It is time for straight talking. Philip Hammond stated the plain truth when he said that Scotland could not have a different relationship with the EU than the rest of the UK. It is true as a simple technical truth, as I explained. If the UK leaves the EU, the only way for Scotland to remain a member is Independence. Frankly anybody who understands the first thing about the subject knows that and it is actually helpful for Hammond to explain it. I have no doubt that May gave Sturgeon the same message today. By proclaiming commitment to Unionism in the first sentence of her first speech in Number 10, and then immediately coming to Edinburgh, May could not have made her position clearer. Further there is no doubt that Hammond would have cleared his unequivocal statement with May before he made it.
If I can forsake honesty and straightforwardness, and try to channel Machiavelli, I can make out a case for Nicola Sturgeon to initiate a time-consuming – and expensive – process of entering extensive consultations to try to find a way that Scotland can effectively remain in both the EU and the UK, even though I have no doubt whatsoever that Sturgeon, who is not stupid, knows as well as I do that this is an impossibility. That Machiavellian argument goes like this – “We know it is impossible for Scotland to continue EU membership still within the UK if the UK leaves, but we must be seen to have explored all avenues so that unionists will be persuaded that independence is the only option left.”
But here are four arguments against that:
1) Pitching independence as a very bad option, only to be taken if no others are available, is not a good sales technique
2) Wasting European politicians’ time asking for an impossible “part of UK” arrangement will erode the initial surge of sympathetic support for Scotland’s democratic desire to remain in the EU, which sympathy has been strongly felt in Europe
3) Sturgeon has appointed an “expert panel” to advise her with a massive establishment and neo-liberal bias and a unionist majority, containing just a single radical thinker, Alan Mille.
4) We are witnessing the final implosion of the British Empire with the Westminster bubble detested and politics in a state of flux. There could be no more auspicious time to launch a new push for Independence. This is not the time for temporising.
The appointment of such an establishment “expert panel” really does worry me. You can guarantee that this panel is not going to recommend that Scotland leaves the UK in order to obtain a continuing or expedited membership of the EU. Three are former FCO colleagues of mine. They happen to all be people I like, but I don’t dislike people for their politics. You could not get a more solid establishment man than Lord John Kerr. He is on the steering committee of the Bilderberg Group, for Christ’s sake. David Frost as CEO of the Scotch Whisky Association actively campaigned against independence. Mariot Leslie is sound and pro-Indy but not radical.
Bluntly the composition of this panel worries me that Nicola Sturgeon is seeking not to push forward for independence and does not want an Indyref2. Why else would you appoint a representative of the steering committee of Bilderberg to your expert panel, together with fistfuls of other uber-establishment figures? For me, it says a lot about Sturgeon that she has chosen to advise her a group of people almost all of whom are used to six figure incomes and whose average income is well over £200,000 p.a.
Stuart Campbell hit the nail – as so often – on the head when he suggested that actually Hammond’s position should be a gift which Sturgeon accepts. It is extremely helpful that Westminster states Scotland can only be a member of the EU if it leaves the UK. It is true, and it is a choice the Scottish people must be offered to sort out the two incompatible referendum results. In a choice between the EU and Tory Westminster – a far clearer choice than Indyref1 – I am confident how the vote will go. For Heaven’s sake, Nicola, quit messing around with your entirely voluntary association with the Bilderberg Group and go for the referendum.
A sharp minded fella commented this in my local newspaper, which I found rather amusing, and with Westminster in such deep debt I found it rather appropriate.
He suggest the English pound should be replaced by the “Brexit” which is made up of a 100 “Goves” (a two faced coin). Another new coin would be the “Boris worth 4 “Goves” because a “Boris” couldn’t quite be the full shilling. ?
The most pressing issue is what currency is going to replace sterling in Scotland.
And what will replace the deficit caused by the fall in oil revenue? Will the weaker pound generate more whisky sales?
It shows me how much you pay attention in here, I’ve already stated in prior comments, oil revenue doesn’t go to Scotland, the tax receipts go straight into Westminster’s coffers.
Oil revenue would be a bonus in an independent Scotland, of course during the 2014 indy ref Better Together almost claimed that oil in an independent Scotland would be a burden, but oil in the UK was a great asset.
One could equate Westminster logic to that in the movie The Mouse that Roared, Westminster will soon be the Duchy of Fenwick.
I see that C4 News have their Muslim reporter with the hijab presenting the news tonight. Nothing wrong with that, but I can’t recall her having presented the news before and so it will perhaps be seen as deliberately provocative in light of the day’s events.
C4 News does, of course, along with the rest of the channel, see itself as daringly “alternative”, which should be taken to mean nothing more than presenting an “edgy” angle on the prevailing left-liberal consensus.
The 28 pages are almost invisible save for places like WSJ and Fox News.
