I Will Vote Remain Because I Love My Mum 543


After voting tomorrow I shall fly down to take part in an alternative online referendum results programme from the Ecuadorian Embassy with Julian Assange, to give you a chance to hear a discussion of the results without having to listen to yet more neo-liberal spokesmen spouting establishment propaganda.

It is no secret I am an enthusiast for the EU. However as an ardent Scottish nationalist it has of course crossed my mind that it might be a plan to vote tactically for Brexit, to provoke a new independence referendum.

I have decided against this for two reasons. First, there is no way the Establishment is going to allow Brexit to happen. And second, I love my mum, who is English and moved back from Inverness to Norfolk following the death of my father a decade ago. I wish England and the English nothing but well. It would be wrong to wish harm on the English to further a tactical gain for Scottish independence – which is coming anyway.

I cannot vote Leave in the hope that England will leave and Scotland remain, believing that would harm England. Besides, an independent Scotland inside the EU would be disadvantaged by having its only land border with an ailing England outside the EU.

Having successfully kept the EU debate off the blog, I think for the last day we can fill our boots. I like the EU because it has in truth burnt internal national borders. I like the EU because we cannot control EU internal immigration. I love all the vibrant Europeans who have moved here, and the fact I can leave whenever I wish and settle in Lodz or Naples. Without the EU immigrant influx, the UK would have experienced zero economic growth for the last ten years.

There is one anti-EU argument I detest worse than anything Nigel Farage has ever said. It is the “left wing” argument that immigration depresses wages for British workers.

This argument is pure racism. It presupposes that the chance that a British worker might get £10 rather than £9 an hour, is more important than giving a Romanian worker moving here the chance to get £9 an hour rather than £3. Just because one is British and one is Romanian. Racism, pure and simple.

There is of course a much more sophisticated argument about the massive economic boost given by migration increasing demand in the economy, including for labour. If migration harmed an economy the United States and Germany would be the poorest countries in the world, yet they are not.

But I prefer to point out the inherent racism of the Little Englander wages argument, because it pricks the “left-wing” credentials of those who make it.

I am a strong internationalist and I view the EU as the most solid achievement of internationalism to date. The danger of the EU has always been that its internal freedoms would be accompanied by barriers to the world outside, but that is decreasingly true in the economic field as trade barriers have fallen radically, especially to the developing world. It is only an increasing problem in the migration field with the EU reacting to the refugee crisis – whose acuteness is a direct result of neo-con war policy destabilising the Islamic world.

The EU has great supra-national institutions. These are broadly politically neutral. They are used for neo-liberalism at the moment because at the moment most European governments, including the British one, are neo-liberal. But neo-liberalism will not prevail forever. Its consequences in terms of economic insecurity for the many and an exponential increase in extreme wealth for the few, are already undermining popular consent. As only a few diehard economists cling to trickledown theory, the obvious consequences for social stability have started to undermine the intellectual confidence of the elite and their propagandists.

To put that another way, the cleverer rich (ie not Philip Green) have started to realise that if things go on this way, they will be decorating lamp-posts.

The pendulum swings back towards social democracy. Trade treaties with clauses demanding the breaking up of state ownership will fall into abeyance for a few more decades. They are in any event by no means confined to the EU. Banking regulation will, bit by bit, strengthen. Action on tax havens will accrue incrementally.

The EU is a powerful potential force for economic regulation, and we will see it being put to that proper purpose again, with a little patience.


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543 thoughts on “I Will Vote Remain Because I Love My Mum

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  • Ruth

    How to fix a referendum:

    1) Create mass media bias
    2) Position plants who will later defect
    3) If the media bias doesn’t work, stage a monumental event
    4) Manipulate opinion polls carried out by companies with government/Establishment links so the public believe both parties are neck and neck
    5) Work with broadcasters to make sure there are no exit polls. Exit polls give a very accurate indication of how the public voted.
    6) Rig the vote through swapping of processed postal ballot slips stored in boxes in council offices overnight or en route to counting centres. Manipulating say 20% of the vote should do the trick.
    7) Create a scare story on the eve of the referendum so one party is tainted as violent just in case one party has more than 70% votes
    8) When people cry foul, distract them with a major report

  • Eric Smiff

    Julian Assange / Wikileaks rose to prominence in order instigate the Arab Spring for the NED (aka CIA). Assange isn’t a prisoner of Ecuador, but (more likely) of MI6 after he was sprung from a 10 year prison sentence for hacking in Australia. Everything about his antics screams ‘fraud’ including his previous incarceration in the stately home of Vaughn Smith, an embedded journalist with the British army with ‘security services’ in his blue blood..

      • Eric Smiff

        If you were in a bit of a fix, how many dudes with stately homes do you know ? How many nights have you spent in London gentleman’s clubs ?

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/house-arrest-on-an-estate-so-big-his-tag-may-not-work-2162641.html

        How many times have you been set free when you had just been told you faced 10 years in jail ?

        http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2006496,00.html#ixzz16cuIO0Fz

        Wikileaks is a fraud Guardian – John Young http://goo.gl/AbCV

        “But the group ran in to problems even before WikiLeaks was launched. The organisers approached John Young, who ran another website that posted leaked documents, Cryptome, and asked him to register the WikiLeaks website in his name. Young obliged and was initially an enthusiastic supporter but when the organisers announced their intention to try and raise $5m he questioned their motives, saying that kind of money could only come from the CIA or George Soros. Then he walked away.

        “WikiLeaks is a fraud,” he wrote in an email when he quit. “Fuck your cute hustle and disinformation campaign against legitimate dissent. Same old shit, working for the enemy.” Young then leaked all of his email correspondence with WikiLeak’s founders, including the messages to Ellsberg.”

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Eric Smiff,

      You are not supposed to notice these things. He’s back in the Ecuadorian Embassy now, for visits from both Noam Chomsky (who has been funded by MIT Department of Linguistics (Military Industrial Complex) despite slagging them off for the last 50 years) and Craig Murray – both International Socialists.

      Well Done.

      Tony

  • DrNobby

    Honest, but wrong. How can you not see all the bad, the incompetence, the corruption, the greed, the corpocratic vested interests, the desperation of the Remain campaign. This cannot be fixed by the UK staying in Europe.

    Jeez, none so blind as those who don’t want to see.

    • Tom Welsh

      “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard”.

      – H. L. Mencken

      • lysias

        At least here in the U.S., the elite in recent years have proved incompetent at everything except assuring their own short-term interests. They have certainly not established that they have any right to rule. They have forfeited whatever right their predecessors may have had.

