We are continually presented with experts by the mainstream media who will validate whatever miraculous property of “novichok” is needed to fit in with the government’s latest wild anti-Russian story. Tonight Newsnight wheeled out a chemical weapons expert to tell us that “novichok” is “extremely persistent” and therefore that used to attack the Skripals could still be lurking potent on a bush in a park.
Yet only three months ago we had this example of scores from the MSM giving the same message which was the government line at that time:
“Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: ‘These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'”
In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed. But now the properties of the agent have to fit a new narrative, so they transmute again.
It keeps happening. Do you remember when Novichok was the most deadly of substances, many times more powerful than VX or Sarin, and causing death in seconds? But then, when that needed to be altered to fit the government’s Skripal story, they found scientists to explain that actually no, it was pretty slow acting, absorbed gradually through the skin, and not all that deadly.
Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.
According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.
If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.
I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.
Both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess still have active facebook pages and one of Charlie’s handful of “Likes” is a mortgage broker, which is consistent with his brand new house. They don’t give mortgages to unemployed heroin addicts, and not many of those live in smart new “executive housing” estates. Both Charlie and Dawn appear from their facebook pages to be very well socialised, with Dawn having many friends in the teaching profession. Even if she has been homeless for a period as reported, she is plainly very much part of the community.
Naturally, there is no mention in all the reports today of MI6’s Pablo Miller, who remains the subject of a D notice. I wonder if he knows Rowley and Sturgess, living in the same community? It should be recalled that Salisbury may be a city, but its population is only 45,000.
The most important thing is of course that Charlie and Dawn recover. But tonight, even at this early stage, as with the entire Skripal saga, the message the security services are seeking to give out does not add up. Mark Urban’s piece for Newsnight tonight was simply disgusting; it did not even pretend to be more than a propaganda piece on behalf of the security services, who had told Urban (as he said) that Yulia Skripal’s phone “could have been” tapped by the Russians and they “might even” have listened to her conversations through the microphone in her telephone. That was the “new evidence” that the Russians were behind everything.
As a former British Ambassador I can tell you with certainty that indeed the Russians might have tapped Yulia, but GCHQ most definitely would have. It is, after all, their job, and billions of our taxes go into it. If tapping of phones is seriously presented as evidence of intent to murder, the British government must be very murderous indeed.
Hi friends — coming in late once again, and not being in the UK make me not being quite up-to-date.
But.
I was wondering — might the current thingy in Amesbury not possibly be interpreted as a lead-up to a backtrack and retreat in the Skripal story??
Some hermeneutics might be in order.
Have any fingers been pointed, by the Government, to the Russian Government/State/Putin as the suspects here?
Have any diplomats been called in or expelled?
Has the OPCW been notified?
Mind you, mention of ‘Russians’ is not the same as mentioning the Russian State or the Kremlin.
It could refer to Russians in the UK, and even the criminal elements among those.
I am open to hear examples that would definitively preclude an interpretation of the current story as the lead-up to a grand backtracking and retreat in the Skripal case, and maybe even a normalization of UK-Russian ties.
That is, an implicit acknowledgment of the UK that its tactics failed, that Trump will bypass the UK in anything he does, that even before Trump, important national sporting events could pacify the public, make them rally around the flag, etc., etc.
The thing we would expect in that case is a very quick unwinding and unraveling of the whole story, Skripal and Amesbury.
For instance some MI5 analysis pointing to ‘Russian oligarchs’ or the Russian mob, and that would be that.
Let us hope so.
I’m half expecting Bill Oddie to come out of a down and announce that novichok is a naturally occurring element found in upland pasture and is an essential part of the local downland butterfly operation. This would explain why it has been found in local samples . HMG now has to decide whether butterflies or people are more important. It’s so bollocks, but it does help to spin out time before parliament goes on holiday. Yawn.
This is really funny…Brits are really laughing at this latest Russian thing …love the Bill Oddie. Slant !
Attacks on Russian forces at Hmeymim airbase in Syria are being stepped up. Several drone attacks have happened in the last week. They’re probably linked with the Amesbury psyops.
The goal is to ruin Russia’s excellent handling of the World Cup and the upcoming Trump/Putin summit. McVey and Brexit chaos possibly also in the mix. There’s nothing like a distraction.
@ mike July 5, 2018 at 22:02
The latest attacks were with drones made from wood and plastic, and were invisible to radar. As a high Russian officer noted, this technology could be used with devastating effect in Europe. He also raised suspicion that the making and pre-programmed targetting (eliminating the electronic interference of the flight) was too sophisticated for the terrorists to make themselves, and ‘other countries’ assistance was likely.
They were detected with some kind of photo-scanner.
