The terrible death of Dawn Sturgess casts a new shadow over the Salisbury Affair. Dawn appears to have been a popular and well grounded woman with close friend and family ties, whose life had taken a downward turn before being cruelly ended.
The illogical, inconsistent and shifting government narrative over events in Salisbury and Amesbury had appeared so ludicrous as to be tragi-comic. Any sense of amusement is now abruptly dispelled. But less us take a serious and sober look at the government case.
Savid Javid stated today:
We know back in March that it was the Russians. We know it was a barbaric, inhuman act by the Russian state. Again, for this particular incident, we need to learn more and let the police do their work.
Actually, we know no such thing and, contrary to Javid’s deliberate insinuation, the police have adduced no evidence that it was the Russian state.
The media appear to have entirely excluded from the narrative that Porton Down specifically stated that they cannot determine the origin of the poison that attacked the Skripals. Nor has the OPCW. There are scores of both state and non-state actors who could have produced the nerve agent. No evidence has been produced as to the physical person who allegedly administered the poison. In short, nothing so far has been shown which would lead any reasonable person to conclude a case against the Russian state was proven.
I believe this following is the government narrative currently. I hope I am not mistating it:
Russia has a decade long secret programme of producing and stockpiling novichok nerve agents. It also has been training agents in secret assassination techniques, and British intelligence has a copy of the Russian training manual, which includes instruction on painting nerve agent on doorknobs. The Russians chose to use this assassination programme to target Sergei Skripal, a double agent who had been released from jail in Russia some eight years previously.
Only the Russians can make novichok and only the Russians had a motive to attack the Skripals.
The Russians had been tapping the phone of Yulia Skripal. They decided to attack Sergei Skripal while his daughter was visiting from Moscow. Their trained assassin(s) painted a novichok on the doorknob of the Skripal house in the suburbs of Salisbury. Either before or after the attack, they entered a public place in the centre of Salisbury and left a sealed container of the novichok there.
The Skripals both touched the doorknob and both functioned perfectly normally for at least five hours, even able to eat and drink heartily. Then they were simultaneously and instantaneously struck down by the nerve agent, at a spot in the city centre coincidentally close to where the assassins left a sealed container of the novichok lying around. Even though the nerve agent was eight times more deadly than Sarin or VX, it did not kill the Skripals because it had been on the doorknob and affected by rain.
Detective Sergeant Bailey attended the Skripal house and was also poisoned by the doorknb, but more lightly. None of the other police who attended the house were affected.
Four months later, Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess were rooting about in public parks, possibly looking for cigarette butts, and accidentally came into contact with the sealed container of a novichok. They were poisoned and Dawn Sturgess subsequently died.
I am going to leave you to mull over that story yourselves for a while. I believe it is a fair statement of the British government narrative. I also believe almost (but not quite) every single sentence is very obviously untrue. I hope tomorrow to publish a detailed analysis explaining why that is, but want you to look at it yourselves first.
One final thought. I trust that Dawn Sturgess will get a proper and full public inquest in accordance with normal legal process, something which was denied to David Kelly. I suspect that is something the government will seek to delay as long as possible, even indefinitely.
This may not be conclusive, but it does give a pretty good overview of comments on this thread to date (my apologies to genuine ‘sleuths’):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfBG0d5Oj3c
More information may ‘leak’ out, which may in turn increase the frenzy.
🙂
Good case for docking all MPs’, if not their tails then their pay until docking back to the Mutti Angie & Tessie ship
There appear to be two apparently contradictory theories put forward
1 Dawn and Charlie were targeted.
2 They were not targeted but took some bad drugs and someone later turned it into a Novichok incident.
These can be synthesised.
They were targeted using a substance other than Novichok. Only later was it decided to turn this into a Novichok incident.
Strange days indeed.
Rowley may also die in the next few days according to family who visited today. He is going solely on mechanical life support:
“Dawn’s grieving mother Caroline said: “It’s not looking good for Charlie either. Maybe a few days. He won’t pull out of this either. He’s just alive with the machines. Dawn died before 10pm. Her body just shut down. With her drink and drug addiction, her body wasn’t strong enough to deal with this.”
The police, while not exactly forthcoming, are releasing much more information than with the Skripals. Today for example they announced an all-clear from Porton Down on the double-decker bus Charlie and Dawn had taken to Amesbury on Friday afternoon. Of all the hundreds of swipes and objects taken for testing in the last four months, this is the only test outcome announced (not counting a faux positive for the door handle).
So far police have failed to locate the putative contaminated source object. They’ve indicated to reporters that it is not to be found at Charlie’s residence.
Two vehicles were cling-wapped today and trucked off to PD for testing, a windowless red Ford transport van with unknown owner that Charlie and three others (who have not developed symptoms) took on Saturday, and more interestingly a newish Audi in Swindon, parked at Coronel Close off Ermin St. I could not read the license plate in twitter photos as it was already wrapped and could not be made legible with full-on photoshop. New, these run from £16,000-£62,000 depending on model etc.
One twitter speculation is that the Audi is owned by Charlie’s heroin dealer, the notion being that when Charlie and Dawn left the Lizzie Garden blanket group for what Sam Hobson called a “chat’, it was to meet the dealer or retrieve a tin stash that had been left. Even if all this were true, it seems implausible that the Audi would be contaminated with novichok.
So despite an excellent effort, the police may be triply skunked: rather than a evidentiary breakthrough, both new victims may die without speaking, the object cannot be found, and increasingly annoyed Salisbury residents cannot be put at ease that this is finally over.