If I’m right, she wouldn’t be able to do that (hijjab) in France, quite rightly too!
My spellchecker doesn’t like that word either — hijjab — but, for how long?
Btw, do shariah courts still exist in the UK? In Londonistan?
People can contract to resolve issues in many ways not always admiral and not always enforceable. If people are coerced into any particular form of dispute resolution then that should be busted up. If they are free informed and consenting participants then let it be and that is so whether it is arbitration mediation shariah or poker.
Don’t go downhill with Newt.
Bring back duelling as well.
‘Bring back duelling as well.’
Didn’t you know? That’s why we drive on the left, unlike Europe. If you drive on the left, it leaves your sword hand free to cut and thrust at anybody coming the other way.
Not if your changing gear.
Try ‘you’re’. ‘Your’ consistent with this, is it a matter of education?
Obama spouting his words of wisdom in the wake of Nice. Normally gunz are to blame. But I don’t expect to hear of the need to reduce the capacity of Truck magazines or eliminating high-capacity kitchen knives from public access.
I am so very happy to see somebody with “a following” saying, basically, what I have been thinking and saying for some time now.
I have a sneaking suspicion that expat Scots might be inspired to return to an independent homeland — in spite of the weather!
How about inviting H.M.Queen Elizabeth to be Head of State of Scotland? Her Majesty and her family seem very happy in Scotland and I reckon it would be a good diplomatic move in many ways. It’s not unreasonable historically either.
“How about inviting H.M.Queen Elizabeth to be Head of State of Scotland? Her Majesty and her family seem very happy in Scotland and I reckon it would be a good diplomatic move in many ways. It’s not unreasonable historically either.”
What a good idea seeing as Britain has never had an English/Welsh monarch since Elizabeth I, and of course, she had nothing to do with Britain.
Dear Craig,
Has it occurred that having a, ‘a massive establishment and neo-liberal bias and a unionist majority,’ Panel aboard, will inform Nicola of what will be arraigned against Her and Scotland when we call for a Referendum?
Nicola knows where we are headed, a smart person informs themselves of likely obstacles along the way!
‘Nicola knows where we are headed, a smart person informs themselves of likely obstacles along the way!’
Isn’t that contradicting yourself? Sturgeon is running round like a headless chicken, here in the real world.
Yes Nicola is a smart cookie, even the mainstream media are admitting she’s a top politician.
Top politician? How about this?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/689938/Nice-terror-attack-Theresa-May-Scotland-Nicola-Sturgeon-COBRA-new-Prime-Minister
“May ducks urgent COBRA terror meeting for chat with ‘deluded’ Sturgeon”
The mainstream media are saying “Deluded”.
Absolutely agree. At the very least the ‘expert panel’ should contain constitutional lawyers to help get Scotland out of the grip of Westminster. Take Hammond at his word and start preparing for another referendum AT ONCE! May says Article 50 will only be triggered when there is a UK-wide approach – which by my reckoning is another invitation for Scotland to get out.
I’m sure Nicola is aware of these points, and I hope that getting agreement that Scotland will be involved and consulted about the process of Brexit does not mean that there will be a cave-in. Don’t let them play for time, Nicola!
start preparing for another referendum AT ONCE
Yes? Go on do it! (snigger)
To some extent the ball is in Theresa’s court, if she wants us to go for an early Indy Ref, then all they have to do is repeat Hammond’s “Scotland could not have a different relationship with the EU than the rest of the U.K.”. If Theresa wants Indy Ref put back then, just play Nicola along, with I’m listenning, and the yes the Scots can take part in the negotiations.
There could be no more auspicious time to launch a new push for Independence. Exactly the time is now and auspiciously it is you, yourself Craig, that must use the power of intention to beget Scotland’s independence with a second referendum.
Craig , perhaps May listened to Nicola, maybe she didn’t repeat Hammond’s warning. Which gives The Scottish Government the reason to go for Indy Ref2. At any time of their choosing. Why do that …… When all May has to do is listen and let the Nats in on the negotiations…… Then still bat down their demands to remain in the EU down years from now……. When the small window of opportunity to go for Indy Ref2 and become independent before England leaves, allowing Scotland to stay within the E U has long gone….
Channelling Machiavell – ad interim and obscurely Bilderberg Group – forgive me – this has just come in from a reliable source:
This part of the Select Committee Intelligence Report is ersatz and was concocted according to anonymous UK sources by the Israeli Kidon to make a link with Al-Qaeda and a plausible connection to Iraq and Saddam Hussein. The authors made the mistake of citing the Holy Land Foundation which provided the first key.
http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/declasspart4.pdf
I doubt if Scotland will get a referendum for another 40 years, let alone any time soon. The answer for Tories is too easy – they had one, and it was decisively in favour to remain part of the Union.
After all, if the Tories will honour a vote in favour of BREXIT, why would they offer another referendum for Scotland, which was carried by a much bigger margin?