I can’t find the link now.
Trump is serious about pulling out of Syria.
He must be stopped !
Dawn Sturgess seems to have been Charlie Rowley’s regular girlfriend, from accounts given by her fellow lodgers in the homeless hostel. She stayed overnight Friday at his house, according to their friend ,( and fellow addict?) They seem to have regarded her symptoms as a “bad trip” until Charlie collapsed too. The friend said the authorities keep phoning him to check if he is Ok.
At least one report said the greatest concentration of nerve gas was on their hands, from handling something. A cigarette stub maybe, planted there even, but I do not buy. random flask left in the bushes.
Have we discounted it is them on the Skripal cctv clip? I have not discounted my friend’s theory that they were bribed in some way to ensnare the Skripals but recently got greedy and taken out as a result. Or maybe they were directly involved originally (under instruction)and hid the stuff themselves and recently retrieved it, reason unknown at present.
Can someone clarify for me where Queen Elizabeth Park is in relation to the Skripals’
“park bench”?
Where did u read all that info about cct ??????
QE Gardens are about 200m south of “Skripal” bench, just down the river. Hugely popular, and well maintained. If they picked it up there, I can only believe it was very recently planted.
The CCTV of the couple taken in Salisbury is such poor quality, I strongly suspect it has been deliberately downgraded.
Why would the police/’Security Services’ do that?
If the pics are real, then if I had bought those CCTV cameras I would demand my money back.
Bit like the Borough Market footage of the London Bridge ‘attack’.
A few years ago in my local town (pop about half that of Salisbury) someone went round the whole town flatting people’s car tyres, Hundreds from each corner of town were affected. A busy night. All the police could produce was one blurry shot from CCTV. Most of cameras weren’t on, or were of extreme pensionable age.
Of course you may well be right, but it doesn’t surprise me.
Just to add, by all accounts Dawn Sturgess was an alcoholic but not a heroin addict. So it seems unlikely she injected anything she found. Charlie Rowley who was a heroin addict, might have done so. But she collapsed several hours before him, suggesting she got infected first, so unlikely to have been something injected. Handled more likely. Hence presumably the cigarette butt theory.
But who smoked the cigarette? Sergei, Yulia or Bailey after exposure? Then this butt survived the weather for four months and the deep clean?
Makes zero sense. Unless she had a big bag of baccy collected over time and rolled a joint with it Friday night and hit the motherlode.
The papers tomorrow are reporting tomorrow that the ‘contaminated object’ was a cigarette butt….
Which of course beggs the questions of:
what happened the the person who originally smoked the cigarette?
[All ready asked] How could of the ‘novachok’ survived in the general environment including rain for four months?
Or alternatively they believe it was a syringe….
Both of which are laughable considering what we have been told by the official clean up officials at there press conference early today.
Did Skripal smoke, did his daughter smoke, did Rowley smoke ? Sturgess was in the habit of picking up cigarette butts if she’d found a part used packet of weaponized cigarettes in a trash can she may have smoked several and offered Rowley one, could explain why she’s more affected than him.
Looks like the door handle theory is up in smoke. Now we see the dastardly Russians used discarded cigarettes laced with military grade nerve agent. Sergei and Yulia must have been in the habit of smoking cigs off the floor, typically Russian I hear.
There are many easily thought up scenarios to offer someone a cigarette so long as you have a “clean” one for yourself, one doesn’t have to be a skilled magician.
@ MightyDrunken July 5, 2018 at 23:29
My informant tells me the SS has received a leaked Cyrillic booklet on ‘How to contaminate cigarette butts with Novichok’, but won’t release the info to the public until the World Cup is finished, as they don’t want to spoil the spectacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYtccrf_T_s
My informant is better than your informant, because the SS has long been taken out of the game.
@ bj July 6, 2018 at 01:22
That’s SS as in ‘Security Services’.
A cigarette butt !!……..??……………F.O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you take me for stupid ???
So a cigarette butt spiced with Novichock, a nerve agent with an LD of 0,5 microgrammes, is left there by chance, they are exposed, but , utterly fail to die with in a minute or two after exposure, but proceeds to explore Salisbury or Amenhotep or what ever that Foking chemical dump is named, by night enjoying them selves, frolicking in their addicted Novichock/heroin/alcohol induced stupor….
This is what I am supposed to believe ??????……..
Focking cow diease have hit you all, you have all largely gone completely bonkers!!! this is so stupid that I am speechless and my brain is evaporating!!! The Walking Dead makes more sense!! They are at least as clever too!
I wonder what the Kremlin Cabinet will say? If they are able to speak for laughter!!! Even rejecting this nonsense makes you look foolish!!
