The media constantly pumps out the lie that there is a silent anti-independence majority in Catalonia, which is merely curiously invisible.
Consider this. The highest turnout ever at an election in Catalonia was the 74.9% in the 2015 Regional Election, with 4,130.196 people casting their vote. At Spanish general elections turnout is even lower, at 69%. A minimum of 25.1% of the population never vote at all. Of that 25% who do not vote, some will be dead, or moved away, but most are probably just not civilly engaged.
The trick of the pro-Spanish lobby is to boycott polls on Independence, and then claim that this minimum 25% of the electorate who never vote at all anyway, are anti-Independence and participating in the boycott. In truth there are absolutely no grounds to attribute the minimum 25% habitual non-voters as anti-independence. Particularly the dead ones.
So in fact the 2,044,038 votes cast in favour of Independence on Sunday, that survived the police and could be counted, already amounted to 49.6% of the highest number of votes ever cast in any election in Catalonia. When you add in the hundreds of thousands of votes confiscated by the police, and the voters who were deterred by the terrible violence, there is no doubt whatsoever that Sunday’s referendum would have seen a healthy majority for Independence on any probable turnout figure.
So that is the answer on the “pro-Spanish silent majority”. Many of them are very silent indeed, being dead but still on the register. Most of the others have never voted in their lives. The trick of claiming all non-voters as No voters is, frankly, pathetic. It says a huge amount about the corruption of the corporate media, and in the UK especially the BBC, that they have been pumping out this ridiculous “silent majority” narrative without ever analysing the figures realistically.
Why is the pro-Spanish majority so silent? Because it is a fiction. The very existence of the pro-Independence majority in the Catalan parliament is evidence of that fact. At the Catalan parliamentary elections, pro-Independence parties got 48% and anti-Independence parties got 39%. The other 13% went to parties which are agnostic or divided on the issue. But your career in the mainstream media is dependent on failing to notice such inconvenient fact.
————————————————————-
I continue urgently to need contributions to my defence in the libel action against me by Jake Wallis Simons, Associate Editor of Daily Mail online. You can see the court documents outlining the case here. I am threatened with bankruptcy and the end of this blog (not to mention a terrible effect on my young family). Support is greatly appreciated. An astonishing 4,000 people have now contributed a total of over £75,000. But that is still only halfway towards the £140,000 target. I realise it is astonishing that so much money can be needed, but that is the pernicious effect of England’s draconian libel laws, as explained here.
On a practical point, a number of people have said they are not members of Paypal so could not donate. After clicking on “Donate”, just below and left of the “Log In” button is a small “continue” link which enables you to donate by card without logging in.
For those who prefer not to pay online, you can send a cheque made out to me to Craig Murray, 89/14 Holyrood Road, Edinburgh, EH8 8BA. As regular readers know, it is a matter of pride to me that I never hide my address.
The root of this question is if a referendum is the best way to solve a problem that is felt as it for a main part of Catalans. UK showed to the world the way to solve this kind of matters in the Scotland case, Scotland voted and now we know truly that UK is a country built by the will of their citizens, not by a imposed decision. Only freedom can be the basis of a open society.
The U.K. is a mature ‘democracy’ unlike Spain. This means it has perfected the means of getting the result it wants. Scotland was cajoled and intimidated into voting to remain part of the U.K. on a tissue of lies, threats, and false promises which are quickly unravelling. In Spain, Madrid is just more naked and crude in its imperialism.
‘The UK is a mature democracy unlike Spain.
HAHAAAAAA haahahhaaaahahahaaaaaa,great joke thank you MBC
Its a kleptomaniac establishment clique moving their puppets about, fearful of anybody with principles to dare and get into power, cheating and gerrymandering as much as they can get away with, shame on you.
I thank the British allied forces whom introduced a proportional AMS into Germany. Then there is the great example of the Irish who us a proportional STV system. We also use STV to choose leaders of parties here, hallo Jeremy, they would not be contempt with the FPTP shambles.
Nothing will change here until you ‘allow’ the great unwashed politically uneducated masses to to vote failry and proportionally.
The UK have killed dozens of demonstrators in Belfast who were behaving peacefully in the streets.
I am totally on support of the Scottish solution and I think that it will be implemented in Catalonia in the future, it is just a matter of time. But if we check history the UK and the big countries in general only supported their own interests. They were against the referendum in Crimea but they supported the Referendums in Yugoslavia, They supported the Referendums in the former USSR Republics but they don’t support it in Kurdistan.
Britain isn’t a democracy and has never been one.
Ah, the ‘Purest Democracy’ debate – I’ll get m’pipe.
Its all very romantic to call for independence without having some sort of plan and it comes down to economics. The SNP were caught out in by some of the assumptions they made regards finances. The Brexit brigade appears to have no plan at all that is economically literate. As for Catalonia, it has amassed one of the largest public debts of Spain’s regions, at roughly 72.2 billion euros ($86.9 billion) in 2016. They have had to depend on Madrid to act as guarantor as no institution has been prepared to lend directly to them due to the massive deficit.
