Like many, my first thought at the interview of Boshirov and Petrov – which apparently are indeed their names – is that they were very unconvincing. The interview itself seemed to be set up around a cramped table with a poor camera and lighting, and the interviewer seemed pretty hopeless at asking probing questions that would shed any real light.
I had in fact decided that their story was highly improbable, until I started seeing the storm of twitter posting, much of it from mainstream media journalists, which stated that individual things were impossible which were, in fact, not impossible at all.
The first and most obvious regards the weather on 3 and 4 March. It is in fact absolutely true that, if the two had gone down to Salisbury on 3 March with the intention of going to Stonehenge, they would have been unable to get there because of the snow. It is therefore perfectly possible that they went back the next day to try again; and public transport out of Salisbury was still severely disrupted, and many roads closed, on 4 March. Proof of this is not at all difficult to find.
This image is from the Salisbury Journal’s liveblog on 4 March.
Those mocking the idea that the pair were blocked by snow from visiting Stonehenge have pointed to the CCTV footage of central Salisbury not showing snow on the afternoon of 4 March. Well, that is central Salisbury, it had of course been salted and cleared. Outside there were drifts.
So that part of their story in fact turns out not to be implausible as social media is making out; in fact it fits precisely with the actual facts.
The second part of their story that has brought ridicule is the notion that two Russians would fly to the UK for the weekend and try to visit Salisbury. This ridicule has been very strange to me. Weekend breaks – arrive on Friday and return on Sunday – are a standard part of the holiday industry. Why is it apparently unthinkable that Russians fly on weekend breaks as well as British people?
Even more strange is the idea that it is wildly improbable for Russian visitors to wish to visit Salisbury cathedral and Stonehenge. Salisbury Cathedral is one of the most breathtaking achievements of Norman architecture, one of the great cathedrals of Europe. It attracts a great many foreign visitors. Stonehenge is world famous and a world heritage site. I went on holiday this year and visited Wurzburg to see the Bishop’s Palace, and then the winery cooperative at Sommerach. Because somebody does not choose to spend their leisure time on a beach in Benidorm does not make them a killer. Lots of people go to Salisbury Cathedral.
There seems to be a racist motif here – Russians cannot possibly have intellectual or historical interests, or afford weekend breaks.
The final meme which has worried me is “if they went to see the cathedral, why did they visit the Skripal house?” Well, no evidence at all has been presented that they visited the Skripal house. They were captured on CCTV walking past a petrol station 500 yards away – that is the closest they have been placed to the Skripal house.
The greater mystery about these two is, if they did visit the Skripal House and paint Novichok on the doorknob, why did they afterwards walk straight past the railway station again and head into Salisbury city centre, where they were caught window shopping in a coin and souvenir shop with apparently not a care in the world, before eventually returning to the train station? It seems a very strange attitude to a getaway after an attempted murder. In truth their demeanour throughout the photographs is consistent with their tourism story.
The Russians have so far presented this pair in a very unconvincing light. But on investigation, the elements of their story which are claimed to be wildly improbable are not inconsistent with the facts.
There remains the much larger question of the timing.
The Metropolitan Police state that Boshirov and Petrov did not arrive in Salisbury until 11.48 on the day of the poisoning. That means that they could not have applied a nerve agent to the Skripals’ doorknob before noon at the earliest. But there has never been any indication that the Skripals returned to their home after noon on Sunday 4 March. If they did so, they and/or their car somehow avoided all CCTV cameras. Remember they were caught by three CCTV cameras on leaving, and Borishov and Petrov were caught frequently on CCTV on arriving.
The Skripals were next seen on CCTV at 13.30, driving down Devizes road. After that their movements were clearly witnessed or recorded until their admission to hospital.
So even if the Skripals made an “invisible” trip home before being seen on Devizes Road, that means the very latest they could have touched the doorknob is 13.15. The longest possible gap between the novichok being placed on the doorknob and the Skripals touching it would have been one hour and 15 minutes. Do you recall all those “experts” leaping in to tell us that the “ten times deadlier than VX” nerve agent was not fatal because it had degraded overnight on the doorknob? Well that cannot be true. The time between application and contact was between a minute and (at most) just over an hour on this new timeline.
In general it is worth observing that the Skripals, and poor Dawn Sturgess and Charlie Rowley, all managed to achieve almost complete CCTV invisibility in their widespread movements around Salisbury at the key times, while in contrast “Petrov and Boshirov” managed to be frequently caught in high quality all the time during their brief visit.
This is especially remarkable in the case of the Skripals’ location around noon on 4 March. The government can only maintain that they returned home at this time, as they insist they got the nerve agent from the doorknob. But why was their car so frequently caught on CCTV leaving, but not at all returning? It appears very much more probable that they came into contact with the nerve agent somewhere else, while they were out.
I shall write a further post on these timing questions shortly.
