My world view changed forever when, after 20 years in the Foreign Office, I saw colleagues I knew and liked go along with Britain’s complicity in the most terrible tortures, as detailed stunningly in the recent Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee Report. They also went along with keeping the policy secret, deliberately disregarding all normal record taking procedures, to the extent that the Committee noted:
131. We note that we have not seen the minutes of these meetings either: this causes us great concern. Policy discussions on such an important issue should have been minuted. We support Mr Murray’s own conclusion that were it not for his actions these matters may never have come to light.
The people doing these things were not ordinarily bad people; they were just trying to keep their jobs, comforting themselves with the thought that they were only civil servants obeying orders. Many were also actuated by the nasty “patriotism” that grips in time of war, as we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Almost nobody in the FCO stood up against the torture or against the illegal war – Elizabeth Wilmshurst, Carne Ross and I were the only ones to leave over it.
I then had the still more mortifying experience of the Foreign Office seeking to punish my dissent by bringing a series of accusations of gross misconduct – some of them criminal – against me. The people bringing the accusations knew full well they were false. The people investigating them knew they were false from about day 2. But I was put through a hellish six months of trial by media before being acquitted on all the original counts (found guilty of revealing the charges, whose existence was an official secret!). The people who did this to me were people I knew.
I had served as First Secretary in the British Embassy in Poland, and bumped up startlingly against the history of the Holocaust in that time, including through involvement with organising the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. What had struck me most forcibly was the sheer scale of the Holocaust operation, the tens of thousands of people who had been complicit in administering it. I could never understand how that could happen – until I saw ordinary, decent people in the FCO facilitate extraordinary rendition and torture. Then I understood, for the first time, the banality of evil or, perhaps more precisely, the ubiquity of evil. Of course, I am not comparing the scale of what happened to the Holocaust – but evil can operate on different scales.
I believe I see it again today. I do not believe that the majority of journalists in the BBC, who pump out a continual stream of “Corbyn is an anti-semite” propaganda, believe in their hearts that Corbyn is a racist at all. They are just doing their job, which is to help the BBC avert the prospect of a radical government in the UK threatening the massive wealth share of the global elite. They would argue that they are just reporting what others say; but it is of course the selection of what they report and how they report it which reflect their agenda.
The truth, of which I am certain, is this. If there genuinely was the claimed existential threat to Jews in Britain, of the type which engulfed Europe’s Jews in the 1930’s, Jeremy Corbyn, Billy Bragg, Roger Waters and I may humbly add myself would be among the few who would die alongside them on the barricades, resisting. Yet these are today loudly called “anti-semites” for supporting the right to oppose the oppression of the Palestinians. The journalists currently promoting those accusations, if it came to the crunch, would be polishing state propaganda and the civil servants writing railway dockets. That is how it works. I have seen it. Close up.
News from India today: 2013 Bodh Gaya bomb blasts: All five convicts sentenced to life in prison
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/64412057.cms
Some Indian Muslim youths wanted to revenge alleged atrocities on Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar by putting 13 IEDs around Buddhism’s holiest place…..
My thoughts on some of what has been written previously by various individuals in this blog.
1. Racism is a universal evil,and in my opinion should not be compartmentalised into specific subcategories, because that in itself means that some races should be more protected than others.
2. Racism acts or thoughts targets individuals or communities, but not countries, states or governments. You cannot help being born of a certain race but states and governments are artificial constructs that have political and other aims that can change and manipulated to change with time and events. It is therefore somewhat problematic to equate the criticism of states and governments and their actions with racism whereby they cannot be criticised.
3. Criticising someone of any ethnic group constructively or in debate is totally different from vicarious accusations just because they belong to that race. Debate should be allowed in these topics as long as they do not transgress these boundaries. In other words ones race must not be used as an excuse for protection against criticism.
4. The three major monotheistic religions emanating from the ME have common roots. Some of the practices in the area are therefore guided by religion but others are of cultural origin and may be common to the areas of influence due to culture rather than to religion. In this respect some of these practices may go back to the ancient Egyptians. Some people even believe that some of the religious concepts such as the holy trinity may have originated from ancient Egyptian religion.
5. It is therefore important to understand that certain practices associated with religion are not really proscribed by religion but by custom.
6. The three monotheistic religions in the ME have written religious texts, The Torah, The Bible and the Quran, but in addition are supplemented by the Talmud and the Hadith in case of Judaism and Islam. Moreover the religious texts have been subjected with time to various interpretations by experts and theologians, some of which are conflicting.
7. Because of the above difficulties it is really not possible to use scriptures as a universal judgement on modern issues and in international affairs, secular decisions are made but with attention to religious sensitivities. The same does not always apply to cultural sensitivities.
8. Massacres and genocides have occurred throughout history. They are evil whoever commits them and whoever the victim is. The scale of the horror may be different and the methods may also be different but the universality and the ubiquity of the underlying evil thoughts behind them should be condemned by all. The lessons from any one of these should be a universal call to abolish or reduce the possibility of this happening again.
9. These genocides often occur within societies when one group turns against another (usually minorities) and start the process of killing.
10. The process is gradual and starts by first recognising and characterising ‘The other’ as a first step. This is where tropes, profiling and generalisations come in as a first step of the process. It can be argued that this is happening already in many parts of the world and against many groups, too many to list, now and therefore alarm bells should start to sound.
11. This process may then progress to discrimination through various laws and other overt and covert actions. This is also happening in some places and can be recognised.
12. There has been a split in the modern world between what is known as ‘western values’ associated with modernity and advanced civilisation and this is centred also around the Judaeo-Christian religions and at least implying the exclusion of Islam and the rest of the world. This is not entirely a useful construct and may have some racist implications.
13. Whereas Islam from its early days started a project of conquest to ‘spread the word’ the resulting conquests often led to conversions but also tolerance for the conquered if they did not convert, provided the paid a ‘gizia’ a form of tax but also provided you were Christian or Jew but not non-believer who either had to convert, be exiled or executed. Christianity, initially a religion of peace not based on conquest, fought-back through the Crusades but later started their own major re-conquest and the brutal introduction of Catholic Christianity into South America is well documented. Later also religion was recruited in ‘civilising the savages’ as one of the supposed aims of the British Empire. The Muslims never displaced or exterminated other people but converted them and incorporated them into a ‘cultural/religious’ empire.
14. Whereas the current so called ‘Western values’ derive a lot from reformation values of separation of religion from the state and increasing tolerance to new ideas, the expression is often used in a wrong and self-righteous way and in the wrong context.
15. The Islamic world has not had a proper ‘reformation’. The Arab and Muslim world in general often rely heavily on Islam either in the state and the law, as in Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, but also in secular states. The influence of Islam is still predominant and pre-eminent in many secular states in countries with Muslim majorities.
16. Sadly the West’s support has been towards the more conservative Arab states, because of oil and against the secular states because of their nationalistic characteristic of independent thoughts. This support has thwarted attempts by certain Muslim reformists instead and extended to even supporting extremists, starting with the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, to fight the USSR and continuing to this day in supporting the extremists in Syria and supporting the war in Yemen.
17. The above support has been used both as a weapon against independent secular regimes, but also to stoke up a certain Islamophobia, something that some commentators have picked on. There are here some similarities in the use of immigration by capitalist societies to undercut workers and at the same time to demonise the immigrants.
So my thoughts are that we must combat true racism and we must do so vigorously and universally. We must also separate fact from fiction, religion from tradition and race from states. We may for example agree that the burqa is dehumanising or anti-women and so on but recognise that this is a complex cultural and not necessarily religious issue as the majority of Muslim women do not wear the Burqa. Targeting it as a manifestation of Islamic extremism is wrong. It takes a trivial issue and elevates it to a symbol without trying to understand neither the basic problem nor the purpose of the attack. In the case of Johnson’s attack, using abusive similes is counterproductive.
Not forgetting, in recent decades, Blair’s war on Iraq and Cameron’s and Sarkozy’s war on Libya, the ongoing war in Syria plus all the Western sponsored destabilization in Middle Eastern countries for the sake of the plan for a Greater Israel.
“Greater Israel”: The Zionist Plan for the Middle East
The Infamous “Oded Yinon Plan”.
By Israel Shahak and Prof Michel Chossudovsky
Global Research, May 17, 2018
https://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815
I have just been reading Louis Yako’s words on Counterpunch. His poems at the end of the essay below are thoughtful and moving.
He is a refugee from Iraq living in the US as are some of the millions from Palestine.
