Hundreds of thousands of people are already gathered outside and inside polling stations across Catalonia, defending them from the squads of paramilitary police who are fanning out from Barcelona port. The atmosphere is currently festive and the determination to vote of ordinary, decent vote is inspirational.
When a people permanently withdraws its consent to be governed, and finds the courage to defy the agents of authorised state force, there is no way that the government can reimpose itself unless it is prepared to spill quite serious quantities of blood. I do not refer only to today’s referendum, which hopefully will go ahead peacefully but could not be stopped without physical force. In the long term, having eschewed the democratic route in favour of force, Spain will not be able to repress Catalonia without plunging still deeper in to the kind of tactics which reveal the very real Francoist political roots of its Prime Minister and many of its ruling party.
The ironic point, of course, is that had Spain agreed to a referendum process, they had a fair chance of winning it. It worked for continuing Westminster control of Scotland, although the Spanish government do not have the mainstream media monopoly in Catalonia which the unionists enjoyed in Scotland. It will be astonishing if the contempt for the views of the Catalonian people shown by Spain over the last month, has not instead propelled a large number of Catalans into the Independence camp, the more so given Rajoy’s blundering insistence on changing things today into a physical confrontation.
The British and other western governments have painted themselves into the most embarrassing position. As paramilitary forces are looking today to prevent crowds of solid and peaceful citizens from voting, the entire political Establishment across the European Union has declared on the side of the paramilitaries. The Guardian editorial states that in the UK only a few Scottish nationalists support the Catalans. Yet again, the Establishment promotes its own opinion as that of the people. I am quite certain that the view of the average British person is not one of support for the Spanish government in suppressing the vote.
The most extraordinary thing of all is the falling in line of the entire political Establishment, right across the EU, and all of its mainstream media, with the mantra that the Catalonian referendum is illegal. The right in international law of a people to self-determination cannot be constrained by the domestic legislation of the larger state from which that people is seeking to secede. NATO itself went to war ostensibly to enforce the right to self-determination of the Kosovans, which Kosovan secession was claimed as illegal by Serbia in precisely the same terms the Spanish claim. The hypocrisy of NATO governments is breathtaking (as always).
Nor can the Catalan people be bound in perpetuity to any arrangement they agreed immediately after the demise of Franco. The right of self-determination of peoples is inalienable, and the Catalan situation is a perfect illustration of the meaning of inalienable in this sense. In fact, by arguing that Catalonia specifically signed up to the current Spanish constitution, all the Spanish government and its supporters are doing is offering conclusive evidence that the Catalans are indeed a people with the right of self-determination.
In 2015 Rajoy’s right wing extremists in power enacted a law making it illegal to film Spanish police, with a fine of up to 30,000 euros. So those getting out footage of police attempts to disrupt voting will be breaking that law. I am not sure to what extent that explains the coyness of BBC coverage so far, or to what extent it is just part of their normal BBC propaganda effort. It is worth noting that the British government is planning to privatise the power of arrest to companies like G4S and Serco, giving them a whole new range of people they can beat up, rather than just prisoners and illegal detainees.
The Establishment all round the world seeks to enforce its will, and to protect the vast wealth a tiny minority have been allowed to rob through manipulating the institutions of society. When you see the right wing Establishment worldwide, pus the entire mainstream media, united against the ordinary people as we see today in Catalonia, it is a no-brainer which side you should be on.
Can anyone imagine the howls of protest from Western regimes and their MSM propaganda assets if the scenes from Catalonia were from Venezuela instead? And the dire threats of intervention (already muted). And, of course, in Venezuela they are throwing molotov cocktails, firing home-made ‘zip guns’ as well as some snipers using sniper rifles, as well as firecrackers and C4 explosives? Yet Venezuela does not use anything like the violence we have seen on video in Catalonia. And in Venezuela, they are rioting to try to overthrow the government, not to hold a referendum. Already Trump has increased sanctions on Venezuela, and is trying to get the EU to follow suit – bet there are no sanctions on Rajoy’s regime!
Sometimes I wonder at the level of delusion on display.
Between April and late August at least 124 people have been killed in Venezuela. So far, and as far as I am aware, no-one has been killed in Catalonia. I am unsure how you can kill 124 people by using less violence than the violence used in Catalonia which has killed no-one.
Should you have interest in reality here is Telesur setting it all out
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Heres-Your-Guide-to-Understanding-Protest-Deaths-in-Venezuela-20170422-0016.html
Telesur is a pan Latin American socialist broadcaster sponsored by the governments of Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Uruguay and Bolivia.
