Staring at the screen in disbelief as the BBC broadcast a preview of a quite literally soft focus “interview” of Theresa May by a simpering Nick Robinson. North Korean stuff. For Panorama.
“Prime Minister, a lot of people liked it when you described yourself as a bloody difficult woman”. Astonishingly sycophantic stuff from the state broadcaster.
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BBC website
Israel blames Syria for Russian aircrew deaths but ‘expresses sorrow’ (of course)
27 minutes ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45563304
RT
Putin on Israel’s role in Il-20 downing: ‘Looks accidental, like chain of tragic circumstances’
18 Sep, 2018 13:08
https://www.rt.com/news/438728-putin-israel-syria-plane/
Putin is resisting the provocation. Biding his time?
Putin coming off awfully weak, he can’t even condemn Israel ILLEGAL raids that lead up to this killing of 17 russians.
Are Putin afraid of Israel? One can assume the syrians are tired of russian weak response and their ability to actually MOVE out Israel out of Syria once and for all!
Other news:
NATO member Norway didn’t know much about Libya yet helped bomb it into chaos, state report finds
https://www.rt.com/news/438683-norway-libya-war-report/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS
Yes. Earlier he was saying:
Russia ‘reserves right to respond’ after saying Israel’s actions led to downing of Il-20 by Syria 8.06
‘You are to blame for downing of Il-20 and death of its crew,’ Russia tells Israel 8.53
Putin on Israel’s role in Il-20 downing: ‘Looks accidental, like chain of tragic circumstances’ 13.08 and edited 14.19
https://www.rt.com/news/438728-putin-israel-syria-plane/
From my reading of the reports it seems the French and Israelis were conducting some kind of coordinated operation and the Russian plane was shot down by Syrian air defence. Whatever the French and Israelis were doing I can’t see how this can be described as Israels ‘fault’. If the Syrians were fooled into shooting down their allies’ reconnaissance plane by the Israelis then this is a problem with Russian/Syrian operational coordination.
oh bullshit… the israelis were using the surveillance aircraft as cover for there bullshit… anyone who claims israel who ignores international law on a regular basis, is not responsible for this is good at fooling themselves, but no one else..
The point I was making is that if a Russian aircraft has been shot down by a Russian air defence system manned by Syrians then Russia and Syria clearly have targeting and communication issues.
With regard to international law; you don’t go into a rough neighbourhood and expect not to be mugged because it’s against the law.
the next time someone pushes you out into oncoming traffic, i will be curious if you view it the same way.. they were your fellow uk drivers that ran you over… hopefully you can appreciate the analogy..
as for international law – the world is a rough place, but without some type of law, we are all screwed.. in this example, one country – israel – is clearly flaunting the concept of international law… and a whack of countries seem to be okay with that.. why is that??
Pardon me deb but the Israeli jets were attacking Syria. They weren’t merely having a little coordinated operation. The Israeli war machine (and perhaps the French) were assaulting Syrian operations against UN declared terrorists. The Syrians have developed some potent weaponry in their struggle to end the terrorist attacks on their country and Israel’s government seems mighty keen to damage their chance of success.
Israel could show its sincerity for having peace and respecting borders by withdrawing from occupied lands in Syria. For many that would be the primary move of integrity and sincerity.
Well you get 8/10 for trying to blame the French and for putting “fault” in inverted commas, but the following gives you away as trying too hard:
“Whatever the French and Israelis were doing I can’t see how this can be described as Israels ‘fault’.”
When a Nazi hides behind a security guard to carry out his 712th school shooting, and, from amid the bodies, one of the children throws a rock at the security guard, the incident is the Nazi’s fault. Do you understand now?
I wasn’t ‘blaming’ anyone, merely pointing out what I had seen reported.
My point is, and remains, that when the Syrians are using their Russian supplied air defence system (and presumably Russia has trained the Syrians or may even be manning the system themselves) they shouldn’t (despite whatever illegal actions the Israelis are engaged in) be shooting themselves out of the sky – that is a fault of their own targeting/communications.
deb – check this out for an alternative view..
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/09/the-shoot-down-of-the-russian-il-20-whos-responsible.html
There’s nothing debonair about that comment.
True, and look how he says “French and I__aelis” rather than “I__aelis and French”, and how he talks of the Syrians of having been “fooled”. Not as clever as he thinks. Rabid, though.
N_
Fooled, conned, deceived, misled, setup, bilked – what difference does it make? That is exactly the what the Russians are saying the Israelis did.
“and look how he says “French and I__aelis” rather than “I__aelis and French”; Have you got a problem with alphabetical order and spelling out words in full, and you call me rabid??
Deb
And don’t forget the agreement whereby Israel are supposed to give the Russians notice of impending assaults precisely in order to allow the Russians to take appropriate action to avoid this sort of incident. In this case we are led to believe they were given one minute’s notice!
Sure, how can one blame Israel? They can bomb Syria whenever they like. The Syrians are to blame for aiming “indiscriminately” at the Israeli jets/rockets?
Israel shouldn’t be bombing Syria, NATO shouldn’t be bombing Syria, Gulf States, US and UK should not be supporting terrorists. Syria should be allowed to defend it’s airspace from aggressors etc. etc., but when Syria shoots down a Russian plane then that’s an issue between Russian and Syrian targeting/communications and Putin has acknowledged that this looks like an accident.
deb – you are clearly removing israels role in all this… it is as israel wasn’t the prime reason for this happening to you… you don’t get it, and i can’t see you getting it anytime soon either..
I really cannot understand why people object to Hitler invading Poland to secure the rights of Ethnic Germans in former German territory especially as League of Nations had repeatedly rebuffed Poland for its actions against the German churches and schools and the post offices in Danzig.
Come to think of it in the light of developments since 1950 and especially the violation of sovereign states in Serbia 1999 just 24 years after Helsinki Final Accord was signed – Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Ukraine – it is very hard to see why Keitel was hanged at Nuremberg whilst Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Obama, Trump, Blair, Cameron, May, Macron, Hollande strut their stuff…..John Major sees to have been the only one with sense but Douglas Hurd knew his brief. As for Netanyahoo he is way beyond the pale and should be in The Hague
I suspect Shoigu and the Military will prepare some surprises for Israel and Putin will be nonchalant. It is an operational matter and if Israeli planes are destroyed it will be ascribed to Syrian Air Defence. The S-200s have been updated in terms of warheads and digitised so they are not quite as antiquated as media suggests but I bet there will be some traps laid. Israelis will probably deploy an F-35 soon to see if they can draw Russian radar tracking – but the Russians will not play there since as China points out NATO has 5000 aircraft to initiate war with Russia and with Duda pleading for big US bases in Poland a Euro-theatre nuclear war looks to be on the cards.
Boisvert
There will be no nuclear war, whether in Europe or elsewhere. This will run counter to the longings of some, but that’s just too bad, we can live with it.
I bank on your assurance Charles and want to hold you and your family directly accountable should your assurances be erroneous
Boscoverde
No problem. Remember, you read it here first.
Problem is, if Russia attacks Israel, the USA will attack Russia. Start of World War 3.
