I have just received confirmation from the Metropolitan Police Press Bureau that both the European Arrest Warrant and Interpol Red Notice remain in the names of Boshirov and Petrov, with the caveat that both are probably aliases. Nothing has been issued in the name of Chepiga or Mishkin.
As for Bellingcat’s “conclusive and definitive evidence”, Scotland Yard repeated to me this afternoon that their earlier statement on Bellingcat’s allegations remains in force: “we are not going to comment on speculation about their identities.”
It is now a near certainty that Boshirov and Petrov are indeed fake identities. If the two were real people, it is inconceivable that by now their identities would not have been fully established with details of their history, lives, family and milieu. I do not apologise for exercising all due caution, rather than enthusiasm, about a narrative promoted to increase international tension with Russia, but am now convinced Petrov and Boshirov were not who they claimed.
But that is not to say that the information provided by NATO Photoshoppers’R’Us (Ukraine Branch) on alternative identities is genuine, either. I maintain the same rational scepticism exhibited by Scotland Yard on this, and it is a shame that the mainstream media neither does that, nor fairly reflects Scotland Yard’s position in their reporting.
Still less do I accept the British government’s narrative of the novichok poisoning, which remains full of wild surmise and apparent contradiction. No doubt further evidence will gradually emerge. The most dreadful thing about the whole saga is the death of poor Dawn Sturgess, and the most singular fact at present is that Boshirov and Petrov are only wanted in relation to the “attack on the Skripals”. There is no allegation against them by Scotland Yard or the Crown Prosecution Service over the far more serious matter of the death of Sturgess. That is a fascinating fact, massively under-reported.
I remain of the view that the best way forward would be for Putin to negotiate conditions under which Boshirov and Petrov might voluntarily come to the UK for trial. The conditions which I would suggest Russia propose are these:
1) A fully fair and open trial before a jury.
2) The entire trial to be fully public. No closed sessions nor secret evidence and no reporting restrictions.
3) No restrictions on witnesses who may be called, including the Skripals, Pablo Miller, Christopher Steele and other former and current members of the security services.
4) No restrictions on disclosure – all relevant material held by government must be given to the defence.
I strongly suspect that, if a trial would bring to public light something of the extent of the convoluted spy games that were being played out in Salisbury, we would find the British Government’s pretended thirst for justice would suddenly slam into reverse.
Sadly, it currently seems highly improbable that either justice will be served or the full truth be known.
Lol Cadwalladr from hero to zero with her non critical acceptance of the bellendpussies in the obsessive tonight.
The ‘investigative’ journalist that ‘broke’ the Cambridge Analytica/ SLA ‘story’, the Brexit targetted ads on FB thinks citizen investigators like Higgins are hitting it out of the park!
No mention of Craig Murray, Caitlin Jonstone or the now inumerrable bloggers and btl bloggers that are out here now.
Looks like she was turned or was always another ‘gatekeeper’ of the MSM. Her ‘scoop’ always felt a bit contrived, like Bellends.
I think they’ve finally twigged that the general public distrust the authorities.
The article is an attempt to cash in on this and frame Bellingcat as rebel anti establishment fighters for the truth, mavericks, of the people!
When in fact all of their investigations fully support offficial narratives.
They’re merely conduits and launderers for the FO
The full mainstream recognition of the unfailing investigative power was wrapped up in a program giving the history of Eliot and his Bellingcats and dogs, The program was obviously an attempt to build this up. I have to admit I couldn’t stomach listening to
Bellingcat stink to high heaven of a purchased witness. They are Johnny on the Spot the minute NATO is challenged to provide proof, with just the photo-intel that is needed and that NATO’s combined intel agencies could not provide/ :et us see the money trail. I no more believe that Russia had some interest in using THEIR cw to kill a useless old spy than I believe that the OPCW is not at this very moment rewriting its interim report that proved no cw use in Douma.
I suspect it’s all a red-herring, or smoke-bomb. A loud and confusing (and highly effective) distraction away from the yawning discrepancies in the original Skripal doorknob narrative.
NATO Supreme Commander: US Carrier Off Norway’s Coast Puts Russia ‘On Notice’
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201810131068859627-nato-carrier-norway-drills/
Well if the Russians aren’t ready for a pre-emptive strike after Kay Bailey Hutchinson’s warning they deserve what is coming. The movie White Tiger is apocryphal
Are you referring to this?
https://nato.usmission.gov/october-2-2018-press-briefing-by-ambassador-kay-bailey-hutchison/
I note the bit about “taking out” Russian missiles. She didn’t say bombing the missile sites but I assume that’s what she means.
What “she means” is what the Russian Military Command “thinks she means”. There is no room for ambiguity with US Mk41 launchers in Romania and Poland capable of first-strike
“am now convinced Petrov and Boshirov were not who they claimed.”
=======
AND?
Igor Korobov, head of the GRU, is reputedly ill after a savage dressing down by Putin.
Now, why would Putin do that to the man he appointed in 2016?
“Now, why would Putin do that to the man he appointed in 2016?”
