Options for Independence 1387

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So what do we do now with Theresa May apparently obdurate on blocking the referendum?

It is important to realise politics are fluid. In a week’s time the situation will not be what it is today. The battle for public opinion is key. The unionist media (ie virtually all of it) are asserting continuously, as a uniform line, that opinion polls say the people of Scotland do not want a second Independence referendum in the timescale Nicola Sturgeon has set out – even though that is not true at all. The serial Tory crooks at You Gove came out with an opinion poll right on cue “showing” that support for Independence is hitting new lows. But I suspect it will not be long before evidence emerges that May’s unattractive diktat has profoundly assisted the Independence cause. That will change the game.

So with a wind of public opinion behind her, what does Sturgeon do if Westminster denies a Scottish Parliament request for a referendum? There are several options:

1) Hold an Advisory Referendum

It appears probable (though not undisputed) that the Scottish government can hold a referendum which is not binding, without Section 30 permission from Westminster. It is hard for Westminster to dismiss the result of an advisory referendum, given that Brexit was only an advisory referendum and May has taken as a matter of faith that it is binding.

But as we saw in Catalonia, a boycott by unionist forces can be quite effective in denying the credibility of a non-binding referendum result. I strongly suspect that would be their attitude to an advisory referendum, and I do not see it as a strong way forward.

2) Call a New Holyrood Election

This is an attractive option in many ways. It would be predicated on the plain statement that a new pro-Independence majority would declare Independence unilaterally. That would be the normal and internationally accepted way for a country to secede – a referendum is very much the exception.

But there are problems with this approach. The first is that it would require a two thirds majority of the Scottish parliament to dissolve it, and the Unionists would in all probability simply block it. Forcing them to do that may be a good move, but doesn’t take us far forward.

The second problem, should parliament dissolve, is the campaign itself. As it would not be a referendum campaign, media coverage would not be balanced on independence, but the unionist parties in effect given three times the coverage of the SNP, assuming the Greens continue to be very poorly treated. But as the “Balance” of the referendum coverage was risible anyway, I am not sure this is so much of a drawback.

More difficult is the uncertainty created by the appalling De Hondt system. There is no doubt that the optimum outcome for Independence would be for every Independence supporter to vote SNP 1 and Green 2. But in practice that will never happen on a significant scale, and what is the best way to utilise your vote to achieve independence is simply not predictable. Risking all on a system so prone to statistical fluke is a problem.

3) Call a National Assembly

In the event that Scotland is being blocked from holding either a referendum or an election, the Scottish Government could move to convene a National Assembly. This might consist of all MPs, MSPs and MEPs and that body could declare Independence. To be clear, that would be a revolutionary act in UK terms, but it is perfectly normal for such an act to be required at the birth of a new state and is no bar to it being accepted in international law as a state through recognition by the United Nations General Assembly.

The argument would run that, having been blocked at every turn from holding a democratic vote either by way of referendum or parliamentary election, the Scottish government had taken the option of convening all representatives democratically elected at the national level – MSPs, MPs and MEPs, and these elected representatives of the Scottish people had made the decision. That is perfectly respectable and entirely analogous to the way many EU members such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Croatia, the Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent.

To return to my original argument, the possibilities depend very much on how public opinion is seen to be trending. May’s calculation appears to be driven firstly by a desire to play to her Brexiteer base in England – which judging by the rabid comments pages across the media is very successful – and secondly by a desire to further polarise Scottish politics to the benefit of the Scottish Tories. She is more than happy for Independence to be decided on a straight SNP vs Tory field. That May thinks she can win such a battle is an example of staggering hubris.

I have been saying in all of my speeches across Scotland in the last year that the game has changed and we have to be prepared for the idea we may have to achieve Independence without the consent or cooperation of the Westminster government. I am happily no longer a radical outlier in this belief.

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1,387 thoughts on “Options for Independence”

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  • Habbabkuk

    The tree of Scottish independence will not flourish.

    Too many sickly *branches* and too few solid roots.

      • Habbabkuk

        Not too much whisky, just too much guff from new(?) poster “branches”.

        This is just the right blog for him. Another one to be noted.

        • Alcyone

          More poetry Habby; what’s come over you? If it’s not the whisky, what’s her name?

    • Kerch'ee Kerch'ee Coup

      What a happy day you’ve had att he blogface.”Eats,roots,branches,and leaves.” An Oxford comma for an Oxford scholar.

      • Habbabkuk

        Kerchee

        Have you noticed that to say your handle quickly is to sound as if one’s vomiting?