That is why Russia will not attack Israel. Why do people keep predicting WW3? Is it to make the flesh of readers (or perhaps their own flesh) creep? Is it to give themselves a prophetic image in the hope of impressing others? Whatever it is, let’s say it loud and clear once more : THERE ISN’T GOING TO BE A WW3. NOT TODAY. NOT NEXT MONTH. NOT NEXT YEAR….
I’m afraid that confident prophecy neither reassures nor impresses me.
Especially since, if it happens, he won’t be around to rebuke.
I’m here to combat scare-mongering nonsense – any reassurance is merely incidental.
In 2015 Turkey took out a Russian combat aircraft. If anything that seems to have led to an improvement in relations between Putin and Erdogan
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-border-with-syria
Yes but that attack was coordinated by a NATO AWACS plane and given the green light
We’ve only just had the centenary of the start of the First World War and you’ve forgotten the lesson already?
Well, he wasn’t alive then. So for him it didn’t happen.
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.
– George Santayana, “The Life of Reason” (1905-1906)
Jiusito
Yeah, well, that anniversary was in 2014, so 4 years ago and as you know, a week’s a long time in politics (Santayana didn’t say that) and anyway the analogy’s a false one and so there’s no lesson to learn or to forget, sorry.
Re “NOT NEXT YEAR”
Well, what about the year after that?
Well, if the red calf is truly red all over, then the loonballs at the Temple Institute, will call it the end of days, and the
prophecy of the Third temple can begin.
So we known which fruitcake nation to look to, for the coming armageddon.
It’s probably going to happen anyway. Is Russia not ready yet?
Well in that case the US, UK, France and I***el will have achieved their objective!
There are 1.3 million Russians living in Israel – Netanyahoo needs their votes. There are 2 million Russians living in Germany – they look to AfD. Some estimates say 40% German Army in some units is Russian-speaking German and yet recruitment is so low they talk of recruiting non-Germans whereas they will be recruiting Muslims if they do not find other sources of manpower.
Erdogan is going to open a giant mosque in Cologne funded by his Government through the IDIB front organisation – he has > 2 million supporters in Germany who show a greater propensity to vote Erdogan than those in Turkey.
There are some undercurrents which are shaping the future
Have you got a source for ‘Some estimates say 40% German Army in some units is Russian-speaking German’?
Interesting fact, I am just surprised by it.
You have to read German Army blogs and comments to hear some units communicate in Russian and with a German-speaking Feldwebel he is out of the loop
I don’t think my schoolboy German would be up for deciphering German Army blogs!
“Are Putin afraid of Israel?”
I think he are.
Thanks MJ and that is an interesting question. I see Putin as a very cautious player and fully aware of the folly of war. He came to Syria’s side because the terrorists will never just stop there had they been successful. Russian people have experienced some horrifying terrorist inspired attacks and they rely on President Putin to keep the killers away. Just as you and I do in trusting the rule of law to maintain peace and security in our homes.
I am certain Putin and his generals are just as eager as Assad and his generals to exterminate these killers so they never ‘go home’ to kill again. Over the past couple of years Assad and Putin have slowly dragged the western backers of these terrorist killers almost off their stupid folly. Soon they will be bottled up in Idlib and all other provinces will be cleared. Then these killers can continue killing each other as they have proven very successful in the past six months. By now any ‘moderate’ people in Idlib etc have escaped or moved out to surrounding districts. Soon the slaughterers will be left to themselves.
Of course the killers could all be liberated by the vast military forces of France, UK, USA, Turkey by repatriating these ‘heroes’ to their own countries but I guess they share Putin’s view view on this issue.
Because Russia cannot afford to alienate too many players. It is indeed weak. And Putin plays the best game given its weak cards. Putin consistently shows that he is flexible and reliable partner (unlike infantile West) and will resort to extreme measures ONLY when Russia is cornered (e.g. Crimea). I think the incident will be swallowed, but it will play its role in future negotiations. I think Israelis are informed that similar “unfortunate chain of events” will not be tolerated.
That’s no good. If they know Putin won’t do anything they’ll just carry on regardless.
I agree, but that’s the way it is. And then it will become “corner”. If they won’t see it, they will get a new “Georgia”, “Crimea”… I think Putin already showed enough that things can turn the other way very quickly. Maybe they are given a notice that the incident will be paid back. But some other time. I don’t know. But to risk a “little war” with Israel would be irresponsible.
P.S. If only “strong” countries could have a small fraction of grace “weak” Putin has….
Agreed. He sometimes comes over like a global headmaster dealing with naughty schoolchildren. He doesn’t war and wants the return of diplomacy, which he happens to be very good at.
@MJ @Yevgeny
This was an I__aeli provocation, and if provokers don’t get what they want they provoke again.
Even if the plane had not been attacked, using it as cover and giving only a minute’s warning constitute a provocation.
Thanks N_, I fully agree with that. The constant provocations by Israel under pathetic pretexts are infuriating to myself as observer. I trust that in the next few days Putin and Assad can formulate a means to end the belligerence but as Nutty has just asked USA to acknowledge the annexation of Golan Heights, I don’t hold much hope.
Landgrabbing is the modus operandi of successive Israeli governments and there seems no end to it yet.
So UK is weak. US demanded they sail HMS Albion to antagonise the Chinese and that is the end of a Trade Deal with China. Daniel Hannan wants the NHS run by HCA and Bain Capital to please the USA to get a trade deal.
The UK is incredibly weak. Putin is only weak so long as he fears Armageddon. Trump is strong because he has no fear of thermonuclear war and its consequences. Hitler never visited bomb damage in Germany so he never became discouraged.
Yevgeny
Sure Russia seems rational but the west arent, and they have showed that many times now, still Russia is getting fooled and literally smashed around, dont forget the earlier provations last night by not only Israel but apparently also France.
If Russia dont make a point soon – it is way overdue already, they will get hit harder and harder.
The sad fact – which about sums up our species – is that the USA and Israel control the world because they have the money – and most people will do absolutely anything for cash.
The money and the media. I don’t think they could do it without the media.
The media will do anything for cash.
Israel isn’t that rich a country. Using GDP (Purchasing Power Parity) Israel ranked 54th in 2017. Under nominal GDP Israel ranked 30th in 2017.
Israel as a country is not rich enough to control the world. Are you using Israel as a catch-all term?
In the first place GDP is completely meaningless as a measure of national wealth. In the second place Israel is full of extremely wealthy people. Like most intelligent wealthy people, they conceal their wealth.
Lastly, it really doesn’t cost very much to buy people. Especially journalists.
What exactly do you expect Putin to do in this situation? Israel are allowed to do anything and everything they want. The BBC, to name one of many, has “Russia blames Israel” as its headline. It has removed reference to the involvement of the French frigate. All in the space of a few hours, the case is done and dusted, Russia’s old antiaircraft defences were to blame. No mention that Israel has been doing these bombing raids for years. 200 in the last 18 months alone. That’s undeclared war on Syria. It’s totally against all international law (self defence) and the UN should demand it stops or faces the consequences. Arms embargoes, economy sanctions, exposure of its massive, (poor little vulnerable liberal democracy) illegal, nuclear arsenal alone should result in the full force of the International community being used.
