Evidence submitted by the British government in court today proves, beyond any doubt, that Boris Johnson has been point blank lying about the degree of certainty Porton Down scientists have about the Skripals being poisoned with a Russian “novichok” agent.
Yesterday in an interview with Deutsche Welle Boris Johnson claimed directly Porton Down had told him they positively identified the nerve agent as Russian:
You argue that the source of this nerve agent, Novichok, is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of it?
Let me be clear with you … When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory …
So they have the samples …
They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, “Are you sure?” And he said there’s no doubt.
I knew and had published from my own whistleblowers that this is a lie. Until now I could not prove it. But today I can absolutely prove it, due to the judgement at the High Court case which gave permission for new blood samples to be taken from the Skripals for use by the OPCW. Justice Williams included in his judgement a summary of the evidence which tells us, directly for the first time, what Porton Down have actually said:
The Evidence
16. The evidence in support of the application is contained within the applications
themselves (in particular the Forms COP 3) and the witness statements.
17. I consider the following to be the relevant parts of the evidence. I shall identify the
witnesses only by their role and shall summarise the essential elements of their
evidence.
i) CC: Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst
Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples
tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT.
The emphasis is mine. This sworn Court evidence direct from Porton Down is utterly incompatible with what Boris Johnson has been saying. The truth is that Porton Down have not even positively identified this as a “Novichok”, as opposed to “a closely related agent”. Even if it were a “Novichok” that would not prove manufacture in Russia, and a “closely related agent” could be manufactured by literally scores of state and non-state actors.
This constitutes irrefutable evidence that the government have been straight out lying – to Parliament, to the EU, to NATO, to the United Nations, and above all to the people – about their degree of certainty of the origin of the attack. It might well be an attack originating in Russia, but there are indeed other possibilities and investigation is needed. As the government has sought to whip up jingoistic hysteria in advance of forthcoming local elections, the scale of the lie has daily increased.
On a sombre note, I am very much afraid the High Court evidence seems to indicate there is very little chance the Skripals will ever recover; one of the reasons the judge gave for his decision is that samples taken now will be better for analysis than samples taken post mortem.
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The state and corporate media now have evidence of the vast discrepancy between what May and Johnson are saying, and the truth about the Porton Down scientists’ position. I am afraid to say I expect this to make no difference whatsoever to the propaganda output of the BBC.
The tests by the OPCW will most likely confirm what porton Down has found. The level of evidence will then be unchanged (exact chemical structure unknown, molecule fragments matching reported structure of one of the chemicals denoted as ‘novichok’, country of origin of chemical unknown) but this will triumphantly be spun by the MSM as the final confirmation of Theresa May’s accusations.. It’s all so damn easy when you have that Mighty Wurlitzer at your disposal….
Enormous kudos to Craig and others for standing up for the truth.
How do we know you exist, John? You could just be a bot based in Russia. Or Cheltenham. Or Langley.
You may be correct in your supposition that I am a complete idiot for giving Craig the time of day, but I’m not so sure you are. How do you feel about my a priori assumption that you are neither particularly open to debate nor strictly neutral in this matter?
Here’s a message for the heroic elites of EU countries who are saying they’ll expel Russian diplomats:
when you’ve got to expel diplomats, expel diplomats – don’t talk!
Now, we have got John Bolton himself running the show, he may finally achieve what his entire life has been aiming for. He probably doesn’t mind, but I do. Whilst trying to write this, I am playing with my 2 year old Grandson. He is a complete delight.
This film was made when I was 13 years old. This is the final scene. It hasn’t happenned yet, but with the current psycho’s in charge
it seems increasingly likely, unless they are arrested, and put on Trial, for War Crimes Against The Human Race.
“Dr Strangelove ending good quality”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bISIrij7zAw
Tony
Many thanks for an unbiased assessment of the events.
It’s nice to see that there are sane people, who have not been affected by anti-Russian hysteria.
I wouldn’t say “anyone but Russia” was unbiased.
And neither did (s)he.
Public Health England today – Any clothing worn when visiting Zizzi or The Mill on the two days in question that cannot be washed must be bagged up to await collection by the council who will destroy it. Compensation will be paid.
Can you imagine the fiddles? eg a a claim that a coat was bought from a designer and cost x£hundreds.
Sillier by the day and nearly three weeks further on.
Method acting, darling. 😉
They told them to wash them 2 weeks ago. if they haven’t they must by now stink. How can anyone take this crap seriously except The Russians, who must by now feel almost certain, that The Entire West has gone insane.. That is my analysis too. However, The Russians, may pull the trigger first,and sink all the battleships, before they let off their cruise missiles..
I am not suggesting this as a sensible course of action, just trying to see it from a Russian point of view.
This is not good.
It would be much easier and safer to arrest Boris.
Tony
If it weren’t Boris it would be someone else.
He’s just the on-air talent.
It’s the writers, producers and directors you need to be arresting.
But then, who’s gonna do that.
The whole system is corrupt.
“who’s gonna do that”?
Hopefully, the UK Police, who we employ, and pay their wages.
I strongly suspect, that many of them have children too, and don’t fancy them being vapourised, by the actions of the puppets.
There’s no chance of that happening.
None whatsoever.
Hi Tony
Long time no see, infact probably Conflict Desert Storm AGM was the last time.
Bunkum
The UK police are part of the ‘system’.
its evidence, it shouldn’t be washed or destroyed, the police should have requested all clothing be submitted for forensic tests
If this were serious – and CBRN weapons are serious – it would have been said right away.
They can’t penalise people for not keeping receipts, and they are unlikely to get pillocks from the council to don gas masks and use tongs to examine knickers to investigate whether they really did come from Harrods.
People should claim to the max. Council officials are doubtless lining their pockets.
Because he’s a former UK ambassador who worked in the FCO for a number of years and who destroyed his own career and livelihood to shed light on monstrous wrongdoing in government. Lends a certain weight.
because he has longstanding friends still working at the fco.
Complimentary analysis by OffG. Goes into a bit of much needed detail about the different type of nerve agents and how they relate to Novichok. Helps to clear up a bit of the (deliberately created?) confusion on the subject
https://off-guardian.org/2018/03/23/uk-high-court-ruling-on-skripals-shows-may-govt-has-been-lying-about-certitude-of-russian-state-involvement/
I have read Mr Justice Williams judgment having an interest in the MCA as well as in the Salisbury case, though II am not a lawyer. Some observations.