        • Kerch'ee Kerch'ee Coup

          Actually it’s from a Punch cartoon about an earlier Crimean crisis. Is yours from the similarly named character Habbakkuk in ‘John Bull’ who brings the honest Calvinist Jack to a sad end through too much rope?

        • Iain Stewart

          Habbabkuk, have you noticed that you sound like an old man coughing and spitting? 🙂
          And your recent spate of Jock-baiting is becoming as tedious as Michael Whatsisname’s embarrassing dribble. Is Scottish dependence or the lack of it really any of your business?

          • Habbabkuk

            “Habbabkuk, have you noticed that you sound like an old man coughing and spitting? ?”
            _____________________–

            Yes. Please help!

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            “And your recent spate of Jock-baiting is becoming as tedious as, etc, etc ”

            _______________________

            Independentist-baiting not Jock-baiting if you read carefully.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            ” Is Scottish dependence or the lack of it really any of your business?”

            ___________________________

            As much or as little as what goes on in Israel/Palestine (for example) is the business of many of the Eminences on this blog.

            Hope that helps, Scottie. Feel free to beam up (and out).

      • lysias

        Thomas Jefferson: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” (about Shays’ rebellion in Massachusetts.)

        • Habbabkuk

          Thank you for giving us Jefferson’s opinion. Do you have one you’d care to share?

          No, thought not ! 🙂

  • Ben

    All UK Trumpets take note…

    You think war with Russia would have been bad, try China/NK…lol.

  • Sharp Ears

    Very well said Nicola.

    I wish we had a prime minister as highly emotionally charged, as principled and as internationalist. Nicola knocks Theresa into a cocked hat on all policies.

  • michael norton

    The Paris Airport Attack comes at a delicate time – French Presidential Elections are almost in play
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39314250

    The soldiers were part of Operation Sentinel – involving thousands of soldiers deployed to provide back-up to the police after
    the Charlie Hebdo attack in January 2015 and the Paris attacks of November 2015.

    France has presidential elections starting from next month and remains under a state of emergency following earlier attacks.

    It is The Terror,
    let’s cancel the elections.

  • Ben

    I have a lot of fun pushing conservative faces into their own muck, like the Iraq debacle. I’m also looking forward to humiliating all Trump supporters as they return to their vomit for a second helping.

    • lysias

      Anti-interventionists in the U.S. opposed the Iraq war. Many Democrats like Hillary supported it.

      Hillary and the preponderance of Democrats supported and still support intervening in Syria on the side of Al Qaeda, and they have supported and still support policies that risk causing a catastrophic war with Russia.

      Trump has not proved as anti-interventionist as many of us hoped, but the alternative remains worse.

      • Republicofscotland

        Interventionists, have caused the rise of citizens of war torn countries to flee to Europe. I don’t see Trump halting that process. America has a long history of intervening in other countries affairs, non more so than on the continent of South America.

        Staying on South America for a moment, the revolutionary Simon Bolivar was at various times president of, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru and Colombia. ?

    • Habbabkuk

      It would be interesting if some of our transatlantic posters – especially those claiming extensive relevant experience and wisdom – would give us their view on why President Trump, a declared proponent of mess intervention abroad, should at the same tome feel it necessary to propose a substantial increase in spending on the US military.

      I wonder if the intention to build up the military is not intended to counteract the perceived power of the CIA? Or something else altogether?

      What do our transatlantic contributors think?

      • Loony

        If allowed to carry out his agenda Trump intends facing down both Germany and China – countries who he perceives as having weakened the US economy by way of large trade deficits.

        Enhanced military capabilities will likely be necessary to encourage China to see things his way. The Germans most likely can’t see anything at all and so there is not a problem there. Trump intends helping them to see one thing – and that is a large bill for their contribution to the US commitment to NATO.

        Trump is all about money. Increased defense spending will create jobs in the US – some of the costs of this will be paid for by Germany, and other costs will be recouped by way of arms exports. Yet more costs will be recouped by way of a re-balancing of the US-China trade relationship.. Spending on the military should him win friends and influence people in the Washington cesspit.

        Maybe his ultimate ambition is to topple Sweden from their role as the worlds largest per capita armaments producers – although that might be a bit ambitious even for him.

        • Habbabkuk

          I hadn’t realised you were a transatlantic poster, Loony. Are you American-American or Something-American?