But note, our attempt to escape in Scotland has been halted, whilst Brexit, which we definitely didn’t vote for, is going on anyway. We were promised in 2014 that the only way to remain in the EU was as part of the U.K. and this was decisive for quite a few. That didn’t work out well, did it? The 2014 vote is no longer valid.
Aah, project fear. Yes, those are the arguments you can put forward in debate. Then let people vote on whether they believe you or not. There is a name for not allowing people to vote because you know better.
There are two ideas in that comment:
1) People should have the write to vote, which you are totally right in my opinion. There is no doubt that the referendum in Catalonia should have been done without problems, just like it was done in 2015 showing a similar turn out and results. People in the rest of Europe forgets that we had in Catalonia a referendum that was not accepted but was not repressed by Madrid either.
2) People should have the right to secession. The truth is that in this case nobody agrees. The United Nations secretary general Ban Ki Moon specifically stated that Catalonia have not the right to secede because Self determination right is only applied to colonies just like United Nations rules state.
The right of Secession is a complicated one because nobody agrees on how many times could it be applied: Could a region vote every 5 years to secede? Every 10? every 3? Then nobody agrees in what is the minimum amount of territory that could apply secession. The town of Seborga voted for Secession and its residents voted to split from Italy, which Italy didn’t respect. Then nobody agrees in what should be the Minimum amount of people who should vote for independence to be accepted, in some referendums it was 55% like Montenegro, in others like Saint Kitts and Nevis it was 60% minimum, in Scotland was 50%.
If secession is a right and not accepting secession as a result of a referendum means the country is not a democracy then there are almost no democracies around the world, in fact even Denmark didn’t respect the referendum results in Faroe Islands where over 50% of citizens voted to split.
In my opinion Secession as a consequence of a referendum should be applied to solve a problem that can’t be solved any other way. I am sure that in the future we will have a referendum that leads to secession in the future.
Sean, would a plan to leave a sinking ship be sufficient? Currently, the economic risks associated with staying in the union appear to be much riskier than those associated with independence – particularly when we’ve no control over Teresa et al. Also, from my experience, all the romance is the unionists’ love of Britannia and days of old.
Agreed, we should leave the sinking ship
of the European Union.
But where’s the romance, Freddy? A lifeboat with no bottom?
Interesting views here but once the UK leaves the EU and Scotland is still attached to the UK, the voices here won’t matter one way or the other.
It seems too the whole BritEstablishment commentariat haven’t realised that.
Ending on a lighter note: here is Serrat’s – an exile, the icon of Catalan resistance to the Franco regime – legendary album “Meditarraneo”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcl0MELK4j4
Serrat has asked the pro independence movement not to use the first track, “Meditarraneo” at their rallies, as they were doing…
He rejected the referendum because it wasn’t “transparent”.
He was called a “fascista” for doing so. Serrat, a fascista? I mean, it’s increidble.
Isabel Coixet too. What, Isabel Coixet who directed “The Secret Life of Words” and “My Life Without Me”. What, THAT Isabel Coixet?
How could anybody call Serrat or Isabel Coixet a fascist?
Because there is a lot of bad blood in the air, much more so after last Sunday, and much, much more to come…
Yes the man who brought to life Miguel Hernández;s “Nanas de cebolla” is called a “fascista” , by those following a right-wing, institutionally corrupt Carles Puigdemont and his party PDeCAT. Talk about historical amnesia and cultural ignorance at its worst. Cheered on by the online peanut gallery in the UK. Lord have mercy!
Nanas de la cebolla – Joan Manuel Serrat – A su Aire – 1984
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6kTQVsW0Js
You said it….
Huge turn out in Edinburgh today in support for our friends in Catalonia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidJFHalliday/status/916675730385272832
Director of the French Chamber of Commerce in Barcelona “There’s no reason to move companies’ headquarters” out of Catalonia.
“One judge will investigate the Spanish police for beating people up in 26 schools. 16 judges will investigate the Catalan police for refusing to do it.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeKerevan?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
George Kerevan, Ivan McKee, and several others spoke at the rally in support of Catalan’s right to self determination, in Edinburgh today.
Good turnout. So they got out of those armchairs to prove Douglas Stuart Wilson wrong.
A very touching letter from one Catalan resident, who along with the rest of their family were beaten, bruised left with open wounds, and cut with a sharp object that the fascist paramilitary Guardia Civil thug had in his hand.
The letter is addressd to (8U5) the fascist thugs recognition code number.
Here’s a taster.
“You took your baton out. You wound the strap very slowly around your wrist and told me to get back.”
“You were smiling and insulting me under your breath, just like you had done with my daughter when you dragged her across the ground by her hair. Your smile is probably the same one you have when you kiss your mother’s forehead or your girlfriend’s lips.”
” What I do know about you is your strength when you hit a defenseless person with your baton, just like you did to me all those times. You did it well, with great precision: my back, backside and arm are full of bruises and I have an open wound on one shoulder. You scratched me with something sharp that you had in your hand when I tried to protect myself. ”
http://m.ara.cat/en/antoni-vives-letter-to-policeman-and-felipe-VI_0_1882611851.html
“You did well, enjoying your job. You told me so, don’t you remember? I asked you whether you liked hitting defenseless people and you told me that you would hit our kind over and over again. ”
The physical scars may be healing slowly for those who tried to vote, and for those who did vote for self determination on Sunday.
