We are continually presented with experts by the mainstream media who will validate whatever miraculous property of “novichok” is needed to fit in with the government’s latest wild anti-Russian story. Tonight Newsnight wheeled out a chemical weapons expert to tell us that “novichok” is “extremely persistent” and therefore that used to attack the Skripals could still be lurking potent on a bush in a park.
Yet only three months ago we had this example of scores from the MSM giving the same message which was the government line at that time:
“Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: ‘These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'”
In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed. But now the properties of the agent have to fit a new narrative, so they transmute again.
It keeps happening. Do you remember when Novichok was the most deadly of substances, many times more powerful than VX or Sarin, and causing death in seconds? But then, when that needed to be altered to fit the government’s Skripal story, they found scientists to explain that actually no, it was pretty slow acting, absorbed gradually through the skin, and not all that deadly.
Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.
According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.
If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.
I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.
Both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess still have active facebook pages and one of Charlie’s handful of “Likes” is a mortgage broker, which is consistent with his brand new house. They don’t give mortgages to unemployed heroin addicts, and not many of those live in smart new “executive housing” estates. Both Charlie and Dawn appear from their facebook pages to be very well socialised, with Dawn having many friends in the teaching profession. Even if she has been homeless for a period as reported, she is plainly very much part of the community.
Naturally, there is no mention in all the reports today of MI6’s Pablo Miller, who remains the subject of a D notice. I wonder if he knows Rowley and Sturgess, living in the same community? It should be recalled that Salisbury may be a city, but its population is only 45,000.
The most important thing is of course that Charlie and Dawn recover. But tonight, even at this early stage, as with the entire Skripal saga, the message the security services are seeking to give out does not add up. Mark Urban’s piece for Newsnight tonight was simply disgusting; it did not even pretend to be more than a propaganda piece on behalf of the security services, who had told Urban (as he said) that Yulia Skripal’s phone “could have been” tapped by the Russians and they “might even” have listened to her conversations through the microphone in her telephone. That was the “new evidence” that the Russians were behind everything.
As a former British Ambassador I can tell you with certainty that indeed the Russians might have tapped Yulia, but GCHQ most definitely would have. It is, after all, their job, and billions of our taxes go into it. If tapping of phones is seriously presented as evidence of intent to murder, the British government must be very murderous indeed.
“Salisbury District Hospital has seen a number of members of the public who have come to the hospital with health concerns since this incident started and none have required any treatment.”
Same identical statement four months ago about the 40 worried well that showed up at the hospital after the Skripals and Detective Bailey. But that needed some revision after Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess, didn’t it? With them, Porton Down did not provide confirmation until Wednesday, so about 4 days after admission but more like 2 days after receiving a blood sample.
That was a very decent referral by hospital staff given the unlikelihood and other plausible diagnoses. Keep in mind a small A&E is not set up to handle mass casualties, especially not if the reception facility itself becomes contaminated in a snowballing effect. But even with a very limited event, they don’t want drs to be overwhelmed by nervous nellies.
While we remain in wait-and-see mode pending confirmation, police and other early responders are definitely at elevated risk for exposure, as in the case with DS Bailey. It’s never been explained how Bailey got exposed (some say the red purse) and he remains inaccessible to the press to this date. He had some symptoms, had gone home, gotten worse, went back in.
We don’t have the name of the Swindon officer here but presumably he helped out at the Amesbury end of the investigation rather than down at Salisbury QEG. Great Western is a large competent hospital and would not send a patient with mild sniffles down to Salisbury.
Rowley and Sturgess may have inadvertently escalated the situation by opening pandora’s box, as it were. The novichok may have been “safely” contained all this while. However it’s very difficult to imagine a state-sponsored team leaving all this evidence behind, especially since they’ve had four months to retrieve and dispose of it “properly”.
I think you are making the mistake of believing that these people were poisoned by novichok. The symptoms that the Skripals were being treated for was opiate poisoning. The two that were found in Amesbury were apparently drug addicts.
I think one characteristics of a psy-op is to tell many lies so that innocent members of the public end up believing some of it must be true. People cannot handle the concept that it is all lies. I repeat, these people were not poisoned by novichok or any nerve agent. The symptoms simply do not match.
What astonishes me is the belligerence of the UK government and it’s stooges in the security services in pushing this narrative. This lie. I would not be surprised if England are forced out of the world cup now that one of these people has died.
I had crazy dreams last night after reading all the comments in a single sitting so I’ve decided to register and share my thoughts. Just like the Litvinenko poisoning I think the Skripal poisoning was another botched job that if had gone to plan would have been a near perfect murder. In both cases if the dose had been greater then it would have killed them within an hour with Litvinenko looking like a brain hemorrhage and Skripal a heart attack. I know it might seem crazy but up until these events UK pathologists didn’t previously check for radiation or Novichok™ if a plausible more common cause of death appeared likely. The polonium and Novichok™ were only discovered because doctor’s were forced to search for the cause of the deteriorating health in patients who were still alive with unusual blood test results.
I think its likely that the would be Skripal assassins had concerns that Mr Skripal was aware that an attempt on his life was imminent and was being actively protected by covert bodyguards who could ambush them because there are much easier and effective ways to kill. Why else would they go to all this trouble? They obviously believed that a scenario akin to Jill Dando or Kim Jong Un’s half brother was just too risky so something a little more creative was in order. Delayed poisoning via his doorknob would give him the ability to shave his beard and flee the country before poor Mr Skripal’s fate was sealed. I think the rain saved him by diluting the dose and if it had been heavier rain for longer then Mr Skripal would have lived a few more days of good health until they got him another way.