I should add the red van was on a road in Durrington by Avondown Road, close to where Sturgess’s parents live, two miles from Amesbury. It was not familiar to neighbors. It has not been clarified whether the other three men were also addicts.
Also the language has changed from tin to tub for the contaminated object. “Tests have revealed Ms Sturgess and Mr Rowley were exposed after touching a contaminated item with their hands.” I read this as saying the Salisbury hospital took clothes and hand skin swipes at point after admission and PD found the latter positive.
Now it’s being said [Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10.36pm local] that it is “believed, but not confirmed, that the [Audi] belongs to a police officer” rather than Rowley’s drug dealer. This raises just as many questions because the one policeman thought to have been poisoned was transported from the Swindon hospital down to Salisbury’s and cleared.
Up-forum, it’s noted that DS Nick Bailey also had been sent home but then relapsed that night, joining the Skripals for some weeks as in-patient. That would fit low novichok on his skin but more on his clothes, for slight symptoms, lag, significant symptoms. It’s not at all clear how recovered Bailey is or for that matter Sergei. The months go by without either making a public appearance. They can only do so much for them at the hospital. oSergei was 67 and not in good health.
I posted Spire FM story yesterday that bus Dawn and Charlie on had zero novichok. Bus would have CCTV it would be easy to swab each surface they touched – but nothing. Also a travel card named “key” is used by Salisbury Red buses. So did the card/s used by C&D have novichok?
Remember their hands were supposedly heavily contaminated.
Also – did Skripals use cash in pub and Zizzis? Are banknotes contaminated?
Hi Tom, thanks for this information and analysis. It all adds up to death from a probable drug overdose with the Government trying to find any evidence to suggest Novichock.
Following the proposition that the Russians planned and carried out the Skripal poisoning, this would necessitate the preparation of a comprehensive plan yet we are to believe that the disposal of the ‘container’ was never considered and the best option the ‘agent’ had was to toss it aside in a park, not even put it in a bin.
May I suggest that after conduction end of financial year stock take, Porton Down have come up short one container.
No, Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley often looked in bin for stuff to sell, it’s thought they found an item containing Novichok in a bin not the park.
“it’s thought they found an item containing Novichok in a bin”…..that hadn’t been emptied in four months, or they handled the offensive material way back in March – and waited until July to be taken ill..
Sure, that’s unlikely. but not impossible. Some of my bins stand outside unemptied for months because I don’t use them. When I do check them I usually find rubbish thrown in by passerbys.
Doddlebug, you are right, bins in public parks are emptied every day.
Scott T – I think you might well be right there about the Porton Down stock take!
Hunt the phial takes on epic needle/haystack proportions, but I suspect that it was originally in the red bag left at the feet of the Skripals which was taken away by the security sevices and subsequently tipped out with the domestic refuse at Porton Down by mistake. These things happen.
Quasi – ‘these things happen’ – of course they do of a type of lie developed by the Tory Government!
Do you honestly think this would have played out any different under ZaNu Labour?
RIP Boris Johnson.
As Foreign Secretary he would obviously know why the UK has targeted Syria with UK special forces and with MI6 agents who are terrorists. He would obviously know why the Silk Road that runs from China to Syria has been closed down at Palmyra and by the instability in Syria, and will now be re-opened through the ethnically Chinese country of Turkey which belongs to NATO.
He has been using his in-depth knowledge of global trade to open a global trade route from China directly to Europe, and he has been using his position in the Tory cabinet to make the UK a kind of offshore Hong Kong for the EU, so that the EU has an alternative to the Chinese-owned Silk Road through Turkey.
Mrs May has decided that all the while Boris Johnson has been pissing off China as perfidious Albion British foreign secretaries are paid to do, he has also been pissing off British business people who provide most of the jobs in our economy , either through trade with the EU or not through the EU. He has also been pissing off Ireland which is able to claim support from 26 fellow members of the EU.
He now has to go even though he has been the best British Foreign Secretary at pissing off, dividing and ruling. fomenting covert war and wiping his colleagues faces with used toilet tissue.
In a role of Chief British Pisser-Off he has excelled, at lying, dividing, destroying, incapacitating, bankrupting and all the other difficult tasks these shite are paid to do.
If the British State were not up to its eyeballs in deceit, violence, betrayal, treason, theft etc etc, the Great British public might agree with what it is trying to do. But since explanations would give the criminal game away, Boris has to go. He will be rewarded with the office of leader of the opposition later for his bastardry when May , forced by well-foreseen circumstances, such as a snap election, chooses to leave.
They lie, they stab in the back, they wreck, they divide, and then they go.
Excellent vituperation of worthy object.
I have not read all the comments but there are some interesting theories re the potential for the later pair to have been witnesses to the original ‘Skripal’ incident. Emergence of the truth of what happened immediately before the ‘Skripals’ being found collapsed on the bench would not be helpful to the official narrative, the pair would be dangerous witnesses, precipitating their disposal.
Your (Craig’s) summary of the official narrative exposes its contradictions and blatant omissions and in particular the obvious line of what happened to the Skripals immediately before their collapse, this being the likely time that a potent nerve agent would have been administered. It seems likely the latter was the intended official line but this was scuppered by the unscheduled emergence of Yulia on Russian Facebook.
Indeed I suspect many people were expecting to hear her story of what did happen immediately before their collapse. As with the later pair, emergence of the truth would be very unhelpful to the official narrative. The silencing of Yulia however, after her miraculous appearance on Facebook from the very jaws of death together with her being a Russian National, would not be so readily arranged.
