The terrible death of Dawn Sturgess casts a new shadow over the Salisbury Affair. Dawn appears to have been a popular and well grounded woman with close friend and family ties, whose life had taken a downward turn before being cruelly ended.
The illogical, inconsistent and shifting government narrative over events in Salisbury and Amesbury had appeared so ludicrous as to be tragi-comic. Any sense of amusement is now abruptly dispelled. But less us take a serious and sober look at the government case.
Savid Javid stated today:
We know back in March that it was the Russians. We know it was a barbaric, inhuman act by the Russian state. Again, for this particular incident, we need to learn more and let the police do their work.
Actually, we know no such thing and, contrary to Javid’s deliberate insinuation, the police have adduced no evidence that it was the Russian state.
The media appear to have entirely excluded from the narrative that Porton Down specifically stated that they cannot determine the origin of the poison that attacked the Skripals. Nor has the OPCW. There are scores of both state and non-state actors who could have produced the nerve agent. No evidence has been produced as to the physical person who allegedly administered the poison. In short, nothing so far has been shown which would lead any reasonable person to conclude a case against the Russian state was proven.
I believe this following is the government narrative currently. I hope I am not mistating it:
Russia has a decade long secret programme of producing and stockpiling novichok nerve agents. It also has been training agents in secret assassination techniques, and British intelligence has a copy of the Russian training manual, which includes instruction on painting nerve agent on doorknobs. The Russians chose to use this assassination programme to target Sergei Skripal, a double agent who had been released from jail in Russia some eight years previously.
Only the Russians can make novichok and only the Russians had a motive to attack the Skripals.
The Russians had been tapping the phone of Yulia Skripal. They decided to attack Sergei Skripal while his daughter was visiting from Moscow. Their trained assassin(s) painted a novichok on the doorknob of the Skripal house in the suburbs of Salisbury. Either before or after the attack, they entered a public place in the centre of Salisbury and left a sealed container of the novichok there.
The Skripals both touched the doorknob and both functioned perfectly normally for at least five hours, even able to eat and drink heartily. Then they were simultaneously and instantaneously struck down by the nerve agent, at a spot in the city centre coincidentally close to where the assassins left a sealed container of the novichok lying around. Even though the nerve agent was eight times more deadly than Sarin or VX, it did not kill the Skripals because it had been on the doorknob and affected by rain.
Detective Sergeant Bailey attended the Skripal house and was also poisoned by the doorknb, but more lightly. None of the other police who attended the house were affected.
Four months later, Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess were rooting about in public parks, possibly looking for cigarette butts, and accidentally came into contact with the sealed container of a novichok. They were poisoned and Dawn Sturgess subsequently died.
I am going to leave you to mull over that story yourselves for a while. I believe it is a fair statement of the British government narrative. I also believe almost (but not quite) every single sentence is very obviously untrue. I hope tomorrow to publish a detailed analysis explaining why that is, but want you to look at it yourselves first.
One final thought. I trust that Dawn Sturgess will get a proper and full public inquest in accordance with normal legal process, something which was denied to David Kelly. I suspect that is something the government will seek to delay as long as possible, even indefinitely.
Update (for the fact-based few here who actually follow the investigation):
The seized Audi in Swindon belongs to Keith Mills, one of the paramedics who responded to the ambulance call Saturday for Dawn Sturgess. He may have contaminated his hands or clothes while assisting and subsequently his car. This sounds like an abundance of caution as he is not experiencing any symptoms.
The red van’s driver, has been identified as Ben Milson. No reports yet on whether it was contaminated. The van is being tested at Porton Down but Ben had already cleared out clutter by Charlie’s seat. It is still in a pile in his house: ‘all sorts of things like rubbish, fag butts, cd cases’. Ben said: “Charlie was in the middle front seat. I’m not sure if he brought anything into the van because I wasn’t looking.” Ben sold the van for £1,600 to a local builder from Durrington – where Dawn’s parents live. He wants police to fetch it from his hallway — but they told him to hang on to it until the van results came back.”
Sam Hobson and Craig Pattenden (new) were with Charlie and Dawn when they took a bus from Salisbury to Amesbury on Friday evening. Hobson lives in Amesbury. He said: “She found some sunglasses on Friday and started wearing them. On the bus back she was saying to me and Craig, ‘Do you like my new sunglasses? I found them’. I think it was in the park.” This has set off an implausible chase for the sunglasses and their case.
It’s been reported that Charlie’s hand was more contaminated than Dawn’s, implying both tested positive at PD and both handled the tainted object. Only one hand of each is said contaminated.
“Mr Rowley, who had the highest concentrations of the nerve agent on his hands, is seen buying cans of super-strong lager in Salisbury and sharing a laugh with the cashier, who takes his money and packs up the alcohol. Wearing jeans, a cheque shirt and cream coloured baseball cap, 45-year-old Mr Rowley buys four cans of 9 per cent Karpackie Polish lager from Best 1 Local in Salisbury city centre at 10.06 am on June 29, CCTV obtained by MailOnline shows.”
Shop assistant Kamal Goodall, 55, said “physically he looked OK, he was always quite slow, thin and fragile-looking. He paid for his lager and left and that was the last time we saw him as he collapsed the following day. Dawn usually came in to the shop more often and would buy Charlie stuff (cctv too of her buying four cans). He’d come in now and again. She seemed more healthier than him. It’s really sad that she has passed away. We’re hoping Charlie pulls through’.
The 21 self-reporting worried well include eight police officers and staff, a paramedic, nine medical staff and three members of the public. None are exhibiting symptoms of OP poisoning at this point in time.
Can we please stop this rubbish about massive military-grade containers for utterly minute quantities? Do you not understand yet that the Skripal novichok was reported a vastly higher grade, laboratory? The Foliant novichoks were stored in sealed and numbered glass ampoules in a safe, according to the lead chemist Vlad Uglev who synthesized them. This is standard laboratory practice: a triangular file is used to scratch the thinned part of the glass to crack it off, if there is ever a later interest in doing more with the contents. More common today would be a small metal-crimped glass vial, possibly with a butyl seal that accepts a syringe and reseals. You can buy vials and the two tools for crimping and removing for a few quid at any online lab supply house.
“Only one hand of each is contaminated”.. Sounds strange. What foreign object would need touching with only one hand.?
Off hand, there are few things around my house I only touch with one hand. Light switches, showers and taps first spring to mind. If I was examining something I had found, needed to open etc, I would almost certainly use two hands.
Mary Paul
RE: each hand
Have they shook hands with someone perhaps?
Jack, have they shook hands with someone who was immune to Novichoks or was maybe wearing lab gloves?
Andyouldabour
Yeah, that wasnt plausible perhaps after all, perhaps they both have opened a door handle?
Actually, it could be anything now when I think about it..
One can hide hazmat under this costume
https://goo.gl/images/ciFNeY
and go walking in a park unsuspected, giving handshakes or poisoned leaflets
It’s obvious: THEY SHOOK HANDS WITH EACH OTHER!