In addition, what leverage do the Scottish have against the Tories – they’ll return fewer Scottish Tory MPs otherwise? If Labour get back in, would they want to wipe out any Scottish MPs they had, by inviting them all to go away with another referendum? There’s nothing in it to gain for either party.
Same criticism as applied to bevin, closet unionists, footsoldiers of empire, lost left of somewhere. Democracy be damned.
Define ‘get’ Glenn, Scotland can have a referendum on anything it bloody well likes on any subject it likes, without any other country having any say in the matter whatsoever.
And “Don’t go, we’ll be so fucked” is rather the point we’ve been making all along, that we’ve been propping the friggin thing up for decades to keep rUK’s lower middle-classes quiescent and the rich having the cream, and the rest and hitting us with the broken empty bottle, afterwards.
But we’re not being dragged along for the final descent into hell end-game.
Sorry, Tony – I’m not arguing a point, just stating facts. And one fact is that Scotland (contrary to your assertion) most definitely can _not_ “have a referendum on anything it bloody well likes on any subject it likes” etc. etc., which is precisely why some pro-independence types go bleating and pleading and stamping their foot at the UK government all the time, instead of simply getting on with it.
But I wouldn’t want to confuse you with facts, so please carry on.
If we as a country no longer recognise Britain’s sovereignty over us, and we don’t take no for answer, do you really think Westminster would send troops or something to impose rule. As crazy as they seem to be getting in there, I highly doubt they’d want a civil war dragging the whole Union down. Surely a swift breakup between Britain and Scotland is best for all parties?
It would be best IF that’s what a decided majority of Scots want. The referendum indicated otherwise. What are we supposed to do, continually have referendums until the favoured result is produced, and that should then stand for all time?
Your criticism of me is unclear. I have no objection to Scottish Independence. I am all for it. The closer that power is to the people the better pleased I am.
For anyone to think, however, that Scotland will be sovereign in the EU or the US Empire is in my view mistaken.
Independence ought to mean just that but it is up to the Scots to decide.
Or perhaps you disagree with my view that the idea that Scotland will not thrive as a capitalist economy, within the EU and under the umbrella of the TTIP and other “agreements” (with none of which it will have been involved in negotiating) ?
The closet Unionists here are the ones who want to swap Washington, Brussels and Wall St for the current objectionable arrangements. The foot soldiers of the Empire will be quite happy hiring out jocks to Uncle Sam and remaining in NATO.
The particular criticism contained some faint praise too, it was made was made on the previous page, I’ll try find the link, this new layout is chronic, and themods may have eaten it. Glenn above sounded like an echo of it, he might be having staff problems with his butler.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/time-nicola-pick-fight/comment-page-1/#comment-612409
We’ve given the one ‘union’ 300 years and have been largely pissed upon throughout, our population has declined, when all over the world for most of that period, populations have grown exponentially. We’ll see how the relationship with the other EU member countries goes, as equals, on a cautious and reversible trial, subject along the way to continued voter consent. We’ve built and work on still, a new democracy out of the ashes of bones left by London incompetent and malign misrule, whilst you have been grasping at wisps and ghosts of Labour past and buried. I don’t believe the EU fulfills any aspirations of the ordinary people, or adds anything that wasn’t substantially there or possible beforehand. Its origins are murky, its purpose and scope, its direction ill-defined. I voted to Leave (the EU) conscientiously, as many did. I’m still genuinely ambivalent on the EU but determined the Scottish nation and people can make a go of it, as a member country for the first time rather than just as an adjunct to England.
I would certainly support a Scotland only referendum on continued association with the redundant and terrifying mutual-suicide pact that is NATO, favouring unwaveringly to get out of it, though whether it can creak along much longer is debatable, it seems to be expiring.
Things have changed there’s no return, I was accused of being behind the times here by being a news bulletin behind ‘the latest’ -and somehow missed the invisible imperceptible and still not evident anywhere revolution that apparently took place, like everywhere, but you and Glenn’s wailing lament for a comfortable predictable long gone fifties Britain of deferential proles in cloth caps, headscarves, singing in the rain, waiting in the fog for the next Labour party great hope, of all the unlikely things is just too much to bear. Jeremy Corbyn is more good than bad, after a brace who were all bad through and through, but he cannot move mountains. I wish him well but he doesn’t need Scottish votes or seats to succeed, Labour never has, Labour Westminster governments formed have always done so through a majority of seats in England, he has has one MP in Scotland, and he’s a hostile bilious red Tory, as do the Tories, have just one MP.
We’re different countries see. Your Britain of hanging on treading water, dying, in quiet desperation,waiting against odds and experience for change that is always just around the next corner of a maze, is the most unappealing alternative to Independence imaginable. Anything but that.
Beautifully worded. ?