You will note that according to Telesur the majority of deaths are caused by opposition protests. Although it does admit to 5 killings by the police (with the handy caveat that some cases are still under investigation. All this means is (i) that Venezuelan security forces have killed 5 more people than the Spanish security services and (ii) that the Venezuelan security services are failing to provide security. By contrast Spanish security services are providing security.
@ Loony October 1, 2017 at 21:23
You are right – what I should have said is that in general Venezuelan police use far less violence when faced with violence, including stones and other projectiles, including Molotov cocktails and guns, GENERALLY use far less violence than the Gurdia Civil and the Policia National have used in Catalonia, and the Catalonians are NOT being violent, they just want the right to vote (incidentally, 90% of votes support Independence, from news just out).
In Venezuela they block roads, burn down schools, medical facilities, Government buildings, use sniper rifles at demos to kill BOTH sides (trick used in Syria and Maidan by the Yankee Poodles as well). Many Government employees have been targeted and killed in ‘Operation Phoenix’ fashion, killing leaders in Government-siding communities; one Government member and his partner were brutally tortured then murdered in their own house.
I have printed out the list of the 124, which I will scrutinise when I have more time.
A good resource for Venezuelan news is ‘Venezuela Analysis’: https://venezuelanalysis.com/news ; another is:
‘Venezuela Solidarity Campaign’: http://www.venezuelasolidarity.co.uk/
Obviously they are biased towards the Government side, but it is a useful counter to the EXTREME MSM anti-Government bias.
As for the commenter below, I shall ignore it as it doesn’t reply, but does a disappearing act, when faced with a reply it doesn’t have the answer to (I refer to the commenter as ‘it’ because I don’t know if it is a man or woman).
” Obviously they are biased towards the Government side, ”
Like the BBC which you loathe and mistrust? Why the different attitude here?
” As for the commenter below, I shall ignore it ”
Because you have no response.
“Venezuela does not use anything like the violence we have seen on video in Catalonia ”
Oh I think they do:-
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/23/americas/venezuela-protest-shooting-video/index.html
The two situations are not similar anyway, Rajoy has not by-passed Spain’s elected parliament to rule via a committee of hand selected yes-men. Neither are the Spanish people protesting en-masse because they do not have enough food, medicines and other essentials.
Banking efficacy in Spain may well have different standards to UK, not to say the UK is perfect. However Botin I recollect may have been a supporter of the right, but that could easily be checked. All that said, if I had money in Spain I would be inclined to be cautious.
I just got this up on the Independent (I posted as ‘outsider’):
‘See just how obscene and brutal these Guardia Civil are:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaniMateoAgain/status/914467943966236673
https://mobile.twitter.com/LaBaroneta/status/914519351696482305/video/1 ‘
I suggest others get on the MSM and put out some truth too on their ‘comments’ section, if they have one.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KarlreMarks/status/857956492015788032/photo/1
Amusing
Craig, what you have written is just completely brillinat..Do you remember the guy who camped right outside The House of Commons for about 10 Years in Protest against THEM inside The Houses of Westminster about The Iraq War
I wish I had that Courage and Determination…
But to be fair Everyone Loved Him – even the Right Wing Fascists….
ThE British Government Didn’t Kill him – or even remove him – well for about 10 years…
He was always there amd always really friendly and nice
His name was Brian Haw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Haw
Tony
@ Tony_0pmoc October 1, 2017 at 21:39
The police assaulted Brian on a number of occasions, removed him on a number of occasions (he won the right to stay through the courts) and stole his property. They also allowed others to assault him (he was kicked in the head once whilst sleeping – there is no way the culprit wouldn’t have bee seen both by CCTV and by the ever-present police presence in the Parliament grounds, but no one was arrested).
And there is reason to believe the police were responsible for the illegal ‘camp’ that was briefly set up on the grass, almost certainly as a further attempt to get legislation to remove both the camp and Brian Haw.
I protested quite frequently outside Parliament when Brian was there.
Boris Johnson says it’s “important that the Spanish constitution and the rule of law is upheld”.
By mentioning the constitution and rule of law together like that he’s implying that the culpability has been on the side of the Yes supporters. When it so obvious to sensible people that the culpability has been with the violent police and more specifically with the Madrid politicians who sent them.
The Caudillo would have re-established law and order against these neo-fascist elements in Catalonia in no time at all. As would General Pinochet in his country. The democratic central goverment in Madrid has shown a deplorable lack of urgency in dealing with the neo-fascist elements in Catalan society and their illegal, anti-constitutional manoeuvres.
