with so many of their interviewees? They’ve form and its known.
        -How did he pick his target? was he present in the club before?

        Then we are subjected to some US snitch fury on radio four who makes out that ‘these gunmen can walk into our schools and shoot up our kids’.

        This is outrageous, because one single incident of many committed by white bored/mad/psychologically flawed white teenagers with ACCESS TO DADDYS GUNS.

        This is another NRA rifle association induced killing, those who campaign for more guns on the streets are responsible for this massacre.

        The news increasingly sounds like Goebbels spits, the BBC is a propaganda mouthpiece for NATO and its pathetic grey men in the background, those who will run first when the shit hits the fan.

        where is anonymous when you need them to rattle the cage?

  • 

    Mark Golding June 13, 2016 at 00:46

    The US must win in Syria.

    The Syrian center stage has unfolded a ruse encompassing the terrorist group ISIS. From my own early 80’s experience ISIS/ISIL is a proxy ‘army’ created by British intelligence based on knowledge gained from the war to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and to bring about an independent republic enclosing all of Ireland – .ISIS is organised by the CIA and funded by the Saudis.

    Clearly ISIS is the mariage de raison for America in Syria and whose pursuit is to annul the forces of the Syrian government, Hezbollah and Quds without breaking the mutable thread with Russia developed by John Kerry after the abortive bribe attempt by Bandar Bush.

    • 

      giyane June 13, 2016 at 04:05

      The US will never win in Syria. They have triggered a worldwide revulsion at state-deceit, state-terror, state propaganda, state-destruction of infrastructure, state-removal of all the things a state stands for.
      This goes across all nations, religions, social classes, political ideologies.

      If the US has for many decades been a pariah state, it is now seen universally as a pirhana.

• 

  bevin June 13, 2016 at 01:47

  Not only known to the Security Services but a long time employee of G4S
  The following from The Angry Arab puts the matter of homophobia among wahhabis into perspective. Asad AbuKhalil points out that the homophobia of these ‘jihadists’ is largely borrowed from fundamentalist christian evangelicals:

  “Shooting in Florida: Christian homophobia and Islamist homophobia in the West
  “There is no question that Islamism in Western societies has been influenced by the tone and themes of Christian fundamentalism, namely in the issue of homophobia. I have noticed this back in 1993, in the aftermath of the World Trade Center bombing. I had read the speeches of the “blind cleric”, `Umar `Abdul-Rahman, and noticed that his rhetoric borrows from the rhetoric of Christian fundamentalist kooks in the US, especially his pernicious homophobia. He was far more concerned with homosexuality than I read in the rhetoric of Islamists back home. Christian and Islamist and Jewish fundamentalists in Western countries often share bigotry and misogyny and often work together on “moral” issues. I also have written back in 1993 about Homosexuality in the history of Ararb/Islamic civilization and I note that what passes in today’s world as “Islamic issues” is often importation of Western Christian victorian values. Modern Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia, for example, has element of Christian puritanism that have been alien to mainstream Islam. You could get away with poetry in the 9th and 10th century in Baghdad or Damascus which could get you beheaded in today’s Saudi Arabia. So Islamists in the US, I argue, are influenced by the rhetoric of Christian extremists. We should be concerned over homophobia wherever it comes from and if you surf the US channels you will find homophobia to be pervasive on Christian channels. That should have raised alarm a long time ago. I should also remind you that Western countries when they occupied Middle East lands imposed their Christian rigid homophobia on the region by imposing the codification of criminalization and categorization of homosexuality (See Joseph Massad’s Desiring Arabs on that). Middle East media have a role to play: but not a single Arabic newspaper, OTHER THAN AL-Akhbar of Lebanon, combats homophobia and writes sensitively about gays and lesbians (which is ironic because Western media wrongly refer to Al-Akhbar as “Hizbullah paper” when Hizbullah is not in any way opposed to homophobia). The media of the “moderate Arab governments” are complicit in creating a climate of hostility against gays and lesbians and they still routinely refer to gays as “sexual deviants” but that never bothers US embassies which raise hell if they encounter articles critical of Israel.

  “PS Of course, I don’t know anything about his ideology but I am here accepting (too quickly?) the assumption of US media. ”

  All of these crimes are the result of imperialists employing mercenaries, crudely re-labeled as islamists, to pursue geo-political objectives. Muslims are horrified by these caricatures of their faith dreamed up by Orientalists in the employee of Washington.

  • 

    Loony June 13, 2016 at 10:09

    I was wondering how long it would be before I read the kind of argument that you have presented. You have put me out of my suspense in about the kind of time frame I was expecting.

    If I understand correctly the latest shootings are a product of Islamic homophobia which itself is a product of Christian fundamentalism. In order to maintain the integrity of this argument it is surely necessary to introduce to the wider public the concept of Siderodromophobia.

    Apparently this is a word used to describe a fear of trains and is necessary in order to explain the Madrid train bombings and the London tube bombings. I am not familiar with the technical “phobic” terms to describe a fear of rock concerts, Christian churches in Pakistan, restaurants, off duty soldiers, Nigerian schoolgirls, Kenyan shopping centers,and commercial airliners.

    I fear that there may be too many unusual phobic prefixes in order for this strategy to gain wider purchase in the public mind. I am also unaware of any fundamentalist Christian groups who habitually rail against trains. Perhaps the Westboro Baptist Church could be inveigled into providing a useful quote.

    Either way you have your work cut out to maintain the intellectual viability of this line of argument, so I will leave you to it.

• 

  glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 02:32

  I have to admit to not inconsiderable disappointment at the lack of any argument on the EU referendum issue on this blog.

  John Major said last weekend that this is much more important than a General Election, and I agree – it’s the most important issue of our time where the opinions of ordinary people (rather than the Establishment) will significantly sway events for the entire world, for generations to come.

  I would certainly like to see the issue argued here. Otherwise, I fear, it is being assumed that those likely to favour Brexit are simply racist morons who can barely read anyway and are impervious to reason. This dismissive arrogance is the single reason a Brexit is now on the cards. One might equally well argue that Remainers are neo-cons, corporate stooges, huge fans of Blair and Cameron, and will unquestionably follow every instruction of the US President.

  Craig – you stated that no further posts would issue from you until after the referendum. I sincerely wish that you reconsider, and actually argue for the case you favour – just as you did in the Scottish Independence referendum.

  • 

    giyane June 13, 2016 at 04:13

    Since the EU referendum is only a distraction from the main global issue of USUKIS neo-colonising the Middle East, and it is totally irrelevant anyway because all the existing deals will remorph back into place after Brexit, it’s good to see the Robin Hood of this blog stitched up inside a stag, breaking into Nottingham castle with his bow and arrow.

    Bullseye! Bullshit! Don’t take your eye off the apple for one second. The apple is US hegemony by Centcom of the Middle East awkward mob, i.e the Muslims.

    Will they be sold out by Daesh and Al Qaida. I don’t think so. Daesh and Al Qaida goin to spend a long time rotting in the Sherriff’s dungeons.

    • 

      nevermind June 13, 2016 at 09:35

      All good questions Rob.
      I was near your place last week and talked to a few expats and French. The expats are miffed because nobody considers or interviews them at all.

      The Breton merely waved his arm and said ‘boeuf’, so what, just leave. One comment was that the Stalag two fence in Calais would disappear and border controls for tourists be sharpened up /take far longer. No more free travel for us.
      Now Cameron raised the issue of pensions and that no mechanism has been agreed, because nobody is talking anymore bar the hyperbole lies and innuendo that is coming out.

      The majority of British are of Anglo Saxon decent, the immigrated between 600AD and now from all over Europe, settled here, shared their abilities and inventions. In the 14th century we were trading all over Europe, from Konstantinopel to Bergen and Kiev, the Baltic, North sea, and the Mediterranian, the Hanse was the first international trading association in Europe from which most of the other exploits and histories derived. We are part and parcel, integral to the EU.

      Brexit means distance, misunderstandings and possible confrontation over issues in future, not cooperation a la Norway or Switzerland.
      Some 1.5 million Irish people live here and our borders could become EU borders, what is their opinion.
      We have heard much from those want to leave, but those EU nationals who already made the EU a multicultural reality and live in each others countries have had not much say whatsoever.
      We also had many wars in Europe, well not during the last 60 years when the statutes of Rome and the mismanagement of Commissioners ran the EU, but thats down to our party politicians and their self serving agendas, not us. If we, the voters, would be asked some more and had the choice of commissioners, are not faced with some appointed yes man, the development today would have looked different.

      What is becoming much clearer is that the EU will have to spend some money on its very own security, as NATO can’t really be trusted anymore to do the job. Europe is not going to be rail roaded into a nuclear war because some military industry paid NATO stooges are up for it.
      Time to get some control over these freaking nutjobs, publicise their rabid self and make the industrial military complex the laughing stock it deserves to become.
      They have bled economies dry with their fear creation, complicity and underhand arming of all sides.

      HAVE YOUR FREAKING WAR IN ALASKA, you nutters, not here Europe is not your warbitch.!

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 10:44

        You seem to misunderstand a basic fact. No-one cares what Europe or Europeans think. You will do exactly as your US masters instruct you to do. Sure you are free (for the moment) to write empty slogans, but in terms of policy you will execute instructions received from Washington.

        If Washington orders you to support Ukrainian Nazis then you will support Ukrainian Nazis
        If Washington orders you to place combat troops on the Russian border then you will place combat troops on the Russian border.
        If Washington orders you to host large numbers of migrants with unknown backgrounds then you will obey
        If Washington orders you to reduce interest rates to zero irrespective of the economic damage caused then you will obey.
        If Washington orders you to impose sanctions on Russia then you will impose sanctions on Russia.

        Do you understand? Hopefully not, Washington prefers it that way. If you do understand then you will either be smeared or ignored.

  • 

    Jim June 13, 2016 at 11:50

    There was some discussion of the subject recently Glen, I remember posting a link to Yanis Varoufakis giving his strong support for remain, ‘taming the monster’ being his memorable sound-bite. There is an excellent conversation between Paul Mason and Varoufakis (hosted by the Guardian) on YouTube I’ll find the link to. Again, Varoufakis is passionately for ‘in’ but gives far more detail in this conversation for his reasons. Good stuff!

    • 

      Jim June 13, 2016 at 12:08

      The Varoufakis-Mason conversation for anyone interested :

      https://youtu.be/md6_WfF9Ky0

    • 

      glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 12:13

      Hello Jim – that must have occurred while I was away (unless I just missed it). A few notable comments here and there is all very good, but why are we not having a full discussion on this hugely important subject? I thought that was what this blog is for.

