Miko Peled, target of the latest Labour anti-Semitism allegations, is a Jewish Israeli, former member of Israeli special forces, son of a famous Israeli general and grandson of a signatory of Israel’s founding Declaration of Independence. You can object to his views, but he can hardly be anti-semitic in any sensible meaning of the term. Nor is he either British or a member of the Labour Party, nor was he speaking at an official Labour Party event.
Given all of the above, in what rational world can Miko Peled said spark newspapers from the Guardian to the Daily Mail to carry, as their lead stories, articles on anti-semitism in the Labour Party, centred entirely on Peled’s comments to a fringe meeting last night?
What Peled is alleged to have said is that discussion of the Holocaust ought to be allowed – with an apparent inference that means discussion of its existence or extent. Now we only have versions of what he said put out by his opponents, so I do not know the precise words he used or their context. I have always banned holocaust denial from this blog, because having had occasion to serve in Poland and both meet survivors and be involved in commemoration events, I have had much closer contact than most people with the overwhelming evidence for what happened. I also find it to be true that those who espouse holocaust denial are often using it as a vehicle for actual anti-Semitism and even for Nazi sympathy. So it is not allowed on this site. But neither do I think it should be actually illegal to hold that view. In context, Peled may have been saying no more than that.
If Peled was saying holocaust denial ought to be a valid subject for party political meetings, I disagree with him very strongly. It also contradicts what he is reported to have said immediately afterwards. He said that platforms are not given to neo-Nazis and were not given to supporters of apartheid South Africa, so they should be denied to Zionists too. I broadly agree with that – but would deny a platform to Holocaust deniers on the same score.
Peled’s remarks have been a great boon to the mainstream media who have had a great deal of difficulty in finding a way to denigrate Corbyn’s leadership sufficiently. They had fallen back on the old “Misogynist” charge related to Laura Kuenssberg, with the BBC’s extraordinary propaganda decision to give her a bodyguard in case she was yet again subjected to joking pantomime hisses.
Which brings me to one of the great unanswered emails of our time:
Jasper Jackson is the Guardian’s assistant media editor who had published a piece on online abuse of Kuenssberg. It seemed reasonable to ask whether he had actually seen any evidence, as I had been unable to find any. He did not reply – and I am willing to assert he did not reply because he had no evidence.
Jackson however is not in the same category as David Babbs of 38 degrees, who lied through his teeth about the existence of misogynistic comments on an anti-Kuenssberg petition. Babbs refused to speak to me but I did manage to interview their press spokesman on 11 May last year, and it is a piece of real journalism of which I am very proud:
Hello Craig
Hello Adam. I hope you are not quite so busy today? Has it calmed down for you?
It is a bit less busy. Well we are very busy on other important things. Did you see the article by David Babbs in the Guardian today?
I did, but it doesn’t really answer my question. I haven’t received the evidence of the abuse connected to the petition which you said you would consider sending me. Are you going to send it?
I don’t really have the time for this
But you must have this evidence. You took a well-supported petition down. You must have the evidence you based your decision on.
There were abusive tweets and commentsCan you send them to me?
You can search for them yourself online
I have done so. But you must have the evidence?
Look yourself online
This is a big story. In all the national press. You must have kept the evidence on the basis of which you made the decision?
You said yourself you had seen misogynistic comments
I said I could find a single one – very unpleasant but only one – out of hundreds of comments I read
So you did see misogynistic comments
One.
Search yourself online. There were tweets.So far I have been able to find one. That is one comment and one tweet. Have you seen more?
There were misogynistic comments and tweets
More than two? Out of thirty five thousand signatories? How many have you seen?
There was misogynistic abuse
How many have you seen. You personally Adam. You said yesterday you had seen the evidence. Have you, personally, seen more than two?
If you are going to start shouting at me
More than two? Simple question, yes or no?
I don’t expect you to be impolite and abusive towards me.
How much evidence did you see?
We had seen sufficient evidence.
Is that more than two? Is that more than two? That’s a very simple question.
We had seen sufficient evidence.
Have you seen more than two things? Have you seen more than two things? That’s a very simple question. I am recording you. Is that more than two things?
You can record if you like. We had sufficient evidence.
Is that evidence more than one tweet and one comment?
I could…I have got to go I have things to do here
Do you have more than one tweet and one comment?
Hangs up.
It is also worth stating that there was no evidence at all the two nasty comments – out of 35,0000 signatures – aimed at Kuenssberg had any connection to Corbyn supporters.
To threaten someone with violence is very serious, a crime. The police act on such complaints. Stuart Campbell of Wings over Scotland has been harassed by police over his non-threatening tweets. If there was serious abuse and threat made towards Kuenssberg, there would be police investigations and people would be appearing in court. Where is the evidence for all of this happening? There remains a complete dearth of evidence, yet that did not stop the Guardian alone from running five articles about the Corbynite threat to Kuenssberg this week – every single one of which was 100% evidence free.
