What is left of the government’s definitive identification of Russia as the culprit in the Salisbury attack? It is a simple truth that Russia is not the only state that could have made the nerve agent: dozens of them could. It could also have been made by many non-state actors.
Motorola sales agent Gary Aitkenhead – inexplicably since January, Chief Executive of Porton Down chemical weapons establishment – said in his Sky interview that “probably” only a state actor could create the nerve agent. That is to admit the possibility that a non state actor could. David Collum, Professor of Organo-Chemistry at Cornell University, infinitely more qualified than a Motorola salesman, has stated that his senior students could do it. Professor Collum tweeted me this morning.
The key point in his tweet is, of course “if asked”. The state and corporate media has not asked Prof. Collum nor any of the Professors of Organic Chemistry in the UK. There simply is no basic investigative journalism happening around this case.
So given that the weapon itself is not firm evidence it was Russia that did it, what is Boris Johnson’s evidence? It turns out that the British government’s evidence is no more than the technique of smearing nerve agent on the door handle. All of the UK media have been briefed by “security sources” that the UK has a copy of a secret Russian assassin training manual detailing how to put nerve agent on door handles, and that given the nerve agent was found on the Skripals door handle, this is the clinching evidence which convinced NATO allies of Russia’s guilt.
As the Daily Mirror reported in direct quotes of the “security source”
“It amounts to Russia’s tradecraft manual on applying poison to door handles. It’s the smoking gun. It is strong proof that in the last ten years Russia has researched methods to apply poisons, including by using door handles. The significant detail is that these were the facts that helped persuade allies it could only be Russia that did this.”
Precisely the same government briefing is published by the Daily Mail in a bigger splash here, and reflected in numerous other mainstream propaganda outlets.
Two questions arise. How credible is the British government’s possession of a Russian secret training manual for using novichok agents, and how credible is it that the Skripals were poisoned by their doorknob.
To take the second question first, I see major problems with the notion that the Skripals were poisoned by their doorknob.
The first is this. After what Dame Sally Davis, Chief Medical officer for England, called “rigorous scientific analysis” of the substance used on the Skripals, the government advised those who may have been in contact to wash their clothes and wipe surfaces with warm water and wet wipes. Suspect locations were hosed down by the fire brigade.
But if the substance was in a form that could be washed away, why was it placed on an external door knob? It was in point of fact raining heavily in Salisbury that day, and indeed had been for some time.
Can somebody explain to me the scenario in which two people both touch the exterior door handle in exiting and closing the door? And if it transferred from one to the other, why did it not also transfer to the doctor who gave extensive aid that brought her in close bodily contact, including with fluids?
The second problem is that the Novichok family of nerve agents are instant acting. There is no such thing as a delayed reaction nerve agent. Remember we have been specifically told by Theresa May that this nerve agent is up to ten times more powerful than VX, the Porton Down developed nerve agent that killed Kim’s brother in 15 minutes.
But if it was on the doorknob, the last contact they could possibly have had with the nerve agent was a full three hours before it took effect. Not only that, they were well enough to drive, to walk around a shopping centre, visit a pub, and then – and this is the truly unbelievable bit – their central nervous systems felt in such good fettle, and their digestive systems so in balance, they were able to sit down and eat a full restaurant meal. Only after all that were they – both at precisely the same time despite their substantially different weights – suddenly struck down by the nerve agent, which went from no effects at all, to deadly, on an alarm clock basis.
This narrative simply is not remotely credible. Nerve agents – above all “military grade nerve agents” – were designed as battlefield weapons. They do not leave opponents fighting fit for hours. There is no description in the scientific literature of a nerve agent having this extraordinary time bomb effect. Here another genuine Professor describes their fast action in Scientific American:
Unlike traditional poisons, nerve agents don’t need to be added to food and drink to be effective. They are quite volatile, colourless liquids (except VX, said to resemble engine oil). The concentration in the vapour at room temperature is lethal. The symptoms of poisoning come on quickly, and include chest tightening, difficulty in breathing, and very likely asphyxiation. Associated symptoms include vomiting and massive incontinence. Victims of the Tokyo subway attack were reported to be bringing up blood. Kim Jong-nam died in less than 20 minutes. Eventually, you die either through asphyxiation or cardiac arrest.
If the nerve agent was on the door handle and they touched it, the onset of these symptoms would have occurred before they reached the car. They would certainly have not felt like sitting down to a good lunch two hours later. And they would have been dead three weeks ago. We all pray that Sergei also recovers.
The second part of the extraordinarily happy coincidence of the nerve agent being on the door handle, and the British government having a Russian manual on applying nerve agent to door handles, is whether the manual is real. It strikes me this is improbable – it rings far too much of the kind of intel they had on Iraqi WMD. It also allegedly dates from the last ten years, so Putin’s Russia, not the period of chaos, and the FSB is a pretty tight organisation in this period. MI6 penetration is just not that good.
A key question is of course how long the UK has had this manual, and what was its provenance. Another key question is why Britain failed to produce it to the OPCW – and indeed why it does not publish it now, with any identifying marks of the particular copy excluded, given it has widely publicised its existence and possession of it. If Boris Johnson wants to be believed by us, publish the Russian manual.
We also have to consider whether the FSB really publishes its secret assassination techniques in a manual. I attended, as other senior FCO staff, a number of MI6 training courses. One on explosives handling was at Fort Monckton, not too far from Salisbury. One in a very nondescript London office block was on bugging techniques. I recall seeing rigs set up to drill minute holes in walls, turning very slowly indeed. Many hours to get through the wall but almost no noise or vibration. It was where I learnt the government can listen to you through activating the microphone in your mobile phone, even when your phone is switched off. I recall javelin like directional microphones suspended from ceilings to point at distant targets, and a listening device that worked through a beam of infra-red light, but the target could foil by closing the curtains.
The point is that there were of course no manuals for this stuff, no manuals for any other secret MI6 techniques, and these things are not lightly written down.
I would add to this explanation that I lost all faith in the police investigation when it was taken out of the hands of the local police force and given to the highly politicised Metropolitan Police anti-terror squad. I suspect the explanation of the remarkably convenient (but physically impossible) evidence of the door handle method that precisely fits the “Russian manual” may lie there.