@ Habbabkuk October 1, 2017 at 22:26
This strongly suggests you openly support the Fascism of Franco and Pinochet, and approve of the Policia National and Guardia Civile actions in Catalonia – is that the case?
Habbabkuk, a fascist supporter. Like a real fascist supporter.
Franco and Pinochet. Murderers, slaughterers and torturers both.
Who’d a thunk it.
What’s new?
Goes along with being the hasbarist that he is.
Thus speaks the Liar Laguerre – the same Liar who refuses to rise to the challenge of backing up his claim that the British Army sent Poles back to Communist Poland against their will at the end of WW2.
It is terrible to think that Laguerre is charged with teaching impressionable young minds.
Today’s the day that Spain died – The Wee Dug –
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/10/01/the-day-that-spain-died/
This posting is completely nuts – and probably explains why people in Scotland are not interested in independence.
Scottish independence and Catalan independence have about as much in common as a sheep and a shark.
Spain has not died – Spain has acted to demonstrate the price that it is willing to pay for unity. Spain acts to breathe life into itself.
No-one, absolutely no-one, would pay the same price for Scotland for the simple reason that no-one outside of Scotland cares one way or the other. Aint it hard when you realize that you’re really not where its at.
And then there is Int Laws
Yet it’s where *you’re* at.
”Yes’ to Catalonia: 90 Percent Vote to Leave Spain in Banned Independence Referendum’:
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.815193?utm_source=Push_Notification&utm_medium=web_push&utm_campaign=General
They’re quick of the mark!
You seem to have omitted a few salient facts – obviously an oversight.
Turnout in the “referendum” was about 43% – compared to over 72% in the Brexit referendum.
Based on this “result” the Catalan authorities have promised to declare “independence” within 48 hours. Apparently 2 years is an insufficient time for the British to withdraw from the EU.
Lets see how it all works out. Looks like trouble ahead. You going to pay a price or just stir trouble?
@ Loony October 2, 2017 at 00:22
‘…Turnout in the “referendum” was about 43% – compared to over 72% in the Brexit referendum…’
43% is an extremely good turnout, considering the huge police interference to prevent it.
There was no such brutality by the UK police to stop the Brexit referendum…..had there been, I don’t believe the vote would have been anything like the 43% the Catalans managed.
‘…“When I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.”…’ (George Orwell ‘Homage to Catalonia’).
What workers are there in Catalonia? It has been completely hollowed out, just like everywhere else.
All you see are a variety of dupes for the anarchist/globalist agenda going up against the forces of Spain. Spain will not be denied and Spain will not surrender to these anarchists.
If the Catalan authorities have the stupidity to pull the trigger on this then we move one step closer to Civil War 2.0. Who can possibly win? All that can be achieved is for Spain to show the world that it is simply not prepared to lose.
The fascists in Madrid should be more concerned about Algerian Civil War 2.0.
All those refugees flooding in.
That should keep them busy, whilst the Catalans slip the leash.
@ Loony October 2, 2017 at 00:43
If there are no workers in Catalonia, I wonder how it is the powerhouse of Spain?
If what you say is correct, now tell us who did the ‘hollowing out’. The usual suspects perhaps?
The result was predictable. Loyalist parties boycotted the referendum and only the nationalists eager for change would’ve bothered to come out in the face of the police blockades. The turnout was on a par with UK local elections and rubbish.
Do 90% of The Spanish want to kick their useless Fascist Government out too??
And The EU and Their NAZI American Controllers??
Are The Spanish and The Catalunyians rejecting DICTATORSHIP?
By Voting????????? (a very rare skill)
Viva Espana -You Spanish – Go for Independece too…
Te amo xxxx
We have a Spanish Girlfriend. I call her Sis.
My wife loves her too.
Tony
It’s going to be a long flight, let alone all the bollocks of going through airport control which typically adds 2 hours plus at each end – as well as the time to get to your destination, so to prevent being bored shitless, I have packed my ZEN, and some rather good in-ear “silent”” headphones, and Craig Murray’s Orange Togo book. The first 2 chapters are really good, though I always thought the title was not particularly attractive.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/books/the-catholic-orangemen-of-togo/
We are not flying Monarch this time – but that was pure chance.
Apparently according to The BBC and The Daily Telegraph – they are about to go bust, which is not good news if you want to get there, and even worse if you want to come back
Tony
@ Tony_0pmoc October 2, 2017 at 00:08
Lucky you!
‘Monarch Airlines collapses: UK’s biggest peacetime repatriation under way’:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/02/monarch-airlines-flights-cancelled-as-airline-goes-into-administration?
