The Ubiquity of Evil 4215


My world view changed forever when, after 20 years in the Foreign Office, I saw colleagues I knew and liked go along with Britain’s complicity in the most terrible tortures, as detailed stunningly in the recent Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee Report. They also went along with keeping the policy secret, deliberately disregarding all normal record taking procedures, to the extent that the Committee noted:

131. We note that we have not seen the minutes of these meetings either: this causes us great concern. Policy discussions on such an important issue should have been minuted. We support Mr Murray’s own conclusion that were it not for his actions these matters may never have come to light.

The people doing these things were not ordinarily bad people; they were just trying to keep their jobs, comforting themselves with the thought that they were only civil servants obeying orders. Many were also actuated by the nasty “patriotism” that grips in time of war, as we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Almost nobody in the FCO stood up against the torture or against the illegal war – Elizabeth Wilmshurst, Carne Ross and I were the only ones to leave over it.

I then had the still more mortifying experience of the Foreign Office seeking to punish my dissent by bringing a series of accusations of gross misconduct – some of them criminal – against me. The people bringing the accusations knew full well they were false. The people investigating them knew they were false from about day 2. But I was put through a hellish six months of trial by media before being acquitted on all the original counts (found guilty of revealing the charges, whose existence was an official secret!). The people who did this to me were people I knew.

I had served as First Secretary in the British Embassy in Poland, and bumped up startlingly against the history of the Holocaust in that time, including through involvement with organising the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. What had struck me most forcibly was the sheer scale of the Holocaust operation, the tens of thousands of people who had been complicit in administering it. I could never understand how that could happen – until I saw ordinary, decent people in the FCO facilitate extraordinary rendition and torture. Then I understood, for the first time, the banality of evil or, perhaps more precisely, the ubiquity of evil. Of course, I am not comparing the scale of what happened to the Holocaust – but evil can operate on different scales.

I believe I see it again today. I do not believe that the majority of journalists in the BBC, who pump out a continual stream of “Corbyn is an anti-semite” propaganda, believe in their hearts that Corbyn is a racist at all. They are just doing their job, which is to help the BBC avert the prospect of a radical government in the UK threatening the massive wealth share of the global elite. They would argue that they are just reporting what others say; but it is of course the selection of what they report and how they report it which reflect their agenda.

The truth, of which I am certain, is this. If there genuinely was the claimed existential threat to Jews in Britain, of the type which engulfed Europe’s Jews in the 1930’s, Jeremy Corbyn, Billy Bragg, Roger Waters and I may humbly add myself would be among the few who would die alongside them on the barricades, resisting. Yet these are today loudly called “anti-semites” for supporting the right to oppose the oppression of the Palestinians. The journalists currently promoting those accusations, if it came to the crunch, would be polishing state propaganda and the civil servants writing railway dockets. That is how it works. I have seen it. Close up.


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4,215 thoughts on “The Ubiquity of Evil

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  • Republicofscotland

    So the former EDL founder and ex – leader and PEDIGA supporter, Tommy Robinson has been freed on bail.

    No doubt this will give Tomy’s followers the impetus to begin ranting and raving again about non-whites living in not just Britain but Europe. I’m sure Geert Wilders who called for Tommy’s release, will be another one who’s pleased that a fellow thinker of the same xenophobic persuasion is now liberated, birds of a feather and all that.

    All that hatred should channeled into doing something positive, such as supporting Julian Assange in his hour of need.

    • Antonyl

      Wilders xenophobic? His mother was half Indonesian, his wife is Hungarian. No he is just against people who are trying to murder him and they happen to be 95% Islamists & ~5% extreme left wingers – the real haters.

    • Komodo

      Not sure I can see Robinson’s sympathisers (and at least in the matter of poorly-policed Asian grooming gangs, I am one) weighing in to extricate Assange from the hole he has dug himself into. But I can dream.

    • Michael McNulty

      Maybe the elite want to crush Corbyn’s socialism in the hope that in the political vacuum for working class representation they’ll turn to the far right instead. The elite will have no problem with the rise of the far right as the alternative to popular leftist socialism. And the far right will demand things the elite also want, so they can respond to that as though it’s the will of the people and “the new reality”.

      If they can’t remove Corbyn with this anti-semitic drive they’ll next turn to outright lies and forged evidence. But if that fails there could be some kind of coup while MPs are away, and before elections can be held Corbyn may be under arrest. The next three months could be political dynamite, especially if Israel and a dying US empire are calling the shots. It happens in South America, it can happen here.

      Corbyn has already been called an existential threat by many J.ws so the security of Israel, meaning Britain’s national security, could be the excuse they use. The west has shifted too far to the right these past forty years to call such things impossible.

      The elite’s determination to avoid socialism at a time neoliberalism is dying and a hard shift right means almost anything is possible.

      • wonky

        This. Not maybe. This was exactly Merkel’s playbook, when she secretly had her “Verfassungschutz” fund Pegida, aided by the German and even international mass media presstitutes with full blown coverage of the “phenomenon”, which then of course translated into the success of the new far right neoliberalcon AFD party. No trick is too dirty, especially when the opponent’s entire program is to finally put an end to the dirty tricks.

        • FranzB

          Nonsense – any evidence for this? I thought not.

          By how much did the Bundesamt fuer Verfassungsschutz fund Pegida?

          • wonky

            Not the Bundesamt maybe, but certainly the Landesamt Sachsen at a time when the CDU ran things over there.
            Seek and ye shall find my freund. How much? That’s a question for that scoundrel Bachmann.

  • Stu

    As Craig alludes to above these smears are not actually about Israel or Palestine or Jews. The fate of the Palestinian people will be decided by the Palestinian people not by the UK government, the Labour Party, British media or British voters.

    Anti Semitism is the smear which has stuck. First they believed that Corbyn’s personality and appearance would put off voters, it turned out he’s likeable. Socialist policies were supposed to deter voters, it turned out they were popular. Associations with unpopular groups were supposed to put voters off, it turned out voters were more concerned with their families and futures. Anti Semitism has been more successful because it has allowed privileged, wealthy people very close to power to use discourse techniques normally employed by the weak and oppressed. No one in a prominent position on the left is able to call this smear campaign out for what it is.

    The intention of the smears is to prevent a government which will create a fairer economic system for British people and which will set an example for people all over the world.

    • skyblaze

      i would say the anti semetism smears are a dead end and will go away shortly…the tactic is relying on stuff which people do not particularly care about apart from really old people harping back to world war 2

      • Dave

        If someone says they’re having a hard time, and go on and on about it, you may choose to humour them and commiserate, but when they go on and on and on about it, and they’re better off than you, you know you are dealing with people you would much rather avoid, except they insist on complaining to you and are offended if you don’t take them seriously which feeds an offensive paranoia.

    • Republicofscotland

      “Corbyn fans can see him engage with Yanis Varoufakis at the Edinburgh Book Festival this month:”

      Yes it might be worth a visit as such events in the future regarding EU citizens might not happen. The Edinburgh Festival could be a lot less interesting after Brexit if the press are to be believed, and enjoy the last European Championships in Glasgow whilst you’re there.

      • Komodo

        It’s OK, ROS. Despite everything, Varoufakis is FOR the (radically reformed) EU. So you can go.

  • Jayne Venables

    There is something soothing about the terrible truth of all you express here, Craig. Truth sits comfortably. It rests in the deepest centre of our human hearts.

    So we continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the truth together. We swallow our rage and focus its force into exposing lies and supporting those who dare to speak truth.

    Miles Goslett is one such person. He led the Dr Kelly investigation with flair, dogged determination, nous and courage. His book ‘An Inconvenient Death. How the establishment covered up the David Kelly affair’ is forensic in the detail, riveting & revealing. (He also broke the Savile scandal, Kids Co story, and won Scoop of the Year four times.)