These are some of the problems I have with the official account of events. Boris lied about the certainty of the provenance of the nerve agent, and his fall back evidence is at present highly unconvincing. None of which proves it was not the Russian state that was responsible. But there is no convincing proof that it was, and there are several other possibilities. Eventually the glaring problems with the official narrative might be resolved, but what is plain is that Johnson and May have been premature and grossly irresponsible.
I shall post this evening on Johnson’s final claim, that only the Russians had motive.
Update: I have just listened to the released alleged phone conversation between Yulia Skripal in Salisbury Hospital and her cousin Viktoria, which deepens the mystery further. I should say that in Russian the conversation sounds perfectly natural to me. My concern is after the 30 seconds mark where Viktoria tells Yulia she is applying for a British visa to come and see Yulia.
Yulia replies “nobody will give you a visa”. Viktoria then tells Yulia that if she is asked if she wants Viktoria to visit, she should say yes. Yulia’s reply to this is along the lines of “that will not happen in this situation”, meaning she would not be allowed by the British to see Viktoria. I apologise my Russian is very rusty for a Kremlinbot, and someone might give a better translation, but this key response from Yulia is missing from all the transcripts I have seen.
What is there about Yulia’s situation that makes her feel a meeting between her and her cousin will be prevented by the British government? And why would Yulia believe the British government will not give her cousin a visa in the circumstance of these extreme family illnesses?
Two key issues are:
1. The police must know exactly how DS Bailey became contaminated but have obviously not released this information. It is inconceivable that he was found and treated and recovered very quickly unless his movements were traced. When investigating the police will always be in touch with base or a colleague and this electronic traffic must all be logged. So why is this information kept secret?
2. At no point have the police ever discussed that they are seeking a suspect, apart of course from Vladimir Vadimirovic. Without an actual rather than a general hazy suspect, the police cannot even try to build a case and a picture of what happened. A suspect on the loose with a lethal substance is a rather major hazard to the general public yet no alarm was raised. This suggests that the police are confident that there was no suspect at large and the poison can only have come from one of the three affected individuals or from another source known to the police or secret services.
“At no point have the police ever discussed that they are seeking a suspect, apart of course from Vladimir (Vladimirovich).”
Indeed. They haven’t said they’re seeking any suspects, but they’ve insisted like foot-stampers that they want to reorient British defence policy as a result of this affair. What should we conclude.
A government spokesperson said
“When a vet was able to access the property, two guinea pigs had sadly died. A cat was also found in a distressed state and a decision was taken by a veterinary surgeon to euthanise the animal to alleviate its suffering.”
Here we see the recourse to “professionalism” (reference to “a vet”), and the use of words such as “able”, “access” and “property” to mean “could get into the house”. We also see an insistence that kindness was always the main consideration. What we don’t see is an APOLOGY, not even one of the usual “spit in the face” type, saying “for any inconvenience caused”. They locked up pets in a house and let them starve. That is an absolute disgrace. It is also a CRIME under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. It would be a crime regardless of whether the owner was a victim of a crime or a criminal. If there were any proper journalists, they would be getting quotes from the RSPCA.
Cartoonist Steve Bell has a go at communicating better in Comment is Free part of the Guardian – where comments aren’t allowed ,?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/apr/05/steve-bell-on-boris-johnson-and-the-sergei-skripal-poisoning-cartoon
Years ago they changed it’s name to “Comment is feared… and facts are secret”.
Does anyone have a link to the tv show where:
“Viktoria appeared on several Russian talkshows on Wednesday, including one with Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, both accused in the 2006 poisoning of the former spy Alexander Litvinenko in London.”
I’m curious to hear what do Andrei and Dmitry say about being accused of killing AL.
And what Viktoria said on various programs.
https://youtu.be/zIaD8drTkN8
Nothing of great importance though. And it is in Russian obviously 🙂
Yeah too bad I don’t speak Russian.
It would be interesting to get more of a feel for how this is playing out in the Russian media.
Hopefully one day AI will be good enough to immediately translate/subtitle videos.
settings->subtitles->russian (auto-generated) then go into settings again and do subtitles->auto translate and select English. Et voila!
Wow.
You just blew my world open and made it a lot smaller at the same time.
thanks
again, I’m watching the UN Security Council meeting.
Someone took “play with fire” phrase and made several artickles, e.x. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43662421 I can’t understand, do they do it on purpose? Are they serious?
The accurate words by Nebenzia are “вы играли и заигрались”. One can’t translate it like ‘playing with fire’. It must be ‘you had fun playing this game and have lost sence of reality’.
I wonder who is the interpretor, couldn’t they find a better professional for such an important meeting?
I’ve noticed Nebenzia had to correct the interpretor several times.
Tatyana, I apologise on behalf of my country for this charade, game, эрунда, because my country will not. We used to have diplomats who actually behaved like diplomats. Since the start of the century our lies have grown and grown like the nose of Pinnochio so that now they are plain for all to see. I shame for how the rest of the world must view us. We are just as bad as our masters in the United States. Sorry.
Not in my name!
Thanks for your help … as ever.
Now that’s a surprise!
Even I as a non-native Russian speaker understand this easily.
It’s not exactly difficult to translate literally. You are correct… this is worrying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuYU5bARlx8
here 10:25, 15:52 Nebenzia listens to the interpretor, repeats russian phrase, and at last helps the correct english word himself
———
I’m sorry for a mistake in my above comment. The exact words by Nebenzia are at 11:38
“Мы говорили нашим британским коллегам, что вы заигрались и доиграетесь, потому что одно дело – выдвигать не подкрепленные никакими доказательствами обвинения, а совсем другое – переходить на разговор на профессиональном языке, который подразумевает не мегафонную дипломатию, а ясные ответы на обоснованные вопросы.”