Some acknowledgement then to Pink Floyd is necessary for some bits of the last paragraph.
It wasn’t personal bevin, you’ve made some smashing posts here, many a delight to read, learn from, absorb chuckle at and agree with wholeheartedly. Scotland’s independence is a bell-weather issue, look around at your unsavoury new fellow-travellers.
It may be that Nicola will truncate this ‘unique position for Scotland’ routine and in ‘exasperation’ go for a quick Referendum or at least begin making noises along the lines of: ‘We in Scotland have a simple choice ahead of us. Independence in Europe or stay within the UK Union under the Tories.’
She would then strike an ‘ASK THE PEOPLE’ pose where meetings will take place throughout Scotland accompanied by the rising, feverish excitement of Indy1 all of which should be reflected in the Polls. At which point she fires the starting gun – unleashing a short YES Campaign followed by the Referendum.
The only note of caution should be the mood of the people. We CANNOT lose this. Personally I think she’s playing a blinder, no doubt with the backing and support of Alex and co, not to mention advice from her senior SNP/YES colleagues which will hopefully include you Craig..
Attempted coup in Turkey being reported.
Nothing to see there. Move along folks. SCOTLAND !
I should think global context is on topic, but…..
There’s one coming in France as well.
You’ll read all about it tomorrow in your favourite CIA controlled rag, etc, etc.
Yes, watch out, France – Turkey’s problems began with false-flag terrorists attacks too.
Fortunately the CIA let us in Britain have a nice peaceful coup a couple of weeks ago – just a bit of tidying up of the Labour Party still to be done, though.
“Attempted coup in Turkey being reported” (21.14)
The following article, which said American neocons appeared to be urging the Turkish military to seize power, was published in March this year:
Turkey: Is a military coup possible?
http://www.defenddemocracy.press/turkey-military-coup-possible/
A coup is not just possible. It’s traditional. The main obstacle to date has probably been Erdogan’s removal of any of the top brass showing signs of independent thought a couple of years ago. But this one seems to have originated lower down the chain, and I have hopes it will succeed. Why? It’s not just the Yanks who might like a stable secular state next to the clusterfuck they’ve created. It’s everyone except IS. Erdogan’s power rests on the perception of a popular mandate. The Turkish army’s potential rests in its enormous size and the fact that the Islamist-friendly top brass aren’t the ones who do the fighting.
İyi şanslar!
Just came across this, which says much the same thing, but from a presumably better-informed standpoint:
4:59 P.M.: Reports are swirling that a military coup is taking place in Turkey. From Jim Geraghty’s post:
There are reports that a military coup is underway in Turkey: Military vehicles are in the streets, the bridges of Istanbul are shut down, and state television just stopped broadcasting.
If you’re concerned about the Islamist drift in Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his allies, a military takeover looks pretty appealing right now! Military coups are almost regularly scheduled in Turkey; the country had coups in 1960, 1971, 1980, and a near-coup in 1997. It’s a regular habit in Turkish politics; an elected leader accumulates too much power and drifts away from the secular, statist, Western-oriented philosophies and traditions of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and the military intervenes. His final remarks to the Turkish military gave them the duty of protecting the country from enemies foreign and domestic (I’m paraphrasing) and the Turkish military has not hesitated to include elected politicians among those enemies. Quite a few times in the past decade, foreign correspondents and Turkey-watchers have wondered if a coup was imminent. It wasn’t . . . until, perhaps, tonight.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/437951/turkey-military-coup-reported
FANTASTIC NEWS
the evil cunt is removed.
This is a British Revolt. UK 1 Rest of the World 0. Get used to it you slow people we cant stand the slimey cunts any more. Are you Scottish on our side or what? Tony
Leave 1 – Remain didn’t.
Have Russia & US found common ground?
On the Eve of Killary or Trumpet…. I suggest Putin is not stupid and knows his best advantage is before Obama leaves office.
What do you make of our new Foreign Secretary’s description of Clinton?
“She’s got dyed blonde hair and pouty lips, and a steely blue stare, like a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital”
Rather fitting I thought.
Yes, good one Anon. Just a little, or a whole lot, worse in terms of breadth of outcome.
Habba on moderating duty tonight ?
Severe cutting going on.
ROFL
The coup plotters stressed that all international relations would remain unchanged.
They presumably meant that the rapprochement with Russia and Turkey would not go ahead.
Kerry in response stressed the necessity for continuity.
And presumably he meant that too.
Peas in a pod these plotters.
But if they lose this, it does make the US look very very very weak indeed.
To add to many recent signs of weakness in getting their way.
Has to be good for the world.
Russia and Syria, of course.
I may be barking up wrong tree but wonder how events in Turkey are going down in Saudi?
