Evidence submitted by the British government in court today proves, beyond any doubt, that Boris Johnson has been point blank lying about the degree of certainty Porton Down scientists have about the Skripals being poisoned with a Russian “novichok” agent.
Yesterday in an interview with Deutsche Welle Boris Johnson claimed directly Porton Down had told him they positively identified the nerve agent as Russian:
You argue that the source of this nerve agent, Novichok, is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of it?
Let me be clear with you … When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory …
So they have the samples …
They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, “Are you sure?” And he said there’s no doubt.
I knew and had published from my own whistleblowers that this is a lie. Until now I could not prove it. But today I can absolutely prove it, due to the judgement at the High Court case which gave permission for new blood samples to be taken from the Skripals for use by the OPCW. Justice Williams included in his judgement a summary of the evidence which tells us, directly for the first time, what Porton Down have actually said:
The Evidence
16. The evidence in support of the application is contained within the applications
themselves (in particular the Forms COP 3) and the witness statements.
17. I consider the following to be the relevant parts of the evidence. I shall identify the
witnesses only by their role and shall summarise the essential elements of their
evidence.
i) CC: Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst
Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples
tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT.
The emphasis is mine. This sworn Court evidence direct from Porton Down is utterly incompatible with what Boris Johnson has been saying. The truth is that Porton Down have not even positively identified this as a “Novichok”, as opposed to “a closely related agent”. Even if it were a “Novichok” that would not prove manufacture in Russia, and a “closely related agent” could be manufactured by literally scores of state and non-state actors.
This constitutes irrefutable evidence that the government have been straight out lying – to Parliament, to the EU, to NATO, to the United Nations, and above all to the people – about their degree of certainty of the origin of the attack. It might well be an attack originating in Russia, but there are indeed other possibilities and investigation is needed. As the government has sought to whip up jingoistic hysteria in advance of forthcoming local elections, the scale of the lie has daily increased.
On a sombre note, I am very much afraid the High Court evidence seems to indicate there is very little chance the Skripals will ever recover; one of the reasons the judge gave for his decision is that samples taken now will be better for analysis than samples taken post mortem.
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The state and corporate media now have evidence of the vast discrepancy between what May and Johnson are saying, and the truth about the Porton Down scientists’ position. I am afraid to say I expect this to make no difference whatsoever to the propaganda output of the BBC.
Still no evidence to show that Russia even had anything to do with this.
So what is behind this flurry of diplomatic expulsions? It cannot simply the UK’s claims the Skripals were dosed with a nerve agent of a type developed by the Russians. Particularly as the letter by Stephen Davies, from the local hospital, contradicting the official line that local people had been treated for nerve gas exposure ( – they had been tested and found not to be suffering from anything.) Mr Davies’ letter can only have got into the press because it went under the radar, via the Letters Page of the Times, or because the authorities did not want a mass panic on their hands in Salisbury and he was asked to write it for that reason. Now that Trump is expelling Russian diplomats, maybe some info will come out of the US that throws light on the real reasons.
Meanwhile off guardian is running an interesting discussion, give or take the occasional fantasist usual on this occasions.
https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/21/what-did-the-salisbury-physician-mean-by-no-patients-have-experienced-symptoms-of-nerve-agent-poisoning/
@ Agent Green March 26, 2018 at 14:46
Or even if it occurred at all. Could be just another hoax to demonise Russia.
Remeber, the same one’s who are bleating ‘It was Putin wot dun it’ are the same ones who blamed Assad for the CW attacks in Syria, and with an equal lack of evidence.
But heck, the West happily bombed the hell out of Afghanistan, one of the poorest countries on earth, who had never attacked any other country (except getting put up to attack Persia at one time by the Brits long ago), on an equal lack of evidence (and before the squawks of outrage, the FBI was contacted after and asked why OBL wasn’t listed as wanted for a ‘certain crime’, and their official spokesman replied ‘because we don’t have any hard evidence linking him to (‘the crime’).
Iraqi WMD’s, Kuwaiti ‘Incubator Babies’, Qaddafi feeding his troops viagra so they could rape more of the opposition, and being intent to massacre them all, Gulf of Tonkin LIE – yet shock, horror that the likes of Jeremy Corbyn ask for EVIDENCE of Russian complicity in the Skripal affair (even by the scum-bag Bliarite ‘New Labour’ backbenchers, some of whom couldn’t wait to sign a document saying Russia was responsible). ‘Great’ Britain becomes ‘Kangaroo Court Land’:
‘Bitter Labour row erupts after Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say Russia definitely committed nerve agent attack’:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-row-corbyn-sergei-skripal-12187168?utm_source=mirror_newsletter&
As May says in the video clip, ‘some’ ‘Labour’ backbenchers stand four square behind the (Tory) government’.
What a shower!
I agree that the whole story is fishy and the Government is certainly lying and deceiving us. But why? Are they making the whole thing up? Were these people really poisoned? If not or if they were but we can’t prove it was Russia, why has the Government made it up? It’s hellish risky to involve the whole Government, civil service, mainstream media, European Governments, USA Government and of course Russia in this lie.
What is the reason or the motive of the Government if this story is a fabrication?
@ John Booth March 26, 2018 at 15:11
Demonising Russia, preparing public opinion for more brinkmanship and probable further CW False Flag attacks in Syria.