1. Though the application was brought ostensibly by the Home Office, it would have been the NHS Trust that made the (correct) decision not to allow any third party to obtain the samples without consent, thereby forcing the government’s hand to act to maintain the integrity and credibility of its initiative to involve OPCW. .
2. What then is puzzling is how Porton Down, which is nothing to do with the NHS obtained their samples, since the patients would not have been in any better position at the time the samples were taken to give their consent to that either. I can only suppose a clinical decision might have been taken to assist with the diagnosis.If that were the case the PD results should have been treated as clinical data and therefore subject to patient confidentiality, and certainly not disclosed publicly as they have been,
3 Justice Williams clearly skirts over these antecedents before tackling two legal issues, both of which having political undertones.The first was to agree that the proceedings should be carried out in private.But really why the secrecy? The second was to dismiss the need to have Russian representation join the proceedings in view of Yulia S. being a Russian citiizen (“negotiation obligation” issue). Given that the judge later commented on the Skripal’s isolation in hospital, the reverse decision might have been argued on best interest welfare grounds? Are n’t British consuls expected to look after Brits in trouble abroad?
4. The judgment itself is sound for the reasons cogently stated. Ironically the ambiguity of the PD chemical expert’s evidence certainly adds support to the importance of further independent testing. A positive test for novichok could only be possible if the sample was indeed a nerve agent, but since it might instead be a “related compound” it might not be a nerve agent at all, but an agent of a related compound! Wool pulling stuff.
5.I wonder if the retesting of the PD samples was more the result of OPCW insistence,since in some ways it falls outside the scope of the Trust application, though there was no formal opposition to it and the judge readily approved it (para 36) as a best interests decision, separating it from the rest of his judgment in para 37. Good for him despite the Home Secretary’s confidence that Porton Down’s ambiguity will be vindicated one way or another!
.
The judgment is NOT sound. It is a complete and utter crock. Here are three reasons why.
1) The fool judge acted as if Britain was not obliged to obey Article 37 of the 1963 Vienna Convention.
2) He should never have accepted the Official Solicitor as the representative of Yulia Skripal. No effort whatsoever was made to contact her relatives. It is a disgrace.
3) He was wrong to take her as living in England and Wales when he knows damned well her address is in Russia and also that she must have given her address when she applied for her visa. He did not have the jurisdiction he claimed.
The Society of Labour Lawyers should boot this joker judge out on his earhole.
Under your point 2 you raise an interesting question.
As for the OPCW “insistence”, it’s clear they cannot possibly confirm or reject any British conclusion about the substance unless they get the substance from source, because otherwise they might be testing any old crap some British posh boy gave them in a test tube.
Indeed I would go further and observe that the following combination of events is possible
* the Skripals were not attacked with a nerve agent on 4 March
* the Brits used a nerve agent against them later
“All’s fair in love and war”.
RE your final point:
‘the Brits used a nerve agent against them later’
According to Valter Litvinenko, his son Alexander had been poisoned several times even while he was in hospital. Anyone could enter the hospital, added Litvinenko’s father, noting that at first, his son had been diagnosed with food poisoning, then – thallium exposure, and subsequently there emerged reports on the use of polonium 210.
https://sputniknews.com/russia/201803201062741017-litvinenko-father-lugovoy-hug-murderer/
I agree on point 1 – even if it was already known that the Consulate was aware of the situation steps should have been taken to formally inform them to avoid accusations such as yours. However, the judge is right – it isn’t as though the consul wouldn’t already have known anyway.
The judgment also states that no member of the family had attempted to enquire as to their welfare with the hospital. Again, it isn’t as though relatives wouldn’t be aware of what happened and where they they were being treated is it?
Ultimately, the sole purpose of the hearing was to grant permission for blood samples to be taken in order to assist in an independent analysis, and that permission was granted – why would anyone want to criticise that?
Regarding the ambiguity of some phrases in the High Court judgment, I submitted this comment further up-thread but since it directly pertains to your argument here I am re-posting here. I have found in my profession that in reading legal documents, one should always opt for the WEAKEST reading possible if there is ANY ambiguity in the language. Hence the following.
There are two non-identical sentences describing the Skripals’ test results in the high court judgment. How should we read them, individually and in combination. Here is my guess:
I think the truth behind the first sentence is that the Skripals tested positive not for a nerve agent, but for a “related compound.” (Otherwise this phrase would not have been included at all.) This could mean EITHER that they tested possible for everyday chemicals that in certain combinations could be used to produce a nerve agent, but in this case were not, OR that they tested possible for a poison that is not a nerve agent at all, but a “related compound”–i.e. a “compound” (and not a simple element) that causes effects “related” to (but not identical with) those of nerve agents.
The second sentence is designed to weaken my skeptical reading of the first sentence without actually stating a lie, under conditions of plausible deniability. The second sentence states that they tested positive for “a Novichok class nerve agent” OR “a closely related agent.” The key to understanding the second sentence is that the adjective “nerve” need not be taken to modify the second use of the word “agent,” even though that is the most natural and plausible way to read the sentence for a native English speaker. Rather, a “closely related agent” could refer to a non-nerve agent–a different kind of poison–that is “closely related” to a “Novichok class nerve agent” in precisely the way that the “related compound” is related to “nerve agent” in the first sentence: i.e. it is an agent that produces or is intended to produce “closely related” (in the relevant sense) effects–sickness, poisoning, etc–to those of a nerve agent (Novichok class or otherwise).
So the two sentences are designed to obfuscate the truth without stating an outright lie under conditions of plausible deniability. And the lawyerly way to read them is to read them in the weakest way possible: the Skripals tested positive for a non-nerve-agent poison.
This reading would also seem to fit with the facts–about nerve agents, about the Skripals’ symptoms, about the timeline–as we now understand them. It also matches up with the much discussed Salisbury physician’s letter to the editor, which differentiates “poison” from “nerve agent” in just this way.
Excellent post, @WJ – and a very good spot that this rhetorical device is comparable to the one that Stephen Davies used in his letter to the Times.
“Related compound” could also refer to a less than complete set of components, perhaps even only one. Inclusion is a relation. Had they wanted to say “similar”, they could have.
It all points to an effort being made to lie us into war again, this time against a major nuclear power.
@WJ
This makes sense to me.