    If folk live near enough to join us next Wednesday 8th August at 7pm in York Waterstones, Miles will give a Talk, with QnAs and book signing.

    Book £3 Tickets early ( it helps is plan and there are only 50 places)

    https://www.waterstones.com/events/the-mysterious-death-of-dr-david-kelly-an-evening-with-author-miles-goslett/york

    Also Yarm Waterstones Tuesday 7th August at 6.30pm

    https://www.waterstones.com/events/an-evening-talk-with-miles-goslett/yarm

    • Robyn

      I have just finished Miles Goslett’s book – both rivetting and essential. IMHO, the case that there was a cover-up is irrefutable.

      • Jayne Venables

        You may be interested to know that we sold out at both Yarm and York Waterstones. York had to turn folk away during the day leading to Miles’ talk. Wonderful audiences at both. Many had read the book; many bought copies with their tickets and on the evening.
        QnAs were searching. Scene of Crime interest was revealing. Miles will hopefully do more book talks. People can help by ordering tickets early (it was saddening to have to turn people away; if we can see demand is high early enough we can try to expand on the venue) and by sending their book reviews to Waterstones and elsewhere. Such support is precious and effective.

  • Gary Weglarz

    My experience totally resonates with Mr. Murry’s. I’ve traveled to three different Central American war zones as a human rights observer, returning to the U.S. to give public talks about the torture, murder and mayhem that both “was” and “is” U.S. policy. Few in the public were interested in attending such presentations, and in the end those that did were faced with either believing the first person reporting I provided and testimony of victims, or believing the corporate news media’s dismissal of the horror show created U.S. low intensity warfare policies. In the end believing and siding with “victims” of our violence entails a moral question and a moral decision – “how will I respond to this information?”

    Most Americans I know, even the most humane, seem psychologically unable to face reality when it means facing and engaging this moral dilemma. I no longer wonder how earlier “good Christian” American settlers could have slaughtered Native Americans and stole their land. Such moral cowardice characterizes the West historically. “The white man’s BURDEN” has of course NEVER been carried by “white men,” but by the colonized and oppressed whose exploitation fuels and funds Western lifestyles. There is no possibility for a humane society if we the populace lack the courage and moral integrity to simply face the “reality” of our government’s actions and as tax payers our complicity in them. Most in the U.S. choose to live in a dream world instead.

    • snickid

      “In the end believing and siding with “victims” of our violence entails a moral question and a moral decision – “how will I respond to this information?”
      Most Americans I know, even the most humane, seem psychologically unable to face reality when it means facing and engaging this moral dilemma. I no longer wonder how earlier “good Christian” American settlers could have slaughtered Native Americans and stole their land. Such moral cowardice characterizes the West historically. ”

      WELL WORTH PONDERING.

    • J

      If acknowledged, it would require a change in behaviour. The good news for moral cowards is that the anticipation of fundamental change is always far worse than change itself, perhaps we’re just culturally programmed to be afraid of it. In any case, dive in, the water is cold and refreshing.

      Upton Sinclair’s admonition is forever pertinent: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

      • Phil Espin

        J, And Craig and his 2 fellow whistleblowers who resigned over the torture issue is the perfect example of how few can exhibit the level of moral courage to confound Upton Sunclair’s Truism.

    • charming

      To paraphrase Moses Marx – if you exploit people it follows, in justification, that you must be smarter, stronger, blessed and more entitled. I am finding the most sheepish and annoying faux naive phrase of the century to be ‘we’ve been so lucky’. So English.

    • Andyoldlabour

      @Gary
      Gary could you tell me, if in the run up to the invasion of Iraq, were there massive demonstrations against the war as we had in England and Europe? The only reason I ask, is because having been to the US a few times, I have noticed that there seems to be a kind of unquestioning patriotism – flags, military, singing the anthem etc.
      Military spending/budget is off the scale in the US, larger than the next seven countries combined, and there are US military bases in more than seventy countries around the World.
      I see the US today as the equivalent of Britain back in the 18th and 19th centuries, and it is fair to say that the US has been constantly at war for nearly eighty years.

      • Gary Weglarz

        Andyoldlabour – There were actually very large demonstrations for many weeks before the Iraq war. I was living in a small town (35,000 people) in the rural state of Montana in the American west at the time, and we held weekly demonstrations on the streets for many months before the war. What is very interesting about the period since is that the same people who marched against what was quite obviously a contrived war by the Bush administration on Iraq, suddenly grew silent as Obama spent 8 years continuing the Bush wars and expanding them the point he was bombing 7 Muslim nations as he left office.

        In other words, Americans seem caught up the nonsense of believing our two political parties offer some alternative to one another when it comes to imperial mayhem. They do not. The reality is that the Democratic party simply differentiates itself from the Republican party by embracing identity politics themes, i.e. liberals feel better voting Democrat because the party voices support for gay and transgender rights (certainly a very worthy thing no doubt). But this factor as the only “difference” between the parties means the “choice” Americans are left with when voting becomes this: “would you like your illegal invasions, illegal immoral regime change by jihadist head choppers, illegal unethical drone murders, economic sanctions, and foreign election rigging – ‘with’ or ‘without’ gender specific bathrooms at home?” That in a nutshell is “American democracy,” and make no doubt, this is the ONLY FORM OF “DEMOCRACY” the U.S. is interested in seeing flower anywhere on the planet. Democracy only in name.

        You are quite right about the mindless patriotism of Americans. I do not see even a glimmer of consciousness in the American public at this point to suggest they have the faintest clue about what is actually happening on planet earth. We are without doubt the most propagandized brainwashed society on earth, and sadly the notion that there is anything resembling a “progressive” of “left” movement in America is simply laughable. The difference I see with the comparison to the former British empire, is that at least Britain acknowledge the reality of empire. Americans instead entertain the pathological self-delusion that we are god’s gift to the planet and our bombs are just our way of showing our boundless love for the world’s poor.

        We are a very sick society at this point – and a heavily armed one to boot. My wife and I live in southern California and have been serenaded to sleep for weeks with the sound of heavy artillery shells exploding at the Marine base many miles away. In explaining the month long bombardment a local military representative explained that these practice shellings are “saving lives” abroad. In U.S. military ‘newspeak’ the phrase “saving lives” must surely translate to “blowing up Muslim civilians who pose no threat to us whatsover,” because our jihadist buddies are too precious to kill since we use them for regime change once we relabel them “moderates.” In answer to your question about American society – we have become not only less informed, but massively misinformed, and are now bat-shit crazy to boot.

    • Shatnersrug

      Gary, I’ve come to the conclusion that Americans secretly know what their governments are up to and they condone it. Most of them know the middle eastern wars are to keep their cars running when Madeline Albright said 500000 child deaths in Iraq were worth it I think the public secretly agree.

      • Andyoldlabour

        @Shatnersrug,
        I would have to agree with that. Whether it is a Republican or Democrat in office, the wars keep happening, and there is no sense of outrage – last shown mainly by students during the Vietnam war.

      • Gary Weglarz

        Shatnersrug – I think your observation that American’s “secretly know” is accurate, but that it’s more complex in a rather twisted psychological way. Most Americans would be truly aghast if they knew the extend and details of the mayhem committed daily in their name decade after decade around the world. Most Americans get around this cognitive dissonance problem by simply ensuring they “don’t know.” That is they get their news from corporations or the public broadcasting which is just as bad. Even many formerly “progressive” news sites have become engaged in the Russiagate nonsense and in shilling for regime change in Syria, ignoring Yemen, etc. Unless one works very hard at finding alternative media, vetting it for honesty, and then staying current with world events, one ends up as an American both uninformed and misinformed by consuming media.