Instead, if Russia was to respond in kind, the NATO world powers would have the very excuse Netanyahu is working to provide them with. It’s a mistake to think that Netanyahu or the Zionist entity created by Britain (City of London and the Realm) to defend its empire cares about Jewish people. Or Israel. Or any human being on the face of our planet.
Looking at the Trump situation. It is now obvious there was never any collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign. Hence the Skripal nonsense. May knows that Trump knows that Britain and its secret intelligence services conspired to fabricate the whole affair. Obama, Hillary Clinton, Mays Government and assorted players are up to their necks in it. This was revealed in March (FISA memo)- Skripal act one. Russophobia builds. After World Cup need to kick start it again- Skripal act two (Charlie and Dawn). Then, just as the case was totally falling apart in America. (No evidence of any American involvement, Muller sued by Russian internet company, Bruce Ore testimony, etc etc) May is made to stand up in Parliament and finger a couple of fitness guys from Russia’s GRU. All the time Trump is fighting for his life in the mid terms in America.
It’s the most critical situation I can ever remember in terms of geopolitical shenanigans. One over reaction will ignite the fuse.
There’s more to say about Norway’s participation in Libya. It was a textbook case of conspiracy: PM Stoltenberg (now NATO, said the other day he’d do it all over again), foreign secretary Støre, minister of defense Faremo, secretary of state Barth Eide and some guy from the secret services met in an apartment and decided to join, then informed the other party leaders in the ruling coalition by text message.
If i was in a covert ‘western’ operation in the ME/North Africa – i would be worried about travelling in a plane with my fellow ‘consultants’ for the foreseeable future.
There will be bloody revenge. There always is.
Do Putin want to start WW3?
No, he don’t.
Back in 2015 when the US Air Force ‘accidentally’ bombed Deir Ezzor ,killed about 200 Syrian military and co-ordinated with an ISIS attack ,there was a Russian reprisal, which was only reported in the FARS News of Iran.
It was this time that Samantha Powers ,US rep at the UN, threw an extreme tantrum with the Russian Ambassador , which puzzled many.
The Russians had sent a couple of Kalibr missiles up the spout of a Control center hidden in the hills above Aleppo.
This Control Centre directed operations of the Jihadi armies, which were embedded with Special services of US,UK, Turkey, Qatar.
Of course no official complaint could be made as all these forces were there illegally directing illegal attacks on Syria.
As the Mafia saying goes, ‘Revenge is a dish ,best eaten cold’.
Russia will retaliate with plausible deniability and in its own good time. Putin is playing the Sun Tzu strategy, Attack from a position of strength and do not interfere when your opponent makes mistakes.
The attack on the Russian AWAC was a master stroke of deception by the Israelis, co-ordinated with the French destroyer Auvergne,, but it will be returned in spades.
Putin means to win the War, not a battle as per Von Clausewitz strategy.
mike
Russia will start WW3 by responding fire to Israel? Of course not, in fact Russia doesnt do the smallest of “return”, it doesnt bode well for blocking off future attacks by west on the middle east. Not to mention the aggression by Israel will keep on going even stronger.
Hezbollah has 80,000 men under arms and 150,000 rockets and can eradicate the IDF if it invades Lebanon again. If Israel is there in 5 years time it will be because Netanyahoo is not.
Yes, that bloke who got the Nobel Peace Prize for murdering cambodians doesn’t think Israel has got long to live and he should know.
The BBC panders to whom ever is in power, always has, always will.
On a side note : Craig watches far too much telly !
Indeed, Salford Lad. I suspect there is also a control centre or two in Idlib, full of Imperial advisors, that might not be intact for much longer.
There was a summit on Syria a week or two ago involving Putin, Erdogan and Rouhani. All presidents, top level stuff. It struck me as odd that Assad was not present to discuss the future of his own country. Where was he: is he still alive?
Probably with his wife who has just had cancer surgery. You know tomorrow in Salzburg they will discuss BreXit and Theresa May will not be present. Is she still alive ? As you say May “was not present to discuss the future of her own country”
This is Jeremy Bowen’s report, which I referred to earlier on here, where he witnessed the destruction of a Palestinian village, Khan al Ahmar.
The action has been called unlawful by the UN but the Israeli government went ahead.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-45555534/khan-al-ahmar-the-west-bank-village-facing-demolition
In another video, he talks to Naftali Bennett, the Israeli minister.
Bennett was born in 1972 in Haifa to American parents who had settled in Israel after the 1967 Six Day War. That was the one when everyone fell for General Dayan heroics. Bennett has moved to and fro between Israel and America making a fortune in the process. The Palestinians in that village have been there ere long.
He is supremely arrogant and unflinching about Israel’s right to the land. He will not and does not see the irony.
‘It’s all about poking Israel in the eye politically’
Israeli cabinet minister Naftali Bennett says it’s no one else’s business where housing is built in Israel.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-45555536/naftali-bennett-it-s-all-about-poking-israel-in-the-eye-politically
On autoplay another video comes up showing the abandoned Palestinian airport in Gaza that Israel bombed in 2001.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-45504465/gaza-s-abandoned-airport-in-ruins
Jeremy Bowen oi oi oi! BBC’s friend of israhell giving a free ride to a propogandist.
israhell thrives on victimhood and putin is wise not to react in kind and engage directly. his correct line is that syria is a sovereign state, despite all attempts to wreck it, and is entitled to defend itself and its borders. the evidence of french engagement, isreahelli and proxy armies are sufficient evidence that the stables should be cleaned without overeaching. taking on israhell directly would be the excuse for a slaughter. recovering even the golan heights alone would be problematic.
has anyone told you that conflating a whole nation/people with its leaders is racist – doesn’t matter if it is Israel, Russia, UK or the US.
What is the evidence for French involvement?
Someone may well have been interfering with someone else’s signals here.
N_”What is the evidence for French involvement? Someone may well have been interfering with someone else’s signals here.” That’s the question I raised about six pages ago. Was the Illyushin sending a message about the Auvergne to Khmeimim when it was shot down? It had turned on its dogleg inland, and thus posed no physical threat to the Auvergne, though to the Syrian air defense it unfortunately seemed to be incoming, like the missiles. Only by raising the carcass of the Illyushin and seeing what kind of missile fragments are embedded in it, rather like a marine version of MH17, will we know the answer to who did it. As for why, that may have to do with
@ ‘SA September 18, 2018 at 19:41
‘Russia Registered Rocket Launches From French Frigate in Mediterranean on Monday’:
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809181068115950-russia-registered-missile-launches/
‘Russian ‘fake news’ machine going mad, says French envoy to U.S.’:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-france/russian-fake-news-machine-going-mad-says-french-envoy-to-u-s-idUKKCN1LY2D9
I prefer to trust the Russians rather than the French War Criminals.
Hopefully the wreckage from the cruise missiles will be traceable.