The general MO for people who use “street” tobacco is to break open what they find and save it in a tobacco tin possibly supplemented with shop bought tobacco. That being so she may have been carrying it about for weeks and the dose she and Rowley got from it purely random.
Really? So, there was a fatal dose of nerve agent in the remaining tobacco of the fag butt. What happened to the person who smoked the fag? Let’s say that the fag butt was picked up a month ago, what sort of state do you think a three month old fag butt is in.
In my experience people who do this only bother with butts that are a decent length and have not been kicked about on the pavement for months. The best places are outside offices, bus stops etc., and tend to be in places that are regularly swept.
The fag butt theory is simply beyond ridiculous. Someone is clearly taking the piss.
What is the obsession with cigarette *buts* ?
If anyone, Russian, or CIA or MI6 wanted to poison Skripal by offering him a doped cigarette every cigarette in the packet would have to be doped because there is no way of telling which one he would take. After the event the would be assassin is left with a packet of the remaining unused poison cigarettes which he/she crumples up and throws in a rubbish bin. Sturgess whilst bin diving finds the damaged cigarettes and uses the tobacco.
Holy shit it’s like trying to repair a watch whilst wearing boxing gloves.
And if you want me to draw you a picture.
Sturgess is no different to you or I in the respect that she wouldn’t use “street” tobacco as first preference. She’s obviously a hand roller and will use shop bought tobacco when finances permit, she will also have a stash of street tobacco for when she’s short of cash. That would explain the time difference between the Skripal event and this one.
An interesting theory, but then both Sergey and Julia would need to have smoked poisoned cigarettes. Do you have any evidence that she was a smoker?
None whatsoever, passive smoke maybe, she was near to him and did recover first.
I followed the ins and outs of the Skripal story on Craig’s blog avidly for weeks, but I just can’t be bothered with the sequel, it is just too silly for words. I think the expression is “jumping the shark”. Mark Urban was so preposterous on Newsnight I kept expecting Evan Davis to start laughing. I’m somewhat reassured by Craig’s finding that two-thirds of people commenting online don’t believe a word of it.
In the meantime, has anyone read this? https://changemaker.media/feature/121-bombs-a-day-world-war-news-roundup-1-analysis-of-battlefield-operations-1/ I don’t know the provenance, but I found what he says is astonishing. The quantity of bombs and shells the United States is dumping on Syria is unbelievable – and not a word about it from the BBC.
Agree. I don’t think anyone believes the Government nonsense anymore. And in any event, it is totally boring now.
I watched Sky News this evening and a chap called Tim Trevan Ex UN weapons inspector admitted that the Czechs, Ian, UK and US all had produced Novichok in small amounts for research purposes, thereby contradicting the governments main argument that Russia is to blame. I know it sounds crazy but i was half expecting the interviewer to point out this little contradiction. Alas no, he quickly changed the subject. At least these events are now acting as an open window to show the true colours of the people that are supposed to be telling his the truth. I do hope the general public is taking all of this in….for the next time……probably in South West Syria.
I have the video on my phone if anyone is interested.
I guess “knowledge” can be divided into two main type. Common knowledge, which is what you hear without even trying to find out and “expert” knowledge where you find by accident or design a decent source, Mostly common knowledge is the same as the expert knowledge, in many cases it is not.
It doesn’t matter if those who search for the answers are unconvinced by this story, far more people will be getting on with their lives and be fed the common sense knowledge that Russia definitely did it. I don’t like to jump to conclusions so I feel Russia can not be excluded, but the evidence so far makes me very suspicious.
Once popular opinion becomes, “Russia did it”, it makes it much harder for others to change course. For example, many think Corbyn isn’t the real deal because he often falls in line with the current narrative, the truth is he has little choice.
Did J.B.C. ‘have a choice’ in the 90’s?
“Jeremy’s election agent Derek Sawyer was a business partner of paedophile Derek Slade who was imprisoned for sex offences against boys (see post ‘Another Episode Of Friends’). The Islington whistleblower Dr Liz Davies maintains that she told Jeremy of the abuse of children in care in the Borough, but Jeremy did not act on her concerns.”
http://www.drsallybaker.com/uncategorized/the-turn-of-the-screw/
*That’s Iran, not Ian. :@)
Could have been Ian though. Wouldn’t put it past him 😉
That Ian, he’s a right bastard
Info Call Out Please – Chemical Techies
I read on here something that someone was saying that the Russian “Inventor” of Novichok had stated that they were not able to synthesize a stable mono variant, only binary derivatives.
Is this true?
Of course even if the Russians didn’t achieve it, it doesn’t mean someone else did.