      Varoufakis also gave an interesting talk on R4’s “Start The Week” a month or so back.

      What I’m really missing is input from the blog host, who has a huge amount of experience and insight into international affairs. He made a short statement a while back that said, more or less, that staying in would be for the best, and there would be no more discussion until after the referendum – a position I find difficult to understand, particularly given the huge amount of coverage and argument in favour of independence at the Scottish referendum.

      Personally, I’m exceedingly ambivalent but ultimately feel we should leave.

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 12:52

        I can’t remember offhand Craig’s reason for being reluctant to have the subject up as one for discussion, it does seem strange though.
        After listening to lots of opinions, I’m definitely a remainer myself. I’ve got a horrible feeling the vote could very easily go the other way though.

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 13:05

          It looks like LEAVE is the most likely outcome right now. There is a horrendous line-up of money-grubbers, war criminals, crooks and liars (not to mention the Establishment itself, but I repeat myself) urging us to vote REMAIN, and the highly unattractive actions of an elitist, corporate/bankster and power-mad executive in the EU which gives little cause to REMAIN.

          Given the LEAVE camp is quite well populated by older people, who actually bother voting rather than merely holding a vague opinion, and the gathering momentum of the LEAVE campaign, we should not be surprised if we get out. Simply dismissing those expressing deep dissatisfaction as uneducated idiotic racists is not a convincing argument.

        • 

          fred June 13, 2016 at 13:25

          “I can’t remember offhand Craig’s reason for being reluctant to have the subject up as one for discussion, it does seem strange though.”

          Too many people with good memories around.

          Oh how they lambasted Labour for sharing a platform with the Conservatives.

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 13:40

          “Oh how they lambasted Labour for sharing a platform with the Conservatives.”

          Indeed – if we wanted an explanation of what Cameron meant with his campaign song “We’re all in it together”, there it was! It showed the neo-con agenda was faithfully being supported by all parties, they were all Establishment stooges, and certainly not to be trusted.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 13:59

          You mean money grubbing neo-con war criminals like Yanis Varoufakis? You mean you’re on the side of cuddly social justice advocates like Gove, Farage and Johnson? Oh, I see the logic now. ?

        • 

          fred June 13, 2016 at 15:03

          It’s good that David and Nicola are singing from the same hymn sheet, we’re better together, both in Britain and in Europe.

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 16:38

          It is true, there are deeply unpleasant characters to be found on either side of the fence. Many decent ones too. However, Fred highlighted the danger of sharing a platform with particularly loathsome individuals – the stupidity of Labour (“New” or otherwise) sharing a bed with the filthy Tories over the Scotland independence referendum, is what undoubtedly cost them the last general election.

• 

  BDS Now ! June 13, 2016 at 07:23

  Its OK if we allow in a million more turkish fishnchip sellers (and three million more dregs of East European/Ukrainian society), the main thing as Fallon said is to get Parliament to bomb assad, in aid of our cousins in Israel. Out government is more busy working towards Lord Astors agenda and narrative. We can always import half a million filipinos to run the NHS to cater for all the sick old greeks and like who have descended upon England for treatment, the main thing is to set aside £2b to bomb assad. The chosen have taken over this country and are running it towards their ends, the proof is staring at us in the face – murdoch/green have been feeding on our press freedoms/pension funds in broad daylight with complete impunity as they are fully complicit with the son-in-law and tribesman cameron.

  The national debt was £800b (even after £300b spent on rescuing the banks in 2008) when the reptilians took over, IT IS £1800 BILLION TODAY, only 6 years later – billions transferred to Eastern Europe to get the Poles to bring down putin who stands in the way of eretz shitsrael – we have even had the devil himself satanyahu invited to 10 Downing !!

• 

  Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 08:31

  MODS

  Are you really going to do nothing about “BDS Now!” and his hateful posts?

  Whether he is genuine or, as Spencer-Davis speculated, an agent provocateur?

  I realise you might not be able to block him but at least you could delete his posts?

  **********************

  PS – always surprised that no one else on here seems to object to him.

  • 

    Alan June 13, 2016 at 09:06

    Habba said “always surprised”

    That’s life, full of surprises.

  • 

    D-Majestic (Floreat Epona!) June 13, 2016 at 09:37

    Well I guess many contributors object to your own presence still being tolerated here. One of the wonders of modern life, indeed. You exhibit neither learning nor empathy. Nor any knowledge of cars.

  • 

    nevermind June 13, 2016 at 09:51

    shut up Habby, youb are an idiot for even trying to deny the truth. BDS now has it just right, as hard as you might try and wipe our eyes here.

    Have you not realised yet that you are merely being owned here, go see to your Schickse In Tel Aviv Moishe.

    • 

      Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 11:00

      “BDS now has it just right”

      I’m glad we now have it in writing that Nevermind agrees with the views of hardcore anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, English Knight / BDS Now.

      • 

        nevermind June 13, 2016 at 11:07

        Anon, you opinion does not conflate to others get that into your thick head, what you think of others is as skewed as a kebab served by Boris.

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 11:53

        I agree with Anon 1, BDS’ posting history is pure hate and bile.

      • 

        Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:01

        Absolutely, Anon.

        Calm persistence will always flush out the haters in the end.

        • 

          Herbie June 14, 2016 at 11:04

          Certainly flushed you out long ago.

          So much so that you’ve had to be banned a few times, suspended and heavily moderated.

  • 

    oblivious June 13, 2016 at 10:48

    Quit whining and ignore him like I try to ignore you. Constant appealing to moderators exposes you for the puerile specimen you are. Over sensitivity to criticism of Israel does not mean the critic is an anti-Semite no matter how many times you accuse them . Grow up!

  • 

    Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 11:03

    We now know that they don’t object to him because they agree with him.

    • 

      oblivious June 13, 2016 at 11:36

      Where did I say I agreed with him? It seems you are adept at distortion and down right lies but it’s people like you as well as Hababbkuk who, because of your constant accusations of anti-Semitism actually make it much easier for real anti-Semites. You and your blind approval are the real problem and despite your love affair with Israel, you do much more damage than good. No matter the overwhelming military supremacy Israel has, it’s slowly losing support because of its policies, not the irrational conclusion that everyone is becoming anti-Semitic.

    • 

      glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 11:56

      Don’t be so silly. One is not in agreement by default. What is it with Israel-first stooges and their constant attempts at smearing others with this weak guilt-by-association BS?

      • 

        Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:31

        Nevermind is in agreement. And considering just how long “English Knight has been around now, we have to look at the failure to condemn by other posters.

        I excuse your good self and Ba’al, amongst one or two others.

• 

  Alan June 13, 2016 at 09:11

  Propaganda & Engineering Consent for Empire

  The manipulation of public opinion through suggestion can be traced back to the father of modern propaganda, Edward Bernays, who discovered that preying on the subconscious mind was the best way to sell products people don’t need, and wars people don’t want.

  Abby Martin interviews Dr. Mark Crispin Miller, professor of Media Studies at New York University.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7HmFH-Wo1s

  • 

    michael norton June 13, 2016 at 10:34

    Are the children of immigrants more likely to become murderers than the actual immigrants?

    • 

      Alcyone: Who is updating Islam, carried into 21c kicking and screaming? June 13, 2016 at 11:16

      Excellent question Michael. From what I have observed, I would say so. Many of these immigrant families harden their ‘faith’ to a greater degree in their adopted lands than they would at home; perhaps they are insecure in ‘diluting’ their ‘identities’. The children oft will grow up poorly adjusted and in the profusion of confusion, which is their conditioning from their prevailing immediate environment.

      Besides, the original immigrants, generally of very modest means, came to create a better future and had to earn their keep. Their children grow up with a sense of entitlement.

      At any rate, the only Muslims I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs. Even though I am reverting to being a vegetarian, nothing to with religion. For context, I reject every organised religion. As K said, you cannot organise the Truth.

      Our march of life as a Type Zero Global Civilisation continues, regardless of extraordinary advances in Technology. That will remain for the foreseeable future.

      • 

        Ba'al Zevul June 13, 2016 at 11:43

        …the only Muslims I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs.

        Now try this for size:

        “…the only Jews I trust are ones who appreciate a good breakfast of bacon and eggs.”

        Not that you’d be so antisemitic as to do so. But hey, why not?

        • 

          Alcyone: Who is updating Islam, carried into 21c kicking and screaming? June 13, 2016 at 12:32

          Agreed Ba’al, you’re not exactly being very original here, as this was enshrined, indeed in anticipation, in my comment that I (consistently) reject ALL organised religions. Probably, they are dangerous for one’s mental health and, if not, undoubtedly a major, predominant factor to man killing man and constant fucking conflicts around the globe, decade in, decade out.

          But the conversation I am trying to address is the Islamisation of Europe and Saudi Arabia’s role which for some strange reason has been stealthily escaping the radar for some decades now.

        • 

          nevermind June 13, 2016 at 12:57

          Hmm, both like bacon and eggs for breakfast?, does that mean their religions are very closely related?…….
          or would that be closely related breakfast choices?

        • 

          Ba'al Zevul June 13, 2016 at 13:09

          Missing the point, Alcyone Free Headline Here. Which is that you can make all the stupid generalisations about Muslims that you like, but make one about Jews and you’re in deep shit with the thought police. Irrespective of your personal views.

          Nevermind, I lived in a Jewish area of London for a while, and oan au pair working for one Jewish family told me that most of the Jewish households in the street started the day with a hearty repast of bacon and eggs. That was before weird breakfasts became trendy, of course. And I doubt it affected their trustworthiness one way or the other.

      • 

        Macky June 13, 2016 at 13:16

        Sorry to intrude on the Muslim Hate Feast, but mental illness isn’t confined to Muslims;

        http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

        The Gunman’s ex-wife says her ex-husband was ‘bipolar’, ‘mentally ill’ and had a ‘violent temper” & “serious mental health problems”; perfectly ideal for being hired by G4S, I think they must actually screen for these “qualities” !

        • 

          fedup June 13, 2016 at 14:31

          Don’t mention these mere facts!!!!

          Also not mentioned; the fact that he was born and bred in the US of A has also no bearing on any of the events!!!!

          It is the darn Muslims that we all should be hating because the semites hate them and how dare the world to be so antisemi…. not to hate these hated Muslims? There should be a law against it!!! Just read the unconscious drivel of the keyboard offence units spamming this board, as in proof.