However the psychological scars, may never really heal.
Off Topic
trouble in London
Natural History Museum crash ‘not terror-related’
The BBC taking the ‘unity’ line on this.
The Unity Mitford line more like.
Mini Cab
but is the person driving a mini cab driver
or someone who forcedthe real driver out, to use the cab for ramming people?
No cab driver is going to run people down on purpose, surely.
Dozens of armed officers converged on the scene as search dogs patrolled the area.
Probably an Uber driver protesting.
Remember the Berlin Christmas killings, the real driver had been kidnapped/killed
and a nutter took his lorry to run Christians over.
freddy
Sorry, but you’ve replied to my comment which was about the Catalan situation and not the museum incident. The comments sections is confusing enough already amigo!
Poll shows a 12 point gain to Lab over SNP. Ouch.
That is the poll for the list voting intentions for Holyrood. The SNP are 17% ahead of both Labour and the Tories in the constituency voting intentions. And the 12 point gain in the list vote is not from the last Yougov poll but from the actual elections in May 2016.
The SNP are 18 months into the term and are therefore in the famous ‘government in mid-term’ phase. Also bear in mind that the SNP are not only in mid-term in the current parliament but have been in office for 10 and a half years. Yet they’re still well ahead in the constituency and list voting intentions. Especially well ahead in the more important constituency poll. That far ahead despite the incessant BBC and MSM smear tactics.
So not ouch really but an encouraging poll for the SNP.
That’s spot on reel guid.
It’s the list intention. We are 17 points ahead on the FPTP. Those figures would give us 66 seats.
The FPTP also shows Tories dropping.
Neil Oliver not wanted by a huge margin of the public at NTS.
http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/polls/poll-should-neil-oliver-have-been-appointed-president-of-the-national-trust/#poll-327
And he thought he was going to Coast it.
Ah..nice one. ?
Can’t comment, RoS, as I’m no longer a member – cancelled last week. NTS emailed me to say Neil’s efforts were “fantastic”, but I had to agree to differ.
So, this article contains a couple of videos from one of the pro Spain rallies today, in Palma de Mallorca…
http://www.eldiario.es/politica/personas-manifiestan-Palma-unidad-Espana_0_694680815.html
A group of pro Spain nationalists with one brain cell between them attack a pro Catalan indie stand which bears the sign SPAIN ROBS US…
How “progressive” and intelligent a slogan is that? Your romantic, freedom fighting Catalans are primarily pissed off, Murray, because they pay in more than they get back out. They subsidize regions like, say, Extremadura… they want to keep their cash for themselves…
….there was me thinking that any socialist would deplore that attitude…
A woman calls one of the pro Spain thugs a fascist, and the guy bricks her…
THAT is what is going to happen all over Spain in the coming months and weeks if Puigdemont goes ahead with UDI….in fact, it’s going to happen anyway….
A fucking disaster, Craig Murray, and we don’t need the Scots adding fuel to the fire…this thing is going to bring out the worst instincts in the worst Spaniards…
I can’t watch the videos but from the pictures it looks a lot like Spanish police protecting Catalonians so they can say things about the Spanish police.
Here you go Fred.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/916697067908628480/video/1
They remind me of the other fascists, in George Sq, on the night of the Scottish indyref, you know the ones giving the Nazi salute. Only instead of singing Cara al Sol, they sang Rule Britannia.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/gsv511.jpg
Most polls in Catalonia show an almost 50% vs 50% split, the last survey on the matter showed a narrow pro independence majority.
Having said all that, as a Catalan and Catalan speaker myself I am very afraid of this process, Europe started the last 3 centuries with macro historical events in Spain: XVII century, The Spanish succession civil war which ended in an all against all continental war with all major countries involved and with the destruction of Spain. The XIX century with the Napoleonic invasion of Spain which shocked Europe and ended up with hundreds of thousand of dead people, and the creation of modern massive Guerrilla tactics. And the XX century with the Spanish civil war which ended being a major factor for Nazis to decide start the Second World War.
I don’t want that a “Yugoslavian” solution is implemented in Spain, I don’t want a total implosion of my country and hundreds of dead people in the street. Call me selfish, but if I have to chose between the philosophical right of us to have a different passport and the huge amount of problems that I could see, I rather prefer continue being an Spaniard.
Having said all that, I am of the opinion that we will be independent in the near future, I would be surprised if we are not independent before 20 years.
It was already predicted quite a while ago by futurologists that the nation states of Europe would break up, and be replaced by regional units, all under the aegis of the EU. I’m not sure I’m convinced, but Catalonia (and Scotland) sure look like they’re on that road. European Super State, anyone?
Perhaps more politely expressed, Federated States of Europe.
The Federated States of Europe behaves to the Middle East in exactly the same way as the Federated States of the US behaves to South America. i.e. no need to give examples.
The Federated States of Europe also treats its own citizens who its main driver Germany sees as morally, ethically and possibly racially inferior in exactly the same way as the Federated States of the US treats black people. i.e. no need to give examples.