I studied languages and communications long ago and had little practice since graduation in 2000, nevertheless I’ll try to provide the correct translation:
“We have told our British partners: you’ve been playing for too long and you will have it done; because – one can bring up allegations that are not supported by any evidence, and quite different story is – to move to a conversation in a professional language, which does not imply megaphone diplomacy, but clear answers to reasonable questions.”
the connotation of this russian idiom “играл и доигрался” is “You’ve really done it this time with your games”
We have told our British colleagues – you have “заигрались” and you will be “доиграетесь”.
“Заигрались” – lost connection to reality doing something, irresponsibly went too far doing something, doing something despite pain/problems it causes to the others.
“Доиграетесь” – result of “заиграетесь”. Kid who fell on the floor trying to stand on the chair while balancing it on one leg – “доигрался”. Thug who stole from casino and got beaten/killed – “доигрался”.
Whole phrase should have been translated as
We told out British colleagues – your behavior WAS irresponsible and it WILL hit you i the back one day.
Not a threat but observation.
We have told our British colleagues – you have “заигрались” and you will be “доиграетесь”.
“Заигрались” – lost connection to reality doing something, irresponsibly went too far doing something, doing something despite pain/problems it causes to the others. Often implies that one who “заигрался” is way too full of oneself, smug and this overconfidence is a reason of “misbehaviour”.
“Доиграетесь” – result of “заиграетесь”. Kid who fell on the floor trying to stand on the chair while balancing it on one leg – “доигрался”. Thug who stole from casino and got beaten/killed – “доигрался”.
Whole phrase should have been translated as
We told out British colleagues – your behavior WAS irresponsible and it WILL hit you i the back one day.
Not a threat but observation.
Thank you, Steve, it is exactly what I tried to feature – not a threat!
Saying “you play with fire and you’ll be sorry” – this translation is totally wrong and adds emotions and meanings not presented in russian original.
“вы заигрались и доиграетесь”
You played about seeking an advantage and it is finishing badly.
@Steve – It’s present tense not future.
In fairness to the translator, the English idiom in full is “If you play with fire you are going to get burnt”. Obviously it was not a literal translation. But to say:
“Мы говорили нашим британским коллегам, что вы заигрались и доиграетесь . . .”
which might be translated as “We said to our British colleagues, that you have been playing a game and played yourselves out . . .” where “game” is implied it seems reasonable to say “You have been playing with fire” where the additional “and got yourselves burnt” is implied. Do you think that is what was meant? Russia Today has also been using the phrase in connection with the UN representative so perhaps the interpreter did a good job.
Perhaps Mr Goss could advise on what is the Russian idiom for a snow job?
Or perhaps We should ask Peskov?
@John Goss
what is meant is:
you’ve been playing your game (bringing accusation with no proof) and got so much involved into the game that you’ve lost connection to reality (заигрались). You’ll be dissapointed with the outcome when the game is over, but there will be none to blame except your own carelessness. (доиграетесь)
In ‘доиграетесь’ the grammar voice is Active. No second party is meant to influence the outcome.
Nebenzia explains the meaning of the idiom in the second part of the sentence: to play game – to accuse without evidence; to have the game over – to deal the case professionally, to stand reasonable questions and to give clear answers, instead of foolish ‘megaphone diplomacy’ (shout out very loud, so that your opponent cannot be heard at all)
Thanks Tatyana for your explanation.
“потому что одно дело – выдвигать не подкрепленные никакими доказательствами обвинения, а совсем другое – переходить на разговор на профессиональном языке, который подразумевает не мегафонную дипломатию, а ясные ответы на обоснованные вопросы.
“because it is one thing to make charges without any actual evidence, and quite another to come across and talk in a professional language, without megaphone diplomacy, but clear answers to well-founded questions.”
On reading the above I understood much of it but took a little help from Yandex translate. 🙂
My original language is related to Russian, thus что вы заигрались и доиграетесь would be closest to English: you over played and got carried away, or more freely translated as you went over the limits of a game. Definitely not an expressed or implied threat, then perhaps a warning of a teacher to a restless student that there are limits. Naturally, the mistranslation is a deliberate ancient trick, an Israeli and servant favorite. Remember Ahmadinejad’s: “wipe Israel off the map”. Then, specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html?utm_term=.6089eb8c52ae
No mention of the Skripal case in this morning’s news. Is that it then? Now the UK government has been rumbled the story is dead only to be resurrected a month or so before the World Cup starts.
In the Guardian, the i and the Times.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers
oh and Murdoch again, in the Sun, about the pets.
Thanks Sharp Ears. The BBC did not mention any of the papers which carried a Skripal story. I think they will pretty well leave it alone now until their media “spinsters” can come up with something plausible. They have so much egg on their faces it looks like Easter!
Just as they did with re-opening of the Litvinenko case in 2017, remember ?
It had been dormant for few years, and then in 2017 ‘suddenly’ the case was resurrected, did it happened around the time when fake Syrian gas attack ‘happened’ ? Or was that a prelude to the fake gas attack and the consequent Trump’s cruise missile attack?
Mr Goss was obviously referring to the Putin controlled media he frequents and not our free press.
Free press? The best early morning laugh I’ve had in ages. Keep ’em coming. Second thoughts-don’t.
One thing the English and Russians share is a well developed sense of irony. Clearly you don’t.
See April 6, 2018 at 13:27 to learn you are as culpable as our spooks, “free press” and Tory government at jumping to conclusions.
After that as a purported Labour supporter you might like to see if your MP is on this list of traitors.
https://www.facebook.com/john.gossip/posts/10157203733987646
I have a feeling there is a lot more in this one as it is intended that people rise up against the government to stop Brexit.
The plutonium incident and the current one have similarities. They use agents ‘traceable ‘ to Russia or apparently so. They also share the contamination trail detection. This means that a story can be built on this trail. But you would have thought that by now the FSB would have learnt by now to use something less obviously traceable wouldn’t you? Theo’s whole episode suggests that the purpose of these actions are to frame Russia.
Why hasn’t Amber Rudd not made a single statement since the 12th March, nearly a month ago?
Is she not the home Secretary?
And why no media puzzlement over this?
Ms Rudd is eyeing Number 10. The whole plot has been cooked up by Jacob Rees-Mogg to create carnage amongst the Tory leadership contenders. However, when a small box of snuff was found lying beside the park bench Amber Rudd was informed by police and she immediately worked out who was behind the attack.