          It is sickening to see these specimens pouring rank hatred on Muslims and then taking the umbrage in case of any perceived slight against the “chosens”.

          Meanwhile back at the ranch all those heterosexuals getting bombed to oblivion in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Libya, ………….. not a fuck given! But a few gays getting it in the neck, is minute to minute coverage, and the pontifications of it is the end of the world and everyone hates gays and so forth …… Identity politics at it’s best, leave the substance alone and stick to the narrative, and leave the oil line plans untouched!!!!

    • 

      Alan June 13, 2016 at 11:26

      “Are the children of immigrants more likely to become murderers than the actual immigrants?”

      Here are some photos of murderers in action:

      http://www.telesurtv.net/english/multimedia/Iconic-Photos-of-US-Imperialisms-Perpetual-War-on-the-World-20160608-0025.html

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 12:16

        What a disgusting set of photographs no-one wants to see pictures like this.

        Are you someone else with comprehension difficulties? The question invited people to comment on the differences between 1st and say 3rd generation muslim immigrants. It had nothing to do with non migrating Americans. The US is an exceptional country – all of its leaders agree and all of its policies are are founded on this notion of exceptionalism. It wants nothing more than to bring freedom to the peoples of the world.

        Such a pure and noble aim – poisoned and besmirched by people like you, people determined to post obviously photo shopped images to try and tarnish the reputation of these pure and humble freedom loving people.

        • 

          Alan June 13, 2016 at 12:25

          I have a little something I keep on file 😉

          1) US General says- “It’s good fun to shoot people”
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQcVsq6akw

          2) Official US policy: I don’t know who I kill, I don’t even know how many I kill.
          I can kill anyone I want, anywhere on earth, at any time, for secret reasons, under
          secret process, decided by people in secret.
          at 6:00′ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NRJoCNHIs

          3) A US State Dept govenrment spokesperson, when asked about Snowden” *officially states* that a US Citizen may NOT speak to defend himself.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDFIVVmXE-g

          4) US Congressman Michael Grimm threats to kill a Reporter in front of the camera,
          for daring to ask about his campaign fundraising.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeJhXaC5WPg

          5) CIA News Network, in youtube video titled: @CNN cuts off soldier then Ron Paul brings him on stage to let him finish talking” does exactly what the title says.

          6) Has produced a manual with torturing techniques which it distributed to “friendly” dictatorships (google “CIA Interrogation manual” and tell me what you find.)

          7) http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10996623/ns/world_news-terrorism/t/us-outsourced-torture-investigator-says/#.VXLa8s9Viko

          8) http://williamblum.org/aer/read/96 , “We came, we saw, we destroyed, we forgot”

          An updated summary of the charming record of US foreign policy. Since the end of the Second World War, the United States of America has …

          Attempted to overthrow more than 50 governments, most of which were democratically-elected.
          Attempted to suppress a populist or nationalist movement in 20 countries.
          Grossly interfered in democratic elections in at least 30 countries.
          Dropped bombs on the people of more than 30 countries.
          Attempted to assassinate more than 50 foreign leaders.
          In total: Since 1945, the United States has carried out one or more of the above actions, on one or more occasions, in the following 69 countries (more than one-third of the countries of the world):

          Afghanistan
          Albania
          Algeria
          Angola
          Australia
          Bolivia
          Bosnia
          Brazil
          British Guiana (now Guyana)
          Bulgaria
          Cambodia
          Chad
          Chile
          China
          Colombia
          Congo (also as Zaire)
          Costa Rica
          Cuba
          Dominican Republic
          East Timor
          Ecuador
          Egypt
          El Salvador
          Fiji
          France
          Germany (plus East Germany)
          Ghana
          Greece
          Grenada
          Guatemala
          Honduras
          India
          Indonesia
          Iran
          Iraq
          Italy
          Jamaica
          Japan
          Kuwait
          Laos
          Lebanon
          Libya
          Mongolia
          Morocco
          Nepal
          Nicaragua
          North Korea
          Pakistan
          Palestine
          Panama
          Peru
          Philippines
          Portugal
          Russia
          Seychelles
          Slovakia
          Somalia
          South Africa
          Sudan
          Suriname
          Syria
          Thailand
          Uruguay
          Venezuela
          Vietnam (plus North Vietnam)
          Yemen (plus South Yemen)
          Yugoslavia

          http://mattiasalmloef.com/?p=1416

          http://friendlydictators.blogspot.co.uk/

          http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/at-last-cuba-is-free-to-become-more-like-the-glorious-us-of-a-9934482.html

          9) Ex CIA personnel themselves describe their involvement:
          a) In the downing of PASSENGER jet, Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983.
          b) In the downing of PASSENGER jet, July 3, 1988, when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”

          http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

          As I’ve had it on file for some time some of the links may be dead, but the content is easily verifiable with a little research.

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 12:47

          Sure, Alan – but don’t forget about countries like Cuba. They’re the _real_ problem, donchaknow, while the US selflessly spreads free-dum and dee-mock-rasy everywhere:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMBNimILWoE

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:27

          “..I keep on file” and “As I’ve had it on file for some time..” (whatever the “it” is…)

          That says it all really, doesn’t it?

          Pre-written and ready to be wheeled out whenever the Hater deems appropriate (or for whenever he pops his cork)….

• 

  Alan June 13, 2016 at 10:53

  Empire Files: Abby Martin Exposes What Hillary Clinton Really Represents

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV_PLCC6jeI

• 

  nevermind June 13, 2016 at 11:02

  Craig’s last point is most pronounced when one speaks of Edward Bernay, Alan.
  When he writes
  “I firmly believe that the allegations against me were knowingly false or grossly exaggerated,. and were concocted against me deliberately to silence me after l was the only senior civil servant to enter a written objection to the policy of collusion in torture. As a consequence my career was destroyed and my health permanently damaged.”

  then that is the best example on how the already Orwellian/Leviathan system works, truth is being drowned out by cooperation with Ruperts MSM, but much more with the BBC black mailed and high jacked by party political purposes and agenda’s.
  Why is the BBC funded by a Government franchise that needs renewing by the same old same same every seven years? So they, not the listeners, can control it.

  Why is the Electoral Commission being funded by an equally renewable franchise when they should have their funding guaranteed by law? because then party politicians have control over the electoral process.
  God forbid that any Independents get elected, that would mean that these two have their funding questioned by the establishment and party politicians who rely on their connivance.

  That Craig was the only civil servant who spoke out is an indictment, a fact that shows that Bernay’s techniques have dulled and koshed the most clever minds and people, that they have not got an iota of democratic, fair and principled behaviour to offer.
  But there must be some who are stirring, and they are of better use inside, speaking out and letting us know what’s happening, these people must exist, otherwise we would have to rely solely on the excellent work of anonymous ,Wikileaks and many others who are currently involved in cutting through their massive control and silencing operation on the internet, their data stealing and SIM.
  Quiet funny that E. Bernay hated the use of his methods in advertising, that he could not have foreseen that this would be the first application, after the use for propaganda purposes

  • 

    michael norton June 13, 2016 at 11:07

    Shares in G4S, a UK based security firm, fell sharply after it was confirmed that the gunman who killed at least 50 people in the attack on a gay club in Orlando was once employed as an armed security officer at the company.

    Omar Mateen, the man identified as the shooter in the attack, worked with private security group G4S Secure Solutions as an officer in Florida. The role requires 28 hours of classroom training by a licensed instructor.

    Shares dropped as much as 8.1 per cent when trading began on Monday.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/orlando-shooting-nightclub-g4s-omar-mateen-gunman-security-firm-gay-pulse-club-attack-a7079161.html

    That firm seems to mess up most things it is in to.

• 

  Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:28

  Another Canadian hostage has been beheaded in the Philippines by the Islamic group, Abu Sayyaf.

  It’s shaping up to be another gruesome Ramadam for the RoP.

  • 

    Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:33

    *Ramadan

  • 

    Dave Lawton June 13, 2016 at 22:26

    “Another Canadian hostage has been beheaded in the Philippines by the Islamic group, Abu Sayyaf. ”

    Blame America. http://internationaltimes.it/the-dalai-lama-isis-and-the-president-of-the-us/

• 

  Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:42

  Tusk: “Brexit could cause the destruction of Western political civilization in its entirety.”

  http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YZ0Q9

  • 

    glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 12:49

    Yet another good reason to vote LEAVE.

    • 

      Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:52

      I thought it would go down well here.

      • 

        Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 12:54

        I thought about responding to your request to put forward some arguments for Leave, and was going to list numerous ways in which the EU is fucking over Britain.

        But then I realised that would make most of the commenters here more likely to vote Remain. 🙂

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 13:09

          Most droll I’m sure, but are you actually serious? You continually imply that many posters here want positive harm to our country, whereas in reality the people to whom you refer more likely want our war criminals held to account, and our imperialist policies brought to a halt.

          OTOH, perhaps you should compile a list of how voting REMAIN would boost Israel 😉

        • 

          Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:31

          “Vote Remain or the Jews get it.”

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 13:46

          “Vote Remain or the Jews get it.”

          Now, now – you’re conflating Israel with Jews. Are you implying that Israel is a Jewish state? That’s the only way such a link could be legitimately made. And if it is, that’s unbelievably racist. If not, what are you talking about?

          I’m tired of you lot trying to have it both ways all the time.

    • 

      Alcyone: Democracy is coming to the United States of Europe. Not. June 13, 2016 at 12:54

      I am with you Glenn. Good to see you.

      • 

        nevermind June 13, 2016 at 13:08

        One for you all.
        “This vote is about preserving Europe’s competitiveness in times of change and struggle between world powers. It’s about nothing less than the future of the peace project started in 1946 by erstwhile enemy nations on a devastated continent, (“Let Europe arise!” as Churchill put it). It is a project that has unified western Europe for seven decades.

        The words are becoming increasingly heated. EU opponents are comparing Brussels to Hitler and producing dangerously false statistics, while the dominant tone among EU supporters is pathos. For once, the latter is justified, because fundamental principles are at stake.”

        http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/comment-on-brexit-it-s-smarter-to-stay-a-1096929.html

        • 

          Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:12

          “If it votes to leave because a disproportionately high number of older and less well-educated British want it so passionately…”

          Older and less well-educated. The fucking cheek.

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 14:04

          Yes, that is a damned cheek. Once again, it demonstrates my point about LEAVE voters being dismissed as stupid, ignorant racists. And that arrogance will probably cost us our membership (for good or ill).