        Give the common people the power to rule, and, whether they make mistakes or not, their rule will at least have legitimacy.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Here two mighty forces are at stake. Old tested by blood nationalism and new and (now) ever developing globalism.

    Ever since the beginning of the Common Europe project seeds of future globalisation were planted. Tested on the region that was torn by wars during millennials but also had so much in common (religion, culture, desire to overcome distractions of WWII) seeds produced good result. But as every successfully planted seeds the project become ever expanding. If you think that EU borders are limited by Baltic states in the East and Greece/Cyprus in the South you are wrong. Think about all the depended territories which France, Netherlands, UK, Spain, Portugal have. Today EU could truly be compared to the Hapsburg’s Empire, the empire on which the sun never sets.

    Those who think that by voting Remain they do good to those (less well off) Europeans they are wrong. Look what has (and is) happened in the East. In Bulgaria, Poland and Baltic states most of the economically active and the brightest people have moves West in search of better life. Many of those with degree doing manual and low skilled jobs for better pay than they would have had at home. Yes, part of their wages go to support their relatives at home and boost economy, and yes millions of Westerner go East each year for stag dues and cheep booze fuelling tourist and prostitution industries there. But EU also drained East of human resources and with little exception shut down (or at least greatly reduced) industrial output those countries had before. Factories in Poland and Baltic states could not (for quite good reasons) hold competition against factories in Germany and Netherlands. The biggest winners of EU were (are) those richest of the members. It opened up large market for German factories and so called financial markets for London to exploit. It also provided cheap (comparing to local) labour force and further fuelled economic boom in Western countries. Some of it (like small breadcrumbs) reached East. But in comparison West was the true winner of EU expansion.

    Those who think voting Leave would improve lives of ordinary people in the UK are wrong. The wages will not go up simple because they cannot. Start paying good old Brits double the wages which have been paid to those (bloodsucking) Polls would destroy any enterprise. Simply because the goods and services will become double the price tag and thus uncompetitive. Would you simply buy strawberries picked by old good Brits for £4 or would you buy one picked by Polls in Netherlands for £2? Even with increased tariff the latter would still cost cheaper. If the tariffs are increased to the protectionist level then simply there will be another problem. Good old inflation will kick in destroying everything Leave crowd was hoping for. Very soon good old Brits would realise that even that doubled wage they are paid is not enough to buy strawberries and pay for the services which have costed half of that when (bloodsucking) Polls were allowed to stay and work. To add to that the market will now be much smaller (with no tariff free trade with EU). Prices of good and services produced by old good Brits for export will still be decided by fat cats in Brussels but with Brits mouth wide shut. Houses will not become cheaper for the same reason. The wages for good old Brits will need to be doubled meaning every new build house or every refurbishment project will cost double of what it was when (bloodsucking) Polls were allowed to stay and work.

    So, think carefully about all cons and pros and vote for what you think is better for you and (if you are long term thinker) for what if better for your children!

    • Martinned

      the Hapsburg’s Empire, the empire on which the sun never sets.

      Huh?

      In Bulgaria, Poland and Baltic states most of the economically active and the brightest people have moves West in search of better life.

      And yet the people that are left still manage to grow the economy faster than anywhere else in Europe. And that’s not due to remittances.

      Would you simply buy strawberries picked by old good Brits for £4 or would you buy one picked by Polls in Netherlands for £2?

      Congratulations, you’ve discovered factor price equalisation. That officially puts you ahead of both the Leave camp and the Remain camp, in terms of understanding of basic economics.

  • RobG

    I’ll chuck this into the mix:

    “European Union has a track history of ignoring the vote of the people. Referenda are only welcome if they approve the official policy of the European Union. If the people didn’t vote as requested, the governments used to arrange an information campaign and repeat the referendum until the outcome is convenient or the referendum result is ignored or twisted.

    Denmark voted in the referendum in June 1992 against the Maastricht treaty, the re-negotiated version was approved in a second referendum in May 1993.
    In 2001 Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice, in a second referendum 2002 it was approved.

    France voted in May 2005 against the proposed European Constitution. Referenda would have also to be held in Czech, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Portugal and the UK. As the risk of more refusals was too high, the European Union decided to modify the text and sign them as treaty by the national governments, this is what we have today as Treaty of Lisbon.”

    https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/21/greece-open-letter-to-the-uk-citizens-about-the-june-2016-referendum/

    • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

      Must say that I don’t favor popular voting, especially referenda, much.

      Individuals, while often good company, are pretty terrible when it comes to casting ballots. They almost always serve their intense, special interests.

      Just look at what is going on in the USA. The world would be faced with lunatic The Donald running it if it were not for super delegates, particularly the Democrat ones.

      And referenda achieve little as they just serve narrow interests, like entities breaking up into smaller parts.

      While the EU needs reform, it would not even exist without the enlightenment of a few.

      • Tom Welsh

        “Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”.

        – Sir Winston Churchill (House of Commons, 11 Nov 1947)

        • laguerre

          In that case, TW, it’s unfortunate that you’re ready to surrender your freedom to the right-wing cabal that will be in power, if Brexit is voted.

    • Jim

      You might notice the minor detail that the ‘open letter from the Greek people’ is not actually signed by anybody. Tyler Durden is the nom-de bull of notorious Russbot propaganda outlets in case anybody didn’t know.

      • Tony_0pmoc

        I did research where Tyler Durden actually came from, but I can’t remember exactly what I found. So far as I remember, the origin is a character in some film Fight Club or something close and I think he comes from somewhere in Eastern Europe – not Russia.

        Most of his audience are quite clearly American – and most of it about financial markets including how corrupt they are. I think he’s a goldbug… I ‘ve never seen any Russbot propaganda – and suspect he dislikes Russians even more than you do. Personally I don’t have much of problem with Russians, and they can drink considerably more than me without falling over.

        Tony

      • lysias

        Well, for a real Greek view of the EU, read Varoufakis’s books, most notably his most recent one, And the Weak Suffer What They Must?: Europe’s Crisis and America’s Economic Future. It’s scathing on the quality of the EU’s leadership.

        • Jim

          But he also argues passionately for the UK to remain a part of it, and to join the rest of Europe in ‘taming the monster’.

          • lysias

            That’s based on an optimistic, in my opinion overoptimistic view of what the EU can develop into. One can certainly disagree with him over that, and still accept his account of what he personally witnessed in dealing with the EU’s leaders.

          • Jim

            Fair enough, I’ll go with the optimists personally. The alternatives, the potential ramifications of Brexit leading to the breakup of the EU altogether are pretty dire according to Varoufakis’ predictions.