‘ One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 7.2 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 4.3 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations.’
http://al-awda.org/learn-more/faqs-about-palestinian-refugees/
July 20, 2018
Celebrating the Wounds of Exile with Poetry
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/20/celebrating-the-wounds-of-exile-with-poetry/
“using abusive similes is counterproductive”
Not for racists. He is one. Don’t mean to belittle all your above points, but this is what they do.
& on the predicable subject of “it’s not a race”.
The point is not of whatever a group under attacks is a “race” …it’s the”defending” group (really the attacking group) who believe in such a notion. Or some kind of cultural superiority. “western values” etc …And it’s from that position of racist fantasy that they “justify” treating others less. They are not human (like them) to them.
Even when they are executing mothers in front of their children. Those people are less in their eyes.
What Trump is doing on families is analogous to what some nazi’s did in this way. ^
They seem to have a thing about hurting mothers & children.
Ok. Now take Pakistan: separately independent since 1947 as a section of Muslims declared they couldn’t be a minority amongst Hindus. Split in 1971 due to regional differences (some racism possibly too) in a very bloody drama for which neither Christians, Hindus or seculars (all of the same race) can be blamed. No oil at all, just location and (big but low educated) population. Military actually in charge more and more with Mullahs: ~120 nukes in stock. Minorities diminished from 23% to 3%. No Jcws in the picture. Chinese coming up.
Indonesia and Malaysia other cases without Jcws, but diminishing minorities.
You views please SA?
I have never said that racism is particular to any race or group of people. The peculiar case of Israel is that many of the people who took over the country were imported and displaced others who have lived there for millennia and denied them thier basic rights of home and livelihood. The closest similarity here is to the colonialist invasions of North and south America and of Australia. In these instances the local population where either slowly exterminated or put into reservations and thier lands usurped. This is therefore a modern relic of methods used by colonialists in previous centuries and why it is unique in the modern world. The conflicts elsewhere have been between people living close together for periods of time where the balance of power or other events have led to some proportion of the population turning against the other. Various vested interests then came into the bloody conflicts that follow.
Pakistan is a terrible case. It was an artificial construct that was a result of various manipulations including Britain and politicians with vested interest in the Indian subcontinent. There are almost as many muslims in India as in Pakistan and the partition did lead to extremely terrible ethnic cleansing in both directions. Also do not forget that this artificial construct originally included what was called east Pakistan (now Bangladesh) which then became separated after another bloody war. This was a war between two Predominantly Muslim countries but not related to religious sectarianism but to ethnic nationalism.
By the way I do not condone any form of racism and that was the thinking behind my original post.. The fact that any country should possess weapons of mass destruction is a blot on mankind. There is no ethical justification whatsoever for possessing them and humanity must unite to condemn thier possession under the false pretence of deterrence because in effect they are coercive weapons for bullying others.
there’s only one race
Since one? There is one species but many races within this human species, unless you wish to have your own definition.
Sorry since when not one
update on Melanie Shaw case – this is happening in britain now – detention and torture of child abuse whistleblower
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tvcu0CIcnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQAH2tHtTw
update on Melanie Shaw case – this is happening in britain now – detention and torture of child abuse whistleblower
ukcolumn from about -41mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tvcu0CIcnU
simon sideways blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQAH2tHtTw
As the service in Amiens begins, commemorating the sacrifice of 44,000 French and British men, this is Gary Corseri’s poem about Hiroshima. He is a friend. His wife is Japanese.
Hiroshima Spring
By Gary Corseri
30 July, 2015
[Author’s Note: UNESCO declared 1979 “The International Year of the Child.” Fatefully, I found myself in Hiroshima that spring, surrounded by ghosts…. On the 70th anniversary of the atomic bombing of civilians in a prostrate, defeated Japan—the greatest act of “terrorism” in history, not to end a war, as has been told, but to establish imperial hegemony– let us look around our world today and consider– to what end?]
“… how beset we were with what… we had been taught….”
–Kenneth Patchen.
A poem for voices, shakuhachi and koto….
(Sound of shakuhachi, as though the instrument itself is breathing–)
https://www.countercurrents.org/corseri300715.htm
Not forgetting Canadian and Australian troops. The figure of 44,000 dead comes under the attribution of ‘British Empire’ on the Wikipedia entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens_(1918)
You might like this excellent interview:
https://majorityreportradio.com/2014/08/06/86-greg-mitchell-the-hiroshima-nagasaki-coverup
“Greg Mitchell author of Atomic Cover-up: Two U.S. Soldiers, Hiroshima & Nagasaki explains why the history of the United States dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki matters, the stunning civilian death toll from Hiroshima, the examples we are still living from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, why dropping a nuclear weapon had no strategic justification, why Hiroshima was picked as a target, the cover up of the bombing of Hiroshima, Japan’s current nuclear policy and its history, how we are still distorting the history of Hiroshima, President Obama’s shift in policy toward Hiroshima and the dangerous legacies of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.“
More self-promotion, I’m afraid. Douglas Murray blogged again on the cynical tactics of the Left. What’s important, I believe, is that we don’t get drawn in. As Steve Bannon explained, “the longer [the Left] talk about identity politics, I got ’em. I want them to talk about racism every day.” Instead, we should keep a clear head and try to think out exactly what is going on. I responded here:
https://www.academia.edu/37202939/Douglas_Murray_and_the_Cynical_Tactics_of_the_Right
@ Chris Friel August 8, 2018 at 14:31
‘SYRIA: French Academic Exposes Left-Wing Charlatans as Harbingers of Terrorism’:
http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/05/20/syria-french-academic-exposes-left-wing-charlatans-as-harbingers-of-terrorism/
Bruno Guigue exposes the French ‘Left’, and much the same can be said for the British and US ‘Left’.
And the great blind spots in the UK ‘Left’ re 2001 and Syria are sickening to behold, to say nothing about 2005 and subsequent ‘Terrorist Attacks’ (they probably believe the Salisbury/Skripal/Amesbury ‘narratives’ as well (and narratives in multi-plural, as the narratives keep changing).
The one positive thing I’ve noticed going from one news website to another is the huge disparity between the MSM’s editorial line and BTL comments.
I used to be fairly terrified by social media and ‘comments’ but I’m now beginning to see its a powerful weapon against the criminalising of language.
As I understand it, most words are defined by common usage…that’s the rule the OED follows. But there are two (very topical) words that do not follow this rule: one is ‘A-S’ and the other is genocide. Both these words have constantly changing legal definitions. Its clearly a deeply flawed way of doing things. Just take the conversation about ‘genocide’ on this page – most people assume the word means the killing of a vast number of people from a particular country or ethnic group. In actual fact, it also includes the ‘intention’ to kill people, sexually abuse or hurt people physically or mentally. Basically, if I now say I am planning to mentally abuse every single person in the world who has a name with the letter ‘A’ in it then you’ve just witnessed the worst genocide in human history. And, if you think I’m joking or simply don’t believe in this form of genocide then you are a genocide denier.
Made By Dom,
I think the worse criminalising of language, is the assumption that most people reading, will have any idea of what (for example) MSM, BTL, OED, and “A-S” mean. It is far more likely, that even a worldwide readership, will understand basic English swear words, and their various meanings of the same word, depending on the context of the sentence, especially if it is spoken language in almost any pub or market anywhere in the world.
Almost no-one will understand your acronyms including me.
Tony
I can figure out all of those except BTL.
Below The Line, i’m guessing.
Hasten to add i haven’t read his BTL, nor am i tempted!
I thought it was Bacon Tomato Lettuce, a popular sandwich so I believe.
@ MJ August 8, 2018 at 15:34
Ditto but add OED
Oxford English Dictionary
Sorry Tony.
I’ve actually seen these modern acronyms used all the time on this site. I only used A-S because the actual word ‘antisemitism’ has, in the past, meant that a particular comment may end up in a state of limbo awaiting moderation.
As for the rest of the acronyms… MSM equals Mainstream Media, BTL equals Below The Line (meaning comments below the main article), OED is The Oxford English Dictionary and BLT is a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich.
Made By Dom,
I only responded because a core of your topic was “against the criminalising of language”, which followed a comment by Ishmael who used the acronym PJW, as if everyone would have a clue who Paul Joseph Watson is – soon they won’t cos he has been banned from more than half the internet which I think is somewhat unfair, as he comes from Sheffied, and has a much nicer voice than Alex Jones, who sounds like finger nails scratching a traditional blackboard.