          • Loony

            “My name it means nothing, my age it means less. The country I come from is called…” R Zimmerman

          • Alcyone

            I’ve learned to hate Russians
            All through my whole life
            If another war starts
            It’s them we must fight
            To hate them and fear them
            To run and to hide
            And accept it all bravely
            With God on my side

            But now we got weapons
            Of the chemical dust
            If fire them we’re forced to
            Then fire them we must
            One push of the button
            And a shot the world wide
            And you never ask questions
            When God’s on your side

            Through many dark hour
            I’ve been thinkin’ about this
            That Jesus Christ
            Was betrayed by a kiss
            But I can’t think for you
            You’ll have to decide
            Whether Judas Iscariot
            Had God on his side

            So now as I’m leavin’
            I’m weary as Hell
            The confusion I’m feelin’
            Ain’t no tongue can tell
            The words fill my head
            And fall to the floor
            If God’s on our side
            He’ll stop the next war

            –The Greatest Living Poet

      • fwl

        Pay heed to his declarations, but that does not equate to naive belief. No one accepts the public statements of politicians without a degree of caution. Those days have gone. If the declarations are by trump tweet or Spicer sweeties then who can take them seriously.

        Trump’s apparent message, his fundamental thing, is that change is afoot, and he must be taken seriously or he will not shake your hand.

        If it is true that he has returned control of drones from the military to the spooks then why is that?

    • Republicofscotland

      It was roughly a hundred years ago (1917) that a British general, gave a proclamation to the people of Iraq, back then it was known as Mesopotania.

      In his speech, Sir Fredrick Stanley Maude, said to the people of Mesopotania, now Iraq.

      “Our armies do not come into your cities and land to as conquerers, but as liberators.”

      Oh how times have changed. ?

      • JOML

        There was an interesting article in the National today on this proclamation. Then came oil and the people became less important.

        • Republicofscotland

          JOML.

          Yes indeed, I read it this morning and it came to my mind, when someone mentioned Iraq.

          History repeating itself.

  • Doug Scorgie

    Zed
    March 18, 2017 at 00:04

    “For example, it wasn’t so long ago that George Galloway was going to lead us all to freedom, and then he went on “Big Brother” and everybody woke up.”
    …………………………………………………………………
    Zed ,you say:

    “For example, it wasn’t so long ago that George Galloway was going to lead us all to freedom…”

    When did Galloway say anything like that Zed?

    Are you able to provide some sources or references for that nonsense?
    ………………………………………………………………………

    You then say:

    “…then he went on “Big Brother” and everybody woke up.”

    ……………………………………………………………………..

    People who watch Big Brother never wake up Zed.

    George Galloway was set up to be ridiculed by the broadcaster. It was a mistake on his part to believe he would be allowed freedom of speech on the programme.

    People obsessed with “reality shows” live in cloud cuckoo land in my opinion and are fixated by celebrity. (e.g. What dress is Kate Middleton wearing today?)

    These are not reality shows they are fantasy.

    • Republicofscotland

      Doug.

      It’s called dumming down society, and it has been going on for awhile.

      • Habbabkuk

        “It’s called dumming down society, and it has been going on for awhile.”
        ______________

        It certainly has judging by your spelling ability, O middle-aged geezer 🙂

        • Kerch'ee Kerch'ee Coup

          The other blade of the scissors is the dum-dumming down of societies , something you might know about from Lebanon and the DDR. That should be in bullet points,of course.

    • Zed

      Well let’s see what George Galloway said this very week.

      George Galloway has cast doubt on Scotland’s chances of becoming a member of the EU once independent, claiming the country is “far from being in love with the EU in the way the SNP like to think.”

      Galloway shrugged off the idea that those who voted to stay in the EU will automatically swing the vote for independence.

      “Many of the people who voted for the EU, are against independence and vice versa, including very big figures in the SNP.”

      The referendum would be the second after one in 2014, which saw a majority wanting to stay in the UK.

      “The SNP will fall short of what they got in 2014. In other words, the margin will be more than 45-55, which is why I am not entirely sure that this referendum will go ahead at any point.”

      • Habbabkuk

        That is a good post Zed, including as it does a very clear indication of source as requested previously by Mr Doug Scorgie.

        Will Mr Scorgie now return with a further defence of the ineffable Gorgeous George?

  • Doug Scorgie

    Anon1
    March 18, 2017 at 07:20

    Another horrifying Venezuela story that barely registers as news: Missing inmates found in mass grave
    “Venezuela jail search reveals mass grave with 14 bodies”
    …………………………………………………………………………………..

    Well Anon1, if this is reported by the BBC then it has registered as “news.”

    Who committed the murders?

    You don’t know but you imply it’s the left-wing Venezuelan government.

    Who instigated the jail search?

    • Habbabkuk

      Doug

      “You don’t know but you imply it’s the left-wing Venezuelan government.”
      ______________________

      I didn’t see any such implication. Do you know something we don’t, Doug?

    • Anon1

      The Venezuela government is certainly responsible for the mass grave. I didn’t say it committed the murders.