I think Russian radar systems know exactly what happened. The ELINT plane was picking up comms. It may use an over the horizon radar but in fact the warships at sea operate a radar screen – the trouble is that when an aircraft like an F-16s is “lit up” it responds with ECM.
It is pretty clear the Israelis used ECM to deflect missiles and probably jam radar. These SAM radars light up the object then switch off to prevent incoming fire down the radar track. No doubt the Israelis had a Gulfstream airborne with the Eitam radar.
The French ship Auvergne is on sea trials and is designed as FREMM ASW ship has a Thales radar which should have picked up Russian IL-20 and Israeli F-16s and any Israeli gunboat hiding in Auvergne’s radar shadow
US aircraft carrier Truman crosses Atlantic after threats to Syria
USS ‘Harry S. Truman’ is crossing the Atlantic after leaving the US east coast following last week’s drills. The movement of the carrier, used during the Middle East mission in April, comes in the wake of US threats to Damascus.
Sep 18, 2018 14:42
https://www.rt.com/usa/438740-uss-harry-truman-crosses-atlantic/
As other commentators have stated I agree that Putin’s comment was a bit weak. Also why is Syria supplied with antiquated air defence systems only? And why no response from Russian air defences in Latakia so close to their sit base. Even more pertinent why does the antiquated Syrian system take out a Russian plane? This exposes many vulnerabilities I am afraid and maybe it was a perfect French/Israeli joint trap to expose these vulnerabilities.
Only an Assad shill would ask himself those anguished questions and lament those “vulnerabilities”.
Poor stuff, Bostock.
Bostoc
How come Netanyoyo took USUKIS Isis oil from Erdogan and sold it to Assad?
A little bit of help is worth a lot of pity, as my farmer friend always used to say.
Because the oil pipelines run west from the oilfields in Syria. When ISIS were in charge the only way to get it out was by road tanker north to the pipeline in Turkey, then by sea tanker to Israel or back into Syria.
A pact with the devil.
Charles
I posed a n argument and asked a question. You chose to attack me personally with irrelevant ad hominem . Which of us is the dope?
Irrelevant ad hominems – not something you’d ever do, eh?
You never answered the question, more obfuscation.
And you do approve of the pirate like acts of Israel bombing Syria whenever they want. And by the way Syria and being pro Syria does not make you an Assad shill.
^^ Attack upon the person by Charles Bostock
There might be more cash to upgrade Syrian defence systems if the Assad clan stuffed less into their own bank accounts for their old age
Proof? Evidence? No, I didn’t think so.
Syria is the Assad family business, you clown. They own most of the country’s assets and stuff the profits into European property, most of which has thankfully now been seized.
One wonders seized by who for the benefit of who?
The Assad clan are indeed a bunch of crooks, but I’ll say one thing for them: they didn’t start a civil war in which 400,000 people have been killed and 11 million caused to flee from their homes.
“Syria is the Assad family business, you clown. They own most of the country’s assets and stuff the profits into European property, most of which has thankfully now been seized.” Apart from the insults, the evidence please.
Rowan
I suspect in Anon1’s little world Assad and Putin go house hunting for European property together. I’ve never even seen any allegations of what he says so I too will be interested to see the ‘evidence’.
The things people seek evidence for on here is fascinating.
Mad, global conspiracies are believed at the drop of the hat. Claims that murderous dictators are following the path of other murderous dictators in looting the wealth of their own countries and the noble opposition on here demand evidence.
Strange that.
Only if you conflate everyone who disagrees with you into an amorphous mass. Easily done; I have to repeatedly remind myself not to make the same mistake. It’s a common human failing.
SA
As has been said elsewhere on this thread, until now Russia have presumably put their faith in the agreement that Israel would give the Russians adequate warning before conducting an attack, precisely to take strategic steps to avoid an incident such as this and to reduce the risk of injuring or killing Syrians and/or Russians (civilian or military). Could anyone argue that one minute is “adequate warning”? It’s now a case of the Russians realising that they were misguided in being so trusting.
Bornfree
Maybe Putin signed up to the IHRC definition of AS
Since Putin owns an apartment in Tel Aviv, no doubt !
Yes but therein is the crux of the weakness. Do you really allow your ally to be bombed again and again because of some arrangement with s country known Not to be trusted?
SA
Panic not. This is the last, desperate attempt by cornered criminals who know the lasers of the armed police are trained on the empty space between their eyeballs. Russia and China are not going to let US, UK and IS conquer the globe with drug-crazed terrorists. Russia took a shot with the terrorist bomb on their flight from Egypt. Criminals will hit back, but that will only increase Russia and China’s determination to frustrate USUKIS.
@ SA September 18, 2018 at 19:41
It most certainly does appear to have been a deliberate trap, like the Turkish (American, I suspect, but called Turkish) palne that lurked below the mountain cover and downed the Russian fighter previously.
I disagree, the IAF did not have enough time to plan anything as it have advance warning that the Il-20 was going to be where it was at the time it was. As a consequence I doubt that the F-16s hid in the Il-20’s radar ‘shadow’, they were in, bomb launch and out as fast as they could. There would be no benefit to them in slowing down to the Il-20’s heading in to land speed, it never really was on their track as it had been Intel gathering over Idlib, well inland and was landing from the West as the wind was blowing from the East, hence the loop round to its fate.
The IAF, who acknowledge over 200 strikes in Syria over the past few years, were riding their luck. They know that there is always a hail of missiles following them home on strikes like this and to date, publicly, they have only lost one F-16. This time their fate changed, whilst they all got home a bystander got caught and the worst possible bystander, a significant manpower Russian plane.
Russia, given its objectives in the region, kinda has its hand tied behind its back as it can’t do anything overt against the IAF, also about half the Israeli population is ex Russia. We the public may never know what if any the retribution is but it will be a game changer.
We can be pretty certain that the phone lines were not only red hot into the Israeli MoD from Moscow but also Washington as well. This outcome was definitely not part of the plan, a set of tactical events has turned into a big strategic problem.
Events dear boy, events.
Johnny in MK, that’s all just couch-potato flimflam, I can feel the mental effort you made as you concocted it. You have no right at all to cap it with such a meaningless, pompous urbanity as that misquote from Macmillan. He never said: “Events, dear boy, events.” When asked to name the greatest difficulty facing a Prime Minister, his original phrase, “the opposition of events,” was altered by someone as yet unidentified. Source: Elizabeth Knowles (editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations): They Never Said That (OUP, 2006)
JohninMK’s points appear well reasoned, particularly the aspect of Israel needing to know the precise whereabouts of the IL20 in order to mask their own attack.
Is your theory as well reasoned?
In response to your last point, you may enjoy this article:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3577416/As-Macmillan-never-said-thats-enough-quotations.html
I don’t agree that Putin is being weak. Israel and Russia do have a partnership, particularly in relation to Syria. This wouldn’t be the first time the Israelis have been allowed to bomb somewhere in Syria. There is actually more to it than interests. After all, about 25% of the Israeli population comes from Russia and often their qualifications for being Jewish is tenuous in the extreme. Another interesting fact is that around 25% of the Israeli population hold double citizenship – Israeli and German.