Here’s how I imagine things went down:
The assassin left his hotel room with a tobacco tin in his pocket containing a couple of syringes, vials of the two binary agents disguised as water along with a decoy sachet of citric acid, an alcohol swap, disposable spoon and a tube of Vasaline. If he had been stopped and searched by law enforcement he would have claimed that he was on his way to buy some heroin from the local dealers hanging around the park because he had earlier lost his mobile phone. Once he arrived at the park he would put on his expensive but dirty looking Gore-Tex gloves and mixed up the Novichok™+DMSO+Vasaline sludge in the spoon before smearing it onto the palm of his left hand glove. On his way out of park he went into the bushies for a piss using his right hand and dropped the tobacco tin containing everything into the 12 inch deep core hole he removed the night before and closed it by stamping it with the heel of his shoe. The urine allowed him to muddy it over and pat it down real nice.
Unfortunately for Dawn the recent heat wave caused the tin to migrate upwards and get nudged to the surface by a badger or something. At first she thought she had struck gold and was disappointed to discover it lacked any tobacco but it was a nice looking tin which she gave to her boyfriend who isn’t scared of needles to clean it up for her. She probably hoped that there was some usable heroin in there too 🙁
Does that seem plausible folks? It obviously didn’t happen exactly like that but something similar probably did. I really enjoyed watching the TV series “The Americans” and can’t recommend it enough if you are interested in spy tradescarft. For the record I don’t think our would be assassin was under the control of the Moscow centre. Mr Skripal’s treachery no doubt ruined many lives and his more recent yarns that made their way into Christopher Steele’s Trump dossier may have opened up some old wounds and pissed off some dangerous people.
I’m not sure I believe Seymour Hersh anymore about anything after hearing that surreptitiously recorded phone call about Seth Rich.
Your theory was a good read. I started really paying attention to this story now that Dawn Sturgess died. She and the boyfriend were recovering addicts but in the one video they have of her she is at the liquor story buying a bottle of some type of liquor. So she and he could have been using heroin again or just drinking. At any rate if Mr. Skripal really was part of the Christopher Steele Trump dossier than it makes sense that one of the players that plotted against Trump thought Skripal was going to talk and tried to silence him with the poisoning. The whole truth about trying to set up the Trump camp is all going to come out. If this is related it will be explosive. How these two innocent people got exposed is confusing. Unless that’s what they are trying to do, confuse us.
This is the most reliable source: https://twitter.com/wiltshirepolice Verified twitter account
Pleased to confirm that the police officer who sought precautionary medical advice at Salisbury District Hospital in connection with the incident in Amesbury has been assessed & given the all clear.
A Wiltshire police officer is seeking medical advice at Salisbury District Hospital in connection with the ongoing incident in Amesbury. This is a precautionary measure. We would like to reiterate the advice from Public Health England that the risk to the wider public remains low.
Not that anyone here knows anything but for future reference “if you have information about the ongoing incident in #Amesbury please call one of our dedicated phone numbers. Freephone: 0800 092 0410, or 020 7158 0124 if calling from abroad.” They have received over 300 calls to date.
Note too the friend Sam Hobson, a very high risk associate, is not affected to date. Police are calling him on the hour though.
Cui bono ?
Porton Down is being used as a registered controlled substance research facility, where the biotechnology Company GW Pharmaceuticals is developing with the help of Hortapharm B.V. unknown medicinal strains and cannabis related patents.
Home Office minister Victoria Atkins’ husband is a director of GW Pharma.
After the Skripals poisoning, defence minister Gavin Williamson granted an extra £43 million to Porton Down.
It is being widely reported that the medicinal use of cannabis will be made legal in the very near future.
Ker-ching..
“There is no risk to the wider public”, Public Health England.
Let us be clear, they would never, ever under any circumstances stray from this line, even though it obviously wasn’t the case this time with the two new casualties, still they will wheel it out.
Even if there were one hundred casualties we’d hear a “There is no risk to the wider public”, and “Everything is under control”.
They’d be foolish to say otherwise, and we’d be equally foolish to believe them.
Here’s the thing that puzzles me.
I have no more better theories than anyone else, but the contamination of the policeman in the case of the Skripals is the most baffling.
The “fact ” that the government and the media concentrate on is that the door handle was contaminated with the substance.
Mr Skripal by definition then would have this substance on his hands. Logically there would have been contamination on his steering wheel- door handle and gear – stick – handbrake and so on.
Was this found?
Yulia ( if she didn’t touch the door handle of the house ?) was contaminated a different way. How I’ve no idea.
The policeman was at the bench where they were found. He and the medics were not contaminated there.
The story goes that the policeman went to Mr Skripal’s house after visiting the bench.
So is the tale that the policeman was contaminated as he tried or entered the Skripal’s house by the substance on the door handle?
Did he break in or did he have a set of keys? ( the door handle contamination suggests he had doorkeys,
If he did, how did he know where the house was?
Surely we need to try and explain ( as opinion of course – not fact ) as to how three people became contaminated by one door handle if the handle is the focus of all contamination for all three contaminated people.
Also it needs to be explained as to why it took so long for the effects of this ” deadly pure ” nerve agent to take effect at the same time for the Skripals and later for the policeman?
Ditto the current victims.
If the door handle is the source of the three contaminations then each individual will have touched handled
glasses in the pub – knives and forks in Zizzis or filing cabinets in the nick and so on.
Yet – none of the pub staff are ill – none of the restaurant staff have reported any problems and the station where the policeman worked was not overrun by people in biohazard suits.
My current theory is that this attack was not Novichock as no-one ( thankfully ) has died but something slipped into a drink in Zizzis or the pub, hence its delayed effect.