It would have been quite obviously clarifying to write :
“a Novichok class nerve agent” OR “a closely nerve related agent.” to make clear that they have suffered nerve agent poisoning of some kind.
As said, the scant evidence so far should leave us in doubt as to whether that is the case at all.
Thanks for great insight into legal textual analysis confirming many suspicions of – I was going to say ‘obfuscation’, but, perhaps, ‘skullduggery’ is more appropriate.
I feel that the chemical weapon ‘meme’ is intended to reinforce the ‘Evil Putin’ meme in our collective sub-consciousness. And this was then to render us, as a nation, more acquiescent with a planned assault by native Western forces into Syria (now that our ISIS-affiliated proxies have been all but driven out.)
I hear that the US has three maritime assault groups assembled and ready to launch from the Med., the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea – hence Tetesa Blairs haste tto escalate. But I think the Ruskies pre-empted this in four ways: 1. President Putin’s timely anouncement
of hypersonic nukes (designed like a well-aimed air-rifle at a hawk’s wing), 2. RT’s exposure of Syrian rebel chemical weapons labs, 3. Russia’s declaration that Western specialists were training Syrian terrorists to stage a chemical weapons ‘false flag’ as a pretext for invasion. Finally 4, The recent top brass tete-a-tete between the US and Rusdian military in which, no doubt, the cards were laid on the table.
“RT’s exposure of Syrian rebel chemical weapons labs, ”
1) RT are known liars who can’t even keep their message straight.
2) Whatever that facility was used for, it certainly wasn’t chemical weapons. The “gas canisters” were actually plastic carboys meant for holding liquids.
DDTea
“1) RT are known liars who can’t even keep their message straight.”
Who are you talking about the UK State?
Them too. But not half as crudely as RT.
Crude yes like Yuri Gagarin`s spacecraft but it works.It is in their nature.They are light years ahead in physics and they even invented the transistor ahead of America.
They’re light years ahead in disinformation as well. They’ve even managed to weaponize the idiots and tabloid mongers in western countries.
excellent comment and observations wj.. thank you..
@Crispa – What did you think of the following rubbish from judge David “Weasel” Williams?
“As a result of my having appointed a Litigation Friend for Mr and Ms Skripal I raised the issue with the parties of whether this gave rise to any notification obligation pursuant to Articles 36 and 37 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 24 April 1963 as Ms Skripal is a Russian national although Mr Skripal became a British national. In the field of care cases in the Family Court the President gave some guidance on this issue in In Re E (A Child) [2014] EWHC 6 (Fam). Mr Thomas QC submitted that as there is no domestic implementation of Art 37 no obligation arises. He also questioned whether the court could be a competent authority. He noted that the Convention is implemented by section 1 and Schedule 1 of the Consular Relations Act 1968 and that this does not include Article 37. I note that at paragraphs 41 and 44 in Re E (above) the President noted the issue in relation to the effect of Article 37 in public international and English domestic law. Mr Sachdeva QC drew my attention to the context in which the President offered the guidance and that it was guidance only for the purposes of care
cases in the family court. Both Mr Thomas QC and Mr Sachdeva QC also submitted that even if (and it is a very big if) that guidance could be transposed into the Court of Protection there was good reason for not imposing a notification obligation still less the other obligations the President identified in paragraph 47 of Re E. I am satisfied for the reasons set out above that there is no notification obligation in law on this court.”
You can read the judgment in Re E (A Child) [2014] EWHC 6 (Fam) here. At no time was it argued or ruled in that case that Article 37 is irrelevant because the Convention is implemented by Section 1 and Schedule 1 of the Consular Relations Act 1968 and “this does not include Article 37”. On the contrary, right at the beginning of the 1968 Act it is made clear that it implements the entirety of the Convention. And in sections 41 and 44 the judge in the 2014 case did NOT note an “issue” concerning Article 37. Nobody has ever questioned the fact that Britain is bound by Article 37 until MI6 stuck an arm up a judge David Williams’s arse and told the twat what words to squawk.
Judge Williams is one of 96 High Court judges in that Victorian Gothic pile, the Royal Courts of Justice, a dump.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Court_judges_of_England_and_Wales
The most recent figures issued by the Ministry of Justice show that judges are paid salaries on a scale between £85,954 and £252,079, the salary of the Lord Chief Justice, the head of the judiciary in England and Wales.
As a Lord Justice of Appeal, Lord Justice Gross is paid a salary of £206,742, which has risen from £202,668 in 2015. He has been sitting in the Court of Appeal since 2010. High Court judges are paid £181,566, while Old Bailey judges are paid £145,614.’
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/judiciary-needs-pay-rise-says-senior-judge-200k-salary/
@crispa
I’d imagine the difference is that, when Porton Down was given samples, there was an immediate risk to life, not only to the Skripals but to the general public, therefore there was an urgency and overriding valid reason for the substance to be identified.
yes, but no public warnings – no contamination area organised – no decontamination areas for those working on the investigation – no clear and concise messages – if it was all that risky why isn’t anybody dead?
We already know he is a pathological liar.
Theresa May and the [superior truths of a new british Empire](https://tomgard.blog/2018/03/23/anstelle-einer-fortsetzung/#comment-1272)
There isn’t yet a french transcription. I want to stress a key phrase by Macron:
” This requires a reaction, because otherwise the European Union will decide to no longer be sovereign, and we do not want that.”
How else should that be understood than May saying: Either you are with us and stay souvereign within those limits, or we bomb the shit out of you with “Novichok” ?
Macron is keen to retain good relations with l’Angleterre; otherwise is Europe doing more than just going through the motions to help an ally?
The UK is a NATO ally but an EU opponent, especially it opposes the ” Common Foreign and Security Policy” and therefore it is an opponent even at NATO level. That has been put straight now by means of a deadly nerve agent.
‘The UK is… an EU opponent, especially it opposes the ” Common Foreign and Security Policy”
Are you sure about this?
UK Column (ukcolumn.org) provide extensive evidence that the reverse is true. Control of UK armed forces are being transferred gradually, in an underhand manner, to Europe.
An excellent site by the way – ukcolumn.org.
The NATO Allied Supreme Command is not exactly “Europe”, although it’s HQ is, in fact, in Mons, Belgium.
That’s PESCO, but I thought the idea was that this Euro Army was to replace NATO.
So there’ll be a fight over that with the globalists, and if the UK is in then it’ll be no more than a Euro Army under globalist control.
