There has been a steady decline in the SNP vote in Scottish opinion polls during the General election campaign, and a steady recovery in the Labour vote from a very low base. At the same time, support for Independence has been stable or even growing – the latest Scottish poll asking the question puts support for Independence at 54%. And digging down into the data tables of recent polls, the concomitant is indeed true. A quarter to a third of those currently identifying as Labour voters in Scotland support Independence.
As I have frequently demonstrated, the Scottish electorate is indeed substantially to the left of the English electorate on economic issues. This is not a myth. What appears to be happening is that some Labour voters who deserted the party when the SNP were substantially to the left of Labour, are returning to Labour enthused by Jeremy Corbyn’s campaign.
I was down this weekend at the Merthyr Rising Festival and it is impossible not to be swept up in the joy that so many people feel at seeing a genuine alternative economic policy offered by Jeremy Corbyn at an election for the first time in a generation. Renationalisation and an end to austerity, and an ethical foreign policy, are things to be excited about. I get it – a sledgehammer is being taken to the blockwork surrounding the Overton window. Who would not want to show support for that?
The latest opinion poll shows
SNP 39%
Conservative 29%
Labour 25%
Not including this, the last poll of polls showed
SNP 42%
Conservative 29%
Labour 22%
(All polling referenced can be found on the Scot Goes Pop website linked above).
The iniquity of the first past the post system is such, that the drift of support from SNP to Labour risks handing up to a dozen seats to the Tories, while potentially gaining only 2 or 3 seats for Labour – and only from the SNP.
If Labour continues, despite Manchester, to advance in the UK wide polls it only requires a further swing of perhaps 2% from Tory to Labour before polling day before we are potentially in hung parliament territory. It therefore could be absolutely essential that the combined Labour/SNP MP’s outnumber the Tories. It would be a huge tragedy if the Tories were to get an overall majority simply because some Scottish voters who like Corbyn switched from SNP to Labour, and thus let the Tories in.
The case of Edinburgh South is arguable, but Edinburgh South aside, there is no constituency in Scotland where for Corbyn supporters to vote SNP risks helping the Tory. I realise that tactical voting is a complex ethical question, but if you want your vote to have practical effect, rather than act as a form of personal expression, it is essential that Scottish Corbyn supporters vote SNP, and most especially in rural constituencies.
Looks to me like Labour is taking votes from the SNP. and should be continued.
Scottish independence must wait until Europe has got rid of the Trump threat
And then you would find some other excuse to give for it being delayed.
Tump’s impact on world affairs is NOT just an excuse.
We don’t need an excuse for the union, the majority voted for it just two and a half years ago.
It’s the Nationalists that keep inventing excuses.
Yes but the union they voted for in 2014 has disappeared with Brexit. So unionists must secure a fresh endorsement under the radically changed circumstances.
Will English voters get a say on the structure of Britain?
They get the overriding say at every UK general election.
“Yes but the union they voted for in 2014 has disappeared with Brexit. So unionists must secure a fresh endorsement under the radically changed circumstances.”
That sounds like another excuse to me.
After the Nationalists lose another referendum what will their next excuse be?
fred
If a country is to remain in a democratic political union with other countries it must have agreed to the prevailing constitutional setup. The Brexit vote radically altered the UK constitutional setup. Since Scotland didn’t vote for that radical change, a second independence referendum is required to resolve the matter about which union – UK or EU – Scotland wishes to remain in.
Britain voted for Brexit, Scotland voted to be part of the union and go with whatever Britain voted for.
At the time of the independence referendum we knew there would be a Brexit referendum, we voted to be part of Britain anyway.
“At the time of the independence referendum we knew there would be a Brexit referendum, we voted to be part of Britain anyway.”
Except there was no guarantee the tories would win the 2015 general election and a Brexit referendum was a side issue.
“Britain voted for Brexit, Scotland voted to be part of the union and go with whatever Britain voted for.”
Sounds like you’re looking to be subservient to a nice dictatorship. Unfortunately for you Scotland didn’t vote to relinquish it’s democratic voice, no matter how many times you say and long for it.
I will be voting Labour in a safe SNP seat.
All my life i’ve wanted a national party leader who can be trusted, who is not in politics for personal gain, who will put forward a genuine socialist platform and isn’t in thrall to the military industrial complex. It would be crazy therefore not to vote for Corbyn.
I have voted SNP in the past but to put it lightly their left wing credentials are extremely sketchy. You can give them the benefit of the doubt in that they need to appeal to a broad section of the electorate but their Holyrood program has lacked any boldness and demonstrated a tendency to conservatism (land reform, named person, football bill, air passenger tax, buses and trains). There is also the lack of party democracy and the quality of their candidates. The party as a whole strikes me as being completely theory free with genuine political vision beyond gaining independence.
I hope I am wrong but I think a strong showing for Corbyn leaving the left in control of Labour will be more important to social justice in Scotland than a strong SNP showing here.
That should be no genuine political vision.