What was the derivative found in Salisbury that the OPCW identified? ( If still info still not publicly available just some generic info on the group)
When mixed how long is it useful? 4 months?
Yes that is true. Nobody is really interested in having it in mono variant; the stuff is ridiculously dangerous have a look at VX which is really bad news, really bad, Novichock is 10 times as lethal. (nobody has died yet though?)
One of the Russian “Novichok” scientists, Vladimir Uglev said the opposite:
” No one ever had any binary weapons. I think that several of my colleagues, just like I did, tried to work on this idea, but I don’t know a single binary weapon, not for VX, not for other types of chemical weapons. At least for the period up until 1994.”
“at the very end (…) it became clear that a binary agent could not be developed from them[“Novichok” substances].”
https://thebell.io/en/the-scientist-who-developed-novichok-doses-ranged-from-20-grams-to-several-kilos/
Charlie would have his own needle, not gone out hoping to find a discarded syringe. It is dangerous enough to share a needle (hepatitis B&C, AIDS etc) with friends but to use one off the ground that had a bit of clear liquid in it? Take a squirt perhaps but not inject. Dawn was not an intravenous drug user but an bottomed-out alcoholic estranged from her family, never been employed as of age 44.
I cannot envision a scenario whereby a cigarette butt could be contaminated by novichok.
That visit to the pharmacist was possibly to pick up Charlie’s methadone. “Drinking alcohol, taking prescription or nonprescription medications that contain alcohol, or using street drugs during your treatment with methadone increases the risk that you will experience serious, life-threatening side effects…. methadone tablets or oral solution properly according to instructions. Taking certain other medications during your treatment with methadone may increase the risk that you will experience serious, life-threatening side effects such as breathing problems, sedation, or coma. Methadone may cause a prolonged QT interval (a rare heart problem that may cause irregular heartbeat, fainting, or sudden death). https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682134.html
According Hobson, prior to onset, Charlie “wasn’t high or anything. He was stone cold sober. He felt ill and went for a shower. Then his eyes went bloodshot and like two pin pricks. He began garbling incoherently and I could tell he was hallucinating. He was making weird noises and acting like a zombie. He was dribbling and rocking backwards and forwards. It was like nothing I’d ever seen. I called the ambulance and they took him away.”
I would think left-over novichok kit from the Skripal attack. It is very similar to a shooting, ditch the gun asap, don’t get caught with it. That residue would be very difficult to distinguish from a different aliquot from the same batch (ie the disgruntled Porton Down employee hypothesis). Hardly anyone would have access to distinct rounds of production. The “investigation” never did acquire macroscopic samples of the original agent unless you count what PD put on the door handle for the benefit of OPCW. They have never released a specific chemical structure for the Skripal toxin (“A-234” is highly ambiguous) and as explained earlier, there are many reasons from ACHE aging reactions to doubt they have the whole picture.
Right. “A senior Government source told the Press Association it was believed there was cross-contamination of the same batch of nerve agent involved in the Skripal attack, as opposed to a secondary attack. They [the authorities] have never been able to ascertain the item used to deposit the Novichok and it’s possible the pair have come into contact with that item”.
The official narrative is the Novichok was applied to the front door handle, at the home.
Did the would be assassin wander around for a while and chuck his assassins apparel under a bush in the park / town centre bin / somewhere else over a mile away from the home?
Bad spycraft, Putin is going to be angry!
Here in the Lizzie Garden hip flask/syringe scenario, there was exposure at the same time to low and likely different doses of agent to two people with different physiologies and — unsurprisingly — quite different times of onset, 5 hrs 15 minutes apart perhaps 18 hrs after exposure. That contrasts with the Skripal situation of likely higher but different doses of agent to two people with quite different physiologies yet simultaneous onset.
As the toxicologists and others here have said many times, that proves the Skripals could not possibly been afflicted back at Sergei’s house. It had to have been in Market Walk or directly at the bench.
I rather like the sporting hip flask notion. It could have agent component dissolved in solvent, persistence, sticky, or skin penetrating reagent. That would be quite safe to carry about with a nalgene membrane stretched over it under a leak-proof screw-on cap. At the last minute, the syringe adds the other portion needed for the final chemical reaction (see Prof Collum’s method) and at the same time allows for syringe withdrawal of a measured dose.
In this drug-addled community, nothing would draw less comment than a roughly dressed individual sitting on a QEG bench with an open flask of alcohol fiddling with a syringe. Once the syringe is loaded for the spray attack, the flask is tossed into the bushes with the syringe soon to follow.
So it would not be possible to contaminate a cigarette with novichok, not even a complete, apparently unused one?