      • Tom Welsh

        Er, Jim, you seem to be infringing Craig’s ground rules by poisoning the well.

    • Martinned

      Literally none of those examples involve the result of the vote being ignored. In each case voters’ objections were taken into account and the treaty in question was modified or scuttled.

  • Dave Price

    Craig,

    I will vote to remain in the EU for all the positive reasons you give, plus some environmental reasons you did not include.

    However, this section seems odd to me:

    “It is the “left wing” argument that immigration depresses wages for British workers.

    This argument is pure racism. It presupposes that the chance that a British worker might get £10 rather than £9 an hour, is more important than giving a Romanian worker moving here the chance to get £9 an hour rather than £3. Just because one is British and one is Romanian. Racism, pure and simple”.

    It sounds like you are presupposing that Romanian workers will work in Britain for £9 or less an hour doing exactly the same work that a British worker could do here only for £10 or more, and that this is a good thing. How can it be right to pay a Romanian worker in Britain less than a British worker for the same work? By your argument, that is racism pure and simple.

    • John Goss

      “How can it be right to pay a Romanian worker in Britain less than a British worker for the same work?”

      I helped a Romanian friend find work, and helped him with the paperwork. One day waiting to pick him up from the warehouse I talked to someone who used to work there (for eight years) who is English. The conditions are terrible not because they are dangerous but because the wages are minimum, the hours unsocial, they work on zero-hours contract, and there are quite a few slack periods. On top of that workers have to clock in and out for tea-breaks and all kinds of other adverse conditions which a good union could put right. There is a huge turnover of personnel and I suspect anybody trying to form a union would be one of the first to go.

      I am left-wing and would never use the argument that immigrant workers depress wages for English people. Lack of a coordination of the workforce, fear of losing a shit job and not being able to find another, shortage of time due to long working hours to earn a living wage, initial language problems: these are some of the problems facing migrant workers. Most English people would never contemplate this kind of work. In a decade or so wages in Romania should be much higher and coming to England will not be as attractive a prospect. I would be very happy to give the racists who inhabit this blog an introduction for the opportunity to work at this warehouse. Any takers? I thought not.

      • Dave Price

        John Goss wrote:

        “Lack of a coordination of the workforce, fear of losing a shit job and not being able to find another, shortage of time due to long working hours to earn a living wage, initial language problems: these are some of the problems facing migrant workers. Most English people would never contemplate this kind of work”.

        I think we’re in agreement, just coming from a different direction.

        I can ask my question to Craig in a different way: how can it be right for Romanians to do the kind of jobs John Goss describes?

          • Dave Price

            “No one’s making them, that’s why it’s right.”

            I’m reading that as irony, right? You’re saying that since it is obvious that people can be compelled by economic necessity to do things they would very much rather not do for very little recompense, it is self-evidently missing the point to say they can walk away any time they wish.

          • Martinned

            “compelled by economic necessity”??? All EU Member States have welfare states. Romanians may or may not be entitled to benefits in the UK, depending on their work history, but they’re definitely entitled to benefits in Romania.

            BTW, that phrase reminds me of something unrelated but awesome:

            Art. 41(2)(2) of the Constitution of Ireland: “The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”

          • Dave Price

            OK so not irony.

            Thank goodness there is still the odd country here and there that can supply workers that can stand such conditions!

    • craig Post author

      No. What it is addressing is the argument that Romanians depress wages, so either a Romanian or a British worker would get £9 an hour, whereas if you took the Romanians out of the picture the wage might rise to £10 an hour due to the reduced supply of labour.

      • Loony

        What is so special about Romanians? US Labor Force Participation rates are back at 1978 levels – 94.6 million Americans of working age are not working, why not bring them in to cover the labor shortage.

        10.6 million South Africans live on less than ZAR11/day (that is something less than 50p) why not bring them in?

        Surely elevating the needs of Romanians above the needs of other people is manifestly racist.

        Why is what is happening to Romanians of any more or of any less concern to British people than what is happening to people in other parts of the world?

        • Martinned

          There is nothing in the European treaties that prevents Britain from letting people from all over the world come and work here.

          • Tom Welsh

            Except the fact that Britain is already crowded, and EC law requires us to let in as many of the 680 million (non-UK) EU citizens as wish to come. That means space, let alone jobs or resources, will be at a premium.

          • Martinned

            Except the fact that Britain is already crowded

            No it’s not, certainly not outside London.

            EC law requires us to let in as many of the 680 million (non-UK) EU citizens as wish to come

            No it doesn’t. (And no, that’s not how many EU citizens there are.)

            let alone jobs or resources, will be at a premium.

            Lump of work fallacy = no they won’t.

          • glenn_uk

            Why in the heck would we want to? More to the point, why should we allow ourselves to be forced to?

        • Tom Welsh

          “Surely elevating the needs of Romanians above the needs of other people is manifestly racist”.

          Spot on.

      • Dave Price

        Craig,

        I dispute that there is an undersupply of suitable indigenous labour (except perhaps for the terrible jobs that John Goss describes, for good reason). To take your example, an indigenous worker, keenly aware of what an adequate indigenous lifestyle requires, would take a particular job if it paid £10 or more an hour. If an employer offered less, then no indigenous person would take that job. So in order to fill the vacancy an employer would have to offer £10 or more an hour. This would be the case even if there were already an oversupply of indigenous workers able and willing to work for £10 or more an hour but no less. Introducing a supply of workers prepared to work for less than £10 will change the dynamic adversely for the indigenous population.

        • Martinned

          Introducing a supply of workers prepared to work for less than £10 will change the dynamic adversely for the indigenous population.

          Yes. They will now be able to take their benefits check and buy things for a pound that used to cost a pound fifty.

          • Dave Price

            “Yes. They will now be able to take their benefits check and buy things for a pound that used to cost a pound fifty”.

            Because all that matters to people needing state support are objects costing around £1.50? Interesting view you have of your fellow humans.

        • michael norton

          Just a Cocklepicking minute

          How much were the Chinese paid to gather English cockles in Lancashire
          less than English workers, I’ll be bound.
          Disgraceful, they should have been paid an equal amount of money as English cocklepickers.

        • Dave Price

          Martinned said:

          “Or maybe because that’s the number I made up for the purposes of the comment?”

          Ah I hadn’t realised the game we were playing was just to make stuff up.

          British workers will now be able to take their benefits check and buy houses for 1M that used to cost 1.5M.

  • David

    It’s leave for me.