These loonies really do believe a war with Russia is winnable; Webster Tarpley has been saying that for decades, and he appears to be spot on the money.
Is anyone familiar with this wine bottle (the name is blurred) in this photograph of the Skripal’s having a meal together?:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/18/09/4A4B62B900000578-5514907-image-m-4_1521363910271.jpg
Ta……something
We will never know. Just heard that the military are going to be on the streets of Salisbury for a long time and that the premises of Zizzi and The Mill are going to be subjected to a d e e p clean. Trust that the owners of the businesses have consequential loss insurance policies.
@ Billy Bostickson March 26, 2018 at 15:19
By Jove! You’ve cracked it. It’s Tavichok, bottled in Moskva 2003!
Yes, getting desperate now as my theories dissolve one by one, never mind, I’m convinced the British Police, under the guidance of their superiors, will do their level best to ensure the facts fit the case,
60 Russian diplomats ordered out of the US.
A consulate to close.
Biggest mass expulsion in years and all over this unproven poisoning.
Also Russia promises action against other states who play the same game.
The Russians sound extremely peed off – and rightly so.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-26/trump-expel-60-russian-diplomats-shut-seattle-consulate
Expect a mirror response. So 60 US diplomats will be expelled and another one of their consulates closed down.
O mein Papa!
Oh, my pa-pa, to me he was so wonderful
Oh, my pa-pa, to me he was so good
No one could be, so gentle and so lovable
Oh, my pa-pa, he always understood.
Gone are the days when he could take me on his knee
And with a smile he’d change my tears to laughter
Oh, my pa-pa, so funny, so adorable
Always the clown so funny in his way
Oh, my pa-pa, to me he was so wonderful
Deep in my heart ……
Stanley Johnson: Boris would be an ‘absolutely superb Prime Minister – the voice that roared’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/26/stanley-johnsonboris-would-absolutely-superb-prime-minister/?
Why expel so many “spies”? About 100 now from different countries.
Are the yanks and brits planning something and they don’t want anyone snooping on their next war plan or are they upset about something that happened before (unrelated to Skripal) and taking revenge?
@ Billy Bostickson March 26, 2018 at 16:00
I suspect the Russians have enough resources to sniff out Western ‘war plans’ without these Embassy officials. But the quid pro quo won’t please a lot of Western ‘Spies/Embassy staff’, who will lose their cushy numbers when they get turfed out of Russia.
It’s deadly serious stuff though, and why more of out Lemming MP’s, MSM etc can’t seem to twig where this all could lead indicates how far down the pan our countries have slipped.
Thank you Craig, another excellent, thoughtful post.
Putin gives May 24 hours to explain why Britain set this fire, or expect retaliation:
‘Fire in Siberian shopping mall leaves at least 64 people dead’:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/25/fire-in-siberian-shopping-mall-leaves-at-least-37-people-dead?
A request by May for evidence was rudely brushed off – ‘Just fes up to why you committed this heinous crime on Mother Russia’, she was told.
According to information coming out.
Rumours abound.
The fire alarm was switched off for a start.
A rather sick joke I’m afraid.
@ Resident Dissident March 26, 2018 at 18:14
Yes, but not as sick as May with her lack of evidence. At least a box of Bryant & May matches was found in Siberia (or was it Swan Vestas?). Either way, both had been originally developed in England, so if the British State was not directly responsible, at the very least they had failed in their responsibility to stop these favourite weapons of arsonists from falling into the wrong hands.
Russia is refusing to hand over samples of the matches found.
Unless May fesses up, Russia has threatened to win the World Cup.
My advice is when you are in hole stop digging. 41 children dead – nothing to do with May, all to do with the siloviki for whom Putin is at the top of their power vertical after 18 years in power.
Is there any point in trying to convince people like you (that have swallowed the Putin regime’s propaganda). Putin sits at the top of a divided but institutionally corrupt regime where the heads of ministerial departments can turn a blind eye to what ever scheme they want – for a fee, just so long as it doesn’t threaten the power of Mr P. What we will see with the tragedy in the case of this fire, is that officials from top down have lost control of subordinates any moral authority and now any right for their respect.
Yes Putin will blame others who didn’t know better but saw their chance to enrich themselves at the cost of others, because they followed the example set by those they answered to higher up.
There is no genuine accountability for anything in Putin’s Russia, except that if you question Putin, you can expect to pay dearly, as we have seen countless times both in Russia and abroad.
It is time the Russian people stopped abdicating their responsibility by giving Putin the mandate to do what he wants in return for a perceived economical stability. Yes he has stabilised the chaos caused by the rival mafia gangs of the 1990s. He has simply removed them and replaced them with a state mafia that answers to nobody. Is this the stability that Russian people want, if so prepare for more tragic disasters like this one in Siberia.
So let me ask: Is there accountability for anyone in May’s Britain, or in Trump’s America, for that matter.
Let me be specific: Politicians from both countries LIED us into a war in Iraq based upon non-existent “weapons of mass destruction.” Has anyone in either the UK or the US been held to account for these lies . . . and for the hundreds of thousands of dead humans in their wake???
Hell, in the United States, a whole slew of corrupt banksters, using fraud, brought the international economy to its knees in 2008. Not a one of them has been prosecuted by either the Obama or Bush justice departments. And yet, someone like you has the audacity to point the finger at Putin’s Russia?