  • branches

    Daft Kezia has tweeted that she used the word poverty 7 times in her speech to conference and Nicola didn’t use it once in her speech.

    So Kez wants Scotland to leave the EU with all the poverty that will spread in Scotland. And we didn’t even vote for it.

    Yet the daftie thinks the moral high ground in politics is won by who can use a particular word more than opponents.

    • fred

      Word count on FM speech

      Independence 13
      Brexit 12
      Prime Minister 11
      Schools 1
      Education 1

      • branches

        fred

        I think you may have contracted Kezitis.

        Read an improving book or lengthy article and you should be fine.

      • JOML

        I wonder if “fucking them hard” involved utilising a Word function or a manual tally? Either way, he’s got “them”.

        • Republicofscotland

          Not as many times as you have, over the last dozen or so threads.

          Incidently staying on Scotland and Aberdeen (SNP conference held) for that matter. The catchy wee ditty, The Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen, were written by a English nurse called Mary Webb.

          If I recall the story correctly, Mary Webb, worked in a London hospital with a Scottish girl, who was also a nurse, she felt homesick for Aberdeen. Kindly Mary wrote the ditty to cheer the girl up, even though (Mary) she’d never set foot in Aberdeen. ?

      • Habbabkuk

        I agree, Alcyone.

        Although I probably agree with Fred on very little, that doesn’t stop me admiring the way he refuses to be cowed by the pack of little dogs yapping away at him continually.

        Nothing annoys the independentist Eminences more than someone who just ignores their attempts to divert, to insult and to tell lies and just keeps plugging away with inconvenient facts, facts, facts.

        I’d say Fred gets the better of them 90% of the time.

      • Republicofscotland

        “Keep fucking them hard Fred.”

        Says one of Habbs acolytes, it’s quite clear who the antagonists are in here.

        • Alcyone

          Rosy, you should know by now, I’m my own person; although I have to say Habby is a rare person here with a sense of humour, while you take the whole Dundee cake for being about the most boring.

          Anyway, I’m delighted that you feel antagonised.

        • Republicofscotland

          “Rosy, you should know by now, I’m my own person; ”

          ________

          Really!!!!!!!

          It certainly doesn’t show.

        • michael norton

          I can see that Ms. Nicola Sturgeon sees it all slipping away, it is now or never, the dwarf on her shoulder ( Salmond)
          says, go for it, do not hesitate, we can work out the fine details later, seize the day Nicola.

          But what I can’t imagine, is who is this meant to be fooling?

          • Anon1

            It was over when they lost the referendum. They’ve been deluding themselves ever since.

          • michael norton

            Theresa May must be pissing herself in fear.

            That Sturgeon woman is going to put a stop to the People’s BREXIT.

    • Anon1

      It has a great measure of independence within the UK. The Scots Nats want to exchange that for total subservience to the EU.

  • JOML

    Like Scotland last week, England didn’t turn up today. However, not to detract from the opposition, well done to Ireland for pulling a fantastic result outof the fire – and obviously again to England, for winning the tournament with a game to spay.

    • JOML

      ‘Spare’ even! Also, what an end to the game in Paris. Selfishly, I was wanting France to score a try on the corner and miss the conversion, pushing Scotland up the table… but I wouldn’t tell my Welsh in laws that.

  • michael norton

    Has anyone else noticed that the Indygoons
    have no answer for any question anyone puts to them.
    What currency will you use?
    Who will be the face of your currency?
    Where do you keep your gold?
    Which countries have agreed to be paid in your currency for stuff?
    How will you fund pensions?
    How will you fund dole money?

    • JOML

      Scottish pound
      Me
      Under my bed
      Outer Mongolia
      We’ll die young
      Full employment
      Any other questions?

    • Habbabkuk

      Norton

      That is because they simply don’t know themselves.

      It’s quite remarkable really, isn’t it – here you have a whole bunch of people busily yapping away in favour of “independence” for Scotland while genuinely not having a clue about what is envisaged in a number of highly important areas.

      Talk about inviting people to buy a pig in a poke! 🙂

      But I suspect the good Scottish people will note this lack of clarity (or sheer ignorance) even more than the first time round.

      • Republicofscotland

        “That is because they simply don’t know themselves”

        _______

        Habb

        Indeed they simply don’t know, after watching Hilary Benn, put umpteen question to David Davis over Brexit. In which Davis answered I simply don’t know, give me a year, and I might have the answers, is as you say unacceptable.

        As for currency in a independent Scotland, if you’d watched the SNP conference, you’d have known a Scottish currency is in the pipeline and will be announced at a later date.

        • Habbabkuk

          “…a Scottish currency is in the pipeline and will be announced at a later date.”
          _________________

          Let’s hope that’s not an oil pipeline, eh, RoS.