You wouldn’t be voting for Corbyn, it’s not a Presidential election. He has been in Parliament for decades and done nothing of note. Besides your post is so confused and has taken no cognisance of Craig Murray’s argument it looks like a Labour plant.
Firstly there is no chance of a Tory win in my seat so it doesn’t apply. Secondly if it comes to candidates Labour are putting forward a genuine socialist while the SNP incumbent Marion Fellowes seems like a nice lady but there isn’t much else to say about her.
There are about a dozen seats maximum that the Tories can win and Corbyn voters in those seats will be able to make their own in complaints. For those of us in west and central Scotland there is a decision to be made between boosting SNP majorities or boosting Corbyn’s national vote share which will be vital in the future control of the UK labour party.
Independence is a gamble and it is now going to be very difficult to even achieve a second referendum (it might actually be harder than winning it). For left wing people who care about social justice and progressive politics we cannot allow ourselves to be overly focused on independence we must remember that (i) the majority of important decisions which affect us are taken at Westminster and (II) that the protections afforded by devolution are not guaranteed and that May indicated in her Tory conference speech in Perth that they are planning to take those protections away. The strong campaign for independence has done nothing to keep the right at bay in Scotland.
As I said the SNP are a very wishy washy structure. There is no intellectual tradition behind them and a good amount of the recent elected politicians are lightweights or opportunists. Where are the independence rallies or austerity protests in Scotland? The SNP have a massive membership yet there is very little happening on the street to indicate that they are desperate for change.
Stu,
If you think the likes of Dugdale and her ilk on the Blairite side (Darling, Mandelson, Teirney) of Labour won’t USE you and your vote as evidence of some sort of resurgent support against everything Corbyn you’re an extremely naive individual.
Craig hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Don’t be a useful idiot for these war hawks.
Send a strong Scottish message to Westminster on the 8th.
The Labour candidate in my constituency is on record as pro Corbyn and her daughter has stood for RISE. Corbyn needs a strong result so the project to reclaim the Labour Party can continue.
I’m sure the SNP will hold my seat with a reduced majority anyway so my focus is on supporting Corbyn and all those fighting for socialism in England.
Correct, we only need to look at the ‘expulsion’ of Labour Councillors in Aberdeen for going into coalition with Tories, followed by not expelling Councillors for doing the same in two other areas, followed by nothing really coming of it, to show there is a whole lot of smoke and mirrors from Labour. Labour votes are Labour votes, morality and hypocrisy is discounted.
It seems also that Scots have forgotten Scottish Labour allowed absolute minimum powers for Scotland in the Smith Commission, then Labour in Westminster voted down every SNP amendment that would have improved powers for Scotland. Corbyn was voting with those Labour MPs.
He opposed Scots having a further Ref but supports NI having a Ref.
Voting for Corbyn in Scotland is voting against Scotland.
Brian – Why MPs vote the way they do can be for a variety of reasons, I’ve seen nothing in Corbyn to suggest he voted against the SNP amendments beause he is ‘against Scotland’.
Johnny boy
He voted against the amendments and opposes Independence Referendum while supporting a Ref for NI. That would say a vote for him would take us further from deciding our own future, just as the Cons and LibDems have done.
A hung parliament might then reveal how genuinely progressive SNP are. The show goes on.
Difficult one Craig. We so desperately need Labour in power that tactical voting may be too risky. Polls are always unreliable. My thought is that we should all just go for it and vote Labour.
What? Vote Labour in Moray, Angus, Banff & Buchan, Perth & North Perthshire etc to keep the Tories out.
Do you really want to keep the Tories out? Or are you one of those Labour unionists who would rather have right wing Tory government ruining Scotland than have independence?
Peter – Correct. You have one of two choices, Labour or more Tories – due to our political system there can only ever be two prominent parties – it sucks but there it is.
This fits this thread better. Im late as usual. But perfect timing on subject.
On the Scottish question, if I may.
We need people to work together whatever, and far from ‘stuck with Tories forever’ story’s we can see (even in this circumstance) much of the uk ain’t that stupid. People with the same distaste for Tory policy exist here, are willing to work to get it done and can.
Add to that all the positive energy of these working for Scotland in a similar way…? I certainly don’t think opposing these (not separate) social forces is a good idea. How things materially manifest is import to consider. What do people want this area to look like? Myself i’d like it to feel just as at home in Scotland as it does south. As it does here for many people I know from Scotland.
I guess I should have read the above first. But I’m now considering your take Craig.
Craig..
I completely understand what you’re saying, it’s been giving me headaches in fact. And as a voter in Dumfries and Galloway I’ve struggled with exactly this problem! I am strongly in favour of a Labour government under Corbyn, however I am also radically against Scottish Independence, and even more radically against Scotland remaining in the EU. So. How then in all conscience can I vote for SNP?
You’re pro Brexit, against Scottish Independence and you live in a constituency which will either be Conservative or SNP after the election. Logically you should vote Conservative
Because it will kick the Torys in the nuts?