By staying silent she is keeping her candidacy alive and stands as the only obstacle to the Moggster making it Francis Urquhart-like to the top.
LOL!!!
Why hasn’t Amber Rudd not made a single statement since the 12th March, nearly a month ago?
As Theresa May’s clone there has been no need.
Why complicate things.
The senior part of the neo lib duplicate has been in charge.
The clone knows her place.
Mental Malcolm Rifkind on BBC Radio 4 Today on Jeremy Corbyn and Salisbury this morning.
Totally mental, as always!
No matter how disastrously wrong he’s been on a consistent basis, no matter how decisively he is proven corrupt, Sir Malcolm will always be the BBC’s ultimate go-to guy on world affairs. More Newsnight appearances than any other politician in the programme’s history.
Sir Malcolm will always be the BBC’s ultimate go-to guy on world affairs. More Newsnight appearances than any other politician in the programme’s history.
Sir Malcolm represents Britain’s ‘deep state’.
Thats why.
Hardly a closed secret these days.
Simples.
Is that the Trusted and Reliable Sir Malcolm Rifkind?, late of the HoC and late as the chairman of parliament’s intelligence and security committee for independent neutral analysis *
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-access-scandal-sir-malcolm-rifkind-to-step-down-as-mp-for-kensington-and-chelsea-10066651.html
* that was many years ago, in a country far-far-away, before Teresa & Boris started playing ‘unicorn’ leap-frog with armed and corrupt Bears and of course, a Trusted & Reliable HoC Committee later found everyone ‘honest and not-guilty, guv’
As part of the sting, Rifkind reportedly claimed to be able to gain “useful access” to every British ambassador in the world. Journalists recorded him describing himself as self-employed, even though he earned a salary of £67,000 as MP for Kensington: “I am self-employed – so nobody pays me a salary. I have to earn my income.”
The HoC clearance committee [standards committee] of MPs said, however, that the rules permit MPs to seek outside employment. Sir Rifkind was found completely honest and above board and not-at-all tarred with something-of-the-night, or anything non-virtuous, at all, at all.
The broadcasters accepted the whitewash; “Channel 4 Dispatches stands by its journalism; this was a fair and accurate account of what the two MPs said. This investigation was in the public interest and revealed matters which were of serious public concern,” the broadcaster said. The Telegraph said: “The Daily Telegraph conducted an investigation that was in the public interest and accurately revealed matters … of concern to millions of voters. We raised a number of serious questions about the conduct of members of parliament. We suspect voters will find it remarkable that, despite the scandal of MPs’ expenses, parliament still sees fit for MPs to be both judge and jury on their own conduct.”
A zionist to boot methinks.
Can I ask you to check the weather in Salisbury that day. Records show there was little rain that day… or are we saying the government changed the records?
Car was snowed in on Saturday. Melting snow produces liquid water.
Just as a matter of interest, why would anyone over the age of five need a ‘manual’ to explain to them how to smear something on a door handle?
What’s chapter 2 of the manual – how to take down your trousers and your underpants before you have a shit?
… to assasinate an ex-spy you must fulfill the following steps:
1. come to the spy’s house and try to be invisible in you full chem-defence suit.
2. if asked by passers-by about your appearance just answer you’re having a masquerade party here tonight
3. approach the entrance and find the door handle
4. open your chem-def container and pour the liquid onto the handle
5. remember of ‘masquerade’ legend, so pretend to be careless and having fun
Re Gary Aitkenhead. Firstly, comments are turned off on the YouTube clip.
Secondly, what he is describing seems to be real time monitoring of mobile phone locations.
The sort of thing that GCHQ involve themselves with. Curiouser and curiouser.
Anyone have access behind the Times paywall please? I’d love to know how the UK ‘knows’ that this poison was manufactured at a particular place.
Salisbury poison ‘made at Russia’s Porton Down’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/salisbury-poison-made-at-russia-s-porton-down-7p7kfcs3c
I register for two free articles a week. I copied it on to TLN.
http://members5.boardhost.com/xxxxx/msg/1522996984.html
Thanks mary, I was thinking the source of this info must well be an insider (past or present) much like those WMD in Iraq. Unless the UK has current access to their labs it is just hearsay! Seems risky to bet the farm (as we have) on the strength of one individual.
I love the detail that “The facility also contains shops, hospitals and schools”!
Because MI6 says so. It doesn’t say more than that.
Salisbury poison ‘made at Russia’s Porton Down’
Catherine Philp, Diplomatic Correspondent
April 6 2018, 12:01am, The Times
The Shikhany research base, 500 miles from Moscow, is thought to have produced the novichok poison. The facility also contains shops, hospitals and schools
A Russian military research base has been identified as the source of the nerve agent used at Salisbury in a British intelligence briefing for its allies, The Times has learnt.
It was used to persuade world leaders that Moscow was behind the poisoning and said that the novichok chemical was manufactured at the Shikhany facility in southwest Russia.
The briefing led to the expulsion of more than 150 Russian diplomats from 28 countries. Also included was information suggesting that Shikhany, Russia’s equivalent of the defence laboratory at Porton Down, was used during the past decade to test whether novichok could be effective for assassinations abroad. The weapons-grade nerve agent was used to poison the former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, a month ago.
The stockpiles detected at Shikhany were far smaller than would be used in a battlefield weapon, suggesting their use in targeted killings. Hamish de Bretton Gordon, the former commander of Britain’s Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear Regiment, who has seen the intelligence, called it very compelling. “The intelligence Britain has clearly points to Russia and Shikhany,” he said. “No doubt the Russians are scrubbing it down as we speak.”
Mr de Bretton Gordon said that there was nothing to support claims that novichok could have come from elsewhere in the former Soviet Union, such as Ukraine or Uzbekistan.
Yesterday Ms Skripal spoke publicly for the first time since the poisoning, saying that her strength was “growing daily” in a statement released by the Metropolitan Police on her behalf.