To my mind tbe plot seems very similar to Agatha Christie’s ABC murders. A fall guy (2 in this case) are sent on what they think are innocent trips – perhaps as part of some jape. Perhaps they we told it was a training exercise. They knew nothing of the real motive behind it. The actual murderer was a highly trained operative who was unobserved . The behaviour of these 2 seems all too obvious – didn’t try to cover their faces, never changed clothes, always traveledl as an obvious pair. The plot thickens.
This is pretty much the conclusion I reached. If seems they flew around Europe 30 times through last autumn and this spring (source DT.) My view is they are probably couriers of some sort and were set up, but there are several possible options..A couple of weeks back there were also hints the actual hit might have been by a local “sleeper”.
I do think if the UK government is going to abandon all due process, they should
at least release some hard evidence to back their allegations, like their real names and ranks in the GRU. I see also Met Commissioner Neil Basru has made an appeal for confirmation of their “real” identities.
Meanwhile, according to Security minister Ben Wallace, the perfume bottle has apparently mutated into one single bottle, carefully restored by the assassins after used back to its pristine state and deposited in a local charity bin where it remained not only unnoticed but miraculously band box fresh until Charlie Rowley found it several months later.
I also have another question. If the security services did not identify the novichok agent in the perfume bottle in Charlie’s kitchen until he recovered and pointed it out, how did they find the minute traces they claim were in the Russians hotel room?. Is there some sort of Novichok Geiger counter? Who verified it, staff from Porton Down? Maybe for the elimination of doubt they could make a statement confirming it?
Is it true that Skripal means violin in Russian?
Man Sergey Skripal (Скрипаль), musical instrument – violin (скрипка). The Russian word “скрип” is translated as creak. But this is not a Russian name, and Ukrainian. Violinist (rus.- скрипач) in Ukrainian – Скрипаль, Skripal
Jobs done. We’re all concentrating in two dodgy Russians and that’s enough to condemn a Nation . Meanwhile, back in central control, sighs of relief all round as the story now has its own legs and is running away from the truth as fast as Al Quaeda in Idlib
Dear Craig,
what is your view on these statements concerning the passports?
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/14/skripal-poisoning-suspects-passport-data-shows-link-security-services/
1. This form is for self-completion. Take this form and write on it what you want.
I am Russian, believe me as a native speaker (and excuse me for my English). There are turns of speech for conversation and for office work. “Сведений не давать” (Information not to give) – so say not very educated people or those who are unfamiliar with the language. That’s right – “Сведения не предоставлять”
2. “Letter S. S.” – just funny, spy thriller. (C. C. – Совершенно Секретно – top secret) Secret documents are kept in secret institutions.
3. Aeroflot’s passenger manifest.
On-line registration is not the date of purchase of tickets. When I fly without luggage, I always do so. On-line registration is usually available one day before departure. This saves time on boarding.
I think that all these articles are intended for one – to take the viewer far from the main thing – the lack of evidence of guilt.
You have exposed enough real evidence for everyone to know the truth; that all the hype about these two tourists as the Skripal perps is total deceit.
I find it so confusing as the couple who found a perfume bottle sealed in a box with liquid in it , if that was novochock, why would an assassin have that much left over and toss it into a charity bin which was found by the couple. two months later?, And why hasn’t any key in the hotel the Russians stayed in had no effect from the novochock that was supposed to be in the hotel room?
Should have read why anybody in the hotel who went in that room after the Russians had no effec5from novochock which was supposed to have been found later?
Since we now hear they were partying with a hooker in the room she no doubt brought her own Nina Ricci perfume from the MI5 sales office with her. I see the room price has gone up in later editions from £58 to £75 but why let facts get in the way of good fiction. This could be a series – I always found the X-Files had the aura of a warehouse in Vancouver without any light bulbs but I think this could be a much better TV series provided there are some decent roles for Old Etonian actors who seem to be the preferred casting nowadays
We are all looking forward to your further findings on this murky event. If you can, please tell us what if anything is known about the two DCs who were each admitted to hospital after the Skirpals and Sturgess. What has Rowley remembered about where he got the perfume bottle and where he disposed of it? What has the hospital said about what killed Sturgess? Why did it take two months for the police to take swabs in Soho? And now, following the latest news from the Dutch, who were the two Russians who tried to get into Speiz? Surely not our tourist friends who go to European cities regularly?
Rowley has been to prison for drug wraps – is he out on licence ? I bet the police and probation service keep him aware of his status
“is he out on licence ? I bet the police and probation service keep him aware of his status”
Here we jump from is he to he is. Well done.
Excellent points. Millions of people travel from Europe to the UK for the weekend. It’s a short flight.
Scotland Yard seems to have succeeded in making it look bad for the Russians. UK media say
“Investigators said they had identified the suspected perpetrators of the Novichok attack by crossing referencing CCTV feeds with records of people who entered the country around that time. ”
The question is, did they do this CCTV work after the “Skripal poisoning” — or beforehand?
Were MI6 and Porton Down scanning the CCTV for some Russians to frame, then pick the time frame of their target victim “suspects,” and then stop by from Porton Down to poison the Skripals?
Coincidence in time is not proof of causation — although it MAY look like it.