So far, in all of the accounts I’ve read about the Skripals and this case, I’ve not seen a comprehensive description of the effects a nerve agent has on the human body. Current nerve agents may be different but my recollection, from the NBC course I attended in the late 60s during my military service I recall that some of the effects are loss of bowel control (i.e. there’s a lot of shit emitted), loss of bladder control (things get very wet), vomitting (more less processed shit), difficulty in breathing, restricted vision (that’s the pupils locking down), loss of control of limbs: basically you lose control of your body because all the muscles tighten up. Yet, we see constriction of pupils pushed a lot, but there are lots of other chemical contaminants which cause the same effect. So far, the description of Charlie’s condition doesn’t fit what I’ve been taught about the effects. We were supplied with self injecting ampoules of atropine and given instructions to inject these immediately upon suffering onset of effects, with the warning hesitation may render one incapable of carrying out the necessary actions. We were also taught that we may need to treat a colleague similarly if they were affected.
Novichok maybe, but it’s the strangest nerve agent I’ve ever heard of.
And from a military standpoint, what military would use an persistent agent that contaminates the ground one is trying to occupy?
Here we go Cassandra, a scientific view of nerve agents. You are quite correct about loss of bowel control being a major symptom.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent
Same course same time period. Instructor going through the list of symptoms came to “involuntary evacuation” which he helpfully translated as “That means you shit and piss yourself”, probably the laughter which made it memorable.
Much as we all appreciate the theories, what part of ‘it’s all bullshit’ is difficult to understand?
Exactly. As soon as you start the ‘plausible explanations’ you’re onboard and going along, even if you think you aren’t
I agree with J and Simon. But, as the first round of this farce demonstrated, it’s difficult to resist being sucked into coming up with various “shrewd” guesses about the truth of the matter.
After the Skripal performance had been discussed for several weeks, I posted a criticism of this trend on another site; in part, I pointed out that even skeptics now freely used terms like “the Novichok”, “the door handles”, etc.– even though these skeptics seemed to comprehend that all of the information about these particulars came from various dodgy and compromised sources.
Like Cassandra, I was ignored. It was simply too “fun” or exciting to develop hypotheticals based on the abundance of unsubstantiated and conflicting “knowns”.
Like the original story, not one shred of objective, far less empirical evidence has been put forward by HMG to support their version of either incident. Essentially this most corrupt and incompetent of Conservative Governments is saying take us at our word becaus we’re the British Government.
A more compelling reason for not accepting their version of events: I simply couldn’t imagine.
I listened to BBC Radio 4 this morning, and I am listening to it now at midnight. I cannot believe they can have changed their story 180 degrees and are able to keep a straight face. They seriously must think we are total idiots
This morning their experts were certain that it could not be effective via the skin, and had to be ingested. 4 hours and 90 degrees later, and it could be effective via the skin “in sufficiently high doses. The substance could persist outdoors for weeks or months. Now “further tests” at Porton Down have concluded that it must have ocvurred indoors, because outdoors the substance rapidly degrades
They can’t even get their story straight, and yet the BBC is now directly linking this latest affair to the success of the World Cup – “The eyes of the World are on Russia…”
THIS IS A PUT-UP JOB
Tom Smythe says it would not be possible to contaminate a cigarette with novichok agents which puts paid to the cigarette stub theory. That’s a shame. I was working up a nice little scenario where at least one of them was somehow paid to set up the Skripals but had become a nuisance/loose cannon recently. So someone approaches Dawn and say asks for a light and then offers her a cigarette in return, maybe even says keep the packet which only contains a couple, and it all kicks off from there . Oh well back to the drawing board.
The other big difference in Amesbury is the D-Notice curtain has not come down (yet). No one has been disappeared (yet). Friends and witnesses are talking freely and repeatedly. We have an excellent account of symptoms and an accurate timeline. Relatives are visiting the hospital. (The two are in the Radner Ward intensive care unit of Salisbury hospital.)
“Mrs Sturgess’s cousin, 31-year-old Ross Hewitt, said Dawn was in an induced coma after suffering a seizure and a heart attack. ‘She has never had seizures before. It was out of the blue. Her partner, shortly after the call that she made to the medical services, also suffered a seizure and a heart attack which was a bit weird,’ he said. [ [The heart attack bit needs confirmation, could just be slowed beat, eratic rhythm, or diaphram /heart muscle dysfunction.]]
‘Charlie was looking stronger but it was Dawn who is really in the danger zone. We fear she’s going to die. She’s in a worse state than Charlie’, adding she is unconscious and ‘on the brink of death’. [[Yulia and DS Nick Bailey are the only two of the five who went in halfway healthy.]]