If I’m close with this opinion then the door handle nonsense is either a media/government fabrication for public consumption or it was carried out after the three fell ill.
None of the explanations make sense to me.
I have just seen that the lady has died, so I hope I’m wrong in my opinions, because if I’m not the State
has got itself into a terrible position and if the truth comes out that people have been sacrificed in a geopolitical game, then those responsible will be held to account in the future. No amount of media spin will bury that.
As I have said before an important issue here is to establish if this policeman was a local CID officer or an ‘outsider’ ie Special Branch.
“There is no risk to the wider public”, Public Health England.
Let us be clear, they would never, ever under any circumstances stray from this line, even though it obviously wasn’t the case this time with the two new casualties, still they will wheel it out.
Even if there were one hundred casualties we’d hear a “There is no risk to the wider public”, and “Everything is under control”.
They’d be foolish to say otherwise, and we’d be equally foolish to believe them.
Also take into account, the two residences occupied by our ‘odd couple’.
The Baptist Church hog-roast attended by Charlie and the John Baker hostel, where Dawn stayed!
Now examine the time-lines! there was at least 4-6hours reported on Sat 30th June between each being admitted to Salusbury General Hosp.
Which Org’ runs the Hostel?
It is named after Bishop John Baker, so the Church of England I would think. Which is not the same as the Baptists.
The Daily Mailing had an article yesterday saying Dawn’s mother and straight ex-partner both have security clearance and work at MoD Boscombe Down.
I wonder if Dawn did too, at some time. Seems most everybody in Salisbury is either involved in MIC or a down and out.
I’ve read so many wild theories and propaganda whilst waiting for some definitive results.
Without anything further coming up we have to go back to the simplest and most obvious solution.
If the Salisbury father and daughter were not Russian with spying histories we would never have heard of novichok. That is a reasonable conclusion.
Both the Amesbury couple and Russian duo have in common visiting gardens, brushes with flowers and consumption of alcohol. The most logical conclusion is poisoning from flowers exacerbated by alcohol. Poisoning by flowers can have numerous eventualities like the role of bees, distance of their travel etc.
There has been no independent verification of the presence of novichok. OPCW is not independent. In fact given the outcomes and lack of evidence novichok can be ruled out. That would leave some serious questions to ask of Porton Downs.
I refer to the link below and ask for some comments.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11213530/Gardener-died-after-brushing-past-poisonous-plant-in-millionaires-garden.html
It would be ironic if it was some random cause and not a Kremlin or SIS op.
If the police weren’t so sold on the Russia explanation an examination of both couples movements, and if there was someone or something or someplace in common, might help.
Now that England won and Russia lost it will be too electorally expensive for the Tories to pull their successful team out now. Even MI5/6 can understand that. Novichok on the back burner now.
In jest back in March I mused if a scratch card was the delivery method.
The only CCTV we have of Sergei and Dawn we have is in convenience stores.
Sergei being “so lucky” made me wonder if someone (maybe the Russians) was paying him via winning scratch cards. If quizzed by his Handler he then had an explanation for his excess money.
Maybe Dawn bought a scratch card intended for him, or picked up the laced discarded one and scratched it to see if there was any missed winnings.
Or they could have used the contaminatef scratch card as a roach in a joint.
Now that the “case” has been taken over by the Met, I don’t automatically believe any official announcements. This is the police force that knew fairly quickly they had shot an innocent man on 7/7 and yet still produced “eye witness ” reports by afterwards untraceable witnesses, that Jean Charles de Menezes was wearing a padded jacket and leapt over the underground ticket barrier, and ran down the escalator,.
to make him seem a suspicious person, and justify shooting him, when he was wearing a denim jacket and made his. way to his seat normally. There are other instances where the Met has form in creating or suppressing evidence. So I take official comments from them with a pinch of salt these days.
justify his shooting, when he was in fact we stumbled denim
please ignore scrambled last line above (rolls eyes)
The man wearing the padded jacket who vaulted over the barriers was an undercover police officer described as being of Asian ethnicity. Upon entering the carriage he tackled De Menezes, while other officers behind him yelled at everyone to get out, moments before the shots were fired. The witnesses on the carriage naturally believed the padded jacket man must have been the suspect who was killed because in their mind it was him who had acted suspiciously and “grabbed a fellow passenger”. They gave their stories to the media, not knowing they had described the wrong man instead of De Menezes who was that very fellow passenger. The police failed to inform the media, when they knew the truth, and why the witnesses had confused the two.
Contd.
The police failed to inform the media, when they knew the truth, and why the witnesses had confused the two. Because, having killed an innocent man, it was very convenient to have witnesses accidentally describing the deceased as having acted suspiciously.
I don’t see the relevance of this as it’s two completely different events years apart. I mean it’s not as if the same person was in charge of policing these events …..oh wait…
> …the fond hope of a research grant.
Certainly true. Noone is the chemistry community would dare question the politics.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/uk-to-invest-48-million-in-new-chemical-weapons-defence-centre/3008786.article
Dawn’s son just shared some more details with Daily Mail:
“Novichok victim’s son fears she may be brain-damaged as he reveals her heart stopped for 30 MINUTES after ‘picking up nerve agent vial from Salisbury park drug den'”
The latest couple poisoned by Novichok picked up the deadly nerve agent vial from a park where dealers hide their stash, according to a neighbour. Tom Ricks, 31, claims drugs are often stored at the hideout in Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. He thinks Dawn Sturgess, 44, and Charlie Rowley, 45, picked up a drugs package contaminated with the poison before taking it home. It was at Mr Rowley’s flat in Amesbury, nearby in Wiltshire, where the couple fell ill last weekend.