So now they choose the time to “reveal” the photos — when they most need war hysteria for the attack on Syria.
Why scan CCTV when you have advance warning of anyone entering UK from passenger manifests transmitted pre-flight. You also have visa data specifying date of travel. You know who is entering the country unless they come in the back of a truck through Calais and smuggling Chechen hit men in that route would be totally undetectable
Thank you Craig. This is the only piece I have read so far which actually pieces together the details of this case in a provably coherent manner. I am curious as to what you think of the claim made by the police that traces of Novachok were found in the Russian men’s hotel room.
It does not piece anything together, the following is missing: “Stonehenge
Verified account @EH_Stonehenge
Mar 4 We’re looking forward to giving all our visitors a warm welcome to Stonehenge today. We’re open until 5pm with last tickets at 3pm”.
On Sunday Stonehenge was open and public transport ran services to the monument as they do on every day the site is open to the public.
So there was no snow and no roads were obstructed in any way ? The train companies were making tired excuses again about weather ! Figures….you simply cannot trust British institutions
Ian, give it a rest.
The two Russians had plenty of time to look around Salisbury on the Saturday (i.e. there were no time constraints on them), so their planned itinerary on that day was to visit Salisbury Cathedral and Old Sarum (both within walking distance) then hop on a bus to visit Stonehenge.
But the bad weather on THAT day meant that they didn’t manage to reach any of those attractions.
But the situation on the SUNDAY was very different – this was their last day, and there was a flight to catch – so they decided (sensibly, in my book) to limit themselves to those places that could be reached on foot.
Stonehenge wasn’t dropped from their SUNDAY itinerary because of the weather.
It was dropped because of TIME i.e. catching a bus, poking around the stones, then catching another bus back to Salisbury was not a viable proposition when they still had to get back to London, pick up their bags, and then head off to the airport.
Ian: “On Sunday Stonehenge was open and public transport ran services to the monument as they do on every day the site is open to the public.”
Who f**king cares?
Boshirov and Petrov certainly didn’t, precisely because they didn’t have the TIME left to waste on that bus trip.
Saturday, yes, if the weather had been good. But on the SUNDAY, no, time would have beaten them.
It’s very clearly a set-up, a very incompetent set up.While May’s hand points determinedly towards two innocent Russians, most of us see the hand pointing towards her. My reaction, from the word ‘go’, has been, “What is she up to?” “Why is she trying to copy American False Flag operations? How much was Charlie Rowley paid to corroborate with their bullshit story? May is probably the worst, and most unconvincing liar I’ve ever come across, which is odd, because she seems to practice constantly!
The notion that a wino could keep his mouth shut for very long after being paid a bribe by state agents is risible. This site is infested by staff from the Internet Research Agency.
Rowley is not a wino – he is a heroin addict and dealer
If these two Russians are guilty as charged, then they must be the most incompetent agents on Earth, serving the most incompetent organisation.
The whole thing is just too ridiculous to believe.
Why is this snipped off the bottom of your twitter cut and paste Mr Murray?
“Stonehenge
Verified account @EH_Stonehenge
Mar 4 We’re looking forward to giving all our visitors a warm welcome to Stonehenge today. We’re open until 5pm with last tickets at 3pm”.
Buses from the town ran on the Sunday and many visitors made the trip from town to the stones. The visitor centre is well equipped with end to end disabled access. Was the page not long enough to fit in the tweet saying that the monument would be open to visitors on Sunday, the second day of the “tourists” visit?
Because it is irrelevant, Ian. Utterly and completely irrelevant.
This is what these two Russians wanted to visit on the Saturday:
PETROV: “We travelled there to see Stonehenge, Old Sarum, and the Cathedral of the Blessed Virgin Mary. But it didn’t work out because of the slush.”
Got that? On the Saturday they wanted to visit:
Stonehenge,
Old Sarum
Salisbuty Cathedral.
And this is what they had to say about the Sunday visit to Salisbury:
PETROV: And we thought – we really wanted to see Old Sarum and the cathedral. So we decided to give it another try on March 4.
SIMONYAN: Another try to do what?
PETROV: To go sightseeing.
BOSHIROV: To see this famous cathedral. To visit Old Sarum.
So on the Sunday they had two places in mind:
Salisbury Cathedral
Old Sarum.
They had already dropped the idea of visiting Stonehenge when they looked out their hotel window on Sunday morning and thought “Yeah, the sun is shining, let’s try Salisbury again”.
So pointing out that the buses were running to Stonehenge on the Sunday is simply irrelevant: they had already dropped it from their to-do list.
Your Stonehenge visit hobby horse here and elsewhere on this thread is weird. I was going to call it an obsession or a mania, but I have no formal psychiatric training.
Why do you think the thwarted visit to Stonehenge is such a crucial detail? You have gone to great lengths in several similar comments about this apparently minor discrepancy. Are you part of a Ra worship cult, or is it just a mania?