As someone who has worked in the computer industry since 1972, I historically have been far more guilty of the use of jargon, and acronyms, than most people. I am also guilty of never actually having succeeded in writing anything in the Guardian’s comment pages since it moved from Manchester, and I don’t read it either. OffGuardian is pretty good though.
https://off-guardian.org/
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the recommendation. I’ve been on OffGuardian a couple of times.
Shamefully, a member of my family writes for The Guardian. Can’t possibly name them but I noticed something quite unusual that some people on this page might find interesting. Apologies if this is already out in the open and old news. But this fairly insignificant journalist has had the Philip Cross treatment. What’s interesting about it is this: said family member has no social life at all, no friends and does no form of social networking. I can only assume the Philip Cross source must be someone at the Guardian.
I can’t comment on Off-Guardian anymore (IP ban?): has this site become a mirror of its nemesis?
I guess one of the main commenters there (Mulga..) is a buddy of the site owners and doesn’t like different views. I do not use any bad language but this character does nothing but. S/he also up votes her/himself xx times frequently, a flaw the Graun disabled long ago.
@ Made By Dom August 8, 2018 at 16:10
And IED is ‘Improvised Explosive Device’; hopefully to be used as a suppository by the likes of May, Bliar, Boris, ‘Boobus Orangicus’, Cheney, Bolton etc.
Paul Barbara,
LOL – oops
Made By Dom,
Let me Guess.
Have you or a ” a member of my family writes for The Guardian” spent some time in Russia?
https://off-guardian.org/2018/01/09/video-aaron-mate-asks-luke-harding-what-collusion/
Well done, but I didn’t buy any of your books, especially the one about Julian Assange.
I’m ot sure about Assange, but Luke is quite obviously controlled by The CIA & MI6
How else, could he write and speak such crap.
It may not be his fault. Has he been on courses run by The Tavistock Institute?
I have.
Tony
Sadly, no. It’s not that interesting. But, like a lot of Guardian journalists, this family member does write and speak a certain amount of crap…so you were half right.
Tony, so you understood SFA and felt like telling Made By Dom to GTF! (Common ones used in Scottish pubs ?).
Made by Dom
I am sure you are being provocative by producing this reductio ad absurdum
“Basically, if I now say I am planning to mentally abuse every single person in the world who has a name with the letter ‘A’ in it then you’ve just witnessed the worst genocide in human history. ”
First, everyone in the world with a name starting with the letter A cannot be categorised or indeed made aware of your attempts at mentally abuse them. First obstacle you will meet is how to approach this, is it the letter A in English or Roman script, will you use the letters Aleph, as a substitute in Arabic and Hebrew, what about Cyrillic languages? This I tell you is just the beginning of your problems because some cultures use a surname, others don’t some use family names that are attributes. Some change thier names on marriage, others don’t.
Next you have just assumed that people with names starting with the letter A have commonality which makes them a ‘people’, that is an impossibility. There is no commonality or community of such people.
I shall stop here only to say that the genocidal intention is destruction not just as a thought crime. Surely it is not confined to killing because there is also cultural genocide.
Thanks SA,
I’m glad you’ve taken the time to prove my plans for genocide are ludicrous. If I end up in court, I may call you as a witness.
Perhaps my example was a poor one but my main point is that most people will talk confidently about issues surrounding genocide without consulting the legal definition. Have you tried looking it up? Its immense and will undoubtedly change several more times as the years go by. I’m not convinced this is a good idea. There are already many heated arguments and accusations of genocide denial. The irony is that some politicians are probably quite happy with the common usage association of genocide denial with Naziism because their targets are the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Noam Chomsky.
The great thing about on line comments is they reinforce the ‘common usage’ nature of language. If we champion common usage over legal or governmental definitions of words then we can actually have meaningful discussions at the same time as spotting those that wish to make false accusations of antisemitism or genocide denial.
I think the first genocide on the planet was Cro-Magnon man, the early white man, wiping out the Neanderthals. And as a white man I can say this – white men with money and influence are the most murderous species that ever lived. White Europeans oppress the Palestinians, who’ll be wiped out if ever their oppressors get an opportunity to cover their crimes like a world war.
Hey Made By Dom,
Interesting about your family member. I recently got speaking to someone who was good university buddies with a certain now mid market Sunday tabloid journalist.
He told me that this journalist at uni was very very shy, but very kind, very conscientious about things such as environment, wars you know the type.
Anyhow though they both worked in London they kind of drifted apart. Well they finally arranged to meet up about a year ago, and much to this chap’s sadness his friend had become bitter and cynical was a raging alcoholic and cocaine abuser. All the things he used to care about he now dismissed as infantile and was constantly tweeting on his phone and getting very irritable about it. He sad he felt his old friend had been driven to drink by some very harsh work place bullying.
When you’re a uk mainstream journalist especially political, you are a de-facto propaganda arm for colonial violence and I don’t think that sits very well with creative sensitive types that are attracted to writing.
Oh Lordy, Lordy as the “you’re fired” ex-head of the FBI might say, the wheels are nearly off the clowns charabang.
“there is a major unanswered question surrounding the decision to recruit and rely on Steele as a Confidential Informant–the U.S. and the United Kingdom have a standing agreement to not recruit each other’s intelligence personnel for clandestine activities. Why was this exception made?”
One of many pertinent facts raised in the as usual excellent and actually informative Patrick Lang latest.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/08/christopher-steele-fbis-confidential-human-source-by-publius-tacitus.html
Do the regular civil service and intelligence readers of this blog have any answer to Mr Langs question? Or indeed on the time line that has emerged from the redacted documents?
No wonder the Groaniad is ignoring the whole issue, the heat is on, they are even having a little go at the tories for a change. Too little, too late Ms V. (Remember that big puff piece they published on Steele last year?)
There was no exception, HMG were in on it from the start, and now they are scared it will all come out, why do you think they are doing all they can to hang absolutely everything they can on Russia?
Absolutely! Reg Dearlove, the former head of MI6 and Steele’s boss and now at Cambridge, defended Steele on BBC a few months ago.
Yes Boris Johnson acts like a far right xenophobe, who longs for the inglorious days of British empire, where everyone knew their place, and carried out their duties in accordance with the hierarchies permission.
On the very controversial subject of face veils, Boris Johnson’s disgraceful comments aside. One has to say that other nations have banned face veils in public (EU countries I might add) on the grounds of security.
France, Belgium, Austria and now Denmark, have banned the wearing of full face veils in public. However, I’m under the impression that other forms of veils (not linked to Islam) are also banned.
I’m pretty sure motorcyclists need to remove their helmets when entering certain public buildings as well.
Does the banning of face veils (not just Islamic ones) infringe on ones religious freedoms? And can we possibly weigh up such moves against doing what we can to maintain a good level of security. It’s a difficult one to answer in this day and age of rampant political correctness.
Meanwhile there are countries in the world where owning a bible could cost you your life, it is seen as keeping extremist material.
https://www.christiantoday.com/article/6-countries-where-owning-a-bible-is-dangerous/84497.htm
Thankfully I’m not the religious sort.
That list of countries where the bible is dangerous is very tendentious, and improbable. Uzbekistan? What about all the Russians there? Morocco? What about the tourists?
Obviously in most of these countries a tourist is not going to be arrested for being in possession of a bible, even if strictly speaking that is against the law. The point is that if a Muslim is caught with a bible he will be punished, possibly even executed, for blasphemy. In Pakistan he would likely be lynched before he even got to court.
Russians in Uzbekistan aren’t tourists, or maybe your knowledge of the world doesn’t extend that far. So you’re side-slipping your argument (which is quite different from your link’s totally tendentious line) – owning a bible is not dangerous, but being a Muslim apostate is. Well, being a Muslim is very dangerous in a large number of countries dominated by Christianity, as giyane will attest. You’ll be lucky if your mosque only gets burnt down, as happens commonly in Britain. I don’t see you protesting about that.
L: “I don’t see you protesting about that.”
Protesting about that? He probably started half of them!
Laguerre
“You’ll be lucky if your mosque only gets burnt down, as happens commonly in Britain.”
So mosques are “commonly” burnt down in Britain? Are you sure of that?
@Laguerre,
Uzbekistan is 93% Muslim, and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan has aligned itself with Daesh.
Take with big pinch of persecution complex salt. It may be that in some of these countries it is forbidden to sell, print or produce version of the bible but danger to life? Seems very far fetched and totally unreferenced.