The pair are both fighting for their lives with Ms Sturgess’s son Ewan, 19, terrified she could be brain damaged after her ‘heart stopped for 30 minutes’. Mr Ricks, a mechanic, 31, told The Sun on Sunday: ‘I think it already had Novichok on it. ‘That or they picked up the Novichok container from the same spot. It is terrifying.’ The couple, both known to struggle with alcohol and drug addiction, are still in a critical condition at Salisbury District Hospital. A police officer was also treated for symptoms there, but was last night given the all clear by medics.
Queen Elizabeth Gardens is just a four-minute walk away from the bench outside The Maltings shopping centre where the Skripals were found poisoned earlier this year. Ms Sturgess’s son claims her heart stopped beating and she was starved of oxygen for half an hour as she fought for her life. He has previously hit out at her treatment, saying she is not being dealt with as a priority, like the Skripals, because she is a ‘nobody alcoholic’.
He told The Sun: ‘They said she had the same symptoms as the Skripals. ‘I told her, ‘I love you, mum. I just want you to wake up and get better’. Home Secretary Sajid Javid visited Salisbury today where he said he is ‘confident police and counter-terrorism forces will ‘eventually get to the bottom’ of what happened. Wiltshire Police is now dealing with the second major investigation involving the deadly nerve agent this year, after the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March. Salisbury District Hospital also treated Mr Skripal, 67, his daughter Yulia, 33, as well as police officer Nick Bailey, who fell ill after he came to assist them.
All three eventually survived, with Mr Skripal the last to leave hospital, on May 18. Several sites are being searched by the local and Scotland Yard counter terrorism officers, including Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury, a property at John Baker House, Rolleston Street, Salisbury, a property on Muggleton Road, Amesbury, Boots the chemist, Stonehenge Walk, Amesbury, and the Baptist church on Raleigh Crescent, Amesbury.
What are the chances of a Russian hit man randomly dumping a vial in the exact spot similar vials are left by addicts?
Either it was left at the time of the hit (by someone with local knowledge) or it was planted more recently for this exact purpose.
Even more bizarrely maybe Sergei chucked it in the river after “feeding the ducks” and administering the novichok to himself and Yulia (a suicide pact to implicate Russia) and it went down the river to become visible after the drought.
Or even more “down the rabbit hole” the UK and Russia have come to a quid pro quo. England will win the World Cup. In the euphoria the vial is found, it has Sergei’s DNA and fingerprints on it. It becomes obvious it is a suicide pact and Russia is exonerated.
Of course there is no vial – but who will ever ask to see it?
Queen Elizabeth’s Gardens seems to be the natural place to dump it if the attack took place near Zizzi. Look at Google maps showing the route (link below), there’re no other parks or discrete places nearby. Avon river is closer, but it’d be more noticable if you throw rubbish into it. Still, it’s ludicrous to assume that a professional would dispose of poison in this way.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Zizzi,+1%2F3+Castle+St,+Salisbury+SP1+1TT/Queen+Elizabeth+Gardens,+Cranebridge+Rd,+Salisbury+SP2+7TD/@51.0691794,-1.8015075,17z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4873ebf0589b2087:0x9107cae2497a24b2!2m2!1d-1.7967856!2d51.069884!1m5!1m1!1s0x4873ebee5dfdb55b:0x55c200a9ea39dbe3!2m2!1d-1.802133!2d51.0679458!3e2
My point is not what DID happen, but what TPTB may put forward as a plausible explanation to allow Princes William and Harry to go to World Cup Final.
Skripal suicide pact/vial chucked in river during duck feeding/vial floats downstream/exposed by drought/picked up by Dawn.
The Russians, even if they did do it, are hardly going to contradict.
Does Home Secretary Sajid Javid really understand the English language?
He says that the British government will “not jump to any conclusions” about the Amesbury attack after he has concluded that it is a repeat of the “barbaric attack by the Russian State”” in the Salisbury incident.
Doesn’t he mean the UK will not jump to any new punishment by imposing additional sanctions on Moscow? .
Indeed, they won’t jump to conclusions, they’ll just stick with the conclusions they jumped to a couple of months ago!
Secretary Javid, like officials here in the USA, need not understand the English language.
These days, Western politicians rely upon para-linguistic phenomena: primate gestures, e.g. chest-thumping and feces-flinging, and Orwellian doublespeak.
Blair was the master of Inverting the English language. Remember him commenting on a Governme minister who resigned after being caught shagging another man’s wife whom he thought he had got pregnant and who misused his position as Home Secretary to steal travel warrant for the use of his mistresses best pal as having resigned with his ‘integrity intact.’
>>QE’s Gardens seems to be the natural place to dump it if the attack took place near Zizzi. see Google map route.
Indeed. Have you worked out the route from Sergei’s door handle to QEG? If roundabout, it would count against the door handle scenario, not that it ever had the slightest credibility.
Unless this is a fresh round put out by MI5 or similar, intended to snare drug addicts of no concern (there being no more Russians around), again timed to discredit the World Cup.
I’m not clear from Tom Rink’s commentary exactly how these park heroin stashes worked. Are they covered in leaves or buried a bit in soil? MI5 could put out its own tainted heroin in the expectation that it would quickly be discovered or taint someone else’s knowing it would soon be sold and put to use.
I’ve been puzzled by the quick referral to PD, could this have been tipped to the hospital? While hospital staff are uniquely familiar with the symptoms of A234 poisoning, those are not terribly distinct from street drug AChE inhibition and here there was a horrifically confounding overlay of pre-existing medical conditions on both Dawn and Charlie.