      • 

        glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 13:10

        Same to you – it’s good to take a break from here from time to time!

  • 

    Loony June 13, 2016 at 14:01

    As far as I know Craig Murray has stated that he is in favor of the UK remaining in the EU, and that he considers the referendum to be a contest by proxy for the Conservative Party leadership. Beyond that he has no interest in discussing the subject.

    I have yet to hear any form of meaningful positive arguments for remaining in the EU. Perhaps that is because no matter how gifted a wordsmith one may be the task at hand is simply impossible. Whatever your personal political leanings there is a wealth of considered political thought that makes a compelling case for leaving the EU. This ranges from the views espoused by people like Michael Foot and Tony Benn right across the spectrum to figures such as Enoch Powell. Their political descendants continue to make their case.

    That the EU is both corrupt and fatally flawed is beyond doubt. Democratic votes are ignored whenever they threaten to place a brake on the aims and aspirations of the EU elites. Greece is being hurtled into the third world and is little more than a neglected colony of Germany. The economies of southern Europe are being left to atrophy in perpetuity. The EU is allowing itself to be blackmailed and humiliated by Turkey. It’s only solution to the refugee crisis is to hurl accusations of racism at Viktor Orban and indeed any citizen that may inquire as to the actual plan.

    It is a stagnating economic bloc suffocating any entrepreneurial spirit in rafts of petty regulations that have been largely designed by large corporate firms in order to benefit themselves by choking off the prospect of any meaningful competition. It is only the economic strength of Germany that serves to mask the truly dreadful position of most of the rest of the union. Germany is only as strong as it is because through the euro it benefits from currency manipulation by proxy.

    Popular discontent is obvious and explains the rise of anti EU parties all across Europe, ranging from right wing French Front National to the left wing Spanish Unidos Podemos. That the EU will collapse is beyond doubt, the only unknown is what form this collapse will take.

    British politicians constantly peddle fear and maintain that the UK is too small to stand alone in the wider world. The opposite is true. Alone among European countries that may act the UK is large enough and strong enough to deliver a knock out blow to the EU. The UK is the best hope that Europe has to unwind the EU on relatively peaceful terms. All thinking people in Europe should be urging the British to stand firm and vote leave.

    • 

      glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 14:49

      Yet more ill-informed nonsense from an uneducated racist 😉

      Seriously though – excellent points, Loony.

    • 

      Jim June 13, 2016 at 15:26

      It comes to something when you’re reduced to using the decades out of date views of the dead! And talking if Greek advocates and voices, you might be interested to know Yanis Varoufakis, the well known neo-con hawk and warmonger, has been doing the rounds for months strongly advocating for Remain.

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 15:29

        More detail on Varoufskis’ views in conversation with Paul Mason :

        https://youtu.be/md6_WfF9Ky0

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 15:50

        The views of Yanis Varoufakis will ultimately be conditioned by what he considers to be in the best interests of Greece He is entitled to his views and the British population is entitled to determine that his views, whatever they may, are irrelevant to their considerations.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 15:55

          Nooe, that’s a gross mid-characterisation of his views. The guy has a better grasp of the history of British politics, a better grasp of nearly everything, than most British pundits. It’s worth watching the Mason conversation, he’s a very bright fellow, a veritable polymath.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 15:56

          Nope, gross mis-characterisation.

          Erratum, typos.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 16:01

          And anyway your statement doesn’t make sense, if Varoufakis’ only interest was in Greece’s future wellbeing, and he’s strongly advocating for Britsin to remain in, where does that leave your argument that remaining would not be in Greece’s interest?

        • 

          Loony June 13, 2016 at 16:33

          Jim – Hungary is in central Europe, not eastern Europe.

          Orban is best described a Hungarian nationalist. But, however you describe him, he is popular in Hungary.

          Despite an absence of any evidence if you consider him to be a racist xenophobe then why would you want to be associated with him? and moreover associated with a majority of the Hungarian population who support him?

          Yanis Varoufakis is unquestionably intelligent and highly plausible. In the ultimate analysis he is an “educated idiot” He devised a highly credible plan to resolve the Greek debt crisis. A plan that was thrown into the bin by the EU even as he was explaining it. His intellect is such that he is simply unable to grasp the evil that is the EU. The EU says it wants a solution and Varoufakis believes them and provides one. He does not understand that they are telling lies. The last thing they want is a solution and every single thing the EU has done in relation to Greece is evidence of this.

          Overriding Greek economic problems, the Greeks have an atavistic fear of the Turks. As people like Erdogan consolidates power this fear grows. Naturally Greece believes that the EU provides some from of protection from Turkey.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 17:16

          Oh, Yanis Varoufakis the credulous dupe? That one? Give me a break, he gives detailed point by point elucidation in the Mason conversation as to how the ‘monster may be tamed’, and says that while his critics claim he is a Utopian dreamer, things can be changed. It’s a powerful and credible message of hope.
          Hungary, central/eastern? it’s a pernickety non-point to choose to argue over. To choose ‘in’ and have such dubious political and economic bedfellows does indeed give pause for thought. However, you were claiming Orban is no xenophobe at all, which is pretty untenable, and you smartly sidestepped that.

        • 

          Loony June 13, 2016 at 17:46

          Jim If your believing Orban is a xenophobe racist encourages you to dump the EU then I am happy to agree with your categorization.

          Don;t forget Marine le Pen in France is very right wing. The AfD (Alternative for Germany) is gathering support, there is still a minority fascist party in Spain, the Law and Justice party is in power in Poland (some say they are worse than Orban), an Austrian nationalist came within a few thousand votes of winning the Presidential elections.

          Varafoukis is only one face of Greece. Do not forget Golden Dawn – a bona fide fascist party.

          Agreeing with your definition of racism and xenophobia, surely you can see that these people are all over Europe and their influence is growing. You surely do not want to be associated with such people. Vote Leave!

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 18:05

          I’ll go with Yanis thanks. These xenophobes are not there for ever, this is an ongoing and existential battle. The consequences from Brexit precipitating a complete breakup of the EU are, in Varoufakis’ estimation and other influential voices such as Tusk, more dangerous than maintaining the union. I believe him.

        • 

          Loony June 13, 2016 at 18:24

          Jim – I take it you have actually read the thoughts of Varafoukis.

          You don’t seem to have pointed out that he himself conditioned his views with a caveat to the expected failure of his own ideas “There is virtue in heroic failure”

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 18:32

          The statement doesn’t indicate ‘expected’. And there is such a notion, who would deny it? The consequences of not trying are more serious than not trying at all.

    • 

      Jim June 13, 2016 at 16:06

      And by the way, Orban is a racist xenophobe, did you read the Oborne opinion piece someone posted earlier? Scary stuff from these people, and there are a lot of them in Eastern Europe.

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 16:10

        The link to Peter Oborne’s piece :

        http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/which-way-should-british-muslims-vote-eu-referendum-152685040

  • 

    Alan June 13, 2016 at 22:57

    The end of Western civilisation? Yeah! And better still, Cameron goes down in history as the one who caused it.

• 

  Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:01

  Is anyone false-flagging yet? Surely there were crisis actors involved, or holograms, or shadows in the wrong places? Perhaps RobG can comment on the CCTV footage.

  I’m surprised Nevermind hasn’t blamed the gays for fooling around in a nightclub whilst a terrorist is trying to go about his business.

  • 

    Loony June 13, 2016 at 13:12

    No need to false flag this. They are working hard on blaming the NRA and Christian fundamentalists.

    • 

      Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:27

      The BBC in particular has been very keen to stress the homophobic nature of the attack. The discussion then becomes about homophobic attitudes and LGBT rights in the US, ather than Islamic extremism and Islam’s violent attitudes towards homosexuals.

      The pretence that there is nothing wrong with Islam must be kept up at all costs.

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 13:44

        Anon, you posted a very misleading comment yesterday suggesting Owen Jones ‘flounced’ out of the Sky studios because they wouldn’t accept his characterisation of the crime as purely homophobic hate crime. He was annoyed rather because they seemed not to accept his contention that it was both Islamist terrorism and homophobic hate crime. In other words they were focused on the Islamist nature of the crime and not seeing it in its full context.

        So Sky’s skewed focus seems ok to you, but now the BBC are somehow biased for looking at the homophobia element? Hmmm.

        • 

          Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:52

          No, Jones was deliberately avoiding the full context. The other guest and the presenter were talking about it as both an Islamist and homophobic attack. The BBC, like Jones, is keen to stress that it was just a homophobic attack.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 13:56

          I love it when it’s troll versus troll time ! 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 14:02

          Nope, that’s just not true. Go back and check.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 14:04

          Guardian link :

          http://gu.com/p/4yvjj?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 15:03

        Did you know that siderodromophobia is a fear of trains and is only diagnosed rarely in comparison to other phobias. This is strange because if the attacks in Florida were homophobic then the attacks in Madrid and London must surely be siderodromophobic.

        Perhaps devotees of Islam are much more likely than other segments of the population to suffer from siderodromophobia. There appears to be a paucity of literature on this subject – maybe the EU could consider funding some research.

  • 

    nevermind June 13, 2016 at 13:18

    Speculating again Anon? you got all the facts, have you? or is this just your opinion so far.

    Here is the next president of the EU speaking the language of Trump, Gove and Farrage. British Muslims do have little choice.
    On one side they will face six month of bigotry before the Maltese falcons take over the reign, whilst on the other they will loose their human rights altogether for some bill of rights they have no say in, forever.

    by Peter Oborne.
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/which-way-should-british-muslims-vote-eu-referendum-152685040

    • 

      michael norton June 13, 2016 at 13:28

      If we vote to leave the hated .U.

      Cameron is going to fuck everything up for the U.K.

    • 

      Jim June 13, 2016 at 13:32

      That is a very sobering piece by Oborne, cheers for the link.

      • 

        Macky June 13, 2016 at 13:41

        Ah ! Dim Jimbo ! No relax, I’m not going to remind you that you have yet to produce all those “anti-Semitic” & “horrendous homophobic” comments of mine, because as we both know they don’t exist, and you are just a shameless lying smearing troll.

        However still interested to hear your views on if you’re supporting BDS or not, & as to whetever Israel can be called an Apartheid State ?

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 13:47

          May 31st 18.13 ‘I, Daniel Blake’ thread. Keep reading.
          Adieu, thicko.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 13:54

          @Dim Jim, no can’t find any antisemitism or homophobia there; Can you quote exactly what you are referring to, but this time try not to deliberately change any words as you did before !