It is not @Yeah, Right’s ‘hobby horse’. I am more than sure he would prefer NOT to have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over again simply because other posters on here can either not be bothered to watch the interview with B & P in full, or they are incapable of absorbing what is clearly said in the interview. The point is that posters trying to pick holes in B & P’s story keep saying that they must be lying because they said they wanted to visit Stonehenge yet they didn’t go there on the Sunday even thought the bus service was back in operation after the hiatus on the Saturday. @Yeah, Right’s (correct) point is that by the time Sunday came, and we know this from the interview which he quotes in full, B & P no longer had any plans to visit Stonehenge so whether the buses were running or not is completely irrelevant to any analysis of the ‘whys and wherefores’. So it’s definitely not @Yeah,Right who thinks “the thwarted visit to Stonehenge is such a crucial detail”. His view, like mine, is the precise opposite i.e. it IS NOT a crucial detail and he is refuting suggestions that there is a discrepancy, and suggests that everyone just forget about this irrelevant point – but some on here persist in resurrecting it.
“Why do you think the thwarted visit to Stonehenge is such a crucial detail?”
You might want to look up the dictionary definition of “irrelevant”, John.
My point in all those posts is that Stonehenge is NOT a crucial detail, it is easily explained by simply reading the transcript of that interview, and that everyone who insists on pointing out that Stonehenge was open on Sunday is indulging in an irrelevancy.
Oh, heck, there’s that word again…..
As to why I keep posting on that point, well, you are an excellent example of why it takes multiple attempts to get simple concepts across to people who refuse to comprehend.
The consensus is that the story of the two men was unconvincing. Whatever the if’s and but’s, Stonehenge closed one day and open the next, slush, 123m spires and clocks and on and on, no matter which way you slice it, did not convince me, or the interviewer, or the wider world including most on here that they were MERELY tourists. I agree that Stonehenge is an irrelevant detail, but that is itself irrelevant. ALL that matters is whether they were convincing or unconvincing to a majority. If they convinced Ian, or Yeah Right, or Craig, or me (or not) is also irrelevant. The consensus of the majority of the British public, the consensus of the majority of the Russian public, and of the wider world is what matters. They came across as shifty, awkward and frightened. Whether this was because they were in fact hit men, wicked drug dealers, or simply closeted homosexuals is irrelevant too, what matters is their lack of plausibility, whatever the reason.
In fact that does not matter either. None of this Boshirov and Petrov stuff does. The British government’s version of events was already in tatters in the court of public opinion (the thing that really matters), and any attempt to patch things up by pulling rabbits out of a hat with ludicrous stories of Russian spies is not very clever. Unlike the interest on here, the majority of the British public don’t really care about any of it. The idea that we are all being fed a pack of lies is widespread, at least in the under 70s. An important difference is that most who come to this and similar blogging sites are evidently very concerned and angry with all this lying, whereas most folks don’t really care. They don’t like it or approve of it, but they realise they cannot do anything about it, it does not affect them anyway, and so they don’t care. Maybe there is nothing so wrong in that. Since the great political cartoonists of the seventeenth century, “something had to be done”. The question remains as to what.
Furthermore, they
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-silence-of-the-skripals-government-blocks-press-reports-media-change-the-record.html
@Lucia,
Thanks for that link, it made interesting reading.
My employment pays me a sum substantially above the average UK rate and I like to take holidays just as much as these two hapless tourists from Russia. If I took a weekend break in another country 4 hours flying time away to see a single attraction I would do my utmost to see it.
Wasting time and a good chunk off money is frustrating for all nationalities, the monument was open on the Sunday and the ripoff Stonehenge tour bus operated on the Sunday. English Heritage are probably becoming irritated at nosy people like myself telephoning and emailing them.
The notion that two handy looking men taking the trouble of a one stop, one attraction to another country fail at the first hurdle and instead have a wander around the suburbs of Salisbury is risible.
On Sunday they returned to Salisbury with the intention of seeing Salisbury and Old Sarum. They seem to have wanted to walk to Old Sarum on foot as it is merely just outside the town to the NNW. No problem for two young men into fitness. If they took finally took a road, Wilton Road, heading more West than North, it’s easily explainable by their getting confused and taking a wrong turning, ending up by the Shell Station. English towns are not laid out in a grid pattern, with streets running straight North South and East west. Our streets twist all over the place, making it extremely difficult for those without a good map and training to find their way. Foreigners in Britain are often afraid to use the telephone, as they have great difficulty understanding the multiplicity of different accents used there. If you’re not a member of the EU ( Russians are not)i roaming charges for the internet on smart phones can be prohibitively high.
“transport out of Salisbury was still severely disrupted, and many roads closed, on 4 March”. Give English Heritage a call Craig, you being a forensic journalist should know that that the question is “could I have travelled from Salisbury centre to Stonehenge on Sunday without a car”?
The simple answer is yes, the ludicrously expensive “Stonehenge Tour bus” operated their winter timetable as usual on the Sunday, it can easily be checked. Your story here omits the Sunday as evidential and instead focuses on Russophobia and the Saturday. The two men visited Salisbury on the Sunday and apparently made no attempt to visit the monument after making a 4 hour 1,600 mile plane journey to visit but one attraction. They look like handy lads to me and show Russian men to be quite wussy if they failed at the first after spending a good chunk of cash.