It is a no brainer. I note with weary familiarity that Governments – not to mention fellow posters – appear to have chosen the wrong option on this ‘no brainer’ of an issue. I’m all for the rule of law, and the referendum is perfectly legal and valid. Either way, beating people up and arresting mayors is a pretty bad look. Oh that’s ‘upholding the rule of law’, apparently. War Is Peace.
I’m getting all too tired of the crooks and gangsters who run the show with pretty words. They are just a little bit too obvious these days.
No informed person could possibly believe that this referendum was “perfectly legal and valid” To believe otherwise would require you to believe that the Supreme Court of Spain has no authority and that the legal system of Catalonia is without merit. Something that only anarchists would believe.
Beating people up and arresting Mayors is indeed a pretty bad look – but that is what Spain wants you to see, It wants you to understand that it is prepared to pay the price.
This is Spain, it is not the UK. It is not infested with weak people. They despise you for your weakness. The Catalans are quite happy to receive your faux sympathy, but they too despise you. You want evidence? Just look at (largely Catalan led protests) against turismo de borracheros. When faced with vomiting British nationals in their supermarkets they very quickly become Spanish.
“They despise you for your weakness”
That’s very Nietzschean of you.
” They despise you for your weakness ”
How very childish of them. I despise Mrs May for her adherence to an intellectually flawed philosophy, that human beings should look after only their own interests, for her racism in interpreting the UK’s vote against Europe in terms of hating foreigners, for her lack of intellect, viz her complete inability to engage or reply to Jeremy Corbyn’s principled ideas. But unlike Boris Johnson, I do not despise her for her weakness. I’d be quite happy to vote for her if there was any evidence that she is not just a poster-girl ventriloquist for ugly, dark right-wing strategists like Liam Fox.
Seems Rajoy is more than a Fascist: ‘Mariano Rajoy drawn into court case as corruption woes hit his party’:
https://www.ft.com/content/68d7b4a0-6e09-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa?mhq5j=e7
Rajoy, of course, denies wrongdoing (in Marilyn “Mandy” Rice-Davies immortal words, ‘ “Well he would say that, wouldn’t he?’).
Interesting article on the Catalan situation, by someone called Ana Palacio,
http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/30/view-allowing-catalonia-referendum-to-play-out-is-not-an-option?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1506773870
Then you learn that Ana Palacio is:
“a former Spanish foreign minister and former Senior Vice President of the World Bank, is a member of the Spanish Council of State, a visiting lecturer at Georgetown University, and a member of the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Council on the United States”
LOL.
Loony’s in bed with bankers and globalist agenderers.
Yes.
These thieving scum will have the ordinary Catalan interest at heart, I’m sure.
The plot thickens:
‘How a Dubious CIA Document Is Fueling Tensions in Catalonia’:
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/30/catalonia-cia-report-mossos-el-per iodico/
The MSM telling c*ck-and-bull porkies. But I suspect the Barcelona ‘terror attack’ was something to do with the upcoming expected referendum attempt.
https://theintercept.com/2017/09/30/catalonia-cia-report-mossos-el-periodico/
is what you need.
It shouldn’t be forgotten that Hitler played a very large role in Franco’s victory in 1933.
He supplied aircraft to airlift 1,500 men from Morocco, then more aircraft to protect cargo ships from attack whilst ferrying 3,000 more by sea. He also provided the dive bombers that attacked Republican cities and troops (Guernica is an example).
Mussolini also provided ‘volunteers’ to help Franco. And the Western governments twiddled their fingers.
Volunteers did join the Republicans from Europe, but these were not ‘State Sponsored’.
Ireland sent ‘Volunteers’ to fight for Franco, though I’m sure Irishmen also fought for the Republicans.
Many businessmen and Banksters in America supported Franco, as did many in the UK and elsewhere. The US, in fact, had it’s own attempted Fascist Coup attempt in 1934, the so-called ‘Business Plot’.
The same forces are clearly in the ascendant in the US now, the brutal increasingly militarised police, increasing invasions and military interventions overseas, and they are not far under the surface here in the UK.
Paul Barbara
Have you noticed that since the Tories were airlifted to power by Nick Clegg there has been an increase in the number of ‘think-tanks’, nearly all right-wing , labelled as independent, offering commentators on the BBC.
David Cameron had the nouse to understand the issues and present their sinister ideas as his own. Now they bubble up like march gas, showing there is much that is rotten in the UK’s submerged political class.