          Why so shy on stating your views on BDS or Apartheid Israel ? 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 14:01

          Stop continually lying, you obnoxious little toe rag.

      • 

        Macky June 13, 2016 at 14:11

        All talk and no trousers as we all know Dim Jim, thanks anyhow for proving yet again that you are a shameless lying smearing troll.

        I have to tell you though, your reluctance to answer the Israel questions is not doing you any favours ! 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 14:25

          I’ve posted numerous times thicko, a couple of days ago multiple posts on the subject of a damning BBC Storyville on the hidden war-crimes of the 6 day war. Why do you persist with this inane shit when everybody can see you lying continually. It just makes you look a complete arsehole.

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:32

          Still nothing of substance from “Macks”.

          If he asks nicely and sends me his real email I’d be happy to send him a few pointers for future comments.

          No charge! 🙂

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 14:48

          The only “lack of substance” Habba-Clown is Dim Jim’s smearing attempts, oh, also his very amusing evading of two very simple questions on Israel, to which you should feel honoured as I think it’s due to him not wanting to hurt your feelings about Israel ! 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 14:57

          Christ, it’s like a horrific alternate version of the Big Lebowski : “my message to you sir is,’The morons won!'”.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 15:02

          @Dim Jim, what do you think Dumbo, that you could get away with smearing people, you disgusting low-life ?

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 16:29

          Ah, such cutting debate.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 16:32

          @glenn_uk, well I did try to engage your troll mate about Israel, but he keeps running away ! 😀

        • 

          glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 19:17

          It is possible to thoroughly disagree with someone while keeping it civilised, you know.

          You should try it sometime. It might allow you to get your point across, while not embarrassing your natural allies. You never know, you might actually convince your opponent of something – make them learn about your point of view.

          That’s never going to happen while they are defending or counter-attacking a personal offensive. Habbabkuk would benefit from this advice too, and I’m not entirely convinced Anon1 is beyond hope – even he can manage a passing impression of being house-trained on occasion.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 19:32

          glenn_uk; “It is possible to thoroughly disagree with someone while keeping it civilised, you know.”

          I know you have been having spells away from here, so you may have missed some background here, but you should know by now that I give people a fair chance to start with, but when they start trolling, and try the old smearing game, to the extent of deliberately changing my words in “quotes”, all of which is very uncivilised, that’s when I start calling out trolls & liars for what they are;

          If you prefer to let such tactics slip by in the interest of remaining pals with people, that’s your call, just don’t expect me to do the same.

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 19:56

          “Macks” to Glenn:

          “…you should know by now that I give people a fair chance to start with..”
          _____________________

          Supreme magnanimity! Oh, divine tolerance! Amazing Grace!

          We bow down before the master and pray we may yet receive His Gracious Approval.

          And then we wake up and remember he’s just The Flouncer.

          Get real, “Macks”

    • 

      Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 13:47

      Don’t you think Islam has earned its reputation in Europe?

      And no, not speculating. You blamed the British tourists for their own deaths for arsing around on the beach in Tunisia.

      Now get back to sticking up for your friend ‘BDS Now’ (who “has it just right”).

      • 

        Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:10

        Our German-born contributor from Norfolk was born after the war and would therefore not have been exposed to Nazi indoctrination before coming to the UK.

        That makes his true feelings (as expressed in his support for “BDS Now!”) all the more remarkable…..and worrying.

        • 

          Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 14:46

          He was around when “BDS Now” was calling for Jews to be put aboard cattle trucks.

          It appears we have something deeply troubling in our midst in the Norfolk countryside.

        • 

          nevermind June 13, 2016 at 14:59

          Its you and Habby, Anon, who are the real boot licking fascists here, whatever lies you may like to spread about me.
          I have fought fascists all my life and I can see them a mile off.
          Those who want to ban BDS for shekels stick out especially.

          And whatever you call fucking ckeek, Anon, when information given to voters are lies and accusations that are really disturbing.
          Calling Brussels the new Nazi HQ does not make for PM material.

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 16:35

          “I have fought fascists all my life and I can see them a mile off.”
          ____________________

          Pardon??

          What fascists have you fought?

          For God’s sake THINK before you write, man!

• 

  Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit June 13, 2016 at 13:46

  Wonder if loony Donald is going to call on the military to bust into the White House, and make a citizen’s arrest of the POTUS.

  Heaven forbid that he calls on it to level the NRA headquarters for allowing the mentally disturbed to purchase any weapons they fancy..

  • 

    Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 14:02

    Gun control is a side issue and a convenient distraction for the progressive left who want to avoid any discussion of Islam. I would agree that the ability for almost anyone to posses an assault rifle is questionable, but a truck load of gas cylinders would have done the job as effectively. And not forgetting that the Paris attacks were carried out in a country with far stricter gun laws than the US. If you want to get hold of weapons to cause mass deaths and destruction you can do so in any country and there are also reports that the shooter had bomb-making equipment.

    • 

      Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit June 13, 2016 at 14:19

      Pathetic Anon1 as gun violence in America is an epidemic with nearly 100 people being killed by them every day in the USA.

      Dangerous jihadists should be on every counter terrorist list, and should be under surveillance to prevent them from doing any violence.

      A truck load of anything is harder to use for anything than just going down and buying an assault weapons to kill a whole lot of people if one fancies.

      And enforcing laws on the books about limiting gun violence is a joke here and in many other places.

      Get real instead of just engaging in diversions.

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 15:11

        Trowbridge – Is a diversion a lie if it don’t come true or is it something worse?

        It is true that in the US almost 100 people a day die gunshot wounds. It is also true that about 2/3rds of those deaths are by way of suicide. Presumably people intent on suicide are not reliant on access to firearms.

        Is there any reason why you did not mention this fact?

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 15:20

          @Loony, a Boss fan ? (posted a reply on the Sub thread)

        • 

          Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit June 13, 2016 at 15:43

          I have no objection to suicide by any means if it is a reasonable solution to the problems of life no matter how it is conducted.

          I am probably going to commit suicide if the world and my health deteriorates much more.

          In short, I don’t consider gun suicides a problem that can be solved but murders, especially massacres, can be greatly reduced if our country is not an open gun market.

          And a diversion is changing the subject so that the stated problem or concern can be avoided or minmised.

      • 

        Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 18:42

        “gun violence in America is an epidemic with nearly 100 people being killed by them every day in the USA.”

        _______________________

        Well if these annually increasing facts are anything to go by, then gun control isn’t the main threat to the average American.

        http://obamacarefacts.com/facts-on-deaths-due-to-lack-of-health-insurance-in-us/

        The US government might not be able to do much about gun ownership in America, but they could do plenty about the health insurance companies and big pharma if they wanted to, but they don’t want to.

  • 

    Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 14:31

    “Heaven forbid that he calls on it to level the NRA headquarters”

    _________________

    You’ll have Charlton Heston spinning in his grave in. ?

• 

  Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 14:26

  The father of one of the four young Israeli young men killed on Wednesday, in Tel Aviv by Palestinian men (allegedly ) said it’s the fault of the Israeli government, by making things worse instead of better.

  “The father of Ido Ben Ari, one of the four victims of the shooting attack allegedly carried out by two Palestinian cousins at a Tel Aviv cafe, accused the Israeli government of making the situation worse.

  “Last night, after the attack, the prime minister and two of his ministers arrived and yet another security cabinet issued decrees – not to return corpses, to put up barriers, to destroy houses, and to make lives harder,” the father said at his son’s funeral.”

  “These solutions create suffering, hatred, despair and lead to more people joining the circle of terror,” he added. “What’s needed is a solution rather than saying all the time that there’s nobody to make peace with.”

  Wise words, alas I fear they’ll go unheeded.

  https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israeli-occupation-colonization-root-violence?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=a234366c34-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-a234366c34-299185473

  • 

    Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:34

    Just like it was the fault of the tourists in Tunisia for being in Tunisia or the fault of the people in Paris being in the Bataclan?

    • 

      Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 14:45

      Habb.

      Well I think when the father of one of the murdered men, speaks out and says – look the system is all wrong or words to that effect. Those in positions of power and responsibility show sit up and take notice.

      There may be a growing unrest among Israeli residents, that the direction Israel is heading in (internally) isn’t the right one.

      It’s a can of worms, that can only be opened from the inside out, in my opinion, and I dare say, it’s the opinion of the father, who’s just lost his son.

      • 

        Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 16:38

        RoS

        “Habb.

        Well I think when the father…..”

        ______________________

        Whoa, RoS, stop right there! You don’t think, you just clown around.

    • 

      nevermind June 13, 2016 at 15:09

      Again you proof your absence of mind, Habby. Tunesia was given a FO warning, have you forgotten?
      Tunesia under BenAli was a torturing state with no freedom of speech. He was disposed by its people with the help of some anonymous hackers who took it upon themselves to show its poor people how Ben Ali lived in pure luxury, importing his fruit juice from Monaco by air and feeding four chickens per day to his sons tiger pet.

      That was a week before poor Mohamed Bouazizi took his own life and became the spark that outed the BenAli regime.
      The new Government under which this massacre was carried out, was young inexperienced and in the cross hair of a western backed IS.
      Follow the money stupid.

    • 

      Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 16:40

      That was a silly comment of mine, wasn’t it, RoS?

      Very similar to most of yours, in fact.

      Hope it helps you to learn.

• 

  Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:29

  I note that the recent flurry of activity by “BDS Now!” coincides with an unusual period of silence from our Transatlantic Friend.

  • 

    Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 14:38

    Good afternoon Habb.

    How is our wannabe mod? Still pining, to moderate Craig’s super blog? Or have you accepted that your cherished desire, is nothing more than a pipe dream. ?

• 

  John Goss June 13, 2016 at 14:31

  After the England Russia football match there were a few comments on hooliganism, and which fans were to blame, exactly what MSM want you to be discussing, rather than the football, because that is what fosters hatred. Hatred keeps the battles going. I never commented at the time because, although I was sure in my mind that the ‘foul’ that led to England’s goal was not a foul I could find no footage and ITV never repeated it (surprise, surprise) so had to look elsewhere. Because politics has become an increasingly integral part of sport I decided to blog about it.

  http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/soccer-england-did-not-deserve-victory.html

  • 

    Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 14:39

    “http://johngossip.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/soccer-england-did-not-deserve-victory.html”
    ________________________

    Of course it didn’t, Mr Goss, because it was England.