I think we are arriving at a view, well know I have, that the P + B trip to Salisbury was a cover for something else. I don’t know what. Was it to plant Novichok agent on the Skripals? I am doubtful to say the least. Do GRU operatives, if that is what they are, wander around flaunting their presence on CCTV , when on an assassination mission like they did? I am sceptical. Has anyone got some other examples?
The Russians who have died in the UK in recent years, have all met unexplained deaths which the UK police then swept under the carpet. Why should Skripal be different?. It smacks of a set up.
And then there is the fake perfume bottle.The UK security minister has decided to square the circle by announcing there was only one fake perfume bottle, ( apparently carefully reassembled after being used on the Skripals, ) which was discarded in a charity bin where it languished for several months before being found, looking brand new, by Charlie Rowley. If you believe that………
Can anyone tell me how they test for the presence of Novichok agents? As the police apparently did not identify the perfume bottle as a source until Charlie recovered and spoke to them. Also was there any rain or sleet in Salisbury on the Sunday or was it dry all day?
Dr.
Unexplained deaths is hardly uncommon in UK. Regional papers find Poles hanging in woods, or people fished out of rivers…….I think if you google Unexplained Deaths/Murders in UK you will find PCX Plod is not up to the task. Remember the “Crossbow Killer” in Bradford ? He dumped dismembered bodies in River Aire but police had no clue until a doorman returned after the weekend and reviewed CCTV footage to see his PhD student dragging a female body into his room having killed her with a crossbow.
This was the same police “service” that spent how many years solving the unexplained murders of women in the same area before deciding Sutcliffe might fit the bill.
There is nothing strange in Unexplained Deaths be they Russian or Polish or English or Pakistani – they are nothing more than that and WY Police has a station in Pakistan to assist in tracking contractors flying in to UK for “terminations” then flying straight back to Pakistan.
Because people live in a Skinner Box they have no idea what s going on at street level in this country and are simply waiting for a cattle prod from the Daily Mail to start baying at the moon
Furthermore Charlies Rowley says the packet was still sealed in its original cellophane. He had to break it open.How did the clowns reseal it?
“Your story here omits the Sunday as evidential and instead focuses on Russophobia and the Saturday. The two men visited Salisbury on the Sunday and apparently made no attempt to visit the monument after making a 4 hour 1,600 mile plane journey to visit but one attraction.”
That statement is demonstrably false.
This is what those two gentlemen wanted to visit on the Saturday:
PETROV: “We travelled there to see Stonehenge, Old Sarum, and the Cathedral of the Blessed Virgin Mary. But it didn’t work out because of the slush.”
They are therefore explicitly stating that they had planned to visit THREE places in Salisbury, not ONE as you are claiming.
And they failed: the weather on Saturday did not allow it, and so they returned to London after a frustrating hour in Salisbury.
Now let’s look at Sunday, when they opened the curtains in their hotel room and saw that the sun was shining.
PETROV: And we thought – we really wanted to see Old Sarum and the cathedral. So we decided to give it another try on March 4.
SIMONYAN: Another try to do what?
PETROV: To go sightseeing.
BOSHIROV: To see this famous cathedral. To visit Old Sarum.
Note the difference: this was their last day, and so they made the decision to drop Stonehenge and limit themselves to Salisbury Cathedral and Old Sarum. Clearly those two places were higher on their list of tourist destinations, and a visit to Stonehenge was disposable.
I’m sorry, Ian, but Craig Murray is right and you are completely wrong.
They did not say that was their main or sole purpose of vising to England. Te were based in London at night. Salisbury was a side day trip
I think the hotel room trace of poison that can not be found is telling.. I also agree with Craig that the timing does not match the accusations. The government has to get its story right if it is to have any credibility.
It is a bit like the lies they came out with to ban Russian from the Olympics. A so called tamper proof bottle that they claimed was tampered with. but could not say how. They said it could be tapered with but could not explain how.
They certainly need to produce much more evidence than what they have if they are to be believed.. Most likely is not enough. Sort out the timing issue and their story first. Interview the suspects as has been offered by the Russian State.
Covers up for police cuts if we just skip the evidence stage and prosecute directly. Apparently going to Salisbury twice in a weekend is definitive proof you are a serial killer. Ted Heath lived there so maybe there is something in it.
Aha, perhaps Colonel Fielding-Pritchard, you managed to read one of my Messrs Wint and Kidd fairy stories about gay Dutch organists on a pilgrimage to Arundells, via a recital they gave in the Cathedral. A foolish attempt on my part to bring some levity to all the angst on here about Deep State, phone tracking, Israel bashing, et hoc genus omne. Foolish because I had posted under multiple obviously satirical names based on past Directors of MI’s 5&6. The Mods on high were intolerant of this abhorrent infraction, and swiftly expunged them.