Give me a f*&king break.
mister,
In lieu of the fire in Russian and Mr Putin, those terms can just as easily be replaced with the Grenfell Tower and Mrs May.
The only difference being that when we mess up, this is okay and when others do, it is not.
Apparently, the delusion of “exceptionalism” and its flip side, the reality of “hypocrisy,” are not just the provinces of the United States. It appears that you Brits are prone to suffer from them too.
This report below by Sky News with a Russian who claims to have worked on the Russian Novichok programme is interesting. Note how he says he got accidentally exposed to it and it left him “feeling ” very fearful. The fellow policeman who went to see DS Bailey in hospital described him as feeling very anxious. I wonder if that is relevant to its effects as described by the Russian interviewed here.
https://news.sky.com/story/russias-novichok-programme-exists-i-worked-on-it-scientist-tells-sky-news-11300710
I once consumed a lot of marijuana in the form of bhang. After I recovered from passing out, I recall it as a near death experience. I felt nauseous when I came across tea leaves for months. This probably explains the experience of the two gentlemen.
And another one!
That was some decades ago man!
Presumably the UK would have shared information with the European countries now tumbling over each other to expel Russian diplomats. Since it is so widely disseminated, what harm is there in sharing it with the rest of us? This is working out to be a coordinated hit on Russian interests. I recall that even in the 80s at the time Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, there was not this level of demonisation of the old Soviet Union. The Russians will correctly interpret this as another kick in the face of a weakened Russia.
And will the Russians finally stop saying “our Western partners”?
About time…. The Ruskies may or may not be involved in this and with every passing day, it looks like we will not be getting a definitive answer, but I believe that Russian statement earlier that they are perplexed by the unremitting hotility of the UK, shows that they realised early on the UK was going to milk this for all it is worth. Putin is a judo expert, and revenge is a dish best served cold.
Perhaps most Russians can distinguish between themselves and the ruling regime – they did so for over 70 years when the CPSU and while similar western sycophants were unable to do so.
Oh is that right? That works only if the Russians are convinced that there is fair play. All those people voting for Putin were not brainwashed idiots. They see unremitting hostility from the West. On the one hand Russia is ‘nothing but Siberia with a gas station’, on the other they can turn every Western election, hack every vital system, transport, electricity, etc launch rockets, build nuclear reactors, build their own planes and stymie the West’s depredations in the Middle East. Which is it? Methinks, the Russians are to blame for everything meme, is just a reflection of the fact that all too many interests did not expect the Russians to return from the dead. A large part of the credit is due to Putin, he too could been a the bumbling idiot like Yeltsin, which is why the oligarchs were so glad to present him as Yeltsin’s successor.
Perhaps Russians understand the treachery of the west between 1992 and now.
Perhaps Russians understand how Putin and his friends have enriched themselves. Not many Russians think it is unfair to call United Russia the Party of Crooks and Thieves or that Putin is telling the truth when it comes to declaring his income and assets. And every Russian I have spoken to doesn’t deny that the regime or its mafia friends were behind the poisoning – although not a few have no problem with such a treatment being given to traitors.
You also forget that Putin was the choice of one particular oligarch – a certain Mr Berezovsky. Those oligarchs who have been prepared to pay their dues to the Capo di Capo have had no problems whatsoever. – ask Deripaska, Usmanov or Abramovitch.
We so liked Berezovsky. Abramovich ans Usmanov, despite what you say you know about them, and allow them to buy so much of GB PLC. Its either one thing or the other. I can’t see the tories, who are also close to some of these people expelling them.
As was seen in the US in the fifties and sixties, you can’t break the mafia when it has infiltrated state structures. Putin has limited thier power and thier siphoning of Russian riches out of the country and rebuilt Russia from the catastrophe implemented by the WB, IMF and the Harvard school. That is why he is so hated in the west and thier useful Russian idiots.
Putin has limited thier power and thier siphoning of Russian riches out of the country
Now there is a joke – perhaps you might wish to look at aggregate capital outflows from Russia under Putin before giving a further demonstration of your blind ignorance.
RD
It is a sure sign that someone is rattled when they start using ad hominem arguments. Lets keep discussions civilised if possible shall we?
Facts:
Life expectancy charts Russia
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=RU
Is this sycophantic?
“During his time at the Hoover Institution, he wrote the major study Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development (in three volumes), arguing that the West played a major role in developing the Soviet Union from its very beginnings up until the present time (1970). Sutton argued that the Soviet Union’s technological and manufacturing base, which was then engaged in supplying the Viet Cong, was built by United States corporations and largely funded by US taxpayers. Steel and iron plants, the GAZ automobile factory, a Ford subsidiary in eastern Russia, and many other Soviet industrial enterprises were built with the help or technical assistance of the United States or US corporations. He argued further that the Soviet Union’s acquisition of MIRV technology was made possible by receiving (from US sources) machining equipment for the manufacture of precision ball bearings, necessary to mass-produce MIRV-enabled missiles.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton
Just watched a BBC news interview with an Estonian MP or Diplomat and he was just regurgitating the same Rubbish as May – “of a type” etc and that as it was developed by Russia (still no Soviet Union) it must be them. No proof in other words
Also May has just said up to 130 people could have come into contact with the poison! And the propaganda continues
Its all theatre. We already know from the statement from Dr Davies, that apart from the three initial victims, no one else was treated for the ‘poison’.