        No doubt this makes life much easier morally than having to fall asleep knowing you are paying for the murder of Yemeni children tonight. So while I think Americans “suspect” there is more to the story then they are told by their leaders and news media – by not searching for the truth themselves, they live with a certain unease and ennui – thus we narcotize ourselves with opiods at record breaking levels to kill the pain of this discomfort, yet we never ever face the reality that we are a massive modern empire with all the blood and amoral mayhem that entails.

        Amazing how the human mind works. Americans didn’t bat a collective eye at Madeline Albright’s a half a million dead Iraqi children are ‘worth it’ comments – yet we can be quickly mobilized to want to overthrow Assad by showing us a couple of photos of children with smudged faces set up by and photo-oped by those well paid White Helmet clowns of imperialism. Rationality is not part of this picture I’m afraid. There is some deep psychological disturbance at work to somehow rationalize killing a half a million children, but at the same time we are so very very concerned about these several children we are told are suffering (always at the hands of the enemy our leaders tell us we must overthrow). This sort of a psychological balancing act is the stuff of madness – no doubt.

  • Sharp Ears

    In addition to the salaries, expenses et al for 650 MPs, we the idiot taxpayers are paying for their numerous secretarial staff and parliamentary assistants. These are just a few of the details that stuck out on the Register Of Interests Of Members’ Secretaries And Research Assistants [as at 11 July 2018. It is split into six sections, alphabetically by MP’s name. The first is on
    https://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/standards-and-financial-interests/parliamentary-commissioner-for-standards/registers-of-interests/register-of-members-secretaries-and-research-assistants/

    RICHARD BACON
    Kasra Aarabi – Analyst, Tony Blair Institute for Global Change (think tank).

    STEVE DOUBLE
    Anne Double – Secretary, Good News Crusade (religious charity). Overseas Visits: 8-13 April 2018 to Israel on a fact finding mission. Travel within the country and hospitality paid for by Conservative Friends of Israel and the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs

    SAJID JAVID
    Sophie Bolsover
    Parliamentary Manager, The Henry Jackson Society (foreign affairs think tank).https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmsecret/sponsor-03.htm

    JOHN MANN
    Alexandra Routledge
    Overseas Visits: 16-21 March 2018, to Jerusalem to attend a conference. Accommodation, travel and ground costs were met by Antisemitism Policy Trust.
    Danny Stone Director, Antisemitism Policy Trust (anti-racism charity).

    SHERYL MURRAY
    Robert Davidson – 8-13 April 2018 to Israel accompanying Sheryll Murray MP. Accommodation, travel and hospitality paid for by Conservative Friends of Israel and Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. (In addition to visits to Gibraltar,Turkey and Armenia.)

    NEIL PARISH
    Susan Parish – Overseas Visits: 8-13 April 2018 to Israel accompanying Neil Parish MP. Accommodation, travel and hospitality paid for by Conservative Friends of Israel and Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. (Notice that it’s the same jolly as Robert Davidson above!)

    ANDREW PERCY –
    James Gurd – Political Director, Conservative Friends of Israel (political research).
    Kassim Qureshi – Overseas Visits: 8-13 April 2018 to Israel on a fact finding mission. Travel within the country and hospitality paid for by Conservative Friends of Israel and the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs

    JACOB REES-MOGG
    Fiona Oldfield-Hodge – Personal Assistant, Somerset Capital Management (investment).

    RACHEL REEVES
    Jonathan Rutherford – Political Advisor, Labour Together (campaign funding group). Political Adviser to Chuka Umunna MP.

    KEITH SIMPSON
    Iain Dale – Broadcaster, LBC Radio. Managing Director, Biteback Publishing. Commentator for Sky News. Columnist for Attitude magazine, ConservativeHome.com.

    • Kay

      Saw someone refer to think tanks as propaganda tanks but, w.r.t. the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, I’m wondering if stink tank might be closer to the mark.

      Are they able to advise on how to best frame public execution for a western audience, do you suppose?

      • snickid

        “the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, I’m wondering if stink tank might be closer to the mark”

        I believe its official name is The Tony Blair Bad Faith Foundation.

        • Komodo

          No, that’s closed. It’s the Tony Blair Institute for Tony Blair now, and no longer a charity.

    • Sharp Ears

      Quite so Kay.

      In addition to that register, there is another for journalists accredited to the HoC. There must be a large bureaucracy at work issuing passes and keeping the register. Do those who answer ‘None’ on these parliamentary registers ever get challenged or questioned as to the veracity of their declarations? Probably not.

      Do look at the lengthy entries for Andrew Neil and Tim Shipman.

      Register of Journalists’ Interests [as at 11 July 2018]
      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmjournl/contents.htm

      There are 155 uses of the ‘word’ BBC. 59 for Sky News. 36 for ITV. 25 for Guardian. 1 for J.wish Chronicle. 31 for Times – (inc theTimes, Financial Times, Sunday Times. NY Times. Irish Times).

      Can’t see RT or Al Jazeera in the list!

      • Kay

        Brilliant info, Sharp Ears, had to stifle a laugh when Neil’s entry hoved into view!

        And, yes, far more nones than seems credible, but who’s counting =)

  • John Stothard

    The psychology of morality failure is interesting. Sometimes it can simply be reduced to class solidarity. HRH Prince Charles and Archbishop Carey chose to believe the abusive Bishop and thus to dismiss the abused as liars – adding to their abuse. They were only working class and had no power in the social order. But notice in the ensuing mea culpas of Windsor and Carey how they claim to be the real victims -“we were led up the garden path by this monstrous individual”.

  • David Marchesi

    Belonging to an educational/cultural tradition which included the belief that all are capable of sin (because of our “original sin”) I have found it disheartening to see, as time goes by, that the marketing of a kind of “manichaeism” is succeeding to bamboozle the public. It is, of course, based on a kind of infantile racism , a somewhat dumbed-down version (!!) of Nazism , one could say, “racism with a human face” .All should read Christopher Browning’s “Ordinary Men”, for starters, and learn humility.

    • Hatuey

      You use too many big words, particularly ones ending in ism. One minute Manichaeism is the problem, the next nazism, and then it’s infantile racism. Then you finish by ordering us to read some book and instruct us to learn humility. On a certain level it’s very humorous.

      Take my advice here, I’m trying to help you out. Take a week off from typing this stuff. Try typing the polar opposite of what you actually think — or think you think — and win some perspective.

      Carry on like this and everybody will hate you, even the people that ought to be inclined to agree with you.

  • Sharp Ears

    The Salisbury nonsense is still ongoing. On BBC South Today ‘news’ just now – ‘the Wiltshire air ambulance is out of commission until work to decontaminate it following its use when Dawn Sturgess was taken ill is completed’.

  • Abe Zapruder

    Was it a plot to kill putin with a Porton Down made poison hidden in a perfume? When was Yulia booked to return? The catering staff at the VIP box at the World Cup need to be quizzed. The FSB appears to have gotten wind of the plot via a mole and turned the tables on the Skripals.
    Only this would explain the extraordinary lengths a PM,FS,DS and MI5 head have gone, at the risk of considerable public ridicule, to blow over and bury the matter. Any whistleblower would also find himself in a zipped holdall having committed suicide I am afraid, so no hope of any truth emerging there.

    • Michael McNulty

      People seem to think they can’t be Nazis because they don’t wear black uniforms and jackboots, not realizing that to gain power modern Nazis know to wear quality suits and hand-made shoes. When they get to power, then come the black uniforms and jackboots.

      • Ishmael

        Naa, it’s a dead give away, they keep the shoes & white shirt on nowadays.

        This is the accepted respected uniform of today.