    Sod the economic argument, its doesn’t hold water either way. If we vote leave the pound drops, possibly quite a long way to start with. Good. What no one is pointing out about that is that a weak pound means our exports increase our imports decrease, manufacturers start to produce products in the UK rather than importing them, creating jobs in the medium term. We have zero inflation which is not a good thing, ideally 2.5 to 3% is healthy for the economy. lower pound means “some” prices will increase ( not all by a long way) creating some inflation, once we have inflation we can raise interest rates back to normal levels. This very act attracts currency into the country ( especially as most other major economies interest rates are zero or worse) the effect of that is a strengthening pound. Short term it will probably be a bit painful, but no worse than any other recession, certainly not the catastrophe the remain camp espouse. Eventually things balance out again in the medium term. The long term is down to global economics and not governments. The immigration issue is a massive red herring. We have approx. 1.2 million unemployed, we have approx.3 million foreign workers in the UK currently, without immigration we have a huge labour shortage ! So even out we still need people. As for immigration depressing wages ? what tosh…. we have a national minimum wage, most of the jobs taken by overseas workers are min wage jobs anyway. The UK is actually at a stage of almost full employment, historically we have a million people who wont work anyway.

    As a small business in the North West that exports to the EU and the rest of the world I’m not worried about leaving the EU. All the arguments about having to comply to sell into the EU is stuff and nonsense, of course we would have to comply to EU regs, just as we have to comply to USA regs, South African regs, Australian regs…or the regulations of any country we export to. WTO rules leave us with a 4% tariff on our goods, with a predicted 30+% drop in the value of the pound I can swallow that 4% easily. To be honest we could absorb the tariff without a weak pound

    The only reason I am voting leave is to try an hang on to what little democracy we have left. The EU is not a democratic organisation, its run by faceless people who cannot be voted out no matter how much we don’t like what they do ( neither can the be mandated to carry on if we do like what they do) British democracy is flawed, no doubt about that, but we can change that if we want to. We cannot change the EU from the inside, we have been trying for decades to no avail. Vote leave to protect democracy and financial accountability of our government, vote remain to surrender what little rights you have left.

    But most importantly…… Vote for something either way !

  • Bright Eyes

    Norman Smith on the BBC is predicting Cameron will depart either way because of gridlock and division in the party and parliament and maybe even another general election.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    Oh, I see, the two reasons you want Reman to win are: Britain won’t allow it, your mother moved to Norfolk, and it would hurt both Scotland and England.

    Reminds me of that episode in Monty Python when one of them was explaining his enumerated reasons for something.

  • bevin

    The basiuc problem with the EU is that it is not only not democratic but deliberately designed to avoid democracy.
    Decisions by elected persons, and these are always indirectly elected, are on a ‘take it or leave it’ basis. Hence the TTIP and other similar agreements which enormously compromise popular (not necessarily national) sovereignty are negotiated at great length in enormous detail in strict privacy. Their written form (which is considerably less than the negotiated ‘content’) is only released when everything has been prepared to railroad them through, in toto.
    The Press is brought or bought on side, the treaty is spun into its most saleable form, its meaning is obscure and obscured (remaining so until revealed in practice in the form of anti-social consequences), votes are lined up and the thing is passed by persons never elected to deal with such matters, often incapable of understanding them, blithely ignorant of their meanings and, for the most part, much more interested in the buffet awaiting them at lunchtime, where they will meet their mistresses.
    Craig argues that the neo-liberal phase in Europe will pass. And so it will but it will leave behind it a legacy in the form of a legislative prison: re-nationalisation will be ‘illegal’ except on terms so favourable to the corporate sector that it will be impracticable. And that is just one example: the Euro is another. There are dozens more. For years the European Commission has been beavering away to protect corporations-both European and Foreign- from being governed. So has the WTO, so has the US government.
    Like the old Empires on which it is modeled the EU cannot be reformed. Its architects designed it to be so leaving the people with the daunting knowledge that they must either accept the EU in its current shape or be ready to risk all in a revolution.
    The Little Englander argument that you make about wage differentials is false. The problem is that the EU makes it impossible for the British to do the right thing and to say to potential immigrants: ‘You are welcome to come here and work. By doing so you will become members of Trade Unions and share in all the benefits of membership. What we will not countenance-and nobody can call it racism- are employers undercutting wage rates, either by cash reductions or by lowering conditions of work. Nor will we countenance homelessness or slums. ”
    Real racism in this matter consists of telling people that they will be governed in the interests of foreigners forever. And that it is for their own good that it should be so.
    One more brief note: you say that Scottish Independence is inevitable. You are probably correct. But the question is of what will it consist? What powers will Holyrood have to make a reality of the idea of Scots governing themselves? It is a question that the Greeks can answer.

    • Martinned

      Decisions by elected persons, and these are always indirectly elected, are on a ‘take it or leave it’ basis.

      Yeah, that’s not how either branch of the EU legislature works.

      Hence the TTIP and other similar agreements

      Such agreements are negotiated based on mandates given by the EU legislature. Such a mandate document can be and is heavily amended in the process towards reaching a consensus position on the EU end.

      The problem is that the EU makes it impossible for the British to do the right thing and to say to potential immigrants: ‘You are welcome to come here and work. By doing so you will become members of Trade Unions and share in all the benefits of membership.

      Why exactly is that impossible? That’s pretty much what any of a number of other MS do, and what the UK used to do when it first joined.

      • bevin

        So you are suggesting that the “EU legislature” is the dominant power in the process of negotiating economic and commercial agreements?
        My view is that the Legislative Assembly has little more than general advisory powers and, in any case, is so hamstrung, by design, that it barely functions in that capacity.

          • Republicofscotland

            Speaking of the EU Commission, it has been described as “the only body paid to think European”

            Which of course would put member states at a disadvantage who didn’t agree with it. I for one never saw the attraction of a sovereign nation giving away part of sovereignty to a far off parliament propagated, by faceless bureaucrats, who are virtually unremovable.

          • Martinned

            sovereign nation giving away part of sovereignty to a far off parliament

            Tell me about it. And who needs “far off”? I still wonder why we Londoners allow the Parliament in Westminster to take our hard earned tax money to subsidise unemployed Scousers.

            virtually unremovable

            Well, unremovable except in elections, yes.

          • lysias

            In recent years, members of the U.S. House of Representatives won their elections at such a rate that they were less likely to lose office than members of the old Soviet Politburo.

          • Republicofscotland

            London does have impressive economy akin to countries such ad Sweden, Belgium and Iran.

            There have been calls in the past to make London a independent city state:

            “37% of the capital’s population was born abroad, compared to just 9% of the population outside of London.”