Exactly. And the press publish it without question. They are spoon fed pre-chewed pulped up dogshit and gobble it down without even holding their noses
It was the Estonian Foreign Minister by the way and when asked if he was convinced it was Russia he replied “we share the UK’s assessment that it was highly likely…..” so all of these expulsions of diplomats by the EU is based on the same lies we are told. Oh dear
They are going for the ‘highly likely’ assessment even though the developments over the past few days should give them pause. Fools.
I looked again at the Boris quote. Boris IS an idiot, I don’t think it’s an act. However, he DID NOT say they had samples ‘with which to compare’ He has only said, or agreed, that they ‘have samples’ Yes, samples obtained from the Skripals etc.
As I noted in the 2014 Referendum, watch what the PM says. Don’t look at what ministers and other cohorts say. PMs of all colours will attempt to ‘keep their hands clean’ so that no one can say they ‘lied to parliament’ May has simply been saying that there is no other reasonable conclusion. She has never said otherwise. But many in the news will actively CHANGE the words of quotes to report a different story. Again, I saw this with the Standard Life story in the referendum. I read that company’s statement and called out STV news on their story. They denied the lie, however it was clear to me and anyone who read the document that journalists were deliberately lying to create a false sense of fear. The same is happening again. May is guilty of simply not correcting ALL of her party and ALL of the UK and foreign press but she has not overtly lied (yet)
But those people who have to be exact about such things ie Porton Down, refuse to say anything except it’s a Novichok or similar. I can understand, it IS a Novichok but the ‘or similar’ is a requisite precaution. If they HAD something to compare it to, and a comparative identification of origin WAS possible, then they’d say so. It’d be something along the lines of ‘bears all the markers of Novichoks manufactured in Russia at Site X and/or at X time’
The news stories MIGHT lead you to believe that there is something THEY know that WE don’t ie intelligence information. But again, May sticks to ‘No other plausible explanation’ in any quote and Boris just flaps his gums around uselessly saying, or appearing to say just what the journalists want to fit in with the story THEY want to tell.
That’s not to say it wasn’t Putin. Having spent many long years in the Civil Service I know that just because it’s the stupidest POSSIBLE idea, doesn’t mean a politician WON’T do it, especially with an election coming up. And he does tend to aggressive, so there’s that. But what really bothers me is that, firstly, Putin is NOT stupid. He is a very intelligent politician on the world stage, managing to avoid all out war in Syria, for example. Secondly, not just killing a traitor (as he is entitled to view Skripal) but doing so in a way that is so obviously Russian when he could’ve ensured the method at least resembled an accident on foreign territory. What has Putting gained from it? Of course the embassy (I think it was they) tweeted ‘Thanks for increasing my majority’ but Putin did not need this, he had enough votes without doing this. We NOW hear of ballot-stuffing (which I doubt) but this is cynical. We KNOW that Putin has no serious competition, they are all removed WELL before they get to the stage of being an ACTUAL threat.
Either Putin is slipping, suddenly making schoolboy errors, or someone else is responsible. Almost anyone could’ve carried out the act on behalf of another, we’ll never know for sure. We can only ask ourselves who benefits from this, and it ain’t Russia or Putin, THAT’S for sure…
another sick joke – avoiding all out war in Syria? Just a little local skirmish I presume.
That is the big bugaboo for you isn’t it? Syrians should simply give up their way of life, and reconcile to life under the jihad pigs most of them foreign. Right? Otherwise it is Assad gassing the Syrian civilians once again. Strangely tt always happens that when the SAA is on the verge of a victory, Assad goes and spoils it by using poison gas just in time for another White Helmet Hollywood drama. Too bad the Syrians and Russians were prepared for another one of their dramas in Ghouta.
I was writing on this forum about the millions of refugees being caused by Assad well before you even invented your particular conspiracy theory and post facto justification for massive human rights abuses by the Assad regime and its backers.
Good news for you @Resident Dissident!
Good news – Syrian Arab Army liberates key town in East Ghouta
https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/25/video-syrian-arab-army-liberates-key-town-in-east-ghouta/
To me the people look rather joyful. Strange isn’t it that they should seem to be so happy to be back under Assad’s control, him being a ‘massive human rights’ abuser.
Really interesting to do a survey of the Syrian People’s views off the BBC’s coverage of the war.
Agree you can’t rule out Putin but he is a clever man and I can not see a clever man risking this degree of opprobrium at all. Never mind with a Blue Riband event about to be hosted in his country
Ukraine on the other hand has much to gain from this. The cancellation of Nordstream 2 for example. That would mean Putin has to go back to them for gas transit. I think Ukraine will lose 10% of their pisspoor GDP if the contract with them is cancelled. Need a fact check on that but it is not insignificant
I logged in expecting to find the comments section alive with whats happening in the commons debate live on BBC Parliament.
May claims that Porton Down has confirmed it was Novichok. Further confirms Boris Johnson what he said on Andrew Marr show that Russia has been stockpiling for ten years, and training assassins.
Corbyn is just agreeing with the presentation.
Any reason for the silence…_
Cant see Corbyn. Just the usual suspects talking balls
In an empty house
Was the confirmation a new one or the same as that stated in the Court of Protection Decision which notes:
“…the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent.”