Officials were working to determine the authenticity of a phone call broadcast by Russian state television said to be between Ms Skripal, 33, and her cousin, Viktoria. The woman said to be Ms Skripal claimed in the call that her father, 66, was also recovering, contradicting hospital reports that he is critical but stable. Russia repeated a demand yesterday that it be given consular access to the Skripals.
Yulia Skripal, daughter of the former spy, thanked hospital staff
Britain is understood to be anxious not to reveal its sources over the briefing but intelligence services are growing frustrated at Russia’s upper hand in the propaganda war. They have lobbied Downing Street to release more of the intelligence that helped to convince allies of Moscow’s guilt. Whitehall sources said that the intelligence sharing with allies had been unprecedented.
Alexander Yakovenko, the Russian ambassador to London, insisted yesterday that his country had never developed the novichok agent. “This is a creation of some other countries and some scientists,” he said.
The Shikhany facility also contains shops, hospitals and schools
east2west news
In a 90-minute press conference he veered from sarcasm to giggles to praise for the embassy’s notorious Twitter feed. One journalist took Mr Yakovenko to task, saying: “You keep smiling and joking. That suggests you are not taking this seriously.” “That’s just my style,” Mr Yakovenko retorted. “Don’t read too much into it. Russia is taking this very seriously.”
Britain and Russia clashed at the UN last night after Moscow called an emergency session of the security council. Vassily Nebenzia, the Russian ambassador to the UN, said: “We have told our British colleagues that you’re playing with fire and you’ll be sorry.” He demanded that Britain produce further evidence of his country’s involvement.
Karen Pierce, the British ambassador to the UN, said that Russia was like “an arsonist turned firefighter but in this particular instance the arsonist wants to investigate his own fire”.
She told Mr Nebenzia that when Britain said it was “highly likely” that Russia carried out the attack “it is a reflection of our judicial process and should not cast doubt on our certainty”. “We do not have anything to hide but we fear Russia has something to fear,” she said.
Catherine Philp, Diplomatic Correspondent
What utter bilge.
About the level you can now expect from ‘the Times’ with the rest of the MSM tagging behind.
As bad – if not worse – than any of the propaganda and brainwashing in Soviet Russia.
But at least the Russian people in those days had the wit to see it for what it was,
In this country far too many just supp it up like good little serfs.
Pathetic actually.
It will be interesting to watch them run out to vote for May and Co on May 3rd.
How many do will be a revelation as to how far gone and rotted Britain is.
“The stockpiles detected at Shikhany were far smaller than would be used in a battlefield weapon, suggesting their use in targeted killings.”
It means they are not shy in spewing baseless claims and do not expect any consequences if being caught. How they pretend they “detected stockpiles” is beyond my imagination though.
“The stockpiles detected at Shikhany were far smaller than would be used in a battlefield weapon, suggesting their use in targeted killings”
Maybe they were just ordinary pesticides? 😀
AS an animal lover I am absolutely disgusted and appalled that the police and Security services left three animals to starve to death without as much as water.
A terrible and inhumane death and then try to cover up what is actually a criminal offence.
So how many other times have animals been ignored and abandoned by both services?
Its a horrifying scenario.
But we know this time that these people are grossly guilty of what amounts to knowing and what has to be deliberate animal cruelty.
i am sure I speak for millions when I say I want the people concerned brought to justice for a clear violation of the law and one that would almost certainly get imprisonment in civilian circumstances and as it should now.
This has to stop.
The only way to make these people aware is to prosecute some.
Get on with it RSPCA, other animals charities and the authorities.
It was a sickening and unnecessary act of neglect ending in horrific death and cover up.
Emily,
I suspect those in control at the house, which were highly unlikely to be the local police, knew that the entire story was a charade, a fake, and that there were no highly dangerous poisons there. Otherwise, one of the first logical things they would do, would be to quarantine the animals, and thoroughly test them. They wouldn’t simply ignore them, and leave them to starve to death. I also noticed the bedroom windows were left open, and the central heating system, was still on (steam coming out of the heating vent), in a photo taken when the house had several “police” vehicles outside. This to me seemed very strange, if the circumstances were real. I suspect, that whoever were outside the house (probably security guards) were under instructions not to go in the house, or let anyone in, and the animals were simply forgotten about.
Liars often make lots of mistakes.
Tony
Liars often make lots of mistakes.
Tony
Coldly leaving three animals to die of starvation and thirst cannot have been a mistake.
They must have been aware that they were there.
Someone should be made accountable for this act of gross animal cruelty – if only to stop it happening again.
Are we a civilised country or not?.
Its increasingly doubtful methinks.
Are you fucking crazy?
Your mother fucking goverment is trying its best to start a ww3, all of your official guys look like lunatics and evil pigs on the pictures everywhere on the Internet. You are insulting and accusing.
Your are playing with the lifes of these two russian people and you are worried about some fucking animals. It might be important for the whole shit story but you are worrier if you are civilized on this island because of the animals?
You are not normal
p Remember, they only manged to imprison Al Capone when they got him on tax charges. It might be a small matter and not worth worrying about to some, but it’s the law and if you bring someone to account for the small things the whole edifice might start to unravel.
If you want to get onto the higher pay scales at Shushanka Street I think you need to work a little on your presentation and persuasive skills,
As someone who had a cat for many years, I am baffled that any cat would go hungry in the way described.
Surely it would die of dehydration long before starvation, so if they found the cat after all that time and it was alive, it must have had access to water.. so we need to have that explained.
However the thing that really leaves me scratching my head, is why the cat didn’t climb out of an open window or at least yell for help?
Since this was a high profile case their would have been at least one cop standing at the front door of the property, and the cat wouldn’t be long on letting him know that it was inside and starving, in fact I’m sure I saw a picture of a cop standing outside the property, so if you consider there would have been at least one cop at the property in four shifts per 24 hour timescale, that’s a lot of police-officers who ignored the desperate cries of a starving cat!
And why would you put down a starving cat? because it’s distressed!! it’s distressed because it’s starving, what it needs is something to eat, not a quick jab from the vet to kill it.
Who is the vet? what was it about the cats condition that caused him or her to put it down, rather than give it some nourishment ?
Not the dog that barked?
But the cat who didn’t miaow.