I don’t know how it works but guessing a vote for snp is a vote for independence? …sigh, seems very divisive and dare I say not very progressive, democratic, to have a one policy party.
Not very progressive of you Ishmael to have a one dimensional view of Scotland.
I don’t.
e.g., Just because I think some people in Scotland may like that (as I would) doesn’t pre-suppose a one demential view at all.
And acutely I was also saying a one policy party does in many ways.
If Scotland does leave, you will still have a lot of unhappy people who didn’t want that.
sigh,…Do we really need another brexit on these islands.
If people suffer Brexit for romantic reasons then I have as much sympathy for them as xenophic brexiteers, it is the real world effects that interest me. The real world efects if Indy are different from Brexit, although it may also bring a few friendships down to a realistic level…
Indeed. And as I walk into the polling station that will have to be my priority, Ishmael, regardless of the fact that I have no faith at all in a Scotland that tries to “go it alone”. Scottish Independence makes no economic sense that I can see, and if “currency” was a big unanswerable, last time around then what kind of resolution can we expect next time, with the added possibility of remaining in Europe thrown into the mix? If I may coin a phrase…. *sigh*
A vote for the SNP in your constituency is unlikely to increase the chances of independence.
However it may combat austerity which is a real evil to be confronted.
You have to resolve that one for yourself, Paris! I would prioritise keeping the Tory out – you may disagree with the SNP on constitutional matters but the Tories are killing people. However it is your decision.
Agreed. And as my constituency has in the past traditionally been a Conservative seat I suspect that like other Labour voters in is region I’ll be forced into the SNP camp. Go, democracy! 🙁
You should be delighted that your vote could actually make a difference. Be proud as you place your X in the SNP box and hope that thousands more around the UK have your brains.
Brexit is happening. That vote has taken place.
When there is another independence referendum, you can vote on that issue.
This election is about whether you want to see labour like policies adopted at Westminster
If labour have a chance to beat the conservatives in your seat fair enough vote labour.
If the only party which can beat the comservatives and reduce their majority is the SNP then vote for the SNP
The labour manifesto has policies which the SNP have implemented in Scotland and would no doubt support across the UK given the chance.
If the Tories were put out this time they will be back in power in the near future and continue where they left off. The only way to ensure no Tory policies is for the SNP to win and Scotland to be independent.
Corbyn hasn’t got any real policy on Brexit and whatever deal comes along will be much less advantageous to the one the UK has now. The current Labour policies hasn’t taken the effect of Brexit into account.
However people must live with the effects of their votes. If Scots leave control in the hands of Westminster then they will have to live with policies from whoever is there.
Labour has been in power as MPs and Councillors in Scotland for decades, achieving nothing of note. Devolution was an attempt to scupper the move to independence.
Summed it up nicely Brian.
If Corbyn gets in he’ll be only in with the help of other parties and still have a small majority. With most of the Parliamentary Labour Party hostile to him. Most of the media as well as big business and Washington will want him out. As you say, he’ll not be able to do much to counteract the disaster of Brexit and the Tories would be back in after a while.
While these forces will be here no matter what (and in Scotland) id like to know how you know? I think this “Tory rule forever” is proven nonsense, maybe tories back in can be too.
I have an issue with all this prophecy. What about what we do now in this circumstance.
38 unbroken years of Tory and Neoliberal Labour governments in Westminster running and ruining Scotland isn’t nonsense. It’s historical record.
Good luck to the Corbynites, but a lot of posters are overlooking the fact that the Tories are still far more likely get in again with a workable majority. Or be the largest party with Lib Dem, or far worse, DUP MPs keeping them in office.
And whoever gets in to Downing Street, Scotland would be trashed by the effects of a Brexit we never voted for. Neither May or Corbyn agrees to a second independence referendum.
There will be an advisory referendum and Scotland can get free of the tyranny of Downing Street for good.
Conservatives are Unionists and Empirialists, the tide of history is against them. It is like leaving Europe, is it the current political powers or the institution itself which is the problem? Not that a Lexit vote wasn’t delusional given the conservative bias of the UK compared to the rest of the EU. What would happen to the SNP post Indy? They’ll implode in their vacuosity and buckle to the next surge from left or right.
Ishmael you are forgetting why people are seeing endless Tory rule. It is down to the lamentable state the Labour Party is in. Corbyn’s worst enemies are within his own PLP! They’ve spent nearly two years at war with him and were willing to take the Party down in the process. They didn’t care what other major issues needed their urgent attention. Their priority was to destroy Corbyn and nothing else.
I believe there is an analysis which shows Scotland has only got the Government it voted for twice in 50plus years. Thus it is only the English/Welsh vote that matters.
If those who want Independence do so, SNP will be there to support Labour in Government and have a chance to convince old empire guys like Corbyn of the benefits to rUK and Scotland of Scottish Independence.