      • Deb O'Nair

        Hitler and the Nazis were very popular amongst the aristocracy and elites during the 30s, when WW2 kicked off they went low key and their previous public utterances in support of the aforesaid were flushed down the memory hole. Today many of the descendants of these people maintain their positions within the establishment, and many of them still hold the exact same ‘family values’ that have been handed down from one generation to the next; arrogance, self-righteousness, over-developed sense of entitlement, feelings of superiority over others etc. Allied with their overt propensity to adopt the same political tactics as the Nazis it’s hard not to accept that they are their ideological equivalents, granted they may not be herding people into gas chambers but their value of the lives of millions of others is no less brutal.

        • nevermind

          Jack jack jack, the nast Nazis , blah judder scank… nothing nasty we have ever done, haven’t we Mr. Curchill? What off gassing Armenians with Mustard Gas? What off the SA Boor conentration camps.?

          It saddens.me when thinking people fall into stereotypes, ignoring the mistakes and abuses done by their own country, for the sake of a greater global evil.

          Yawn

    • Ishmael

      Peterson actually seem to marry the goal of equality, or equalling power relations, as “the left” wanting to be just another totalitarian force. like the corporate state is great & needs defending against social justice.

      The guys obviously never worked in a factory. …No, it needs social justice, still.

      These people have no idea the struggles of most people, except they use them, and they put this on the left?

      What left have we had for the last half century? Creating these conditions?

      • Garth Carthy

        Jordan Peterson is full of s***e. That’s my intellectual opinion.
        Seriously, he is a bit of a pain. I bought his latest book and could not believe how so many copies have been sold. He must have excellent PR. I struggled to finish it – its so wordy and full of literary diarrhoea. Do people actually read his books right through? I doubt it. I find Peterson a bit full of himself – he’s sort of passive aggressive in his demeanour. He treats every interlocuter as being a combative.
        He also has the nerve to treat sociology as being irrelevant and unscientific and yet he spouts forth with his pseudo science, trying to link (shoe horn) Darwin’s observations of animal behaviour in with human and political and economic matters. Even worse, he tries to uphold the importance and relevance of the Bible as a guide to modern morality and yet in the next breath he says he is an agnostic.
        I’m sure he knows plenty about clinical psychology, his day job – and I wish he would just stick to that.
        He is obsessed with his loathing of Marxism and the left. He then goes on to assert that he is also critical of the right as well as the left. I see very little of his criticism of the latter. He comes across to me as being very clever – but in a complete waste of space kind of way. You’ve heard of ‘creative accounting’. Well, I think he’s guilty of creative manipulation of facts.

        • Ishmael

          lol, Thanks.

          Yea, its like his historical & intellectual understanding has no sound base. I think all supermen must suffer this.

        • SA

          I agree. He has the intellect to challenge and to present cogent alternative explanations but then goes and spoils it all with his faulty political analyses.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    This is not a political statement, this is simply an observation of rapid ethnic displacement 25 years ago in England, compared to over 60 years ago .

    I was born in Oldham. I didn’t know, but I grew up with a lot of immigrants in my home town who’s parents had come from Eastern Europe,before,during and after WWII. Most like me were born in Oldham, and considered themselves English cos they were born here. They were English like me. I lived in a Catholic community in a “posh” part of Oldham – eg. there was an enormous mansion right opposite our house in the same avenue. ok we were persecuted by the catholic religious teaching – all fire and hell and hosts blood and wine Christ!, and i suspect many of my friends parents’ were actually *redacted*ish, and their religion may have been somewhat softer and closer to God, than the nonsense I was brought up with….

    But us kids, couldn’t tell the difference. I only noticed some of the surnames were different at the end of the first term.She was really nice, and helped me tie my shoelaces. I was the youngest in class. I still remember her name. All us kids were white and spoke the same way – pure Oldham accent which has got a kind of vocal friendly tone welcome at the end of each sentence,

    About 40 years ago, I left Oldham. It had hardly changed in 25 years. It was still much the same as when I was born.

    25 years ago, I took my 5 year old son, back to my home town, Oldham, and the house and area that I had lived in for 25 years from birth

    In less than 20 years the entire area had turned from almost 100% English, to over 90% Asian.

    I don’t particularly mind, because I don’t live in Oldham, but I found the change staggering. It was as if I was taking my 5 year old son to India. I simply wasn’t expecting it.

    Tony

    • bj

      Go with the flow Tony. Easy does it. Hate burns you up.

      Acceptance means the least energy spent. The more left to live.
      Lay back & relax.

      Don’t forget to watch the shooting stars (Perseids) on the 12th!
      There will be no moon, so conditions should be favourable.
      They don’t care about all the silly goings on down here.
      They just visit, put on a brief show, and that’s it.
      Like our lives.
      Peace.
      🙂

      • Tony_0pmoc

        bj, I don’t do hate. I just agree with psychopaths telling me what to do. I smile and give them the nod. They think they have won their control over me, and after a few gestures almost immediately fck off and stop giving me a hard time. They assume, I am going to do what they told me to do, whilst I just carry on doing what I intended to do in the first place.

        They rarely come back, but I don’t hate them. I just think they are not well in the head. I’ve tried to convert a few, with limited success.

        Tony

    • Tony

      There are very few people of Indian descent in Oldham Tony. There are a lot of people of Bangladeshi descent in the northern area around the hospital and football ground. And there are people of Pakistani descent in most of the other areas (though they are being pushed out of Copster Hill and it’s surrounds by the Romanian and Bulgarian communities, who have harassed and intimidated them.

      • Blissex

        As always it is not “Israel”, which is a country with many different political groups, all that you say is done by Likud, an extreme far-right party allied with the UK Conservatives.
        That difference is very, very important: for example J Corbyn is a zionist who is very pro-Israel, but also very much against the extreme far-right politics of Likud (and the Conservatives).

        • Tony_0pmoc

          Blissex, Excellent response. I agree with almost all of it, I simply have one question. Can you give me some evidence in support of your words “J Corbyn is a zionist” Thank You

          • Blissex

            «some evidence in support of your words “J Corbyn is a zionist”»

            This is from the Board of Deputies as reported by “The JC”:

            http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/153303/jeremy-corbyn-must-do-more-address-concerns-says-board-deputies-after-meeting
            «Mr Corbyn and two advisers held talks with Board of Deputies president Jonathan Arkush and chief executive Gillian Merron this afternoon. Following the meeting Mr Arkush said: “We had a positive and constructive meeting and were pleased that Mr Corbyn gave a very solid commitment to the right of Israel to live within secure and recognised boundaries as part of a two state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. “Mr Corbyn affirmed his support for shechitah, brit milah and Jewish faith schools. He also resolved in strong terms to fight antisemitism from wherever it comes.»

    • Hatuey

      How fascinating, I’m just reading the diary of a young prince in 19th century Bengal and he talks of a very similar experience. His complaint is of drunken English sailors and merchants who have taken over part of a town that was once an area where students of divinity resided.

      • Mistress Pliddy

        Who’d have thought, people complaining about drunken incomers? Sounds fascinating. Could you let have the citation, please. Would love to get hold of a copy.

    • KukuLele

      Tony,
      I lived in Milan, Italy many years ago. I was the only foreigner in my neighbourhood, centre-east, viale Argonne, città degli studi.
      Returned 10 yrs ago with son.
      Arab kids were running around after the ball and waiving to me from balconies.
      Pizzerias turned into kebab and Chinese places…
      Two years ago I go back to Belgrade (Serbia), enter a Chinse shop to buy a swimming trunk. The Chinese guy greets me in Serbian!!!
      I now live in Cambridge. Took me 5-6 years to find a local man who could tell me whether the Pink Floyd’s ever played the Flying Pig. The only pub standing in that area of Hills Rd. — the DID!
      The world has changed.