I agree – something very odd.
Yulia was reported by the police to have described the condition of herself and her father as “incapacitated”. The OPCW includes the term “temporary incapacitation” in its list of effects that define a chemical weapon. Her English is очень хороший.
She lived in Britain for five years before returning to Russia.
My point is that the police version of what she said is aligning her terminology with the protocol.
I’ve been in a state of “temporary incapacitated” on many a weekend, especially during my youth, I didn’t have any nerve agents in my system – a lot of vodka but no nerve agents. How much had they had to drink? lol
While all on here are raising very important questions as to getting to the truth of what happened i fear none of it really matters now.
The way our gov’t is just making the lies bigger and bigger and the MSM is just putting it straight out without any questioning is starting to highlight the futility of our actions. It seems at this point now we could have a document with the whole false flag laid out and signed by May, Boris, Williamson and the Skripal’s and it still wouldn’t matter because it would just be brushed of as a fake or Russian psyop in the MSM.
We are in the Matrix and just taking the red pill is only making a change to one person at a time who ultimately are climbing a cliff with no crest. I am sorry to be defeatist but there is no stopping what they are leading us into anytime soon.
I am sorry to be defeatist
You are being defeatist.
There are remedies.
These people are there because the British public votes for them.
It time the public woke up and recognised that the votes they just flippantly stick in a ballot box actually mean something and have results.
The first thing to be done is to do away with our archaic and completely unfair system of voting – FPTP – modenise and introduce fair voting with PR.
To do away with the rot in the system of fiddled boundaries and rottenboroughs – once done away with but now back in the guise of nothing more than ‘safe seats’.
We need to break the undemocratic grip of the two party system as has been done in our three regional parliaments.
We need PR for the next election to get rid of the current stitch up of what amounts to a one party state.
Blair
Cameron
May.
Spot the difference?
Sorry again. I am not suggesting anyone stop seeking and documenting the truth so it is out there for the future generations of truth seekers to find. I am just a bit resigned to not stopping this US/UK agenda of pushing their controlled politicians & businesses into the next stage of the cold war (maybe a hot war)against Russia and or China.
You are absolutely right Emily. There are still ideals to fight for that will hopefully help future generations. The fear I have is what kind of mess the elite are going to create in this current climate. To have to show the type of full 1984 mode they have at the moment makes me think they are desperate to start something bad before they lose the ability to do so.It seems as if they know their domination is at risk and they are capable of destroying everything to keep control. The last times they have done these things it has resulted in the world wars.
That is why I aired my view that the current trying to find out about if it was the door knob or what lie they told next is has no effect on the immediate future.
SG
I know how you feel.
The rot is deep.
But the Russians have actually shown us the way.
The falling of the wall liberated them from some 70 years of near slavery and domination by largely non Russian and non christian forces.
They have overcome the imposition of a western drunken puppet and the organised plunder of their state.
In Britain the public votes for these people.
How 30,000 plus could vote for May in her constituency beggars belief.
She is a neo lib/neo con globalist.
She is not and never has been a conservative.
She and Cameron hijacked the Tory party and turned it into their own image – neo con/neo lib – not least by the repeated parachuting in of candidates and the gormless acceptance by local Tories in accepting them.
Britain has forgotten how to vote FOR a politician.
Both sides vote AGAINST the other, mindlessly and thoughtlessly.
Tories taken over by globalism and neo liberalism – Labour deserting and betraying its working working class voter.
‘We must stop Labour – we must stop the Tories’ mantra.
There is actually not a tissue paper between them.
With PR this cannot happen – every vote is positive, every voter gets represented,
Every vote counts – under the present system none of that happens and all votes other than the winning ones in each constituency are meaningless and binned.
21 European countries have PR.
Most democracies use it.
We elect MEPs under the system.
Our regional parliaments use a form of it.
We need to stop the stranglehold, coercion and blackmail of the current duopoly.
We can get out from under – and that would be the way to start.
The analogy would be like hitting a rock. Hit it a thousand times and it makes no difference. Hit it a 1001 times and it suddenly shatters into pieces.
I think you are right, I think the Establishment will hold firm on this one, but even although we can’t see it, it will have been weakened.
Meanwhile, this one is vastly entertaining – which is a pleasant change from MH17, Syria or name your atrocity of choice
Yes it sometimes feels that way SG, but I think this time is different!
Twitter is full of people including some high-profile people including MPs, saying that they have always trusted the BBC, but the way they have reported this story has opened their eyes to how the BBC has become a propaganda wing of the Government.
They need control of the media to keep doing what they do.
If people stop believing institutions like the BBC/Sky etc, the elite will loose their grip on the population.
Only with a free press, do you have a free people.
You feel trapped with no escape, because you do not feel free, none of us are.
You feel you want to just curl up in bed and live out your life in your cell..
I want to dig a tunnel.
Don’t give up SG, it’s what they want.
“Memory-Holing the “novichok” lie – we need to make sure that doesn’t happen”
“The truth we now know beyond doubt is the UK government and its state-controlled and corporate media provenly put the country on a war footing with a nuclear-armed country based on lies.”
https://off-guardian.org/2018/04/04/memory-holing-the-novichok-lie-we-need-to-make-sure-that-doesnt-happen/
This is not only completely insane (literally putting the entire human race at risk of nuclear war), it is also totally unforgivable.
I think it is the most atrocious thing any UK Government and Media has ever done.
How the hell do we get of these Evil Bastards?
They should not be in power, and in control of what people think.
They should be in jail, for the rest of their lives, as they have risked the end of the human race, based on lies.
Tony
Does anyone note how Boris Johnson has slightly modified his accusation. It’s gone from Russia has stockpiled novichoks over the last decade”, to “Stockpiled small quantities of novichoks”. Well, since under OPCW regulations it’s perfectly permissible to produce a certain quantity of each chemical agent a year for research purposes, if Russia has done so in a perfectly legitimate way, this will allow Johnson to race around squeaking “See, see, small quantities”
Wish I had captured it because I can’t seem to find it now, but the Guardian live feed had a little mention of Craig after the Poton Down statement, quoting the original post and saying he had been “partially vindicated.” Anyone else see it?