How do you know Syria’s Air Defences are “antiquated” ? what air defences does UK have ?
The S-200 has been upgraded with new warheads. I suggest you read this review before making unfounded criticism…..only the S-400 has a longer range
http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/07/s-200-sam-system-site-analysis.html
USUKIS only has one problem, Russian control over Syrian airspace. Now that USUKIS has weakened that weakest link, after years of planning and recidivist malice, Putin will not give them the pleasure of losing his cool over this. Contrast that with Taz May’s supermarket tantrum over a false-flag attack in Salisbury or Hubris Johnson’s constantly baring his backside to the British public. The adults in the room can see the terrible twos need early bedtime and Calpol. Putin knew it wasn’t going to be easy being a parent, but hopes the kids will respond to care and love.
“Hubris Johnson’s constantly baring his backside to the British public”
You’re at it again with your anal and sexual imagery.
Can you not write a single post without referring to arses, genitals or whatever?
You’re not at pubic school any longer, get over it!
Bostok
How’s the war games going? Sorry a BBC reporter called it that. Unfortunately they have never left the safety of their laptops. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7257003/vostok-2018-russia-china-military-exercises/
The inadequacy of the English language means I have to use metaphor in order to describe the infantile stupidity of English politicians. If they behaved like adults I could use nicer metaphors. Like Barnier the Barn Owl, or Vladimir Pugin the global architect of the 21st century. nice words for nice people, nasty words for nasty people.
Hubris Johnson supports the torture-rendition-brain-washed jihadists. Based on that old colonial bedrock fantasy of the jolly old British Empire he jokingly composes insults against Islamists from post-boxes to suicide-vests. in so doing he has failed to observe that the Islamism the British invented to replace the Ottoman Empire they destroyed and replaced with Israel is the only policy they’ve got.
Erdogan has persuaded Russia to agree to Hubris’s Islamists being dis-armed and moved out of Idlib so that they can no longer threaten the Muslim population. If they are disarmed and isolated they will be rounded up and killed. Israel is trying to distract them right at the moment they at the point of removing Hubris / Shaytan’s only trick, by shooting their spy plane down. In reality, Russia will see this action as the last desperate act of the thrashing swamp-drained neo-cons.
Rise up Sir Vlad and Lord Xi, new overlords of the human universe. The neo-cons will be chained up in dungeons and our Queen will invite Putin’s representative in the UK to form a new parliament.
“Nanny Theresa May” is an anagram of “Mere NY Shaytanna”.
PS I love your use of language, @Giyane.
Come on, Charles – “Taz May’s supermarket tantrum” is really good. I think it’s Essex-speak.
On topic.
John Bostock
@jpbostock69
·
7h
John Bostock
#jpbostock69
“ I need to reinvent myself, give it the Hollywood treatment and get the tax payers to pay for it …put me through to Nick Robinson at the BBC”
https://twitter.com/jpbostock69/status/1042016978163183616
I see true publica has a post on the bias at the BBC:http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/bbc-updates-its-long-propaganda-history-with-new-scandal/
Why the surprise? Putin and Bibi are best buddies. Israel-Russia is like a love affair.
@ Anon1 September 18, 2018 at 21:15
Surely Bibi wouldn’t two-time you? The shameless hussy!
That look in Vlad’s eyes when he sees Bibi… find someone who looks at you like that .
CM – “Astonishingly sycophantic stuff from the state broadcaster.”
I see that the BBC R4 Toady programme had the BBC’s favourite commentator (Nigel Farage) on today:-
https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/09/18/the-reason-everyone-is-furious-with-the-bbc-and-nigel-farage-today/
Farage is a credibility bolt-on which the Tories can buy when their credibility has run out. Most people who voted for Brexit because they don’t want Germany and France telling us what to do are appalled at Mrs May hijacking Brexit to her party’s populist racism. We enjoy the rich racial mix we live in and we don’t agree with Mrs May’s gross racism. People enjoy going abroad and that is going to become much more difficult after May’s nasty Brexit. Drawbridge up , portcullis down. Non-Tories stretched on the rack in the dungeons, or left to sleep on the street.
” People enjoy going abroad and that is going to become much more difficult after May’s nasty Brexit.”
You made this false assertation previously and you were corrected on it, even after you falsely invoked Schengen as a defence. And here you are, back making your false claim again. What does that make you?
St.Theresa bowled a blinder in that interview, primetime middle class sunday morning viewing, clad in virgin white, believe me… she tried to make out that there is only one route. Her route.
Sycofantic, even robotic one would say.
Is Putin weak for taking a hit? Will he ensure that future rogue actions are parried? Or is the air hegemony been left to Syria and or rogue intruders to control?
And why is there a virtual news blackout on what is going on in Syria?
nevermind
time to get rid of your TV. TV = tell whoppers
@ nevermind September 18, 2018 at 21:42
Israel, probably in conjunction with the French and US, laid the trap, but it was Syrian AA fire that brought the Russian plane down.
So it is not an easy situation to respond to.
I believe Russia will respond, in it’s own way and in it’s own time.
Meanwhile, we here need to keep up our exposure of what is really going on, to the best of our ability, which I know many do, not least our host, Craig.
Yes, Putin is well aware of the narrow path he must follow with Russia well capable of defending itself but unable to take on the US in the rest of the world. The problem he has is that his caution can be interpreted by neocons as weakness.
I suspect that RuAF interceptor aircraft in Syria will be significantly increased together with upping the ability of the SyAF SAM batteries both by moving S-300 systems into them for the first time and increasing the number of short range Pantsir AA systems. This will be in an attempt to shut the IAF out of Syria.
Its the S-300s missiles and radar quality and range that appear to be the game changer. Both the US and Israel recognize this and have done all they can to keep them out of Syria. It will be ironic if, through being too clever by half on this strike, the IAF have given the Russians/Syrians an open door to walk through by clearly showing that the old S-200 is no longer up to the job of defending the country.
Incidentally, the Russians are saying that this particular strike was not made using missiles, the IAF used the latest generation US Small Diameter Bomb, basically a standard iron bomb with wings and guidance that can be lobbed by an aircraft and, depending on launch speed and height, has a maximum range of around 100 miles. Very difficult to defend against, hence the Pantsir system of guns and missiles.
@ JohninMK September 18, 2018 at 22:51
‘…Incidentally, the Russians are saying that this particular strike was not made using missiles, the IAF used the latest generation US Small Diameter Bomb, basically a standard iron bomb with wings and guidance that can be lobbed by an aircraft and, depending on launch speed and height, has a maximum range of around 100 miles….’
Sort of like a Dam Busters’ bouncing bomb, without the bounces.
Good analysis. I wonder if anyone knows what or who the French frigate fired missiles at? And why?
There now seems to be little evidence that the French, or anyone else, actually fired anything. Claims made in the confusion and disinformation at the time.
Rather than the bouncing bomb more like the German Fritz-X WW2 guided bomb.
There seems to have been a UK Tornado overhead watching for a while whilst en route to eastern Syria.
From past experience, it’s entirely possible the French frigate fired off a boatload of missiles and they went… nowhere in particular. Last time the USA attacked Syria, the French ship involved coughed and spluttered and accomplished nothing.