At least SNP have a better idea as to how to run our Country than those who represent Labour in Scotland in Councils and (in the day) Parliament, without greasing their palms
Corbyn is not and never has been an old Empire guy. SNP on the green benches with a depleted labour in opposition has been and will be detrimental to the people of Scotland.
Scottish independence must wait.
Craig, god love you and with the genuine and deepest respect I have for you as a man of courage and great intelegence – you’ve never been more wrong about anything in your life.
SNP in uk parliament does little for the cause and keeps the Tories in.
A couple of years ago, I read with interest about the campaigning work of Andy Wightman, whose main interests are to do with the reform of Scottish Land Ownership. Apparently, the majority of the Highlands is owned by a relatively few very wealthy individuals. My question therefore is; Why has Ms Sturgeon and/or the SNP not made reform of ownership a central plank of her policies, surely this must be something of a “hot topic” amongst the Scot’s electorate, and would appear to be something that would raise they’re popularity.
This is a link from the Observer in 2013:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/10/scotland-land-rights
Indeed it is a very passionate cause among most Independence supporters, and the SNP’s reforms to date have been timid.
The SNP government has done things around this. Right to buy has been extended from the West Highlands and Islands to everywhere including urban areas. Also the Scottish law of inheritance has changed, no more can you leave it all or most of it to a single heir. All your heirs must get equal shares, in property or monetary equivalent.
Estate owners, despite their origins being in essence taken by force or subterfuge as Andy Wightman details in The Poor Had No Lawyers, the owners have inalienable property rights under human rights law which makes too much land rights very hard to do.
The change to inheritance law should break up the big estates over generational time. However for it to work the proposal from the working party and the Greens that ownership via anonymous offshore entities or companies outwith the EU should be banned has not been. I expect the Greens to push that issue further in this parliament.
Also Shooting Estates used to be exempt from business rates, no longer. Another move which potentially breaks up estates who are not as financially viable. Another possible measure would be a land value tax which is being strongly looked into. The more land you hold the more it will cost you. So unless that land is earning you more than the tax you are in trouble. IF that tax can only be paid by identified beneficiary owners then those behind offshore companies will have to identify themselves or have their assets seized in lieu of unpaid taxes. The Scottish taxman will then be very interested.
So you may not have been paying attention but I have. A lot which can be done has been done. More needs to be done but in essence we need to let time, disease and infirmity do their jobs.
Also expect to see more community buy outs, all over Scotland.
Thank you for the reply, I’m now better informed.
I still call that timid. A right to buy for tenant farmers with very large discounts related to period of prior tenancy, differential taxes on non-resident property owners, and in extreme cases confiscation, these are the kind of things needed. The inheritance thing is a nonsense, easily got round by trusts, offshore holdings etc. And I don’t care if the Duke of Buccleuch’s vast estates are split equally between his parasitic offspring. A solution that takes less than 200 years to reduce inequality would be good.
“More needs to be done but in essence we need to let time, disease and infirmity do their jobs.”
Or what happens over there doesn’t effect us. This kind of political calculation is what lead to recent events. Like we can just have a boarder, defend it, and everyone will be better somehow. And like the “let em all kill each other, they are different to us”. attitude.
” Also the Scottish law of inheritance has changed, no more can you leave it all or most of it to a single heir. All your heirs must get equal shares, in property or monetary equivalent. ”
Only if you die without leaving a will which has been the law in England and Wales for decades. As it applies to all property, large or small, it would of course be a recipe for disaster as in few generations the family farm will end up divided into postage stamp size parcels of land incapable of being worked for subsistence let alone profit. Besides why should the government be able to dictate how you dispose of your property. You may have a child who’s a paedophile or a Tory voter and deserves to be disinherited.
Kempe
Am I right in htinking you’re a long time LP supporter who dislikes Corbyn? If so, have you considered not voting labour?
I live in the Speaker’s constituency. He’s supposed to be neutral so the main parties don’t campaign against him, the only other candidates are UKIP and an independent, neither of whom I could possibly support.
I’ve often wondered what it’s like to live in the speakers constituency – is he any good as an mp?
Opinions seem to vary. On the couple of occasions I’ve had to write to him he’s been very helpful.
An interesting aspect of this election has been the focus (led by the BBC) on swing seats which has effectively made invisible the majority of the population who live in seats which the Tories have no chance in.
Watching Reporting Scotland dash from Perth to Dumfries to Aberdeenshire to Moray you would think that urban Scotland wasn’t holding any sort of election.
To be fair, few of the urban seats in Scotland are marginals. With some of the Edinburgh seats being the exception.
That’s true but the election is nation wide as is BBC Scotland’s remit.
They should be reporting from safe seats as often as from marginals. The picture they are presenting at the moment is completely distorted.
In every election the focus is on the “battleground” seats. What do you expect?
I wouldn’t expect Reporting Scotland to chose five seats to focus on in a week, four of which are Tory targets and not one of which is in the central belt.
When the SNP announced the campaign for a second referendum the BBC went ‘around the country’. This involved Dumfries, a bowling club in Falkirk inhabited by pensioners, Aberdeen and Inverness. They are purposefully not reporting from areas where support for independence is strongest.