            “Fully 22% of Londoners – or almost 2m people – do not speak English as their first language.”

            “In fact, less than half of the population identify as “white British”, the majority group nearly everywhere else in Britain.”

            “In 2011, 49% of Londoners said that they rented their home – about half from social landlords (such as councils) and half privately. That’s probably because the average house price in London is more than twice what it is elsewhere in Britain.”

            “It is also the only part of Britain where more people get to work by public transport than drive.”

            “London has the greatest concentration of the wealthy in Europe. Almost a quarter of the population pay the higher rate of income tax (far more than nationally) while 21% of children inner-London are educated privately. But meanwhile 28% of the population live under the official poverty line.”

            https://www.buzzfeed.com/dlknowles/14-reasons-why-london-should-be-independent-and-o-fm44?utm_term=.gmqRGYN1Y#.xcqA8WRPW

            I say go for it London.

      • Tom Welsh

        Do you think that the so-called “EU Parliament” is the only legislature since the world began that is not allowed to originate legislation? If not, please name any others.

        Oh sorry, I was forgetting one previous example: ancient Sparta.

    • RobG

      Oh, and in the days before the murder of Jo Cox the Brexiteers were in the lead in the opinion polls, as much as 10% in the lead according to some polls. Likewise with the bookies, who until last weekend were giving much shorter odds to the Brexiteers.

      • bevin

        The spread between 3/1 against and 1/4 on is amazing.
        Damon Runyon said that, in a match, you should never never back more than 6/4 against anyone.

    • Loony

      RobG – Did you know that on Sunday evening someone placed a £25,000 bet on the UK to remain in the EU. This was enough to change the bookmakers odds – thus lessening the odds on remain and lengthening the odds on leave. By making a bet late on Sunday evening you made it very unlikely that anyone else could make a significant counter bet prior to London opening on Monday morning.

      People with money are paying far more attention to bookmakers odds than to opinion polls. (Indeed hedge funds distrust public opinion polls so much they have commissioned their own private polls).

      On Monday the UK stock market rose by around 3%.

      So if you have a lot of money – make a bet at the bookmakers sufficient to move the odds and then load up on bets that the UK stock market will rise. Hey presto you have won and couldn’t care less whether you collect from Ladbrokes or not.

      Everything is corrupt and everything is corrupted

        • Loony

          …and as we all know the finance sector would never countenance illegality – not when the EU is sooo keen to investigate and prosecute.

          I mean just look at how they have relentlessly pursued Deutsche Bank. Oh no that was Canada.

          • Ben Monad

            No need for an extradition treaty between member EU states.

            Cut through red tape like a hot knife through butter in the EU!

            Life is ‘butter’ in the EU..

        • Tom Welsh

          Nobody in business or politics could care less whether something is illegal. Just whether the expectation of punishment is unacceptable.

      • Tom Welsh

        “Everything is corrupt and everything is corrupted”.

        True, but then the people who live for money alone don’t see it as corrupt – just right and natural. As the sociologist Georg Simmel wrote over a century ago, if you make money the centre of your value system, then finally you have no value system, because money is not a value. We are now seeing this actually happening all around, although it is undeniably flowing downhill from the USA.

        Wait a minute – did I just imply that it’s possible to go downhill from the USA? I must have another G&T.

    • Jim

      I know it’s an attempt at irony but some of us have been aware of the fondness of the far left for the far right for quite some time. You seem to be unaware of this romantic dalliance. Labour Leave have some very odd donors to their campaign. Many on the far left have a touching fondness for Uncle Vlad and his nice friends. All very cozy.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Leave

      • nevermind

        The leave campaigns biggest donor with some £600.000 is a BNP member. When asked last night whether he would like to repatriate this sum with its owner and reject such dalliances Gove started to splutter, did not want to say much.

        • Jim

          Funny! As is the idea of Arthur Scargill on the same side as him and the Labour leave lot.

      • Tom Welsh

        “…some of us have been aware of the fondness of the far left for the far right for quite some time”.

        Actually they are one and the same, rather as in cylindrical chess. Just as Soviet “socialism” as practiced by Stalin was very similar to Fascism as practiced by Hitler and Mussolini, only somewhat more purist and supercharged.

    • Richard

      Yep, along with those other despicable slime balls Kate Hoey, Frank Field, the late Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner. Unfortunately, there are none so blind as those who will not see (Jim’s ‘attempt at irony’ repost) and it is much easier to fool people than it is to tell them that they’ve been fooled. Once people have found a target to feel superior too, they won’t give it up for hell or high water.

      Great speech by Peter Shore, by the way.

  • Eric Smiff

    Absolutely right and TTIP will be the jewel in the American client state that is the EU.

  • Republicofscotland

    “there is no way the Establishment is going to allow Brexit to happen.”

    _______________

    Could you elaborate a bit on your above sentence? Do you mean the vote will be rigged?

    • lysias

      They can also stage events. (I’m still reading the new German translation of Benjamin Hett’s book about the Reichstag Fire.)

      But the absence of exit polls does suggest an intent to rig the vote.

      • lysias

        By the way, an FBI informant who organized a meeting attended by Thomas Mair in 2000 is interviewed on this morning’s edition of Democracy Now!. He indicates that at least at that time Main was being surveilled by MI5. He also says that Mair struck him as anything but a violent person.

        • Tom Welsh

          “By the way, an FBI informant who organized a meeting attended by Thomas Mair in 2000 is interviewed on this morning’s edition of Democracy Now!”

          I take it that everyone has noticed, by now, how everyone was commits (or at least is accused of) a terrorist atrocity has been closely associated with the FBI and other “security” agencies. Also how they are never captured alive. Funny, that.

  • My Cocaine

    “The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”

    If there was ever a quote that best summed up the European Union, that was it…

    The idea that the EU is some benign force for good, a counter-weight to American hegemony, is complete and utter bollocks.

    By its actions in Greece and the Ukraine, its inept handling of the migrant crisis, and its fear and distrust of the general populace, the EU has shown itself to be an anti-democratic cabal of elites, and a menace to European values.

    • Martinned

      By its actions in Greece and the Ukraine, its inept handling of the migrant crisis, and its fear and distrust of the general populace, the EU has shown itself to be an anti-democratic cabal of elites, and a menace to European values.

      You realise that all of those things were done by elected politicians for domestic political reasons, right? Eurocrats had nothing to do with any of that.

      • Tom Welsh

        Please explain what you mean, with specifics. The Greek government was blackmailed into reversing its election platform, which could only be done by personal threats (perhaps against families). In the Ukraine, no one has been legitimately elected since Mr Yanukovych.