          • nevermind

            yes, heard of Mrs. Weyand, she is meticulous and all encumbering, she also is well in formed.

            Selmayr is a workaholic lawyer who does not take no for an answer. And Didier Seeuws is not just a substitute.
            All are present and correct, the establishment has chosen its stooges for this shiner.

      • JOML

        Habbabkuk & Norton – how are we going to reduce the ever increasing debt of our beloved U.K.? Do you have an answer? If so, Teresa May and her henchmen would love to know, because they don’t know how to reduce or stem the growth of this debt. If you can’t answer, have a look in the mirror.

        • Anon1

          Every time any attempt is made to reduce it, you and your ilk go into hysteria over “vicious Tory cuts”. You can’t have it both ways.

        • fwl

          The well known ways out are: 1) default, 2) war, 3) only borrow in own currency and inflate and less probable 4) make money.

        • Republicofscotland

          JOML.

          I doubt the gigantic £1.7 trillion national debt could be reduced in any meaningful way. All the treasury can do in reality is to service the interest.

          Even that will become difficult after Brexit and the exit of Scotland from the union.

        • Loony

          No-one has any intention of reducing debt whether in the UK, the EU, Japan, China or the US.

          Debt is a global problem and it is inane to believe that Scottish independence can any way help the citizens of Scotland to dodge this bullet. It ends in catastrophic collapse – as it has done always and everywhere that such policies have been tried in the past.

    • Iain Stewart

      Yes, Michael, and what colour will the stamps be, Michael, and do you care tuppence, Michael.

      • michael norton

        Penny Black or Penny Red,
        which should Scotland choose?

        Mind you, I expect you will formally adopt Scottish Gaelic?

  • JOML

    Oil painting yourself? All people have to go by on here are your posts. Pretty or ugly? Big, fat, slim or small? Does it matter to you? Your physical appearance is not of interest to me.

  • fwl

    Should Scotland rely on a Scottish Central Bank creating its own paper (or digi) money the wheel will have turned full circle since Scottish financier John Law first came up with the idea.

  • Republicofscotland

    Quite rightly there have been calls for George Osborne to quit politics altogether. His decision to take third job as editor of the LES (there goes its reputation) is a insult to the people of Britain.

    Osborne couldn’t even manage to do one job properly, I refer to his disasterous time as chancellor, in which he failed at everything he put his hand to.

    Now Osborne on top of his political post and his other position, now thinks he can add a third occupation.

    Is it any wonder there’s a petition to have him removed from his political postion, which has exceed 100,000 signatures.

    If I were on of his unlucky constituents, I’d want him removed and replaced by someone who focused 100% on the job.

  • Republicofscotland

    Surely all those under investigation Tory MP’s should be suspended until the police have finished with their enquiries.

    That would possibly trigger quite a few by-elections, and maybe then the unelected PM Theresa May, would then feel the need to legitimises her position and call a snap election.

    • Zed

      “the unelected PM Theresa May”

      Hey RoS I see the unelected PM Gordon Brown has suddenly appeared with a new 3rd Way” for Scotland. Considering that this must be the third time Brown and his former associate Tony Bliar, have proposed this “third way” garbage, and yet like you, they keep repeating the same old same old………

    • Zed

      Let’s face it, Scotland will be out of the NHS come that “Independence” you and CM keep talking about.

  • RobG

    I know I’ve said this before, but it really is like living in a lunatic asylum at the moment. Here’s a good example…

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46681.htm

    Donald Trump was the last gasp, the last hope (whatever your politics), and now that’s all obviously gone down the swanny.

    There’s now only two options: revolution or world war. World war is the option of the complete psychopaths who rule us. If it happens it will be the final war on this planet. If instead there’s revolution it will be very, very messy and very, very bloody.

    That’s the corner we have allowed the psychopaths to back us in to.

    It’s been the same throughout history.

    But it’s a Saturday night: go watch the garbage pumped out on the tv that’s used to mind control you.

    • Ben

      It’s too late. You’ve fallen for the poseur and you can’t redeem yourself without hundreds of hail Mary’s and proper penance…Maybe striking yourself with ramen noodles before you swallow.

      • RobG

        I’ve no idea what you’re banging on about; much like the ‘terrorist attack’ in Paris today, which will be used as yet another excuse to extend the state of emergency.

        Strange how this state of emergency coincides with the biggest protests in France (against the neo-con agenda) since the French Revolution.

        But I’m sure you’ll read all about it in your favourite rag.

        • Ben

          I’m ‘banging’ about Murray acolytes feeding their own confirmatioN bias. Shall I ‘splain that for you as well?