Here’s how the Guardian are reporting the coup in Turkey…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara
I’ve really no idea what’s going on with this one, except to say that it seems directly connected to the latest false flag nonsense that took place in France yesterday, and the ramping-up of the war with Syria…
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/France-to-Escalate-Strikes-in-Syria-and-Iraq-After-Nice-Attack-20160714-0030.html
I would guess that some sane people are finally standing up to the batshit crazies in Washington, who want war with Russia.
‘I would guess that some sane people are finally standing up to the batshit crazies in Washington, who want war with Russia.’
Think the batshit crazies aren’t ready?
http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160716/1043080012/us-ready-protect-incirlik-base.html
The US Air Force is aware of the coup in Turkey and will take appropriate force protection measures to ensure the safety of the active duty personnel at Incirlik air base, a US Air Force spokesperson told Sputnik on Friday.
U.S. has nukes at Incirlik.
Hadn’t you heard Putin and Erdogan were getting all chummy again
http://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/2016/06/29/erdogan-putin-agree-to-meet-in-person-in-first-phone-call-after-jet-crisis
That could well have been a trigger. Apologising for the army doing what you had told the army to do – shooting down the Russian fighter – would have been a distinct possibility too far. But the planning seems so far to have been fairly sound, and would have taken time and extreme secrecy. Not something you would depend on the Yanks for.
Erdogan getting his. About time.
Are you Blairites watching, that’s how to do a coup.
I don’t think Blair would attract much support from the forces. Unless it was a rope attached to a lamp post.
Lol Ba’al, but the reading of Chilcot seems to say our military (army really) were salivating at the thought of getting to play with the big boys in Iraq. Champing at the bit..
I wasn’t being serious, just a nod to the chicken coup.
But… I’ve often wondered who our boys would support if it came down to it here. They swear loyalty to Liz, same as all the powers and offices of state, but would they fire on the British people at the behest of the government ?
My guess is the Sandringham brainwashed lot would obey in most circumstances, but I’d like to think the rank and file would always think twice. Let’s hope we never find out.
That’s an interesting question, and worthy of further discussion. But I don’t think a rank-and-file coup as such would be on the cards – although a Russian or 1918 German-style mutiny would have short term impact . Ideally it would come from active-service colonel rank and below. Significantly, the Turkish activity doesn’t have a figurehead, unless it is the shade of Kemal. The leader emerges from the takeover, or as in Greece, there may be a committee of colonels.
Don’t be so cynical.
They called it The Peace Committee.
Anyway.
Reports do indicate that they’re retreating and the peeps are mobilising against it.
Half the army’s against it.
Could all be bullshit of course. Hard to know how the forces are ranged in fast moving events such as this.
News outlets have been taken over etc.
I only recently learned about the 1918 mutiny. That’s the kind of thing that makes you feel there’s hope for humanity yet.
Hypothetical.
Conditions for the lower orders decay to such an extent that there is mass civil disobedience on a regular, and escalating basis.
Plod is told to go in heavy handed ala miners strike.
The plebs react by organising, and fighting back to such an extent that plod can’t cope and the government declares martial law.
The peeps don’t back down, and they grow in numbers. Maybe even the middling lot join in.
Once again, the government goes ott to assert, and protect the power of the establishment and organises that examples are made.
What does your British army squaddie do ?
n.b The Paras of bloody Sunday might not be a good form guide here. imho
PS
I was really thinking of the rank-and-file view of Blair post-Iraq. Underequipped, told to police the unpoliceable aftermath, and involved in a world-class debacle. Relatives of the dead having to contemplate civil actions against Blair because there is no official redress. The majority OR view of Blair is, essentially, mine, although with up-close personal experience to back it.
Yanks have pulled the plug on Erdoğan, he was busy changing positions on Syria.
The military chief is being held as a hostage/detainee
This could end up nasty.
If Erdogan hasn’t fled the country already, he may soon face the fate of Menderes.
He has come on the TV and asked people to go out there and protest against the armed “insurgents”, the situation is really fluid, and it is as yet too febrile to see Erdogan taking flight.
If the Turkish coup only succeeds partially, we may soon see the equivalent of the Spanish Civil War.
True
Erdoğan & Co were up to their neck in it, including the oil trade with ISIS (you know, the ISIS that were created by the west).
It’s like living in a lunatic asylum.
Rob his prime minister Yildrim yesterday was talking about normalising relations with Syrian government ie Assad.
There is a lot more going on here, than meets the eye.
the recent, previous prime minister “resigned”
This attempted coup in Turkey could probably not have occurred without U.S. support. If it has U.S. support, it has excellent chances of succeeding.
Nah. This was bound to happen, and it’s a bit early to claim the credit, too. What support do you think the US was giving, anyway? It hasn’t been too considerate in pushing Syrian refugees across the border and arming the Kurds, has it?
What support? The kind of support it has given to previous coups, like in Chile in 1973 and in Iraq in 1963. Arranging meetings between those who would mount the coup, and giving them assurances that they would have U.S. support.