The US has created the EU in its own image. from this point of view I’m glad I voted for the UK to leave for the simple reason of Germany’s involvement in the crushing of Syria. The UK has quite a lot in common with Eastern cultures, reserve, morality and self-discipline. David Cameron seemed to instinctively understand this. the Thatcherite experiment of everybody relentlessly putting themselves first is only really liked by the would-be arseholes of the Tory party strutting their stuff at last week’s party Conference.
There is another way, even if it involves us putting up with a historical love-affair between Germany and the US both trying to enforce raw power by interventionary force, but the course of true love never did run smooth. Our UK sensibilities have much more in common with Chinese and other Far Eastern cultures than with our immediate neighbours or the descendants of the Pilgrim Fathers. Now that the US and EU are in bed together, why don’t we and China get engaged?
The point of my remark was to provoke. But Britain and China? The Chinese are intestinal.. They are only interested in themselves and what they can export. But also steal what technology that they can. That’s why the British university outposts in Pekin..
Giyane
I am surprised by your post. The tories are very deeply in bed with the US and the special relationship has always been paramount to the UK and part of the reason for Brexit is for the UK to get even closer to the US. Have you not noticed that the arch atlanticist Fox is in charge of international trade, wishing to import chlorine washed chicken and hormone beefed up cattle (sorry for the pun) from the States? The relationship between at least the tories and the east is purely an orientalist approach. You seem to praise Cameron who was one of the architects of the destruction of Libya and also in part, of Syria. You seem to ignore that recently Boris made some crass comments which not only insulted the dead but shows that the underlying interest of Britain in Libya is for the vulture capitalist businessmen to convert Sirte to another sheikhdom for the benefit of his mates.
The whole history of British involvement in the middle east has been that of exploitation and plunder. Have you forgotten Suez, the coup against Mossadeq in 1953, the Balfour declarations, the fragmentation of the gulf and Kuwait into pliant kingdoms and Sheikhdoms? I could go on and on but I think Europe is more likely to moderate the actions of the US empire than UK under the Tories will. At least Germany and France stood against the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Laguerre
Considering that the British tried to destroy China with opium, I think the Chinese can be forgiven for re-charging their civilisation with some borrowed knowledge. What goes around comes around. There is a massive drug problem in the US and in Saudi Arabia.
There is also a massive population problem in the UK because nice English boys can’t hack their feminist female counterparts.
The UK establishment only seems interested in doing what is worst for the UK and best for controlling our spirit. as the Qur’an says, We did not oppress them, but rather they oppressed themselves. The establishment has created a short-term solution to manufacturing by importing from the Far East, but we will end up without any kind of skills or manufacturing base. After which China has us in their pocket, puffing opium like the yanks.
SA
Firstly I believe that Boris Johnson’s comment about Sirte was directed against US policy to destroy all Muslim countries, a policy which he is obliged to follow in order to keep his place.
Secondly I believe that Cameron who was similarly shackled to US policy in his attack on Libya and Syria, used Brexit to Houdini himself out of those shackles before he became foaming mad like Blair. Being a rich man , he wasn’t tempted by the lure of cash.
Thirdly, I believe that UK business leaders are prepared to take a chance of losing any trade deal with Europe, for the sake of negotiating their own deal with China etc outside the clutches of the US and its satellite the EU.
It’s important if you’re going to have a capitalist system that it serves the interests of your own people, not just the interests of the US. The US wants the whole world to be subjugated to its hegemony , including us. So no, I don’t see our elite in bed with the US. I see them as servants emptying the bed pan and bringing morning tea for the US, and they are therefore all the more determined to sacrifice all the benefits of the EU , free movement, free trade, joint defence, in order to be able to escape from the clutches of the US.
giyane
Chinese habits and practises in international trade go back a lot further than the Opium wars, like 2000 years or more. The Chinese are not particularly sensitive about what we Brits did to them, as far as I know. It’s different from Iran, where they are extremely sensitive about what Britain did, as we ran the south of the country as a virtual colony for more than a century, and then joined with the Americans in the coup which put the Shah in, putting a halt to democracy.
giyane
“Firstly I believe that Boris Johnson’s comment about Sirte was directed against US policy to destroy all Muslim countries, a policy which he is obliged to follow in order to keep his place.”
Really? What evidence have you got for that?
“Secondly I believe that Cameron who was similarly shackled to US policy in his attack on Libya and Syria, used Brexit to Houdini himself out of those shackles before he became foaming mad like Blair. Being a rich man , he wasn’t tempted by the lure of cash.”
Not a very successful Houdini act as he was pro remain. Brexit was accidental and unexpected by the establishment.
“Thirdly, I believe that UK business leaders are prepared to take a chance of losing any trade deal with Europe, for the sake of negotiating their own deal with China etc outside the clutches of the US and its satellite the EU.”
You talk as if UK business is a monolithic structure. In fact many businesses are not in favour of brexit.
“It’s important if you’re going to have a capitalist system that it serves the interests of your own people,….”
Come one, do you really believe that a capitalist system is designed to serve the interests of its people? Capitalism is interested only in that people remain obedient cheap workers and good consumers.