The Brexit regional power-grab, the deal with the DUP, the transfer of power to Theresa May, an unknown political entity, without consulting us the electorate, display an arrogance and sense of entitlement to govern that most people of my age find offensive, including The Queen. Now it may be that my ideas are old-fashioned and a new generation has been programmed to agree with authority but do the opposite. But if politicians abandon the concept of concensus, they shouldn’t be surprised if we do too.
@ giyane October 2, 2017 at 03:07
I hadn’t noticed, but I don’t much follow run-of-the-mill politics. And as for the British Propaganda Corporation (aka ‘BBC’) all I do is curse them.
“Ireland sent ‘Volunteers’ to fight for Franco, though I’m sure Irishmen also fought for the Republicans.”
The antecedents of the current govt, Fine Gael, supported the fascists.
Irish Republicans supported the Republican govt.
Both were involved in the fighting in Spain.
The Catholic Church supported the fascists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfONiJsmDgQ
Well TOTALLY Off Topic Or Not –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zko4nlFLMX0
@ Brianfujisan October 2, 2017 at 02:33
Bravo, Craig. Bravo, Brianfujisan, for bringing it to our attention!
The USUKIS terrorists in Syria, and political historians like Craig Murray, seem to think that all revolutionary causes are equal. Change will be painful , but eventually the new order will be proven to be okay.
The Catalonian referendum has exposed totalitarian attitudes in Madrid, but it has also exposed NWO capitalist attitudes in Barcelona which rumour has it is linked with Soros, and with the French election which has placed a NWO banking globalist in power, Macron.
Am I going to sit here waving a flag for Macron and Soros? The problem is that the complete collapse of the neo-liberal banking system is not a good advertisement for this political road. We are never going to agree to it when we predicted its flaws and ultimate failure and we witnessed its predicted demise.
Similarly in Syria the people who were forced at gun-point to leave their homes so that Soros’ Islamists could wage war against Assad who refused to be subservient to NWO global banking are never going to accept those foreign nationals taking over their country, occupying their lands and homes, and surrendering their national autonomy to the USUKIS hegemonists in exchange for power.
It’s not going to happen, not in France, not in Syria, not in Libya, not in the UK. We will never be swindled out of our deep cultural traditions even if we sleepwalk into negotiations and elections based on slogans that are lies. I promise it will never happen that Soros and his evil empire of masonic bankers will succeed in controlling free peoples through Islamist terror. It will never be that Soros or Macron or Barzani will use the slogans of national pride to achieve control over swathes of sovereign countries.
In the same way that I support Russian destruction of Grozny when Russia realised that the CIA was using Islamists to attack their country, and Russian destruction of the CIA’s Islamic State and Al Qaida in Syria, I support Madrid’s right to defend their country and their institutions from yet another colour revolution from the CIA in Catalonia. And if Craig plans to get CIA backing to back a blue independence revolution in Scotland, he knows where he can stuff that too.
Speaking generally, there is a certain dichotomy within the independence movements of wanting to break away from a the parent nation whilst wanting to remain or even a desire to join another larger grouping. Examples such as Scotland wanting independence from U.K. Whilst wanting to remain in the EU. More seriously are those countries such as Kosovo who wanted independence in order to join a different bloc without achieving true independence.
In some cases the call for independence is a distraction. Without a change in the current dominant globalised system, smaller units will become more vulnerable rather than truly independent.
England is not Scotland’s parent nation. Don’t pronounce on subjects you know nothing about.
I don’t see the word “England” in his post.
There is no One Nation. His “parent nation” implies there is. Scotland is a country/nation within a seriously flawed Union. “…smaller units will become more vulnerable rather than truly independent” he says. Whatever happened to an Englishman’s home being his castle??
Reel guid
I thought this is a forum of exchange of ideas, I was speaking in general terms. I am sorry if you felt ‘offended’ and choose to tell me not to ‘pronounce on subjects you know nothing about’. Mea culpa guilty as charged but your strong reaction reflects the high emotionally charged environment which nationalism can arouse.
Sorry SA for my rather bad mannered overreaction. And your last sentence makes a fair point.
I’d only like to add that anyone who has allegiance to any nation, sovereign or not, multi-nation state or not, is nationalist to some degree.
Thanks reel guid
Being twice displaced I can be detached but at the same time relate to how people feel.
There is a polarisation in this discussion in this blog that is very interesting to observe. Partly this is because of the the sympathy related to an associated cause by secessionists or pro- independence individuals. Scotland and Catalonia are not similar. The Scots did not force an ‘unconstitutional’ referendum and in general in this country people seem to abide by decisions of high courts and constitutional courts. But arguing that plucky Catalans defying the police is a good thing is problematic. There is also a very strong implication that Spain is a fascist country and not a democracy. The unilateral Catalan action would surely strengthen rather than weaken this trend.