          • RobG

            Address the issue: what’s going on in France; not that I expect someone like you to have a clue about what’s really happening in France.

            You probably don’t have a clue about what’s happening twenty miles down the road from you in Kentucky, or wherever you live.

          • Ben

            Offer something for discussion..throwing a cow pie at a fence, hoping some will stick hardly suffices

            Am I being too demanding?

    • giyane

      RobG
      from your link:

      ” Last night the U.S. military hit a mosque in Al-Jīnah in Aleppo governate in Syria. It first claimed that the strike, allegedly targeting a large meeting of al-Qaeda, was in Idleb governate. But it turned out to be miles away west of Aleppo. Locals said a mosque was hit, the roof crashed in and more than 40 people were killed during the regular prayer service. More than 120 were injured. The U.S. military said it did not hit the local mosque but a building on the other side of the small plaza.

      The U.S. maps and intelligence were not up-to-date. A new, bigger mosque had been build some years ago opposite of the old mosque. The old mosque was indeed not hit. The new one was destroyed while some 200 people were in attendance. Eight hellfire missiles launched from two Reaper drones were fired at it and a 500lb bomb was then dropped on top to make sure that no one escaped alive. Al-Qaeda fighters were indeed “meeting” at that place – five times a day and together with the locals they have pressed by force to attend the Quran prescribed prayers.”

      I will not attend a mosque controlled by USUKIS’ Al Qaida. Looks like Mattis agrees with me.

    • RobG

      ‘Nuit Debout’ is now a massive movement in France…

      https://nuitdebout.fr/ville/

      … easily comparable to what’s happened in places like Spain and Greece.

      You might well be amused, and you might well swallow the total propaganda garbage pumped out by the MSM.

      But if you had any sense you would be very, very afraid (just like the Establishment are).

      We’re coming for you, the vermin, the trash, the trolls, the total scum who have taken over our societies.

      That’s a promise, by the way.

      • Ben

        Yes. I have heard your daring threats ad nauseum, and give them the same credence I allow Trump’s formidable excretions.

        Serenade us all with additional tone-deaf choirs of compassion for every sociopath earnestly seeking it.

      • Iain Stewart

        Thanks for the link, Rob. I see that in Lyon a small preparatory meeting is being organised in the Aristo Bar 22 March to organise a Spring revival of Nuit Debout on 1 April (as last year in the Place Guichard) which I will try to attend. Whether the movement will be “massive” remains to be seen. By the way, your repeated promises to eliminate opponents as “vermin and trash” hardly increase anyone’s credibility, do they? At best they make you sound like an inept agent provocateur.

        • RobG

          Early last year (2016) ‘Nuit debout’ had less than 30 groups in French cities and towns. Now it has hundreds.

          With regard to what I say about all this, don’t believe anything the media tell you about the forthcoming French presidential election.

  • Kit shields

    May be respect the last referendum No independent Scotland. May be respect the U.K. vote. Only 42% of Scotish voters to opose Brexit from a small tournout. May be we just want the dictatorship to start just sorting out the problems of the last 10 years of total mayhem. Its like a crowd of wanes playing Monopaly with peoples lives. So If this is a pro indy web site you are in La.L.a Land.

  • RobG

    I’m not telling GCHQ anything they don’t already know.

    GCHQ are a totally corrupt and criminal organisation.

    Every single one of these GCHQ feckers should be put on trial. They are all total traitors, totally in bed with foreign intelligence services, and serve no one but Wall Street and the City of London.

    The same applies to Mi5, MI6 and all the other little wankers.

    Once again, I’m giving you total tossers notice.

    You are going to be held to account.

    We can do this the easy way.

    Or we can do it the difficult way…

    • Ben

      You’ve swallowed the TRUMP FLOUNDER, whole, once again.

      Does your single sourcing have the word BREITBART anywhere in the Mast or cites?
      Heh?

      • Ba'al Zevul

        I think you’re wasting your good sense on that one, Ben. Its contract doesn’t include listening…

      • lysias

        As though CNN and MSDNC (or the Washington Post or the New York Times, for that matter) were any better than Breitbart.

        Trump certainly has his faults, but the Democratic Party, the corporate media, and the intelligence agencies have shown that they are worse.

        • Ben

          So you keep repeating as though the lesser weevil strategy had tactical legs.

          Why are you an apologist rather than proactive? IOWs, why are you so passive-aggressive?

          • Herbie

            What is your position exactly.

            No one is arguing that Trump is the Second Coming.

            Simply that his policies are better than what Clinton’s would have been.

            Do you disagree with that, and if so, why.