You know your onions Lysias, agreed.
Kerry certainly didn’t condemn the coup.
But anyway, at this time Daily Sabah is reporting it’s failing.
Came just a day after Turkey’s rapprochement with Syria.
The US certainly wouldn’t have supported that.
Should a US supported coup fail in Turkey then it makes them look very very weak now on the world stage.
Daily Sabah was taken over by the AKP people months ago. They fired the previous management.
Which was Gulen.
Are you suggesting Daily Sabah is just doing a Comical Ally?
If the coup was supported by the U.S., as I suspect, and if the coup fails, then yes, that will show the U.S. has become very weak in the area. It will also, I think, be very bad for Turkey.
Why bad for Turkey?
So where’s the support? This looks completely indigenous, and it follows a well-established Turkish political path. Add to that that this endangers the recent rapprochement between Turkey and Israel – down to Erdogan – and I continue to question your conclusion. Still, we’ll see. One possible outcome, given a strongly patriotic Kemalist government, would logically be to demand the removal of US facilities at Incirlik and Izmir, mightn’t it? Be careful what you wish for, I’d say. Still and all, Erdogan has turned from a moderately democratic and occasionally inspired leader into an autocratic POS, and it was time he went. If the evil US was involved, fair play to it. But you’ll never prove it.
I have spent time at the U.S. military facilities in Izmir. I have visited Adana, but never the nearby air base at Incirlik.
I love the Turks, and I hope they can recover constitutional rule. I initially supported the efforts of Erdogan and the AKP to remove the Turkish military’s veto power over government in Turkey, but Erdogan and the AKP have grievously abused the trust of me and many other people.
The founder of the Gulen movement has been living in the US The coup is attributed to a faction of the army that is affiliated to Hizmet the group that Gulen has set up.
Whatever fete occurres to Erdogan, it will be too subtle
But the gun fire in the streets is not indicative of success, try and catch some of the live feed the snarl of the heavy machine guns is not a measure of success. Although the roar of the fighters over the capital is a nice coercive touch but not very effective.
The roar of airplanes was what broke leftist resistance to the coup in Chile in 1973.
politics has been in overdrive for the last year.
Yeah but those days people were not as savvy as these days. it is the dead of night too, so not very impressive. Although Helicopter gunships could wreak havoc but wait and see
I disagree with you there, Lysias.
It’s no coincidence that the coup in Turkey has occurred a day after the latest false flag nonsense in France (which the Americans were behind), a false flag that was designed to ramp-up the war in Syria.
When it comes to these idiotic/criminal wars in the Middle East, Turkey has taken the brunt of it, both with regard to the huge number of refugees it’s had to absorb, and bending over to take it from the good ole US of A.
I’m just waiting for someone to blame Corbyn for the coup in Turkey.
Ha!
I don’t think Turkey has been bending over backwards to remove ISIS?
The fact that Yildrim was talking about normalisation of the relationship with Syria is enough to make al saud pederasts to go ape shit crazy, and start ringing alarm bells all over the place. ISIS is an al saud creature and they are heavily reliant on Turkey to feed their hand picked bunch of mercenary rapists and murderers.
But don’t worry, Boris Johnson is now foreign secretary, and after some jolly japes he’ll sort it all out, and then go orf for a game of rugger and some buggery.
And Lords a leaping
Remember this phrase:
our Islamaphobic P.M. Therasa May
FRENCH government ‘suppressed gruesome torture’ of Bataclan victims as official inquiry is told some were castrated and had their eyes gouged out by the ISIS killers
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3692359/French-government-suppressed-gruesome-torture-Bataclan-victims-official-inquiry-told-castrated-eyes-gouged-ISIS-killers.html#ixzz4EWFQ27xu
How much Islamic terror do you lot need before the scales fall from your blinkered eyes?
How much western terror do you need before the scales fall from your blinkered eyes?
How much Western Terror are u getting in FRANCE?
How much Islamic terror are u getting in France?
Don’t believe everything you read in the newspapers, even the Daily Mail. Didn’t you notice that the prosecutors in charge of the inquiry were sceptical of the claims?
One “investigator” reported what his colleague had seen, and the president of a government committee reported what a father had been told.
Why can’t witnesses speak to the inquiry for themselves?
The gruesome over egging of the violence in the article/inquiry* seems to be in line with the Hollywood tradition of making action movies. The notion of the “OCD with cleanliness” Muslims touching and grabbing to pull the testicles or cut the testicles of their captives is only for the consumption of the western audiences. Gouging eyes out is a practice of the common criminals in UK, and probably in France too, but it happens during fights and struggles in the absence of any fire arms or knives. But the attackers evidently were armed to the teeth, then why should they have been involved in any hand to hand fights?