Unfortunate, as I suspect my egregious version of events may well have gained some traction on here, particularly now the Cathedral visit has been revealed. It would have been excellent sport to read the arguments about what kind of music they played in that recital.
The Police cuts in 2010 was a surprise to me. Although UK crime had been falling steadily, I had always assumed Law & Order was a holy cow. I was wrong, but I don’t care for politics.
Caveats to the Mods
Not excellent sport for you wading through the additional madness generated. I’m sure if you allowed such spoofery the credibility of this blog would be undermined, which was not my intention.
Apologies again. I am off here soon, what I said about getting bored and better (fingers crossed) is 100% true. Hope you liked the zeugma.
please burn when read
prosperum iter facias
1) When asked about the reason to visit Salisbery, they do NOT mention Stonehenge. They talk about “world famous cathefral and clock”? Whatever issues the Stonehenge might have had that day, is irrelevant.
2) weekend break is a nice option, but they had TWO sets of return tickets while staying at the cheapest one room in a cheapest hotel. Do you not see any discrepancy here , consudering it is 4 hours flight from Russia to the UK (not 1-2 like for Europeans taking weekend breaks to the UK?).
3) Skripal house is on the opposite side of the railroad. Being seen at cameras just 500 yards from Skripal house, they are apparently making the other way fyon the “world famous cathedral” the so desperately wanted to visit so they spent good 2 days on this mission.
4) they complain on ” bad weather” preventing them from visiting the cathedral on say 1 and the cathedral is just 15 min walk from the train station. Just the other way fro Skripal’s house.
Are you seriously buying this?
I am not buying it. It is Craig who pasted pictures of the Salisbury countryside and takes trouble to say “Those mocking the idea that the pair were blocked by snow from visiting Stonehenge have pointed to the CCTV footage of central Salisbury not showing snow on the afternoon of 4 March. Well, that is central Salisbury, it had of course been salted and cleared. Outside there were drifts”.
But yes I am with you. I fully expect them to be rewarded medals in time, just to rub the UK’s nose in it like with the other bloke who topped Litvinenko.
“Europeans” ? “railroad” ? I presume you are not-British but foreign. Tourists are often dejected by the dire transport links in England and chaotic signposting. Sometimes arguments ensue as to whether it is all worthwhile and you walk while arguing until you end up desperate to get out.
I have not been to Salisbury but if it is a typical English city it will have a few landmarks and lots of copycat housing with conservatories and boring shops full of the chains and charity shops. In short, a few old buildings hyped in travel brochures and the tedium of betting shops, takeaways, Boots, Next and assorted trash.
It already feels like a wasted journey in prospect
They were trying to walk to Old Sarum which is only just outside the town. They got a bit lost. Fed up with that, they traced their way back to the town centre.
Not that it matters here but Salisbury Cathedral is NOT “one of the most breathtaking achievements of Norman architecture” – it’s Early English Gothic. It’s certainly well worth anyone paying it a visit. Russians even.
But, just as you think it can get any worse or journalists can’t get any more scurrilous, I see that that nincompoop Ben Macintyre is claiming that the KGB paid Michael Foot. Anyone would think there was a leftie leading the Labour Party . . .
“Russians even.”
Reply ↓
DaveB, what do you mean?
Sorry – it was meant to be ironic. The suggestion doing the rounds that there’s something odd about people from Russia visiting Salisbury Catherdral is not just absurd, it’s chauvinist. One can’t argue with such irrationality but one can try to laugh at it.
“The devil is in the detail” might serve CM well as a vade mecum. I noted in a comment, buried deeply in all this shite and quite possibly now redacted, that a closer perusal of his previous post, qv, (or should that be: polemic?) placed Bashirov and Petrov 500 yards from the Skripal residence. In this one, they are 400 yards away when they walk past the Salisbury Shell.
It seems strange that on a site needs fixated on detail, this significant slip was not noticed. Messrs B&C will be at the Skripals midweek by extrapolation. Dear me, you can’t get the staff.
I always thought the late, great FRSL blew his Foot off with the donkey jacket. Good that Corbyn learned from that mistake and now sports a lounge suit.
“In this one, they are 400 yards away when they walk past the Salisbury Shell.”
And if they continued on in the direction of travel indicated by that photo, how much closer would that take them to the Skripal house? No closer than 400 yards, perhaps? Or Right Up To The Front Door? Which one?
Because one thing we do know is that you can’t smear nerve-agent on a door knob from 400 metres away.
If those two Russians needed to change direction and cross some roads in order to send them in a direction that ends within door-knob-smearing distance of the Skripal house then the Metropolitan Police has to release footage showing that these two did, indeed, do exactly that.
Without that footage all we have is evidence that they got no closer than 400 metres from the Skripal house, which is nowhere near close enough.
Difference between distance as the crow flies and distance walking on the road maybe?
I watched the whole interview and, reading between the lines, it seems like they might be a gay couple who naturally don’t want to discuss their private lives on the media. They ‘protested too much’ with any issues that could point in that direction, and when asked what was the personal relationship between them, they said it was private and didn’t appreciate feeling under interrogation. That would explain their reluctance to speak and nervousness. If that’s the case, I feel sorry that they got caught in this.