Hello Mr Murray,
You have a most interesting website here and I might very well have given your views serious consideration were it not for the fact that the day after the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, President Vladimir Putin was quoted in RT as stating that treachery was the one crime he could never forgive. To me it is pretty obvious that this is a message to all potential traitors that if they betray Mother Russia the long arm of vengeance will reach out to punish them, wherever they may be. There are many less obvious ways of assassinating people than the use of lethal nerve agents, but they would not have the same dramatic effect would they?
“There are many less obvious ways of assassinating people than the use of lethal nerve agents, but they would not have the same dramatic effect would they?”
It is clear from just this one sentence that you know nothing about nerve agents and covert state operations.
The reference is to a documentary aired on or just before 11th March 2018. The Skripals were poisoned on 4th March 2018. I suppose it is possible that the relevant part of the documentary was filmed in the interim, but it seems most unlikely.
The BBC seems to qualify heavily the meaning of Putin’s words, suggesting that it is personal betrayal to which Putin is referring.
“In the film, Mr Putin says that he may forgive some things, “but not everything”.
When asked by Mr Kondrashov to clarify what cannot be forgiven, the Russian leader says: “Betrayal.”
However, Mr Putin says he has not yet had to deal with “serious events that can be called betrayal”.
Maybe I have chosen people who are not capable of doing such a thing,” he says.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43365800
I’m not suggesting that Putin does not have the ruthlessness to order such an assassination. No doubt he does. But is he damned silly enough to order it done in such a damned silly way? Not sure about that. In any case, I hardly think you can take this documentary as evidence that he did so. J
‘… they would not have the same dramatic effect would they?’
Why would Russia want a dramatic effect just before the World Cup? Especially, as according to Boris, the Russians are using the event to ingratiate themselves to the world, just like that awful chap Adolf did in the ’30s.
Would it not screw up the spook’s ‘get out of jail’ system if ex-jailed spies were being subsequently ‘slaughtered’. No trust, no more exchanges!
My understanding is that Sergei Scribal was sentenced to 13 years in jail & released after 10 years via an exchange programme. Why didn’t they give him a 200 years sentence to frighten other would-be traitors?
How many years do think he would have received in the USA for treason?
Well George Blake was sentenced to 42 years by Britain for much less.
As others have pointed out, your ‘dramatic effect’ argument is fatuous. This isn’t a James Bond film. Supposing Skripal had been assassinated with a simple double-tap to the head. These “potential traitors” you refer to – do you seriously think they would have gone around saying to each other “Wow. Did you see what happened to old Sergei? Double-tap to the head! Dreadful accident – and obviously nothing to do with Russia. So I’m safe. I can carry on regardless…”
Good to know that in spite of leaving the EU we are still in ” the West “, you know the criminal syndicate that has waged 30 years of continuous war against the Muslims. This false-flag poisoning is plan B for taking control of Syria after Russia stopped the West’s proxies in their tracks. The problem with the West is they under-estimate people’s capacity for mental algorithms. Nobody believes their antics any more, except of course their own hirelings. surprise surprise the EU hirelings are on the same page as Mrs May. We can all be irrelevant together. it doesn’t make Boris Johnson not a liar. It means there are 1000s of cloned liars who earn their living and position in society by saying yes to whatever trash comes out his lying gob.
Very true, but there is something a bit too pat about this whole thing. I think they are trying to encourage conspiratorial thinking so as to take the piss out of us later on. You have to put constantly on your guard against this shit show!
Also they have distracted from the “deal” that has a) in effect put Brexit back by two years and b) offered nothing better on the Irish question than a “fallback” of creating a customs and trade border between GB and NI, which would put an end to the DUP’s support for the government, however much money the party leadership might be shown under the table.
I am interested in why the OPCW had to go to the High Court. Would it not be part of standard medical procedure to take regular blood samples for monitoring in a case of poisoning? In which case an application to the High Court seems OTT. Or did the OPCW meet with resistance to their request for a blood sample that could, presumable be witnessed by themselves?
It’s to do with the purpose for which the samples are taken.
So, I’d imagine that consent is assumed for medical care but not for OPCW purposes.
There’s quite a famous example of this in the US where cops had been bullying staff for blood samples without warrant, and it came to a head when one cop arrested an on-duty head nurse for refusing him access.
Sometimes idiots are useful:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-nurse-arrest-refuse-police-detective-draw-blood-unconcious-patient-payout-salt-lake-city-alex-a8030776.html
It’s all to do with consent. The OPCW could not take samples from the Skripals without their consent. They can’t consent because of their current medical condition. Therefore the Court of Protection had to give that consent on their behalf. It’s standard procedure, used in many cases before where something that needs consent is to be done where that person cannot consent.
It’s not standard procedure for a court to appoint the Official Solicitor as an incapacitated person’s representative when neither the hospital nor any British authority has made any attempt to contact the person’s relatives.
Nor is it standard for a judge to delcare that he will act as if the person is resident in Britain when he knows full well that she is not – and when all he has to do is ask the Home Office what her Russian address is, because it was the Home Office that issued her visa.
Craig, as I recall not too long ago you publicly accused a journalist of lying and got into very hot water for it. Boris was talking about a verbal conversation, which might well have used stronger language than an official written report or affidavit would. So I suggest that you be more careful about saying things like that.
Well, if Johnson didn’t ly to DW, he was belied by Porton Down:
“However, the tests did confirm that a military-grade nerve agent had been deployed on the streets of Britain. A combination of this scientific analysis and other information would in turn lead to the government’s conclusion that it was highly likely Russia was behind the attack.”
BBC, “Inside the lab” http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43520534
I don’t think he will take Craig to court 🙂
Yes but Boris would have to prove it, that’s the point.
Politicians almost never sue.
They’ve no reputation to besmirch.
Snippets from the BBC tonight………….
There is “no way” any nerve agent held at the UK’s Porton Down lab could be linked to the poisoning of a Russian ex-spy and his daughter, the site’s chief executive has told the BBC.
Seems a little unprofessional for the site’s CE to say that.
In updated advice, Public Health England says people who had been in the Mill pub and Zizzi restaurant in Salisbury visited by the Skripals wearing clothing that can only be dry cleaned should arrange to have their items collected by the council.
It says anyone in either venue between 13:30 GMT on Sunday 4 March and closure on Monday should arrange to have their clothes collected by the council and they will be compensated.