CM,
As someone who has fought on behalf of Corbyn since July 2015 and been ‘BANNED’ from the Labour Party for doing so, the fact remains as far as Scotland is concerned (and Wales) is that the Tories are denied seats, which means Labour Party supporters voting tactically as emphasised by Clive Lewis. In Scotland’s case, and dilution of the SNP vote means you get a Tory in most instances given the lamentable performance of the Lib Dems in all recent opinion polls.
However, and what you have not mentioned is this salient fact, namely, the Blairite/Bitterite rump within the PLP and the Labour Party are looking at any excuse to depose Corbyn after the GE, so they will use Labour’s share of the vote in Scotland as another nail in Jeremy’s coffin if it has not recovered, which, it won’t if we are honest given the state of Labour in Scotland presently, which is anti-Corbyn – Labour supporters are not anti-Corbyn, but then they don’t count in reality.
So, its a rock and a hard place for your average Labour supporter in Scotland and in Wales, but the priority presently is to deny the Tories seats – we can fight the Blairites/Bitterites again after 8 June.
The thing is, Labour’s crash in Scotland started long before Corbyn.
In the 2010 GE result it was Labour 42%, SNP 20%, Lib Dem 19%, Tory 17%
In the 2011 SP it was SNP 44% Labour 26%, Tory 12%, Lib Dem 5% Green 4.3% Other 7%
In 2015 GE it was SNP 50%, Labour 24%, Tory 15%, Lib Dem 7.5%
In 2016 SP it was SNP 46%, Labour 22%, Tory 22%, Lib Dem 8% Green 0.6% Other 1.1%
Scotland is unpredictable.
If you can only reach power through a deal with a party, whose price for support is that they’re allowed to escape thereby casting you back to the wilderness then where is the sense in that?
A person and love democracy? Then don’t vote.
Every party will continue austerity to some degree. They have no choice.
That 54% of the Scottish Electorate who want Independence need to understand only one thing. Giving their votes to Westminster based parties is like nailing their feet to the floor, they will suffer and go nowhere.
Rob Royston.
You never said a truer word.
If the pain of the Tory Government is sore enough, the English voter will rid themselves of them now.
If not, we will have to wait until the next G.E. by that time it will be sore enough.
The Scottish vote has never counted, unless it has coincided with the majority of English votes.
Well said Rob.
What appears to be happening is that some Labour voters who deserted the party when the SNP were substantially to the left of Labour, are returning to Labour enthused by Jeremy Corbyn’s campaign.
I’m one of them. I’ve never been a Nationalist, I just want sane government. For a while independence offered a very slim chance of getting it. Now Corbyn offers a very slim chance of getting it, plus he offers a chance to register a desire for left-wing policies.
I doubt he’ll win, but if Corbyn raises the Labour vote, the Blairites can no longer pretend that his policies are unelectable, and a corner will have been turned.
However, the bottom line is that democracy in the UK is a sham and neither Scottish independence or left-wing policies are achievable. However on this occasion, I choose to dedicate my futile gesture to Corbyn.
We also need to consider where the Labour Party might have been at this moment if Corbyn had not been thoroughly and publicly undermined from the moment of his election, and even before, and even to this day, by numbers of his own MPs and the Labour right, and if he had not had to waste enormous time and resources on an unnecessary reaffirmation of his leadership. J
They’ll blame Corbyn for absolutely anything. I think though that aside from constitutional barbarity, which the vote share won’t have any influence on, Corbyn is safe given his strong campaign performance. I reckon the centrists will split.
If Jeremy were to become prime minister things will change pretty damned fast – the BBC will be reorganised, Levinson will be implemented as well as corbyn and McDonald’s long standing belief that British news papers should be owned by British citizens – Harmsworth and Murdoch stand to lose their propaganda rags it’s pretty radical stuff we’re talking here – ultimately I think corbyn would be deposed much like Gogh Witlam was in Australia, but who knows?
Good reply. Shatnersrug. Glad you have recovered so nicely.
It was Gough Whitlam, though
Ooch spelling was never my strong point 🙂
I thought Sturgeon performed well with Neill last night in the face of unfair questioning. The focus on education was absurd given that it is a devolved issue and that May has barely been questioned about the damning report on Free Schools by the Public Accounts Committee.
However she badly let herself down when she said she did not agree with raising corporation tax or even reversing the ridiculous Tory reduction.
How about a vote for the SNP in this election is not a vote for independence…..?
Do it later of something?
or* something
Theresa (in grey and white today and without the f off pearls) is speaking to Tory clones in SW London.
Still nothing about policies just a lot of knocking ad hominems against Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott. The assembled company love it just like Pavlovian canines.
‘Strong and stable leadership’ keeps being mentioned and the placards refer to her and not to the partei
‘Theresa May’s plan for a stronger Britain’ say the placards with ‘conservatives’ in a small font at the bottom.