I am not sure whether one already exists but perhaps a campaign might chime with the public, say:
‘Novichok-Gate, Let Yulia Speak’
Does anyone who subscribes to the hypothesis that Dawn and Charlie were poisoned because rhey knew too much have any thoughts on the timimg? Is the World Cup relevant? They could have spilt the beans any time these last four months.
With the Skripals there is a good explanation for the timing if one subscribes to the hypothesis on the blogmire, namely that Sergei Skripal was going to a prearranged meeting at which he wished to be accompanied by a trusted person.
@ Pyotr Grozny July 10, 2018 at 08:32
If they ‘saw something’ I should imagine they would have told their friends and relatives, who would be likely to expose it on Dawn’s death.
That’s an argument against Dawn and Charlie being the couple in the CCTV. Indeed if rhey were in the employ of MI5/6 how could theirvemployers know if they had blabbed or not.
“Does anyone who subscribes to the hypothesis that Dawn and Charlie were poisoned because they knew too much”
If they were involved in a road accident, “badly” mugged, drowned whilst swimming, then yes.
Poisoned in a way guaranteeing page one coverage, not so much.
@ IMcK July 10, 2018 at 06:28
There is already a Petition put up by a commenter on this blog, ‘Let Yulia Skripal speak’:
https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-let-yulia-skripal-speak
but it is growing at a snail’s pace.
Well spotted Paul – I’d seen it and signed it, memory like a sieve. Apologies to Mr Goss – good petition. And I thought I was getting the slogan inspiration from the Nigel Farage ‘No let me speak’ mimicry!
Very implausible theory, IMO. There are easier ways to silence a drug addict. Even if they needed to be killed, why use Novichok and expose a connection that you are trying to hide.
“Even if they needed to be killed, why use Novichok and expose a connection that you are trying to hide.”
To create fear amongst their friends and associates? After all the connection HASN’T been exposed, just a few dozen people sounding off in the comments section of a moderately obscure blog. Hence it works on two levels – for the bulk of the population it doubles down on the original anti-Russia message, for the handful of people who Dawn and Charlie might have blabbed to, it creates terror. I mean its not like a BBC or Guardian journalist is going to put any credence whatsoever in whatever their friends were to say if they strayed from the line of: “Oh they just loved binning, Dawn and Charlie, did. I told him, Chuck, I told him, stop diving into those dumpsters. But they always insisted on jumping right in.”. So what possible incentive would anyone have to talk to the media or police?
Anyway, I don’t suppose they saw someone pouring a vial down the Skripal’s throats. Maybe they just gave a description of people in the vicinity that the police would prefer not to know about.
O/T. Trump’s choice for the vacancy in the Supreme Court is an ex adviser to George W Bush. Nuff said.
Brett Kavanaugh picked for Supreme Court by President Trump – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44775078
PS Will Trump comment on the current Westminster shenanigans when he visits?
Thanks. I look forward to tomorrow’s detailed analysis, Craig. I refer to your comment about Dr Kelly’s death, fifteen years ago on 17th July.
1) The film trailer of my play ‘The United Kingdom of The Dead’ will be on YouTube to mark the anniversary. All the professional actors and film crew gave their time for free. Even John Rutter, wonderful composer, has allowed us to use his recording of Lotti’s Crucifixus for no fee and an indefinite period.
2) Lead journalist on the Dr Kelly case, Miles Goslett, (Who also broke the Savile scandal and Batmanghelidj story.) is @Waterstones York on 8th August at 7pm signing his very revealing book about the Dr Kelly case, with Talk and QnAs:
https://www.waterstones.com/book/an-inconvenient-death/miles-goslett/9781788543095
https://www.facebook.com/events/259146637970781/
https://twitter.com/WaterstonesYork/status/1012659692940791808
3) Miles is also at Waterstones Yarm on Tuesday 7th August 6.30pm for the same event, for those in Teeside region.
Please readers, would you circulate these links? It is like walking through treacle getting the truth out there.
The Waterstones page quotes from reviews in the Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday so this is one ‘conspiracy’ theory which looks to be becoming mainstream.
The Mail carried most of the articles Miles Goslett wrote throughout – on the case and on the judicial review seeking a reversal of Grieve’s decision not to grant an inquest for Dr Kelly.
Gideon gives the seal of approval to the new health secretary and to the new foreign secretary.
‘George Osborne @George_Osborne · 10 hours ago
Feeling very proud of my friend @MattHancock tonight – and proud too that my country will be represented abroad by @Jeremy_Hunt. Hard work, moderation and good sense rewarded.’
His tweet is on Pulse, the GPs’ website.
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/analysis/what-do-we-know-about-new-health-secretary-matt-hancock/20037063.article
Gideon fails to mention Hancock’s qualifications for the job – ‘He worked as an economist for the Bank of England before becoming an economic advisor (and later Chief of Staff) to George Osborne.’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Hancock
In the sidebar on Pulse note the links which illustrate the dire state of primary care which is at the very core of the health system,and just part of Hunt’s legacy to OUR NHS.
..NHS England set to consult on ‘biggest GP contract reform since 2004’
..Partnerships could introduce ‘attractive features’ of locum model, says review
..Revealed: GP vacancy rates rocket with one in six roles unfilled
..GP recruitment issues push locum rates to £1.4k a day in one area
..GMC expresses concerns over trainee doctor burnout
Typical.
Mark Regev @MarkRegev · 9h9 hours ago
Mazal tov to @Jeremy_Hunt on his appointment as Foreign Secretary. Looking forward to further strengthening the #Israel-#UK partnership.
You are right, it is entriely typical that an Ambassdor resident in London would offer their congratulations to a newly appointed British Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
Well we can’t have English/British fathers and sons spreading such good news about Russia and myth-busting all those big bad bear Russophobic truisms we’ve been spending so much media hype on, can we now?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mDHOmwWNJsg
What perfect timing for some stray Russkie Novichok (allegedly) to cause grief.