That was before they diverted on to the story of the Jewish, ex Israeli Special Services veteran being an anti-Semite.
I do not doubt Kuenssberg receives some abuse. Everyone in public life does. I receive abuse including threats of violence. But if there is evidence that there is a genuine and unusual threat to Kuenssberg, that evidence has never ever been shown. God knows, I have very genuinely tried to access that evidence (I have also asked Kuenssberg if I can see it – she did not reply either). What does exist is a huge volume of complaint about her obvious right wing bias. The established media is desperate to portray this kind of challenge to their authority as illegitimate.
I am obliged to conclude that both the “anti-Semitic Corbynites” meme and the “misogynist Corbynites” meme are Fake News. They are Establishment media concoctions designed to protect the interests of the Establishment from political radicalism. I also conclude that the BBC gave Kuenssberg a bodyguard, not because there is any danger at all she will be assaulted by Corbynites, but in order to boost that propaganda.
————————————————————-
I continue urgently to need contributions to my defence in the libel action against me by Jake Wallis Simons, Associate Editor of Daily Mail online. You can see the court documents outlining the case here. I am threatened with bankruptcy and the end of this blog (not to mention a terrible effect on my young family). Support is greatly appreciated. An astonishing 4,000 people have now contributed a total of over £75,000. But that is still only halfway towards the £140,000 target. I realise it is astonishing that so much money can be needed, but that is the pernicious effect of England’s draconian libel laws, as explained here.
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I’m looking forward to others in alternative media raising these very important and as yet unanswered questions, time and again. If some are going to base their strongly held opinions upon vaporous political theatre, then at very least we should become theatre critics.
I share your conclusion, the fake news of anti Semitism was used to smear Corbyn and the Labour party, as well as Livingston for that matter, but the new clause 4 will have a clause added that says:
” hatred of Jews shall not be evidenced by non abusive words or actions regarding Israel or Zionism that are part of legitimate political discourse.”
What would we do without the friends of Israel in our representative party political structures? Sigh… we might even be able to see straight again and actually see what we had in our partners in Europe, able to develop policies that are not interfered with by one or other split loyalty section within a political party.
UK foreign policy can take back the powers they once had, just make it clear that the only Friends you represent are the people in your Constituency, first and foremost.
Laura Kuensberg must feel central to the politics of this country, all her demeanour at press conferences and the attention she gets from the panels for her pushy self, make it more than clear to me that she is the best Conservative party spokesperson ever employed by the BBC.
” hatred of Jews shall not be evidenced by non abusive words or actions regarding Israel or Zionism that are part of legitimate political discourse.”
Don’t these arseholes know that evidence is a noun, not a verb?
Unless I missed some subtle joke… “evidence” can be either a noun or a verb depending on how the word is used.
No. it. effing. can’t.
Kropotkin
“Unless I missed some subtle joke… “evidence” can be either a noun or a verb depending on how the word is used.”
Where are you getting this from.
Is it from American films?
It’s used a lot in American cop shows. “I evidenced this from that” etc
I think they mean “infer”. They infer this from that.
That’s fine.
But evidence is of a whole different category. It’s rather more objective than inference.
So using such an important legalistic term so loosely just indicates a stupidity.
And that’s probably why the US is going down.
It seem the people running the US don’t even understand English any more.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me. As I read it, this clause appears to say that you cannot be accused of hating Jews if you are critical of Israel or Zionism in a civil manner and as a part of legitimate political discourse – your words are not evidence of anti-Semitism. That seems a good thing, unless I am seriously misreading it. J
Sounds reasonable to me too – though i thought i recognised that sentence from a Jewish Voice for Labour motion which was withdrawn.
Perhaps Miko Peled is on a special-op to stir the shit in the Labour Party. His ticking of all the boxes seems a bit too tidy.
The only issue is who will be a better Friend of Israel after a coming required election to rubberstamp the Brexit deal, Dada or Bojo !! In the meantime all this is just anti-semantics and B(D)S. Its imperative to take complete control of SKY before that election if we are to continue prevailing are the instructions from Ronson.
And the thoroughness of the smear does illustrate who runs the establishment.