Russia can take on the US without any great difficulty – it will however be by ending life on earth.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/05/09/mapping-us-nuclear-war-plan-1956/
Putin’s brother died in Siege of Leningrad – maybe he thinks of this man when he considers policy……….arrogant people in The West we this man their lives……..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
Paul Barbara
If what you say is true, that justifies Russia holding back from giving Assad better anti-aircraft technology before. Assad was the West’s ally for a long time so maybe the West has turned him round.
Russia never tolerates CIA interference in her interests and it is within their power to remove Assad.
China has to make up its mind still whether to divert the Silk Road through NATO’s Turkey or restore the original through Syria. It’s a simple choice between Erdogan’s bonkers Islamism which could capillary back up the road to China, and a new democratically elected government in Syria which Russia has the ability to organise.
Whatever the neo-con nutters plan, God has a better plan. The failure of Tory policy in Syria, brought in by Cameron and Hague , to use brain-washed Islamists, opens the door for all those who hate the dictator Assad and his clan to realise their dreams and have a new government. Tories and Assad, two birds with one stone. Someone’s going to regret shooting that spy plane down.
giyane
What evidence do you have that Syria was an ally if the westfor a long time ?
Since USSR first recognised Syrian Independence in 1946 and there was a Mutual Friendship Treaty from c 1981 and USSR supplied military hardware and Syria was closely allied with GDR – it seems absurd to claim Syria was in the Baghdad Pact (CENTO) – it was not.
Assad Jr was attempting to bridge the divide since he trained in London and his wife was born in UK. He had visits from Blair and from Brooks Newmark inter alia and probably hoped to start some reforms.
Britain first plotted overthrow of Syrian Arab Republic 1957 under Harold Macmillan – it has a long history. The comatose and relatively stupid British have little idea how they are viewed in much of the world – as Schemers and Plotters – Ugandans believe Idi Amin was put in place by British; just as Iran has not forgotten the Labour Govt using the Royal Navy to intimidate Mossadeq so UK could protect its profit from Iranian oil………Chinese have not forgotten opium……
British Forgetfulness is not matched by similar Ignorance abroad
while Nick Robinson orchestrates Theresa May to blow her own trumpet it’s been reported there are now 14 million people living in poverty under her governance, of which 6.9 million are families with a disabled person, and 4.5 million are children.
That’s one in five and one in ten of the population.
Somehow the meaning of the words poverty and disabled have significantly changed over the years.
Two very similar ‘news’ stories here, fake Meeja stories and designer lies, leading in one case to a nice new “Murdoch” kitchen and the other story to civil-war or perhaps a Steele kitchen? WW3. . .
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/news-opinion/michael-foot-russian-spy-times-2011172
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/406881-lisa-page-bombshell-fbi-couldnt-prove-trump-russia-collusion-before-mueller
Anyone pointed this post out yet? – https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2018-09-15/why-were-blind-to-the-system-destroying-us/ god save our children, grand children et al. 🙁
Yes, Jonathan Cook seems to have his eye on the ball. A similar argument was put forward by Herbert Marcuse in One-Dimensional Man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Dimensional_Man.
Two excellent links. Thank you both.
Why is it that so many right-wingers consider Russia to be some kind of model society deserving of our permanent admiration.
I have to say I was doubtful about the rights and wrongs of the Skripal case and Russia’s role in it at a state level. The whole things remains a bizarre case. I am also aware that the US and NATO have flagrantly broken a formal promise they made to Russia when it allowed Germany to be re-united not to move troops eastward beyond the borders of Germany.
However Russia is a lawless state and despite its enormous wealth of natural resources it has signally failed to bring its people prosperity. Instead it hides behind an aura of moral virtue, smugly expressing at every possible opportunity its supposed moral superiority over Europe and the West. But then this is a permanent feature of Russia – not just with Putin, but under the communists and under the Tsars.
Patmur
When British foreign policy for over 150 years has been to support Islamist terror, and to divide and rule, it’s not hard for Russia to claim moral and intellectual superiority. USUKIS have lost the Great Game. The financial services industry crashed and our industrial base has been exported to the Far East.
USUKIS Islamist terror has destroyed Muslim country after Muslim country in our lifetime. Does that make you feel morally superior that British policy has destroyed so many places and so many lives?
It makes Israeli and British politicians feel morally superior, to have the power to destroy and reduce other countries to ruins.
Change a few words and it’s the Western alliance:
– “it hides behind an aura of moral virtue, smugly expressing at every possible opportunity its supposed moral superiority over
Europe and the WestRussia and its official enemies in the Middle East”Patmur,
Really?
I think, if you read and watch further you’ll find that across the political spectrum people and pundits consider Russia to be diplomaticaly fighting for the planet right now against the insane and dying FUKUSIS imperial nightmare.
Russia is NOT a lawless state. As the right pundits like to point out they have their own clause 28 now. I don’t approve that but it makes my point. It certainly doesn’t support ongoing screeching liberals who claim homosexuality is illegal in Russia.
“Failed to bring its people prosperity” – you are of course aware of “economic sanctions” – a form of warfare.
smuggly expressing…. just rabid xenophobic BS from that point on.
Why is it that so many right-wingers consider Russia to be some kind of model society
Do they ? Is there such a thing as a “model society” in 2018 ?
Most people simply think Russians should be left in peace to live as they choose. They are so broadminded as to believe Muslims should live in peace too without being droned or bombed – quite why the USA cannot house and feed its people but chooses to spend $4 Trillion on wars in the Middle East is surreal. When you complain about the NHS remember the two floating gin palaces without aircraft costing £6 billion and the £19 billion in aircraft ordered to sit on the flight deck and the huge costs of maintenance on this £140 million plane
“Why is it that so many right-wingers consider Russia to be some kind of model society deserving of our permanent admiration”.
If one is disposed to look for “ideal models” in this very imperfect world, one is likely to end up looking towards Russia.
Is the USA an “ideal model” of what society should be? I am inclined to think not. Starting out a few hundred years ago with an entire virgin continent, its resources untapped by agriculture or industry, and its inhabitants living sustainably in tune with nature, the USA has managed to become a frightful warning about the dangers of industrialisation, pollution, militarism and the concentration of wealth. Not to mention the rise to dominance of literally insane ways of thinking.
The UK used to be, at least, a little less ready to rush into adopting the latest fashion. But it is coming to resemble the USA more and more. And the disease is sweeping across most of the world: Western Europe; Canada, Australia and New Zealand and it is seeping into the other continents – encouraged by the US MICCC and those who, having scooped up about half of the world’s wealth, are now seeking to grab the rest and leave everyone else to starve.
What do we see in Russia? Decent old-fashioned traditional values, although the legacy of serfdom and the USSR have laid enormous handicaps on it. Yet serfdom was abolished in Russia before slavery was abolished in the USA. And the USSR did eventually dissolve itself, freeing Russia to resume the path of civilised progress it was following before 1917.