“….not just the interests of the US. The US wants the whole world to be subjugated to its hegemony , including us. So no, I don’t see our elite in bed with the US. I see them as servants emptying the bed pan and bringing morning tea for the US, and they are therefore all the more determined to sacrifice all the benefits of the EU , free movement, free trade, joint defence, in order to be able to escape from the clutches of the US.”
Brexit is much more likely to throw us wholeheartedly into the clutches of the US and we will be too weak to fight back.
SA
My evidence for Boris opposing the US is that his technique for opposition is humour.
He was repeating the Foreign Office’s idiotic program of destroying Libya by brutal force and proxy jihadists , followed by intervention. He was kicking his own stuffed shirts in his own brief, for imagining that you can first utterly destroy a country and terrorise its inhabitants and then just breeze in and take back over again.
As the Baghdad political analyst once said to a US political analyst on Iraqi TV,” You can’t even send one of your soldiers outside the Green Zone to buy one sandwich from down town Baghdad. Boris is in charge of these lunatics and its his job to lick some sense into their pompous selves. Humour is the only solution.
Of course the a***-l*****s in Libya want the West to come in and put the country right again, but in the real world it ain’t going to happen, Proxy jihadists is a fool’s game.
One thing I will say, though in commemoration of Mam Jalal who is reported to have died in Kurdistan. Unlike Barzani who took the opportunity of power to line his families pockets from the oil wealth of Kurdistan, Mam Jalal took himself to the USUKIS-blighted capital Baghdad, to continue selflessly to serve the whole Iraqi people, including himself with them, rather than against them, . A sacrifice rarely found amongst modern politicians.
Choi Afika. May God forgive him.
No No No
This is not humour. This is sick.
giyane, I am beginning to think that you hanker after the days of the benign empire when the British benignly set out ti civilise those Africans and pikininis.
SA
You should have gone to specsavers if you began to think that. But most people on this blog don’t do irony unless you spell it out in monosyllables. Sad.
An interesting take from an inhabitant – there’s more to this than meets the eye.
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/10/07/guest-post-catalunya-in-chaos/
Thanks for that. There are always two sides to the story and I think outsiders should not take sides without knowing all the underlying currents and the dust has settled. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Quite a few Scotch nats here trying to graft the Catalan situation onto their own (lost) cause.*
The main difference is that Scotland had a free and fair referendum on independence under the most favourable circumstances imaginable and the Scotch bats lost that vote decisively.
Other differences include Catalonia being a wealthy region that subsidises the rest of Spain…
(*Please don’t start about media bias. A proud and independent people will vote for their independence whatever. Like we did in the Brexit vote 🙂
The vote itself was relatively free in Scotland (though ballot boxes mysteriously went missing in Dundee where there was a strong Yes vote, and second home owners not resident in Scotland and favouring a No vote also voted illegally) but the government unleashed a propaganda campaign to lie to voters and to play to fear. No-one has yet accepted responsibility for the famous Vow which appeared on the front page of the Daily Record a few days before the vote after opinion polls suggested Yes might win. This contained the signatures of David Cameron and all other U.K. leaders yet was neither disowned nor supported by them in the aftermath but The Vow, promising all sorts to Scots if they remained, was influential in securing the result the government wanted.
So funny to read Craig arguing for distinct peoples with their own culture, language and identity. In any other circumstance he’d call that racism.
Where ever we are looking this weekend the world is in a crisis, poor people are doing the dying and children grow up fast in refugee camps, if they survive the Cholera or the other diseases, in Yemen, many places in Africa, and in Bangladesh, overwhelmed with refugees fleeing from Myanmar, now controlled by a blood thirsty military with a convenient fall woman to face the rap.
a harrowing video, I wasn’t prepared for the suffering that is being put on these people, it puts Catalunya into perspective.
Thanks labougie for the link to Jacks account, its time to talk, most definitely. Although Trump is berating his foreign minister for doing so, he wants to make his mark in life by threatening all of ours, fool.
http://www.spiegel.de/video/bangladesch-drohnenvideo-zeigt-rohingya-camp-video-1804641.html
Wow..Amazing wee Film Thank you Nevermind
And writing like that…is why we Rock.. And Dance… Cos ya Got to….Gtreat Stuff Nevermind
Wouldn’t you be in favour of a legal referendum in Catalonia with guarantees of legitimacy, following a process of dialogue, with international observers safeguarding the process? Shouldn’t a referendum from its initial proposal till its completion follow the code of good practice on referendums by the Venice Commission?
It seems fruitless that both sides fight with whichever doubtful numbers and percentages they want to win the debate over last Sunday’s referendum’s outcome in Catalonia, given that it was not a legal referendum and could not be carried out in safe conditions for the citizens.
The focus should be on promoting dialogue between both parties, and in my view this dialogue should also aim to find a consensus to propose an agreed-upon legal referendum in Catalonia.
Last 1-O referendum is a symbolic act that was powerful in revealing two contrasting sides involved in the current political conflict. But numbers and percentages are easily miscalculated and manipulated, unless there is a mechanism in place to enforce rigour, and there was not one, there could not be one (because it was not allowed by law).