As you say, the UK government had to do something as Russia was getting very good coverage in the press – and large numbers of football fans were visiting Russia and had realised that Russia was not the country that the neo-con warmongers have tried to paint it as.
They had to demonise Russia over something. Anything. And this is what they came up with. They really are stupid.
And I bet that after the fans tell of their pleasant experiences in Russia the country will become a new destination for many tourists.
That would be a nightmare scenario for the UK government. Imagine if Russia became the new Benidorm – and elderly Brits started to retire there (the warmer southern parts) in huge numbers.
In Crimea for instance!
If I was too sarcastic in that last post to get the meaning, the YouTube video is one of a series of posts by Bolton/England fans – father and son duo – who have found Russia to exceed wildest expectations for friendliness, efficiency, cleanliness and organisation.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mDHOmwWNJsg
Worth watching. Hopefully H.M. Customs won’t give them a hard time on returning home.
The Novitsjok Blob has now reached Swindon. Once it gets on the Great Western Railway there’s no telling where it will end up.
There was speculation above it is the PC’s car who was taken ill. It seems odd it is being wrapped in cling film but the bus Dawn and Charlie caught has “no traces of novichok”.
We seek it here, we seek it there,
Those Tories seek it everywhere.
Is it in heaven? — Is it in hell?
That damned, elusive Novvi Chok.
Sorry it doesn’t rhyme. 🙂
They seek it here, they seek it there,
Those Tories seek it everywhere.
Is it in Amesbury or Salisbury Town?
Perhaps they should look in Porton Down.
Now it rhymes but doesn’t scan. 🙂
Salisbury is a city.
Tough tittie.
What a pity
you can’t be witty
instead of shitty.
Dawn and Charlie were bin dippers, Charlie’s house was full of stuff they found in bins that they’d sell. The contaminated item is likely in his house. He could have found it weeks ago, sat in the house unbroken, only broke recently, released its contents and poisoned them. That is explains why the bus didn’t have Novichok on it.
David, now that is really really really far fetched as the ‘container’ would have had to have been in a military heavily sealed and locked container – it would have been large, obvious and heavy. I doubt anyone could have kept this in their flat for weeks then open it. Also, there is no way it could have been deposited in a bin in a park. Remember that the OPCW found it was of a high and intense purity – meaning it was a lab sample making it a very dangerous compound. Also, it was not identified as Novichock.
Leonid Rink who has made Novichok or similar poisons and sold them to gang members describes it as being in normal ampules (source in Russian: https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles/2018/04/02/76026 )
We can assume that police have checked every item that was in the house. If your theory is correct they must have disposed of it in very secure way. Washed it down the drain perhaps? Someone wrote here that a hose was connecte to their drains for a decontamination pump-out.
Occam’s Razor tells me: “No!”.
I’d be looking for a rogue employee of Porton Down.
I also have the following questions:-
1/ How can the medics be certain that it was a nerve agent?
2/ How can they be certain that it was one of the novichok agents and not sarin or VX?
3/ Are the structural formulas of the novichocks known to anyone outside the nations of the former Soviet Union?
4/ If the novichok formulas are known why cannot any competent chemical laboratory such as Porton Down for example synthesize them?
5/ In analyzing traces of poisions how big a sample is required to determine its structura formula, milligrams, micrograms or nanograms???
And Craig, on another matter, please set up a one off donation option. I visit your blog every day and want to donate but I do not like the loss of control involved with recurring donations.
In answer to 4, Porton Down has quantities of synthesised Novichok available; as does the U.S., Germany, Sweden, etc.
Beginning to think along those line myself. If that is indeed the case, stand by for a huge cover up, so huge that we’ll probably never even know there was a cover up !
“I’d be looking for a rogue employee of Porton Down.”
Good call. Is it known whether or not the Skripals were smokers btw?
I think it is highly likely it was a drug overdose which the Government has labelled as a Novichock poisoning due to its proximity to Salisbury and to cast a heavy smoke screen of the disaster that is Brexit, the success that is the world cup and the current shambles that is the Cabinet.
This has certainly diverted attention from Skripal and the Golden Shower dossier – which is probably what it’s all about, and why the UK was able to call on the help of the rest of NATO. I do hope Trump is thinking about Orbis and the Golden Shower when his plane comes in to land past the Baby Trump dirigeable….
But in the meantime the general public is being nudged in the direction of rogue Russian responsibility (half page article in Saturday’s London Times, some (I believe mistaken) comments by Seymour Hersch (but even Homer sometimes nods)
First stop for Jeremy Hunt? China. To visit the in-laws.
A puff piece about him here in the South China Morning Post.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/2154543/jeremy-hunt-japanese-speaking-survivor-who-now-uks-new-foreign
SCMP – ‘It was owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation until it was acquired by real estate tycoon Robert Kuok in 1993. On 11 December 2015, it was announced that Alibaba Group would acquire the media properties of the SCMP Group, including the South China Morning Post. On 5 April 2016 Alibaba Group
completed the acquisition.’
___
‘With operations in over 200 countries, Alibaba is the world’s largest retailer, one of the largest Internet and AI companies, one of the biggest venture capital firms, and one of the biggest investment corporations in the world. Its online sales and profits surpassed all US retailers (including Walmart, Amazon and eBay) combined since 2015.’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alibaba_Group
So well in with Alibaba Jeremy. Everybody loves you including Theresa.