Silly billies…
Or a door knob?
Travel Card. Contactless Card.
Yes, may be promotional momentum lottery stretching cards
https://goo.gl/images/gYX87f
Scratching
Perhaps not all of object’s surface was contaminated, so it could be handled with both hands but affect only one.
“Wearing jeans, a cheque shirt and cream coloured baseball cap”
Is that the MailOnline’s typo or yours???
Thank you for the regular updates . Much appreciated .
Thank you for another informative post.
“Mr Rowley, who had the highest concentrations of the nerve agent on his hand”
Curious as he fell ill about 7-8 hours after Dawn, possibly the same amount of time from the Skripals leaving the house to succumbing. Dawn was taken ill first, suggesting she was exposed in the early hours or maybe ingested the poison. Or of course something entirely different happened.
To me , Charlie having the higher concentration but affected later suggests that he became exposed after Dawn had been taken to hospital
In my opinion, I find it very unlikely that Dawn and Charlie came across a discarded recepticle contaminated with Novichok.
If as many wheeled out media experts have said, that Novichok is deadly, then in my opinion, such a careless act by a more than likely experienced state actor/s, of dumping it in or near a bin, knowing full well the potential consquences of such an action, seems to me highly unlikely.
For such an act could’ve lead to the deaths of dozens, or more, if the circumstances were right. An outcome I’m sure that even the perpetrator/s would not want to see arise.
Dead mothers with babies or dead children, tend to imbue investigators and neighbouring allies to strive to find the culprits. No state actor or otherwise would want such focused groups and allies hunting them down clue by clue. Even the guilty parties allies would need to at the very least, publicly distance themselves from this unthinkable outcome.
So what are the other possibilities, could the poison have been planted in their house, or could they have touched something that contained the poison in the last 24 hours before their demise (Skripals managed to go out for a meal).
So which countries benefit from blaming Russia, and if it wasn’t Russia, and again we’re back to the lack of credible evidence then who’s on the suspects list.
We must also entertain the possibility that it could have been carried out by our own security services.
RoS.
“So which countries benefit from blaming Russia, and if it wasn’t Russia, and again we’re back to the lack of credible evidence then who’s on the suspects list.
We must also entertain the possibility that it could have been carried out by our own security services.”
Firstly, I would say that Ukraine, any of the Baltic states, Israel, US, UK would benefit from blaming Russia.
I certainly wouldn’t rule out MI5/6, CIA or Mossad being involved.
“So which countries benefit from blaming Russia, and if it wasn’t Russia, and again we’re back to the lack of credible evidence then who’s on the suspects list…”
I put together a list right at the start of the affair and it hasn’t changed since.
Russian dissidents opposed to Putin. Ukraine government. Turkey. Israel. Saudi Arabia. American MIC. Trump supporters (if Trump dossier is true and Skripal knew that). Trump opponents (if Trump dossier is fake and Skripal knew that).
But at the end of the day all that is predicated on the fact that the Skripal’s were genuinely attacked with Novichok with an intention to kill them. I don’t believe that for one instant . I believe they were incapacitated with something less deadly, by some combination of the above parties, to plant the idea in the public mind of “evil Russia and chemical weapons” as a precursor to the laughably phony Assad chemical weapons attack on Douma. I predicted the Douma attack twice in the Independent comments columns days before it happened, as did many, many others.
And the said parties still haven’t given up. Assad is now making serious inroads in Deraa. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see another “Assad chemical weapons attack” in the coming days, no matter how stupid and utterly implausible that might appear to anyone with two functioning brain cells. But our MSM will diligently parrot that line to the public.
RoS the pets in the house died of malnutrition and dehydration but, again, that was only raised when the Russian Ambassador asked what had happened to the pets? They were quickly incinerated by Porton Down. So, no novichock on the animals then.
an important point you raise and highlights the care and concern britian has for life, or facts for that matter – very little obviously..
There was so much doubt after Skripal, and mocking and jokes about Novichok and its properties… May be the second poisoning was made to prove Novichok really exists and it CAN kill.
Proof for those who expelled russian diplomats without evidence, proof for public, may be proof for Skripals, or all of it together.
Nice one!
Looks like the pressure is piling onto Theresa May. Or the Brexiteers are purging themselves.
“Two vice chairs of the Conservative Party, Maria Caulfield and Ben Bradley, are quitting their posts in protest at Theresa May’s Chequers Brexit compromise plan.
Both have warned they will lose their seats unless the Tories deliver Brexit.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44785797
In this land of make believe, where only the government line however dubious has to be believed , this line must be promoted no dissent is allowed not one single newspaper or media outlet has questioned what the government have told the service people to say , they probably are not giving information as they know it but just parroting the government line. Just doing as they are told, now where have we heard that line before ” just doing my duty ” , What’s the line ‘ the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing ‘ I wonder how many involved can honestly answer if questioned, was the statement you made yours ? or were you told what to say , I suspect most if not all would choose the safe answer , it’s a very brave act taking a government on it usually doesn’t end well for the individual, but that’s how evil works through fear .
That explains why the Tories have excluded Corbyn from the Salisbury briefings (unlike Cameron who kept Miliband in the loop regarding security briefings) – they know full well that Corbyn would blow the whistle on them.
Robert, admirable analysis. Just one thing though, you refer to ‘in the land of make believe’ – I would say ….’In a fascist state….
Two more resignations from the Tory partei – Vice chairs Ben Bradley and Maria Caulfield. Both have warned they will lose their seats unless the Tories deliver Brexit.
Theresa made some space today to attend the service for the RAF Centenary today. She read one of the lessons.
On the way a strange feathered creature made contact with her hat.
https://goo.gl/images/LxG6pp
Ben Bradley, elected in Mansfield last year (and is a remainer) faced criticism after comments emerged showing he had once suggested that unemployed people should opt for free vasectomies rather than continuing to have children they could not afford to support.
In a blogpost, Bradley claimed that the country would be soon “drowning in a vast sea of unemployed wasters” if workless families had four or five children while others limited themselves to one or two.
A month later, Bradley was forced to apologise to Jeremy Corbyn and make a donation to charity over a tweet making claiming the Labour leader “sold British secrets to communist spies”.
So, the Titan of the Universe alights in Scotland this week, the man who can facilitate and eventuate Scotland’s Independence at the flick of a tweet — and where is Quisling to be found?
Not doune the rabbit hole but down the boghole.
The US Ambassador (the billionaire from the Johnson and Johnson fortune) is hyping up risks to US citizens during the Trump visit to the UK. He is being provocative.
’10 Jul 2018
‘Keep low profile’ – US Embassy warns citizens ahead of Trump UK visit protests
In what will likely plunge the already fraught US-UK ‘special relationship’ into further doubt, the US Embassy in London has felt the need to warn its own citizens over upcoming protests against Donald Trump’s visit this week.
US President Donald Trump is set to land in London on Thursday for a three-day visit to the UK. Demonstrations against his much-delayed visit are planned across the country, with more than 55,000 expected to hit the streets of London.