Since Mr Putin took over in 2000, Russia has probably made more and faster progress in every way than any other civilised nation in history. And that gives us a strong clue why so many are desperate to put him down and get rid of him.
“However Russia is a lawless state…”
I am astonished that the hand that wrote those words did not burst into flames and drop off.
Mr Putin has suffered great aggravation and trouble because of his devotion to obeying the law – the letter and spirit of the law – in every situation. While there are many people in Russia who despise and ignore the law, Mr Putin’s government is tackling them and gradually defeating them, and the huge majority of decent law-abiding citizens recognize that this is very much in their interests. The oligarchs who fled Russia and took up residence in the USA, UK and other Western states are outstanding examples of outlaws, and they quickly understood that there was no room for them in the law-abiding Russian state run by Mr Putin. (However they are welcomed with open arms by the West, which is happy to ignore their crimes as long as it can share in their money).
Meanwhile who is distinguished by utter contempt for all laws? Obviously the US government and its political elites. They ignore international laws and treaties, the UN Charter, the Nuremberg Principles, and their own federal, state and local laws – they even trample on their own Constitution.
The British government is no better. What do you make of Mrs May standing up in the House of Commons and lecturing the world about “butcher Assad”, or claiming – with no evidence – that the Russian government is responsible for the alleged poisonings in Salisbury and Amesbury?
And what do you make of the Israeli government alleging, disgustingly, that the shooting down of the Russian aircraft was Syria’s fault? When Syria was the innocent victim of yet more arbitrary and wholly illegal attacks by Israel? Israel has no right to attack Syria, yet it boasts of having done so hundreds of times, killing hundreds or thousands of Syrians.
The USA, Britain, France and other NATO members have absolutely no legal right to set one foot inside Syria, or to fly one foot inside its airspace. Yet they habitually ignore Syria’s rights as a sovereign nation, international law and the UN Charter.
And you say that “Russia is a lawless state”. There should be a special place of punishment for those who go around asserting the exact opposite of the truth – even if they have to do so to earn their living.
Well said, Tom. I fully agree. Regarding your penultimate paragraph it’s laughable and inexcusable that the Western media are forever publishing articles about Russian jets displaying ‘threatening and antagonistic’ behaviour when they approach NATO aircraft in international airspace. So it’s even got to the point where Russians aren’t allowed to use international airspace – that’s now in the possession of the Western/NATO alliance. When was the last time the MSM condemned all those countries invading Syrian territory (airspace and land) illegally? The silence is deafening. Hypocrisy at its worst.
“supposed moral superiority” – I suggest you omit the word “supposed”.
Fact is stranger than fiction.
Anyone following the multiple strands of Trump (and his family’s) various legal jeopardies, may be interested in this NYT overview and the tweets of this specialist impeachment lawyer. Makes fascinating reading:
” Ross Garber
Verified account
@rossgarber
10h10 hours ago
More
This @maggieNYT piece puts too much blame on Dowd. Yes, I never really got the cooperate and pray approach. But the legal operation has always been way too thin. Main issue is likely a client who doesn’t realize the scope or depth of the problem.’
” Trump’s Growing Legal Team Has a Problem: It’s Operating Partly in the Dark ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/us/politics/trump-legal-team-lawyers.html
If you find yourself behind the paywall, google the article title, then click to it and you’ll find yourself in the right place.
Follow this guy if you want incisive updates.
https://twitter.com/rossgarber?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
An important point he makes:
Ross Garber
@rossgarber
4h4 hours ago
More
An unfettered investigation of a president by executive branch personnel just isn’t contemplated by our Constitution. Congress is the check on the president.
‘The Dirty Little Secret About Why the USA is in Syria’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=605G8FMeO6Y
Very interesting and accurate documentary. Jake Morphonios (Blackstone Intelligence) spells it all out very well.
Thanks for link. Excellent video and interesting YouTube channel. I had a look at some of his other videos and found one about the Skripals. Not sure if it has been posted before but well worth a look considering the amount of comments about it previously
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D2r5lY1sF08
In light of the sense I’m getting that many on here misunderstand the situation in Syria, I think it’s time to re-evaluate where we are right now. Let’s stick to uncontroversial facts and important stuff.
1) If it wasn’t for Russian involvement, Syria (like Iraq, Gaza, and Libya) would basically be a mass grave. It’s pretty safe to guess that maybe half a million Syrians owe their lives to Russia as it stands, probably more.
2) As a consequence of Western behaviour over the last 15 years, international law as we know it no longer exists — it’s gone. Note the callous disregard shown by Israel, the US, and others when it comes to bombing the sovereign state of Syria. There isn’t even the pretence of respect for the UN or international law any more.
And that’s pretty much it. Syria is an international punch bag but if it wasn’t for Russia it would be a charnel house. I guessed today that Russia would respond by bolstering its air defences in Syria and based on what Putin has said that looks like the plan.
The real test will come when one of Israel’s or America’s planes get blasted out of the sky over Syria and that is almost inevitably going to happen quite soon.
The best we can hope for in the absence of international law is that Russia and perhaps China stand up to the mass murderers who are at the root of all this. Appeasement, as we learned in the 1930s, doesn’t work.
I’m happy with that analysis.
When I say “happy”…
lol as long as you’re happy, squire..
seconded, but I think you underestimate the casualties by several millions.
naturally, giyane, it’s difficult to find accurate figures on that stuff.
But I’m up early to film wildlife and don’t want to think of these things…
@ HatueySeptember 19, 2018 at 00:00
I also agree. If you watch the video linked above your comment, it gives a very good assessment of the Syrian situation.
From the same stable:
‘The Rothschild Syria Connection – Major Revelations’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhTMy9ma2mQ
Very good video documentary, lots of info on Trump (and who’s backing him), but not sure about the Rothschild telling the West to attack Syria, as it seems the primary source was your News Wire, which often puts out fake news.
Though it would make sense.
I’ll watch tomorrow but I’m guessing when you say Rothschild you mean oil… everything comes down to oil in the region. Regarding Rothschild telling the west to attack Syria, it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest. Have a look at who has stakes in Genie Oil & Gas etc… if I remember right even Murdoch has a pinch (that’s right, the same Murdoch who runs various news outlets etc…) Actually, the only thing I’d question there is the idea that they’d need to “tell” the West to attack — if they did so they’d only be telling themselves. These crooks are the West.
Actually, the biggest issue is Assad refusing to let a Qatari gas pipeline cross Syria into Turkey to supply Europe.
Russian vs Qatari gas: Putin’s price for protecting Assad is safeguarding Russian gas markets in Europe.
Israel wants the Golan for oil and settlements. US wants to cut away the oil rich NW Syria as well.
So all in all a murderous free-for-all.
Of course, Assad and the Syrians must cede their mineral wealth for nothing. The West said so, so it must be true.
Yes but since Saudi blockaded Qatar and the Garfield is jointly explored by Qatar and Iran the Qatar’s have an option to use the Iranian pipeline. Qatar and al-Jazeera are simply stuck in a legacy mode competing with Saudi for influence among terrorists in US/UK/Jordan Embedded Units with Spec Ops forces. Qatar host the biggest US base and Turkey is setting up a base there too as Saudi tries to dig a moat around Qatar
The Melian Dialogue, as recorded by Thucydides nearly 2,500 years ago, is still as true as it was when he wrote it down.