She wasnt just slightly biased against Corbyn and anyone sympathetic to him, she was a BBC attack dog let off the leesh to rip his throat out. Its pretty breath taking she now pretends to be a widdle puttie tat
Our blogger is not the only one questioning the LK bodyguard story: –
http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/laura-kuenssberg-bodyguard-really.html
The BBC has become a state media representative much as you would expect any state sponsored media in other, including third world, countries. A few weeks back Humphries interviewed de Mistura and instead of listening to what the man said and asking relevant questions he instead harangued him as to whether he thinks Assad should stay. It being irrelevant what Humphries’ opinion is on who should lead Syria, the harangue went on for a few minutes. A couple of weeks ago Radio 4 had continuous covering throughout the week about the Russian Belorussian military excercises. They repeated on many occasions and said by different observers that all these excercises preceded ‘aggressive’ Russian actions quoting Georgia in 2008 Bd Ukraine 2014. The fact that any action by Russia was a reaction to trouble stored by the other side was ignored. A few days ago John Humphries interviewed an ex mayor of Jerusalem who contradicted the advice given by our security services on how to act in the case of a terrorist attack by confronting the terrorists as he claims that this is a highly successful strategy that works well in Israel. He forgot mention that Londons unlike in Israel where most Israelis are trained army reservists who probably carry weapons the population of London is made up of a cosmopolitan mixture of peaceful individuals. I am not even sure why this was broadcast.
I share your pain. Even Radio 3 has been diminished by too much yak n crap
or people who disagree with you?
Dis Res. If you red carefully what I wrote you will not make this remark. But maybe your answer is to Rise and not for me?
As suggested by one Jasper Jackson
https://twitter.com/JaspJackson/status/912594561364570112
Labour fringe speaker’s Holocaust remarks spark new antisemitism row
Party to adopt rule change cracking down on antisemitism as Tom Watson announces investigation into Holocaust remarks
Matthew Weaver and Jessica Elgot
Tuesday 26 September 2017 12.39 BST First published on Tuesday 26 September 2017 09.20 BST
Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, has said the party will investigate how it gave a platform at a conference fringe event to a speaker who said people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust happened.
/..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/26/new-antisemitism-row-for-labour-over-fringe-speakers-holocaust-remarks-miko-peled?
Tom Watson sings Am Yisrael Chai. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvUtuzoHgCg
That’s disturbing. Maybe he’s in a habit of singing the anthems of other countries in public. If not, it’s more than a little strange that he’s singled out Israel for special honour. What is going on here?
It’s at a Labour Friends of Israel event.
Ah, ok. Strange nonetheless. Unless Tom Watson is Jewish, what’s the big attraction?
That is a question, to which an answer would be desirable.
I must say that I am curious as to why so many prominent politicians affiliate in this way.
What is it that we don’t know?
There is some aspect of this phenomenon that just seems obscure.
Has there been any kind of analysis of the psychological origins of this fascination with the re-formation of a biblical entity.
It seems rather irrational at many levels.
Why exactly did Balfour and presumably the then government feel the need to ‘give’ something to form a Jewish homeland?
Was it a response to the pogroms of the previous decades, a response to the disruption of the 1st WW.
Is it some religious belief or sympathy? Is it a strategic concern?
Has Tom Watson ever been asked to explain his connections and sympathies?
I believe the Zionist promised to bring the US into the war via their networks and media control in America in return.
“Why exactly did Balfour and presumably the then government feel the need to ‘give’ something to form a Jewish homeland?”
It was anti-semitic not to give them Palestine.
And that’s why it was done.
There is mention of financial doings in the official record, but i think that’s inconsequential to the great moral case for israel, which the British, in their good and great majesty, fulfilled.
As ever.
Since the mid to late 16th century to be honest.
Have you heard his version of Delilah?
“Tom Watson, has said the party will investigate how it gave a platform at a conference fringe event to a speaker who said people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust happened.”
Nice to see that Liarbour is still a defender of free speech. If it’s been abolished can I make a bid for the party putting a bag on Watson’s head to shut him up?
Pity the BBC didn’t provide bodyguards to the youngsters who were abused on BBC premises by Jimmy Savile and his sicko ilk.
Meanwhile, Israel continues to attack Syria: ‘Israeli jets bombed site close to Damascus airport, reports say’:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/22/israeli-jets-bomb-site-close-to-damascus-airport-reports-say
‘Israeli jets have reportedly bombed an area near the Damascus international airport in the third attack in as many weeks by the Israeli military on targets associated with the Lebanese group Hezbollah.
According to social media reports on sites associated with the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad, Israeli planes fired at least two missiles from outside Syrian airspace, hitting either a weapons depot or a convoy.
The Facebook page of the National Guard for the Defence of the Homeland, allied with the Syrian military, reported that “an area near the Damascus international airport was attacked by a hostile missile”, while images showed a fire burning in the early hours of Friday.
The Lebanese television station al-Mayadeen also reported the attack….’
And: ”200,000 Jews Will Settle Kurdistan’: Turkey Turns to Fake News to Discourage Kurdish Referendum’:
http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.812314
‘After Netanyahu endorses Kurdish independence, Turkish pro-government outlets launch media blitz about ‘secret’ Israel-Kurdish deal to settle Kurdish Jews in new state
As Turkey ramps up its warnings against an independent Kurdistan, pro-government newspapers reported Wednesday an alleged deal to settle 200,000 Kurdish Jews in the new state, Al Monitor reported.