Similarly, ‘A Secure Britain’.
She fears a SNP/Labour coalition, She made a few references to its possibility.
The right wing of the Labour party won’t really be paying any attention to the vote share. The public perception of Corbyn’s performance will be a much stronger deterrant, there may well be a few bloody minded individuals who will try a coup anyway but their reasoning will be hard to understand and any reference to a vote share will seem petty.
For those people considering voting for Labour and not the SNP in this election, I would ask you to consider your view of the Scottish parliament.
Do you want it to have more powers over welfare and tax policy and to protect it against the conservatives plans to draw back powers to Westminster?
If so you really need to examine the role of the labour party in the Smith Comission. The labour party despite being the most vocal about powers coming to Scotland in the event of a NO vote ( remember the wall to wall coverage of Gordon Brown) they were the unionist party which offered the least powers when they had the opportunity to do so.
Why would they do that?
In my view it was because they did not want the SNP to be the party in Scotland which could use those powers to the betterment of Scotland and who would in all likelihood have reaped the benefits at subsequent elections.There was no electoral advantage to Labour so It didnt happen. The party was put before the country and they will do that again.
Labour will never get my vote again for that very reason.
For those of you considering voting conservative instead of labour you really have to ask yourself do you want to make it more difficult for the party in England to win. For every seat that the conservatives win in Scotland, even if it is to defeat the SNP , will hand Theresa May a larger majority.
I honestly dont understand why anyone who supports labour policies would do that.
Finally if you are a conservative voter in Scotland who enjoys the protections that the Scottish parliament has secured for you, I think you really need to look south of the border and decide if you like what you see in the NHS in England or in education and policing. Theresa May wants to ‘ harmonise’ services actoss the UK which sounds like a threat to me. Even if you don’t believe that she will go so far as to interfere with our health service, remember that ongoig budget cuts in England in these areas do feed through as cuts to the Scottish budget, making it harder each year for our services to be maintained withiut cuts to other areas. Perhaps you are one of the few who believe that its fair that Scotland pay twice for these services, once to Westminster and then once again through a higher level of tax in Scotland.
Surely it is simpler and fairer just to avoid the cuts in the first place.
Unless you are one of the minority of people in Scotland who want the Scottish parliament weakened or abolished, it does not make sense to vote conservative.
Silver Darling.
A fine comment, keep it up.
Is May’s government trying to make out that, in light of MI5 having been warned about Salman Albedi being a threat, it is now preventing a 9/11-style attack by capturing that pilot who just finished his training at Shoreham?
Sounds like what Washington did after the 9/11 cockups at the expense of Saddam’s Iraq, the Taliban’s Afghanistan, and the rest of the Middle East except Israel.
The coppers, well displayed in the accompannying photo op, only need three more arrests for the full 9/11 complement of suicide bombers.
I strongly agree with this. If I lived in a seat that was under threat from the Conservatives, I would definitely vote SNP to stop the Conservatives.
Any increase in the Labour vote would not be noticeable on a national scale as there are only about a dozen such seats anyway (out of over 600). But what would be noticeable would be if they unwittingly elected Conservative MPs, supporters of ‘Rape Clause’ Ruth and ‘Mushroom Cloud’ May.
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/ruth-davidson-rape-clause-just-involves-ticking-box
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-nuclear-weapons-first-strike-michael-fallon-general-election-jeremy-corbyn-trident-a7698621.html
Of course, Kezia Dugdale would rather Labour voters in these seats voted Conservative in the first place!
https://wingsoverscotland.com/in-case-you-still-werent-sure/
What if you lived in a seat comfortably held by the Conservatives in England, like Shoreham-by-Sea. and were being subjected to propaganda overkill by the panicked May government?
Anyone who strongly favours Corbyn and lives in an SNP-Tory marginal will be able to make their own decision who to vote for and it is likely to be an anti Tory vote.
The vast majority of voters in Scotland who are torn between Corbyn and the SNP are likely to live in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lanarkshire and other parts of the central belt where the SNP are unlikely to lose any seats. At that point adding to Corbyn’s national vote share is a risk free tactic.
Given Scotland’s only Labour MP has been backstabbing Corbyn at every opportunity and Kezia Dugdale supported Corbyn’s leadership opponents, stating that Corbyn could never be the PM, it’s clear that Jeremy Corbyn would be better supported by the SNP.
Love Corbyn? Don’t vote for Ian Murray!
Any loss of seats for the SNP due to voters buying into Corbyn’s hopes and dreams will damage Scotland’s governments socialist policies. Please don’t forget that the SNP has already implemented some of Corbyn’s manifesto pledges, whilst in England and Wales, they’re still on a wish list for Labour.
The Tory branch in Scotland would benefit from
such voting, leaving the SNP weaker overall. On the upside it’s very encouraging that over 50% of folk living in Scotland now see independence as a sign of hope and not deeper austerity.
Independence for Scotland is in reality the only real way forward.
This vote will have no effect on Holyrood.