The US Embassy has now issued a set of guidelines to US citizens ahead of the mass protests, which include keeping a “low profile” and staying alert if in the proximity of the crowds, as they may “become violent.”’
https://www.rt.com/uk/432503-embassy-guidelines-trump-protest/
Meanwhile Trump is naming Putin as a competitor. What’s the matter with this stupid man?
‘Vladimir Putin is a competitor but getting along with Russia is a “good thing,” Donald Trump told the press before embarking for Europe, causing another Twitter meltdown ahead of his summit with the Russian leader next week.
Asked on Tuesday if the Russian president was a “friend or foe,” Trump remarked: “I really can’t say right now. As far as I’m concerned, he’s a competitor.” Trump also said that it was in Washington’s interest to foster better relations with Moscow and Beijing.’
Trump describes Putin as ‘competitor’ ahead of Helsinki summit https://www.rt.com/usa/432506-trump-putin-competitor-friend-foe/
Good to learn that the US Ambassador is being provocative – obviously the Mayor of London urging people to protest and authorizing the flying of a giant “baby Trump” effigy is in no way provocative.
If you are the Mayor of London protesting the President of the US must be so much more important than acting to protect the victims of spiraling knife crimes in London.
Maybe the US Ambassador is simply doing his job and has noticed that which you apparently have not noticed. This coming weekend you have the virtue signaling weirdo’s gathering to boo and hiss at President Trump. You have a lot of people gathering to protest the imprisonment of Tommy Robinson – people who may well be reinforced by people who think that the government is in the process of not leaving the EU. Given that the Mayor of London has refused permission for a pro Trump rally it is possible that some people may show up either to support Trump or to protest not being allowed to support Trump. Into this mix is a possible England appearance in a World Cup final – something that is likely to ignite nationalistic passions.
Whilst the British don’t seem to care how many of its citizens are stabbed or bludgeoned to death or terminally poisoned the US actually seeks to protect its citizens. Whilst you might be happy to see a few dead or maimed Americans littering the streets of London – the US Ambassador takes a different view. Maybe the fact that he actually does hos job may go someway to explaining his wealth.
Satire or genuine idiocy? Impossible to tell, I’m afraid!
Twats like Khan think that getting on the bandwagon of hating Trump will make them more popular. We just look at this sad non-entity, his calls for more gender neutral toilets in the multicultural shithole city with its out-of-control murder rate he presides over and say “Wish we had a Donld Trump in charge over here”.
I agree with about everything you say here.
With all the sound evidence on hand, I will predict it was Colonel Mustard having a Gas with a Paintbrush in the Nursery. The impermeable security at Porton Down is likely quite porous, About the only item not escaping is truthful evidence, contained behind walls of national security, never to be seen. What happenstance provides has the appearance of an industry converting an incapacitating nerve agent (BZ) into the next generation’s party drug – ecstasy like high with LSD kinks thrown in, but haven’t yet got their substance compounded down to usable form. All on the hush-hush not to upset the Lords of the opium trades with made at home alternatives. Now, hapless Dawn Sturgess becomes the first fatality.
The Parliament complex in London would better be used by razing the edifice to the ground, salt well as was Carthage the footprint, and put up a parking lot, maybe dedicated to Richard III to endure as long as it takes to restore his reputation to its rightful stature. The creatures inhabiting that building will soon enough find shelter under nearby rocks and monuments. Appearances from afar indicate the best argument against the Parliamentary form of government rests with the Mother of all parliaments – where did all those creatures come from?
In my career in the U.S. military, I have repeatedly been stationed at places where I had access to very highly classified materials (TS/SCI). At all those places, security checks when exiting were so haphazard that it would have been very easy to smuggle such materials out.
Observing, the military may be the final social institution where integrity might function, like to admit it or not the military structures are built upon integrity, no soldier would willingly expose themselves to existential danger for those whose command they don’t trust. Saying that, a codicil must be applied, that being the military is the last institutional refuge for integrity as long as political considerations do not take precedence over their military missions; politics and military are a fatal combination, even Clausewitz recognised that. But when political awareness (or unawareness) takes precedence over military requirements, then what you have observed in your remark surely happens.
I see Defence Secretary, Gavin Williamson, with his unique omniscience has joined the other third rate politicians who blame Russia for the poisonings. He says: “The simple reality is that Russia has committed an attack on British soil which has seen the death of a British citizen,” he told MPs. ”That is something that I think the world will unite with us in actually condemning.“
Well, it seems to me the world is starting to unite in thinking the Tory government and their complicit media pals are a bunch of lying shits.
“Well, it seems to me the world is starting to unite in thinking the Tory government and their complicit media pals are a bunch of lying shits.”
That’s nice of the rest of the world to catch up with what we’ve known for a few decades.
Garth, problem is, if the official narrative is to be believed (and it is not) then this couple found a discarded container left over from the Skripal poisonings in a park bin – so don’t see how Russia can be blamed for that given that park bins get emptied probably every day and there had been a very publicised clean up of Salisbury
Who said it was in a park bin? They could’ve found it lying in a hedge. Amesbury is about 8 miles from Salisbury and beyond the original clean up area.
“Who said it was in a park bin? They could’ve found it lying in a hedge…”
“Hey Boris. Now that we haff carried out our dastardly plot to assassinate Comrade Sergei, what will we do with the leftover Novichok – one of the most deadly poisons known to mankind? The smoking gun? The evidence that could lead back to our glorious leader Vladimir? Shall we dispose of it in a way that it will never be found?”
“Don’t be ridiculous Stanislav. Over there is a hedge that seems almost designed to have stashes of porn concealed in it. Let’s throw the leftover Novichok in there so that some jakeys can find it and the whole of the British mainstream media can continue to demonise Lord Vlad the Impaler. You know it makes sense!”
Stonehenge is within the boundaries of Amesbury parish.
When I point to Stonehenge being 3 miles out, my posts gets deleted. Ok, I am not a paying member.
The ‘simple reality’ is for the simple minded.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nerve-agent-poisoning-inquiry-spreads-to-swindon-as-car-seized/ar-AAzPD5z?li=BBoPWjQ
“He later told MPs in the Commons that Porton Down scientists had been able to recover novichok from the blood of Sturgess and Rowley.”
So its not the enzymes they are looking at, the actual nerve agent passes through the cells and resides in the blood. Well bugger me with a sharp thing!
“Locals say the Audi belonged to former RAF serviceman Keith Mills, a paramedic who treated Ms Sturgess before her death and was once honoured in the House of Commons for treating a wounded soldier while under fire during a tour of Afghanistan.” DM
I wonder if it is the same paramedic that arrived first at the bench?
Is that the one that arrived withing 60 seconds on the 999 call being made?
It is curious his personal car was taken. Presumably he has an emergency response car and would have changed clothes and likely showered prior to going home.
In fact it is even more curious. He has worked for the Wiltshire air ambulance since June 2015. So I wonder if he was aboard the day it went 40 miles around the houses before heading for Salisbury?