        • Martinned

          The Greek government was blackmailed into reversing its election platform, which could only be done by personal threats (perhaps against families). In the Ukraine, no one has been legitimately elected since Mr Yanukovych.

          Yeah, I’m not engaging in discussion with your paranoid fewer dreams. Let me know when the voices in your head come up with something slightly less insane.

  • James

    I’m sure this will already have been brought up within comments already…but how can anyone want an ‘independent Scotland’ yet want to remain within the EU?

    It’s like saying you hate guns, but love bombs.

    • Republicofscotland

      Agreed,

      Independence for Scotland should me just that, independence from Westminster and Brussels. There are non EU nations who do just fine and still trade with the EU, though they do abide by some EU regulations, they also have bilateral agreements, they’re also part of EFTA European Free Trade Association.

        • Republicofscotland

          Of course not, trade means that no nation can be completely independent, but in my opinion, it’s about surrendering minimal sovereignty, I’m sure EFTA nations only adminster partial EU laws.

          Some do not participate in EURATOM/EDA/Schengen/EU Vat/EU Customs Territory/EU Single Market/Eurozone.

    • Martinned

      Talk is cheap. I don’t know about the year 3000, but I think Britain is safe from an invasion of Turkish brown people for at least a few more decades.

      • Tom Welsh

        “I think Britain is safe from an invasion of Turkish brown people for at least a few more decades”.

        Which is more than can be said of Syria. And, judging by the people who have been entering Syria in large numbers, with heavy weapons and large quantities of ammunition and without any frontier formalities, you would NOT want them in your neighbourhood. Not unless you like being burned alive, having your head sawn off with a blunt knife, or being drowned in a cage. Or frozen to death in a meat freezer…

  • BrianPowell

    If Scotland voted to leave and the rest of the UK votes to leave that would offer no reason for a Ind Referendum. We would have voted as the rest of the UK.

  • Loony

    Here is an example of the benefits of immigration

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-24675040

    The good news is that there are many thousands more people with similar ideas.

    Imagine if people like this formed political parties. Imagine if such political parties obtained power and were funded by the EU. Oh wait you don’t have to imagine because it is all happening. That’s right the EU is funding neo-Nazi racists in the Ukraine. Because the EU is a bastion of democracy they are funding these people in your name. I am sure it makes you proud.

        • Tom Welsh

          Since 1990, the Soviets and then the Russians have moved their borders 800 miles East. They agreed to the reunification of Germany (whose people were not consulted about the matter) and they freed or moved out of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, Moldova, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Rumania, Belarus and Ukraine – as well as Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and the four -stans. For 15 years, Russia has had no armed forces stationed beyond its frontiers apart from two very small bases and some forces stationed in Armenia for mutual self-defence. It has sent forces outside its borders on two occasions: to repel the illegal aggression of Georgia in 2008, and to help the government of Syria (at its request) in 2015-16.

          Meanwhile the USA has nearly 1,000 military bases abroad, sends huge carrier task forces around the world’s oceans, and has closely hemmed in Russia with bases. It is now proceeding to do the same to China. The USA’s declared military spending accounts for about a third of the total world military spending, but the true total is probably much higher. Since 1991, the USA has launched illegal wars of aggression against Yugoslavia. Afghainstan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria – to name only the high points. In so doing it has killed well over 3 million innocent people, and destroyed half a dozen nations.

          • Jim

            That was big of them ‘freeing’ the Baltic states, I’m sure they’re all eternally grateful to their former master and bear him no ill-will for 70 years of slavery.

          • Martinned

            Since 1990, the Soviets and then the Russians have moved their borders 800 miles East.

            The only way that that makes sense is if you think that in 1990 the Soviet border was at the Elbe river. But that can’t possibly be what you’re saying, right? That your beloved Soviet Union had annexed (not just occupied, but actually annexed) Eastern Europe.

          • nevermind

            thanks Tom for bringing the facts to bear. Russia, thanks to NATO’s actions in eastern Europe will now strenghten its border forces visa vis the newly to be stationed 4000 NATO troops in the Baltic states.
            oh boy they really have made it safer didn’t they?

          • Loony

            Quite right Jim – no doubt you will hope that the citizenry of former British Empire colonies will have a rather more forgiving attitude to the British than the attitude you urge on citizens of the Baltic states.

            No doubt the Germans are also hoping that Russians may have learned to, at least in part, forgive some of the horrors that were inflicted on them.

          • Martinned

            “it’s” border, or someone else’s? Because Russia seems a little confused about where exactly its border lies. (As are its online friends, like Tom, above.)

          • Jim

            Loony :

            You may have noticed I wasn’t ‘urging’ any particular attitude at all. Merely referencing the nervousness many former Soviet satellite states presently feel about their recent master. As far as I’m aware the British empire has been an ex-parrot for about 70 odd years, and I don’t see India for instance succumbing to our grandiose paranoid ultra-nationalist aspirations any time soon.

          • Loony

            You seem to forget quite a lot Jim.

            For example you have forgotten that the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are a Hindu nationalist party who currently form the government of India. The elections in 2014 produced in an absolute majority for BJP, the first time in about 30 years that an election in India has produced an outright winner.

            If you ever travel to Gibraltar you try out your ex-empire thesis there. Alternatively if you are very rich you could try the BVI

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Well that’s The New Water Butt fitted and tested via hosepipe on the roof for The New World Order. The last one lasted 12 years but was both leaking and stinking.

    I am well stocked with beer and whisky for Friday, but haven’t bothered getting any party food in.

    I am totally convinced the Referendum is going to be bent.

    I think our chances of winning are roughly equivalent to Oldham Athletic winning at Manchester United with an obvious pro Man U Ref.

    The last time it happened away was in 1934, though we’ve done a bit better at home. The last time we beat them was in 1993 in The Premiere League.

    Still you never know. The police might finally realise that they too have sworn allegiance to The Queen and arrest The Security Services with the bent ballot boxes.

    If we win, it will be Party all weekend.

    Tony

  • Courtenay Barnett

    Craig,

    “This argument is pure racism. It presupposes that the chance that a British worker might get £10 rather than £9 an hour, is more important than giving a Romanian worker moving here the chance to get £9 an hour rather than £3. Just because one is British and one is Romanian. Racism, pure and simple.”
    It is really a rich versus poor argument relative to the chance for greater opportunity ( at least from the immigrants’ perspective).
    Enoch Powell as Minister of Health encouraged Commonwealth immigrants/West Indian migration to Britain because of the need for workers in the Health Services. Some ‘shit work’ too was ultimately done by the Caribbeans, that the indigenous did not want to do. Similar situation when it comes on to Eastern European migrants in Britain. The US reflects a similar experience when it comes on to certain categories of work relative to sections of the indigenous population which simply does not gravitate to those types of jobs.