“The couple’s close friend Sam Hobson, 29, said police took him to every place the couple visited – many with him in tow – to see if investigators missed anything or if the victims touched ‘something they shouldn’t have’.
One former resident of Dawn’s halfway house said: ‘If she’s been collecting fag ends up to build up a stash of tobacco, she could have smoked the poison. Lots of people collect half smoked cigarettes – if that’s what got the spy and he’s chucked it down somewhere – Dawn could have picked it up.'[[No evidence that Sergei smoked or that poison route was oral; person who wiped mouth foam with bare hand was not subsequently affected; butt would have been by the bench, not 300 m away in QEG, plus out in rain for four months.]]
The Skripal’s route (inhalation, oral, percutaneous) has never been established/disclosed. Yes, organophosphate onset varies quite a bit by route and dose. Stability in the environment will vary greatly with the precise chemistry of agent, auxiliary compounds, moisture, temperature and exposure to sunlight.
Right at the beginning it was said the bench area was a drugs zone. I suppose it’s conceivable Dawn picked up a dog end that had urine or vomit on it from the Skripals in the few hours after the incident, even though that very night that area was cleaned by noddy suits.
We need Sherlock to tell us the half-life of novichok in a dive-bombed baccy stash.
Ya Got to be Kidding people are Buying this shit Again.. Nevermind is correct, we should not be giving Type space..On the other hand the Evil MsM need constant Countering
JOML
July 5, 2018 at 21:30
” Still think this is the best WC song! ”
It’s up there with this effort for top Prize –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcE86JmIN3E
In the interest of balance I have to say that the report I read about the unfortunate couple state that they lived in flats which were owned by the local authority and housed people who had dependency issues with drugs and alcohol.
Although they obviously DID have a home that they lived in, this would STILL make them ‘technically’ homeless.
I have unfortunate personal experience of this. After leaving my wife and our mortgage-free home I was given what I colloquially known as a ‘scatter flat’ by the local authority’s homeless unit. I was allowed to remain there for a certain period, registered as homeless, until a housing association could accommodate me. But this is the type of thing which could explain why they are described as homeless despite having an actual address they live at.
What concerned me more about the report I read was that the lady in question had taken ill, quite seriously, and the ambulance was called. After the ambulance had left to take her to the local hospital (at this point with no firm idea of what was wrong) the gentleman (all this according to their friend) left (along with said friend) to go to the chemist for his daily methadone script. He picked it up (ie took the methadone at the chemists [Boots]) and returned home. It was only at this point that he became ill himself. The friend was seemingly unaffected, as was everyone else who was at the property.
So, despite initial reports, this later quote has them in separate ambulances at what HAS to be with an hour gap.
NB I could understand why people would wonder at him going to get his methadone whilst his girlfriend is seriously ill. But such is addiction that this is normal for the lifestyle and those who are in it’s throes would always do exactly that.
If there is nothing untoward about this then it IS possible that they got this from other, illicit, drugs they may have been taking (if indeed they WERE taking illicit drugs – the fact he was on methadone doesn’t preclude wither of them from being on heroin OR something else) It COULD be the case that their dealer stashed the heroin somewhere outdoors that was contaminated, or became contaminated with the run off from the clean up operation. It’s common enough (or used to be when I knew about such things) to store heroin outdoors at a stash site to avoid prosecution.
However, as the gentleman was alleged to have only taken methadone (at the chemist) it’s unlikely he was contaminated in this way. Having taken his methadone he would’ve been more likely to have been thinking about taking some personal items to his girlfriend at the hospital. At this point he may have assumed that she had taken ill through a reaction to alcohol or drugs. The description of the reaction in the interview DID sound like that eg she had a seizure/seizures etc.
But, given the attention that was paid to the cleanup, and the fact that Novichok degrades in the open air (remember, you don’t even need rain to degrade it, moisture is enough and morning dew, over a period, would do that)
Nothing about the story adds up whatever.
The friend giving the interview I referenced doesn’t add up either. His sole function is to provide narrative – or maybe coincidences DO happen.
I am reminded of an interview in ‘The Sun’ after John Charles de Menezes was shot dead, by mistake, in London. In the interview a passenger on the tube was quoted as saying that he saw him (de Menezes) with a bomb (I’m paraphrasing) and he thought he would detonate it, before the police shot him and saved everyone. Now, as we know now, that couldn’t possibly have happened. And yet, ‘The Sun’ interviewed someone who said it DID. Or, more likely, they made it up at the request of the police. Same here, who knows, and I doubt we ever will…
I have followed a number of Met police high profile cases,in addition to JC de M, where as events have unfurled, it has become apparent the Met are constructing their own more convenient version of events, aided by some handy witness statements from witnesses who prove elusive to track down. However this is usually done to conceal some major foul up on their part and protect their own backs. Not the case here . I am not sure Wiltshire Police rise to this level of deception ,although willing to be corrected
But there is no police misdemeanour here to cover up and I think acting out a fake scenario for a third party, might be a step too far for Wiltshire Police who lack the Mets experience in this area. Mind you now that the Met and anti Terrorism officers f have been called in, anything can happen. I am expecting free circulation of information and access to friends and relatives to be shut down fairly rapidly. It is how the Met operates: to control the narrative you have to own it and that means ensuring you are the only source of information about it. Watch this space.