Its seems the liberals in the US actually want a civil war because they cannot accept that Donald trump is their president. Of course, if there were to be a civil war we’d be looking at the two extremes doing the actual fighting, which means gender fluid snowflakes versus right-wing death squads armed with AR-15s. Are the libs sure they want this?
Oh, grow up ffs. Don’t bring your fake news here – it’s not big and it’s not clever.
Grow up like fly a big orange baby over London to greet a visiting US president?
Anon1, Would you really welcome a civil war in the US, given the complexity of weapons available?
Seriosuly?
Your “bring it on ” attitude marks you out as an absolute, brain out lunatic.
No I wouldn’t. But radicalized by the media, some of the liberals are so extreme in their hatred of Trump and their inability to accept him as president that they are more or less openly calling for it now. I’m merely pointing out what an unwise move that would be for them.
I don’t know who Anon1 is – but he likely has little real influence to start a civil war.
Maxine Waters on the other hand is a long serving member of the House of Representatives, has a public profile and is probably more influential than Anon1. This would be the same Maxine Waters who has called for people to aggressively confront members of the Trump team anywhere and anytime that they are in public.
There is always a risk in aggressively confronting people going about their lawful business that they will not take kindly to being so confronted – and may respond with aggression of their own.
I am sure there is some reason why you consider it appropriate to advise that Anon1 is an “absolute, brain out lunatic” and remain totally silent regarding Maxine Waters. Whatever your reason may be it is unlikely to be founded on any desire to avert a civil war.
A US civil war would raise the global average IQ.
“Absolute, brain out lunatic” for observing that some liberals in the US seem to want a civil war.
Not the people who actually want the civil war, of course. Presumably they’re sane.
The US has been at civil war since its inception.
Baked into the project.
The lower ranks in the U.S. military and the police, I.e., the people with guns, are Trump supporters.
I thought that the right to bear arms means that, in the US, one doesn’t have to be in the military or the police service to join the group called “people with guns”.
Isn’t it time for the protection of other citizens to investigate the possibility that some rogue employee from Porton Down is not on a pathological murder spree.???
With the current Russian/Putin stitch up, if a serial killer with a PD employee number could carry on killing with impunity .
Why is nobody noticing Keith Mills is not a land based paramedic yet he attended Dawn and Charlie. He works for Wiltshire Air Ambulance – which begs the question did he also attend the Skripals?
His car being taken away would rather seem to indicate he did.
A paramedic might only touch one hand to take a pulse and has gloves on for protection.
Pure speculation but again media not asking any questions.
Patrick, I’m amazed to know this. But how to link Keith Mills in the affair? I’m trying to invent a plausible theory.
Maybe Charlie collected a contaminated object from Mills’ garden?
The obvious answer is – was there one person at both incidents.
The hospital is the same, many persons must be at both incidents. Medics arrive AFT
…AFTER the incident, not before
It carries on getting more curious. One of his neighbours is RAF Cpl Sarah Jones, so RAF staff seem to live round the area.
Dawn Sturgess and Charlie are apparently a couple. But according to the narrative, when his partner starts foaming at the mouth and is rushed to hospital, rather than join her at the Hospital and await news of her condition, like anyone would (even a vaguely close friend), he goes to get his methadone script and then chills out at a Church fete.
Does this suggest that he could not have been on land ambulance crews that went to Amesbury? It seems reasonable for land and air ambulances to be based in the same location (near a hospital) and share crews members occasionally if not regularly.
Why has the UK government not asked for the OPCW assistance this time ? We only have Porton Down ‘s word telling us it is Novichok . Actually , did Porton Down communicate this or did the police or government communicate on their behalf ?
I do not believe for a second that there was a container left behind . The story is too far fetched and suddenly the proprieties of Novichok changed to suit resisting for 4 months and a forensic clean up .
There are far too many details , to much cctb , too many witnesses , too much clutter to make this story believable to the public .
The Skripals , I do not believe it was novichok and the OPCW report is carefully worded around that , it never mentions novichok . It states it identified the chemical agent identified by Porton Down .
My view is that they were targeted due to the Steel Dossier and that Sergey was the source and main author . The DNC ordered it via a 3rd company , most of the dossier is fabricated and that could not come out . Mark Urban from the BBC interviewing Sergey several times last year and keeping very quiet about it in March shows me that it was Sergey the source of the dossier .
This last attack was not random . Either the couple witnessed something in the park they shouldn’t have or they were part of delivering something ( unaware of what ) to the Skripals and they had to be neutralised .
The rest is clutter , a lot of clutter to make the story credible . All the abundance of witnesses and statements , cctv , regular hospital updates in sharp contrast with the Skripal case : fuzzy cctv , nick bailey vanishing , witnesses never heard of again , no details .
If this is being treated as domestic incident, then OPCW doesn’t have to be involved, I reckon. Perhaps the idea is to construct a combined narrative, taking the “motive” and some OPCW credibility from the first incident, and genuine Novichok and a Russian trace (to be found) from the second one.
Russian news report Charlie regained consciousness
Another crazy theory, ,I hope you enjoy it )))
During chemical defence training a scientist from Porton Down presents training at Salisbury Hospital. He meets a pretty doctor and falls in love with her/him. This scientist is crazy and he poisones Skripal to have a chance for new contact with his beloved. Scientist knows who Skripal is, and he informs Mrs. May that ONLY Russia can produce Novichok, to divert suspicions away from himself.
The scientist and the doctor are being in contact on medical question until Skripals recover and leave.
4 months later the scientist hopes to see the beautiful doctor again. He enjoys feeling of importancy, being asked difficult questions on misterious poisoning.
So he decides to poison another victim. But to avoid some laughable details (he doesn’t like to be laughed at) – door knobs, pets, victims recover and look even better.
Delivery method involves two victims, one part of the compaund for each from the pair. Novichok activates when victims shake hands! (Thanks Dave54)
It’s more believable than most of the “theories” advanced here.
If you put that on paper it will be a bestseller.
Following Anon1, I’m buying it too.
That is a brilliant hypothesis, Tatyana! Probably not done that way though… far too clever, and maybe the mixing agents are themselves poisonous.
Tatyana, get some sleep, you’re cracking up.
Lorna Wilkinson, the director of nursing at Salisbury District Hospital, said there had been a “small but significant improvement” in Mr Rowley’s condition. “He is in a critical but stable condition, and is now conscious,” she added. “We are not out of the woods yet. Charlie is still very unwell and will continue to require specialist, round-the-clock care.”
This is a significant development for the investigation. Not quite the same as up and talking. Or remembering anything about the tainted object. Or being released from the hospital It seems his dose was less than DS Nick Bailey which was much less than Yulia’s which was less than Sergei’s.
Not much was ever disclosed about DS Nick Bailey, whether he was ever unconscious or in medically induced coma. He left the hospital on March 22nd, so 18 days after the attack. Two other officers, PC Alex Way and PC Alex Collins, also attended to the Skripals on the bench at the Maltings but do not appear to have had any [clinically significant] health issues.