Also interesting from the COP Decision is the comment in respect of Porton Down’s findings in respect of the usefulness of a second opinion from the OPCW inspectors:
“That [the OPCW investigation enquiry] might simply confirm the current conclusions, it might elaborate or clarify them, it might reach a different conclusion. Although the Secretary of State does not believe the latter prospect to be likely given her confidence in Porton Down’s findings I do not think the possibility can be ignored – and in particular I do not think an individual faced with supporting or not supporting such an inquiry would ignore that possibility at this stage.”
“Further confirms Boris Johnson what he said on Andrew Marr show that Russia has been stockpiling for ten years…”
Another confirmation of just how effective propaganda techniques can be. As Craig has pointed out very forcefully, Johnson did NOT say that Russia has been stockpiling novichoks for 10 years. Rather, he said: “We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has … been creating and stockpiling novichok.”
It isn’t even clear what the “within the last 10 years” qualifies – (un)grammatically, it must be “we have evidence”, not “Russia … has been stockpiling” – but that is still not the point. As Craig made very clear, the *only* categorical statement Johnson was making was that Britain didn’t have evidence more than 10 years ago. Whether it had evidence more than five minutes ago is a question Johnson didn’t answer.
5 minutes, 5 months, 5 years….of no consequence. Johnson said this on BBC, no blowback if he is proved to be lying.
May said this IN PARLIAMENT, different consequences if she is proved to be lying…_
Well, I’ve been chasing the DS Bailey story. Hit a couple of police contacts trying to find out more and got stonewalled. An hour later one of them rang me and said don’t bring this up with me again. Half an hour after that he rang again and basically said this is a dangerous subject, move on, there’s nothing for you here.
I know the party concerned well, they don’t scare easily.
Did you record him?
Not my style.
thank you for some sense and truth which is so lacking in the MSM.
Any winos on this forum?
Is anyone familiar with this wine bottle (the name is blurred) in this photograph of the Skripal’s having a meal together?:
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/18/09/4A4B62B900000578-5514907-image-m-4_1521363910271.jpg
Ta……something, hope it’s not Tavichok as suggested by Paul Barbara
This is all linked to the clintons and the GPS fusion dossier created by Clinton to get shit on trump.
Skripal was a friend of Pablo Miller (ex mi6) who worked for Christoper Steele (ex mi6) and created the dossier. Skripal was on the take for a £100k when he became a British agent. So he had a good story to sell to Fleet Street , but no one wanted him to reveal the truth behind the dossier so he had to be eliminated and join the Clinton body bag with his daughter.
Mrs May said today: “we assess that more than 130 people in Salisbury could have potentially been exposed to this nerve agent. More than 50 were assessed in hospital, and Sergeant Nick Bailey was admitted.”
Now I am not saying Russia was not behind it, it might have been, judging from the way other countries have expelled Russians there is clearly some high level intelligence being shared which is not being made public. Meanwhile there is a lot of mealy mouthed juggling with words going on in government statements. Despite the “assessments” Mrs May mentioned, no-one in Salisbury, apart from the three victims, has shown any sign of being affected in any way at all. Just to recall what Salisbury Hospital’s Emergency Medicine consultant wrote to the Times: ” May I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve-agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved.”
Meanwhile the Sun has news on Skripal’s UK girlfriend
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5895369/poisoned-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-secret-girlfriend-salisbury/
“there is clearly some high level intelligence being shared which is not being made public”
This is an assumption that I suspect is totally unwarranted. Judging by the statements of the various countries, it would appear that the only “proof” they have been presented is the “fact” that the poisoning agent was “of a type developed by Russia”.
For example, here is the Twitter announcement by the German Foreign Office:
Germany will expel four Russian diplomats. To this day #Russia has shown no efforts to support investigations after the #Salisbury attack. “The decision was not taken lightly”, says FM @HeikoMaas.
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-other-countries-expel-russian-diplomats-over-skripal-poisoning/a-43138074
On the surface this is ridiculous, as it was the Russians from the very first who proposed a joint investigation with immediate recourse to the OPCW.
JC held out for a while, but it seems everyone else has fallen into line, including Nigel Farage, who in the past was a sensible voice on Russia. There must be some serious strong arming going on behind the scenes!
honi soit qui mal y pense
We cannot rule out that the high level intelligence which is being shared, cannot be made public without compromising the sources.
I think we can categorically rule that out on the grounds that it is highly unlikely. Nothing more is required.
“Could have potentially”. Weasel words.
In this interview with the Independent, Dr Patriciaewis of Chatham House (whose areas of expertise include weapons of mass destructiion) said: ” British experts would have been able to detect minute trace elements proving the nerve agent’s country of origin, and would therefore have been able to rule out the possibility it was from stocks developed by other nations for the purposes of devising defences against it. The experts, she said, would not just have relied on the fact Russia was the country which developed Novichok. “There are ways to detect and be much more sure about where it came from,” said Dr Lewis, who served on the 2004-6 WMD Commission chaired by Dr Hans Blix. “There are very high resolution analysis techniques that can track down trace elements, certain types of chemicals in the particular region where it has been made.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/novichok-effects-nerve-agent-russian-spy-attack-salisbury-sergei-skripal-if-survive-live-body-a8253976.html
That may be true if they had an actual sample of the nerve agent itself.
According to the High Court judgement that Craig published at the top they only have blood samples.
Do the trace elements survive in the body? Or just the active molecule that attaches itself?
I think if it was the former we wouldn’t be hearing “of a type developed by Russia or associated compound” but lets see what the OPCW have to say.