He’s here. One of the chosen 30! What a mob.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/E7F9/production/_102458395_mediaitem102458392.jpg
Who are the onlookers on the sides? The SPADs?
If Gove is going to make a career out of adopting elaborately insincere facial expressions every time someone point a camera at him he should consider developing his repertoire beyond one. Looks like a ventriloquist dummy that’s just had its bottom pinched.
Skripal with his background and possible connexion to the Dodgey Dossier leads us instantly into the James Bond type spy scenario.
What however if the Skripals were purely random victims of some type of poison that had got unaccountably out into the wild.
So to with the latest victims.
Non of what we have learned so far has made any sense, nor have the accusations wildly thrown out.
That T. May is a complete ass is indisputable, trusting the BBC and various other MSM is not going to be much help either.
Ditto that. See my reply to ‘Sharp Ears’ yesterday (p.3). Instead of proceeding with the (quite probably false) the assumption that a Russian agent discarded some toxic leftovers, attention should be paid to any staff at PD who might possibly have had reason to leave the shop with a little something extra in their pocket earlier in the year.
The suffering of Sturgess and Rowley comes at a time when the Skripal story is no longer front page news and some people crave notoriety like others need a ‘fix’. HM govt. are struggling with the supposed Amesbury-Salisbury connection being ‘Russian’. A third incident further down the line would demolish that argument altogether. It is to be hoped that Wiltshire Police are allowed to see the wood for the trees before anyone else gets fatally ‘mugged’.
Physically smuggling material out of P D would probably be feasible but it runs a risk vis a vis inventory control. I would imagine inventory control of finished goods and precursors would be ultra strict. Two person checks on a weekly basis with sign off.
Safer for a chemist with knowledge and experience to “export” their ability. The remit given to the group that developed novichoks was that they should be able to be manufactured from readily obtained chemicals using bog standard lab kit.
All of this is ultimately pointless anyway. If it is the work of the”Porton Down poisoner” it will never come out. Our Lords and masters have too much invested in the “it was the Ruskies wot dun it” narrative. Expect a rash of mystery suicides from the Porton Down staff (there is a history of such events in perfidious Albion).
Would be hilarious if Trump brags to May on Friday “Our guys got that son of a bitch Skripal. That’ll teach him to lie about me”. Wonder if she’d ever share that with the British public though…
on the most basic geographic considerations, ‘item’ in park should discredit the novichok on doorknob narrative once and for all
Shush, one cannot start interfering with the foundations, the whole lot might fall down /S 😉
The problem is to make the whole story hang together, and there are just loose ends all over the place.
So here’s a what if. The Skripal’s left Zizzi in a hurry to meet someone. The person they met gave them an object, possible in exchange for something. That object was sealed, but when opened contaminated the Skripals. The object fell to the floor and dropped or rolled away from the bench, and was found by Sturgess who was passing. Sturgess put it in her bag and forgot about it. Four month’s later, she’s staying over at Rowley’s and finding the lost object in her bag, she opens it in the bathroom and is poisoned (the Salisbury park is not necessarily the source). Rowley calls the ambulance. Later that afternoon Rowley find the object in the bathroom, opens it and contaminates himself.
The object would have to be small – so Sturgess would forget about it, but interesting enough that she would pick it up. It would have to be sealable, to retain the potency of the nerve agent and to prevent it spreading, but the contents wouldn’t contaminate the outside, so it would be handled without having an effect – this would rule out a spray container, or a powder in say a small locket where the contents would contaminate the container. It would have to have enough interest to the Skripal’s that they would be guaranteed to open it to test or examine the contents.
It could be drugs – a small sachet of cocaine, a wrap of heroin – something a druggie might recognise but the rest of us would miss, but is this the sort of thing that would have been opened and sampled in the street? Secondly, no-one has discussed whether either Skripal was a drug user. And both father and daughter? Seems unlikely.
It could be a miniature bottle of something. But if it was alcohol looking (eg a mini-vodka), you’d expect an alcoholic to drink it. A possibility, however, is a small bottle of scent or perfume without an atomizer. If it was aimed at the Skripal Sr, it would have to be a neutral or male-targeted scent which might explain Sturgess not opening it directly.
The story would then be that the Skripals have the bottle, perhaps as a freshly given gift, and decide to open it to see what it smells like and so poison themselves in the middle of Salisbury. The bottle drops to the ground and rolls away. Sturgess walks past and sees it, picks it up and puts it in her bag, but having no need for it does nothing else. It’s only when she rediscovers it in her bag at Rowley’s, or perhaps thinks it is suitable as a gift for Rowley, that she opens it to smell the scent and poisons herself. Rowley discovers the bottle later for his shower and does likewise.
Now we could return to ask where did the object come from? It’s possible that there was no third party. Yulia might have been given it in Russia for her father, or it could have been dropped in her bag in passing only to be discovered in Salisbury. However, it’s also possible it could have been handed over as gift, but the perpetrator didn’t expect the bottle to be opened in town directly. The suggestion for this is that the perpetrator went to Skripal’s house intending to verify the deed had been done, and to retrieve the bottle – if he/she was wearing the gloves worn early to prepare the contents, this would then leave residue on the door handle.
Would he/she have been Russian? It’s a weird method of attack and a long and complex operation, and quite rash and risky. It could have been done as a counterintel operation by MI6 but the way it turned out left a lot of people at risk and there are easier ways to leave Russian fingerprints around without the over elaborate death – such as receipts, phone tracking, Russian cigarette butt etc.