I agree with your assessment of the “authors” of the farticle and their intent in whipping up hatred and hysteria against their favoured enemies.
*If there were such an inquiry
It only trips when you sock-puppet to make hysterical and bizarre slanderous attacks on Tommy Sheridan.
@Tony M
Here is the bastard Tommy Sheridan denouncing the poll tax rioters, in his own words:
click
We will never forget.
And as I said, the bastard repeated his hatred for the rioters in a subsequent book.
You may like to find out about his hero Leon Trotsky’s imposition of fascism in Russian industry (his book Terrorism and Communism if you want it how he himself put it), and that’s before we even get to Kronstadt.
And Tony M, you like to throw epithets, but “hysterical” doesn’t mean “well-informed and accurate”, and as for slander, it’s spoken not written.
I was there in London on that March, you spend too much time fulminating and whatever else in front of your TV.
FRENCH government ‘suppressed gruesome torture’ of Bataclan victims as official inquiry is told some were castrated and had their eyes gouged out by the ISIS killers
I bet they threw babies out of incubators too.
sorry for O/T ing here. A NATO country is under military siege/ refurbishment.
Military coup in Turkey, all balls are in the air and Erd do gone is gone. He made too many mistakes during the last six month, too many unexplained events, death of Kurds and a clamp down on any opposition.
‘For reason of ‘excessive Autocracy, and terrorist incidents.’ the military plotters say But Erdo gone is not gone yet, he’s safe somewhere and the military is split, he retains much support.
he’s made peace with Israel over the Mavi Marmara murders in international waters, apparently large sums have healed wounds and he has smoothed corners with Russia during the last two weeks, not that it would please the chicken-hawks hell bent on rancour.
Re Nice. Anon has been waiting with baited breath. Is this another case of a mentally challenged character who was influenced, but not associated with IS?
Did anyone see the interview with his father who said that he was under prescribed medication for it, without it, he said, he would get into a rage and smash up everything around him. He did have a criminal record for just that, and petty theft.
Or is it a bit of both, some hidden guidance to encourage such an attack, did he run out of pills? Anon will tell us, he always knows best, as long as he keeps taking his blue pills.
Bastille day, the day the poor hung the toffs and privileged, a day that French socialism was born in anger,imho, With all the Union disputes going on in France and a boisterous electorate to tame, many man hours lost, just when France lost so gallantly to Portugal and its under performance has again been ignored by the ECB,, what can galvanise France more on Bastille day than a terror attack. But was it? Lets wait and see
Marie le Pen is laughing all the way to the polls,
Is this military coup lead? who has an interest in keeping tensions high in Turkey/Syria? Will this coup shut down IS arms supplies to Syria?
Erdogan went too far in overturning constitutional rule in Turkey, in particular by removing parliamentary immunity for the deputies of the Kurdish party, and by prosecuting journalists of the establishment press, most notably including the historically important chief Kemalist newspaper, Cumhuriyet, just for reporting the truth.
Is this military coup lead? who has an interest in keeping tensions high in Turkey/Syria? Will this coup shut down IS arms supplies to Syria?
Erdogan is telling the coup is by a bunch of “Extremist Islamists” this could mean a more direct involvement of the Turkish military in the Syrian theatre. Also judging by the number of shots getting fired, and the hoards of people trying to take cover, this is not a done deal and is not the ala Egypt military coup. There is little data about the coup plotters, and we need to wait and see?
The French driver is the sign of times, as in the case of hysteria that aided the introduction of the Nuremberg Laws, already Express is floating about taking away the citizenships of the “immigrants”, of course our vile resident racists are assuring us that no one wants the neo Nuremberg Laws, that is despite their attempts in publishing the protocols of the elders of Muslims that includes advice on welding “butcher’s knives” onto vehicles!!!! this is more elaborated upon by explaining that so far “55000” Muslims have downloaded these protocols of the elders of the Muslims.
Whilst you wait for Chilcot…http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/07/15/read-declassified-files-from-911-inquiry.html
Very interesting…
One way of thwarting the Gülen Movement – The Turkey Supreme Military Council meeting was approaching:
http://www.dailysabah.com/investigations/2016/07/15/turkish-military-investigates-suspected-gulenist-personnel
No, Mark. What started it was this:
https://www.vg247.com/2016/07/15/turkeys-union-of-imams-calls-for-pokemon-go-ban-in-the-country/
On form Ba’al pffft (sound of suppressed laughter).
I think it’s broader issue. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/11/new-turkey-military-problem.html
Unsustainable power sharing occurs when there is no sharing.
“If the UK leaves the EU, the only way for Scotland to remain a member is Independence. Frankly anybody who understands the first thing about the subject knows that and it is actually helpful for Hammond to explain it.”
I’m always wary when people back up sentences like the first with sentences like the second.