Sounds like bullshit to me. As you say they must have an original sample to begin with if they want to be certain. If things were so cut and dried all the UK had to do was to divide the samples say among five countries including the Russians and let the Russians incriminate themselves while the other countries confirm that only Russia could have made that particular batch of agents. As a matter of fact such an unambiguous pointer to the Russians should also mean that the UK has samples of Novichok of its own. The question then arises: How did they obtain them; what is the chain of custody?
Agree. The fact that they have not managed to recover an actual unadulterated sample of the dose used on the Skripals (from the bench/air vent/door handle or wherever) means that everything they know comes from an analysis of the blood samples. That’s clearly not enough hence the ambiguity. Also raises the possibility that OPCW wont be able to say with any certainty either
Mary Paul
“British experts would have been able to detect minute trace elements proving the nerve agent’s country of origin”
Does not mean a thing.So you use your Mass Spec of which in the past I have built a few in my time.What`s that going to tell you ? Well the nerve agent could have been created anywhere even in the UK as we import tons of organic and inorganic chemicals from the Russian Federation.
Two things wrong with the claim that it is possible, by analysis of a chemical, to tell where it came from;
1) It’s not true (radioactive isotopes can leave “fingerprints” but that is not what is being proposed here)
And if it were (as mentioned you would need a sample to compare it against) so
2) If Britain had managed to get hold of a reference sample, someone else could have got hold of a killing sample.
Well I am not a physicist but the interview was with Dr Patricia Lewis of Chatham House who is a very distinguished physicist and an expert on weapons of mass destruction of all goes and served on Hans Blixs Commission on WmD from 2004-6. If you are going to give credence to Stephen Bailey the consultant at Salisbury Hospital I think you have to grant it to her too. I am only going where the facts lead. I am not starting from a fixed position.
Thanks, obviously you ruffled a few feathers on this forum, but people need to face the facts even if they don’t like them, otherwise we are all shouting at reflections.
“Dr Patricia Lewis of Chatham House who is a very distinguished physicist ” In what? can you point me to her research papers please so I can take a ganda.
She has a wikipedia page, she is a former nuclear physicist. She performed brilliantly on the Iraq WMD committee, clearly and unambiguously declaring to the world before the invasion of Iraq that there was no reliable evidence Iraq had nuclear program. Oh wait, no she didn’t. Well, I expect she has learnt from her past mistakes.
I don’t see how you can identify a “trace element” – if she is using element in the correct sense – unless they have isolated a source of the agent outside the body.
As far as it goes at least one of the two precursors, N,N-Diethylacetamide, is easily purchasable online. The other precursor is listed for sale by chemical companies, but they ought not to sell it to just anybody (but who knows). But if there is a Russian manufacturer of N,N-Diethylacetamide – and I haven’t found one – all you have to do is purchase it from them and lo! you have a Russian signature. If the other immediate precursor is not commercially available, you could surely purchase the precursor a step further down the synthesis pathway from a Russian manufacturer for the same effect
Perhaps they found a trace of the agent on the face or hands and managed to do an element analysis? But then if you claim the presence of Element X indicates Russia, all you need to do is dope your toxin with that element and again it becomes Russian. It gets particularly problematic that both the victims are Russian and at least one of them was in Russia the day before.
This is what happens when you have the same outfit generating the intelligence and the scientific findings, they can always ensure the two match perfectly.
It is also underscores that why there may be reasons to keep intelligence secret, there is never a justification to keep the science secret. It looks particularly bad when you share your scientific techno-babble with your EU allies but refuse to share it with the party you are accusing.
“But then if you claim the presence of Element X indicates Russia, all you need to do is dope your toxin with that element and again it becomes Russian.”
Possibly a couple of drops of Moscow tap-water would be enough. Again, it is impossible tell with only the little nods and winks the Establishment is giving out about their marvellous science to go on.
In a recent letter to The Times, Stephen Davies, Consultant in Emergency Medicine at Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust, wrote the following:
“Sir, Further to your report (“Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment”, Mar 14) may I clarify that no patients have experienced nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning.”
A consultant trying to clarify the situation….actually states ‘no patients have experienced nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury’.
Discuss.
It’s already been discussed here but not in the media.
If the UK (Porton Down) have a reference sample of the “Novichok” from Russia that matches that magically matches the poison used in Salisbury, and Russia has destroyed all it’s chemical weapons (according to OPCW) then the only possible source of the Salisbury toxin is Porto Down
Closing the circle with the conclusions reached by Craig Murray in the very first of his articles on this matter.
Anyone know who the members of the OPCW inspection team are?
Because if they come from countries that have expelled Russian Diplomats then their reliability is very much in doubt. Those countries have already found Russia guilty and meted out punishment.
What’s the point of the OPCW inspection if Russia is already guilty as charged?
Some good questions asked here:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZPS4HCXkAAXhub.jpg
‘Syrian Army intercepts militant transport truck destined for East Ghouta’:
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-army-intercepts-militant-t ransport-truck-destined-for-east-ghouta-video/
‘..The Syrian armed forces carried out a successful military operation intercepting a truck containing weapons and ammunition intended for militants, a representative of Syrian intelligence told Sputnik.
“We organized an ambush, as a result of which a large truck carrying ammunition and weapons has been intercepted; some of the equipment is made in America. Also there were medicines and equipment for satellite communication there. All this was intended for militants in Ghouta,” the spokesman said.