/=/=/=/=/=/=
Massive persistent confusion is actually quite common among people who could not conceivably ever been exposed to novichok:
(1) None of the novichoks are especially toxic (except within the organophosphate class of chemicals). For example, botulinum toxin (which is not an OP but prevents vesicle release of acetylcholine) is something like a 1000 times more toxic than novichok A234 on a per nanogram basis on an injected basis.
(2) Just because something is really really toxic doesn’t mean you can’t get a dose so low that it is practically asymptotic. For example, low botulinum toxin (botox) is routinely used to block nerve transmission in facial muscles, relaxing wrinkles. Some people have called for trials of low novichok in facial moisturizers based on perceived benefits it brought to Yulia’s appearance.
(3) “Sajid Javid [BA in economics / politics, ex director at Deutsche Bank] told MPs Porton Down scientists had been able to recover novichok from the blood of Sturgess and Rowley. It was too small an amount to establish if it was from the same batch”
Not one peep has been heard from an actual PD scientist or even spokesperson over the last 4 months. Not one clue has been provided as to specificity, sensitivity, chemistry, reliability or field portability of analytic methods. No molecular structure has been given out for “A234” for which numerous opinions have surfaced over the years. However there is a vast scientific literature on OP poisoning, its diagnosis and treatment given 200,000 deaths per year (insecticides).
Depending on the reactivity of the particular OP, its dose and route, elapsed time, hospital fluid drips and flushing, a small reservoir of intact molecules can persist in plasma or be regenerated from reversible binding. However nerve gases and novichoks are very reactive, binding rapidly to AChE, BChE, HSA among others. If all the AChE active sites in the body were occupied, the person would asphyxiate within minutes from paralysis of diaphragm muscles alone. Serum albumen is a far more abundant sink. Thus PD more likely looks in plasma, not whole blood, for agent trapped on specific serines or tyrosines, as altered from the original novichok molecule by alkyl leaving groups during aging.
Just to repeat one last time: no binary novichok was ever produced according to its original developer Vlad Uglev. He did not work for the Russian Army but liaised with them over their endless requirements for the perfect agent suitable for military use. The military wanted penetration of NATO protective gear, binary storage for safety, industrial chemical ingredients, light weight for artillery shells (ie high toxicity), sufficient persistence on battlefield (low volatility), sticky adjuvants, on and on, a list Uglev consider preposterous and unattainable simultaneously. He came to the opinion army command had little sincere interest in chemical warfare and was just putting up obstacles to adoption.
Looking now at the OPCW-approved Iranian synthetic route, the precursor chemicals and reaction conditions are implausibly complicated for a last-minute mixup. Prof Collin’s synthetic route is much easier and could be done outside a positive-pressure charcoal air filter fume hood with a sufficiently complex but fragile glassware setup.
Binary agents make no sense whatever for small-scale assassinations as a tiny sealed jar of cosmetics or lip balm is perfectly safe for the courier and would sail through customs (if any). Here PD supposedly said lab grade, which means a few grams at most and highly technical purification steps to get rid of byproducts which are inevitable in binary reactions with no followup.
Right, the weird phone camera shot of the CCTV screen inside the store was not even part of the town’s comprehensive — and operational — hi tech system. Not one frame has been released in four months of the 2500 hours downloaded by police after the Skripal incident. In contrast, we have all sorts of store footage of Dawn and Charlie buying liquor.
At a cost of £400,000 Salisbury’s CCTV is a state of the art colour system with high picture quality, even at night. It has suffered glitches and breakdowns in the past 12 months, following its introduction, but was by chance full operational in the weeks leading up to the nerve agent attack.
“The coverage is extensive and very good, including around the Maltings shopping centre area where the Skripals were found,” said Salisbury council leader Matthew Dean. “If there’s something there to be seen the police will see it.”
Someone asked above where Charlie got his cheque shirt: perhaps from India or thereabouts.
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Tom, thank you for your most informative comments!
Sorry to sound boring but thanks again for another bunch of informative posts.
It is interesting contrasting how this case has been handled compared to the Skripal’s. It feels that there is a lot more information available this time with the investigation. As you mention what happened to the CCTV footage of the Skripals?
Also I was thinking how it appears odd to me that the nature of the poison hasn’t been mentioned. They have multiple samples now, yet do not say what it was mixed with or well anything at all. Only novichok (or sometimes A234) is used to describe it, a whole class of shadowy chemicals where not many know the properties.
Either the UK government is covering up the truth, or they are trying really hard to make it look like a conspiracy.
I have been pondering that the contaminated hands and multiple hours to take effect does not add up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86og0-sLl9Y
If these people are wondering around Salisbury and Amesbury for hours they will be transferring it to everything they touch. This means that from their initial contamination they will lose a fair amount as they put their hands in the pocket, wash them, use money, pick things up, etc. Therefore whatever dose they absorb they must have been contaminated by much more.
You would expect a trail of contamination and poorly people. Though it appears that little contamination has been found and no one, not even Sam was cross contaminated. Strange.
Yes, it is hard to make any sense out of what we know.
Now I could envision Dawn picking up a small interesting object in the park with her hand, handing it over to Charlie, who handles it briefly but thinks it not worth salvaging and tosses it in the Avon. As some 90% of the UK are right-handed, with one hand (fingers in this scenaro) of each testing contaminated, I would expect it to be the right hand in both instances. Their families would know if either were left-handed.
As you say, this leaves them going about all day touching things but not notably contaminating them, with diminishing contamination after each touch as novichok is put onto objects in the environment but remaining contaminated enough test positive after arrival in the hospital. Here we do not know the sensitivity of the PD test. It could be exquisitely sensitive to the slightest residue.
But why aren’t more objects testing positive? Perhaps they are … we’ve just been told they have not found the object, not that the cars, flats, clothes etc are all testing negative.
Why aren’t more people needing hospitalization? If they are affected but sub-clinical, that cannot be distinguished from normal by the enzyme assay the hospital is using, plasma BChE, because as with any blood test, there is considerable normal variation within the population (eg thyroid TSH). In fact if you have 50 things checked, the lab robot will look up each of the population variations and set an output line to blinking for the drs convenience if and only if something is off at a statistically significant level.
These two individuals are well-known in Salisbury and exactly who they appear to be, rather than master spies of some sleeper cell of some conspiratorial foreign state. They were accidental victims; it could just as well have been anyone in their social set. It was all about the timing, all about applying fresh coat of black paint on Russia.
But how could the assailant know someone would pick up their planted object in a timely way, be severely dosed yet not die on the spot, and later present OP symptoms sure to catch the eye of hospital staff? If it were given out as charity, — which satisfies timing — who tales objects from someone wearing two pairs of nitrile gloves?
If it were a left-over discard tossed after the Skripal attack, then we are left with a second implausible coincidence in World Cup timing and in anyone ever picking it up and being detectably affected.
Someone made a very interesting point up-forum, to the effect that perhaps a series of street people had in fact handled the object over the last four months, gotten sick and recovered, or died without cause of death being established because that was unremarkable for their demographic. Charlie and Dawn were simply the last in this line and notable because their level of exposure got them noticed at the hospital (but just barely).