So following the idea that it was something handed over in Salisbury, then it would be by someone Skripal was acquainted with. A possibility, given the closeness to Porton Down, was that this was a Porton Down employee that Skripal knew (eg as a lover, or as an informant sharing details about operations in Porton Down for Skripal to relay to the Russians as a double/treble agent), but who had a grudge or felt used by Skripal, and lacking other means, used a poison from work for revenge, intending to cover it up by retrieving the article later (perhaps because she had a key…).
So in the bathroom, with the eau de cologne, by lady Professor Plum
I am with you on a lot of this but what if the item given to the Skripals was one they were expecting to receive, not one they found speculatively?. Maybe it was couriered to them or maybe passed on while they were out and they stopped to open it on the bench, with the results we know about. Then we go along with your narrative. Still not clear where Hobson fits into all this.
Recalling the Head of the OPCW statement of being told that 50-100g had been used in Salisbury, is the more rationale explanation the OPCW have been informed an institute have had some material lost or stolen.
Amongst my theories – scratch cards. Sergei was “lucky” according to the corner shop owner.
Was he being paid by FSB with winning scratch cards? If his handler (you know who) asked where money came from – scratch cards. He’d go in and buy a lot, take them home, then return with FSB “winners”.
MI6 figured it out and in a cruel joke decided to give home a few novichok laced scratch cards.
Now maybe he chucked a spiked loser away but Dawn picked it up to scratch on the off chance, as people do. This stayed in her bag until Friday when they used it as a roach in a joint! Voila! Cherche la carte.
Oooh! Guess what the police said they found in Rowley’s bathroom 13th July… Someone must have read the post and decided to use this story.
Imagine a situation were Dawn and Charlie had become victims prior to the Skripals. They would have been hospitalized given the standard treatment for drug overdose and either recovered or not but never made it onto the news, let alone the headlines.
Hospital records for the area around Porton Down should be checked for drug overdose cases in the preceding two years, that specimens from any of those cases have been kept is too much to hope for, but a chance.
Not an outrageous suggestion. Perhaps the Skripals were not the first victims of the dum de dum dum! “Porton Down poisoner” (© Viv O’Bliv).
Not necessarily a deliberate poisoner. Could just be careless handling of items taken off site for purposes unknown.
RAC I am not at all convinced that a substance of high intense purity could be handled by anybody safely as it would be heavily sealed. Hence the Skripals were not poisoned by Novichok. Novichock is a smoke screen here being used to counteract the positivity of the world cup, the shambles of Brexit and the Cabinet.
Can’t agree with that theory Jo…….
” Novichock is a smoke screen here being used to counteract the positivity of the world cup, the shambles of Brexit and the Cabinet.”
The government wouldn’t want to resurrect the already feeble Skripal story for that reason. Brexit will always be a festering sore and we have become used to it and sorry but football just aint that important except to those who take an interest in it.
“Hence the Skripals were not poisoned by Novichok”. Nor was anyone else at the time.
That was in fact the view of the consultant at Salisbury District Hospital where the Skripals were treated.
I am thinking had their deaths not taken place in Amnesbury there would be no suggestion at all about Novichock. It’s a drug overdose innit which the government are using to, once again, obfuscate a myriad number of problems eg Brexit, Cabinet shambles and the economy!
Jo.
Go away and leave me to nurture my “Porton Down poisoner” (© Viv O’Bliv) hypothesis. It’s perfect, even if it’s wrong it’s right. The truth will never be agreed on, so I’m guaranteed to be correct (in my own little world).
Ah, the phantom poisoner of old Salisbury town! I say rasberries!!
Fanatically pro-Zionist think tank, Middle East Forum contibute financially to defence fund of Tommy Robinson.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180710-pro-israel-think-tank-funds-tommy-robinsons-legal-costs/
Also claim to be funding the “Free Tommy” marches (9th June and 14th July).
Fat, slap head white blokes + alcohol + hot weather = Riot.
Wonder where MEF get their money from? (Sharpie)
Quite confusing to have similar names isn’t it. Middle East Forum and Middle East Monitor.
Good people on Middle East Monitor, especially Jenny Tonge (booted out of the LDs by the Zionist supporting Clegg), Ben White and Ramzy Baroud whose writings you will know.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/about/
Middle East Forum – a nasty racist outfit founded by Daniel Pipes. https://www.meforum.org/about
Tax exemption acquired too – With roots going back to 1990, the Middle East Forum has been an independent tax-exempt 501(c) (3) non-profit organization based in Philadelphia since 1994.
Pipes takes $275k out of the pot and the secretary Amy Shargel $170.6k
Gifts, grants, contributions, and membership fees received +$23million
which is the value of services or facilities furnished by a governmental unit to the organization without charge. !! WTF?
This is the 59 page long tax form. No names to and from individual donors, just outfits with anonymous sounding names.
http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/237/237749796/237749796_201412_990.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Forum
Thanks for helping an old defrocked priest out.
So a Yank outfit, Sheldon Adelson and his ilk.
Wonder how you fund a “Free Tommy” rally beyond buying a few slabs of Tennants Super and letting the boys get stuck in? Not expecting an answer to that question.
“government unit” is an odd term. So the good ol’ US of A is providing assistance to British criminals and their sympathisers. Surely something city boy Javid should raise with the tangerine toddler.
Can just imagine the bloated buffoon siting with his feet up on Saturday evening watching the sun set behind Ailsa Craig as the knuckle draggers riot on the streets of London.