Yes SA, I think you have a point there, as does Laguerre. I cannot find hard evidence to suggest a complete ban, except online in China, and that’s over a dispute with the Vatican, who wish to appoint a bishop in China, a country with an every expanding Christian leaning population.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/04/06/china-bans-bible-from-online-stores/
I once read that factories in Nanjing province, printed around a million bibles a month, for worldwide companies. Yet China is officially an atheist country.
O come on. He’s a racist.
Agreed, now why the theatrics.
…..I guess it annoys me, all the unbalanced focus lately. & beyond.
i don’t like people making mild in any way in some areas. …Where people are getting hurt.
Well Ishmael I’m sure you know what to expect from Johnson by now. My main point, and it appears no one wants to put their heads above the parapet, was regarding whether or not those EU countries were right or not to ban face veils (and I stress not just Muslim ones) in public.
And as someone else pointed out RoS, we were specifically discussing Johnson’s conduct, which you have actually chosen to devote five words to in your entire post!
“which you have actually chosen to devote five words to in your entire post!”
Jo1.
And what?
I think you’ll find I’ve given Johnson stick time after time in here on a whole host of subjects if you’d care to check.
We know fine well Johnson’s position he’s Islamaphobic in my opinion. However my comment the meat of it anyway, was the veils whether or not the removal of them in public under laws by EU nations is justified or not.
Whilst we are here Jo1, I’ll reply on the Malcom Little comment you posted to me the other day. I was replying to a comment on his demise, it had absolutely nothing to do with a previous Ishmael comment that you mentioned to me.
Not the point RoS. The point is that, like a few others in the more recent debate here about Johnson’s actual words, you’ve skipped over what he said and instead diverted the debate to what people think about the way some Muslim women dress and the reasons why.
People who are taking that route seek to play down Johnson’s conduct by wanting to focus on something else. That’s a cop out. He isn’t just anyone. He’s an MP, he’s the former FS and he’s ridiculing certain citizens of this country, citizens who, police stats show, are already suffering increasing levels of abuse because of the clothing they wear. By choosing to ridicule them himself he’s saying it’s fine to do that. It’s not! It’s appalling yet he’s encouraging it. And responding to his behaviour by basically skipping past it and saying, “Let’s talk about this form of dress and decide whether it’s acceptable.” or “Let’s decide whether other countries were right to ban it.” is to essentially justify what Johnson said.
Others are complaining about Muslims complaining when, currently, we’ve had weeks of complaints from people of a different faith who, with backing from umpteen politicians and much of the UK media, seem empowered beyond belief when it comes to dictating what can be said about them! Can you imagine what would have happened to Johnson had he had a go at a person of that faith? (We know he wouldn’t have but leave that aside.) The answer is he would be toast and so would his political career! See the difference?
Excellent post Jo1. It’s as if following Johnson’s remarks about the Queen loving the Commonwealth because of the ‘crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies’ people had chosen to debate the legitimacy of the Commonwealth.
“Not the point RoS. The point is that, like a few others in the more recent debate here about Johnson’s actual words, you’ve skipped over what he said”
Ermm… I pointed out quite clearly in several comments that Johnson is an islamaphobe and a xenophobe. But I see Jo1, that, that hasn’t satisfied your McCarthyist nature, tough.
Of course, it would appear to me anyway, that you’re so woke and bound by political correctness, that you’re not willing to discuss whether or not those EU countries that have banned face veils in public are justified to do so or not.
“McCarthyist nature”
What a thoroughly silly comment RoS. You let yourself down by indulging in personal insults about those you don’t even know. More evidence of that is delivered by your claim that I’m “woke and bound by political correctness”.
Absolute nonsense.
No they shouldn’t be banned. Unless you somehow assume “looking like a robber” (As a mindset some have adopted) is a relevant issue to law enforcement.
It’s clearly a romanic notion of a robber (& in a skirt). So we’d have never had Occupy. Masks banned? What about when someones face is a mask they lie through? Just as dangerous if not more.
You know how I feel about government, All “untargeted” monitoring is a double abuse. Nobody has a right to tell me how to dress for any profile purposes. It’s government who should be profiled. Those who assume authority who must prove themselves.
Public servats, private citizens. Privacy rights.
……..Unless you actually are in with the “muslim-terrorist” trope..?
You surprise me RoS there’s an issue of personal freedom vs a controlling state here.
Interestingly, Japanese people where face masks in cities because they want to avoid facial recognition (and not for pollution issues, which is usually incorrectly assumed), it’s becoming more of an issue here in London now where the Police claim (and fail) to be able to identify members of the public in a crowd.
I think using the nijab as an excuse to ban facial coverings would be a PR coup. It gives the police a excuse to arrest protestors early on, who chose to where bandanas
It’s a classic case of manufacturing consent picking on a negligible minority creating distrust in the minds of the public and then using that distrust to ram through an authoritarian law.
Shatnersrug: ‘Interestingly, Japanese people where face masks in cities because they want to avoid facial recognition’
Are you sure about that? I had a Japanese girlfriend in London in the 80s—long before facial recognition was a thing—who would wear a surgical mask over the mouth when she had a cold. It’s to stop the spread of germs to other people. You see Japanese people wearing them all the time for this, also when travelling abroad. It’s an example of the wonderful courtesy to others that they have, another fine example being to get up in a mainline train and walk to the vestibule to make or receive a mobile phone call.
You’re right, it’s the same in Thailand, surgical masks are worn for public protection to avoid spreading infections to others not normally to avoid pollution
‘What about when someones face is a mask they lie through?’
Great point.
Looks like Tommy Robinson is in the racist game for the money. If true it’s sure to deflate his loyal knuckledragging boot boys.
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/08/07/an-insider-reveals-tommy-robinsons-far-right-platform-is-actually-a-get-rich-quick-scheme/
“are on the cusp of acting out their frustrations against Muslims as a result. I’ve never seen this before, not in the way it’s playing out now. People are at breaking point — we must not push them further”
It a bit late for that, these RACISTS …(and the includes Borris, & Tony blair) have been feeding violence agains mussels for decades. & since & including the Iraq war (with witch they had do under the cover of dehumanisation PR e.g. “British are special,” ) have been acting out at home & abroad. All war is racist war. Because it’s unacceptable to bomb “your own” children in their beds or starve half a million of them to death.
Oops, only a million of so dead & 100s of thousands of violent attacks. ….On the Cusp?
walk & chew gum.
Yes they are, they really believe it. Else they couidn’t what they do.
And it not a “game” it’s a series genocidal pathology. I bet you wouldn’t call it a game against those i won’t mention (to get past the posing filter).
Else they couldn’t do* what they do.
“have been feeding violence agains mussels for decades. ”
Ishmael have you taken to writing in conundrums in the last three comments, or is my eyesight worse than I thought. ?
You could say that of any MP, and most of them, I’d say 90% plus, are bought and paid for, fiddling expenses, feathering nests, etc. Often all of the above.
If we are to rise above the debating level of a Punch and Judy show, we must at least try to hold everyone, those we love and those we hate, equally, to the same moral standards.
Life works in mysterious ways. It’s a good coincidence that Boris’s remarks have come at the same time as the Saudi-Canada spat. I hope it’ll help concentrate hearts and minds towards the discrimination and degradation of women in Islam wherever they are in the world. I can’t believe that we are well into the 21st century and we are talking about basic women’s rights.
There are some good comments upstream on this thread by Anne, Andy, Mary Paul and others. This is not a subject to be hidden under a Persian carpet or a tribal rug.
Boris is not in the least concerned about women’s rights, like most people on the alt-right, but use it as a cloak for their own prejudices. Nor does he care a fig about the burqa. His motives are entirely self-regarding and encouraged by his meeting with Bannon last week.
You may well be right about his motives, but does that invalidate his arguments and what he wishes to see happen?
I suggest you read George Orwells’s “Benefit of Clergy” if you don’t understand the above.
He doesn’t have ‘arguments’. He has calculated postures, for political gain. Like the rest of them.
Don’t get bogged down in the minutia.
Steve Bannon is making his move – and things are about to change. A winner meets a nation of losers and cowards – and his bet is that there are enough losers who are not cowards and who are sick of losing and will be attracted to a man who promises to make them winners.
What you could not or would not produce for yourselves will be delivered to you from across the Atlantic.
This drooling, content-free praise is not only a little nauseating, I’m wondering if it’s even meant to be serious. Just a rather unfunny parody.