There is no way that Scotland can remain a member, because it is not a member now, so the argument is built on a false premise. The only way Scotland can become a member is as an independent state, but that is obvious.
It would certainly be possible for it to have most of the benefits of membership without being independent. Imagine the UK becomes the ~UK, and England and Wales get “home rule” as the UK. So the UK and Scotland are separate constituent parts of the ~UK. (Let’s leave NI out of this.) Now make the ~UK correspond to the “Danish Realm”, Scotland to Denmark, and the UK to Greenland. The sovereign state is not Denmark; it is the Danish Realm, which consists of Denmark, Greenland and the Faroes. Denmark has the benefits of EU membership; Greenland doesn’t.
If the will is there, some “constitutional” “experts” could doubtless be got hold of who didn’t picture themselves as moustachioed idiots visiting Queen Victoria at Osborne House and prattling on about the “magic” of monarchy.
In any case, the SNP love of the EU is utterly specious and two-faced and an insult to the Scottish people’s intelligence. Scotland does 65% of its external trade with rUK and 15% with rEU. Membership of the British union is a far more important question for Scotland than membership of the EU, and it won’t hold to argue for a position on the relatively more important question on the basis of a position on the relatively minor one.
This is all if anyone could really be bothered. Personally I strongly hope Britain remains a member of the EU. But if it is to leave then who could blame Whitehall if they tell Nicola Sturgeon as follows?
1) The Scottish people have expressed their view on the independence question in a recent referendum and as the head of the Scottish government inside the sovereign state of Britain she must accept the position. What the SNP promotes using its private resources is another matter, but as a British official she has no right to conduct talks with foreign powers except under the authority of the Foreign Office.
2) If Brexit it is to be, then she is very welcome to propose a way that the Scottish part of Britain can keep many of the benefits that it currently derives from British membership of the EU and to attend and participate in British-EU discussions, under Whitehall leadership and authority which she must not attempt to subvert. Although the Scottish parliament does not hold a veto over Brexit, the British government does not intend to go behind the spirit of the Sewel convention as enacted in s2 of the Scotland Act 2016.
I think Theresa May should order George o
Osborne to go North and give Nicola Sturgeon a punishment beating,
I expect Nicola would enjoy that.
Well I’ve told it like it is.
Sturgeon can’t negotiate with foreign powers without Foreign Office permissions. She is a British official. End of chat. Some Scottish nationalists are the biggest fantasisers out.
Where WAS Theresa?
May ducks urgent COBRA terror meeting for “chat” with DELUDED Sturgeon
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/689938/Nice-terror-attack-Theresa-May-Scotland-Nicola-Sturgeon-COBRA-new-Prime-Minister
Nicola does seem deluded.
she is like a person demented, no grounding in reality.
A bit like Erdogan.
RMT union members working for ScotRail have started another two days of strike action.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36810788
Nicola should spend her time sorting out Scotland, not deluding herself about glory in the sunny Uplands of being part of the European Empire.
michael norton on July 15, 2016 at 23:56 asked:
How much Western Terror are u getting in FRANCE?
How about we begin with THIRTY YEARS of the Vietnam War? You do remember the Vietnam War, started by France and taken over by the Land of the Free?
Or perhaps you don’t?
Well, I was still at school then but i have some memory of Battle of Dien Bien Phu
And your non-relevent point is?
At this time, Islamic terror is engulfing France.
France is not being hit by terror coming from Christians / Jews / Sikhs / Buddhists
‘And your non-relevent point is?’
France taught Ho Chi Minh everything he knew, don’t you know?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh
Actually, as France released 30 years of Hell on the Vietnamese people, what right do they have but to expect the same in return? And let’s face it, we owe France nothing.
Vietnam was a long horror, I do not know, maybe the French were initially responsible but as we know the Americans were keen to control the situation, in which they failed.
However most Vietnamese people are not Muslim.
So, what happened in Vietnam half a century ago,
does not to me seem relevant to the last few years of Islamic horror in France.
MİT, the Turkish intelligence agency, has apparently just announced that the coup attempt has been defeated. Turkey may well be on the way to a full-fledged dictatorship.
UK will cease to exist within a decade… say 53% of Brits
https://www.rt.com/uk/351301-break-up-united-kingdom/
Britain will cease to be a United Kingdom within ten years according to 53 percent of Britons polled in a joint BBC/ComRes study.
The belief is based on growing pressure from nationalist groups like the Scottish National Party (SNP) to stay in Europe, indicating that if the UK really does leave the EU, a process may begin that will see the constituent nations split from a no longer United Kingdom.
The poll, released on Friday, also found that 72 percent of the 1,000 people polled believe politicians will handle Brexit badly.
British politicians handle everything badly IMHO
All of my life experience leads me to trust the words of Craig Murray. If Nicola is thinking the same way I hope that IndyRef 2 does not occur before September 2017.