I have no axes to grind but I can also see that people can be mobilised to act by vested interest in a way that is ultimately deterimental to them.
We also need to be clear that we do not have all the information on both sides.
In Scotland we’re being denied a second referendum just the same as Catalans were denied any Madrid cooperation in a first . The UK is drifting towards fascism like Spain. While Jeremy Corbyn says nothing about it and just goes round telling people he’ll be Prime Minister soon.
“In Scotland we’re being denied a second referendum just the same as Catalans were denied any Madrid cooperation in a first. The UK is drifting towards fascism like Spain.”
I thought one of the defining characteristics of fascism.is precisely mindless nationalist irrationality in the face of the facts.
Fact: in the British general election of only a few months ago, 73% of voters in Scotland supported unionist candidates. Fact: there was a much higher turnout than in the Scottish general election of last year.
There is no legimitacy in a call for another referendum in Scotland. If you were rational on the issue you would agree.
Correction: 63% supported unionist candidates. Typo.
It wasn’t an independence referendum, it was an election. Many Labour and Lib Dem voters support independence.
So if the SNP does well it’s a mandate for independence and when they do badly it’s only an election.
@ reel guid October 2, 2017 at 09:01
Pity people who should know better keep attacking Jeremy Corbyn on this blog.
He will be, when and if he becomes PM, the best PM the UK has had for a very long time, probably ever.
Nobody (even me) is perfect; do you prefer the Tories, or do you have another PM in mind?
Hasn’t JC got enough snipers attacking him, that you need to join the firing squad?
I want a Scottish PM for an independent Scotland Paul.
Of course I much prefer Corbyn’s social and foreign policies to the Tories’. But even so Corbyn has much the same hard Brexit line to May. Wants to take Scotland out the EU against our democratic choice. Sacks people like Chukka Umunna from his front bench simply for being pro-Europe. Doesn’t speak up about the Tories Westminster grab of returning powers from Brussels which is the beginning of the assault on devolution.
And although I’m sure he deplores the violence in Catalonia, he clearly doesn’t support the Catalans’ right to self-determination.
All in all I’m no fan.
“I want a Scottish PM for an independent Scotland Paul.”
Tell me again how Civic Nationalism works.
An English person living in Scotland would be eligable to be PM wouldn’t they?
If they had Scottish citizenship, yes.
I’d be perfectly happy for someone born in England and had an English accent to be the Prime Minister of independent Scotland if they were good at the job.
ReelGuid I am not intending to put myself forward as Prime Minister of Scotland. I am however fully intending to stand as an independent candidate for non-executive President. 🙂
“if they were good at the job”
No.
Can’t think of any like that.
So you’re discriminating against crap English politicians now.
Geordie
I assure you, not one bit more than I discriminate against crap Scottish politicians!
Craig
I’d happily vote for you to be head of state in indy Scotland.
@Craig – you’re a good guy and a brave man, but you aren’t rational on Scottish issues or whatever you can analogise with them.
In a highly partisan piece this morning, BBC radio told its listeners about Catalonia:
* they directly quoted only one side, the separatists
+ so the Spanish embassy and El Pais aren’t answering their phones, huh?
* they portrayed Spain and its authorities practically as if they were a foreign power in Catalonia
* right at the end, they mentioned that according to the Catalan government less than half of the eligible voters took part
+ they wrapped this information in words suggesting that that was a LOT of people – emphasising the word “million”
+ they observed that in these turbulent times numbers can’t be trusted, misdirecting away from the obvious fact that the Catalan government is hardly going to UNDERESTIMATE the turnout in its boycotted referendum
+ they didn’t mention the boycott, i.e. that the vast majority of opponents of separation didn’t vote
Considered in itself, the referendum was a total failure. But of course things shouldn’t be considered in themselves. How they get reported in the media is of crucial importance, and it’s obvious once the media coverage is taken into account that the referendum has been a major success. The interests that are destabilising Catalonia and the rest of Spain must be jumping for joy.
It is very possible that they will turn some of their attention to Scotland. Never mind that the SNP got hammered to shit in the most recent high-turnout vote in Scotland, namely the British general election.
Anyone with more than £85K in a Santander account, get it out NOW.
That’s if you trust the Financial Service Compensation Scheme. If you don’t, empty your account now. (Of course you shouldn’t have had more than £85K in any bank account in the first place, but that’s another point.)
I would advise anyone with any money in a Santander account to withdraw it ASAP regardless of the situation in Spain because they are bloody useless.