I take your point about racist dismissal of them, Regarding the cathedral, but there are a few things here which are glaringly odd; why start in London, if you are going to Salisbury fro the weekend? Stonehenge is what – 15 miles from Salisbury? If they are innocent culture vultures, why are they quoting Wikipedia about the cathedral, where’s the human back story to this interest (I always wanted to ses Stonehenge because..) It’s so contrived and silly. I can’t say I know what’s going on here, but actually giving their cover story any credence is unsupportable in my view.
why shouldn’t they quote Wikipedia? I tend to look up tourist cities I go to on Wikipedia, and then quote it to my spouse.
Question to anyone else on here – am I the only one who thinks that at least one whole page of comments has disappeared from this thread; if not a whole page then a significant number of exchanges? Surely they can’t all have been moderated and, if so, why? I myself had a number of exchanges yesterday evening and earlier today with @Doodlebug and @Igor M and Yeah,Right to name but three but they all seem to have gone. Perhaps I’ve gone mad – quite possible.
Some of them were theorising about the possibility that the UK security services had pre-determined who they might pin the blame on before the purported nerve agent attack took place.
Further to my post above (20.02), it appears that every post of mine after 13.45 yesterday (14 September) until 19.30 tonight has vanished along with related posts from other contributors. Not saying it’s just me, but, naturally, I know what I have posted.
I found two comments from you on the previous page using Ctrl+F and searching for your name.
September 14, 2018 at 11:45 https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-strange-russian-alibi/comment-page-7/#comment-781721
September 15, 2018 at 17:30
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-strange-russian-alibi/comment-page-7/#comment-783015
lissnup – thank you very much for helping out – much appreciated. The issue has now been resolved and everything is back to normal. I am not very technologically minded and think it may have just been a case of needing to refresh(??) my link to the website.
Cheers.
Mine seems to have vanished – I posted about 10pm 14/09 – prob tech glitch.
[ MOD: It can be viewed at https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/lynch-mob-mentality/comment-page-6/#comment-782262 ]
I must admit that if I was vising Britain Stonehenge would be high on my list of places to see. If I was in the area I would also most likely visit the Cathedral also.
Bat would be the other place of interest.
Bat? In the cathedral belfry?
Ah, that must be Bath, on reflection…
The only reason I ended up on here in the first place, was because one of my very good friends, of over 30 years standing, told me that Craig Murray was a decent bloke, who could explode the stinking pile of shyte we’re being fed by the media, who could tell it like it is and who was even-handed and fair. What I’ve seen so far is that Mr Murray has decided to question ONLY the (admittedly very dodgy) scenario presented by the British government, but has fallen hook, line and sinker for the version presented by the Russian powers that be. I’m at a loss to understand. Do you all know that it’s perfectly possible to despise both May AND Putin and that it’s perfectly possible to think that both sides are lying through their teeth?
We don’t need to. The mainstream media are doing it.
fallen hook line and sinker for what exactly? if this is british propaganda, based on no solid evidence, what are the russians supposed to say? it’s like people looking for equal time between climate scientists and oil company shills in debates about climate science.
Jenny C
“What I’ve seen so far is that Mr Murray has decided to question ONLY the (admittedly very dodgy) scenario presented by the British government, but has fallen hook, line and sinker for the version presented by the Russian powers that be. ”
——
As an admirer of Craig’s, I regret to say there is some truth in this. Most recently, he has swallowed the Russian media’s bait that this pair are gay. Last night Russian TV broadcast a picture of Salisbury Cathedral’s spire, coloured like the rainbow flag. ( Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink).
“What I’ve seen so far is that Mr Murray has decided to question ONLY the (admittedly very dodgy) scenario presented by the British government, but has fallen hook, line and sinker for the version presented by the Russian powers that be”
Well, quite apart from the fact that the burden of proof lies with the accuser, there is the indisputable fact that the “Russian powers that be” are responding in a calm and quite measured manner, whereas it is the British authorities who appear to be hyperventilating in an increasingly shrill manner ill-befitting the government of a country dedicated to the rule of law and the presumption of innocence.
It was on the car wheel!
No, no, in the restaurant!
No it wasn’t, it was on the door-knob!
Deadliest nerve agent known to mankind!
Except it takes four hours to strike you down!
DS Bailey was struck down when he came to their assistance!
Who said that? Nonsense! He was poisoned when he opened the front door!
OK, sure, we had police stationed outside that door for days but… look! A squirrel!
Craig is taking the British government to task precisely because their explanation(s) are an internally-contradictory and increasingly hysterical pile of shyte.
He isn’t taking the Russian government to task because they aren’t actually saying all that much except:
A) It wasn’t us, why would we give a rat’s arse about fat old ex-spies?
B) What the f**k has Teresa May been snorting?
They did not say thatvisiting Salisbury was their main or sole purpose of vising to England. They were based in London at night. Salisbury was a side day trip.