A video that appeared online shows ammunition and weapons found in the truck, including smoke grenades with the inscription “Salisbury England.” …’
Did I read that right? ‘…A video that appeared online shows ammunition and weapons found in the truck, including smoke grenades with the inscription “Salisbury England.”…’
Well, Mrs. May, how do you plead to that one?
This, if true, is dynamite:
‘After new Novichok revelations, it’s time for UK to come clean: They’re lying’:
https://www.sott.net/article/380730-After-new-Novichok-revelations-its-time-for-UK-to-come-clean-They-re-lying
‘…The Associated Press summarizes other parts of the interview with Professor Rink:
Rink told Russia’s state RIA Novosti news agency Tuesday that Britain and other western nations easily could have synthesized the nerve agent after chemical expert Vil Mirzayanov emigrated to the United States and revealed the formula.
Echoing Russian government statements, Rink says it wouldn’t make sense for Moscow to poison Sergei Skripal, a military intelligence officer who spied for Britain, because he was a used asset “drained” by both Russia and Britain.
He claims Britain’s use of the name Novichok for the nerve agent is intended to convince the public that Russia is to blame.
The English-Russian magazine The Bell interviews another Russian scientist involved in the issue:
The Bell was able to find and speak with Vladimir Uglev, one of the scientists who was involved in developing the nerve agent referred to as “Novichok”. […] Vladimir Uglev, formerly a scientist with Volsk branch of GOSNIIOKHT (“State Scientific-Research Institute for Organic Chemistry and Technology”), which developed and tested production of new lethal substances since 1972, spoke for the first time about his work as early as the 1990s. He left the institute in 1994 and is now retired.
– The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs insists that there was no research nor development of any substance called “Novichok”, not in Russia, nor in the USSR. Is that true?
– In order to make it easier to understand the subject matter, I will not use the name “Novichok” which has is now commonly used by everyone to describe those four substances which were conditionally assigned to me to develop over a period of several years. Three of these substances are part of the “Foliant” program, which was led by Pyotr Kirpichev, a scientist with GOSNIIOKHT (State Scientific-Research Institute for Organic Chemistry and Technology). The first substance of a new class of organophosphorous chemical agents, I will call it “A-1972”, was developed by Kirpichev in 1972. In 1976, I developed two substances: “B-1976” and “C-1976”. The fourth substance, “D-1980”, was developed by Kirpichev in the early 1980s. All of these substances fall under the group referred to as “Novichkov”, but that name wasn’t given to the substances by GOSNIIOKHT.
All four chemical agents are “FOS” or organophosphorous compounds which have a nerve paralyzing effect, but they differ in their precursors, how they were discovered and in their usage as agents of chemical warfare.
The four substances were developed by Pyotr Kirpichev and Vladimir Uglev. These substances were not readily usable by the military as they could not be safely transported and used in the field like binary chemical weapons can. Once synthesized they were extremely dangerous. Professor Leonid Rink, working later in a different group, tackled the problem but did not succeed. Uglev confirms that Vil Miranzayanov was not involved in the development at all. His group was responsible for chemical analysis and for environmental control around the laboratory. …’
The stuff was in the hands of mobsters in the 1990’s, and was used to kill a Bankster. Kinda changes things a little from HMG narrative, and the MSM ‘regurgitators’, don’t you think?
No, it’s not dynamite, it’s a damp squib past its expiry date.
The news about Rink and Uglev was published a week ago.
You need to look at previous posts where this was discussed in detail.
“Echoing Russian government statements, Rink says it wouldn’t make sense…..”
Rink was arrested for the 1995 murder and accused of murder, he got a one year suspended sentence, then disappeared from public view, probably to continue work on the Foliant program in more discreet facilities.
No wonder he now is “echoing Russian government statements”
@ Billy Bostickson March 27, 2018 at 07:42
Who was murdered and in what fashion was the murder committed?
Kinda give’s a lotta credence to the story, no?
And God forbid you should give any links – your allegations (like May’s and Johnston’s and the MSM) should be taken as gospel.
Moscow has turned the tables on the UK with their own “heads I win tails you lose” impossible choice:
Logic suggests two possible variants. Either the British authorities are unable to ensure protection against such terrorist attacks on their territory, or they were directly or indirectly involved in the preparation of this attack on a Russian citizen. There is no other alternative.
Checkmate
https://www.sott.net/article/380730-After-new-Novichok-revelations-its-time-for-UK-to-come-clean-They-re-lying
The language of obfuscation continues.
“She added: “We assess that more than 130 people in Salisbury could have been potentially exposed to this nerve agent.””
Assess, could have been, potentially. Oh dear.
How about”we haven’t a clue what we are talking about”.
I noticed that. she also said that 40 people had been ” assessed” in hospital ( which Met Police anti terrorism capo Neil Sabu had earlier described as been ” treated ”
– let us assume that was Met police press office up to its usual tricks). The consultant’s letter to the Times indicated to me they had been self referred. So are the other 110 at risk and have they been assessed and if not why not? Does that number indeed include Mrs May who visited the sites shortly afterwards without protective clothing?
I am something of a Putin watcher. Like others here I take an interest in politics and Putin’s resentment of EU ” encroachment” on the old Soviet empire is one of my interests.Yesterdsy I watched his first press conference about the Novichok incident. I have to say he struck me as uncharacteristically uneasy and slightly sweaty compared to how he usually appears. Just remarking.