This is sarcasm Loony right? Or to give you the benefit of the doubt (and only god knows why) you’re pointing out Bannon’s attraction to failing white men, that it’s all the fault of those dark skinned foreigners.
No. It is the fault of cowards.
Not long ago I pointed out that it is impossible NOT to have the death penalty – the only choice is Judicial or extra Judicial execution. I was roundly boo-ed for my ignorance. Here is today’s example of extra Judicial execution.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/david-gaut-murder-baby-wales-new-tredegar-gwent-suspects-arrested-latest-a8482441.html
You get things like this because as a society you are too cowardly to pursue the alternative. It is not about the sanctity of human life. It is about a refusal to accept responsibility. It is about a refusal to say or do anything at all that is not an officially sanctioned word or deed. Bannon is going to make people face up to this – and he is going to make people ask some fundamental questions about themselves.
Sure… take one example, and extrapolate to infinity. Utter genius.
Not really Glenn.
Here is another relatively contemporaneous example
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-44942292
The point is people argue against Judicial Execution because they think it makes them virtuous or pure or moral. In fact all they are doing is transferring the role of executioner to the unregulated free market. Many of the same people who oppose Judicial execution also oppose unregulated markets – think of the irony.
The same thought processes are at work with regard to Islamic dress. Most people expressing an opinion have no idea whether women are wearing this clothing because they want to or because they are forced to. Completely hiding your face in public is not part of the contemporary culture of the west – so there is a highly visible culture clash.
It needs to be discussed – but all discussion is instantly shut down with wailing harridans screeching about racism. This is simple cowardice – too afraid to discuss the subject so respond with abuse and invective.
Cut to the chase:
Do places with the death penalty have lower murder rates?
Is introduction of the death penalty followed by reduced murder rates?
Is abolition of the death penalty followed by increased murder rates?
Saudi Arabia executes people all the time, and seems to churn out murderous extremists rather reliably.
Clark: Absolutely right, but this is not the sort of argument advocates for the death penalty (DP) look for. They want emotive, rabble-rousing talk about restitution, and pretend it’s a deterrent.
There has been ample opportunity to study the effects of having the DP in the US, in states where it has been abolished, introduced, re-introduced, or restricted. Does this cause a positive outcome? Of course not. In fact, it makes the murder rate worse – for instance, you definitely do not want to leave witnesses. And advocates for the DP know this, but like to pretend otherwise.
The last argument is for bringing closure to the bereaved. But studies have shown this to be a false case – have a listen if you’re interested:
https://majorityreportradio.com/2012/06/18/618-abe-bonowitz-sen-sherrod-brown
“Abe Bonowitz from the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty on waning support for capital punishment policy, the devastating emotional toll and the truth about its costs.”
“…………who are sick of losers and will be attracted to a man who promises to make them winners, but nonetheless he will use them as fodder.”
I must say Loony this is fighting talk alright.
So if the non cowards heroes are Nigel ( Ich bin ein Berliner ) Farage.
Nigel (Je suis Charlie Lawson ).
Boris ( I’m not sure whether I’m a Yank or a Turk?) Johnson and that these are the ‘ Anti Establishment ‘ figures Bannon wants English ( and I choose my words carefully here ) patriots to rally around?
No doubt Jacob ( Fields of Athenry ) Rees Mogg will be dabbing his quiverin patriotic lips with a Macclesfield silk hankie at the sheer patriotism of a Yank telling a bunch of Limeys what to do.
Looney you, Bannon et al need to establish just who the ‘ Establishment ‘ is before you all embark on your quest of freeing the people.
From where I’m sitting it’s either stay with the EU ( oppressors ) or go to the US ( another set of oppressors.
We could try the BRICS though as it appears they are doing quite well.
For the record, not that anyone cares, I’d expect many people oppose the death penalty because they don’t trust government with that sort of power and don’t want it in the tampering hands of slimebag politicians. That’s my position.
Observer,
I personally do not have a problem with people wearing bin bags over their heads, even if they are made of plastic, providing it is their own free choice, and they are not dressed in this way, because they have been coerced into doing so against their will.
Over 10 years ago, I was travelling to the Indian Ocean, with my wife and kids, and we had a stop-off in Dubai. Because they were very close, it only seemed natural and normal to take our son’s girlfriend with us. Her parents were fine about it. She just happens to be incredibly beautiful, and dressed as if she was going to Spain on her summer holiday.
I personally found the result absoulutely totally hilarious, waiting in Dubai for the next flight.
The poor girl had no idea, why all these men, were going out of their way to pass close to take a look at my son’s girlfriend.
My daughter who dressed conservatively (or my son) should have told her.
She ended up trying to hide, behind the both of them, whilst I couldn’t stop laughing.
Tony
You never explained to her the attitude towards women over there and found it funny!
Soothmoother,
She had dressed in the same way any English teenage girl would, who were going on their summer holiday to a foreign country. How would she know to dress differently? She dressed the same way as her friends at school would, some of who’m have Muslim parents. She was conforming to the norm – when its hot.
Why should such a beautiful girl, cover herself up, because of male leeches, who have never seen a pretty girl in their own country, except by an arranged marriage – often to a cousin?
It’s about time such male people stop being controlling parasites on beautiful women. The hypocrisy is outrageous.
My wife and I have travelled thorugh numerous Muslim countries since 1982, dressed much the same way and never had any such problem.
I found it funny, cos it was.
She knew what she was doing.
She’s a lovely girl.
She doesn’t need me or anyone else, telling her how to dress.
You seem to be telling me, that I should have told her what to wear.
Then I would be controlling her.
I am not a Muslim, and I am not her Dad
Tony
She was under your supervision and you laughed at her discomfort. I think that’s questionable
You stated that your son should have told her. Sorry, I don’t think it’s funny at all.
Soothmoother,
She was very brave. I don’t think the experiece harmed her self confidence. In fact she went on an introductory diving course with me…and wore the same clothes coming back through the same airport with a big smile on her face.
So who was harmed?
And why did you not think it was funny?
Whoose feelings are you trying to protect?
Is this your problem or mine?
Tony
There is so much hypocrisy here. Remember who our great friends in the ME are? We even sell them arms to kill Yemenis and starve them. Instead of attacking a miniscule number of women with offensive insulting remarks, he should direct his remarks to the fount of women’s oppression in Riyadh . He is just a posturing offensive coward.
Well said. If Boris wants a worthy target, he should go after the source by highlighting the extreme corruption in the Saudi religious power structure, and Saudi’s global projection of power via its repressive and violent ideology.
But Boris prefers populist appeal typical of the gutter press.
Ah,…
Actress Alyssa Milano Blames Russians for Ohio Loss
https://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2018/08/08/actress-alyssa-milano-blames-russians-for-ohio-loss/
It is the new excuse you can use for any results that turn against you now. Must be a pretty lousy electoral system, so easily manipulated.
SA
Indeed and Its so ridiculous but just as dangerous because these people really believe in these braindead conspiracies.
And speaking of posting filters, why isun’t the word muslim filtered for acceptance monitoring on this blog?
@ Ishmael August 8, 2018 at 18:16
Shush, don’t give them ideas.
There will be a second price rise for British Gas customers this year, making an average £104 rise in their bills.
Mr Conn, well named, has a massive salary increase as doubtless will the other directors.
Boss of British Gas owner gets 40% pay rise as millions live in fuel poverty
Centrica chief Iain Conn’s package leaps to £4.15m – enough to pay heating and lighting bills for nearly 4,000 customers
23 Mar 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/22/pay-rise-british-gas-owner-centrica-iain-conn-rising-prices
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson will be getting the order of the boot if Dominic Grieve has anything to do with it.
When I type ‘Pfeffel’ I am always tempted to type ‘Piffle’.
The Bullingdon Boy is a thug, a misogynist and a bully.
@ Sharp Ears August 8, 2018 at 18:24
And a cad, dastard and bounder to boot.
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1027234883842846723
See, when it happens to muslims it’s funny. But anyone who dehumanises …Them. It’s a different story that will run and run and run and run.
This is the “anti racist” “left” in the UK.
& I’m not saying he thinks it’s funny, but ok to joke over & around. Can you imagine anyone of them approaching antisemitism with this attitude?
38 Degrees petition to Philip Hammond about Amazon’s tax avoidance/evasion.
‘Online retail giant Amazon is paying even less in tax this year, despite rocketing profits. It’s a joke. But when our high street shops are struggling and public services are desperately stretched for cash, it’s not at all funny.