Are you both trying to start a run on Santander Bank?
Btw you don’t even know the indemnity limit. It was reduced from £85k to £75k a little while back.
@ N_ October 2, 2017 at 09:12
43% of population of Catalonia isn’t a massive success, voting against such vicious police action to stop them?
Have you seen these clips:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DaniMateoAgain/status/914467943966236673
https://mobile.twitter.com/LaBaroneta/status/914519351696482305/video/ 1
Do you really believe this brutality, and other cases, many of the worst I’m sure were done without being captured on video or reported, was justified just to stop people voting in a Referendum?
The Referendum result would not automatically have led to a UDI, it could have led to negotiations.
As it is, it has led to those with eyes to see that the PTB in Spain still embrace Fascism, and that they will try to cow the population with a brutal police force.
N so you think the Francoists are not nationalists?
I agree with the old liberal creed of self-determination of nations, but its naïve to think nations can be borne without bloodshed. Its possible if they have the backing of their neighbours, but unlikely, particularly if they are a wealthy area, which would result in the neighbours getting poorer. Hence the Catalonian referendum was an irresponsible act of war whereas the Scottish referendum was a negotiated referendum and explains why Scots voted Remain, because the referendum illustrated the strength of the Union, by the mere fact it was allowed.
“Hence the Catalonian referendum was an irresponsible act of war”
The Catalans had their autonomy reduced by the fascists in Madrid in 2010. Since then they’ve been attempting to negotiate a more amiable settlement.
The fascists in Madrid have been ignoring them and treating them with contempt.
The separatists were left with no option but to bring things to a head.
And this they’ve done.
Now the fascists in Madrid are saying they’ll talk.
Fascists aren’t much used to discussion, you see.
Are you saying the EU is siding with the Fascists?
The EU are fascists,
it will only get worse
Qui Bono? Who are the arch manipulators of patriotic feelings? Are they1/ The shabby crew that are currently taking Craig to court? 2/The communist party, 3/ Aliens from Mars. Sorry I am taking a multiple choice exam next week which I hope will be designed to help me pass.
@ giyane October 2, 2017 at 10:23
‘Why an Independent Catalonia Would Be a Huge Mistake’:
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.815155
This article argues against it. The point is, this police over-reaction was simply against a VOTE.
The 1978 Constitution was agreed with a gun at people’s heads – if you want a ‘Democracy’, you have to sign this.
There has been no accountability for the decades of Franco’s State crimes. Now Rajoy continues in Franco’s shoes, albeit ‘Franco Light’ at present.
Politicians are paid to make difficult choices. Stability has given them prosperity. Can they keep that prosperity while sticking two fingers up to the EU which supports the status quo? If the EU is so adamant that we can’t scrap free movement without losing free trade, why would they allow Catalonia to tear up a member state’s rules? After declaring independence they will not be recognised as a separate country from Spain by the EU. they will have to negotiate a divorce from Spain, same as we do.
The UK government may think that the EU is falling apart and jump ship, but the EU doesn’t see itself as falling apart, and it doesn’t like its federal authority to be by-passed. Sodos, correct me if I’m wrong, would belong to the same tiny group of the US elite as Victoria Nuland, who is currently under Trump eating poo.
Wings highlighting something May said on the Marr Show yesterday.
Marr asked her if she regretted calling the election. She replied that she didn’t think it was ever a mistake to give people a chance to vote.
Well now’s the time for her government to agree to a second indyref in Scotland if it’s never a mistake to give people a chance to vote.
Cue a post from Fred telling us we had that chance to vote in 2014 etc.
I was just waiting for the announcement from Bute House congratulating the people of Catalonia on their independence.
Scotland is standing shoulder to shoulder with Catalonia isn’t it?
@ reel guid October 2, 2017 at 11:12
Lies and evasions are so hard-wired into most politicians, May couldn’t even answer that one, which would not have reflected badly on her, as it is obvious she regrets it. But no, around the houses she goes, and opens herself up to your question.
‘George Soros is funding the independence of Catalonia’: http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html
Gulp…Voltaire net is generally on the money…
Here it is again, where it can be blown up enough to read what’s in the ‘Box’:
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20160816/403969314802/george-soros-diplocat-financio.html
I just put it up for info – I don’t know what to make of it myself.
One thing I am sure of, those people who faced the Guardia Civile wanted the Referendum, and didn’t go because they got a few bob off Soros. Perhaps the organisers did, though.
That evil git is determined to cause mayhem right up till he ‘passes over’ (or ‘under’), not too long to go by the look of him.