The friend’s “sole function is to provide narrative”,
Excellent observation.
Just watched NBC Nightly news with Kate Snow (no Lester Holt today), appalling journalism, everything linked to russian meddling with Skripals, basically “here we go again with the novichok”. Didn’t think they would cover it, but should’ve realised…it’s another anti-russian story.
back in the real world of Brexit ‘negotiations’:
‘Vincent Browne v The ECB’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAf7J4a_T1g
I am half way through ‘And the Weak Suffer What They Must? Europe’s Crisis and America’s Economic Future’ by Yanis Varoufakis, and got the link, which he recommended watching, from his book. It is a remarkable book, but pretty heavy going for me.
I recommend it to folk who want to stay in Europe – it will likely change their minds.
Yanis is friends with Jeremy Corbyn – perhaps he could make him the new Chancellor in the next Labour Government (or at least an ‘advisor’).
… And a ‘survivor’ of Really Existing Capitalism.
He did such a good job for Greece.
@ colin smith July 6, 2018 at 08:33
Read the book. He knew exactly what was wrong, tried his best, but his hands were tied.
He knew what was wrong with the system before TSHTF, but the Bundesbank forced the issue.
I call defamation.
Nevermind is right. We are being distracted discussing this and some of us making up more and more bizarre theories that are more fit for Mrs Marples than the real world.
Meanwhile two recent extremely important revelations involving collusion with torture and rendition, have received much less coverage and comments in the media at large and of course the Brexit debacle continues with no chance of success turning into arguments akin to the theological equivalent of establishing the number of angels on a pinhead.
Reality it seems is no longer a given, it is what we are told it is. Even when facts are exposed, as the clear Blair lies on Iraq no consequences follow.
I note comment that the recovery expectation for the Amesbury couple stands at 95%. Let us hope so.
The fate of the hostel-dwellers, tagged, evacuated and disappeared, is less clear.
@ quasi_verbatim July 6, 2018 at 05:51
Another report has the woman at death’s door. Doorknobs, car air conditioner, cigarette butts, syringe; highly deady/takes you out for a few days; works virtually instantly/takes 5 hours to hit; deadly on contact/must be ingested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b2w_nJLuvw
The Prime Minister has stated that the Cabinet has “a duty” to come to an agreement today.
Failing this, Churchillian measures will be brought to bear. It will be recalled that in the May, 1940 national crisis Winston Churchill ordered the internment of over a thousand persons, many of them MPs.
One assumes that warrants for the close arrest and indefinite detention of all members of the European Research Group and of turbulent Brexit members of Cabinet have already been signed and, like Elizabeth I’s warrant for the execution of Mary Queen of Scots, remain only to be activated.
The Tories (represented by Priti Patel) got a hard time on QT last night from the panel and the audience. Dimblebore seemed to be allowing and even encouraging it – the Cabinet disarray, the fact that time is running out on a Brexit deal. It was water off a duck’s back for Patel. She has acquired an air of (faux)serenity. McVey’s performance on Universal Credit/National Audit Office was discussed and it was agreed that she should have been sacked and that she must go. Blackford was on fire throughout. Some of the audience in King’s Lynn were very angry about the state of the country.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b8h0sc
Qs
Are we heading for a Brexit deal that works for the country or one that works for the Conservative Party?
Should the people have a final vote on the deal?
If England continue to progress at the World Cup, should the UK Government now send a representative?
After 70 years, the NHS is now a sacred cow. Isn’t it time for a serious reform now?
Will the introduction of Universal Credit in King’s Lynn fuel more demand on our food bank?
Next week – Dartford
The Andrew Livesey who suggested a reform was needed for OUR NHS, is a doctor. Shouldn’t he have mentioned that he had an interest.
ALIVE MEDICAL LTD
Nature of business (SIC)
86210 – General medical practice activities
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10483358/officers
Ha-ha, the Salisbury/Amesbury ‘Mystery’
Obviously more Panto than Pinter
Like a bottle of cheap pop with the screwcap left off, this one is quickly losing its fizz. They have even rolled old Frank Gardner out, dusted him off and given him a quick polish.