The story is splashed across the papers. But Amazon bosses will be hoping that by tomorrow it’s old news – and that the rules which let them get away with paying even less tax stay as they are.
That’s where we come in. If hundreds of thousands of us call on the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, to make sure companies like Amazon can no longer get away with paying less tax than the shops that give our high streets life – he’ll know where the British public stands. And there will be even more pressure on him to level the playing field.
If you think companies like Amazon should pay their fair share in tax, will you sign the petition now?’
http://tinyurl.com/yb3jz4ry
+90,000 signatures already.
I was interested – and I must admit surprised to read the following about Norman Finkelstein (Wikipedia)
“The long-standing pro-Palestinian activist and political scientist Norman Finkelstein deemed the BDS movement a “cult”. He argued that the worldwide movement was overly controlled by the Ramallah headquarters, made unrealistic claims so as to hide a wish to destroy Israel, and accused the movement of exaggerating its achievements and its capacity, most notably by maintaining that it represents the entire pro-Palestine movement. Finkelstein also asserted that the movement misrepresented and misinterpreted Israel’s obligation under international law as defined by the International Court of Justice.[134][135][136][137]”
What he apparently said can be read more fully in the footnotes 134 to 137.
If true, there’s food for thought there.
He supports it.
Though he made clear he thinks it won’t reach a broad public because it dosn’t take a position on Israel.
I admit that there might be no inherent contradiction between Norman supporting BDS (which you claim – any links for that, btw?) and the criticisms which he apparently made and which are sourced in the Wikipedia passage (footnotes 134 – 137). Do you have any comments on his criticisms, which to my mind go somewhat further and more widely than just saying “it won’t reach a broad public”?
Here is a summary of an interview.
Norman Finkelstein on BDS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggdO7C70P8
NF
“I support the BDS. But I said it will never reach a broad public until and unless they’re explicit in their goal. And their goal has to include the recognition of Israel or it’s a nonstarter. It won’t reach the public because the moment you go out there Israel will start to say what about we and they won’t recognize our right and in fact that’s correct. You can’t answer the Israelis on that because they’re making a statement that’s factually correct. It’s not an accidental and unwitting omission that BDS does not mention Israel. You know that and I know that
It’s not like they’re “oh we forgot to mention it.” They won’t mention it because they know it will split the movement. Cause there’s a large segment of the movement that wants to eliminate Israel.
You talk about BDS they make all these claims about their victories. All their claims. You know what? You use these ten fingers? These more than suffice to count all their victories. There are superfluous fingers here to count all their victories. It’s a cult! Where the guru says we have all these victories and everyone nods their head and no one sits down to do the arithmetic on their own.
Yes it’s had some victories no question about it. But the way people promote it as if it’s proven itself and we’re on the verge of a victory of some sort. It’s just sheer nonsense. Its a cult. And I personally am tired of it.
There’s no Israel. That’s what it’s really about. And you think you’re fooling anybody. You think you’re so clever that people can’t figure that out for themselves? No they understand the arithmetic perfectly well. Are you going to reach a broad public which is going to hear the Israeli side ‘they want to destroy us?’ No you’re not. And frankly you know what you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t read a broad public because you’re dishonest. And I wouldn’t trust those people if I had to live in this state. I wouldn’t. It’s dishonesty.”
& No, i don’t.
He illustrates the board quite well imo.
On a side note, I may understand why some want Israel not to exist, but it’s not a moral position to take in this era/culture…System. My long view is no state should exist. They have no inherent “right” like nobody has the “right” to run a prison, but I’m not going to say it’s “wrong” to give them a yard or a bigger cage.
We have to deal with here and now atm. Though I think goals should never be forgotten.
Your friend been editing again?
It doesn’t look like Finklestein (if his blog is anything to go by) is ready to switch sides anytime soon.
http://normanfinkelstein.com
Re Norman Finklestein: Wikipedia. No I won’t bother to check the entry, it’s an unreliable source, so I would need the see the original material on such a controversial person, but the reference material fails as it falls at the first hurdle as I check the edits, it turns out to have been manipulated by the Cross person, I don’t want to have to check each edit one by one to see what’s been altered, it’s a waste of time. You need to cite a better source if you want to sway opinion.
Exactly, you can’t believe Wiki entries on anything political. They are heavily edited and manipulated. Waste of time.
Just as 99.9% of history books and newspapers etc. are.
@ Hatuey August 8, 2018 at 23:2
The difference is, once someone has written the book, if someone wants to edit it and change it they have to reprint the book.
But with the smart-assed ‘Cross’ phenomenon, any Jack/Jacqueline Squirt can alter an online Wiki page, and if he/she/they/it have enough friends of conspirators they can keep re-editing the piece faster than any normal human being can correct their aberrations.Anyone who thinks the ‘Cross’ business is a one-creep band must be doolally.
Paul, it amounts to the same thing in terms of outcomes. Sinister as eff, for sure, corrupting, plain wrong too, but I’d say 99% of history books fall into those categories.
There’s a real high tempo effort to sterilise the web going on at the moment and Cross is best understood in that context, whatever he is. I think the terms are something like; if you publish online you do so on certain terms. That’s more or less identical to the terms that exist in publishing generally.
The Alex Jones case is interesting. He’s big enough and rich enough to find and fund alternatives to YouTube etc. In the long run I suspect he’ll emerge stronger. And if he does, we all will.
They are very different, and can’t be dismissively compared so easily. If some kind of internet censorship is coming it won’t be anything like publishing constraints. Alex Jones is a pernicious, hate-filled idiot and has nothing to commend him.
Ian, my good man, there’s nothing dismissive in what I say. You can’t remove yourself from spirit of the age and see that in essence the web is no different to Gutenberg’s printing press.
Underneath the touch screens and little coloured icons, we are just talking about information flow and the delivery and exchange of ideas.
Freedom of speech is such an idea. If it means a thing, it means tolerating pernicious hate-filled idiots. You shouldn’t be so dismissive of that idea’s plight.
The web up until recently was Star Wars, but from here on in it’s The Empire Strikes Back. The counter revolution is underway.
Pete
The original material is easily found – that’s what the footnotes are for (Nos 134 to 137 in case you’ve forgotten). At least one of them is Norman being interviewed and it is on Youtube. I hope you will look at the sources and please don’t say that the Youtube one is a fake with a Mossad agent impersonating Norman 🙂
Yes, you read it right. ‘The US will impose new sanctions on Russia….
US to impose new sanctions on Russia over Skripal poisoning
8 Aug 2018
The US is imposing new sanctions on Russia over the poisoning of double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the UK. The measures are scheduled to go into effect on or around August 22, according to the State Department.
The State Department’s announcement comes after officials told NBC News on Wednesday that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo had signed off on a determination that once again accused Russia of poisoning Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury, UK, in March, claiming it violated international law. This comes despite there being zero evidence suggesting Moscow was behind the attack. That determination triggered new sanctions on Russia, according to NBC.
/..
https://www.rt.com/usa/435468-us-new-russia-sanctions-skripal/
The Deep State taking care to deep-six and ideas Trump has about reducing tensions with Russia before the midterms in November. After November he will awaiting impeachment in all likelihood, which, of course, brings on the nightmare of a Pence Presidency. Prepare for WWIII!
Incredible but then that news of arrest warrants had to be a hook for something. More on it at ZH.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-08/trump-hits-putin-new-sanctions-over-uk-never-gas-attack?page=2#comment-12152282
@ OAH August 8, 2018 at 20:58
Why not impeach the ‘Boobicus Orangicus’ and his side-kick, Pence (is that new pence, or old?).
There has to be grounds.
@ Sharp Ears August 8, 2018 at 20:37
Clearly, it’s time for BDS against the US.
Fruit, holidays, bourbon, Jack Daniels, Coke, Pepsi, McDonalds, Ben & Jerry’s Ice Cream, Harley Davidson, Chevy’s, Cadillac’s (!), Budweiser, Schlitz, Frigidaire, Boeings, whatever.
The US has become , not so much a failed State, as a Luciferian Regime.
And US Bases? Time for the old cry to resurface: Yankees, go home!
The British Isles may be ‘unsinkable’, but they are not immune to being rendered fatally toxic and uninhabitable.
Individuals can’t do a lot, but we can do something.
Sounds like Pompeo is getting ready for the walk off the midnight twitter plank…
Is Putin going to refuse his invitation to the White House?