There’s a Demo at the Spanish Embassy tomorrow 3 October in Solidarity with general strike in Catalonia:
London Socialist Students has called a solidarity protest at the Spanish Embassy tomorrow at 5.30-7pm in solidarity with the general strike in Catalonia taking place tomorrow. Especially in solidarity with the Student Union which has already led strikes, and in which the sister party of the Socialist Party in the Spanish state plays a leading role.
Here is the facebook event https://www.facebook.com/events/511440999191638
Please come and spread this far and wide!!
If you can’t get there for 5.30, come when you can.
Send messages of solidarity to: [email protected]
See the reports and videos on the CWI website http://www.socialistworld.net/index.php/188-catalonia/9460-spain-catalonia-savage-police-violence-met-with-resistance-from-catalan-people
Now Cameroon has a ‘secessionist’ problem:
‘At least eight dead amid Cameroon Anglophone protests’:
http://af.reuters.com/article/africaTech/idAFKCN1C710Q-OZATP?
‘BUEA/BAMENDA, Cameroon (Reuters) – Soldiers shot dead at least eight people and wounded others in Cameroon’s restless English-speaking regions on Sunday during protests by activists calling for its independence from the majority Francophone nation, an official and witnesses said.
The demonstrations – timed to take place on the anniversary of Anglophone Cameroon’s independence from Britain – came as a months-old movement against perceived marginalisation by the Francophone-dominated government gathered pace….’
This should be tricky – Anglophone Cameroon v Francophone Cameroon.
I wonder what May and HMG will make of this one….
It si easy write without to know nothing about our country. Better if you write about your own history, Belfast, Ira,….
Please respect my country. and shutup.
You are seraching for traffic to your website, Your Moral is like your article
Exactly, he’s a clueless demagogue like Julian Ass-ange.
Your country’s going down the toilet, mate.
To be fair, I do believe you’re being set up for a fall.
You’re not quite with the Global Liberal Progressive consensus, you see.
It’s only because you’re an old state, you’re not being directly dissed in the way other Conservative regimes are.
But down you’re going.
Seems you’re not quite as bright as those other Conservative states who’ve become quite adept now at avoiding the old Colour Revolution trick.
Thank you Sir, much appreciated!
This post is about British Live Rock music in a country that many of us have never been before and how Monarch going bust has seriously affected some of our friends. It is not nice when you turn up after a long flight completely exhausted and you turn up at your hotel, already booked and paid for. You knew Monarch had gone bust, but you had no idea that the hotel accommodation you had booked was through a subsidiary company, and Monarch had not passed the £800 on to the hotel…and your credit card is maxed out. You have nowhere to stay and no idea how &you are going to get home……However we have Iron Maiden and Bruce Dickinson who is also an Airline Pilot in his Free time and we have never had such a Brilliant welcome and met so many friends in 24 hours. Most people have not yet arrived…
but they will and we are all going to have a brilliant time
RIP Tom Petty. We just heard another musician died aged 31. wtf’s going on? Keep on Rockin in The Free World. Tony & Wife. God Bless. If anyone else drops dead we can alwaye cross the border. Its only about 10 miles up.the road
It is not so many years, since Spain was tearing itself apart in a civil war, this could happen again.
Look at Syria, seven years of hell, the same could happen to any country, that is broken up.
https://www.rt.com/news/405603-nusra-leader-injured-syria/
I agree with this at several levels but the story is incomplete.
Firstly the EU is not a country or has sovereignty over Spain. It can no more criticise the use of police in Spain than the conduct of British police at Orgreave. Whatever your views on Catalan independence or Spanish policing the EU has no enforcement powers in that area of life. We just had a referendum in Britain where Eurosceptics accused the EU of being a “superstate” and the remain campaign said it was an organisation of separate sovereign states where the EU only had competence in specific areas agreed by sovereign member states.
If anything this proves that the remain campaign is correct.
I would welcome a world where the European Union could institute enquiries or criticise the police of a member state for events like Hillsborurgh, Stephen Lawrence, the death of Ian Tomlinson etc so that families did not depend on the often flawed processes in member states.I would like EU Citizens to be able to exercise more rights and find EU institutions standing behind citizens.
However to expect the EU to intervene in Catalonia, which is not a member state, where Spain, which is a member state, is acting within it’s constitution when the EU has never intervened in any other state is setting high expectations for a body that represents sovereign member states.
Should this make you anti-EU. Actually the reverse. It should push towards an even better EU where EU Citizens can expect more from the EU when the state let’s them down. Leaving the EU returns authority to the very state institutions that have undermined human rights and humanitarian behaviour.