    ***********************

    I’ve heard that cuckoos leave their eggs in others’ nests but this is the first time I’ve seen the cuckoo leaving his address in the new nest 🙂

    • 

      John Goss June 13, 2016 at 14:44

      Habbabkuk (floreat Blytona)

      Thanks for the further plug. Would you care to discuss the foul? 😀

      • 

        Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 14:50

        Bet you creamed yourself when that Russian equalizer went in, you old trot.

        • 

          John Goss June 13, 2016 at 14:57

          Still trolling for the racist Little Englanders? Hmm!

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 14:59

          Like you must do whenever there’s a high profile crime involving Muslims, being the vile bigot that you are.

        • 

          Ba'al Zevul June 13, 2016 at 15:44

          More vile bigots…

          http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/12/westboro-sings-shooters-keep-comin-around-bodies-still-club

          Radicalised Christians, I think.

      • 

        Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 16:42

        Judging by the number of comments it attract, Mr Goss, I’d say your blog needs all the plugs it can get.

        • 

          John Goss June 13, 2016 at 17:58

          My blog might be short on comments. Is that because people look at the footage and agree that the so-called ‘foul’ from which England scored was not a foul? Nobody’s going to comment if they agree and I take that as a compliment.:)

  • 

    Loony June 13, 2016 at 15:24

    Yeah the British do things their way,

    Andy Burnham said England had been let down by a minority of their fans and that whilst they may have been provoked they were not blameless and that their behavior was embarrassing.

    And the Russians do things their way

    Igor Lebedev a member of the Russian Duma did not think the behavior of Russian supporters to be out of the ordinary and praised the hooligans for defending the honor of Russia and for not allowing the British to in any way defile the homeland.

    • 

      fred June 13, 2016 at 15:37

      I think there may be more to the Russian “hooligans” than meets the eye. British fans said they weren’t like ordinary fans, they all looked like body builders and French authorities say it was a well planned and well orchestrated attack. All the Russians escaped arrest.

      A military or paramilitary unit maybe?

      • 

        Ba'al Zevul June 13, 2016 at 15:49

        Naah. They do it at home too.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KsyS3VS45I

        Bad bastards.

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 17:23

          “Macks”

          Any comments on Ba’al’s link?

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 17:38

          @Habba_Clown, sneaky being topless, doesn’t allow you opponent any chance to grab & hold you.

          Here’s something for you to comment on;

          Whilst the media attention is focused on Orlando and Pretoria, the daily oppression continues.

          IOP headlines for 10 June 2016:

          Israeli Army positions open fire on Gaza farms

          Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in 9 towns and villages

          4 attacks (2 Israeli ceasefire violations)

          14 raids including home invasions

          3 injured – 2 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage

          20 taken prisoner –

          70 restrictions of movement

          Palestine Human Rights Campaign
          http://palestine.org.nz/phrc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3413&Itemid=44

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 15:49

        British police were in Marseilles to keep tabs on Brit hooligans, filming etc for evidence for future banning orders, and their boss said the Russian ‘fans’ were highly organised, tooled up and at a level of violence he’d not seen before. They are handing over their filmed evidence to French police to try and locate the Russian thugs for prosecution. I hope they succeed.

      • 

        John Goss June 13, 2016 at 15:59

        “All the Russians escaped arrest.” What I cannot fathom here is if they were wearing balaclavas how can we tell what nationality they were.

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 17:23

          Perhaps by the language they were shouting in?

      • 

        Loony June 13, 2016 at 16:07

        Fred – I do not know who the Russians were.

        I do know that I was speaking with a Polish emigre earlier. That person told me that unlike the Polish the English do not understand the Russian mentality. That there are many Polish people in France with a principle aim of engaging with Russians and I that I should be advised that no matter the circumstances Polish people will never back down from Russians.

        This kind of sentiment does not bode well for your expressed hope that the world moves away from nationalism.

      • 

        Alan June 13, 2016 at 23:09

        A military or paramilitary unit maybe?

        There was a photo in one of the papers showing a number of them with a circular tattoo on their left shoulder, so probably.

    • 

      Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 15:43

      “Igor Lebedev a member of the Russian Duma did not think the behavior of Russian supporters to be out of the ordinary and praised the hooligans for defending the honor of Russia and for not allowing the British to in any way defile the homeland.”

      Stop it. You’re getting Macky all horny.

      • 

        Macky June 13, 2016 at 16:05

        No, I get my kicks from beating up on vile troll bigots like you.

        • 

          Resident Dissident June 13, 2016 at 21:16

          As I have said before you need to get a life for your own sanity.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 21:37

          @Resident Dumbo, what would you know about either life or sanity ! 😀

  • 

    fwl June 13, 2016 at 18:18

    Whilst it’s halfway acceptable to support Russia over England if your Scottish or Irish (or quarter way to acceptable if your Welsh) it’s kind of weird to support Russia if your English and don’t have Russian ancestry; it evens raises a question mark over your purely political postings.

    Footie commentators generally acknowledge where their team has had the benefit of a dodgy decision even in England. They might make light of it but they acknowledge it.

    • 

      John Goss June 13, 2016 at 23:46

      Then why didn’t they? Why didn’t they replay it? It was never a foul in a million years. “Dele Alli ran into Georgy Shchennikov”. It is clear to all except people like Resident Dissident below. He should watch it again, bearing in mind it was never replayed in our media (how unusual is that?), and was not available on a search. And when he watches it he should take off his ‘blame Putin’ and ‘blame Russia’ hat. D)

      • 

        Resident Dissident June 14, 2016 at 07:11

        Blame Putin and Blame Russia are two different hats. Where is the coverage in the Russian media or Russian commentators claimimg that there was no foul???? On 19 out of 20 occasions referees would have given that body check as a foul – and on the other occasion they would have been wrong. – I did look at it again on your link.

        Please take off your I hate my country mask.

        • 

          Macky June 14, 2016 at 09:15

          RD; “Blame Putin and Blame Russia are two different hats”

          Did you write that with a straight face ! Whenever the topic of Russia come up, no matter the issue, it is you, Resident Dumbo ,who’s always try to personalise with your “Putinista” smears! 😀

  • 

    Resident Dissident June 13, 2016 at 21:14

    We can clearly add football to the list of subjects about which you know very little – I’ve watched the foul again and it confirms what I thought at the time and I don’t think you will find many clearer examples of a player being impeded. Not even my missus argued about the foul and the booking- and when it comes to football she is very partisan and obviously watches the game more often than yourself – and from what I can see there were any complaints in the Russian Press either.

    As for the idiots using sport as an excuse for violence whether they be English, Russian or whatever they are just idiots.

    • 

      John Goss June 14, 2016 at 00:12

      “from what I can see there were any complaints in the Russian Press either.”

      That would surprise me but perhaps they never got to see a replay.

      Shchennikov showed great restraint. He never moved when Alli ran into him instead of round him. He never even protested. Sometimes you have to bite your lip when a bad decision goes against you. This was a bad decision. I guess all teams have been advised to accept the referee’s decision since there is nothing you can do about it. The same happened in the Ukraine Germany match, if you watched that, to the detriment of Ukraine, for whom I felt sorry.

      As to knowing about football I was watching it when you were in nappies at a time when men were men and their shorts went down to their knees. However in the interests of fairness I urge others to watch the replay at 3 minutes 30 seconds in this vid and see if they agree that “it was a clear example of a player being impeded.” Outside of your gang of six I doubt you’ll get many takers if they’re honest.

      http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2764456

      • 

        Resident Dissident June 14, 2016 at 22:22

        Watched it again Schennikov clearly coming forward when he fouled Alli – please go and have your eyes checked. Football has moved on since your days .

• 

  Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit June 13, 2016 at 15:52

  Let’s face, when it comes to football hooliganism, the English are the worst.

  • 

    glenn_uk June 13, 2016 at 16:33

    I dunno about that. They’re up against some stiff competition from the Dutch, for example.

  • 

    Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 16:37

    Not any more. I recall a few years ago when Chelsea went to Galatasaray, the Turks were waiting for them with chains and broken bottles.

    Only to find that the Chelsea fans were there just to enjoy the match with their families.

    There is a perception in many European countries that England fans are still as they were in the late 80s/early 90s.

  • 

    fwl June 13, 2016 at 18:25

    No your out of date.

    • 

      fwl June 13, 2016 at 18:29

      My comment was addressed to Trowbridge.

    • 

      Alcyone: The Dalai Lama, ISIS, and the President of the US June 14, 2016 at 13:53

      http://internationaltimes.it/the-dalai-lama-isis-and-the-president-of-the-us

      This is well worth a read.

      I can’t recall how I chanced upon it. If it was through a commenter here, thank you very much.

      PS hope it helps change the tone here with the blunt 6-blade knife, Macky varying between bitching and braying. And with that gaping mouth of hers, one feels she’s really dying to get on her knees and do some BJ’s.

• 

  bevin June 13, 2016 at 16:32

  The haste with which the trolls seek to pin the killings in Orlando on Islam is a disturbing sign of the extent of the headway made by islamaphobic propaganda in our culture.
  It is clear enough that Islam had no more to do with this massacre than Buddhism.
  In terms of immediate responsibility the killer was a young man, the son of a well known Afghan emigre politician who has lived in America for decades (the killer himself was US born and bred), working for one of the “Security” firms G4S which specialises is doing dirty work for governments, including both the British and the Israelis. He had a long history not of religious observance but of domestic violence and mental illness.
  And the ‘religion’ to which, allegedly, and shortly before dying, he stated his allegiance, over the ‘phone, is that variety of wahhabism concocted by the Saudi kleptocracy and the CIA to serve as a rallying point for the collection of mercenaries, collected from the muslim world and beyond, it welds into militias to take down geo-political rivals.
  These riff-raff need a new and simplified religion because Islam simply does not condone massacres of this sort or homophobia (it is curious how many people forget that Islam in the west has long had the reputation of being the ‘not homophobic’ religion).
  The reality is that, sad as the event is and horrible as must be the suffering of the survivors it is all too typical of the world imperialism has built for us. What seems quite genuinely to shock people is that today’s “dozens killed; many wounded” story comes to us not from Iraq or Syria, Libya (‘we came, we saw and we killed thousands.Ha Ha Ha’) or even Odessa, but from the world of Walt Disney.
  We really ought to understand that once we get into the business of killing crowds of people to de-stabilise governments or as ‘colateral’ damage in assassination attempts. Or to get shi’ites to fight sunnis or to terrorise Catholics watching Football on TV…once we start down that road it is going to lead, inevitably to massacres in the metropolis.
  Does anyone remember 9/11?
  And it really matters very little whether one believes it to have been a false flag operation or a genuine episode of blowback, carried out by people angered by imperialist attacks on their countries. It doesn’t matter at all for the victims, who in any case were the victims of vicious, callous imperialist policies.