He has taken s page off Mrs May’s book. Russia must promise not to do it again ( meaning admitting that they have already done it) and invite the OPCW to hold inspections (again admitting guilt). Maybe Russia should agree to the later provided the inspection should include all countries that are known to have manufactured and who have studied novichok, especially those countries that have not yet destroyed thier known supplies of chemical weapons.
I had no idea we lived in such an evil world, until the second year we went on holiday to Halkidiki, Greece to the same tourist resort with our young kids. The first time we went the main child’s entertainer was a 16 year old boy from Croatia. The kids loved him, and so did everyone. The next year for the first week he was the main child’s entertainer. Whilst we we were there, He was recalled from from the equivalent of his “A” Level summer job by the Croatian Army to fight a war…
It was not well publicised at the time.
Then in 1999, I was flying back from The Indian Ocean with my wife and kids – and I was passed the Newspapers for free on the Plane.
Us British and Americans – were now Bombing The SH1T out of Yugoslavia, concentrating more bombs than were used on Germany in WWII on Serbia.
My first (nearly) wife’s parents came from Serbia…and I really loved her and her family. They were just so nice to me .
Now My Country Was Bombing The SHIT out of their COUNTRY.
I still didn’t quite realise, but was very suspicious on Day One in September 2001, but wasn’t completely convinced until nearly 18 months after that date, which none of us are allowed to discuss on here, cose it hurts your cognitive dissonance…
Poor You.
You Can’t Face The Truth
You actually don’t think our British and American Governments can be so EVIL
Despite All The Evidence Staring You in Your Face.
Tony
I’m not sure what all the fuss is about here. Anybody is entitled to wear a burqa, and Boris supports that (as do I). The issue seems to be that nobody is allowed to observe that it looks like a letterbox (which it does).
So on the one hand we have a multicultural society so tolerant that you can bring along all manner of backward practices and display them publicly as a statement of your complete separation from and rejection of the society that has adopted you and its cultural norms, and that’s not only absolutely fine but actually something worth celebrating, and on the other hand we have a multicultural society so intolerant that you cannot comment on them without comitting some kind of hate crime.
Now there are people calling for Johnson to be removed from the Conservative Party for stating an observable truth. They would like to see him prosecuted for commiting a hate crime.
you have predictably completely missed the point re who Boris is targeting and encouraging, for entirely his own benefit. Even Tories can see it and deplore his naked ambition and dog whistling to the alt right Tommy Robinson brigade. Classic Boris trying to have his cake and eat it, while pretending he is merely being hilarious. Try the same routine with orthodox Jews, their weird headgear and call them bank robbers, and see how liberal you are judged.
Try wearing a Burka in the Netherlands, France, Denmark or Bulgaria and you will have broken the law.
Presumably these countries are all full of alt right racists. Just as well the UK is leaving the EU, after all who would want to be associated with such people.
Maybe the British should invade one or more of these countries in order to stop the racists in their tracks. Or, could it be that you don’t ever intend paying any personal price for your virtue.
@ Loony August 8, 2018 at 22:28
Why don’t we nuke ’em? Oh, I forgot, we might hit Florida by mistake (every cloud has a silver lining!).
I’m sure that just like in Mayfair where there are extremely rich Arabian ladies in full garb, Paris and most places with high end shopping have no objection.
Many hirsuite men, especially the peak bearded hipsters, sometimes look a bit ‘postboxish’.
Of course with the air pollution and airborne germ risks many people in the world are donning face masks. Never mind the ubiquitous baseball type caps, hey come the autumn i’m in a perma beany and scarfs till the following spring!
So along with religious reasons (nuns? Priests? Sikhs?), cultural reasons (sari’s? Goths? shyness?), medical reasons (light sensitivity? Airborne skin allergy) and other reasons; they (we) all can control our own public appearance. But the burkah women are not allowed the same choice!
I do agree that within certain environments for good communication and for medical and identification purposes, it is difficult if you can’t see the mouth and expression (i have some deaf friends) – but that isn’t the same as a public space.
It just seems to be another diversion from the major issues that are being ignored.
Loony
Surely you are intelligent enough to know the difference between passing a law and publicly making fun of people. At least Canada has taken the right approach with the doubt of all backwardness irrespective of the economic consequences. I have not yet heard a Tory politician say anything but nice things about Saudi Arabia. Maybe while we are at it you should also tell us what line your beloved Bannon would take.
“Loony
Surely you are intelligent enough……”
Sorry, you lost me after that.
Some might call this post anti-semitic.
Some might call anything anti-Semitic.
Kippah looks like a saucer, orthodox J.ws look like penguins. So what? Walking around unseen in a bin bag with no public identity or visible expression *is* ridiculous. You might as well not exist.
As for Boris’ motives, I would agree he knows what he’s doing and he’s got the media and the left in a complete meltdown over something he said that 95% of people would agree with anyway. Nothing to do with your “alt-right” nonsense that barely exists in this country. More like lots of positive attention for Boris with the media attacking him and everybody at home saying “But he’s right!”. Way to troll the libs. They think everybody else thinks like them.
Well, he’s got you hook, line and sinker. lol
Nobody cares what your opinions about items of clothing are. Boris is different, simply because of the self-seeking narcissism which is given a platform by numerous newspapers and craven supporters. Plus, he knows exactly what he is doing and who he is encouraging. He could care less about what people wear on their head, but he could care about what it communicates in its insidious way to the right wing neanderthals, who will recognise exactly what he is endorsing. While he pretends to be liberal and in favour of free speech. It’s got Bannon and Trump written all over it.
@ Anon1 August 8, 2018 at 22:35
I think Boris and other ‘High Falluters’ would look much better in burqas than in Nazi Uniforms, their standard ‘off duty’ garb.
Quite.
@ Anon1 August 8, 2018 at 22:01
Your spot on there, for a change! I think you would look really cute in a burqa!
This was last year’s holiday for the Johnsons.
‘Some esteemed visitors…
This year we organised a family holiday for the British Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson. Mr Johnson and family rented a gulet, a wooden sailing boat designed for leisurely cruising along the Turkish Riviera. They visited many secluded bays and islands, some of which are only accessible by water.
At the end of the trip the Johnsons told Ahmet Guler, Director of Gulet Escapes (picture left with Mr Johnson), that they saw many amazing places, ate delicious food and had an absolutely relaxing holiday. Mr Johnson thanked Ahmet for organising the trip adding everything had gone like clockwork. They clearly experienced excellent Turkish hospitality.
We would like to thank the Johnsons, who were very humble with the requests and very polite, which made it a pleasure to organise this holiday.
http://www.guletescapes.com/reviews/
How about the humility and the politeness? 🙂
Wonder where they are this year.
My wife and I got back from this Festival in Kent on Monday., and we are only just recovering.
It was just so incredibly hot, and there was rather a long walk from the car park to the campsite, to the stages and back to our tent that nearly gave us both heart attacks putting the tent up
We got the lot – heatstroke, fading away, about to feint.
But we, even despite the heat, got to know our neighbours, who were nice and friendly, and asked if we needed anything.
A couple of them, camped in their little tent, as if they had come on the train. We weren’t far from the waterpoint, but otherwise they had nothing heavy. We had nowt compared to what they had got, so, I just kept going back to the car, to get more beer and cider. The bar was even further away. They were just so nice, that I gave them a few beers.
I think they may have been rock stars roughing it with us oiks until the cab came to take them to the hotel.
Scottish and Aussie.
Anyhow, it was a great festival….even if I did lose 7 pounds, and cure my arthritis, and not quite have a heart attack.. I feel fit now..
The only thing that saved me, (and others) was 2.5 litre pump action water bottle. Far better than a water pistol.
Instant showers from fine spray to full blast.
The Bands were Brilliant, and The Gardens Totally Beautiful
Tony
This MP has publicly supported Johnson today.
Ben Bradley, MP Mansfield.
‘Bradley resigned a day after Boris Johnson made his shock departure from Cabinet. Mr Bradley said the Brexit plan agreed by the Cabinet at Chequers would damage the UK’s opportunities to develop global trade.
Blasting the policy in his resignation letter, Mr Bradley said: “Being tied to EU regulations and the EU tying our hands when seeking to make new trade agreements will be the worst of all worlds.”If we do not deliver Brexit in spirit as well as in name, then we are handing Jeremy Corbyn the keys to Number 10.”
Mr Bradley’s resignation was announced less than an hour before the PM was due to face the press alongside German Chancellor Angela Merkel at an international summit in London.’