The reports claim that the plan was hatched by Kurdistan Regional Government President Massoud Barzani, and come as Ankara ramps up its warning against a “yes” vote in the September 25 referendum.
One pro-government Turkish newspaper, Yeni Safak, wrote that Barzani “recieved support only from Israel during the referendum process” and will utilize “help from Kurds of Jewish origin.”
On Thursday, Turkey’s foreign ministry warned Iraq’s Kurds that holding the referendum will “come at a cost.”
“We call on them to act with good sense and abandon this erroneous approach immediately,” said Ankara’s thinly-veiled threats.
Other Middle Eastern countries, all of them home to Kurdish populations, echoed Turkey’s attempt to deter Kurdish independence. Earlier this week, the Iraqi parliament approved measures for its prime minister to maintain Iraq’s unity in case of a “yes” vote. Iran’s President Rohani called the situation “unacceptable,” saying that “geographical change and division is not in the interest of any of the countries in the region.”
”We Won’t Allow the Creation of a Second Israel,’ Iraq Warns Ahead of Kurdistan Independence Vote’:
http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/iraq/1.812853
‘Iraq’s vice president said on Sunday that his country “will not allow the creation of a second Israel in northern Iraq,” in a reference to the Kurdish attempt to gain independence, a pro-Kurdish news site Rudaw reported Monday.
Iraq’s Vice President Nouri al-Maliki made the comments to U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Douglas Sliman.
Ahead of the September 25 referendum on Kurdish independence from Iraq, a measure opposed by Iraqi lawmakers, Netanyahu declared his support for “the legitimate efforts of the Kurdish people to achieve a state of their own,” making Israel the only country to support the establishment of an independent Kurdistan…’
Now substitute ‘Palestinian’ for ‘Kurdish’ in “the legitimate efforts of the Kurdish people to achieve a state of their own,”, and hear Netanyahu howl…
It is about time post modern BBC came to an end. It conducts its smearing toxic propaganda and lies on license payers’ money. This is an OUTRAGE!
Bodyguard? Bodyguards plural? No Bodyguards. LOL
https://twitter.com/zelo_street/status/912631550348587008
26 September 2017
Laura Kuenssberg Bodyguard – REALLY?
For many pundits observing this year’s Labour Party Conference in Brighton, and for the Guardian’s Gaby Hinsliff in particular, one story has come to encapsulate the divisive and aggressive nature of politics in the social media age – that BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg has, reportedly, had to hire a bodyguard. This, we are told, is as a result of threats made against her by unidentified Rotten Lefties ™
http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/laura-kuenssberg-bodyguard-really.html
It takes you back to the Soaraway Sun, another of Murdoch’s organs, and one David Wooding. The latter is often on Sky News in one capacity or another, ‘They’ (the scribblers) make the fake news and then review it later on in the ‘papers’.
https://twitter.com/JeffGeorge10/status/912664938530959361
Craig Murray, I strongly urge you to spend 30 seconds formatting that quoted letter. It is virtually pointlessas it stands. Who is speaking? It is you, having a soliloquy? A dialgue? An imagined dialogue? Some of it appears to be the wording of your interlocutor. But how much and which words and why it is all inside the context of a letter from you is impossible to disentangle. Why make things difficult for your readers and supporters? Please, do try to cast your eye at least once, cursorily, over your pieces before you post them.
Pietra : ?????
The letter and the transcript are perfectly clear.
Try reading it again. or is this some kind of joke-Pietra-‘stone’?
It isn’t a letter. It’s a transcript of a telephone conversation. And I can follow it perfectly well. Very little disentangling required. J
Actually within WordPress it is carefully formatted so my words are italicised and his are not, but annoyingly it doesn’t come out that way.
Maybe your blog standardises all fonts into the blog one?
Because it is within a blockquote which has a style setting all the text to italic.
I said pretty much the same on the last thread.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/09/president-abbas-rebuke-theresa-may-palestine/comment-page-1/#comment-698177
They are frightened to death with the prospect of socialism interfering with their control systems. What is evident is this false non-existent anti-Judaism, for want of a term that might not send my comment into moderation, is not going to wash. People in this country do not hate, by and large. We are a tolerant nation. It is a false story that needs nipping in the bud.
Judaeophobia might be a suitable, modern term.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/sep/24/bbc-political-editor-given-bodyguard-for-labour-conference
The certainty of the headline soon gives way to unverified hearsay. Check it out to see how worthless the whole article is.
I wouldn’t allow it here either but on that subject, does anyone know of someone questioning the reality of the nazi genocides by reference to Roma, Sinti or Germans who had Down’s syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, epilepsy or alcoholism etc?
Why wouldn’t a “sceptic” refer to these crimes against humanity, if they were genuine, open-minded questioners?