That is why there cannot be a clear, rigorous and objective conclusion (yet) on whether the majority of the Catalan citizens are *for or against* the unilateral independence declaration.
Without dialogue we cannot move forward, but each day makes it unfortunately clearer that the necessary dialogue between all involved parties will not come.
Yeah, everyone’s in favour of all that.
Obviously.
Problem is there’s fascists involved and they don’t do reading, talking and discussion and stuff.
No.
They just like to pose.
Menacingly.
In Hugo Boss leather specials.
I’m sure all those Guardia Civil are gay.
Like the Nazis.
A performance.
Art.
Why are you sure “all those Guardia Civil are gay”?
And if they are, why do you feel that’s relevant to what’s happened?
Looks like as the window opens for Catalonia, a window is closing for Scotland.
Quote
Yesterday the SNP’s Westminster leader, Ian Blackford joined the growing number of senior voices within the SNP calling on Sturgeon to postpone any consideration of indyref2 until after 2020, beyond the next set of elections. Blackford warned that setting a target date for a second independence referendum was “putting the cart before the horse”.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/snp-s-strong-and-stable-message-pushes-indyref2-to-the-margins-1-4581080
Timing Freddy.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland/sturgeon-says-timing-of-scottish-independence-vote-on-hold-until-brexit-clearer-idUSKBN1CD0B2
So let’s guess, in two or three years the U.K.
has left the E.U.
No longer in Single Market
No longer under the jackboot of the Euro Court
would Nicola then hold Indyref2 ?
Not quite in my opinion, I think indyref 2 could happen at the end of the Brexit negotiations say 2019. By then we will have a clear idea of the severity of the damage, that will be inflicted on the economy, amongst other things.
What if the E.U. refuse to negotiate
as Frau Merkel and President Macron wish.
The U.K. then decides to stop wasting effort
and walk away.
At that point
would Nicola call Indyref2 ?
As for Brexit,
Sturgeon said in a recent interview that
” It was becoming more difficult to resist the logic of a second referendum.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41538311
I understand that earlier this year Nicola was calling for Indyref2
perhaps I have misunderstood her?
“What if the E.U. refuse to negotiate
as Frau Merkel and President Macron wish.”
Well according to press reports both France and Germany, have strongly intimated that they won’t get into trade negotiations until the Divorce bill is settled.
The second question you pose is supposition, we’ve got until 2019, I’m reasonably sure some sort of deal will be thrashd out.
However I’m also pretty sure that, by 2019 the Scottish government will have a fairly clear picture of the damage, and adjust the indyref accordingly.
A report on Sky News.
SNP conference gets under way amid ‘tinderbox of possibility’
Scottish independence is not on the agenda for debate, but talk of a second referendum is the ongoing discussion in party circles.
http://news.sky.com/story/snp-conference-gets-under-way-amid-tinderbox-of-possibility-11071946
It was the opposite of impartiality, filmed in an empty derelict building. Get it?
How stupid and how patently transparent as to their motives.
El Pais saying that Rajoy faces the most serious situation in the history of Spanish democracy.
The fools don’t realise that Spanish democracy already now is history. And it’s going to remain historic if Catalans are going to be repressed Franco style and kept from freely choosing.
“Congratulations to the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons on well-deserved Nobel Peace Prize award.”
Says Jeremy Corbyn, a bit of hypocrisy going on there I think.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/916338731958898689
Considering he’s the leader of the Labour party, a party that voted to renew Trident.
If I recall correctly SLAB voted with the SNP against Trident, but the London head office over ruled them.
Also rather peculiarly in my opinion, if Corbyn believes strongly in multilateral nuclear disarmament. How on earth does he expect to convince other nations to disarm, when his party backs the renewal of WMD’s at home.
Ros
Yes it’s a case of Scotland doesn’t want these weapons housed in our country. But both the blue and red colonial masters at Westminster dictate that they will be.
That’s what happens when you’re a colony. Ask the Chaggosians. In Scotland though we have the more unusual colonial trick played on us that we’re equal partners in a union. It’s not a democratic union. It’s a colonial setup disguised as a democratic union. Except the disguise has become very obvious now.
@ Republicofscotland October 8, 2017 at 11:16
There is no doubt JC was and is against renewing Trident, but the majority of his MP’s were not, as well as some Unions.
It is not hypocrisy, He either voted against, or was absent.
Nuclear weapons are not the only game in town; he would be a fool to fall on his sword over it.
If and when the tide of Labour voting can be swung, he will again go for a scaling-down of Trident.
I am absolutely convinced that whatever Britain does, other nations will not dump their nukes.
With Marshall Law across the Channel and across the Bay of Biscay, I think he has more urgent problems, as do we.
It’s easy to say that Trident is not an urgent problem. It is to people in Central Scotland. Its safety record is bad and the colonial masters at Westminster are covering it up.
@ reel guid October 8, 2017 at 12:41
All nuke installations or contraptions leak, but it would not do anyone the slightest bit of good if JC ‘fell on his sword’ over it.
We all would lose an excellent PM in waiting, and Trident would still be there.
Paul.
I wholeheartedly agree, on the point that Jeremy Corbyn is strongly opposed to nuclear weapons.