PHE’s earlier advice had been to wash possessions as a precaution and double bag in plastic clothes that needed dry cleaning until further notice.
What is that all about??
More seriously…. the ICO will be exercising the warrant shortly.(see below) How about, you do it immediately before they have time to destroy all the evidence!!!!!!!
The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) has been granted a warrant to search the London offices of data analytics firm Cambridge Analytica.
An ICO spokesperson said it was “pleased” and plans “to execute the warrant shortly”.
Pass me the sick bag someone!
In true Craig Murray style, lets add some humour, after all, it’s been a depressing three weeks.. World politics and economics explained with the aid of two cows. Stay with it….you will start laughing by the time you get to Venture Capitalism. My wife was in tears and she doesn’t even understand economics! We all deserve a laugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYueM_mLPw
The point from Porton Down was that security is such that no toxic agent could have escaped. We believe that, don’t we?
When I worked in U.S. Air Force intelligence in Berlin during the Cold War, security searches on people leaving facilities were so perfunctory that it would have been easy to smuggle out Top Secret Codeword (I.e., very highly classified) materials with high confidence of not being caught. I never did, but it would have been possible.
lysias,
I was in the RAF at the same time and worked in Early Warning/Recognition, and was cleared up to Secret level. We used to watch the Russians come over the North Cape, between Iceland and Scotland and head down to Cuba. They did that maybe once a month – at the time it was known as the Milk Run (I have no idea why).
It amuses me no end when military Russian ‘planes or ships come within spitting distance of the UK now – when the inference is that the UK is about to be invaded, or that Russia is acting aggressively. It is all just par for the course, except over the intervening years, it is we who has become more fearful – not the Russians.
We’re not more fearful.
It’s just media ramping up the normal to make it look abnormal, creating the impression that the Russians are buzzing us much more than in the past.
If anything we’re giving them much more real grief than ever they did us.
Provocations hoping for a response.
A casus belli.
That’s why the story from Salisbury is so much bollocks.
The Russians are doing their utmost to follow the letter of international law to avoid such confrontations, because they’re the ones who don’t want war with NATO.
NATO must therefore resort to inventing incidents where Russia or whoever else is in the firing line, definly dun it, without evidence.
We’ve been watching replays of this drama for about ten years now, at least, so no excuse for not knowing the script by heart.
Dave,
“There is “no way” any nerve agent held at the UK’s Porton Down lab could be linked to the poisoning of a Russian ex-spy and his daughter, the site’s chief executive has told the BBC.”
I read that on ceefax earlier – it was the main headline. Daft as it may sound, it occurred to me that this statement was made on the grounds that as no-one would believe him anyway, then the opposite must be true i.e. that it was his intent to say what he said and how it was said as a means to convey that recent events are an almighty charade not that they are not – if that makes sense.
When you look at the wording Porton Down insisted on (“of a type developed…”) and the double caveat in the sworn statement to the High Court, you certainly don’t get the impression that the Porton Down people are going out of their way to back up the Government position.
So this could be a League of Gentlemen style “We didn’t burn him”.
The recent exercise could easily have given cover for something to go missing, too.
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/march/06/180306-toxic-storm-for-royal-marines-in-major-chemical-exercise
Royal Marines donned gas masks for three weeks as they tested Britain’s ability to fight in the event of a chemical – or, worse, nuclear – attack.
Troops from 40 Commando, based at Norton Manor, near Taunton, joined the country’s leading experts in Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear warfare to make sure they could cope in a worst-case scenario.
The three-week exercise included company-level attacks and various CBRN scenarios based on the latest threats for ultimate realism, such as a raid on a suspected chemical weapons lab.
It climaxes with a full-scale exercise involving government and industry scientists and more than 300 military personnel, including the RAF Regiment and the RM Band Service – casualty treatment was a key part of the Salisbury Plain exercise.
A chemical decontamination area was set up not merely to treat ‘polluted’ commandos, but also any wounded prisoners they may have brought in; once cleansed, casualties can be treated in field/regular hospitals.
Ultraviolet,
I just read the article in the link you provided – and nearly fell off my chair.
06 March 2018 – i.e. the exercise is currently ongoing as we speak. Which explains how and why the false flag events of Salisbury which were initiated on 4 March 2018 but not given much media publicity until two days later – i.e. 6 March 2018, were then suddenly able to draw on the numbers of chemical warfare experts from the Army and Royal Navy as they were seemingly able to.
I think you have hit on something in revealing this exercise – with its reasonably close proximity to Salisbury. Being ex-Forces myself, I thought it was decidedly ‘odd’ that so many specialist professionals from the military could or would be on hand, as it were waiting for a call to come.
It was not like that 40 years ago. We were all routinely trained on what was then referred to as NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) – and at times, we donned suits which predated those now being used by the ‘experts’.
It was the inference that units of such professionals even existed that made me think the reports in Salisbury (apart from any other considerations) was All Very Odd – when the greater truth is that it is normal squaddies from the Armed Forces who would be the ones to respond, not expert specialist units per se.
It is inconceivable that the numbers suggested as having assisted matters in Salisbury could or would exist. In a general sense, those serving in the military would be given training for a what-if scenario – so, although my understanding is based on events of 40 years ago and things will have changed a lot since then, far from the Armed Forces growing in numbers, they have been significantly reduced – making the likelihood of specialist NBC (or whatever they are now known by) units / teams even existing at all even more unlikely.
There must be other ex-military, perhaps even serving military respondents on this blog – it will be interesting to see what input they may also have on this matter.
To me, it was the suggested presence of so many military chemical ‘experts’ that came across as being highly questionable and unlikely. ‘Squaddies’ (incl. Navy ones) who have been kitted up, with some training – yes, but not teams of experts.
It is like saying that 200 doctors would be present at a football match – whilst one or two might be present, what is far more likely is that there may be higher numbers of people who might have some medical training who were present – which is not the same thing as saying that ‘200 doctors’ were present.
Destroying evidence?
Just watched the BBC radio item on Porton Down. At the end Gordon Carrera claims that the OPCW are looking at Porton Down’s investigation “including their conclusions of Russian involvement”. Is this a lie by the BBC or are the terms of reference wider than we think.
As far As I know the terms of reference have not been revealed.
O/T on this thread but discussed earlier. 18 agents working on behalf of the Information Commissioner have entered the premises of Cambridge Analytica to start an examination. A High Court wrangle has been going on all day.