And if the SNP are socialists they are keeping very quiet about it.
I really don’t like being associated with this “unionist” word/ position, political simplification. I’m no more in favour of a wider bounded area than a small one. indeed aren’t people who want a state of their own ideologically unionists.
It seems like a swear word to me (maybe that’s just given my view of states) and a way of simplifying a whole complex group of people. I’m not about to start referring to many people here as separatists.
People not remotely involved in politics are no doubt better people…
“I’m not about to start referring to many people here as separatists.”
________
Why not, the “unionist” parties and its politicians have been using that word for years.
They vehemently dislike the word independence, well they did from 2012 to 2014, but loved using the word the union. Now they use the word independence more than the SNP do.
However Scotland existed as a country long before the corrupt and enforced union of 1707.
Of course Corbyn backs a united Ireland but not a independent Scotland. In truth as one or two commentors in here have already declared. Even if Corbyn wins, once his term is over the Tories would probably return to power. Scotland is better off out of it sooner than later.
Why? because as i said it’s a political simplification about people. And actual individuals positions are nuanced.
Scotland existed? I beg to differ other than some arbitrary notion, codified in bits of paper, like all states. What is country? I’v no doubt some people imagine it tangible, but that they doesn’t mean that’s a good thing. Maybe peoples ideas differ.
Corbyn backs a united Ireland, yea, so do I ..Why “of course” ? do you take it a a slight? He’s a practical thinking person seems to me.
“Scotland is better off out of it sooner than later.” …I don’t no about at all let alone sooner.
The points you make about historical stuff are unrelated to good reasons now, And aren’t practical suggestions as to why it’s better… And aside from this new prophecy of “they’d get back anyway” (because we say, like you said Tory rule forever) shouldn’t you consider what actions you take (as an ongoing influence) on current circumstance over what’s “going to happen”…As a way of deciding political matters? It seems a lot like the politics of fear to me.
I don’t know that like SNP at all actually, They use Tories like Tories use Terrorists.
but that they do* doesn’t mean that’s a good thing
ps, And really compering irish unity to Scotland independence seems quite a stretch. Scotland has nothing like the recent history of Ireland in relation to the uk.
I suggest you read up on the Highland Clearances!
“However Scotland existed as a country long before the corrupt and enforced union of 1707.”
Yes Scotland existed as a country prior to 1707. I have no idea if the Union was corrupt and enforced. i do know that Scotland was bankrupt at the time and went cap in hand to the English. I also know that Scotland was bankrupt as a consequence of a failed colonial venture that was unarguably based on corruption. Strange how the failure of an aggressive and expansionist Scottish foreign policy has led Scotland to view itself as an innocent little country full of goodness and purity corrupted by the evil English.
Loony, that sounds like you read the ladybird book of Scottish mythology. Certainly, some prominent people in Scotland lost their cash in the Darien Scheme but it’s stretching it somewhat to say the country was bankrupt. Also, it was England who made the approach, offering Scotland a share of their debt, bribing key people in Scotland – another simplified version of events but a step up from Ladybird.
“i do know that Scotland was bankrupt at the time and went cap in hand to the English. ”
_________
Really!
Yes the failed Darien Scheme left Scotland in a poor financial position, but less than one percent of the people of Scotland were allowed to vote on the union.
The nobles, land owners commissioners etc, that did have a vote, were handsomely paid in English gold known as the Equivalent to vote yes to the union.
The vast majority of the public had no such choice, and many outbreaks of violence occured in Scotland over the forced union. English spy Daniel Foe, who changed his surname to Defoe to make him appear more interesting, reported those violent events back to London.
Yes the hierarchy in Scotland were broke, and so was Scotland and although Scotland had no debts at the time of the union. Immediately after the corrupt union was forced through, Scotland and Scots, those without a vote, became liable for a share of England’s debts. It has been that way ever since.
A wee bit of further reading for you Looney.
http://www.thenational.scot/culture/15258180.Bought_and_sold_for_English_gold__Part_three_of_our_major_series_marking_the_310th_anniversary_of_the_Act_of_Union/
You may like this, I do, but then again I like Alistair McDonald’s songs.
Do you think England had universal suffrage in 1707? You think the vast mass of the people in England saw any benefit from a union with Scotland?
Fast forward 300 years and try to spot the difference between the poverty visited on the people of Glasgow and the poverty visited on the people of Liverpool. Try to spot a difference between vast swathes of Scotland being owned by absentee landlords and high end London real estate being owned by foreign (and mostly absentee) criminals.
Scottish independence is a simple con job designed to fragment the poor and prevent them from coalescing into a meaningful whole. It is little surprise that its most ardent proponents are to be found in the British ruling classes.
Loony, you begin making fair points but to say that the main proponents of Scottish independence are to be found in the British ruling classes is just nonsense.