    • Martinned

      the indigenous population which simply does not gravitate to those types of jobs.

      It’s like magic! What on earth else could explain this phenomenon?

  • Republicofscotland

    Interesting to listen to Obama on the BBC today, as he stated that Britain would be a long way behind trade negotiations to that of the EU, if we left.

    Obama then went on to say that America is only interested in trade deals with a big bloc on nations referring to the EU.

    I doubt very much Washington will surrender any of its sovereignty to Brussels, in the coming years. By that time the insidious TTIP deal will have been completed, and big US corporations will be suing any nations government that stands in their way of making a profit.

    • lysias

      Isn’t that what Obama said a couple of weeks ago? Did he say it again, or is it just the BBC bringing it up again?

      • Republicofscotland

        Lysias.

        I think it’s the latter point, the BBC bringing it up again.

    • Eric Smiff

      That is exactly the point of this. A trade deal (TTIP) between the US and the EU which will be imposed on member states.

        • YouKnowMyNamel

          I refer you to the current Michael Moore film, “who to bomb next”, or something like that. . .

          • Martinned

            Yeah, Michael Moore ranks above The Express and absolutely no one else in terms of how much I’d be inclined to believe what they say about anything.

        • lysias

          A lot of pressure is put on countries that consider exercising their veto. Why do you think Greece didn’t veto the bombing of Serbia by NATO, in which every member has a veto, in theory?

          • Martinned

            Because they understand the concept of quid pro quo across many interlinked issues? Britain is the only EU Member State who don’t get that, who seem genetically unable to negotiate in any other way than as a zero-sum game over one single issue.

    • nevermind

      he also said to Merkel that he would like to close the deal this year, which is totally unrealistic as they have not proceeded on 9/10 of the required negotiations.
      The French, with Marie Le Pen breathing heavily in the background, will not sign the deal, they are violently opposed to it, Holland hates it, so does Austria and, as already mentioned is have brought close to 2.5 million out on the streets all over Europe.
      Sorry pal, you will have to get back to unregulated drone warfare.

      • Republicofscotland

        Nevermind.

        It is the EU Commission that negotiates trade deals.

        “Through Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union the Commission has several responsibilities: to develop medium-term strategies; to draft legislation and arbitrate in the legislative process; to represent the EU in trade negotiations; to make rules and regulations, for example in competition policy; to draw up the budget of the European Union; and to scrutinise the implementation of the treaties and legislation. The rules of procedure of the European Commission set out the Commission’s operation and organisation.”

        The legitimacy of the Commission.

        “While the Commission is the executive branch, the candidates are chosen individually by the 28 national governments, which means it is not possible for a Commission Member or its President to be removed by a direct election.”

        “The fact that there are no elections for the position of Commission President calls the position’s legitimacy into question in the eyes of some. The fact that the Commission can directly decide (albeit with oversight from specially formed ‘comitology committees’) on the shape and character of implementing legislation further raises concerns about democratic legitimacy.”

        Bear the above information in mind, with regards to the behind closed doors TTIP deal. In my opinion the EU is trade orientated, not citizen orientated.

        • Martinned

          It’s the Commission that negotiates based on a mandate from the EU legislature, which subsequently has to sign off the deal if it is to enter into force.

        • Republicofscotland

          The European Commission is more than the EU’s civil service. It also has the right to propose new laws and regulations. It employs around 23,000 officials. In 2011, a think-tank estimated that more than 10,000 Commission staff were paid more than £70,000.

          Many EU decisions are taken under “qualified majority voting” rules, where countries’ voting weights depend on their size. That means countries can be outvoted, forced to accept decisions with which they disagree. Britain is outvoted more often than any other country. Between 2009 and 2015, Britain was on the losing side of 12 per cent of QMV decisions.

          By contrast, France was on the losing side of less than 1 per cent of votes. The areas where Britain was most often outvoted included the EU budget and EU foreign and security policy.

          Every month, the European Parliament – hundreds of MEPs, their staff, translators and other officials, 10,000 people in all – moves from Brussels to Strasbourg, where it sits for just four days. This “travelling circus” is widely regarded as being hugely wasteful: the Conservative Party has estimated the cost at £130 million a year.

          The House of Commons Library says that between 1993 and 2014, a total of 231 Acts of Parliament were passed because of EU membership, 24 per cent of the total. In 2010, the UK government estimated that about 50 per cent of UK legislation with “significant economic impact” originates from EU legislation.

          • Martinned

            Please, do tell me more things that I already know. But what’s your point? It’s inherent in democracy that you sometimes get outvoted, and more so if your opinions are further away from the median voter. You can’t simultaneously complain about a lack of democracy and about being outvoted.

            (Also, the UK permanent representation in Brussels used to be very, very good, but there’s a limit even they can do if this country’s elected politicians care more about deliberately annoying other European countries than about engaging in constructive diplomacy. And that shows up in the results of votes.)

          • Republicofscotland

            ” You can’t simultaneously complain about a lack of democracy ”

            _________

            Former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi says he was forced from office by EU technocrats, who were fed up with his tabloid antics. Even if you do not believe that conspiracy theory, it is certainly the case that after Berlusconi resigned he was replaced by former European Commission member Mario Monti, who was appointed to run an interim government — and he did not hold elections for two years. No matter how you look at it, democracy was suspended in the world’s eighth-largest economy for two years.

            I’m sure Berlusconi would like to have a word with you on EU democracy.

          • lysias

            Anyone who thinks there might be something to be said for the EU’s current leadership needs to read Varoufakis’s new book.

          • Martinned

            Yeah, I’m definitely not going to believe a word out of Berlusconi’s mouth. And how parliament voting out one PM and then voting in another one is a suspension of democracy is beyond me. Last I checked, that is how parliamentary democracy is supposed to work.

        • nevermind

          RoS, yes they are chosen and selected by the 28 states, which if they all agree to change this equation of unelected finance stooges, well, not on their own, we have to help them somewhat by polishing lamp posts, then they can change this unaccountability.

    • Eric Smiff

      Were the U.K. to exit the EU, Obama continued, “maybe some point down the line, there might be a U.K.-U.S. trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen anytime soon.”