This is the kind of sacred cow that is nurtured and kept current by the narrow interest group and establishment alike, dictating the trend that you see. Muslims are getting beat the crap out of; stabbed and bombed and ……… none of that matters, because as we know they are all untermensch and deserving of the treatment they are dished, however dare not even think of anything else other than what you are told to think, and all is OK. In all probability the stasi will delete this comment too, just for the sake of staying correct.
Check the headlines, it is all about antise….. and just in case there is the mention of the other sacred cow the Royals, whom have been insulted; by getting classed as ridiculous.
That is besides the LK bodyguard stories and the “run on the pound” all in all the PFI contractors and the railways and utilities profiteers have been stirring into action to protect their relevant patch, and greedy bastards have jumped into action to rubbish labour in case they (greedy bastards) end up with none of the fat of the land they verily believe they are entitled to.
Look at the circumstances where abortion is legal in Britain, eugenics a-go-go. My point was that “sceptics” never question the reality of Aktion T4.
>never question the reality of Aktion T4.<
Because it's well documented.
Wasn't it also stopped?
True story that happened last night.
I joined a Twitter debate talking about Laura K. One lady said that it was disgusting the threats Labour thugs made to her. So I asked her (just the once in a polite tweet) if she was able to please provide a link to proof of what she was saying. I got a Tweet back from her saying to stop contacting her as i was “harassing” her, and that she was was blocking and reporting me!!! I was gobsmacked!
Then a second lady on a different thread, who was affiliated to many right wing sites, said the same thing about the abuse of Laura K by Corbyn supporters. Again I sent a tweet asking polity if she was able to link me proof of this………
Well, I checked my twitter several hours later to see I had received 20 public tweets from this woman. She accused me of supporting the abuse of women and enjoying it, and it was because of people like me that women were raped and children sexually abused! She said I enjoyed and encouraged the abuse of women for me own enjoyment……..
Now as a former police officer who worked within child protection and a current worker in social care I look after the most vulnerable and ill people in society. And I was publicly accused of supporting abuse of women and encouraging rape all because I asked for a link providing Laura K was receiving misogynistic abuse from Corbyn supporters!!
This woman then sent a tweet several hours later saying she had confused me for someone else. But I received no apology! I asked her if she saw the irony that she had spent the last several hours sending the wrong person (an innocent person) abuse about how wrong it is to abuse someone?
She blocked me!
Yes, that’s the thing: the anti-racist credentials of the accused are far stronger than those of their accusers. It’s a silly, spiteful campaign and will achieve nothing. People know better.
I would have thought that the fact LauraK has to have security protection is all the evidence you should need – but apparently now if someone is the subject of abuse they need to provide evidence to all and sundry via Twitter.
You’ve not read through any of this have you? And I wasn’t asking Laura to provide evidence, I was asking those who accuse Corbyn supporters to prove they are “thugs” for which they claim.
Still silence
and where else would they get such evidence other than from LauraK who for understandable reasons would not want the abuse to be made public. I have received abusive emails from those who read this blog – I am not going to make the contents public – I just informed the police.
So if someone (allegedly) hires a bodyguard and makes a public accusation that you’ve been harassing people with abusive messages, you’ll then be honour bound to accept their word for it without further need for evidence, is that a fair description?
You have done the right thing by going to the police. But I think you understand that what bloggers here are saying is that nobody has produced any evidence if this online abuse and not is the police investigating.
Thanks for that account Phil, it has really been the last eye opener for me, having been asked to join twatter more than once. If people don’t see their own mistakes anymore and try to shout you down, is a situation that encourages bile and hatred online. Just to read some of these tweets is appalling, never mind trying to reason within a conversation.
Newspaper comment blogs are not much different. I commented yesterday that we should really not expect the 48% to keep quiet and clap their flippers at every catastrophic move made by this Government, the answer by someone was’ So why don’t you go home to your own country if you don’t like it here’…
that was the second in a week, but I will not be shut up by people who can’t even formulate an argument, never mind making a cup of tea, my skin is getting thicker……
’ So why don’t you go home to your own country if you don’t like it here’…
Yes, I often get that one thrown at me on this blog.
Indeed Fred, (I wonder who said that to you?) shocking, worse still Scottish school girl living in England told to “fuck-off back to Scotland, a few months ago, by Tory candidate.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/15/tory-mp-james-heappey-wells-swore-scottish-schoolgirl
So you believe Scots Nationalists are justified in being as bigoted and racist as thy like just so long as they can find someone else that is bigoted and racist as well.
I voted Liberal, if you don’t like Conservatives I suggest you do the same.
So nobody said it, just as I thought.
I agree that 38 Degrees should have been more rigorous about the Kuenssberg misogyny allegations. I’m a supporter of theirs, despite their digging their heels in, and I think their value in the present political climate cannot be underestimated. With the political elite becoming ever more disconnected from ordinary people, and neoliberal ideology becoming ever more brazenly applied despite its manifest failures, the likes of 38 Degrees are the closest thing that we have – in the UK at least – to democracy.