Cambridge Analytica offices searched over data storage
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43522775
What a strange week it has been.
Yes and Colonial Palestine’s finger prints are all over it
Just curious (as ever): did anyone else hear the following from Boso:
“You also have to consider that Sergei Skripal is somebody who is being identified as a target for a liquidation …”
&
“a nerve agent of the kind that hasn’t been used in Europe since World War II, …” – Ehh?
Anyone got some citations to back Boso up? There must be someones here who can dig some evidence up?
Ta
“a nerve agent of the kind that hasn’t been used in Europe since World War II, …” – Ehh?
That explains the victims are still alive. Novichok seems to spoil a bit buried in underground canisters since WW2. Lost it’s qualities as a terrifying bio-weapon. lol.
He’s 83 accoring to the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist : which means (if I calculate correctly) he was 10 at the end of WWII in Europe. Bosos’ comment does seem odd as Vil Mirzayanov is meant to have been the creator of this mythical(?) nerve agent. A “Jinious” perhaps?..
Double locking my doors now 😉 .
Anyone got an opinion / source on the first boso point that “You also have to consider that Sergei Skripal is somebody who is being identified as a target for a liquidation …”
Just asking 🙂
Ta
The whole thing has been a Psy Op from the start to finish. The same pattern as the fabricated terror of the last few years. The reported events never add up correctly. Which tends to mean, it is most likely another Psy Op.
If the Skripals had been poisoned with a “Nerve Agent” at 1.40pm in their car, they would have most likely not have been able to go to Zizzi and the pub. The BBC stated that nerve agent traces were found at Zizzi and the pub. That alone raised a red flag, that the whole thing was another Psy Op, a made up lie. The same as the fabricated terror attacks supposedly carried out last year.
” Mr Skripal and his daughter arrived at the Sainsbury’s upper level car park at the Maltings shopping precinct at 13:40 GMT
Police said the pair went to The Mill pub before going to Zizzi restaurant at 14:20 GMT, staying until 15:35 GMT
At 16:15 GMT emergency services received the first report of an incident
Police found the pair on a bench outside Zizzi in an “extremely serious condition” 1
1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43315636
I wonder if the Skirpals managed to pay the bill at Zizzi? Did they pay contactless? 🙂 Both Skripals incoherent from a nerve agent attack, were able to stumble outside and get to the same bench. lol. You could only make this up! It cannot be true. A corrupt spook who has been shown to be corrupt, involved in a corrupt plot?……..never. “What kind of drink would you like Mr Skripal?” asked the waiter, “I’ll have a Vodka and Novichok”.
This Salisbury Psy Op must be exposed as a Psy Op, in order to help prevent any potential nuclear conflict. Theresa May must be completely corrupt, or controlled, in order to be letting this kind of stuff take place. Toying with a country with nukes. Another tyranny of a new cold war, for young people.
The World Cup is a perfect front to have hundreds or more, of real terror operatives or spooks, on the ground in Russia during the Summer.
(I’ve part posted this in the comments on the SCL / Cambridge Analytica piece too Craig. I’ve put it in here too, so more people can read.)
Oh man, you put forward the elements of an abasement of the public and common sense but you call it a “PsyOp”. While this is not false in the literal sense, why don’t you notice, that this notion contains a self-abasement?
TomGard, what are you suggesting – sorry didn’t quite get the self-abasement (in bold) bit. Enlighten us please.
If the publicity of the Salisbury affair defies common sense, then it could function as a “PsyOp” only if the public has already lost it’s common sense – or most of it, right?
Think we’re all on the same side here but still not clear what you mean. A PsyOp implies an act by the state against the public whatever or despite their conscious state of national or geo political manipulation. If they understand they are probably here, if not they are abased, not self-abased. That is they are abused by the state. ?
Perhaps “abasement” is the wrong word? Does it work with “disparagement”?
Ok, from the original response…
“If the publicity of the Salisbury affair defies common sense, then it could function as a “PsyOp” only if the public has already lost it’s common sense – or most of it, right?”
No, a PsyOp is a lie. They are designed to deceive the majrity of the target population. The public has not lost it’s common sense it has been deliberately decieved by the state.
We have to be aware that this does happen (look at the history) and that a nuance of “sheeple” doesn’t go down well (at least with me).
Oxymoron, no? This is why I am strongly in favour of Englishmen moving to live in Scotland, because it raises the average IQ in both countries…..
“The whole thing has been a Psy Op from the start to finish.”
I guess you mean the Salisbury poisoning. But what if the WHOLE THING is a psy op? By whole thing I mean Brexit-Trump-Five Star and all the strange political events of the last few years. The electorate has started to see through the corruption in the west, more and more people aren’t voting because they realise that democracy doesn’t change anything. What better way to teach the proles that they can’t take their governments for granted, they need to participate in elections if they don’t want disasters to happen and however bad they think Cameron, Obama and Renzi were, there’s much worse out there.
As Brexit pans out it will piss off more and more people that voted leave (the fishermen are already protesting about the withdrawal bill). Farmers and steel workers are protesting against Trump (and those are key groups that voted for him), whilst he is selling out his anti-war credentials by installing Bolton in the White House.
I can’t believe Five Star won’t go down the same route. Who’s next? is there another psy op on the way?
I cannot see why Trump is considered anti war. Look at his actions or rather inaction. The only remotely decent saving grace is that he is not anti Russia.
Trump supporters saw him as anti war because he isn’t Clinton, who is generally perceived as hawkish. That may have been a huge lack of judgment on their part, or things may have been worse under Clinton. Maybe the west wants to go to war and Brexit-Trump-Five Star are their scapegoat.
Reminds me of how traces of polonium were conveniently left in various areas in order to be found later and conveniently make up a trail.
Is there any actual proof that Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal are in fact being held in a hospital anywhere in this country (or any country for that matter)?
Who and what are our sources for their whereabouts?
No idea.
Updates here https://www.wiltshire.police.uk/article/1746/Salisbury-Incident-Updates or just give them a ring “If you need to contact Wiltshire Police from Scotland or abroad, please telephone 01380 826614 for non-emergencies.”
You’re welcome 🙂
Are you suggesting HM Government is misleading folk how very dare you, harruph, the way you are going on you would think this is something they have done before.
Of course they lie so often backed by the pathetic media everything they say is suspect.
Be safe sir, !ang may yer lum reek.