      “The U.K. is going to be in the back of the queue,” the President said. But the prospects for U.S.-EU deal, known as the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Pact (TTIP), are not looking particularly good, as the deal has been slammed by politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Britain’s exit from the EU could make TTIP even less likely, perhaps giving a boost to the U.S.-U.K. trade deal. However, Jeffrey Rathke, a former U.S. State Department official, said the current political climate in the U.S. might be hostile to any potential trade deal and he noted that while a UK deal “might not be at the back of the queue, that doesn’t matter if the queue isn’t moving.”

      http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/21/politics/what-brexit-means-for-the-united-states/

      • michael norton

        The Donald wants the U.K. out of the hated E.U.
        he has also said ( his mum is Scottish) the U.K.
        will certainly not be at the back of any queue when he is president of the U.S.A.

    • Tom Welsh

      “Interesting to listen to Obama on the BBC today, as he stated that Britain would be a long way behind trade negotiations to that of the EU, if we left”.

      Well, that clinches the matter. Everyone MUST vote to Leave. Because

      1. British people do not knuckle under to foreign dictators (sorry, heads of state).

      2. We do not want (do we?) to have our Parliament replaced by a secret corporate star chamber that will make everything illegal that reduces profits and make everything compulsory that increases them.

    • Richard

      O’bomber can fuck off. Why anybody bothers to listen to that twat about domestic British affairs I don’t know. Are people so far gone that they enjoy being bullied?

  • RobG

    On the eve of the referendum the media are wringing everything they can out of the Jo Cox murder, with the Guardian reporting on the ‘More In Common rally’, in which “There is a tribute from the White Helmets, volunteer search and rescue workers in Syria.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-live-remain-leave-last-day-campaign?page=with:block-576ab015e4b0be24d34f5164#block-576ab015e4b0be24d34f5164

    Two minutes research from any of the Guardian hacks will tell them who the White Helmets really are.

    • Salford Lad

      Craig,
      You may be voting Remain because you love your Mum, but you must have forgotten your kids and grandkids
      They are the ones who will have to deal with the totalitarian anti- democratic nightmare that the EU is on the road to becoming.
      This is a once in a lifetime chance to escape,unlike our own democracy ,where we can vote out a Tory or Labour Govt ,if not to our liking every 5 years.

      • Martinned

        totalitarian anti- democratic nightmare

        Yes, because who needs vertical or horizontal separation of powers, or elections where people actually get elected in proportion to how much support they have among voters?

        • bevin

          The current proposal in Italy is to give all powers to the Lower Chamber in which the party winning the most votes in an election is automatically awarded a majority in the Chamber.
          This is in order to ensure stability to allow the government to push through legislation, even though a majority of voters have rejected it in principle.
          At least this was the proposal of the current government-an amalgam of Conservative and “left” (former Communist) parties-until 19 of the 20 mayoral elections were won by opposition candidates.
          In France the current government rules by Emergency decree.
          In Greece whether or not there is a government is moot.
          In Spain elections are pending, again.
          As to eastern Europe….the ghosts of Dolfuss, Horthy, Pilsudski and a generation of collaborators haunt their governments
          Britain may not be a trim little frigate but it is moored to some of the least seaworthy vessels and rotting hulks in the sea. And looking more like them every day.

          • Martinned

            See, this is what happens when English people stop learning foreign languages. It means that they end up getting all of their news from British newspapers and TV news reports, who have stopped caring about reporting anything resembling truth decades ago.

            Leaving all this misunderstanding about the governments and/or constitutions of other European countries to one side: you did notice that your comment was in response to a conversation about the democratic nature of the EU?

          • lysias

            Unfortunately, most of the continental European media outlets are just as bought off.

            I used to wonder why German newspapers and news magazines had so little real news and so little intellectual diversity until I read Udo Ulfkotte’s book.

          • Martinned

            The German press is endlessly better than its UK equivalent. And that’s before we get to the glorious debate programmes they have on TV late in the evening.

  • Mark Golding

    The EU always was an American project and the ‘special relationship’ and creates and generates there is no way the Establishment is going to allow Brexit to happen.

    How utterly mortifying to succumb to such tyranny and terrorism and how reticent and sick at heart are we to pass such prepotence to our children…

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Mark,

      Whilst Craig is obviously a good man of integrity and courage, I was not impressed with what he wrote today. However, it is his blog and he can write whatever he likes, and to be fair he not only allows completely opposite opinions, he even allows me to post here.

      Over the years, because I know what I can be like, I have even banned myself in obscure ways from my own PC that are next to impossible to unravel unless I am completely sober. I think I even told Clark how to ban me permanently. For about a year or so, I could only even read this blog, by going via a proxy, which I seriously do not like to do, because I know that people who use proxies are like a red flag to the security services. I have been retired for nearly 12 years – but my Son runs an ISP, still lives at home, and was far more technically brilliant than me, even when a young teenager.

      I know that at any moment, either The Police or The Security Services can come knocking on my door – because they have.

      They weren’t after me or my son, they just wanted technical assistance to investigate a serious fraud, that had happened to one of my son’s customers. He never tells me anything much about his business, and that is the way I like it – otherwise I wouldn’t be retired.

      Tony

      • Richard

        Yes, that’s one thing I appreciate about C.M. – he doesn’t remove contrary views to his own. That, of course, is how it should be. Opposing views are not pathologies or phobias despite the modern trend to render them as such.

  • Manda

    “After voting tomorrow I shall fly down to take part in an alternative online referendum results programme from the Ecuadorian Embassy with Julian Assange, to give you a chance to hear a discussion of the results without having to listen to yet more neo-liberal spokesmen spouting establishment propaganda.”

    Where will this be streamed please? Shall I keep an eye on WikiLeaks twitter?

  • S Jones

    But how about those of us who think that the Romanian ought to be able to earn £10 in his or her own country? And that decimating the economy of Romania is not exactly egalitarian?

    That going where the money is might be understandable but is not particularly noble? I.e Just like the British expats who would go to work in Germany?

    That the Romanian may be able to exist – at least temporarily- more cheaply than the native worker?

    That the USA maybe a wealthy country but many of its inhabitants lead a life in poverty?

    That high levels of immigration are incompatible with a strong welfare state – like the USA?

    That one shouldn’t have to leave ones own country to make a decent life for oneself?

    That the ‘free movement of people’ is the central tenant of neoliberal economics?

    Where would you draw the line, Mr Murray? For of course, every country has or had immigration policies. And in a world without them, the east could flood the west with labour, undercutting the wages of almost everybody, including yourself!

    • nevermind

      off course its has, Cameron had an extraordinary deal for his bit of petulance and previous fence sitting, its not up to anyone here to demand more, its a collective decision for the same unaccountable heads to agree.

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