  There is something really horrible about the haste with which, before the blood has begun to dry, the propagandists rush to set up their stalls at the crime scene. The smoke still hanging over the place, the corpses still being carried away and the air is full of the sound of islamophobes blaming religion, identity brokers claiming yet another battle in the war between ‘gays’ and those who refuse to congratulate them on their sexual tastes, racists eager to point out that the shooter was brown skinned, feminists reminding us that violence at home-rather than in the world at large- is the thin end of the wedge and the whole carnival of political clowns who dance on graves because dancing on graves can be profitable. And a lot less wearing than digging ditches.
  How many of our intellectual and political class earn livings from the business of scapegoating muslims? How many millions are spent on think tanks, publishers, academies in which cheap propaganda, much of it inspired by the fascist strain of zionism, is heaped up to be thrown at muslims?
  How many of the trolls here gave up thinking years ago because trotting out watered down racism (slavophobia, sinophobia included) and banging out variations on the theme that Islam needs a Reformation (one wonders whether such fools have caught on to the fruits of the Christian Reformation in its more popular and bigoted forms: you want a Reformation? Check out Texas on a Sunday morning) is so much easier than missing a few hours worth of chances to insult and, (who knows?), perhaps even hurt or anger someone living thousands of kilometers away, someone who you will never meet, and who you have no interest in understanding, missing such semi-orgasmic moments of fleeting excitement in order to study the matters under discussion. To read a book perhaps, to look at a map; to consider the case of the victim, rather than the bully’s threadbare justifications, to think before shooting off the opinions culled from yesterday’s Guardian or the BBC.
  The trolls are our Long Parliament, or Scottish Synod who have sat too long and settled into the work of taking the easiest route, following the path most trodden, refusing to think for themselves, less than real citizens of the blog because they do not bring their own judgments to the discussion but merely the cast off ideas of those they revere, the pundits working for imperialism, the hired guns of zionism and the whores of academia.
  May they rot in Connaught, where internet connections are few and far between.

  • 

    Jim June 13, 2016 at 16:52

    So Owen Jones and Peter Tatchell are Islamophobic bigots? And you’ll be telling me the Amazon flows into the Red Sea next.

    • 

      Macky June 13, 2016 at 17:12

      Face it Dim-Jim, he’s a warmongering bigot;

      http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/peter-tatchell-not-only-encourages-islamophobia-he-defends-the-right-of-homophobes-to-incite-hatred-against-the-lgbt-community/

      http://www.tmponline.org/2013/04/03/on-hate-peter-tatchell/

      LOL! There’s even a Peter Tatchell Watch TwitterSite 😀

      https://twitter.com/tatchellwatch

      • 

        Jim June 13, 2016 at 17:22

        If only you could see yourself as others see you. Tragic.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 17:44

          A blinkered person like you Dim Jim should avoid phrases like ” If only you could see yourself as others see you” ! 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 17:54

          You are a homophobic lying little cretin Macky :

          http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/19/peter-tatchell-plans-to-reach-out-to-muslims-on-lgbt-rights/

          All anyone has to do is look at the ‘I, Daniel Blake’ thread, May 31st at 18.13 and continue reading from the first homophobic insinuation, leading inexorably to your attempted paedophilia smear. It’s not only the smears themselves, it’s your outright glee doing it. You truly are repulsive.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 17:58

          And what’s worse is that your apparent political bedfellows like John Spencer-Davis utter not one word against you. Not a single utterance in defence of Tatchell’s call for the voices of activists like Osama Nassar and his friends to be heard. Despicable silence.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 18:06

          Hey Dumbo Jim, how can quoting somebody’s own words, lifted from a mainstream Quote Site, be called “smearing” ? 😀

          It’s not like a certain dishonest troll I know who maliciously changed my words in a quote to infer homophobia; that’s smearing Sunny Jim ! 😀

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 18:10

          You gave the quote about age of consent issues out of context, actually with no context whatsoever, in order to gleefully try and smear Peter Tatchell as a paedophile. You can deny all you like my laddie, it’s all down for the world to see.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 18:14

          June 1st at 1.13 in the ‘I, Daniel Blake’ thread. Zero context. Attempted smear.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 18:45

          @Dim Jim, It was lifted from a Quote Site, and your “out of context about age of consent issues” tries to hide the fact there is no context, instead this is actually from a little letter he sent to the Guardian, trying to defend a book advocating pedophilia, read for yourself how he thinks this book is “courageous”, and that the book documents examples where sex between old & young is “considered normal, beneficial & enjoyable”, and then goes on to give personal testimony from his friends that pedophilia “gave them great joy” !

          If you think that is not advocating pedophilia, then you are in denial;

          http://bernardgaynor.com.au/peter-tatchell-why-the-paedophiles-love-him/

          Here’s what somebody who’s often quoted here, thought of Tatchell letter;

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1311193/PETER-HITCHENS-Question-Who-said-Not-sex-involving-children-unwanted-abusive-Answer-The-Popes-biggest-British-critic.html

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 19:09

          So the attempted smearing continues! You are a remarkable specimen. Here is (again) the context you fail to provide in your campaign of attempted vilification:

          http://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/age_of_consent/Under-age-sex-Statement-of-clarification-by-Peter-Tatchell.htm

          And letters to the Daily Mail are not a ‘good look’ for a supposed friend of the far left. I wonder what John Spencer-Davis would think of your unpleasant tendencies?

      • 

        nevermind June 13, 2016 at 19:07

        Macky, you are quoting some very weird sites for your not so sturdy accusation, quiet poor for your standard.
        peter Thatchell is well aware who runs the Muslim community via the pulpits, and to say that gay Muslims are welcome in mosques with open arms would be a lie.
        That said, some of the two facedness amongst Christians when confronted with reality of the LGBT movement can be equally rabid.
        Thatchell has devoted his life to sexual politics, thats his choice, to say he is a warmonger is pathetic.

        • 

          Jim June 13, 2016 at 19:10

          Thanks Nevermind, at last someone’s calling him out.

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 19:20

          @Nevermind, I used the Aussie Site because it’s was the only one I found with a scan of Tatchell’s letter; that you are not aware that Tatchell, from the attack on Iraq onwards, has supported all other military interventions in Muslim countries, may explain why you don’t consider him one of the Fake Left Cruise Missile Humanitarians, however many others have seen through him; I recommend you look into this, (I think I provided links in the I, Daniel Blake’).

        • 

          Macky June 13, 2016 at 21:35

          @Nevermind, Here’s a comment that neatly outlines the case against Tatchell as being “anti-war;;

          “Tatchell has a made a habit in recent years of saying ‘I am anti-war – but here is my pro-war demand, and if the left don’t go along with it, shame on them!’.

          Here he is basically saying ‘I am anti-war, but the occupation of Afghanistan must continue for the good of Afghans’.

          Here he is saying ‘I am anti-war, but we must bomb Syria for the good of Syrians’ (given that a ‘no-fly zone’ simply can’t be enforced without regular and fairly heavy bombing of ‘enemy’ air defences).

          Here he is saying ‘I am anti-war, but Libya must be bombed for the good of Libyans’.

          Even as far back as 2003, he was arguing for a kind of ‘intervention lite’ approach to Iraq, writing that while he was opposed to the invasion of Iraq, ‘The international community should train and arm the Iraqi opposition forces, especially the Kurds and Shias who already have viable armies’, providing ‘tanks, helicopter gun-ships, fighter planes, heavy artillery and anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles’.

          What could possibly have gone wrong?

          Incidentally, he wants Nigeria to be one of the countries which sets up ‘no-fly zones’ and ‘safe havens’ in Syria. Even though the Nigerian government and armed forces have spent the last few years bombing civilians, carrying out massacres, systematically torturing and collectively punishing whole villages themselves (this is all well documented by human rights groups). It’s a strange kind of ‘humanitarianism’ that puts forward these vicious abusers as the saviors of Syrians.

          There’s a bit of a pattern here, isn’t there? Trumpet your anti-war credentials, then argue for pro-war policies – over and over again.

          I also thought it was very rich of him to argue that Stop the War apparently not letting pro-U.S. led intervention Syrians speak at their rallies is ‘censorship’.

          Because when Stop the War invited Agnes Mariam – who is allegedly pro-Assad, but against U.S. led bombing – to speak at their November 2013 rally, he signed a letter demanding that they no-platform her (that Agnes Mariam is a Christian, and works within Syria’s Christian communities, might give some indication as to why she would be sympathetic towards Assad – i.e. the alternative is seen as potentially worse by some minority groups within Syria – beyond her simply being evil).

          So on the face of it, Tatchell appears to want ‘free speech’ for U.S. led intervention advocates who hold views inimical to the Stop the War cause, but no-platforming for anti-U.S. lead intervention advocates who hold views inimical to the Stop the War cause.

          It looks like blatant double standards and hypocrisy to me, designed to push Tatchell’s pro-war agenda, but disguised as a principled defense of the right to a say.” Peter on 8 November, 2015 at 10:45 am

          It’s below this piece, which you should read also;

          http://socialistunity.com/stop-the-war-peter-tatchell-and-the-malign-legacy-of-western-liberalism/

        • 

          Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 21:52

          http://www.socialistunity.com, eh?

          Sounds like a platform for one of those myriad ultra hard left grouplets (International Marxists, International Socialists, Workers’ Revolutionary Party, etc, etc).

          That’s probably why “Macks” sounds so deranged.

  • 

    Resident Dissident June 13, 2016 at 20:59

    “The haste with which the trolls seek to pin the killings in Orlando on Islam” was of course outdone by your haste to pin the responsibility on US imperialism.
    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/metropolitan-police-evidence-torture-extraordinary-rendition/comment-page-3/#comments

    When will you and the other cretins realise that the US and western democracies do not have a monopoly on original sin.

• 

  michael norton June 13, 2016 at 16:48

  Under pressure from Donald Trump to connect the Orlando massacre with the attacker’s religion, Hillary Clinton broke with President Barack Obama today and defined the assault as ‘radical Islamism.’

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3639027/I-m-happy-call-radical-Islamism-pressure-Trump-Hillary-ditches-Obama-calls-Orlando-attack-radical-Islamism.html#ixzz4BTVWkyYi

  There you have it from the mouth of the mare.