Sorry, that was Tom Ricks, not Rinks. There is someone for an enterprising reporter to go round the site with. He would know if it is common for local addicts to steal each other’s stashes at Lizzie Gardens or frowned upon. If the former, when Charles and Dawn left the blanket group, it was possibly to forage for tins rather than purchase or use what they had brought. That would set them up for a planted tin rather than a discarded phial. The tin may have gone back to Amesbury but its contents entirely consumed or gone up in smoke. They are saying through the skin, no supporting evidence supplied, that would have novi smeared on the tin rather than on the heroin. Their bus seat then could well be contaminated.
Now Tom Ricks is being quoted to the effect it was “a park drug den” seemingly a fixed “crack hideout” or shared community facility used by local (not county line) dealers, rather than separate private at-risk stashes. Perhaps distinctive tins?
“The latest poisoning has revealed a side of Salisbury the city prefers hidden: a desperate world of rough sleepers, hostels, heroin addicts shooting up in car parks and street drinkers. Phillips says that hard drugs are readily available in Salisbury. “I was living under the Maltings car park when all this first happened in March. I’d say there were 40 or 50 addicts in that car park.
Harris was seen by specialists after he also fell ill last weekend, around the same time as Rowley and Sturgess. “I had diarrhoea and vomiting on Saturday morning. I was in hospital from Saturday evening until Sunday morning. I was checked by Porton Down scientists and thankfully I got the all-clear,” he says. Harris thinks that Rowley may have touched the vessel containing the deadly nerve agent while “bin diving” – retrieving unwanted electrical items from wheelie bins [small dumpsters] to sell at the local Cash Converters [Australian pawnshop chain].
Earlier onset than envisioned would greatly change search prioritiies: The last time he saw Sturgess was on the Friday morning. “She wasn’t herself whatsoever. She was confused, spaced, not with it.” She had been sofa surfing until finding hostel accommodation 300 yards from Zizzi’s.
A map in Sun shows Skripal’s home as being on Highbury Avenue or nearby, 10-20 min. walk from QEG. There are much closer unpopulated locations to discard if you walk north, but I guess suitability would depend on where the perpetrator was heading afterwards. QEG would more likely be on someone’s way it seems.
I’ve no first-hand experience with drugh stashes, but I’ve seen a few CCTV recordings how Russian druggies look and find them. They appear to be well buried in soil as a rule.
Skripal came to Britain in 2010, the year Russia were awarded the 2018 World Cup. According to the Danish film; A world cup of Spies there was a lot of FSB activity in the UK at the time relating voting at FIFA . Christoper Steele & MI6 were pretty busy as well, trying find out how the Russians were influencing the vote. David Cameron spent £20m on the UK bid for the tournament and was “upset” when he was bested by Putin.
There is a lot to go on there. Was Skripal still acting for Russia? Was Cameron so angered by defeat that he was prepared to instigate a false flag to disrupt the competition? Was Christopher Steele so upset at being deceived by Skripal that he took revenge? Is the Amesbury incident aimed at covering someones tracks???
CS’s first job with his new company Orbis was to be employed by the English FA to dig the dirt on FIFA’s choice of Russia for World Cup.
Another job was to trump up the pee pee dossier which the Skripals may have contributed to.
And now we have the confluence of the two, in Orbis’s backyard.
Well we are a bit handicapped here by not knowing how off site drug stashes work. But I would be very surprised if they were communal. All the drugs would be taken by the first person to get there, and I cannot see a dealer leaving drugs there for collection. It seems more likely it was a private stash of some sort shared by Dawn and Charlie (in which case they would generally know what they had stored in there) to avoid keeping their stuff on site where they lived in case of being picked up and then raided by police or indeed other druggies looking for a fix. And I cannot imagine that any of the bins or dumps they riffled, would go uncollected for 4 months. It does look as though they found something which had been disposed of in a “secret” location, or disposed of recently. And I also think the authorities know more than we are being told. Has everyone forgotten that Dawn was taken to hospital at 10.30am on saturday in an ambulance and when Charlie went at 6.30pm, it was in full on safety mode and the road where he lived was under lock down later in the evening. That suggests they diagnosed Dawn earlier, subject to proof by PD, although maybe at that stage not fully aware of her connection to Charlie. The delay in informing the public for 4 days suggests a secret search for the source, but one which was unsuccessful and the situation could not be concealed any longer from the public.
Secret drug stashes are popular means of delivery of purchased goods. Buyer pays online and receives instructions on where and how to collect. The two never have to meet, enjoying anonymity and security. I read claims by police that nowadays most retail drug deals are done in this way. The hiding place needs to be relatively large and discreet to avoid being caught or theft of drugs, so QED would be one of a few good local choices. Perhaps they went to pick up their purchase or try to steal someone else’s.
MP: “The authorities know more here than we are being told.”
Right. Whenever Metro says an investigation will take many months, you know they are not investigating at all. Or if they are, nothing further will be disclosed. In these events, all the news is at the front end. Within days it is throttled.
MP: “The delay in informing the public for 4 days suggests a secret but unsuccessful search for the source and the situation could not be concealed any longer from the public.”
Right. How frigging long does it take ‘100 detectives working around the clock” to search a bin wheelie, a bus seat, two tiny apts and a few bushes in a pocket park using rapid on-site novichok detection? It takes 2500 hours of snoozing through irrelevant cctc on overtime hazard pay, that’s how long.
The whole focus now is public reassurance: ‘our failure to find anything is a success’. It’s safe to go out now (but do laundry when you get home).