As has Andrew Bridgen.
In full: Andrew Bridgen’s stinging no-confidence letter blasts Theresa May’s Brexit plan
The Leicestershire MP wants to trigger a leadership contest in his party :: He attacks PM in leaked 1922 letter
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/full-andrew-bridgens-stinging-no-1770043
It would appear that it’s more about Brexit than anything else.
If someone wishes to go on a retreat from society that is fine if they can afford it; 40 day retreat is a good idea. On a retreat they are effectively face covering guarding their interaction and thoughts. Back in society though they probably need to interact. Of course it is difficult to interact and not be swayed by others or by one’s own weaknesses and so some sort of remembrance might be required from time to time. That is also ok, but otherwise is it necessary. If it is just a badge why bother. Why bother also to wear any religious badge: I never get this. If the wearing of some item of religious clothing brings about sone genuine change in one’s thinking and behaviour then it may be productive (or counter productive), but if it is a symbol of status or a rule or a habit or a protest or a marker then what is religious about that?
Anyway face covering is no big deal and we are not Denmark. It looks as if BJ may have dog whistled, but if so why is the media feeding that, which it clearly is? Presumably because the media is excited about tension in the Tory party and a possible leadership challenge emerging in the run up to a no deal Brexit and / or it wants to stick it to Boris just as it is sticking it to Corbyn.
@fwl
I think your questions about why the media would back Boris in his dog-whistling are extremely naive.
Maybe I am . Is it (a) because they, the media, wish to discredit Boris and serve his political opponents preventing him from challenging May, or (b) because they wish to assist Boris and believe that his dog whistle may increase his support through a wider dissemination such that Tory MPs will select him whether they want to or not, or (c) they are simply outraged by the contents of the statement, or (d) they like the contents and wish to fan the flames of anti-Islamic prejudice, or (e) they think its a story with legs because they see in it a power struggle and so follow it accordingly.
One can see the ire of Steve Bannon in Boring Johnsons excrements. Rees mug and Mike the Gov. Are fully behind this course towards fascist Britannia.
Enjoy the ride with bibi and the AfD, Hungary, Saudi wahabia( gone nuclear thanks to Bibi, hurray) and the divided united states of sustainable warmongering, bless.
As long as we dont have to talk of real problems like a runaway climate scenario.
Child killets the lot of them. Anybody wanting to start a major war should be taken out by their own sword
Bon noit.
SaudiArabia armed with nuclear weapons via z..nistan/the divided united states of ubsusyaina le warmongering???1
Wakey, these middle eastern kipp yong alis should be stopped. Sign the NNPT or be sanctioned.
Stop contact with all Friends of Israhell NOW! How dare they undermine an existing global accord?
I am quite a long term and influential Guardian commentator, Cesca01 and know even when they delete my reasoned comments, which aren’t mainstream, many journalists think they’re wrong but the G has to cave in to their Corporate sponsors.
It would be good to sponsor them, if they showed some indication of being truthful, no chance of moolah from me til they do and i’m generous to independent, quality sites like this one. But even the G can be made to made to feel guilty, even tho they deleted it when i think many were saying it should be a pick: “Lovely article Matt, wish you were still the spokesperson for JC, he needs ppl like you. It’s a tough one for JC, totally agree with much of what you say but he is not at fault whatsoever in this current crisis. Well, it cld be said he’s making the issue worse by trying to appease the shower creating the probs, they’re getting worse not better.
There’s nothing he can do with the usual suspects in Labour, only his total capitulation will stop them. They’ll jump on any MSM bandwagon which will cause him shit, then you have the less savoury elements of the Jewish community, such as the Board of Deputies, who are prob pushing the Israeli Govts agenda as hard as they can.
What worries me nearly more than the harm all this is doing to JC, is the potential damage it could cause to ordinary Jewish ppl. AS has been seriously cheapened in my view, it does feel like if you so much as look at a more extreme Jewish person, they’ll accuse you of AS. This can only trivialise what is a disgusting hate crime and cld possibly stir up anger against ordinary Jewish ppl. Very scary times.”
Posted Tues, interesting that today a real issue, Islamophobia seems to be an issue
This Counterpunch article sums up the UK Labour antisemitism row rather nicely.
Essentially it says an alliance of Zionists and the B’liarite wing of the Labour party are trying to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn.
Aren’t they clever working that one out?
Kudos to Peter for finding this great article: Reply ↓
Peter Close
August 7, 2018 at 17:41
Well, yes! An article in Haaretz a few days ago was headlined: ‘Someday Israel’s Holocaust credit line will run out’ and argued, powerfully and passionately, that that day couldn’t come too soon. It would certainly be denounced as antisemitic here, but positive BTL comments outnumbered the negative ones by better than 3 to 1. If people have trouble accessing it, I can try to post a plain text version here.
Reply ↓
Cesca
August 8, 2018 at 03:03
Cheers for drawing my attention to that great article Peter, for those who can’t access Haaretz, it can be read here: https://tech2.org/israel/israels-holocaust-credit-line-is-running-out-israel-news/
All that’s good =)
Cesca
I find it curious that you regard yourself as influential. I never read the Guardian because it never allows free comment. Are you measuring influence by degree of Guardian acceptability? AS Craig so rightly points out there is an ubiquity of evil in places that serve corporate, neo-colonial war-mongering evil. I don’t frequent places that foster that ubiquity. There are plenty of other places to go.
In my house I notice that all the crinny crannies that used to be occupies by normal spiders have been taken over in the last week by spindly near-invisible spiders, which maybe came with me from where I was working.
All the crinny-crannies of truthful comment are now occupied by butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths Zionist Tories of red and blue political hue. not a word of truth emanates from their lying orifices.
How can it be that those innocent looking near-invisible Zionist neo-colonial spiders could possible be so aggressive, when they look so innocent? Those accusers of anti-Semitism do seem to be aggressively occupying the spectrum of crinny-crannies once occupied by spiders of educated thought. Should I be worrying about this? What about eggs? I’m not sure I want spiders who consider themselves smugly as influential occupying the geographical; space of my mind.
I never used to squash spiders, just release them, but I’m starting to think about outing you as a troll before you lay your eggs among my cups and saucers. By definition, anybody who can comment in the Guardian is off-topic here.
Caveat emptor when buying Tory tripe from head-in-the-door mop salesmen selling shoes.
As to Boris’s innocuous burqa intervention, who’s he to criticise anyone’s appearance? He looks like a mop with one of those metal probosces sticking out half way down the handle. He has spent the last ten years supporting Islamist terror in Syria all of their wives dressed in black bin bags. What a nasty hypocrite the old joker has turned out to be.
Please don’t insult me by comparisons Giyane, i like thought and analysis.
Can’t say anything worth a further reply
I went to Israhel, and I really liked it. They even had a hard rock cafe – like in London, or any such place in the world…except I wasn’t in Israhel, I was in Egypt – but The Is rael1 diving instructors were Brilliant. Some of them might have been Egyptians. I couldn’t tell the difference…but I could underwater. The Red Sea is Awesome for divers and snorkellers. In some respects nearly as good as some parts of the Indian Ocean…more accessible – and only a relatively short flight away from London where we live.
We were in Sharm El-Sheikh and had to go through airport type security just to get in the front door from the road, On the beach we can and did walk for miles, whilst the kids were diving..
We met these Berbers – an hour’s walk past the security zone, and my wife in her bikini and blue veil over her shoulders – wanted a camel ride on the back of a camel and got one.
The Berbers asked for the equivalent of about £20 in Egyptian Money – for a 5 minute ride..(Yes she is beautiful, slim and blonde, but she is my wife)
I said I’m not paying that – keep her…and kept on walking. They all had mobile phones. We didn’t.
I got her back for £3 in Egyptian money, with massive respect. We had met The Berbers and Camels before in Morocco and Tunisia. They are a lot like Scousers,
“The Bangles Walk Like An Egyptian”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWP-AsG5DRk
Tony
@ Tony_0pmoc August 9, 2018 at 01:17
It was off Sharm El-Sheikh that the USS Liberty was mercilessly hammered by the US’s ‘ME Friends’ in 1967.
I wonder how many Egyptians know (or care) that their countrymen were just three minutes from being nuked in 1967, in ‘retaliation’ for the attack on the Liberty (which obviously they were not responsible for); the only things that saved them was the Liberty refused to sink, and they got off an all-points SOS.