Talking today about what he would do as PM regarding indyref2 Corbyn said that after opening discussions with the Scottish Government “I would ask them to think very carefully about it and suggest it would be much better to have this question dealt with at the conclusion of what are very serious and very important Brexit negotiations…”
Clearly hoping to spoil things by making the indyref date too late to have Scotland avoid an EU exit.
Also there’s his choice of words “this question dealt with” to describe an independence referendum. “Dealt with” is an odd phrase to use if he had any good intentions of signing a Section 30 order.
No matter. There will be an advisory referendum before Brexit and Scotland voting Yes would get world opinion fully behind Scotland’s democratic choice.
reel guid.
Yes clearly Corbyn doesn’t believe in home rule for Scotland, something the founder of the Labour party did believe in.
Aye Ros
If Corbyn ran a guest house he would have a sign in the window saying ‘No Scots unless North British’.
reel guid.
Times have changed dramatically, now many of the people from Northern England, want to be part of Scotland.
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/huddersfield-part-scotland-more-50000-12740029
People are fleeing England in there thousands to Scotland, due to NHS cuts that have led to mass deaths. Oxford Univeristy research backs the claim about the deaths up.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/fleeing-england-for-their-lives/
Even Neil Diamond has a clear view on the election here in Scotland…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anrsQ69n7es
JOML.
Ha, ha nice one, I particularly liked the arrow pointing at Orkney and Shetland, saying liar, we all know who that was meant for, Mr Frenchgate himself.
JOML
If Scotland doesn’t get out this union then it’s more mean Tory governments.
Or to paraphrase Neil Diamond,
Forever in Blue Chains.
Eric Joyce with a really good tweet. Ruth Davidson is saying polls don’t count, only the election. In that case why is she saying opinion polls and not the Scottish Parliament should determine if there’s an indyref2?
Craig,
Most people won’t do tactical voting, including (probably me). I will simply vote for the Labour Candidate.
I find the following video, exceedingly interesting. Manchester arena had not been built when I lived in Manchester. It looks a significant improvement on Wembley arena where I have been many times.
I still have come to no conclusions about The Manchester Terrorist Attack…but a very large number of people are becoming convinced, that we are not being told the truth. I don’t do Twitter, so I cannot verify the veracity of the claim by this poster on Youtube. is G M Police @gmpolice Greater Manchester Police??? He claims that on the same day, Greater Manchester Police issued a warning that there was going to be a controlled explosion, and that no one should be concerned. He also claims that Paul Harrisson @SkyNewseditor reported the same thing. Does Twitter in the UK use an American Time Clock? I don’t know cos I don’t use it, but the time stamp is 5:23pm – 22 May 2017 . This Youtube poster, may be presenting a complete fabrication, and that the event (5 hours later) was real, as has been reported. I don’t know, but I am becoming increasingly suspicious. I find it hard to believe that people in this country are that evil, and that if they are, either Greater Manchester Police, or the Machester Fire Brigade (who were not allowed to attend, until 90 minutes after the event) – would blow the whistle, and the criminals responsible would be arrested.
“Manchester Terror Attack Hoax: Controlled Explosion Passed Off As Terror Attack! ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhdl3a_m4k
Tony
Right to be most confused, Tony, but it isn’t the people who are causing these problems but our covert governments which generally get their missions wrong, like the Manchester killer instead of just assembling a big firecracker was able to put together a much more powerful bomb than they expected.
Trowbridge H. Ford
Where’s the blood and body parts?
The Official photographs (and videos) are in the public domain.
Thank God, I have not personally experienced a Real Terrorist Attack – but I have seem some of the real photographs from Iraq. There is blood and guts everywhere.
The official videos and photographs re The Manchester Terrorist attack look like they were done, by a Teenage Film Crew using bored amateur actors, and exceedingly little fake blood.
I have seen more real blood from a magpie, that one of my cats brought in. Blood splattered everywhere in my front room. The magpie survived – but was obviously not very happy.
The kids cleaned up nearly all their fake blood whilst doing a horror movie in the back room of my house, when we were away. They even tidied up. No beer cans, no evidence of alcohol use (exept for the photos which I was not supposed to see)
Tony
We are always shielded from what our enemies allegedly do to us.
The media always warn us about the horror we are about to see, but it is almost never forthcoming. It really doesn’t want to upset us more. We might change channels or purchase a different newspaper.
Trowbridge H. Ford,,
So are you suggesting that the authorities did a fake Terrorist Attack – and used those photographs and videos for public consumption – and then later in the day, the real Terrorists came in and did it for real?
I wouldn’t put it past them…but I simply do not believe that, without very substantial evidence.
I must look at Bataclan again. At the time I was very impressed with one of the photographers and the shoot out later. there’s bullets flying everywhere – the police are hiding behind cars – and he is standing up without any protection – photographing it all. He is a professional (famous) French photographer. I know how to use a camera, but I wouldn’t have the balls to do that. The chances are I would end up dead – unless at least part of that was a staged production. Being French – they probably brought in the real shooters as well – and killed innocent French people for real?
Something about all of this really stinks. Haven’t you noticed?
Tony