          • Ben

            After the benighted lysis responds, courtesy requires patience as to other replies. Cheers.

          • Herbie

            Just put it in English, if you can.

            What exactly are you arguing.

            The choice was between Clinton and Trump.

            Clinton offered one vision of the world.

            And Trump another.

            Overall, Trump’s is the better direction.

            That’s all.

      • Herbie

        It’s hardly Trump Flounder.

        We know, and have known for some time, that these listerning agencies spy on eachothers citizens as a way of getting around the law in their own countries.

        And then they swap that info.

        Even msm covered that aspect in depth when it first came out a number of years ago.

    • JOML

      I suspect you are right, RobG. Watch out for negative reactions from egocentric people.

    • michael norton

      What I would like to know about France:
      since Chralie Hebdo, which could well, have been a false flag event, a State of Emergency has existed in France, so more than one year,
      yet these “terror” events keep happening.
      So, is it possible that the State of Emergency is assisting “terror” to happen?
      I am not sure how many times the State of Emergency has been renewed but it has not lapsed?
      So, who actually benefits from the State of Emergency?
      Could it be the most unpopular French Government, ever?
      Could they be about to call off the forthcoming elections, because of the “terror”?

  • RobG

    People like me call out these totally corrupt scum in the ‘security services’, yet you good people still buy into it all.

    Why? (it seems like an obvious question)

  • fred

    The threat of another referendum is threatening jobs and revenue in the North Sea.

    The oil companies which own fields getting towards end of life have two choices, close the field and claim decommissioning tax relief from the government or sell them to smaller more specialised companies which can keep them open. The buyers of the fields will not be eligible for help with decommissioning unless a deal is done and no deal can be done with the uncertainty of the threat of another referendum hanging over us.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/report-warns-indyref2-uncertainty-threatens-oil-and-gas-jobs-1-4396937

        • Loony

          Why don’t you wake up and smell the haggis.

          BP has announced that it is in discussions to sell its Forties pipeline system to Ineos. Ineaos is owned by one Jim Ratcliffe who has an estimated net worth of $9 billion and is based in Switzerland for tax purposes.

          Ask yourself which company you think would be a better employer and which company pays more tax to the country in which its assets are situated.

          Could it possibly be that Nationalists are so in love with their own fantasy that they cannot even see the haggis even when Jim Ratcliffe is beating you around the head with it.

          Do you remember Longannet? It is now closed. The Scottish government seemed quite happy with this as it believed that BP was going to construct a “replacement” plant at Kinneal. Guess what happened to that plan?

          • JOML

            Longannete – an excellent example of why decisions should be taken in Edinburgh. Do you have an issue with self determination?

          • Loony

            It is a bit late for self determination after you sold out Scottish Power to Iberdrola – a Basque company (think about that one). I don’t recall anyone instructing Scottish Power to dismember itself.

            Delusion will not save you or anyone else. Scotland has been hollowed out as comprehensively as anywhere else. The last remnants of what is left are now being hoovered up under cover of the fog of nationalist propaganda. Whilst you bang on about this and that Jim Ratcliffe is busy enhancing his $9 billion fortune. For all I know he probably sponsors people like you.

          • Loony

            Not important enough to express an opinion on whether Jim Ratcliffe is good or bad for the Scottish economy.

          • Herbie

            BP is an intrinsic piece of the British state.

            It ain’t just another big corporation.

            So, its sayings and doings ought to be seen in that light.

            And there was plenty of corporate interference with both the Scottish referendum and the Brexit vote.

            With anti-Brexit British based corporates having been brought to heel recently after much mocking and climbdowns, even from the BoE!

            But yeah, it’s problematic that Scotland would be dependent on the EU.

            But necessary.

            They can’t just go out into the world and make their own bilateral trade deals.

            The way Westminster can seemingly do. There’s a reason why yer ex empires like Britain can still straddle the globe.

            Scotland needs to be part of a larger group to leverage itself up.

            That’s either the UK.

            Or it’s the EU.

            The decision is that simple.

            Except.

            Problematics are that the EU itself is at the centre of much destabilisation.

            It’s not going to last in present form.

            The end of top/down globalisation, is the end of the over-extended EU.

            The other thing to notice is that EU leaders have not given encouragement to the SNP.

            Why.

            Surely that would have been a good way of undermining the Brexiteers.

            But no, the EU leaders did not do that.

            They made things more difficult for Scotland.

            Why.

            This is not the time for Scotland to secede from the UK, In its own best interests, it’s not the time.

            They don’t have enough support around the world to make it work.

            The time may come, but this is not the time. Save your powder.

            Get the best deal you can, for extra powers, from Westminster, if that time hasn’t passed.