    • bj

      Chomsky’s principle is to report and comment on affairs and situations that he, as an American citizen, can influence.

      His attitude –in principle– is that injustices in other countries are to be signaled and dealt with by the locals first.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ TonyT12 August 1, 2018 at 20:44
      ‘Dispatches – inside Britain’s I^rael Lobby’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E70BwA7xgU&app=desktop
      Try to spread the word in MSM comments as well – the whole ‘Labour anti-Semiticsm’ is a load of BS; JC has been under unremitting attack ever since he became a contender for Labour leader, and it’s got more ferocious since he was elected leader.

      • Jo 1

        Indeed, however it would appear that John McDonnell is now joining in. I didn’t expect that!

      • pete

        Yes, too true, I watched the program when it was first aired.
        Because of suggested You Tube videos “up next” box attached to the link I was reminded of the sad case of Morechai Venunu :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu (Note a few PC edits!) The video is called “Israel Banned Documentary” and appears to be a production of the French/German company Arte and ZDF. It charts the background to Vanunu’s whistle blowing and the aftermath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZZvTZAKgro
        It’s a sobering reminder that we need to remove nuclear weapons, wherever they are located.

        • Andyoldlabour

          @Paul Barabara and Pete
          Both those videos are compelling and very worrying.
          How can a relatively small state such as Israel hold such disproportionate power and control over countries such as the US and UK?
          When Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal it was because of two reasons – undoing an Obama achievement and Israel. The very fact that Israel has nuclear weapons should make it a pariah state. It should be sanctioned.
          The journalist/author Peter Oborne is a very brave and clever guy, but I doubt that his courage and honesty will be rewarded.

  • Sharp Ears

    Blunt and straight to the point from the Scottish PSC whose chair is Mick Napier.

    Corbyn should not apologise for views of Holocaust survivor and Gaza professor
    In 2010 SPSC and IJAN (International J.wish Anti-Zionist Network) co-hosted a ten-venue speaking tour in the UK and Ireland on the theme of Never Again for Anyone. Main speakers were Auschwitz survivor Dr Hajo Meyer and Dr Haider Eid, Professor at Al Aqsa University in Gaza. Dr Eid spoke by video link since Israel refused permission for him to leave Gaza.
    https://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/zionism/corbyn-apologises-for-views-of-holocaust-survivor-and-gaza-professor

    It should not be forgotten that Dr Meyer was speaking just a year after the Israelis had killed 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza in their Cast Lead war and injured over 5,000. The infrastructure was wrecked and has never been restored.

    I liked his obituary of Marion Woolfson written four years ago.

    Marion Woolfson (11.02.1923 – 29.09.2012) RIP
    Marion Woolfson, Honorary President of Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign until her death two years ago today, was the author of several important books. ‘Prophets in Babylon: Jews in the Arab World’ refuted the oft-asserted Zionist myth that the ancient Jewish communities in Arab countries were extinguished by anti-semitic ethnic cleansing and that this in turn justified the mass expulsion of Palestinians from Palestine to make way for the setting up of the Jewish State in 1948. Once labelled “the most dangerous anti-Zionist in Britain” by an Israeli daily, Marion publicly denounced Israeli barbarity towards the Palestinian people when doing so incurred a personal cost; national newspapers whose columns had previously been open to her, increasingly refused to answer her letters or return her calls. She was beaten at the door of her London home by an unknown assailant, almost certainly an act of Zionist thuggery of a type becoming familiar.
    https://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/who-are-we/marion-woolfson-11-02-1923-29-09-2012-rip

    • SA

      Tony, bj and Paul
      It is indeed frightening to think that what happens in the US will be reflected here but we are usually a few years behind. The Israeli influence on U.K. has accelerated since 2010 . Iand is now blatant. In fact I am not sure that this Dispatches programme by Oborne would be allowed now. Witness how the Mazot affair was glossed over and the Al Jazeera series on the same subject were ignored. In fact Rudsbridger, the then editor of the Guardian explains very clearly how this works.
      As to Chomsky, he has not written extensively on US interference around the globe. I hope he does tackle this subject also because it is becoming worldwide. Many books and articles have been written on the Israel lobby and Finklestein, has even tackled the holocausr but has lost his academic post and more recently was sued like Craig rather maliciously.
      Now the problems about the fedenitions of AS by the IHRA is exactly that it will ban the discussion of these very sunbjects and the Labour NEC know this very well and hence thier document which is really very good. However they failed to sell it because of rather poor configuration of how it was presented.
      BTW Paul I posted this link of Oborne’s Dispatches before but it seems to have been ignored , including by you. I agree with you it should be disseminated widely.

      • SA

        Sorry this was supposed to be in answer to previous comment.
        However in answer to SE I think Napier is right. What exactly is wrong with saying that the lessons from the holocaust are universal and that never again should be adopted as a general anti war slogan? In fact it should be seen as a triumph for the cause. The scale of the Holocaust was indeed extreme and horrible but since then we have witnessed many atrocities on smaller scales but showing great violence and lack of humanity. Witness how now we are not shown daily, as we should, on our beloved media, pictures of deliberately starved Yemeni children whilst the orchestrated picture of the dust covered Syrian boy went viral. And the major invisible silent massacre estimated to have millions of victims that is the war in the Congo, remains invisible.

    • Sharp Ears

      Perhaps someone could make a video about Ellman in the same style as the one that featured Theresa May, entitled ‘Liar! Liar!.

  • Dave G

    They are using false claims of anti-Semitism to smear the memory of a Holocaust survivor in an attempt to tarnish Corbyn. There are no depths that they won’t go to.
    The Labour party definition of anti-Semitism apparently trumps a Holocaust survivor’s definition of anti-Semitism, so Corbyn is obliged, by Labour party rules, to condemn the Holocaust survivor. What more evidence of the stupidity of Labour’s current position with regard to anti-Semitism does anyone need?
    Labour should ditch the IHRA definition in its entirety, and the Chakrabarti definition, and use the Jewish Socialist’s Group definition instead.
    http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/we-must-define-antisemitism-to-fight-it-effectively

  • Sharp Ears

    The BBC is beyond words, even those of four letters.

    BBC accused of ‘breaching code’ by putting Assange critic in charge of special on WikiLeaks founder
    1 Aug 2018

    BBC’s Newsnight will air a special on WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange hosted by journalist John Sweeney, despite what the #FreeAssange campaign say are tweets in “clear breach” of the BBC objectivity standards by the journalist.

    “John Sweeney put in charge of tomorrow’s Julian Assange special despite (because of?) malicious tweets in clear breach of BBC code,” the #FreeAssange campaign tweeted.

    The campaign, which has more than 790,000 followers on Twitter published a list of tweets in which the BBC journalist repeatedly mocks and calls the Wikileaks founder a “Russian agent,” a “Kremlin asset” and Vladimir Putin’s most “useful idiot”. But, despite Sweeney’s personal feelings about Assange being on full display all over Twitter, he will still host the special on the whistleblower.

    The #FreeAssange campaign has traded barbs with Sweeney on Twitter in recent days, calling the BBC employee a “UK state TV propagandist”. Sweeney responded to say that the campaign’s characterization of him was “twaddle”.

    /..
    https://www.rt.com/uk/434862-assange-john-sweeney-bbc/

  • N_

    Imagine Donald Trump, who was elected US president possibly as a result of election cheating, calling Robert Mueller, or indeed calling anyone, “totally conflicted”. STFU, pouting tweet boy!

    • Loony

      Imagine Jeremy Corbyn being undermined by vague vacuous innuendo that he is anti semetic – oh the injustice.

      Imagine Donald Trump being undermined by vague vacuous innuendo that he (or some unknown shadowy Russian) gerrymandered his election victory – oh the justice.