My sense is that the Wiltshire policeman was not ‘all clear’ but instead had mild novichok exposure that would not benefit particularly from medical support, which consists of ambulance atropine and a brief course of oxime but mostly waiting for the body to naturally replace compromised AChE at a safe house in the Caribbean where you can talk shop with DS Nick Bailey. His name, contact information, site duties, and symptoms have not been disclosed. And will not be disclosed. Patient privacy concerns are often trotted out but patients often waive these. If asked.
Now what exactly would “all clear” mean? An enzyme assay no farther than two standard deviations away from the population norm. You would get sent home at the 65% functionality level:
“Organophosphorus (OP) insecticide poisoning is responsible for significant mortality and morbidity. The case-fatality of OP self-poisoning is high and there are over 200,000 annual deaths worldwide. The RBC-AChE and PChE [same as BChE] levels were measured, using the Test-mate ChE point-of-care device …Rough guidelines: normal 80-100% of average, moderately severe 20-50% of normal, severe poisoning less than 20%. See figure 1.
BMC Health Serv Res. 2014; 14: 104. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015291/
One “off the wall” piece of research showed that organophosphates are used as insecticides in e.g. cat flea collars. From the article, this seems to be a regular occurrence that vets would be familiar with. What did happen to the Skripals cat anyway?
https://www.cat-world.com.au/poisoning-in-cats.html
‘Sajid Javid has said there are “no current plans” to impose fresh sanctions on Russia over the latest nerve agent poisonings in Wiltshire.
He repeated the government’s assessment that Russia was the source of the poison but said he would not “jump to conclusions”‘
Er… so it was Russia – but without jumping to conclusions. Do these people ever listen to themselves when speaking? (rhetorical question). Are we to infer from such clap-trap that the Salisbury perpetrator, finding himself with some ‘left-overs’ after first targeting a played out double-agent, decides to administer a dramatic remedy to a random stranger with a habit? Or maybe he/she drove to Amesbury before disposing of his/her atomizer, presumably in order to safeguard the good people of Salisbury.
There probably will be now, Doodlebug. Dawn Sturgess has died, and Teresa May is appalled.
Like a fine wine this stuff must get more potent with age.
“everyone’s health is normal and there are no irreversible things” – Yulia Skripal said.
What were the lethal concentrations in Dawn’s blood compared to those in Yulia’s and Sergei’s – both of whom were unharmed : ‘health is normal…,no irreversible things ‘.
Let’s guess, know one in the MSM knows, or cares?
I get the feeling this Novichok drama is going to be greatly expanded, with perhaps hundreds maybe even thousands of people supposed afflicted. Mass fear and panic is being created to serve as a cover for some great calamity just around the corner; perhaps the final collapse of the financial system.
It is bizarre how the medical status of these two recent victims are of an entirely different severity and seriousness.
I’d expect some item to be found incriminating Russia categorically- as the media seem to be being directed towards that development. Although, why a person conducting such a complex, dangerous hit would dispose of an incriminating item so ineptly and sloppily is another bizarre element.
To dispose of what would necessarily have to be a binary formulation (Novichok is simply to dangerous to be deployed in its active state) by leaving both components in the same location would be negligent beyond belief. All the assassin would have to do is dispose of the components in some soil in separate locations (a few miles apart for good measure) and nobody would ever find a trace of anything.
Russian scientist who worked on it said they could not make it binary. Obviously the danger would depend on concentration and presence of protective gear.
No if anything it’s the collapse of the Fake Russian Collusion Trump story. The CIA, FBI, DOJ, the Australian and England’s spy agency’s were all involved in the dossier story trying to frame Trump’s campaign. They were trying to overthrow a duly elected president and it is all coming out. Many people will be indicted including Christopher Steele. Maybe this is all a diversion away from that. Knowing that Skripal was involved in the dossier makes it all more believable.
RT News reports that Dawn Sturgess has died in hospital: https://www.rt.com/uk/432342-woman-novichok-amesbury-police/
That’s sad, whatever the actual cause of death. But this has already resulted in a fresh round of sensational/hysterical “breaking news”– which is why I’m fond of saying that the idiomatic expression “breaking news” is a fraternal twin of the other idiom, “breaking wind”.
The “novichok”, or “nerve agent”, creep is really starting to piss me off. By “creep”, I’m referring to the way in which the original Big Lie alleging that the Skripals were felled by a “military-grade nerve agent”, quickly “pinpointed” to be “Novichok”, has become embedded in even skeptical analysis and discussion.
Yes, yes, the UK’s political and scientific/technical authorities– which includes third-party “authorities” either coerced by or colluding with the UK false-flag operation– have repeatedly insinuated that “Novichok” is afoot.
I hope I’m wrong, but I predict that Sturgess’s death will somehow reinforce the implanted presumption that a “nerve agent”, the stuff of spies, spooks, and secret agents, must indeed be involved.
I also predict a boom in speculation about the many unsavory habits of “drug addicts” and the “homeless” that might’ve put the deceased and the stricken survivor into contact with this fatal “nerve agent”.
Perhaps there is another “nerve agent” at work, one that robs rational people of the inhibition against inventing, and arguing, “facts” not in evidence.
Are MI5 allowed to murder people in the UK?
Sad to hear that Dawn Sturgess has died.