I have several thoughts on this. The first one is of course, that it is yet further Government BS rolled out at this time for specific reasons. The primary one is, to my mind, that the World Cup in Russia is going oh too well for their liking and England are doing very well. This is a well timed piece of propaganda in order to deflect away from the positive images emerging from Russia. The second one is that Treason May is in serious trouble with her cabinet and the Brexit negotiations have descended into absolute chaos on our part with the clock ticking rapidly now. The Skripal affair, I am sure, was rolled out to obfuscate the mess of Brexit at that time, this is no different only now, it is a far more serious issue as a No Deal is a certainty. The third is that it would seem to me to be the case that EU countries are keen to maintain good relations with Russia and are still in favour of strengthening ties in terms of energy supply and other factors. Trump and Putin are also due to meet shortly. That leaves the UK pretty isolated and they need some further drama to obtain the support of EU countries for their worthless proposals as to the negotiations. I doubt very much that either of the members of the public in this case ever came into contact with Novichock as it wasn’t the material used on the Skripals. One thing we can be sure of is that there will not be a proper, impartial, police investigation and neither will there be an impartial, proper autopsy.
What I do know is this Government are immoral, liars, grossly incompetent and are making the British Nation look absolutely ridiculous on the world stage. Any hope Liam Fox has of any Trade Deals post-Brexit are blue sky thinking.
Governments (or any other institution or organization), almost by definition, cannot be ‘moral’.
BBC News, the News you can trust, says the BBC ! 😀
https://www.bbc.com/news/help-41670342
First two paragraphs are a hoot.
ALIAS, A Lie In All Sentences.
BBC definition of journalism;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dhsvzh4X4AI5rIC.jpg:large
There remain many unanswered questions about all this, but I do wonder if the gaps are simply being filled by conspiracy theories.
Russia has previous and possible motive. If you accept that Litvinenko was killed by agents acting on behalf of Russia then they must at least be suspects here.
It seems weird that Putin would be involved in such a plot but so many things can be misconstrued on a nod and a wink. Maybe someone trying to curry favour with Putin mistakenly thought this would be a good idea?
As for this tragic couple, maybe they simply did find a discarded vessel containing novichok? Is that really so outlandish?
The ‘curry favour with Putin’ explanation is plausible, but with the World Cup coming up you might expect that they’d think it would do the opposite. But also there’s the letter from Dr Stephen Davies dated 16th March stating no cases of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury AND the fact that they were not killed by ‘military grade’ novichok. But all that is needed is to be prepared to follow the evidence wherever it leads and to be open to the possibility that the British govt may be peddling untruths, even if unwittingly deceived by elements of their own security services, for which there is also form, and to accept that being open to this possibility is not treason but a patriotic responsibility and you will get their eventually. Now off to downtown Moscow to see if I can get a reasonably priced ticket for the match tomorrow.
James, thoughtful comments but I cannot agree with them. If you read the Litvinenko story it all points to the British security services – the story is pretty much the same as the Skripals. Litvinenko’s son and widow believe he was poisoned by the British security services. The Russian Government were not involved with anything to do with the Skripal affair or this one. The British Government has not provided a single shred of bona fide evidence to support their lies on this issue. The Skripals were not poisoned by Novichock either as the OPCW did not identify the substance. What they did say though is that it was of a high purity meaning it was a lab sample therefore deadly with not a single chance of anyone surviving. This then requires the substance to be hermetically sealed in a military container to prevent leakage. Therefore, the perpetrators of the Skripal alleged door handle poisoning (n its own right impossible) would have had to have been wearing hazmet suits to avoid contamination once the substance was released. It is highly unlikely then that it could have been disposed of in a public park as, there can be no question that there would have been many more fatalities for people taking a stroll in the park given the purity of the sample. The substance could not therefore, have been found in a bin, taken home and stored there.
Putin has absolutely nothing to do with any of this and I doubt very much whether anybody who wanted to curry favour with him would do this. No this is a totally fabricated story in terms of the alleged poisoning issued by the Government due to a variety of critical circumstances they find themselves in. I strongly suspect this was nothing more than a drugs overdose being sold as a Novichock story. How on earth do medical staff at the hospital know it was Novichock when the OPCW experts could not identify it as such.
“Litvinenko’s son and widow believe he was poisoned by the British security services.” Yet they continue to live in the UK rather than the warm bosom of the motherland?
I thought it was the son and father not the widow with that belief…she has been fanatical about persuing Russia surely?
Yes. One would have to believe novichok was put on door handle, then assassin didn’t get in car and drive off, or walk to the railway station, but went to a park (near the bench, but not the house) and left the container with a load of drugs paraphernalia where nobody touched it for 4 months. Dawn and Charlie then got it all over their hands, but left no trace whatsoever of it on 30 minute bus ride.
It is nonsense.
“As for this tragic couple, maybe they simply did find a discarded vessel containing novichok? Is that really so outlandish?”
Apparently you don’t know the characteristics of ‘novichok’, the government’s evidence, and the whole evolving and devolving of its narrative.
Outlandish?
Yes.
To me it doesnt sound plausible that they somehow found a syringe (who said this was the technique used on Skripals anyway?)
and that they put this needle into their arm?
I mean, this is no longer on a street junkie-level, its far worse, was Dawn and Charlie really in that bad mental condition that they shoot up whatever thing they found right into their body? I cant believe that as for now.
Jack totally agree.
Seconded Jo. So too many of your comments above. I am however inclined to the view that the Skripals were not targeted as such, although the govt. reaction in demonizing Russia was indeed of a piece with their interest in covering up any connection with the Steele dossier, that little ‘knee-jerk’ being occasioned primarily by the identity of the victim(s).
Without doubt the Skripals did not adjourn to the park bench in order to ‘shoot up on crack’. So what might they casually have done to encourage the near immediate effects of an opioid overdose? Similarly what could Sturgess and Rowley have feasibly done themselves to elicit the same reaction and leave a trace on their hands (of which the fingers form part)? Smoke a cigarette perhaps?