I think I referenced it with a link in a previous thread.
You are absolutely right. It was in Andrew Sparrow’s Politics Live blog.
Re the “delayed reaction” story, prof Dave Collum does actually address this in a radio interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0xkDmRF2jk
He says it is plausible, according to the DOSAGE. One molecule alone will not hurt you; a big dose will kill you immediately; in between, there may be a level of exposure that takes hours to take effect (and from which recovery is possible).
He also speculates they may have dissolved the agent in something to help it stick to the door handle (and which might explain why the rain didn’t wash it off)
The “had to be a state actor” line is clearly bogus, but is perhaps is just a clumsy “don’t try this at home folks” message aimed at would be terrorists ?
(Great articles, by the way ! Keep them coming!)
“One molecule alone will not hurt you; a big dose will kill you immediately; in between, there may be a level of exposure that takes hours to take effect (and from which recovery is possible)”
There’s a guy with a brief who’s speaking to it. What a stupid arsehole. There “may” be this, there “may” be that – thanks so much, Mr Professor, Dave Collum.
Dave Collum works for Big Pharma and takes money to talk about various issues. this guyHere he denounces the “snowflake generation”. He also takes about how big inflation is coming.
Sorry – this is the link for Dave Collum denouncing the “snowflake generation”.
*BUT* that doesn’t add up with the DS getting intoxicated by the same toxin and his intoxication setting in almost immediately. Such huge disparity just doesn’t add up especially when you realise that the DS would’ve been trained to glove up at the scene!
A little something picked up from a deep state believer – but not sufficiently so to deny basic chemistry:
“On an unrelated note, if the door handle to their home or car was how the Skripals were exposed, A-234 would be a poor choice. It’s too polar to permeate skin easily, and it looks as if it’s very environmentally labile (Schiff bases can be finicky)”
But of course, I think we are all aware we have long moved beyond actual science and into James Bond territory where anything is possible. When is Q when you need him?
I have a sense we may be seeing a little bit of internal Porton Down politics playing itself out as a sideshow here. Let’s face it, if I were a proper Porton Down scientist I wouldn’t be best pleased at suddenly finding myself working for a mobile phone salesman.
I suspect there may be a bit of ill-disguised gleeful hand-rubbing around Porton Down at the sight of Aitkenhead squirming, sweating and stammering, as he tries desperately to find the words that will bridge the gap between his paymasters’ demands that he ‘finger the Russkies’ and his scientific colleagues’ refusal to play ball.
Even the pets story does not hold up, this pantomime is just bizarre
Sorry only source of link was the scum
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5833121/russian-sergei-skripals-pet-cat/
PET POISON PUZZLE Russian spy Sergei Skripal’s pet cat and guinea pigs are taken away for tests
Neighbours say the poisoned Russian spy’s animals have not been seen since he was hospitalised
Exclusive
By Alex West and Carri-Ann Taylor
17th March 2018, 12:18 am
Updated: 18th March 2018, 1:17 pm
POISONED Sergei Skripal’s cat and two guinea pigs have been taken away for tests, say sources.
The spy’s vet contacted police immediately after hearing he had collapsed along with his daughter Yulia on March 4.
A source close to the family said: “Nobody has seen the poor pets since the poisoning.
“I understand the cat and the guinea pigs were removed from the house and taken away to be assessed.”
Friends revealed last week the Russian, 66, spent hours playing old computer war games surrounded by his guinea pigs.
The black Persian cat — which Yulia, 33, referred to as Nash van Drake on Russian social media — would have cost around £1,500.
Pals said the Skripals spent thousands bringing it to Britain from their homeland.
Vet Howard Taylor, 56, said: “We phoned the police on day one to offer to help if they needed it.
“I thought it unlikely the police would have gone to the house and not done anything.”
He said of Mr Skripal: “He was a nice chap and we got on well.
“He never said he was in fear for his life. He used the vets for some years and I had seen his cat and his guinea pigs.”
Meanwhile, police returned to the scene of the poisoning in Salisbury, taking swabs from a railing close to where visiting Theresa May stood.
The military also removed Mr Skripal’s car from a recovery yard and took it to the government Porton Down chemical lab.
No10 said the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons will also take a sample of the nerve agent used.
Yes it is indeed bizarre. Take a close look at that vet, Howard Taylor.
Just Now…
From me to Wiltshire Constabulary- With reference to the Skripal case- Please can you let me know the status and wellbeing of Mr Skripals pets. I understand that he has two cats and two guinea pigs. I care about animal welfare and I am hoping that the council or neighbours are looking out for the animals. Also, have the animals been tested for effects of the alleged toxin used?
Their reply- Thank you very much for your email and concern for the welfare of the pets mentioned. I have sought the advice of a senior officer and unfortunately I cannot give you any information regarding your query. I can assure you that all matters have been considered.
A curious exchange
Why wouldn’t Victoria be given a visa?
Why would Victoria doubt Yulia would see her?
Why does Yulia say she wouldn’t see her?
“Victoria: Look, if I am granted a visa tomorrow, I’ll fly to see you on Monday. So, well
Yulia (interrupting, calmly): No-one will give you a visa, Vika
Victoria: Ah well… well, I was also thinking that. That’s it. Whatever. Won’t they, yes? Anyway, if I am given a visa I need you to say ‘Yes’ when you are asked if you wish to see me
Yulia: I think no, here the situation is now…we’ll deal with it later”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fb-5581859/amp/Everythings-fine-alive-Transcript-Yulias-phone-call.html
“Why wouldn’t Victoria be given a visa?
Why would Victoria doubt Yulia would see her?
Why does Yulia say she wouldn’t see her?”
1) Because the Brit secret state might not want her to get one, because they don’t want Yulia talking freely.
2) a) Viktoria has been told – and very probably already knew anyway – that the Brits might play the “Visitor from Russia? Yulia may not want one. And we always do what’s best for our customers, as is clearly stated in our terms of practice” card. So Yulia has to be very clear in saying “I want Viktoria to visit me”. Viktoria won’t get a fast-track visa just by saying she’d like to come and visit her cousin in hospital.
b) Viktoria knows Yulia isn’t free to do what she wants.