Here we don’t know how many “drug overdoses” and “bad batches” the hospital has seen over the last four months. I would guess it is near-daily occurrence. Possibly some of these were also novichok cases. Yhe hospital got this wrong initially with Charlie and Dawn but possibly got prodded for a sample by PD who somehow knew these cases were different. [Heroin, like carfentanyl, affects mu-opiod receptors unlike acetylcholine, resulting in dilated rather than pin-point pupils, and would never be confused with organophosphate poisoning at A&E intake.]
Good point there…when people meet..ie Dawn Charlie and Sam…..most people shake hands….don’t they?
@ Tom Smythe July 10, 2018 at 22:35
Useful info, and what one would expect from modern CCTV.
French sources said the CCTV was off when Princess Di’s car went into the tunnel (yet a clip later emerged, as well as a CCTV speed ticket issued a minute or two before Di’s car entered the tunnel; why, as Di’s car was said to be speeding, did not the speed camera clock that?
7/7 London Bombings: the No. 30 bus had had a thorough safety overhaul a day or two before, yet it was said all three CCTV cameras on the bus weren’t working; NOT ONE picture of the so-called tube bombers on London Underground stations or trains was ever made public, just on of one of the alleged ‘suicide bombers’ leaving a chemist on Kings Cross Main Line Station. Westminster Bridge and London Bridge/Borough Market CCTV very poor quality.
At what point do folk wake up, and think to themselves, too many odd ‘coincidences’.
If CCTV footage of those events was ever made public you’d simply find a way to convince yourself it was all faked so what would be the point?
Another bingo.
Good points.
There has been no Crimewatch style appeal on the TV for witnesses.
I do suspect the Wiltshire police’s opinions on this differ a lot from the Met and the spooks.
The clue in all this charade is that there are not enough contaminated people ( thank goodness ) for the scenarios to be real.
Did you know there are 2 locations named Porton Down near Salisbury?
Here is wiki articles in english
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porton_Down
And in russian
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Портон-Даун
The second paragraph (missing in english version):
…
Technopark Porton Down is often confused in the press with the nearby CBRN training center (chemical-biological-radiological-nuclear training facility, training center for protection against chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear hazards). This training center is located to the south of Porton Down, near the village of Winterbourne-Ganner [en], 6 kilometers northeast of Salisbury….
Yes, I can’t see a direct link on the English page to CBRN, the Russian page has a link to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Defence_CBRN_Centre&action=history which is in english.
As far as I can see there have been no edits there by Mr/Mrs/Ms Cross
Is there any connection berween Porton Down training center and Syrian first responders?
Heartbreaking news about Dawn Sturgess, but the latest reports about Charlie Rowley are looking like a replay of what we heard about Yulia and Sergei Skripal at the end of March.
The prospects for the Skripals back then were grim even if they survived, according to Sergei’s niece Viktoria Skripal and his close friend Ross Cassidy, in separate interviews. Then a couple of days after those remarks, we were told that Yulia was improving rapidly and was conscious.
This time, Charlie has gone from the brink of death to consciousness within a couple of days:
“Mr Rowley remains critically ill in hospital and doctors told his close family he has ‘just days to live’, MailOnline has learned.
Dawn’s grieving mother Caroline confided in the hours after her daughter’s death: ‘It’s not looking good for Charlie either. Maybe a few days. He won’t pull out of this either. He’s just alive with the machines.’ ”
Good news that he’s now conscious, but yet again you simply can’t believe anything that’s reported .
Are we still meant to be “sticking” (heh heh ) with the Gloop story?
The Gloop enabled the novichok to persist on the doorknob supposedly
Just that I’m picturing a very irritated, swearing Russian spook struggling to spray gloop on a doorknob from a luxury perfume bottle
Why did the massive novichok dose take so much longer to take effect on the Amesbury couple, compared to the Skripals?
And Charlie, who according to family is less robust than Dawn, took a full 8 hours longer than Dawn to succumb.
Of course , that timing supposes that the contact originated in the Elisabeth gardens. That scenario is crucial to the leftover Skripal poison story.
If in fact the Amesbury couple were poisoned in Amesbury, which timing would suggest, that points to a separate incident, and the necessity of a little audit of PD’s CW stocks
I mean for godsake, if this was in Russia , Brits getting poisoned in the little town of Shikany(ex CW facility), then another incident not far away, we’d be crying out for Putin to be strung up
Yes, very true, Maureen. There is also a military facility nearby, referred to in the original comic book “V for Vendetta”, which in 2016 was earmarked for considerable expansion.
The area is surrounded by MoD/UK.Gov establishments/danger areas . . .
see https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/51.1554/-1.7424
But I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.
And with state-of-the-art security like this
https://goo.gl/maps/uhiZPS7wL122
I can’t imagine anything could go wrong.
My dear Juan.
That is a lay-by on one of the Salisbury Plain training areas reserved for tanks and other military vehicles.
You see when you actually know the area and you see someone so utterly clueless starting to opine about it based on what they have found on Google maps you realise what a fool’s game this internet sleuthing lark really is.
Thanks for biting. If it weren’t so late I’d spend some time reeling you in.
Don’t worry, Juan, you are not alone. There are people on this blog who really ought to know better (and probably do). Some of them in the course of their research on Google maps discovered that Salisbury is close to Porton Down, allegedly the UK’s chemical weapons research facility. They then, in a stroke of genius worthy of Poirot himself, put the two together and decided that the poisoning of the Skripals MUST have been carried out by the British state. Sheer brilliance! If only the British state had noticed the mistake in their dastardly plot.
Occam’s razor, mate.
Lot’s of chemical stuff happening around a govt chemical place.
Obvious.
So what are you doing here then — other than bravely defending & guarding Isr@el?
The “danger areas” are live firing ranges. At certain times they are closed to the public because otherwise you might be run over by a tank or hit by a shell. Most of the time you can walk your dog there, fly your model airplane or go off-roading. The whole area is the largest training area for military exercises in Europe, hence there is a lot of army camps.
Of course, if you’re an internet-based detective and you’ve done 5 seconds research on Google maps, you can decide it all looks very sinister and probably a UK version of Area 51.
The choice is yours. Free country and all that.
You seem to measure others’ wit and intellect by your own aloof gullibility.
Just because you know every blade of grass in the area because of walking your dog doesn’t make you an expert on British conspiracy theories starring the Russian State.
If you’re talking of Imber,Wilts., or Tyneham in Dorset, there are many life shells and only a few tracks are cleared as safe. It took years to get back even limited access after they were seized by the MOD. The compensation that should be paid to those forced to leave their homes and to their heirs dwarfs that due in Salisbury and Amesbury.
Hopefully the great bustard will repopulate Salisbury Plain once the Army leaves .
Oh look another one. The only reason Salisbury Plain training area is still grassland habitat and so good for wildlife is because the land is used by the military. Otherwise it would have been turned over to intensive arable agricultural land like the rest of Salisbury Plain.