I have no political axe to grind. I regard all politicians as duplicitous by nature of their trade. I do enjoy following up any major incident where the facts are not all in the public domain or being muddied. I am also something of a Putin watcher. (I was very interested in the facts behind the shooting down of Malaysian Flight MH17 for example.)
I work from home which allows me to follow crises like these as they develop and my early training lends itself to a forensic analysis of the known facts. This one is tricky because we lack so many facts. But usually indications start to emerge from the fog after a while. Here it is clear the UK press has been silenced, the UK government is spinning like mad and some high level intelligence has been shared with other countries. Once it gets to the US, facts usually start to emerge and I am sure some will , jn due course.
At present I do not understand why, if Russia was behind it, they chose now just ahead of the World Cup. I certainly don’t buy the view it was to frighten the London oligarchs. They must already be plenty frightened as they get regularly bumped off, while the UK government looks the other way. It could have been a demonstration to the intelligence community, look what we can do, and it has certainly rattled the UK government. I do have some observations to make about the poison used but I have to go out now, will return to it later.
Remember the ‘Gulf of Tonkin’ LIE? The ‘Kuwaiti Incubator Babies’ LIE? The ‘Iraqi WMD’ LIE? The ‘Massed Tanks on Saudi Border’ LIE?
Has anyone been punished for these lies which were instrumental in launching major military attacks on Sovereign countries, causing millions and millions of deaths? No. The only one’s who suffered were the victims of the lies.
Why should we expect better from May and her cronies and fellow-travellers re the Skripal affair?
You missed one.
Racak.
The false flag that unleashed the mass bombing of christian Serbia on behalf of the KLA by Clinton and Blair..
The KLA, precursor to ISIS.
That enabled the USA to steal Kosovo illegally – build its massive base there – Camp Bond Steel – and hand over to islamic terrorists – supported by the Saudis – a narco/criminal/terrorist state and base – a threat to christian Europe.
One of the biggest supporters and a man power base for ISIS itself.
http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/massacre-genocide-at-racak-false-flag.html
Here is the truth about William Walker – CIA.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/22/world/europe/how-the-saudis-turned-kosovo-into-fertile-ground-for-isis.html
https://southfront.org/kosovos-isis-camps-creche-for-young-terrorists/
And here is a story by John Pilger.
Singularly missing from the western MSM.
I wonder why?
http://johnpilger.com/articles/provoking-nuclear-war-by-media
So here we go again.
‘Trump and the West give Putin the fight he needs’:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/27/trump-and-the-west-give-putin-the-fight-he-needs/?
‘On Monday morning the United States, Canada and the European Union carried out a coordinated mass expulsion of Russian diplomats, responding to Moscow’s alleged role in the March 4 poisoning of a former Russian spy and his daughter in Britain. The Trump administration expelled 60 Russian intelligence and diplomatic officers in New York and Washington and ordered the shuttering of the Russian consulate in Seattle. At least 14 other NATO and European allies joined in, ejecting more than 100 Russian diplomats in total….’
Now I don’t put great store on the Washington Post, but to give Ishaan Tharoor his due, even he admits the ‘crime’ is only ‘alleged’ – unlike our MSM hacks and government toadies.
Now that so many states have jumped on the “Putin ordered the hit” bandwagon, is it fair to assume that no other answer is now possible, whatever the OPCW (or the police) might be inclined to say? Far too much face to lose now, surely?
The vampires are now daywalkers going about their business in plane sight.
Cambridge Analytica, data to be stored in DNA, the growth of AI, human micro chipping – the toolbox of the global elite. But don’t worry you will still be free……….
I should say so, yes. The power of ritual defamation and denigration to undercut rationality was never in doubt!
The nerve agent is said to have been found in many different places in Salisbury.
Is that because someone applied the agent to the target’s (Julia Skripal or her Father’s) clothing, where it acted as a slow aerosol and dropped out all over as the target walked along, thus explaining the multiple locations where it has been found in Salisbury.
Absorption through clothing is very slow explaining the long exposure time and diminished lethality.
The agent has limited military use as it is binary, both precursors have to be kept frozen and when mixed, have to be applied within 4 hours. It rapidly degrades when exposed to water, either rain or vapor. When applied directly to skin or inhaled it is quickly lethal and no recovery is possible with any antidote.
Some interesting analysis here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ANovichok_agent
Any Comments?
Yes, not all that is written down or spoken is true.
eg regarding BB’s previous comment;
“The agent has limited military use as it is binary, both precursors have to be kept frozen and when mixed, have to be applied within 4 hours. It rapidly degrades when exposed to water, either rain or vapor. When applied directly to skin or inhaled it is quickly lethal and no recovery is possible with any antidote.”
The specific “Salisbury” Agent has not been made known to the public, it may not be known to Porton Down.
It is not known if it is a Primary (Not agents loosely refereed to as Novickoks are Binary or indeed Nerve Agents / Gasses.
Nerve Agents (and if from Binary the chemicals that make up the precursors) do not need to be kept frozen.
(see M687 Artillery Shell)
Half lives of poisons (in general and including Nerve Agents) when exposed to air and moisure vary considerably (from hours to years)
Effective Antidotes are known for some Nerve Agents
.