38 Degrees (and groups like them, like Move On and Avaaz) are a royal pain in the arse to the Establishment. True, such groups are not exactly radical, but they really have notched up a good number of wins – even against the likes of Murdoch. I’ll grant that sometimes they don’t get it right, as in this case – but Babbs is not an Establishment stooge. I think they’ve just internally agreed to take a stand against misogyny, without examining the context of Kuenssberg’s obvious bias against left-wing politicians. It was the wrong decision to take the petition down, but now they’ve done that, they will feel even more daft if they back out of it. So, they’re circling the wagons.
If there were a meaningful way for 38 Degrees members to ask them to make a more persuasive statement on the matter, or to produce their evidence, or to reverse their decision, I would participate in it. But I see that as unlikely, and I’m not willing to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. We have to make such compromises in all areas of politics – indeed, being a member of the Labour Party itself means endorsing things one does not agree with, for the sake of supporting a rare social democratic force.
@ Jon September 26, 2017 at 16:58
‘Safe zone for Syrians, now!’: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/syria_safe_zone_loc/?pv=196&rc=fb
‘….38 Degrees (and groups like them, like Move On and Avaaz)’:
38* are generally good; Move On I’ve never heard of, but Avaaz is totally ‘sold out’ to the NATO warmongers.
I am convinced they fiddle the Petition numbers (when a 9/11 petition was up there, the numbers stayed unbelievably low, even though I knew from contacts that people were signing it, but they just didn’t register.
The same thing happened with a White House petition site in the States.
Yes, that these groups have supported NATO “no fly” zones is a frustration – I spotted that of Avaaz at the time. I don’t think they are broadly “front” groups though – it’s just they have a lot of liberal steering internally and not as many left-wing or anti-imperialist voices.
I’ve so far declined to support Avaaz financially for this reason, though they seem to be doing very good work presently with moving the Rohingyas to a place of safety (and much else besides, over the years). As ever, there is no clear delineations of good and evil, and sometimes we’re left with merely the least worst options.
No one cares who Laura Kuenssberg is, no one cares what she says or what she does. Banging on about misogyny, anti Semitism and all of the rest is just a useless diversion – mistakenly seen as a useful diversion by useless idiots who see themselves as useful idiots.
The UK is finished. It is a hopeless case and cannot now be saved, for there is nothing left to save. Most of what you see is a mirage. Jeremy Corbyn is an extremely dangerous person because he offers hope to all of those who have been so brutally shafted. In reality there is no hope to offer and all of those people taken in by this charlatan are going to be very angry indeed when they realize that he is just one more con man.
The very best that the UK can hope for is some form of civil war – that should tell you just how dire the position truly is.
I strongly agree with your post!
Loony for once I can 100% agree with you!
Corbyn is as you say a complete charlatan.
Where are you based Loony?
are you a Marxist, a nihilist or just a common or garden pessimist. ?
Ken Loach on ‘false’ anti-Semitism claims by Labour MPs
Some Labour MPs are making “absolute mischief” over claims of anti-Semitism in the party, in a bid to destabilise Jeremy Corbyn because of his backing for Palestinians, claims Ken Loach.
The film-maker was suspicious of the “false stories of anti-Semitism”, which had surfaced since Mr Corbyn became leader.
He told Daily Politics presenter Jo Coburn that: “All history is our common heritage to discuss and analyse. The founding of the state of Israel, for example, based on ethnic cleansing is there for us all to discuss.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41404925/ken-loach-on-false-anti-semitism-claims-by-labour-mps
Video 2,12 Generous of the BBC to give him that long.
Coburn, a member of the Ealing synagogue congregation incidentally, hectors and interrupts him frequently.
She also produced this. Ken got the better of her.
Loach brands Tories ‘consciously cruel’
One million food parcels were handed out by charities in 2016 says Ken Loach.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41400110/film-maker-ken-loach-on-conservatives-economic-record
Kuenssberg has interviewed Jeremy Corbyn,
In full: Jeremy Corbyn interview with Laura Kuenssberg
Watch the full interview with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg at the 2017 Labour Party conference.
Subjects covered included the the planned return of PFI contracts “in-house” and the party’s scenario-planning for any run on the pound if they get into power.
35m ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41404496/in-full-jeremy-corbyn-interview-with-laura-kuenssberg
I was at the meeting
It was organised by Jews for Jewish Labour supporters
In the context of the fact nobody can speak about Palestine without being called sntibsemtic and shut down , mike was saying in a very brief aside that all issues should be allowed to be talked about , the Holocaust was in a list of subjects .. he made no reference to Holocaust denial and there was absolutely no Holocaust discussion
The meeting was about the need for free debate in the face of the Friends of Israel rl promoting the rule change that would make. Criticism of the occupation more or less on a par with anti Semitism
The Holocaust story was a lie they put out and it was eagerly devoured by all journalists and repeated as fact
Depressing
Thank you. Was the meeting recorded? J
Craig, I’ve donated a second time and would urge everyone reading to give if they can. To lose your commentary on current events would be a tragedy.