‘Amesbury Novichok was ‘unlikely to be out in the open’
30 minutes ago
Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley fell ill on Saturday in Amesbury, Wiltshire
The nerve agent that poisoned a couple near Salisbury was unlikely to have been left in the open before they touched it, a government scientist has told BBC News.
Novichok can be degraded by rainwater and sunlight over time – meaning it was probably discovered by the pair in a contained space, the source added.
They were exposed to it after handling a contaminated item, police said.
Charlie Rowley, 45, and Dawn Sturgess, 44, from Amesbury, remain ill.
Amesbury poisoning: What we know so far
Salisbury reacts to fresh case
Speaking to BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner!!, the source said the Novichok was so toxic it was able to pass through the skin and did not need to be ingested.
The source added that Mr Rowley and Ms Sturgess’s symptoms were the same as those shown by Russian ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia. They were both poisoned with Novichok in nearby Salisbury in March.
Conservative MP Tom Tugendhat said the latest incident was a result of of a “war crime” by Russia. The chairman of the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee said using a nerve agent in a civilian area was a “vile act of terror”.
But Russia – which denies involvement in either incident – said the UK government was trying to “muddy the waters” and “intimidate its own citizens”.’
/..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44733873
On Friday, 13th July!
Donald Trump’s visit to UK set to cost £30million and will see special forces troops in London and US aircraft carrier off the south coast
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/donald-trumps-visit-uk-set-12860481
>Dinner at Blenheim Palace
>May @ Chequers
>Queen @ Windsor
. One of the two giant Black Hawk helicopters will bring him from Stansted where AirForce1 lands to the US Ambassador’s House in Regent’s Park where he stays. Separately all the junk arrives -the limos, the protection squads.
”The Nimitz-Class USS Truman, is coming from the Mediterranean, heading for the south coast and is already in the Atlantic heading north towards France. She will help with communications and surveillance, keeping an eye out for threats to the region from terror groups or state threats ++from countries like Russia.++
The huge ship, along with an escort of destroyers will provide extra protection to Trump during his UK trip and the Nato summit in Brussels. It has a large force of US Marines on board – supported by helicopters and the Truman also has a state of the art surgical theatre should it be needed for Trump or his massive personal protection detail.’
Then he goes to Scotland to play golf at one of his ghastly golf venues. Trump Turnberry.
What nonsense.
Yes reminds of the stories of when the Sun King of France went of from Paris to visit Versailles, entourage about the same as goes with with the fuss and spectacle to keep the plebs in awe, although King Trump the 1 ‘s propaganda effort is much better, the spectacle is the same. (Does not seem that Glorious Trumpie relies on the NHS, maybee is not completely daft….)
Later in history, Robespierre and his ilk, did have some methods in sorting problems like this out, but that seems to have grown out of fashion, Kardashians are more fun, and the bloodletting we mostly do on Unsuspecting Defenseless Brown People (Tm) , it is far a way, no mess to clean up and plebs love it.
Although i would favor a Bastille Solution to useless politicians, it is far more important to deal with their facilitators, the MSM, and the quislings in their employ, these inherent amoral scumbags are long overdue for some Reeducation, a thing which has been overlooked in history’s revolutions and rebellions, they always seemed to have avoided The Hood and The Noose (Tm) … no it is not a pub.
But while Emperor Trumpie visit’s , the British can , let me paraphrase the dear Antoinette “No bread ? Give them cake. No houses? Give them castles. No jobs! Give them Banks.
We on the continent meanwhile, will try and see how we can untangle us from this unholy influence from USUK without the whole EU idea collapses, at least our energy needs seems to be secured.
I like it.
perhaps trump could go on a tour of Salisbury…
Provide the locals with manpads?
the british government and the security services are the ENEMY of the people
Off-topic but presumably of interest to this very valuable site:
Mr. Murray once commented on the neo-Nazi Andriy Parubiy being welcomed by the British establishment:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/10/a-nazi-welcomed-by-the-british-establishment/
It seems that Mr. Parubiy has now also been welcomed by the Scottish Parliament:
“SCOTTISH politicians gave a round of applause to the founder of a Ukrainian neonazi party today, prompting calls for a review of parliamentary vetting processes.
Andriy Parubiy, who co-founded the neonazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU) in 1991, was welcomed to Holyrood in his role as chairman of the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian parliament.
The SNPU, which disbanded in 2014 and effectively became the Svoboda party, restricted membership to ethnic Ukrainians and had a Waffen SS-style Wolfsangel logo.”
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/scottish-parliament-welcomes-founder-ukrainian-neonazi-party