Take away the defense budget and give it to (Wild)life preservation and your whole implied silly and shortsighted argument collapses.
Keith Mills, Air Ambulance;
Don’t You Just Love It When A Plan Falls Apart!
The Skripals house and that of Nick Bailey is to be bought by the British public and presumably destroyed because they are so hopelessly contaminated….we are told
Given that the Skripals spent far more time in the Salisbury hospital post poisoning than in their house ,for at least 2 or 3 days when “bad” drugs were suspected, rather than novichok, shouldn’t the Salisbury hospital be demolished?
The present British government is much more destructive than any “Russian” vial.
The Pakistanis did the same with the compound where Bin Laden was hidden: destroy any evidence.
looks like they are working at demolishing the uk parliament at this point… i think that is a better place to start!
There are loads of sketchy places round there – check this great site – Dark Places https://www.dark-places.org.uk/sites/all/list/index.html
I have always found it hard to agree anything with Melanie Phillips. She is almost the complete direct opposite of me.
1. I disagree with her about almost everything, except over the 20 or so years I have been aware of her, I have very occasionally thought well yes, I agree with you – that is a good idea. Its a bit like agreeing with Habbakuk maybe once or twice every 3 years.
2. About 20 years ago, this girl starts talking to my wife and I in the pub, and she says she is a journalist. She looked rather like Melanie Phillips. The following week this girl turns up in another local pub, and I am holding a pint of cider and blackurrant for my wife in one hand, and a pint of Speckled hen in the other hand. This Melanie look-alike comes up to me and greets me with open arms, and is all over me. I think, well I am not pouring a pint of Speckled Hen over her head, I wil think about the cider, if she doesn’t stop.
3. I agree with her – All the politicians are completely useless, and almost all of them want to stay in The EU.
4. Melanie anad Me want out -Straight BREXIT – Just Out. No fee. No Agreement. Just a Mutual Fck Off.
5. There is a big Wide World there to Trade with. If The EU doesn’t want to buy our stuff, then fine. Don’t expect us to buy your overpriced stuff either. We wil make it and grow the food ourselves. Loads of our fields are just sat there doing bugger all – The Farmers paid by the EU to do nothing.
Tony
The only thing you can be certain of in regards to all this nerve agent junk is that you will never know what happened. You are all banging your heads against a wall. Even if one of them had a ‘road to Damascus moment’ and told you squarely what actually happened, nobody believes a word politicians or authority figures say today.
There are a few things we know, though. Porton Down’s very existence is yet another shameful stain on Britain’s character. Britain today reminds me of something the character Rick in the Young Ones said about his underpants — “it’s only the stubborn under-stains that are holding them together”. The sooner Britain is decommissioned, the better.
I read today that, according to a new academic study, the top 10 most deprived areas in the UK are all in Glasgow. How sad. Glasgow needs investment; the sort of investment and reconstruction you’d conjure up after a war or a tsunami. Nobody including the SNP (for political reasons) seems to give a fuck, though. We’ve to talk up Scotland…
Glasgow is a city that has contributed trillions to the collective coffers over the centuries, and now it’s left to rot and die like some unloved old pensioner who is too weak to contribute and pay her way.
Shame on you all, Craig Murray included, for devoting yourself to irrelevant crap like this Novichok stuff when so many in the country are in misery and dire poverty. You deserve to live in your British sewer. Sincerely.
@ Hatuey July 11, 2018 at 00:25
There is a case for priorities, and Glasgow’s run-down estates are not equal to what could well lead to an existential threat to the whole of Britain, by constant baiting and slandering Russia, and provocative ‘War Games’ on their borders.
Glaswegians will find themselves in a far worse situation (as will we all) if the balloon goes up – and the Neocons are ‘pushing the packet’.
What vanity. Maybr after you save the world you’ll realise it actually wasn’t even worth saving.
So you think a nuclear war with Russia provoked by either by a random criminal actor or rogue current/ex MI6 officers will improve the Gorbals?
Craig points out that the British insist that the Russians “decided to attack Sergei Skripal while his daughter was visiting from Moscow.”
That is a point that has nagged and nagged and nagged at me since this all began, because it makes absolutely no sense at all.
Here is some old, unfit and unhealthy geezer that you decide (why?) to bump off after having released him from prison and left him well and truly alone (why?) for many years. This old coot lives alone, with no security protection, who makes no attempt to hide his identity or his location, and his habits are highly predictable.
He is, by any measure, an easy target for an assailant.
Oh? What? His daughter is visiting? So he won’t be sitting at home all alone? Gosh, that’s the time to strike!
I mean, honestly, how does that make sense?
If you know this solitary old coot is going to be having a visitor then you move the hit forward before that visitor arrives, or you wait until after she leaves. What you don’t do is launch your assassination attempt at the *precise* moment when that temporary visitor presents an unnecessary complication.
After all, wait until they hop in the taxi that takes her to Heathrow for her return flight and *then* smear your Novichok nonsense all over that door knob. You are certain he is going to touch it when he returns, you are certain he will be going *into* the house, and you are certain that there is going to be no-one in that house to greet him, which means that there will be no-one to witness his demise or to offer him any medical assistance when that nerve agent finally strikes him down.
But, nooooooooooooooo, let’s do it when he’s got his daughter staying with him.
What could possibly go wrong?
One thing we know for a fact.
D-Notices were issued.
Why?
Well it created a major international “incident” hence it justified a D notice. Also the Met police these days, on any major investigation they lead, adopt need to know policy to updating the public (after being caught out in some major mis-speaks in the past) – this policy generally takes the view that the public needs to know nothing.
Ahm — aren’t D-Notices issued by the Security Services in coordination with the home secretary?
By the by, “a major international “incident”” is not a fact, it’s an assertion, made by politicians.
One that begs the questions: what are the facts, what is the evidence, what happened.
the uk under may and boris the comedian committed an international incident with their insinuations and bullshit.. that is much more on point.. if they were trying to make the uk the laughing stock of the world – they succeeded..
I think her presence might be significant in another way: she is his only close family, save for his mother in her late 90’s. If the plan was to “kill” rather than kill, Yulia had to be included: it would not be feasible to keep him incommunicado from his own daughter. Works the other way around too as she has no close family of her own.
“it would not be feasible to keep him incommunicado from his own daughter”
Of course it is: just keep him in an induced coma. Or even just claim that he is in a coma.
The complaints of a daughter in far-off Moscow could be ignored, and if she wants to come to Britain to attend to her sick ol’ dad then they can simply deny her a visa.
I’m no legal expert, but I suspect that what you described would not be legally possible. She would have a right to know too much about his condition and treatment. I also doubt you can keep people in induced coma for many months. Longest case I could find is about two months and they had difficulties waking the patient up.
“She would have a right to know too much about his condition and treatment.”
Surely the same is true of Sergei Skripal’s mother, only….. nobody in Britain is telling her Jack Shit, and she appears to be completely unable to “exercise her rights” from far-off Moscow.