Donated a few quid, sorry not to be more generous. Wish could give more, wish could do more. Expat with no vote in uk or anywhere else. But really want to support the fight for justice – against these grasping vampirish bastards.
Excellent piece. I disowned 38 degrees after that unfounded nonsense and even tried to start one of their own petitions to reinstate the petition to sack the lying Kuenssberg but, strangely, they refused to carry it! It is indeed pure propaganda on behalf of the BBC to suggest this so called need for a bodyguard and as yet, no one has seen Kevin Costner anywhere near her. Channel 4 news tonight, who I usually have a bit of time for and who are usually happy to call out bullshit when they see it, harassed Corbyn in their interview about this, anti-semitism and his support for the Madura presidency (not regime as the MSM would have us believe. You can trust less and less outlets these days so keep on keeping on Craig.
so how are the Zionists to which Craig wishes to deny a platform defined – is it anyone who supports the right of Israel to exist as supported by International Law even though they believe in a two state solution and do not accept and condemn the human rights abuses carried out by the IDF and the Israeli Government. if so more than happy to be banned.
I would have thought that as a Labour Party member you would be putting your weight behind the leader, not those who are trying to make him out to be opposed to Israeli aims.
The post was nothing to do with Corbyn but a comment on what Craig wrote about not giving a platform for Zionists.
What international law?
The ones that all those States who recognise Israel acknowledge – fortunately you and others here do not decide what laws may or may not be recognised.
This one?
http://www.voltairenet.org/article198079.html
” On24 September 2017, the Russian Defense Minister broadcast satellite images of US Special forces camping right in the centre of Daesh territory in Deir ez-Zor, a region in Syria.
These photographs challenge the version that the United States and its Kurdish allies are fighting the Islamic State. ”
Suggested headline: ?
Trump wearing leak-proof panties in his friend Israel’s back garden, caught by drone from above.
Special forces are known to enter ‘enemy’ territory to ‘paint’ targets with lasers to make the smart bombs smarter. Russia are trying to gull the naive who do not realise this. There will be Russian special forces behind enemy lines doing similar jobs.
Also Daesh control towns and road corridors, they have neither the manpower or the inclination to patrol every inch of desert interior. So camping there by special forces would not be that hard if they were inserted by helicopter.
Do you accept all propaganda so uncritically?
The SAS used to hide when behind enemy lines. The Yanks evidently don’t bother. Giyane was legitimately asking the question, when Da’ish was supported, and developed, by a close ally of the United States, who only later disowned it (in English-language media, not Arabic media) under official pressure.
That which produces verdicts which favour you but then you can ignore international law when it’s suits you especially when land grabbing.
Once again Res Diss I am taken aback by your simplistic perception and reading.
Zionism has morphed into that as conceived by Herzl which was for a Jewish state and not merely the “national home” to which the Balfour Declaration refers. Many of the Jewish faith to this day consider this corruption troublesome because it ignores the existence of the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.
The transformation to noncivil modern Zionism has been crystalised even petrified by US/UK/IS penetration of sovereign states by false and misleading conquest resulting in death, destruction, gross infant mortality and a complete breakdown of national autonomy.
In anyone’s understanding this vile anomaly must be renounced to retain national pride and human decency.
there was no reading of anything just a question to Craig as to how he defines Zionism.
I’m afraid that I find your view that Jews are entitled to a homeland but are not allowed the right to establish a state within that homeland almost by definition anti-Jew or anti Semitic or whatever is the current label of choice (anti Zionist?) . When the old Left used to talk about the right to self determination I don’t think that they used to run to the Balfour declaration as a basis for excluding Jews from having that right – which is of course why most of them at the time were supporters of the Zionist movement.
Exactly the same logic underpins the right of Palestinians to have their own state. When rights clash and coincide that is where negotiation, compromise and mutual respect need to play a part, rather than force, if there is to be a lasting resolution.
I’m afraid that I find your view that Jews are entitled to a homeland but are not allowed the right to establish a state within that homeland almost by definition anti-Jew or anti Semitic or whatever is the current label of choice (anti Zionist?)
No Res Diss I am defining the terms of the Balfour declaration which obviously you have not absorbed.
I’m afraid your arrogance is just hiding your ignorance regarding the Balfour declaration. The term “national home” used in the Balfour declaration was deliberately vague as to whether it meant a state or something else so as to avoid the issue. You can of course interpret it how you want depending on your prejudices.
Mark don’t give these types the air of publicity, as in evidence your perspicacious argument is retorted to by the usual tired, and empty attacks of antisemi……. that is followed by the soliloquy of jaw jaw and not war war. Despite the reality proving seventy years of a brutal application of the most heinous crimes against humanity and morality in the occupied lands of Palestine. The corruption of values on display is to the extent that there is a sense of entitlement; to be genuflected to by the rest of the world in the absence of which it only proves how rife antisemi….. is?