      Imagine now how easy to dismiss vague vacuous partisan outrage. In many ways the more you attack Trump with lies then the more open Jeremy Corbyn becomes to be attacked with lies. You reap what you sow – and many people are sowing only lies. A right wing lie is no less a lie than a left wing lie.

      • N_

        Allegations of election cheating in favour of Trump are being investigated by the US judiciary. As head of state he has a conflict of interest in that matter.

        Corbyn has been slammed by private interests. No crimes have been alleged.

        • Loony

          I am pretty sure that “Hate Speech” is a crime in the UK, and I am pretty sure that expressions of anti Semetism constitute hate speech.

          But no matter. Consider Tommy Robinson – a case where crimes have been alleged and where there is a full judicial record. Consider the lies told about that man, some of which are also effectively recorded in the Judicial record. Why is it OK to tell lies about Tommy Robinson but not OK to tell lies about Jeremy Corbyn?

          Don’t you see that the more logically incoherent your ramblings about Trump and the more obsequious your defense of Corbyn the more Trump is strengthened and the more Corbyn is weakened.

      • Ishmael

        Speak for yourself. Maybe your on about the US establishment “left”? You know, the ones who “worshiped obama”..(Like i never did. Nor did I buy into Russiagate).

        Many on the left do not just mindlessly attack Trump. There is no need to make up stuff about him, he has enough blatlent issues, simply no need.

        • Michael McNulty

          Most of the US attacking Trump are not of the left but the right. Hillary Clinton to the left? She stands to the right of Mussolini. Americans cannot be that politically astute because everything they dislike politically they blame on the left or commies or Marxists, which would mean they’re so dumb the left squeezed in past them without being noticed because they’d have drowned the movement at birth otherwise. It is very unsophisticated to call Clinton a leftist. Almost puerile.

          • Ishmael

            I Agree, it’s more the right attacking the far right. & even further right on some issues.

            Political terms are vague, but few so meaningless a distinction as in the US. Team A team b.

    • wonky

      One day this Robert Mueller of yours will have to explain to St. Peter his immense efforts to cover up 911. Not that any explanation will help him much. You’re welcome.

  • N_

    The Independent tells people about the ways they can send money to Tommy Robinson. Very helpful. They might as well say 8 out of 10 Britons prefer Tommy Robinson to immigration and here’s the red button you can click to send money to the fine and victorious fellow who clearly has a great future ahead of him.

    Contrast the difference between how Tommy Robinson is being covered and the spin that’s on stories about Jeremy Corbyn.

    Seriously, which one of them is the racist?

    • Antonyl

      Neither. People labeling others as racist mostly are dubious characters. Only physical features define race, not religion or other ideology.

      • SA

        Antonyl
        “Only physical features define a race”
        Where does that leave disparate people such as the Falashas the Ashkenazis and the Mizrahim?
        Earlier on you also seemed to confused being Sunni with race. Do you think there is a sort of clash there?

        • Dom

          Anthonyl likes being racist and then likes to pretend he’s an oppressed free speech martyr if anyone intimates he’s a racist. It’s a growing phenomenon in society and Anthonyl is far from the only example among the regular posters on this site.

        • SA

          bj
          I don’t think Antonyl is Anon1. Their styles are so different. One is sarcastic and nasty the other appears to want to be nice and reasonable.

  • John

    Years ago, must have been in the late 80’s, someone wrote a book about the architects who’d designed Auschwitz. At the time, I was working as a drafts-person in an architecture firm. And the company had the contract to build an American prison. Fortunately, I wasn’t a part of that group, so I never had to decide whether I’d participate in that work at the same time I was hearing about the group that had designed a concentration camp where so many had died so horribly. But it did definitely make me think. Its awfully hard to participate in the system of some countries and not become a part of the ubiquitous evil.

    • truthwillout

      Is this much different to those who design and engineer fighter and bomber planes that can kill thousands of civilians?

  • quasi_verbatim

    Images of Yulia — before, hair-plastered in a pub and after, floating ethereally through the meadow — are a NoviSpray marketing masterstroke.

    But NoviSpray should be used by the male gender not at all, as this can result in vanishing taciturnity on the one hand or uncontrollable garrulity on the other.

    Otherwise, once Skripalsbury has been renamed (for this has not been a ghost town since Alfred burnt the cakes) and the Putin House of Horrors opened by the London Dungeon people in the new medieval Baileygate, the tourist trade is sure to revive.

    • Paul Barbara

      @ quasi_verbatim August 2, 2018 at 06:29
      And while the parents are down the pub or in the Pizza Parlour, the kids can play ‘find the perfume bottle’ in the park.

      • Sharp Ears

        Now the bins are being removed for examination and are being taken to Porton Down. It goes on and on. Ambulances too and ancillary equipment. I have already mentioned the air ambulance being taken out of commission for examination and cleansing.

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-45036062

        How many months is it since Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley were taken ill? Things move exceedingly slow in Wiltshire.

        • SA

          To justify the 40 million pounds grant that the government has donated to PD in recognition of outstanding services to cold war II.

  • Jo

    David Davis today”In the weeks leading up to my departure, there was another issue that I found it hard to simply let go of. When Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC) released its report into the UK’s involvement in torture and rendition, I knew immediately this could not be the end.

    Any government that permits UK involvement in torture should be held firmly to account. Unfortunately, this has not happened in cases where UK ministers and officials got mixed up in ‘war on terror’-era torture.

    That is why Theresa May should deliver on the Government’s long-standing commitment to launch an independent judge-led inquiry into these matters. That is the only way we can ensure we don’t become complicit in wicked acts ever again.

    The reports revealed Tony Blair’s ministers planned and bankrolled scores of illegal kidnap operations, and allowed the UK to become involved in hundreds of cases where officials knew of or suspected abuse.

    In one incident an MI6 officer took part in the questioning of a detainee alongside US personnel before witnessing the man being driven in a ‘6ft sealed box’ to be illegally rendered on an American plane.

    Taliban prisoners in orange jumpsuits sit in a holding area at Guantanamo Bay in 2002
    Taliban prisoners in orange jumpsuits sit in a holding area at Guantanamo Bay in 2002
    We read that the head of MI5 said that, while this was ‘unsatisfactory’, it was ‘their business’.

    The report also details the account of one British agent describing an American ‘Torture Centre’ in Iraq, to which the UK military were no longer allowed to send detainees as a result of what went on there.

    In what the ISC report condemns as an unacceptable ‘workaround’, MI6 simply took detainees held there to an adjacent cabin, where they could be interviewed, before being sent back to their abuse……”etc

  • Hatuey

    On a positive note, this stuff that’s going with the Labour Party is really great in terms of directing the attention of the masses towards Israel and what it’s been getting up to in the world.

    I can guess that a few hundred thousand people in the U.K. alone have been encouraged to look into things that they otherwise wouldn’t have in these past few days.

    Any neutral person who reads about the plight of Palestinians for 5 minutes will come out of it an anti-Zionist, such is the scale and rank cruelty of their oppression.

    Asking the left to give up the Palestinians is like asking the Catholic Church to give up Jesus. Pro-Israeli lobbyists and media hacks know this and yet they persist. They’re shooting themselves in the foot on this and it won’t be long before the marketing managers tell them to tone it down.

    I’m hoping Trump involves himself in the debate, though. It would make a lot of sense for him to do so. As Chomsky points out, the influence of Russia in the US elections and everything else is minuscule as compared to the the nefarious influence of Israel and its supporters.

    These are interesting times. I definitely feel entertained.

  • Republicofscotland

    So the biased propaganda machine known as the BBC, reported on the fairness of the recent election in Zimbabwe. That there was undue media bias in favour of the ruling Zanu PF party.