“I also doubt you can keep people in induced coma for many months. Longest case I could find is about two months and they had difficulties waking the patient up.”
I’m not convinced that this would cause any sleepless nights amongst the British authorities who have real skin in this game.
Remember, the original suggestion was that the assailants wanted to stage a simultaneous “hit” because otherwise Yulia would be around to ask too many embarrassing questions.
I mean, honestly, you’d have to be an Utter Bastard to even contemplate double-tapping Yulia and Sergei just to stop her asking questions later. And if you are such an Utter Bastard then why would you care about what “rights” she claims she has to some answers?
Just tell her to f**k off and ask Vladimir Putin and, oh, yeah, visa denied, bitch.
After all, any authority that can stoop to murdering her dad is also going to have no qualms about trampling over the “rights” of his daughter to some answers about how and why he was killed.
@ Yeah, Right July 11, 2018 at 00:29
‘…it makes absolutely no sense at all….’
It doesn’t need to make any sense when you have the 4th Estate in your pocket.
“It doesn’t need to make any sense when you have the 4th Estate in your pocket”.
And the Metropolitan Police.
Fifty years ago in the USA a few individuals in various positions of authority, who recognised the danger ahead, stood up for the rule of law, the first amendment, and freedom of the press. Here there appears to be such widespread ignorance of the necessity for such principles that their erosion/extinction is passing largely unnoticed by an increasingly servile public. If they are not re-established, and soon, I fear the UK will inevitably become a virtual dictatorship, if it has not become so already.
well given that Yulia is Sergei’s only surviving close family member , maybe it was meant as a warning to anyone preparing to act against interests of Russian security in some way and intended as a warning: Cross us and we will wipe out you and your immediate family, anywhere in the world you are not safe. So even if someone was prepared to risk their own life, they would stop at risking the lives of their children.
Mary Paul: “Cross us and we will wipe out you and your immediate family”
That makes no sense: in what way has Sergei Skripal “crossed” the Russian Federation since his release?
His initial spying on behalf of Britain obviously didn’t rise to that level otherwise the Russians would have dragged Yulia and her dear old Grand Mother into the prison courtyard with Sergei and shot all three of them on the spot. After all, at that time the “betrayal” was still a raw nerve and all of the Skripal’s were in the tender bosom of the Russian state.
It would have been Bamm! Bamm! Bamm! message sent.
It should be obvious that the Russians made a decision that, yeah, OK, sure, his only “value” was as a swap for some Russian spies, and it should also be obvious that **if** Sergei had then lived out his life in boring solitude in Salisbury then the Russians would not have given a rats-arse about him. He’d served his time, he’d proved useful as a swap, he’s no longer of interest.
But I am certain that Sergei didn’t settle down to the boring life of a harmless old coot.
I would bet good money that good ol’ Sergei got up to some significant mischief in his “retirement”, and it is those shenanigans that caused someone (not necessarily the Russians) to want him to be Terminated With Extreme Prejudice.
I would bet good money that Sergei post-spy-swap conspired with Christopher Steele and Pablo Miller in some adventure that really, really, really piss off some very powerful people, and as a result someone amongst that list of very powerful people decided that he had to die.
As to who that person is, heck, I don’t know.
But if I were drawing up a list then the name “Putin” would be pretty low. And quite a few Brits and Yanks would be listed much, much higher.
So who are we to believe?
“Paul Cosford, the medical director for Public Health England, specified that the novichok was in liquid form. He said it took effect between three and 12 hours after exposure, suggesting they could have come into contact with the nerve agent in the early hours of Saturday 30 June.
Asked how long the novichok could last, Cosford said: “If it was outside, exposed to the elements, it gets washed away and that’s safe. Anything left over from March just wouldn’t be there by now.”
or
Vladimir Uglev, who worked on the substances for 15 years, said the nerve agent would likely stick around in Salisbury for many years to come. It was “near impossible” to detect, he added; it would be hard to know where it may be lurk
“The substance can absorb itself into any soft surface, whether trees, leather, or park benches,” he said. “From there it can be absorbed onto people’s skin with all the consequences.”
I think it’s safe to disbelief the bulk of it.
It’s unlikely any Novichok was used, anywhere.
YMMV.
The trouble with these ex-Soviet scientists is that they are shameless rent-a-quote who are quite likely over-selling their knowledge and access to whatever went on in Soviet times. Valdimir Uglev has gone from saying the reason the Skripals survived was because it rained overnight and A-234 reacts with water to now saying it is going to last 50 years.
I have just been reading Vil Mirzayanov’s 1995 report and its sprinkled with howlers – he appears to believe sarin and vx are unitary agents – which they aren’t. They can be deployed as a unitary agent, but they function well as a binary agent. He thinks BIGEYE was a chemical rather than a delivery system.. You get a clue to what motivates these people by this confession from Mirzayanov: “I was forced to eke out a living selling goods at the Moscow flea market” Who wouldn’t want to reinvent yourself a chemical weapons defector and get a nice US government salary?
A-234 exists, it is toxic and it has properties. But there is no reliable guide from ex-Soviet scientists to what they are because they overtly change their tune to the twists and turns of unfolding events.
What I do recall is very early on in March the great Hamish de BG, chemical weapons expert extraordinaire, said it was quite a viscous, heavy fluid (in contrast to sarin which is quite volatile). I think that is probably a reliable statement, although what his basis for making it I can’t say unless he had been in direct contact with people who had possessed some at some point.
@ Maureen July 11, 2018 at 00:58
I suggest Humpty Dumpty is now in charge of the ‘Directorate of Accusations and Assesments’:
‘..“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all…..”
I think all scientists agreed that Novichok is a family of substances. Perhaps their properties do vary that much?
When we heard of it first it was supposed to be a battlefield weapon that killed immediately. Now PHE are saying NO symptoms for 3 hours. And symptoms may not be manifested for up to 12 hours. Not much use on a battlefield.
Also contamination could last 50 years. Again not much use if you want to occupy territory.
What makes Keith Mills’s Audi seizure interesting is that he does not seem likely to have treated the Amesbury victims. Although Telegraph quotes his neighbour as saying he has. Wiltshire Air ambulance base on Outmarsh farm is clearly not shared with land ambulances (but Wiltshire police is next door). Am I right to assume that both Sturges or Rowlie were taken in by land considering suspected drug overdose and their backgounds?
The HEMS have an Emergency Response Car as well as the helicopter for bad weather/mechanical problems stop it flying. So Keith Mills could have been in that for Amesbury. For Salisbury he could again have been in the car or chopper.
Reporting after Salisbury named an early arrival at the bench as only ” Ian”, Ian is a common name but Wilts Air ambulance have someone called Ian Pothecary.
The air ambulance crew is normally a pilot and two paramedics.
So possibly 3 WAA paramedics were at Salisbury, Keith, Ian +1, two in the chopper and one in the car (which was there remarkably quickly). If it was WAA car it would explain how chopper got the shout at 16.19.
It doesn’t explain why it flew in wrong direction.