I have just spent a few hours watching the “Strike Back – Retribution” series on Sky (I don’t recommend it – it’s not a patch on the original Spooks series). I did this to see how “Novichok” was portrayed on TV. (the last episode aired in the UK on 28th Feb)
God, is this forever contrived! Good Guy superhero Bits, Ozzie and a Yank shooting and funking their way through seething hordes of devious Russians, sinister Islamists and treacherous bald-headed 007 extras.
And the Novichok: 10X more deadly than anything else, everybody within spitting distance keels over, convulses and – you guessed it! – starts foaming at the mouth, except for those who gain instantaneous relief (with no side effects or recovery period) from either using The Antidote ( of which there is only one vial…) or who are lucky enough to have a plucky ex-SAS sergeant close at hand who can pluck a coloured test tube out of a rack at random and miraculously save them that way.
I am not even remotely concerned that this is utter tripe, with an implausible plot and cardboard acting. What freaks me is that what we have seen in the immediate aftermath of the last episode is a continuation of the same nonsense in real life: seriously – it’s indistinguishable
I do not believe – in this instance at least – that Life mimics Art. Rather, just as the US military has a deep involvement in most things that come out of Hollywood, I seriously doubt that this series would have run for 6 seasons without some degree of official sponsorship. Put bluntly, I think both the timing and the subject matter are just too synchronised for this to be coincidental, and I am firmly of the opinion that “Strike Back – Retribution” is part of an ongoing psych op intended to frame such an incident in the public’s imagination, and to blur the distinction between fantasy and reality ‘a la Matrix’
What has been reported since 1st March bears no more resemblance to reality than what was shown on Sky up to 28th February, and I for one am not buying it. On the other hand, I can now list myself amongst the victims of Novichok insofar as it has demonstrably shortened my lifespan – those 5 hours wasted watching total jingoistic bullwhip are a part of my life I am never going to great back, and to be frank I feel that a part of me shrivelled and died whilst watching it. As a consequence, although I am not currently foaming at the mouth, I feel truly nauseous at what this once-proud country has become, and how low it’s political class are willing to stoop
Life always imitates art. Not that “art” is involved here.
I see that The Conversation has a whole series of articles on the subject, and that they are churning out more, written by people that call themselves professors or lecturers (very sad!), making all sorts of assumptions that nobody doing real research should be making, unless they are getting paid lots of cash, in which case they are prostitutes.
https://theconversation.com/uk/topics/sergei-skripal-50988
The concept of this website was once interesting, but I see that the chief editor is now having to defend himself against accusations of bias on the subject of the ucu strike actions. I also see he has a history with The Guardian and that several of the editorial board have backgrounds with The Daily Mail. Anyway, he sounds like a total fool, claiming that The Conversation has no editorial line and no agenda. Get real already.
Headline:
“Sergei Skripal attack: Russian Embassy is fuelling tensions with some very undiplomatic tweets”
Err…
“Sergei Skripal attack: UK Government is fuelling tensions with some very undiplomatic, globally reported and currently unevidenced assertions of guilt”
perhaps …
Hopefully all noise.
I liked the Russian embassy tweet of the letter that the Russian ambassador sent to police officer Nick Bailey. After the horrible attack in Salisbury and what seems to be the onward lurch to war, it’s certainly good news that Mr Bailey has left hospital and everyone should wish him well. The only criticism I would make is that the word “reckless” was wrongly chosen.
Their tweet about Telford though…I mean I get their point and they are quite right that the British government should protect British citizens – and it should protect guests and visitors in Britain too – but I don’t think the tweet works well from a PR point of view in any major intended market.
TSA
Thanks for watching this, what looks like a blueprint for this political drama. Your self sacrifice however is valuable as it has meant that others will not rush to see this for themselves and that this is all now documented. I wonder whether any journalists will dare to ask May or Johnson the question. Are you aware that the recent mention of novichok was only a few days ago in a badly written fictional programme, is your mentioning it so soon after the programme was aired a similar poorly made up fiction?
Well done Craig.
Retain your integrity.
I feel for the poor technical people at Porton being pressurised to lie.
We are a very sad little country now.
There is a 3 part BBC documentary from 2004 called “The Power of Nightmares” which is well worth watching as it provides a very good understanding of how geopolitics evolved from the 1940’s until today. It goes into some detail about the mass propaganda being employed by governments and others in power to influence public opinion.
Here is the link to the first episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg
I posted this up thread, but it’s worth repeating:
What if the WHOLE THING is a psy op? Not just the Salisbury poisoning, but Brexit-Trump-Five Star and all the strange political events of the last few years. The electorate has started to see through the corruption in the west, more and more people aren’t voting because they realise that democracy doesn’t change anything. What better way to teach the proles that they can’t take their governments for granted, they need to participate in elections if they don’t want disasters to happen and however bad they think Cameron, Obama and Renzi were, there’s much worse out there.
As Brexit pans out it will piss off more and more people that voted leave (the fishermen are already protesting about the withdrawal bill). Farmers and steel workers are protesting against Trump (and those are key groups that voted for him), whilst he is selling out his anti-war credentials by installing Bolton in the White House.
I can’t believe Five Star won’t go down the same route. Who’s next? is there another psy op on the way?
It’s such a relief reading this blog and all the comments.
Doing a search on “Skripal” posts in the last hour, I came across a letter from the Press Secretary of the Russian Embassy in Dublin.
“…Which methods (spectral analysis and others) were used by the British side to identify, within such a remarkably short period of time, the type of the substance used (“Novichok” according to the western classification)? As far as we know, to do that, they must have had a standard sample of such agent at their disposal.
And how do these hasty actions correlate with Scotland Yard’s official statements that “the investigation is highly likely to take weeks or even months” to arrive at conclusions?
What information and medical effects led to a hasty decision to administer antidotes to the Skripals and the British policeman?…”
It’s worth reading the whole letter:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/british-accusations-outrageous-1.3438134?mode=amp
Thank you, Craig.
But can you explain why there is such a virulent reaction from Boris. What is the origin and purpose of this anti Russia hysteria? Why is he saying that thinking of Putin enjoying the FIFA games makes him “puke”? it is almost an expression of racism or at least, disgust.
Don’t know anything, just thinkin’ aloud.