3) She doesn’t say so unequivocally. I don’t know whether she’s being allowed to read newspapers or media reports. But she presumably knows that her father is iller than she is. While she has “put it out there” that he’s going to recover – in an attempt to make a poshboy bumpoff more difficult – she will know full well that his life remains in the Brit secret state’s hands. And she will know that they will murder him as soon as look at him if they consider it to be in their interests. This is the real world.
“”“It amounts to Russia’s tradecraft manual on applying poison to door handles. It’s the smoking gun. It is strong proof that in the last ten years Russia has researched methods to apply poisons, including by using door handles. The significant detail is that these were the facts that helped persuade allies it could only be Russia that did this.”””
The above states by default that Russia is the only country with enough intelligence to create such simple methods to application of a product onto a door handle or any other surface for that matter.
In which case the rest of the “”Known World”” (aka USA, Canada, Australia, Some European countries) do not have the intellectual capacity to create these rather simple tasks. As is evidences by the child like non-science that is relied upon to make the case “”Russia Did It””
The door handle story is utter BS if you think about it: so they had this “manual” and it took them how long to think of removing the door and checking the handle? And that was after how many people been through that door and handled the handle without any ailment?.. And if the argument is that “well, all those who touched the handle would’ve been gloved up” then “well, the policeman who got hospitalised would’ve been gloved up too per training”…
Why assume that there was only one poisoning attempt? Could it be that the door handle method failed, so a more direct attack was made later?
After all, it took more than one attempt to poison Litvinenko.
How does that stack up against the policeman falling ill almost instantaneously cf. how long it took the Skripals?
Quite well, depending on when and where the victims were poisoned. We don’t know that yet.
Saying “quite well” without explaining such a huge discrepancy is no different to saying “trust me” when everyone knows you have zilch. The Skripals left home and only fell ill several HOURS after leaving home. The policeman attended their home and fell ill almost immediately. So where is this “quite well?” Do spell it out for “thickos” like myself!
The DS had his car recovered from Alderholt.
Did he drive there after the incident?
Was the door handle treated the same day the Skripals were poisoned? The night before? Several days / weeks after the bench incident?
With no facts, misinformation and plenty of lies the truth is difficult the ascertain.
@Charles,
It’s actually way worse than I though, I though the DS attended their home. It seems he was “first on the scene” so he would’ve had the full dose of exposure necessary to incapacitate him at his body weight at the scene! This completely destroys the “multiple exposures” “story” for lacking any credible foundation.
@Charles,
2/ It actually leads one to another theory given Porton Down’s history of human guinea pigging: it was the park bench that was sprayed with whatever toxin, and the Skripals were just victims of circumstance- it could’ve been anyone who sat on that bench at the time.
*BUT* that theory is negated by the doctor not having fallen ill at all. So what was the common thread between the DS and the Skripals?
Detective Sergeants are not routinely despatched to deal with suspected vagrants (well never actually)
Add that to the Official Line of Lies and Misinformation and you are free to make up anything you like. eg.
1) Brave Bailey just happened to be in Greggs getting a pasty when the fuss kicked off
2) Sinister Bailey was involved with application of the poisons
3) Hapless Bailey was seconded to Special Branch that day tailing Yulia and Sergei and monitoring their movements. The Skripals manged to lose their Tail at 9:15 am near the cemetery, removing batteries and sims from their phones to prevent tracing.
Oh dear! it was known Yulia had a package to deliver from her handlers in Moscow, but our brave boys had lost them. Bailey and his mates go for coffee and doughnuts not daring to go back to the office.
They pick up a call hours later, a couple matching the description of their targets have been sighted incapacitated on a bench in Salisbury …………
@Charles,
but hold on, wasn’t there a doctor from the local hospital who just happen to be passing by who attended on the Skripals and the doctor didn’t even show signs of mild intoxication?
Thank you very much Craig for your forensic break down of this story into components which highlight it’s absurdity. Can you tell us your thoughts on the cat story? It would be very interesting to know your thoughts on this as well.
I feel sorry for the next drunk in Salisbury who decides to sleep it off on a park bench.
If Yulia didn’t arrive with the poison, didn’t administer it to herself & her father, accidentify or otherwise, someone else did. The diversionary “Russian State did it” conveniently ignores and deflects attention from the “failed” assassins. 4000 hours of CCTV? Nothing? Not one grainy image of a “person of interest”? Nothing, of this event which has been publicised, makes any logical sense. It was just as likely a personal attack by someone Sergei crossed when in Russia?
Or Yulia was to give it to her father to courier it up to Nikolai Glushkov. In any case, Glushkov won’t be answering anyone’s questions about it now.
Perhaps the reason the evil Russian GRU men didn’t show up on CCTV in Salisbury was because they painted themselves in “Pizdachok”? That is the invisibility technology invented at the secretive “Zadnitsa” facility, requiring such fiendishly sophisticated components that only a “state actor” (so not Google) could possibly make it.
Nonsense, they are obviously Russian weapons grade vampires, that’s why they’re not on CCTV! Signed, HMG AKA The Onion
Pizdachok?
Named after Johnson, no doubt.
Patrick Wintour, the Guardian’s diplomatic correspondent, who takes his orders from SIS, foams at the mouth about “the Russians”.
“The British aim, apart from securing her personal recovery, is to find out all (Yulia Skripal) knows about possible motives for the poisoning attack and to keep her away from the Russians, and possibly even her cousin.”
(I think he means the MI6 or Tory or defence contractors’ or British state’s aim – and the “apart from” linking the two clauses is obviously deceitful. They only want her alive because it’s in their interests.)
“the Russians seem to be using Viktoria as a battering ram with which to try to gain access to Yulia”
(What dirty Russians, eh?)
“In a possible sign that at the least the Russian state is monitoring Viktoria very closely, a brief phone call between her and Yulia made on 4 April was recorded.”
(Yeah sure, and MI5 let Yulia talk in private, right? “In a possible sign” is a rhetorical device – he’s saying he’s not telling his readers something but he’s letting them draw their own conclusion.)