“For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences – either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us – and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”.
All the laws and treaties and negotiations of which we are so proud have been necessary (and possible) only “between equals in power”. In other words, men negotiate and invoke the law when they are not sure they can get everything they want by force.
When they believe that they have no equals in power, and can get everything by force, they dispense with all respect for laws and promises. The main difference between the ancient Athenians and the modern Americans and Israelis is this: the Athenians were bluntly honest about their expectations and intentions, whereas the Americans and Israelis, while having no respect for law, make a great pretence of worshipping it. They do this in the hope of conning others into doing their will without having to go to the trouble of fighting.
The logic of that sounds very much like the sort of thing Thomas Hobbes would agree with — where there is no law, there nothing can be unjust, etc., etc.
I think the reason that the Americans and the West has to cloak everything on lies is down to the audience at home, rather than winning over potential allies, and the prevalence of what we call “democracy”.
Democracy is as much about propaganda as it is about elections. They can’t openly admit that they’re attacking Iraq or whoever because they want oil. If they did they’d be justifying theft and all manner of things. That wouldn’t work. And, more importantly, they wouldn’t be able to count on public support for a war along those lines.
Actually it’s very difficult to make a cogent argument for attacking anybody when you get right down to it. The only compelling argument is some derivative of; “that they attacked us, may attack us, or are preparing to attack us”.
Like the boy who cried wolf, few people believe their lies today.
“The only compelling argument is some derivative of; “that they attacked us, may attack us, or are preparing to attack us”. 9/11, cough, false flag terrorsim, cough
Haaretz in reporting the IL-20 shootdown, wrote: “Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns.” Given the alleged involvement by the French frigate as well, perhaps we are looking at something involving rather more actors?
@ John Gilberts September 19, 2018 at 01:34
That makes it even more likely it was a set-up.
We’re in this strange limbo waiting for two sets of promised “steps”: Britgov’s against Russia and its GRU, and Russia’s to give added protection to its forces in Syria.
Meanwhile Kol Nidre is over and Storm Ali (could we really make this up?), triple witching and the powerful ritual planned for the equinox all approach.
A map..that can be authenticated –
https://thesaker.is/russia-blames-israel-for-the-shooting-down-of-her-ew-aircraft/
Dreoilin… Sorry for Premature thinking that you were Gone.. Clark is correct.
We Should Consider Nature more Often
A wee Haiku – By Me –
Grows Winters Crystals
Softly Frozen Water Beads
Twinkling on the Trees
Thanks Brian! Love the haiku.
‘Hacked/Censored: Israel’s Fatal Attack Part of Coverup of Their Role in Idlib Gas Attack Child Abductions (updating)’:
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/09/18/hacked-censored-israels-fatal-attack-part-of-coverup-of-their-role-in-idlib-gas-attack-child-abductions/
‘..From Haaretz moments ago:
The Syrian and Russian air forces and air-defense batteries work together, in joint operation rooms and air-traffic control centers. The Syrians use Russian-made aircraft and missiles. The Ilyushin would have been equipped with IFF (identification, friend or foe) transponders and both militaries will have procedures to prevent “friendly fire” incidents. A Syrian anti-aircraft missile, made in Russia, should not have shot down a friendly Russian aircraft.
We now have doubts contradicting Russia’s claim that the shoot down was accidental. It is unlikely that a Syrian S200 would or could hit a Russian aircraft with IFF (Identify Friend/Foe) transponder, even if shadowed by Israeli F 16s. This is Israel’s new version of events from Haaretz:
“Something was obviously going on Monday night. Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns – most likely to avoid being somehow involved in the exchange of fire over Latakia. The Ilyushin Il-20 was not so fortunate….’
‘…Our sources in Idlib, who traveled in as delivery drivers from Hatay, Turkey, have been tripping over Israeli “journalists” and “videographers” working hand in hand with the White Helmets and contractors for Britain’s MI 6.
Using British supplied poison gas and Israeli personnel, along with al Qaeda, all under the watchful eyes of Turkey’s security services, kids have been kidnapped and gassed while White Helmet terrorists drag their little bodies back and forth like rag dolls….’
So Is*ael was one of the ‘Middle Eastern countries’ who Russia had previously said had film crews in Idlib for the fake CW attack filming. Makes perfect sense.
Gordon Duff uses Vanessa Beeley’s article, which they published the night before:
‘White Helmets stealing children for ‘chemical attack’ theater in Idlib’:
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/438645-children-kidnapped-idlib-syria/
@Paul Barbara
Good link to VT,which is providing ongoing coverage of the situation without a prearranged agenda
Very interesting. I think you’re right, something serious occurred that night and the official story doesn’t add up. That said, I would guess that the likes of the RAF, French Air Force, and the USAF, have planes in the sky over and around Syria all the time.
There’s no real sense though that the Russians are at a heightened state of agitation or anger though. They are signalling a sort of grudging acceptance and I think they know they need to invest more in Syria in terms of hardware if they want to make an impression and avoid any sort of humiliation.
Some public information about ladt nights sleep pattern.
Could not get to sleep due to large jet movements west to east at around midnight. When eventually, after thinking about all the nightly manouvres, i got some kipp, i was awake when the next lot flew over early this morning.
What could they be up to….contingencies are being moved to prepare for Bibis bithday flyby?
Or could it be that St. Therroresa wants to rattle Putins door in Estonia/Latvia?
He’s sounding desperate for attention. He has tweeted four times about his Panorama.
https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson
Another self publicist was on ITV this morning. The warmonger’s spin doctor – Alastair Campbell was flogging the eighth volume of his Diaries – Alastair Campbell Diaries: Volume 8 – On the slide to Cameron, 2010 – 2015. Piers Morgan was crawling round him as there are several mentions of him within! Can’t imagine there is much of market for Campbell’s stuff apart from the Blairite luvvies.
Campbell’s publisher is Biteback Publications. Jointly owned by Iain Dale and Ashcroft Holdings. Indeed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biteback_Publishing
Their authors’ index – ‘M’ – Douglas Murray, Denis MacShane, Jim Murphy, Damian McBride, Kelvin McKenzie. And Katie Hopkins in ‘H’. Enough said.
Biteback publish books about politics. Some of their authors are on the left, like Angela Eagle and Yasmin Alibhai Brown. Bloomsbury published Douglas Murray’s last work – The Strange Death of Europe, it was a bestseller for them.
https://www.thebookseller.com/news/bloomsburys-consumer-division-rises-20-658051
I really recommend it – I have a signed copy.
On the left like Eagle and Brown … ya ya, that is so funny.
The spinmeister still being given a platform and wonga – he and they know that the incoming Labour govt is finally going lay charges that they thought they would never face!
John Helmer: Putin’s Forfeit – From Strategic Mistake to Strategic Defeat in 24 Hours
http://johnhelmer.net/putins-forfeit-from-strategic-mistake-to-strategic-defeat-in-24-hours/