@ 7.51am today
‘Exactly the same logic underpins the right of Palestinians to have their own state.’
Q How can the Palestinians have their own state when the Occupiers have stolen their homes and land on which settlements have been built? Meanwhile the boots of the Occupiers are on the necks of the Palestinians.
Right of reply denied
No one has denied JLM a voice and they were able to join the debate in the floor of conference today. I think their position is dubious if the claim that they are funded by an Israeli Zionist institution is true, however.
Craig.
This is not fake news, it’s a publicity stunt for an un-known Israeli shill. I’d have thought you of all people, having walked open-eyed into the potentially expensive trap laid for you by Sky last time, would have learnt to avoid the snares of Israeli propagandists. You get drawn in by the offer of rational debate, only to find yourself spiked in a butterfly collection tray of the rare species, Greater anti-Zionist Whistleblowers. The lure in this case being that Peled appears to be criticising Israel.
No. Don’t go there. Don’t extend your delicate honey-probe into the fake titillation of an Israeli narcissicist/publicist. Don’t do it, and don’t draw your readers please into this most irrelevant of tittle-tattle.
Please.
“I am obliged to conclude that both the “anti-Semitic Corbynites” meme and the “misogynist Corbynites” meme are Fake News. They are Establishment media concoctions designed to protect the interests of the Establishment from political radicalism.”
I’d say these memes are designed to protect the Establishment from any criticism at all. Or, to put it another way, “radicalism” has now been recast to mean “any criticism at all”.
Georg, you make a powerful point. In addition we can see the use of delicate flower of victimhood being claimed by an establishment that has in my lifetime waged 30 years of continuous brutal war against Israel’s enemies, the Muslim populations and their wealthy governments of Iraq, Pakistan Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Lebanon Palestine.
Finger-in-mouth, I forget. Who is the arch-player of that victimhood game?
And now we have the utter shame of Cllr Warren Morgen leader (for now) of B&H council saying he would ban the Labour party from holding conferences in Brighton citing a dubious claim that there was antisemitism at meetings around the city, and even from the conference. I saw every submission from the rostrum today at conference. Several. mostly Jewish women urging the party that criticising Isreal’s apartheid system was not the same as antisemitism. I saw nothing that could be called antisemitic. What I saw was free speech. Both JLM and JVL voices were represented in an open and democratic debate.
Whenever Harman makes a political statement, it’s a calculated attempt to undermine Corbyn. Actually, she’s more subtle than some – Jess Phillips is as subtle as a punch – but still fairly obvious to most. It never ends. They’ll be playing the same game when – when, not if – he becomes PM. Sad really. It’s also a part of a bigger picture, where minority groups, feminists, and gay rights movements – aka, Identity Politics – are used to misdirect, and undermine genuine reformers. I’ve never though Corbyn was perfect; if he was a football manager, he’d be Arsene Wenger. But he’s clear-eyed about the many issues facing us, where Harman is basically just an idiot.
I wonder if Peled was merely talking about the causes of the holocaust, and the alleged involvement of Big Business in the rise of Nazism? Perfectly valid subject to discuss, I’d think.
off topic, hilarious interlude, or the new spirit of business? You only get it here…
Parking fees to moor a boat in the Broads. people spent loads of cash to hire a boat, they pay very high prices in the pubs along the Broads and now they have to add another few quid, £ 10, to park their boat overnight….
The Broads Authority has recently come under flak due to the unaccountable nature this wannabe national park has accrued, you have to be someone with connections to get appointed to the BA…. no elections here.
http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/parking-ticket-machine-on-broads-mooring-causes-stir-amongst-boaters-1-5211488
Read this log on a visit to Occupied Palestine at the beginning of the month. It’s bad there. What evil.
Deportations and Harassment of Irish Group Travelling to the West Bank
by Caoimhghin Ó Croidheáin / September 26th, 2017
A trip to Palestine resulted in deportations and harassment by security as the Israel authorities step up attempts to intimidate or frighten future travellers to the area. During our trip we experienced CS gas, checkpoints, apartheid in action and military harassment of Palestinians.
https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/09/deportations-and-harassment-of-irish-group-traveling-to-west-bank/
Now for a lighter moment – Corbyn takes aim at the Daily Mail
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/913020795877826560
[Mod: Deleted as link only presented without comment. Per posting rules: “Contribute. Contributions which are primarily just a link to somewhere else will be deleted. You can post links, but give us the benefit of your thoughts upon them.”]
Craig do you have an objection to links in comments. Earlier I posted to a link to a Guardian article that is relevant to this thread in that it links the kerfuffle over Peled’s statements to attempts to discredit Corbyn as an anti-semite. The comment seems to have vanished.