I think the hotel room trace of poison claim that can not be substantiated is telling.. I also agree with Craig that the timing does not match the accusations. The government has to get its story right if it is to have any credibility.
It is a bit like the lies they came out with to ban Russian from the Olympics. A so called tamper proof bottle that they claimed was tampered with. but could not say how. They said it could be tapered with but could not explain how.
They certainly need to produce much more evidence than what they have if they are to be believed.. Most likely is not enough. Sort out the timing issue and their story first. Interview the suspects as has been offered by the Russian State.
It is interesting that the easily refuted lies of the paid media propagandists were what compelled the ambassador’s conclusion that the Russians were telling the truth. The evidence reviewed fully backs up this story, and its absurdity should be apparent to anyone with an open mind.
Does anyone know if Rowley or Sturgess existed before 2017 ? Do they have any biographical information ? Did Rowley get a Housing Association flat through the Prison Service ? Who paid his rent ? Who paid Sturgess an income ? Who was their GP ? Did Sturgess have any police record ?
The reason that they appeared so “unconvincing” during the interview is simply the fact that it was not staged or prepared – it is how the real life looks like and not a polished propaganda.
And what they said made perfect sense. Of course they tried to avoid the “gay issues” – but again that makes perfect sense.
Indeed. “Not staged or prepared” – And nor was it edited. And as far as I know B&P didn’t know in advance what they would be asked, as indicated by their reluctance to reveal specific details about their private lives. It was filmed with two cameras, one directed at Simonyan and one at B & P, and was filmed in one go with no cuts or retakes. By comparison, I doubt very much that the unconvincing interview with Charlie Rowley was filmed in one go or without practice runs, yet I didn’t see the British media dissecting everything he said in fine detail.
1) They didn’t talk about desperately wanting to see Stonehenge. They mostly wanted to see the cathedral, its spire and its clock (thr oldest working clock in the world, don’t you know!). Well they could quite easily achieve that on their first visit. The walk from the train station to the cathedral is 13 minutes according to Google Maps, and the CCTV images show that the streets certainly were not knee high with snow. The cathedral would have been open for them to look around. Job done. Also, they come from Russia. Having been there myself in winter, I know that Russians are familiar with cold and snow. They’re unlikely to let a bit of slush put them off seeing what they’d gone to see. I’d be surprised if they saw anything of Old Sarum on either day – wouldn’t it just be a field of snow?
2) Flights to and from Russia – England are not like flights to Spain. You can’t just Easyjet it for £16.99. Firstly you have to buy a visa. I dont know how much it costs for them, but for us to visit Russia it costs £108 plus 4 weeks to get the documents. It’s really not comparable to a European break at all. Which leads to my next point.
3) Last time I looked, flights were at least £200 return. Plus the visa cost. Would you really spend £300 minimum plus hotel plus transport for less than three days holiday? Surely if you are going to all that effort and expense, you’d make it a week? Or at least five days, to fit in the cathedral, Stonehenge, Old Sarum and the multitude of things to do across London (given that your last day is always a bit of a write off since you have to get to the airport).
Those are just my major sticking points. I have quite a few more minor ones. Suffice to say my 8 year old comes up with better lies than this pair.
Actually they said they wanted to go to London for fun, and according to the Daily Mail and Express they found it, a booze and marijuana filled night bonking loudly on the bed and shouting. The trips to Saiisbury were to fill the daylight hours before the fun started for real.
Jenny C says: “Do you all know that it’s perfectly possible to despise both May AND Putin and that it’s perfectly possible to think that both sides are lying through their teeth?”
Well, of course you’re right, except that Putin has no rational motive to have authorised a state assassination and therefore has less motive, on this occasion at least, to lie.
On the other hand, the West have every reason to lie and set up a “false flag” because there has been a deliberate ramping up of anti-Russian propaganda from well before the Skripal event. The nut-jobs in the US administration (aka lunatic asylum) are increasingly hawkish against Russia and several other countries. Our pathetic government, with the aid of Mi6 and the CIA are hand-in-glove with the US in all this.
Russia may be involved in the assassination attempt but surely the countless unanswered questions and blatant discrepancies (lies?) by the UK authorities need a lot more explaining than the story of the two “Russian spies”.
Garth Carthy,
Please read the following, highly plausible, explanation as to what the motive could have been. Keep an open mind – just because something is published in the MSM, it doesn’t automatically mean it has no value – even a stopped clock is right twice a day. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/world/europe/sergei-skripal-russian-spy-poisoning.html
Plausible?? It presents the motive in the Holywood cliché of a rivalry between Skripal and Putin. Nobody and the President of Russia. My question is, if you buy that c**p, why did the all powerful president of Russia not destroy this minnow when he had him in his grasp, but instead retuned him to the West, only to undertake a botched attempt 8 years later?
Useless speculation generally leads to a waste of time for your readers (and you). Why did you bother?
As the British press largely makes use of idle speculation, gossip and lies in a one-sided direction, a bit of counter-analysis provides a refreshing change.