I don’t think the Tory government believe homeless addicts are people.. 🙁
And would the supposed expensive looking phial or metal flask be thought to have been hidden in the bushes of Queen’s Elizabeth Gardens? Gardens just 5 minutes from the bench where both Skripals collapsed at exactly the same time despite very different sex, age, weight, health, and metabolism, and when the allegation is that they wre contaminated by Novichok smeared on their door handle which they had both touched some 4 hours before. An absolutely physically and chemically impossible theory since for two very different people to have collapsed under the effects of drug, poison, or agent, at exactly the same time both would have had to have received a large dose of the toxin immediately prior to collapsing. And therein lies the rub, Queen Elizabeth Gardens is near enough for a contaminator to have thrown or hidden the left overs but that could not explain how toxin was found in Zizzi’s and other places unless the Skripals themselves had it all the time. Will we ever know!? Will we ever know the truth.
However, that would either mean the contaminator followed them around all or part of the day and chose the bench to do the deed, or was accompanying them from some point in time, or the Skripals had an appointment to meet them nearby which would also explain Sergei’s impatience in Zizzi’s at the service delay where it appears he was in a great hurry to leave.
Many have already noticed the striking resemblance, (figure, age, hair, and style), that Sturgess and Rowley have with the couple caught on CCTV (the woman had a red handbag) who were walking along a passage leading to the bench where the Skripals collapsed just 20 minutes before they were first seen behaving strangely. And in both cases the first impression was Fentanyl poisoning.
Too many
After considering Lavrov’s BZ claim in full, I’m inclined to believe it and think that two different substances were used. The second poisoning was genuine Novichok and the couple was not connected to Skripals at all. The pair in CCTV look significantly older to me and the woman’s hair is lighter.
From the latest BBC news ‘story’:
“A spokesman said the investigators are “not in a position to say whether the nerve agent was from the same batch that the Skirpals were exposed to”.”
But our Home Secretary has already confirmed that it HAS been identified as being from the same batch.
These people couldn’t lie straight in bed!
I think that it was previously just identified to be “Novichok”, which is produced by combining two chemicals. Why a more sophisticated analysis wasn’t possible that would give the same/different infra-red trace (or if analysts still use infra-red spectroscopy), I do not know.I do not know. But any “newly made” chemical, if at all unstable, will degrade exponentially with time.
::Are MI5 allowed to murder people in the UK?
Yes, under a new law, the Guardian reported they can commit any crime without consequences if acting in the natl interest. But that is a minimal constraint because according to their mission statement, that is all that they do. This would be no different than in any other country, the Vatican included.
What I think happened here is the Skripals were insufficiently dosed, with the UK itself committing the only murders (Sergei’s pet hamsters, Yulia’s cat). The subsequent ridicule muted the meme, a ruthless Russian State which casually kills the daughter and a policeman along with the target, fishermen taking dolphin and sea turtles as bycatch.
So, after severe internal criticism of the botched hit, on the second opportunity to offset World Cup goodwill, the designated perps upped the ante on the dosage to assure a death. I’m thinking now this was no careless disposal of post-Skripal material but rather a fresh plant. It was hidden in the bushes in plain sight, not hidden to the extent it wouldn’t be found by park addicts (rather than children at the QEG playground, though that was a risk the perps were willing to take).
It seems impossible to arrange a dose that would be fatal yet slow enough that it be recognized as OP poisoning in a medically compromised population experiencing frequent deaths at young ages from over-doses and adulterated batches.
Indeed, had Rowley not succumbed four hours later at the same address, Sturgess would have gone to her grave without cause of death determined. This does not fit an dealer-adulterated batch because dozens of addicts would have gone down over the next days.
Still, how would the perp arrange a dose so low they didn’t die on the spot, yet high enough to die days later and with a delay long enough for Rowley and then Hobson to call in ambulance rounds. Had they both died at about the same time in his flat, with no one to report, a week could go by without anyone noticing.
Without OP symptoms then, there would scarcely be a referral to PD. Hence the percutaneous route, that has a much longer delays to onset and a slower course. Still, as noted above, the hospital would have to be tipped to the outcome of a referral as common garden chemicals and class A drugs are also OP poisons with the same mechanism and symptoms [listed up-forum.]
Well, Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowlie were both in poor physical shape when they were infected and there is some suggestion that Dawn fell and cracked her head on the bath etc/had a stroke or heartache at the same time. Curious that the authorities now say they don’t actually know if it is the same batch as the Skripals or not, how difficult it must be to be a politician or scientist and believe 5 impossible things before breakfast.
The Met won’t like this latest development of course, it will mean more unwanted questions to fend off.
My friend, with only a passing interest, still thinks the latest victims had some passing connection to the Skripals (ev couriering a package to them or finding something relevant in their scavenging hunts) which meant they had to be taken out as well.) It’s a thought.
What about the time taken to full ill? Dawn was found ill around 10am in the bathroom I believe, while Charlie became ill around 6pm during a shower. While at the same time the Skripals fell ill at precisely the same time.
It would seem the exposure that Dawn and Charlie received was at Charlie’s house? The bathroom?
This is real Miss Marple stuff!
“Still, how would the perp arrange a dose so low they didn’t die on the spot, yet high enough to die days later and with a delay long enough for Rowley and then Hobson to call in ambulance rounds. Had they both died at about the same time in his flat, with no one to report, a week could go by without anyone noticing. ”
Dawn’s bath and Charlie’s shower. Dawn succumbed in the bath, and Charlie after the shower. Prior to their bath and shower, Dawn was described as having a headache which isn’t uncommon especially for someone who abuses drink/drugs, and Charlie was described as sweating, which again isn’t uncommon for a heroin user, coupled with worry over what had happened to Dawn. We are led to assume that they had already been dosed and been affected but there is no evidence of this. Bath and shower was when there was no doubt that something was gravely wrong with them. Sam described Charlie’s eyes as all red immediately after the shower, suggesting contact with the nerve agent through the eyes as well as presumably the rest of the body.