• 

  John Goss June 13, 2016 at 18:11

  Republic of Ireland leading Sweden 1 – 0 with a stunning volley from open play.

  • 

    michael norton June 13, 2016 at 18:35

    FRENCH admirals back Brexit, say it would slam ‘screeching brakes’ on EU army plans
    https://www.rt.com/uk/346495-eu-army-brexit-french/

    • 

      YouKnowMyName June 13, 2016 at 20:16

      I take your FrAmirals MN, and raise them with a Polish Politicos predict the end of the world. . . ‘European Council president Donald Tusk says a UK vote to leave the EU could threaten “Western political civilisation”‘ [BBC headline, I couldn’t be bothered to read the actual farticle] 🙂

• 

  Macky June 13, 2016 at 18:54

  @Habba_Clown Troll, thanks for the great laugh ! 😀

  You have buried, dug-up, decapitated, & reburied poor old Satire !

  Damaging the reputation of this blog is your prime motive here, so do the decent thing for this Bog, and simply disappear ! 😀

• 

  Silvio June 13, 2016 at 19:00

  So just who are the real anti-Semites?

  Israel’s Silent Allies Are Its Worst Enemy
  Former PM notes ‘signs of fascism,’ but West ignores danger.
  By Murray Dobbin, 11 Jun 2016
  Israeli political commentator Michael Brizon, who writes under the pseudonym B. Michael, concluded the failure of Western governments to criticize what is happening in Israel is itself a new form of anti-Semitism. Writing in a Haaretz op-ed titled ”Yet Again the Jewish People Face Great Danger and the World Is Silent,” Brizon lamented the fact that the greatest danger to Israel is now from within, not from its traditional enemies. ”With our very own hands, we anointed the Huns who rule over us.”
  The irony for Michael is palpable: Israel’s promise has been lost, he wrote, and ”all that remains is a big mouth, brandished fist, and endless hidden hatred, militarism, paganism, and self-righteousness. And the world is silent.”
  That silence is what terrifies Michael: ”…if you persist in your silence, you indifferent world, that will be categorical proof that you really are anti-Semitic, exactly as we’ve always been told.”

  http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/06/11/Israel-Worst-Enemy/?utm_source=weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=130616

  • 

    Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 20:01

    You are, for starters.

  • 

    Habbabkuk (floreat Etona!) June 13, 2016 at 20:06

    Here’s what The Tyee’s (cited by Berlusconi) says about itself on its cover page:

    “The Tyee strives to be a widely read and respected independent online magazine that publishes news, reviews and commentary not typically covered by B.C. and Canada’s mainstream media. We aim to inform and enliven the democratic conversation necessary to improve environmental, economic and social conditions.”

    That’s why it has a “story” about Israel in its front page.

    Hatred assumes many disguises.

    • 

      nevermind (meiere in faciem) June 13, 2016 at 21:03

      Exactly Silvio, thanks.
      Monseigneur Cacophonous Habbicus delirious, above, just does not realise that Israel is eating itself, provides no future for its children. Who wants their children to live in war, with hatred eating up society, a pariah on the world stage, projected militarism and interference in the neighbours resources and assets.
      Israel will destroy itself from within, because so much hatred for others can’t be channelled to sound positive and appealing.

      • 

        Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 21:15

        I have noticed that whenever there is a major Islamic terrorist attack, the Israel obsessives on this blog start sounding off their fantasies about Israel ceasing to exist.

        It’s just weird.

        • 

          Oh the humanity June 13, 2016 at 21:58

          Oh dear, has there been yet another mass murder? I heard about the one committed by the violent groupie of Bloomberg’s personal army, the NYPD – saw his pictures posing in their regalia – was there a new one, by Islamists?

        • 

          Slapsticke June 13, 2016 at 22:59

          Yes, quite, Graham Fuller brought the boy’s palaar to CONUS as a Muj, lent him money for a rug store or whatever dismal bone they throw the small fry. Bit of a Walter Mitty, isn’t it? Mateen minor inherited Dad’s inferiority complex and then some. CIA and Mossad tweaked it till the boy was NYPD material, a downright psychotic nitwit. Same routine as with Ruslan’s nephew, same old strategia della tensione. Fuller’s toned it down a bit, at least. Spared us the corny snapshots of anguished casualties and heroic bumboys capering with American flags. Wise, that. What decent man of human feeling can view the Boston Marathon photos without laughing?

        • 

          Lord Haw-Haw June 13, 2016 at 23:28

          Indeed, the boy worked for G4S, or whatever they call themselves today. They’ve recruited a preeminent corps of zoomers. They hired Tom Hall to blow up the Olympics, panicked the London embassy with that squib in their truck, and stampeded Old Trafford with that toy bomb. Chris Reid’s the D.G. of Fucking Up.

  • 

    Ben Monad June 13, 2016 at 22:07

    Rome rotted from the inside. The Barbarians just nudged the culture for total collapse.

• 

  Republicofscotland June 13, 2016 at 19:02

  Habb.

  Unrequited love, (regarding desperation to be a mod) must surely be a tragic thing. Like Juliet awakening to find Romeo dead, Habb, just can’t seem to comprehend that he’ll never see his beloved name, next to the word moderator. He truly is a star crossed commentor.

  No doubt if one listens hard enough, the faint tragic tear filled cries of Habb, mumbling “moderatorship, wherefore art thou moderatorship.” ?

• 

  nevermind June 13, 2016 at 19:19

  You are trying to derail and shut this blog down with your control freakery, aren’t you?
  poor Habbs, we have to buy you a little present. Maybe thjis will change your fortune here.

  https://www.flamingogifts.co.uk/occasions-c117/novelty-gifts-c119/hyperlip-the-weird-best-lips-in-town-p2502/s2835?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=hyperlip-the-weird-amp-best-lips-in-town&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=CJvNx8jOpc0CFZEK0wodj8wLvA

• 

  John Spencer-Davis June 13, 2016 at 22:20

  “The main issue isn’t that Mateen is of Islamic origin, it’s that a violent and emotionally unstable person who had been investigated by the FBI for his extremist views was allowed to legally purchase the weapons he used to massacre dozens of people.”

  A typically robust view of Donald Trump’s narcissism and the easy availability of guns from Thomas G. Clark.

  http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/donald-trumps-incoherent-and.html

  • 

    Ben Monad June 13, 2016 at 22:30

    France preceded Orlando and France has some of the toughest gun laws, so what consistency can you glean from both instances? How about ‘People’? How can we contain psycho citizens? Any high-capacity knives or machetes in the UK? Maybe knives can be eliminated and then paper-cuts from nasty instruments like….paper…could become contraband. Let’s be safe people !

    • 

      Ben Monad June 13, 2016 at 22:34

      What can we do about the proliferation of sharp instruments of death?

      http://news.sky.com/story/1219600/china-stabbing-33-killed-in-station-massacre

• 

  John Goss June 13, 2016 at 22:31

  I’ve just watched Italy 2 Belgium 0 and Italy look strong contenders with fast but relaxed play. They produced 3 professional fouls where Belgium could have had a run at goal, but that seems to be par for the game these days.

  I am consoled to see nobody yet has come to the defence of the deplorable England commentators who made a concerted effort to make sure the ‘foul’ from which England went one up was never shown again. We have reached a stage where we no longer have any shame, not just on the field but in the commentary box. It is win at all costs – which is of course technically cheating. This win at all costs attitude, like three or four years back when Stuart Broad refused to walk after being caught in slips to a thick edge, is the culture of dishonesty from which the next generation is learning. It is the bankers’ mentality, the mentality of public schools, the mentality of governments.

  I have seen tennis players acknowledge a ball being in when it technically cost them a point. I have seen golfers acknowledge accidentally moving a ball and other misdemeanours which rightfully cost them shots. But it is honesty in sport. In cricket in the past fielders have acknowledged that the ball touched the ground before being caught. Now we have to have cameras. What chance do sportsmen and women have when our sports’ commentators are as bad as our newsreaders?

  • 

    glenn_uk June 14, 2016 at 00:55

    Did you see the foul play against Wales last Saturday? Even the English commentators were shocked – a linesman was watching the foul directly from mere yards away, and never saw a thing. Just unbelievable. Winning, even after the other side commits blatant fouls, feigns attacks against themselves, in short cheats shamelessly with the indulgence of the ref – that is one of the sweetest victories.

    • 

      John Goss June 14, 2016 at 15:03

      I agree glenn_uk: it was a solid victory and well deserved. My fellow countrymen need to be aware that there is a man called Gareth Bale on the pitch on Thursday. It looks like being a good game.

      Roy Hodgson did all right for the Baggies and he is a good club manager. At this level he’s out of his depth. He proved it in the World Cup and I am surprised they gave him a second chance. It was a mistake to get rid of Sven but there again I am not racist even if there are some who believe unwaveringly that the England manager should be English at all costs. When I was young there was a similar mentality with Yorkshire cricket: “Tha can’t play for Yorkshire unless tha’s a Yorkshireman.” Such parochial attitudes belong in the parish dustbin.

• 

  Ben Monad June 13, 2016 at 22:41

  What better way to keep your police State than by eliminating all means for citizens to protect themselves from the Authorities. Yes. Let’s make Fascism safe for Fascists. It’s your patriotic duty.

• 

  Anon1 June 13, 2016 at 22:42

  So Gorgon McDoom has waded into the EU debate, thus securing tens of thousands more votes for Leave.

  All we need now is for Juncker to pay a visit.

• 

  Macky June 13, 2016 at 22:43

  Two from the man in the Embassy;

  http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/wikileaks-founder-assange-backs-brexit/news-story/098ef1fce6a87096b21fca731e1e5f80

  http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/12/wikileaks-to-publish-more-hillary-clinton-emails-julian-assange

  Interesting insight that the Government is repeatedly using the EU as political cover, and that he doesn’t think Clinton.will be indicted, but that the FBI might get concession instead, so I wonder what these could be ?

  • 

    Ben Monad June 13, 2016 at 22:53

    The European Arrest Warrant sounds like there is no more need for extradition treaties, as though INTERPOL could just go grab someone and render us all speechless again.

• 

  Alan June 13, 2016 at 23:25

  Georgia Cops Kill Innocent Man After Responding to Wrong Address

  http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/06/georgia-cops-kill-innocent-man-after-responding-to-wrong-address/

  Georgia cops responding to a call of a woman in distress ended up responding to the wrong home, shooting and killing a 63-year-old man who had stepped into his garage with a gun to investigate what he thought were intruders.

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