However he’ll never get a better chance to make a impact on the Labour party than now as its leader. Abstentions on such matters when voting do not help his cause one little bit. To the publics eye it looks very much like hypocrisy.
It could be that the unions are imposing their idea of backing Trident on Labour. With jobs being at stake, however, if you declare your position on Trident, and it happens to be you vehemently oppose such weapons, then you must at all times practice what you preach, or the public will find you out eventually.
Alas I doubt very much Corbyn will change the deep Blairite thinking, that haunts the Labour party.
@ Republicofscotland October 8, 2017 at 12:47
‘..However he’ll never get a better chance to make a impact on the Labour party than now as its leader….’
He’ll be in a lot stronger position as PM, with a bunch of Blairites deselected!.
We’ll see, or maybe we won’t see, depending on whether or not Corbyn does, or does not become PM.
There’s another big problem for Jeremy in even managing to get into government, which has been largely overlooked. It’s to with population age distribution.
62% of Brazilians are under the age of 30.
Half the population of India is under 25.
Around two thirds of South Africans are under the age of 35.
40% of the people of sub-Saharan Africa are under the age of 15.
The populations of Western Europe and North America are aging.
Only 30% of the UK population is under 25.
Corbyn may have relied on young middle class people to win him his two leadership elections and give him his election campaign crowds. That doesn’t mean that the numbers stack up when it comes winning a general election. A big reason why Labour fell several dozen seats short even when the Tories ran the worst campaign ever. Those OAPs just can’t help voting Tory.
In Scotland we are very aware how age demographics won the referendum in 2014 for No. If Scotland had the same age distribution as there is in the developing world then Yes would have walked it.
So Jeremy might well be stopped by a combination of Werther’s Originals and Countdown. Ironic, since he’s getting into that age group himself.
Latest opinion poll
Labour 42%
Conservatives 40%
Many OAPs were disappointed by the dementia tax and realised that the tories were really not going to look after them in thier old age.
Incidentally many older people also rejoined the labour party when Corbyn was elected, having previously resigned because of the Iraq war.
It is really no good for Scottish nationalists to keep attacking Corbyn, it does no good for your cause if the net result is that we have an even stronger Tory comeback.
Norway land of the peace prize.Hypocrisy everywhere
In 2006, BAE Systems was excluded from the portfolio of the government pension fund of Norway “because they develop and/or produce central components for nuclear weapons”.
However, Norway has bound their strategic defence to the UK’s “since Napoleonic times”, including both protection under the British nuclear deterrent
‘Spain Prepares Military Crackdown In Catalonia’:
http://www.countercurrents.org/2017/10/06/spain-prepares-military-crackdown-in-catalonia/
Rajoy refuses negotiation, King Felipe VI wades in: ‘..After King Felipe VI declared in a bellicose speech Tuesday that Catalan nationalists had placed themselves outside the law and democracy, Cospedal (Spanish Defence Minister) added, “Everything that is located outside of democracy is a threat to our nation.”
Yes Paul, it’s beginning to look ominous if Rajoy’s comments are anything to go by. Rajoy point blankly refuses to enter into any form of negotiations with the Catalan government.
Rajoy added that a Catalan declaration of independence wil have absolutely no effect, and that the regions autonomy will be suspended.
I can see Rajoy invoking Article 155 of Spain’s constitution, and if last Sunday’s horrendous violence against a peaceful voting region is anything to go by, we’re set for some very, very ugly scenes in Catalonia early next week.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41540994
Of course for Rajoy to speak so openly and confidently of such matters, must surely mean he has spoken with other EU leaders, who in my opinion have shall we say, reluctantly given him consent on the matter.
If the Spanish government suspends democracy in Catalonia then it’s an effective suspension of democracy in the rest of Spain also. You can’t run a democracy with one part of the country being oppressed. So therefore the government has a binary choice to equalize the situation. Either restore democracy to the oppressed area or suspend democracy in all parts. That’s the prospect the people of Spain are facing and it looks like not enough of them outside of Catalonia realise it yet.
Next Spanish general election not due until 2020 so everyone will by then have got up to speed and be able vote on their suspended democracy.
@ MJ October 8, 2017 at 12:32
Two or three years is a long time under Marshall Law.
I think FRANCE
has been under Marshall law for two years and under two presidents.
Who is Marshall Law? Does he require martial law to achieve his ends?
@ MJ October 8, 2017 at 13:32
OK, getting old.
MJ.
Very pedantic, I’m pretty sure you knew exactly what Paul meant.
It was the way it got carried over from one post to another that interested me.
Who gives a Marshal Foch?
First of all, you should all consider and realise that a significant part of Spanish and Catalan society are AGAINST Rajoy’s right-wing dangerous politics, against violence by Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil ( and by the Mossos, as happened many times in the recent years). But also you should realise that the Puigdemont does not have mandate to pull the unilateral independency, the way the “referendum” was approved in the Catalan Parliament was a laugh, to say the least. 90% of pro-independency vote OUT of around 42% of voters is 37%. Would we have Brexit with a 37% of voters supporting it?
We need that both irrational parties sit down and talk, use mediation (I know Rajoy does not allow it but we DO NEED MEDIATION to get out of this crazy pathway).