    This is the action of a finely tuned propaganda machine that broadcasts to dozens of nations all over the globe. It pumps out speel, that suits the needs of the British government, such as giving negative accounts on elections or politically groups or movements that might infringe or impede on the intentions of the British governments/corporate/ or beneficial allies activities in that particular country.

    You pay the BBC to prevaricate and distort information on their news and radio channels, which they then feed back to you on a daily basis.

    • pete

      Yes, quite right.
      “the biased propaganda machine known as the BBC, reported on the fairness of the recent election in Zimbabwe”
      Obviously the BBC do not understand irony.

    • SA

      ROS
      I hate to be pedantic but it is spiel not speel. It derives from German, probably through yiddish meaning a game or performance.
      Back to the BBC. They also did not seem to like Imran Khan winning the Pakistani elections and this was remarked on by Moon of Alabama.

      • Republicofscotland

        Thank you SA for the correction.

        As for Khan, his party openly backed the Blasphemy laws during campaigning. Alas it shows the world that Pakistan is still inhabited by religious zealots.

        I recall the Governor of Punjab was murdered by his own bodyguards for trying to defend someone against the insidious Blasphemy laws. Which allows unsubstantiated accusations against someone to lead to the death penalty and seizure of their lands in Pakistan.

        • SA

          Yes I am aware of that. But there is a lot to be said for the approach of gradual change. Upsetting a fanatic constituency and getting killed in the process is unlikely to achieve anything in such a volatile place. He is however against US interference in Pakistan.

  • Republicofscotland

    Meanwhile, the replacement buffoon to Boris Johnson (who incidently took his sweet time to exit the FS’s grace and favour residence, leave means leave) Jeremy Hunt, recently told Chinese hosts that his Chinese wife was Japanese. How the hell could you get your wife’s nationality wrong, unless youre a complete tosser.

    Still Hunt appeared to have gotten away with the faux pas, I’m glad the numpty didn’t go on and mention Nanking.

    Any the new inept FS, has claimed that Britain might get a hard Brexit accidently. Anyone with a miniscule of knowledge on the matter knows fine well, a hard Brexit won’t happen by accident. No it will be the consequence of lack of ability, which runs through the British government to compromise or barter out a deal.

    Hunt wasn’t too good as Health minister either.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/jeremy-hunt-nhs-health-secretary-foreign-office-junior-doctors-patient-safety-a8441191.html

    • SA

      “Hunt wasn’t too good as Health minister either.”
      TM wasn’t too good as Home secretary either.

  • Republicofscotland

    As the far-right knuckle draggers, who laud the useful idiot Tommy Robinson’s release from prison (on bail). I wonder if any of them and the founder, and ex-leader of the EDL, and PEDIGA supporter, Tommy Robinson, who loathes the EU. Realise that Tommy would still be banged up in prison if it weren’t for the European Convention on Human Rights, laws which were trangressed during what the Appeal Court judges said was a flawed process.

    The “lovely” person full of the milk of human kindness Katie Hopkins, on hearing of boot boy Tommy’s release, uttered that she was looking forward to an apology from the judge who jailed Robinson.

    • Hatuey

      I don’t have any reason to defend the guy or share any views with him but as I understand it his incarceration was politically motivated, which is to say deplorable.

      As usual though, the supposed political intellectuals turn a blind eye when people they disagree with are strapped to the rack.

      Hypocrisy drips like puss from every sinew of Britain’s body politic today.

        • Hatuey

          I am aloof. If through some profound transformation I wake up and find myself needing moral guidance along the lines of “Nazis are bad”, you’ll be the first guy I come to.

          Half the comments on this forum can be reduced to tautologies amounting to “bad men are bad and (us) good people are good…”

      • Republicofscotland

        “I understand it his incarceration was politically motivated, which is to say deplorable.”

        Really?

        I’m under the impression that Mr Robinson, or Yaxley, or McMaster or Harris, was jailed for contempt of court. That arose from him broadcasting (pick an alias) prejudicial material during two trials. Conduct that he had already received a warning about on prior occasions.

        But of course I’d like to read your fascinating point of view, that Tommy or whoever the hell he is, is a victim in all this.

        Of course you’ll also be well aware that Tommy aka other fake names, is no fan of immigrants sneaking into Britain. Yet Mr Take your pick, has previous conviction for attempting to sneak into the US, using a false passport, how ironic, don’t you think?

        The odious far-right poster boy, also has convictions for police assault and threatening behaviour.

        • Hatuey

          There’s no point in trying to explain the injustice that resulted in him behind bars. The fact is he was released and it’s now officially acknowledged that his sentence and conviction rested on highly questionable ground.

          I don’t like the guy and what he stands for any more than you do, but if you are discussing his incarceration then his political views, repulsive as they are, shouldn’t feature.

          A child would understand that this dichotomy between politics and law is of the highest importance in a supposed democracy. The fact that it needs to be explained and that you think his political views are relevant in a contempt case speaks volumes.

          How would you like your political views to be taken into account in a case involving say a traffic violation? That’s what it amounts to.

          My own interest in the case, fyi, revolves around the technologies he used. I think technology is asking a lot of questions of law these days. It was a disappointment to see discussion on that aspect of his conviction smothered by the usual liberal sermons.

          • Republicofscotland

            Thank you Hautey for your opinion however, it’s one that’s given off more heat than light.

  • Loony

    Here is some news from Venezuela

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-01/venezuelas-maduro-admits-socialism-has-failed

    It is instructive that the British prefer to waste time with smears and innuendo regarding anti Semetism. A more profitable line of inquiry would be to question Corbyn closely as to how exactly his idealized policies differ from the exact policies implemented in Venezuela. If his idealized policies differ materially then why did he never mention his divergence of views when he telephoned El Presidente Maduro to eulogize both Tony Benn and the Venezuelan economy.

    If Corbyn favors the same policies as those implemented in Venezuela but expects a different outcome – then why is that? Is there something unique about the UK or something lacking in the Venezuelan character?

    The fact that no-one will pursue this line of inquiry is as obvious as it is instructive. The media have mostly been infiltrated by a toxic combination of Communists and idiots, and neither category are likely to be interested in Venezuela.

    Corbyn himself is most likely a well intentioned idiot – but understand well that he derives support from people that are absolutely determined to drive the population into the same nightmare of economic desperation experienced by the mass of the Venezuelan citizenry. Those who present themselves as bleeding heart liberals so concerned with equality have at their core a seething hatred for the mass of the people. Starvation is too good for the average person who has been written off as “racists” “sexists” “Islamaphobes” “fascists” etc etc.

    • Hatuey

      Hi Loony. As regards Venezuela, don’t you think the US orchestrated sanctions played a part?

      • Andyoldlabour

        @Hatuey, the sanctions have had a tremendously negative effect on their economy, as they are on Iran. Both are oil producing countries and both have strong diplomatic ties – both refuse to cowtow to the US.

        • Republicofscotland

          Indeed, the concerted effort against Iran and Venezuela by the West is very damaging to their economies. Nike cancelled Iran’s football boots during the recent World Cup, and just the other day Adidas cancelled without warning Iran’s football teams strips.

      • Loony

        I am sure that US sanctions have played a part

        Venezuela is simply today’s story – you can look anywhere you want and the answer is always the same. Implement policies akin to those implemented in Venezuela and the economy collapses.

        The USSR was massively larger than the US, had more natural resources, had a technologically advanced military and was completely immune to US sanctions and yet it collapsed.

        Go back 50 years and the Chinese were busy creating a famine to kill off millions of people. Today China has the 2nd largest economy in the world and lifts 10’s of millions of people out of abject poverty each and every year. What can explain this other than the abandoning of Communist policies.