Also recall the reports of a faulty shower head at the Skripal home. The wife of his best friend who’d driven them from the airport said she went in to have a look at it. No, I don’t think they got dosed there, I think they got sprayed with something upon exiting the pub, or had their drinks spiked at the pub. The same stuff that laid Det. Sergeant Nick Bailey out for a few days, BZ perhaps. The Novichok would come later, or simply be planted in samples taken from the Skripals. But there is a strong possibility this ended up happening because the original contamination through shower method, failed for some reason. Perhaps with a faulty shower head, they didn’t bother having a shower, or the nerve agent didn’t come through as it was supposed to. I had noted the shower head issue back in March but didn’t want to place too much emphasis on it. But now we have a bath and shower incident elsewhere to add to it, and consider.
Regarding the object Sturgess and Rowlie were meant to have picked up, there would be no absolute guarantee that they would open its presumable container to touch it, or when they would do so, so they would have a back-up plan. I think the water might well have to do with it. Then again it could just be coincidence. Neighbours described firemen connecting a hose to the water mains of Rowlie’s house, which was explained as part of decontamination procedures. Begs the question – is that type of decontamination carried out whenever emergency services respond to a drug overdose?
A word about Sam Hobson – something about him reminds me of Jason Patric’s character in the film “Rush”, where a cop goes undercover and actually takes drugs to blend in and convince the dealers. There’s a certain something behind Hobson’s druggie character. Something military. The eyes, the set of the jaw. Something. Is it just me?
Bathroom is the place to take drugs if you don’t want to be seen. Contaminared drugs would explain both the difference in onset times (onset was, in fact, instant) and police’s inability to find the source (it was consumed completely).
That is true, Igor. However, what are the odds of Charlie taking the same drug hours later, after witnessing what happened to Dawn?
Dawn Sturgess is dead, says the Guardian a few hours ago. She “handled” an object that transferred to her the dangerous Novichok poison. Except the Guardian says later that investigating authorities do not yet know how she came in contact with the poison, a seeming contradiction.
How do we know it was Novichock? Because the UK’s senior counter-terrorism officer said so. Have we had direct confirmation from Porton Down? Not that I’ve seen. We’re no further along than before, except now it’s a murder inquiry.
Presumably the pathologist doing the autopsy could have an “interesting” time determining the possibility and extent of any influence that novichok “alledgedly” had on the death…..but trying to find Russia guilty of a murder case…getting OPCW to confirm it was Russia….without the actual evidence of how both victims contacted the chemical…ie the syringe or phial or whatever hat everyone believes but is not there..so far…is going to be extremely difficult.
The autopsy will be carried out by a government- appointed pathologist. Perhaps the same one that carried out the autopsy on Dr David Kelly.
There is now surely only one remaining question which needs answering:
Was Dawn Sturgess the woman in the Salisbury CCTV carrying a red bag?”
This will be the key which unravels the entire mystery (and brings down whatever remains of the UK Government)
I am assuming that now that Dawn Sturgess has died, there will need to be a murder investigation. This is likely to be very different from what has taken place thus far, which could be characterised as ‘incident management’. Perhaps a local(?) police detective will investigate and follow the evidence where it leads.
John Humphries was discussing this admitting that there is no proof of Russian involvement that will stand scrutiny in a murder enquiry. For a start the origin of the poison will be needed beyond doubt. I can see an enquiry coming up instead.
Surely an inquest could only come to a verdict of death by misadventure…due to dumpster diving and known habit of picking up discarded items….could easily have caught hepatitis…sepsis …other trans mitable diseases etc etc
Reply ↓
Jo
July 9, 2018 at 09:51
“Surely an inquest could only come to a verdict of death by misadventure”
It is the public coroner’s court that usually determines such cases. However, in contentious cases (Litvinenko, David Kelly) the Government held a closed inquiry instead where much evidence was kept secret. Litvinenko’s wife Marina campaigned for a public inquiry but this was opposed by Theresa May.
Hiya Copydude
The way the ensuing ‘investigation’ plays out should signal the truth (or not) of any overseas state involvement. The hope that yet another closed inquiry does not ensue is probably a forlorn one. We shall see.
In the meantime, according to SKY News, “The couple, who were known drug users, spent Friday afternoon and evening in Salisbury and visited a number of shops.”
All of which shops are now behind police cordons, off limits to the general public for the foreseeable future, while the hazmat brigade are busy drenching the interiors and the pavements outside with water. Or am I imagining things?
What do we actually know about the backgrounds of Dawn and Charlie and what they have been doing for the last few months? Where does Sam Hobson fit in.? Is he a recovering alcoholic/druggie/unemployed? Is he an undercover member of the local Drug Squad? Was he protecting Charlie for some reason?
Ahah…
Anything reminiscent about these two and the two women implicated in the killing of Kim Jong-nam by VX nerve agent at KL Airport?
Heard a anecdote about David Davis this morning on LBC. The caller was on a train from Hull to London and had upgraded to 1st Class for a tenner. At the next stop, Davis entered the carriage and sat down. He made no eye contact nor exchanged any words. He continued to stare up at the roof of the carriage throughout. He had a coat, an iPad and an IPhone. He left them behind on each of the 10 or 12 occasions he left the carriage to go to the toilet. Security risk? Some medical problem with his waterworks or elsewhere?
______
Always said he wasn’t clever, just calm. Was he worth £140k pa? Has spent just four hours with Barnier apparently which I find hard to believe. At least he isn’t a member of the CFoI.
MP for Haltemprice and Howden since 1987 https://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=10162
In TA’s SAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_Rifles when young.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)
This is Raab’s Wikipedia entry. He was once Davis’s chief of staff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Raab