There cannot be only two solutions: (A) a unitary Spain based on an old-fashioned model for Spain and the old constitution that does not allow for pluralism and (B) an independent state in Catalonia.
The Spanish left has been arguing for the promotion of a federal state, a change in the constitution, and even the proposal of a LEGAL referendum in Catalonia. A federal state in Spain, and a Republic would be a fantastic thing to fight for (politically speaking).
It is hard to see how people now are polarised and only see the “casta-driven” Spanish nationalism and “right-wing neoliberal” version of the Catalan nationalism as options, but, hey, you know what? We have brilliant minds, academics, scholars, polititians in Spain who have been arguing for the development of a republican federal state. If in that case, still Catalonia wants to be independent (and they should have the right to vote for that), then that is their right.
But we in general need to strive for a better Spanish model of state.
Meanwhile Alex Salmond could breathe live into a dying Britnat rag newspaper that’s frankly become a joke in Scotland.
Salmond and a consortium are pondering a bid to buy the Scotsman newspaper. Currently the Scotsman’s sales figures are abysmal, possibily due to its appalling reporting on a plethora of matters.
Johnston Press bought Scotsman Publications in 2005 for £160 million and since then the titles have been written down to virtually nil. The whole group, consisting of 200 papers, is now worth just £17.5m. Making the Scotsman even more insignificant.
Johnson Press, which publishes many unionist rags under the guise of regional newspapers is financially not as sound as it once was. I can’t say I’m surprised.
https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2017/10/salmond-in-consortium-bid-for-scotsman/
Ros
The Scotsman a newspaper? I thought it was a comic for North Britons.
Brings a whole new meaning to ‘Dia de Muertos’.
Where have all the tourists gone, long time passing?
Where have all the tourists gone, long time ago?
Where have all the tourists gone?
Gone to Portugal, Italy, Greece everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the tourists gone, long time passing?
Where have all the tourists gone, long time ago?
Where have all the tourists gone?
Gone elsewhere everyone.
Oh, when will Fascists ever learn?
Oh, when will Fascists ever learn?
Franco’s body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
Franco’s body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
But his crimes go marching on.
He’s gone to be a soldier in the Army of Old Nick,
He’s gone to be a soldier in the Army of Old Nick,
And his crimes go marching on.
Franco died about 45 years too late,
Franco died about 45 years too late,
But his soulmate Rajoy goes marching on.
OT
SNP Conference live. BBC Parliament Ch 232 and Sky Ch 233 now.
I’m speechless about the things I’m reading here. Every one seems to know better Spain and what’s going on than Spaniards.
Next week is going to be very different from what many prophets in this thread are saying. Quite difficult to debate with so biased and interested part people.
Please watch this video to know how the HATE of the nazi-secessionist is and has been when a Catalan wear HIS Spanish flag:
http://bit.ly/2glgKRt
I demand RESPECT for the Kingdom of Spain and it population. Will come next week to read and smile a bit. Salut.
@ SilentCatalonia60%population
Which is more ‘Fascist’, the facebook clip you presented, or this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum-polls-open-vote-protests-barcelona-madrid-police-guardia-civil-a7976791.html
As has been stated on here before, a proportion of Catalonians never vote either way (I believe a figure of 15% was used). If that is the case, then 43% becomes much more impressive, considering some 700,000 votes were confiscated and many voters who would have voted were either not allowed to by police action, much of it pure brutality, or were put off even trying by police actions.
So don’t expect anyone to believe all the ‘Silent’ non-voters were anti-Referendum, which you seem to be inferring.
Spaniards and Catalans are welcome to comment here, but so are UK and other citizens.
Trying to present pro-Referendum Catalans as ‘Fascist’ is rich, coming after the brutal over-reaction of the Policia Nacional and Guardia Civil; that’s how Franco would have responded, although he would have ordered even more brutality.
Remember, Franco came to power with the assistance of Hitler’s Air Force, and Italian Fascists. So calling the Republican Catalans Fascist won’t wash.
As a Spaniard, feel free to comment on UK polirtics; it’s a fairly free space, at present, in the UK. People don’t get their head busted by riot police (where was the riot?) for wanting a referendum (ask the Scots).
So who are the hundreds of thousands on the streets today?
Both Mike Russell and Alyn Smith making good strong pro-EU speeches at the SNP conference and getting the backing of the conference. No one has the right to take our Scottish EU citizenships away. Yes the EU’s Catalan response has been disappointing but politics is like that. The EU is still so valuable for European peace, prosperity and the environment.
Yes they did, prior to those excellent speeches, John Swinney in my opinion, stole the show with his magnificent oration, followed by a very audible ovation.
Didn’t catch Swinney’s speech Ros. Although I think Mike Russell referred to it’s quality.
Indeed, if you can find Swinney’s oration, I’d advise you to watch it. ?
@ reel guid October 8, 2017 at 16:06
Mussolini made the trains run on time….
The one and only thing the Yes campaign in Scotland should take away from this debacle is you make sure the punishment beatings take place before the vote instead of after.
More chance of finally scraping past that elusive line of respectability most nations have to spill never ending amounts of blood to achieve.