            You know.

            One supporter they could have had is the current President of the US, Donald Trump.

            But no.

            They dissed him.

            This is not what you do when you’re an aspiring new nation, seeking to make friends and influence people.

            Very amateurish in not understanding the deep and tectonic shifts that are breaking out all across the world.

            And forging a path through.

  • alasdair galloway

    why do all the WM MPs resign their seats at the same time (eg early 2019) and stand on a platform of negotiating independence if the SNP secure at least 30 seats (ie a majority of all WM seats in Scoltland). I take the point you make in relation to a Holyrood election, but do you really think the media would play the game straight under any circumstances?
    Re-electing the WM MPs would not come up against the difficulties posed by the De Hondt system, but achieve the same purpose;

    • JOML

      Similarly, if all WM MPs resigned their seats, we could resolve the EU referendum ‘wrong result’ issue. However, I suspect that salaries and pensions are more important.

    • Ben

      What are you suggesting?

      Is it preferable/less egregious to Trump the media to achieve your objective?

      • JOML

        Ben, I don’t think Alasdair was referring to you/ Trump. Are you meaning to post on another blog?

        • Ben

          Any rational person can see the reference
          to Trump’s abuse of media as a tactic …can you? Does it mean you endorse press limitations?

          • Loony

            The media have abused themselves – not as a tactic but as a strategy. Like a pack of rabid dogs the only option is to pull the trigger and put them out of their misery.

            A bit like they themselves pulled the trigger on millions of people by reporting egregious lies about WMD. There is an old saying that those who live by the sword shall also perish by the sword.

            All hail Carlos Slim the great humanitarian of the NYT. “Death to those who would whimper and cry for the sun is not yellow it;s chicken” – Suck it up Carlos.

          • JOML

            Ben, Alasdair’s post is not about you or your president. Are you an egocentric or do you have delusions of grandeur? You always kick off your posts with a flair… please don’t bomb us!

    • fred

      Yes why not do that.

      And why don’t the Unionist parties do a deal to just have one candidate stand against them? Split the constituencies, one candidate Conservative, Labour or Liberal.

      Do you think you could get your 30 seats then?

  • Ronald Olden

    This insane idea would create an illegal regime in Scotland similar to the former ‘Smith Regime’ in Rhodesia and the current Regime in Crimea. The Crimea Regime however, does at least have the legitimacy of a large majority of the Crimean population being in favour of it, and a big superpower backing it.

    UDI would result in immediate Commonwealth, EU and US Sanctions against Scotland.

    It would also involve US and NATO Military intervention because of the presence of the Nuclear Deterrent in Scotland and result in UK Naval occupation of the the North Sea to protect our oil facilities and fishing grounds.

    All payments of benefits and pensions by the UK to Scottish residents would cease as part of the Sanctions and the Barnett formula payments to Holyrood would stop. All Bank Accounts and property held by Scottish Citizens, businesses, local authorities, and the Scottish Government itself, would be frozen by the Bank of England in order to protect our financial interests.

    Millions of Scottish Refugees would flood South or if we were still in it, to the rest of the EU. Scotland would effectively cease to exist.

    • lysias

      Also similar to the government of the United States after the Declaration of Independence.

  • Aaron Baird

    Why has this ‘Craig Murray’ not been ‘Sectioned’ under the Mental Health Act.

    The proportion of people in favour of Scottish Independence is (at best) similar to the proportion in Northern Ireland who wanted Unification with the Republic. But even the IRA weren’t sufficiently insane to try this mad scheme. And they at least had an ‘Army’ (of sorts) behind them, and an, albeit reluctantly, sympathetic existing state in the Republic itself.

    The consequences that Ronald Olden describes in his previous comments are only half of what would happen if Murray’s childish scheme was tried.

    Assuming that anyone was able to carry on living in Scotland with no Banking System, Benefits Pensions, Money, Sanctions and their property and bank accounts frozen, there’d also be a violent resistance movement involved, supported by the 55% who voted to stay in the UK and probably most of the rest as well. If the majority of people are against holding a new Referendum they’re hardly likely to support UDI and all the suffering and catastrophe that would entail.

    This article does however highlight the childish, self indulgent, demeanour of the people who are behind the SNP.

  • Ronald Olden

    P.S.

    Mrs May hasn’t refused the SNP a Referendum anyway.

    All she’s said is that the SNP are not being given permission, in the event that it takes their fancy, to hold a Referendum between Autumn 2018 and Spring of 2019 so as to use the threat of it as a lever to destroy Scottish and UK interests at the end of the Brexit talks.

    After we leave the EU in March 2019 the SNP will probably be allowed Referendum whenever it likes.

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