I suspect it would be possible to ‘spike’ a packet of cigarettes without even tearing the wrapper. And an unopened packet could tempt anyone, never mind a drug dependent down on their luck.
A junkie is much less likely to pick up a used syringe than a non-junkie, trust me.
It all started out like this:
https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2622250/incident-at-amesburys-archers-gate/
Hopefully the power cut won’t screw up any CCTV footage from the Area.
Now that’s a very interesting suggestion, re power cuts as a way to shut down CCTV cameras in a given area.
Otherwise, and given the presumed nature of the incident, cutting the power seems like an odd response.
Cutting the power almost certainly would screw up CCTV footage in the area, which might have been the actual point of it.
Something to watch out for in future.
Earlier on this thread somewhat asked the very reasonable question – what possible motive the UK could have had for having organised the Skripal theatre, and I suggested two strong motives. But it has just occurred to me that there may have been another.
My Russian friends, at the time of the original Skripal thing, said that the reason for it was that the Syrian Army, when clearing Gouta, had captured about a dozen UK and US special forces – “handlers”of the Daesh fighters, and to have displayed them on television would have been much egg on the UK/US face, so the Skripal theatre was staged as a diversion.
Anyway no more was heard of these people if they did indeed exist, so I forgot about it.
Did anyone else hear of this? (D Notice?!)
Although the timing isn’t right, maybe you mean this?:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/02/politics/us-british-soldiers-killed-syria-isis-kill-mission/index.html
https://news.sky.com/story/british-sas-soldier-killed-by-is-in-syria-named-as-sergeant-matt-tonroe-11311534
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/02/british-american-soldiers-killed-syria-mission-capture-isil/
Also, to my own amazement, from today(!):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-178728/Syria-captured-SAS-men.html
which is still need to read myself. From a cursory look — interesting story…
I THINK it was on Russian TV news but I didn’t see it myself. I will try and find out more.
The last article is from 2007. Daily Mail website is confusing with dates.
I have found quite a lot on Russian sites from 31st March – 5th April. The men are described as British officers with the SAS who were coordinating the terrorist fighters. I haven’t really dug into the sites but it seems these officers were taken prisoner by the Syrian Army in East Gouta – not by the Russians – and the Russians were declining to intercede on their behalf with the Syrians. Not sure when they were captured.
So – for those with time of their hands…….
[ MOD: Caught in spam-filter, timestamp updated ]
—
If anyone is interested, and reads Russian – “the reason for Britain’s fit of hysterics”
https://news-front.info/2018/04/02/prichina-britanskoj-isteriki-v-vostochnoj-gute-zaderzhali-ofitserov-velikobritanii/
https://riafan.ru/1042198-siriya-segodnya-v-vostochnoi-gute-zaderzhany-britanskie-oficery-poteri-vs-ssha-v-marte-pobili-vse-rekordy
https://edo-tokyo.livejournal.com/7121356.html
https://cont.ws/@Skuratoff/902637?utm_campaign=transit&utm_source=mirtesen&utm_medium=news&from=mirtesen
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/rusbastion/siriicy-vziali-v-plen-otriad-britanskogo-specnaza-sas-v-vostochnoi-gute-5abf99f4f031731b9711b1a1
https://regnum.ru/news/2400003.html
Lily, I was thinking today about Skripal-Russian chemical weapons-Syria link. There are several ‘parties’ in Syria hostile to Russia: isis had been doing well before russians entered, coalition had plan to push Assad away with ‘moderate headchoppers’, Turkey was trading oil from isis-kept fields, Isr@el is still keeping Golan Heights from Syria.
If not Russia, then who could deploy chemicals/stage attack both in Salisbury and Syria?
Isis, may be using hidden agents aka refugees, for the UK part of job.
Could UK cooperate with Turkey for this affair, regarding White Helmets and OPCW? Or qirimtatarlar?
Tatiana – I only started coming on sites like this because I was completely amazed by the fact that the British Government could keep repeating bare-faced, shameless lies, which it doesn’t even expect any but the brain-dead to believe, and of course the more you look in these sites the worse it gets.
So absolutely nothing would surprise me now – gangs of ISIS roaming through Wessex with jars of the MOST LETHAL NERVE AGENT KNOWN TO MAN (made in Russia of course). This miserable, lying second rate government has cut our country adrift from its long-standing European partners, got involved in a dirty intrigue against the incoming US President, and gone out of its way to offend Russia, whose good will was assured without all this c**p. So we have no friends left. I don’t know what is going to happen now but I doubt it will anything good.
Lily, please be sure Russians are not enemies to British people. One Teresa May or even whole government can’t spoil our attitude to your country. There are good times and bad times, now it is bad. Let’s hope they won’t bring us to war, we can sort out the problems over time.
Dogovorilis’ hope I have spelled it right
Tatyana, one answer – Israel.
What has happened with the case of Nikolai Glushkov’s death 8 days after the Skripal attack and who the Russians have opened a criminal investigation of along with Skripals, He was the man who siphoned off Aeroflot money into a Swiss bank account controlled by Boris Bereskovsky. Glushkov was originally sprung from gaol in Russia by the Russian Lugovoi, who also had worked for Boris and was accused of the polonium poisoning Litvinenko.
D notice I assume
FSB killed him in a completely mysterious, undetectable way to send a message to MI6.
Last news item I saw it said he had a male lover, photo supplied of him and it may be contacted to that, because there was no forced entry into his home, he let who ever it was in. I don’t see the FSB doing it because of the world cup.