        There are growing US sanctions in place against Russia and China (through tariffs) and yest neither Russia or China will collapse.

        • laguerre

          You mean, I suppose, that US sanctions are very successful on Venezuela. That is true – sanctions are about the only working weapon the US has these days. Pity that people have to starve because of policies undertaken in Washington for totally capricious reasons.

        • Hatuey

          Okay, Loony, I see. So, in a sense, maybe the policies you are talking about aren’t so much the problem. Maybe the response to those policies by the US and others is worth looking at?

          Why do you think the US and other western countries find it necessary to impose sanctions on second and third world countries like that?

          Why would it aggravate the US to see some small country like Venezuela implement the sort of mixed-economy arrangements that most in the West take for granted?

          It’s puzzling.

        • SA

          Loony
          Your simplified history of the Soviet Union is a bit too brief. What you seem not to mention is that pre Soviet Russia was extremely backward with an agricultural system almost based on serfdom and with little industry. From that beginning the USSR having had to fight two world wars and then also having to deal with a perversion that was Staliism, came out not only as a major world power but also a very resilient and innovative country. This was not all due to natural resources as some detractors like to make out. Moreover out of the Soviet Union came out some of the greatest musical talents and one of the greatest twentieth century composers, Dmitri Shostakovich. The Bolshoi ballet and the steady stream of Russian great pianists continues to this day. So please give credit where it is due, I would say that is a great example of why the whole world should adopt socialism, and maybe even communism!

          • Loony

            Yeah great upwards of 50 million dead, but that’s OK because you produced a couple of musicians.

            Maybe someone should exterminate half of Liverpool and then justify that on the basis that the Beatles came from Liverpool,

          • SA

            You only selectively read part of what I wrote and then multiplied the number of victims whilst ignoring that some of them were due to the second World War. Don’t be selective.

          • Hatuey

            “From that beginning the USSR having had to fight two world wars and then also having to deal with a perversion that was Staliism…”

            Since you find simplified histories so irksome, I’ll point out that the Soviet Union didn’t take part in WW1, and actually wasn’t formed until 1922.

            And whilst I disagree when you say their success was “not all due to natural resources”, I don’t see how you could substantiate that. The fact is that Russia is gigantic and it has unbelievable natural resources.

          • SA

            Saudi Arabia and Iraq also have huge natural resources but have not produced the marvelous technological feats of the USSR. Moreover, these resources did not suddenly change in 1917.
            I take and accept your point about the USSR not taking part in WW1, but the precursors of the USSR, the revolution did and also experienced the invasion by US and UK to help the Whites against the Bolsheviks. Obviously this blog is not the place to have a full discussion on the history of the Soviet Union.

          • Hatuey

            I’m happy to discuss Russian history. Russian natural resources dwarf those of Iraq and Saudi Arabia combined. It also has a diverse variety of natural resources. Russia is huge, it has 11 time zones.

            You are suggesting its relatively lofty position in the world has nothing to do with all that which is a strange thing to say in my opinion, more than implying that the ingenuity and natural talent of its people explain its success.

            The truth is that, if anything, Russian politics and society have probably held the country as a whole back. Looking st the size of it and its resources, it should probably have a lot more clout.

            It’s all academic. But from the defeat by Japan in 1905, right through to the Yeltsin years, it would be hard to point to a single day where the country was managed even reasonably well. Japan in 1905, incidentally, had basically just emerged from the stone age.

          • SA

            And these diverse natural resources were able on thier own in a state so badly managed that in 1905 under the czars they were beaten by Japan emerging from the Stone Age, to orbit satellites and to be one of the foremost nations in rocket building. All due to natural resources.

    • Xavi

      Corbyn isn’t proposing socialism. He’s proposing mild social democratic reforms to your beloved hyper financialized neoliberal capitalism. Also worth considering Venezuela has been blockaded into default by the global hegemon.

      • Loony

        How do you know that? When has Corbyn ever said that? Why can’t Corbyn say these things for himself?

        We do know that the Communist Party stood down from the last election because it considers Corbyn to be a Communist. Are you claiming that the Communist Party is not a reliable entity for identifying Communists? We also know that Corbyn has publicly praised the economic and social policies of Venezuela – a strange thing to do if he disagrees with those policies.

        Only you (and a few of your fellow travelers) have claimed that I consider “hyper financialized neoliberal capitalism” to be “beloved” This is flat out false – so if you write lies about one thing, how does anyone know that you are not writing lies about other things?

        • Xavi

          I remember previously asking you to identify any policy in Labour’s highly-popular manifesto that would have provoked outrage in W Europe before the new gilded age/ neoliberal era. I remember your inability to identify one.

          As for your love of hyper financialized neoliberal capitalism/billionarism, it is plain for anyone to see in your terror of Corbyn and your ardent support of Trump’s economic policies, directed by Goldman Sachs, Robert Mercer, etc.

          • Loony

            …and I remember replying to you that a Manifesto is not a useful place to look for policies.

            You can look at the Manifesto’s for both the Labour and Conservative Parties and would conclude that both parties are committed to the UK exiting the EU. If you look at the actual behavior of politicians you may conclude that they are trying as hard as possible not to leave the EU.

            Corbyn remains constrained by the Blairite faction within the Labour Party. For Corbyn to win power then this faction must be neutralized. If he were to win power with Blairites being elected as Labour MP’s then they would likely leave the Party causing it to split – as they did before. All of this means you will not find the full gamut of Corbyn policies in any manifesto.

            Maybe you noticed that in only the last days Trump has gone after the Koch Brothers – hardly the actions of someone you are so keen to smear Trump as being. Look around you and note how both NATO and the EU are fundamental pillars of neo-liberalism and note how Trump, Sampson like, is seeking to tear those pillars down.

    • Garth Carthy

      Loony, I’m sorry to be patronising but you need to read Naomi Klein’s scholarly book, “The Shock Doctrine”. This book really opened my eyes to the corruption at the heart of US foreign policy. The author doesn’t rant but simply delves deeply into the problems and suffering across the world caused by “Free Market” Capitalism. In my opinion, this book put Naomi Klein on the same high level as people like John Pilger in truth telling about who and what really controls society and the economy.
      I disagree with your definition of Corbyn as being a “well intentioned idiot”. He’s certainly well intentioned, but maybe needs to start getting angrier and argue his corner with a bit more force. I do have reservations about his support for Brexit (or is he just being true to his belief that the Referendum result has to be adhered to in the name of democracy?).
      Surely, the truth is that Corbyn has an impossible task in the face of Brexit, Tory media smears and propaganda, Israel meddling in the Labour Party, etc.

      Anyway, I don’t think you are qualified to call Corbyn and idiot when you, and many like you, clearly don’t seem to understand the wider issues where unseen dark players in the ‘deep state’ are manipulating the destinies of so many Latin American and other countries across the globe by interfering with their economic affairs and assisting in the undermining or overthrow of their democratically elected governments. Sorry again, if I am patronising but some of us need a hefty jolt. I’ve had a few jolts and some of them they did me a power of good!

      • Loony

        Corbyn seems to meet any commonly accepted definition of the term “idiot” Otherwise how did he get embroiled in all this anti Semetic garbage. He is not an Israeli and he is not a Palestinian – it is a complicated subject that arouses high emotions. What has itgot to do with him. He is supposed to be representing people in the UK – how can he do that if his time is being wasted dealing with a range of bogus charges – all brought down his own head by his own actions.

        Sure people in the “deep state” hate him – but it is of nothing compared to the hatred directed against President Trump – but Trump is a tough guy and therein lies the difference.

        • laguerre

          I’m not sure I understand your point, loony. If someone attacks you, you the victim are at fault and an idiot? A bit hard to credit.

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