Miss Skripal arrived at Heathrow airport on Russian state owned Aeroflot flight AFL2570 from Moscow that landed at 2.32pm on Saturday March 3.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/20/friend-picked-yulia-skripal-airport-complains-weeks-left-police/
Yulia may or may not have worked at the US Embassy in Moscow and her boyfriend may or may not have worked for Russian Security Services.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514907/Sergei-Skripals-daughter-Yulia-dating-secret-service-agent.html
“Russian exile Valery Morozov told Sky News Mr Skripal had been in contact with the Russia and visited its London embassy once a month.”
https://news.sky.com/story/russian-spy-poisoning-search-moves-to-skripals-car-11281990
Max Najim, who owns a Russian food shop near Waterloo station in London, said he used to speak to Skripal once or twice a month when he came in to buy Russian sausages and pickled cabbage.
“He used to travel a lot,” said Najim. “He went to the US, France and Dubai. He described himself as a consultant who advised various companies on security.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/police-try-to-unravel-sergei-skripals-mystery-car-journey-35wqfqznt
Daughter of Russian (Double / Treble)? Agent comes to UK for a visit. Whatever she is bringing with her apparently gets through both Moscow AND Heathrow Security Checks. (3rd March)
The Skripal pair’s whereabouts are known to the police at 1.00pm on Sun 4th but they appeal to the public for any information of their whereabouts between 1.00pm and 1.40 when they arrive at the Salisbury carpark. Where the police believe the Skripals (or their car) was at 1.00pm was not revealed nor was how they knew (sighting / cctv / mobile phone data).
But later it is revealed that the pair were off the radar from about 9.15am and made a further appeal which provided a lead from a security camera on a pub on Devizes Rd Salisbury at 1.32pm, just a few minutes from the carpark.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5501599/Had-poisoned-New-CCTV-shows-Sergei-Skripals-car.html
So there is a big gap in location knowledge that the “police” were trying to fill but the important ones are 9.15 – 13.00 and 13.00 – 13.32.
We can assume that surveillance had failed between these times and that the cars locations = the Skripals locations which may, of course. not be true.
Still just thinking
Yulia is bringing something into the UK. Security people in Russia and the UK ensure a safe passage and presumably want to trace the movements of the package (not Yulia) so the Russians would have a distinct advantage of tracking both Yulia and the package if both had been tagged (individually)
Something went wrong, the Russians and / or the Brits were playing a double cross. Or one or the other thought they were.
It has to be assumed that whoever Yulia was actually working for (on that occasion) got the package delivered to who / where they wanted it to go
The evidence (to me) says the Russians got wind of something and screwed British plans. The package contained a Military Grade Toxin. And the Brits don’t know where the fuck it is.
Novichoks can be anything you want them to be but in general terms they are a group of 3rd and 4th generation Incapacitating agents that include “Nerve Agents”. And a sub group that are Binary mechanisms.
Differing effects and symptoms arise from the differing mix of compounds but in the case of the Skripal package it may have had acetylcholinesterase inhibitor properties but NOT be classed as a “Nerve Agent”. This I think poor Dr Stephen Davies unwittingly picked up on and blew the whistle without realising it. What it appears they are dealing with in Salisbury is a Novel toxin so could be given moniker Novichok but in reality is probably not part of the Russian programm from 20 / 30 years ago. What I suspect they have is a high grade extreme toxin that requires intimate contact. It is not designed to kill quickly. Mine fields are designed to maim not kill for that reason, alive casualties are far more useful in a conflict scenario than dead ones.
But does it mean Russia designed and developed this stuff? No! The Russians could have got hold of some. They may have got a sample from somewhere and cloned it and offered to share their discovery with the UK. If eg the source was actually the US per se, a little trap may have been laid for the Skripals which the Russians worked out and turned the tables.
Just thinkin’ out aloud.
So the lady doctor who attended them on the park bench was completely unaffected.?
And how and why did they contaminate themselves?
Anybody who thought we were enemies with Russia,,[ which is a very important point for you to remember BTW ] has only to look at Russia turning a blind eye to NATO Turkey taking the Syrian city of Afrin and , unknown numbers killed and raped etc,, driven 200,000 people into the wilderness with nothing to live on.
Seems a funny kind of enemies game to me. Is it time for teas and doughnuts, because the hostile rhetoric on Syria seems to have gone quiet?
All I can say is, if China, Russia, Iran and Turkey + the EU want the Chinese new Silk Road to run through Iran and Turkey, they had better watch that the Muslim Brotherhood infection does not put their poison into their bloodstream. They were supposed to be fighting Syria to prevent USUKIS proxies getting stronger and being re-deployed against Russia and China. Now it looks as though China thinks it can embrace the mecca of Islamist.Jihad with Sultan Erdogan at its head. For a country that doesn’t believe in God, it might not be so easy to embrace a religion that believes in using non-Muslims as sex-slaves. There again chacun a son gout. Someone please ask the residents of Ghoutta if the departing Islamists believe in the Most Generous, the Most Merciful, Living God.
giyane
The Afrin, Turkey Situation has always Bothered me.. Last I read the Syrian Army were about to retake Afrin.
Some things deffo seem warrped, and your point to me Correctly focuses on one of them.
.
giyane and brianfujisan – syria is a complicated dynamic to understand and in particular the role turkey has played.. they have played a double game in it all, hoping to use usa or russia, but really they are more like a pawn in the usa and russias hands.. there are a number of ways to look at this and many of the insights i have gained over the past few years has come from a collective of comments at moon of alabama and pat langs site – sst.. if you are really interested in all the nuances, you might want to visit those 2 websites for a better understanding..
Giyane, reminding the NATO – Turkey – Afrin context is very suitable here, but please don’t forget, Turkey is still a NATO member. Russia can’t stop Turkey by military means as long as it is not attacked by Turkey. It might surprise you, but “Putin” can’t declare war on Turkey as he pleases – let me tell you, that confronting Turkey would mean an instant end to the Russian Federation, because it would break up CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States. Kasachstan would simply leave it and made this perfectly clear.
That leaves you and me with the fact of a Proxy War over Afrin that opposed … NATO (EUCOM) versus US (CENTCOM)!
Think about that!
TomGard
I want to know how come Mrs May can use war-like language against Russia , without any evidence, but Russia cannot object strongly to Turkey-NATO’s attack on a Syrian city. Mrs May and her pipsqueak defence Secretary Gaffe Williamson, both short on education, while Eton only teaches droit de seigneur and British Imperial might?