If Petrov and Boshirov were set up to be the fall guy for a false-flag operation against Sergei and Yulia Skripal then Putin would be furious that the GRU didn’t get wind of it and put a stop to it before the trap was sprung.
He would also be furious if the GRU were subsequently unable to discover irrefutable evidence that this was a setup.
He would also be furious if the GRU were unable to stop – or even, apparently, to hinder – misinformation outfits like Bellingcat from running a psych-op campaign against Russia.
All of those would make Putin absolutely red with rage – and quite rightly, too – yet none of them would indicate any guilt on the part of anyone in Russia. Just incompetence.
If this is a psych-op war then Russia is losing, and losing badly.
Wouldn’t that enrage you, if you were the President of Russia?
I believe you can find the answer here 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQLKwiM4uw (Vladimir Putin meets Khabib and his father to discuss Conor McGregor fight)
Putin must have found a new way of delivering Novichok.
In addition to the Lockerbie trial many commented on here, there was another interesting court case:
http://lawandorderinrussia.org/2017/uk-high-court-orders-arrest-of-pavel-karpov-former-russian-policeman-in-the-magnitsky-case-for-contempt-of-court/
I am starting to believe that the British Justice system is highly likely overrated
I got to ask you as well, which country do you think has a better justice system? Perhaps Thailand, Turkey, Russia, USA?
For P&B Russia is much better, no doubts. Have any comments on the court case I posted?
Read the book titled “The killing of William Browder” it’s extremely interesting.
Andrew, I strongly suspect Turkey an Russia have better justice systems than ours.
Turkey? Interesting choice Jo. I’m not too sure many real Brits would agree with you. But if this is your preference, I would suggest that is where you should make your home. Just be careful what you say about Ergoden on the internet. Russia? That sounds like it is already your home if not for real then certainly in your head.
Andrew, we need to disabuse ourselves as a nation that the justice systems of the rest world are s—-t. Our justice system is not an open one, the Judiciary is completely unaccountable even if they commit offences such as serious fraud (CPS didn’t prosecute because he was 73yrs bless him). I am going to throw in this for you – and I suspect it will attract strong reactions from some people – the Soham Case – Huntley didn’t do it. Take a look at the parents again. Maddy McCann – only two suspects in the case – Met Police still spending vasts amount of public money investigating the case when the Portuguese Police did a sterling job of an investigation and identified her mother as the key and only suspect. Why? I would suggest because Maddy’s parents are Doctors and oh dear, the Police couldn’t possibly put two doctors in Prison could they now? Third one – two teenagers living in Hampstead from a very wealthy family spent millions on the internet on credit cards they had stolen on the Net – Police statement? They weren’t going to charge them because they had been corrupted by the internet. They got a caution. I could go on and on with examples but I won’t.
Here is some evidence of ‘corruption’?
“Home – The Beginning
This blog is a work in progress. I have been motivated to begin writing it in response to the ongoing tragedy, scandal and chaos that is the north Wales mental health services. I have a good knowledge of these services and the history and the events that have led to the current catastrophe. But this will not be a story that begins and ends in north Wales. Over the last thirty years I have watched and gained evidence of institutional corruption in the English medical establishment – assisted by institutional corruption in the legal establishment -that enabled the mental health services in north Wales to inflict a great deal of suffering on a lot of vulnerable people, many of whom did not survive. Four years ago I gave this evidence to the Welsh Government, having been told that they were desperate to improve the mental health services (and the wider NHS) in north Wales. I trusted them to use this material to remove some very problematic people from their posts who have blighted this region for years. The evidence that I acquired was easily sufficient to dismiss a number of people and indeed to prosecute others. The Welsh Government instead fudged it -presumably because they were desperate not to admit to any failings that would then be used against them by a hostile Westminster Government. I was subjected to such severe harassment, abuse and threats that I left the area. I gained the impression that this was seen as part of the solution – I was expected to shut up about the dreadful events and then embarrassment could be avoided. . . . ”
http://www.drsallybaker.com/
I think the judge is deranged . Nobody would consider being a libel tourist in the U.K. unless they have a very valid reason to do so , as this man did . U.K. court costs and legal costs are ridiculously high . 650k legal costs for fraudulent William Browder s defence . Unreal .
What a utter and complete bunch of c…owards the Atlantic Council and the fatcat bellends are :-
https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/internet-censorship-just-took-an-unprecedented-leap-forward-and-hardly-anyone-noticed-e6ae2d8adaf2
Heed Caitlin Johnstones call to arm and shout at the scum platforms and social media goons and tycoons and advertisers who give them money. SCREAM this out across every platform and all your peer groups.
This ties in with the MSM concerted bigging up the nutty amateur Higgins while stopping the real citizen journalism. Carol Cadwalldr must be proud of her turncoatery and support for the bellends censorship and propaganda.
As I have been saying for sometime – prepare your backup communication channels – the internet is NOT the web or social media. The internet can NOT be censored only turned off everywhere at the same time by willing telcos.
Don’t forget the miniature ink presses! For the pamphlets, if that happens.
The DS is in deep shit and what they always do then is have a war to stop the revolt against the robber baron masters. Let us stop them this time before they start rounding us up, for interment or worse.
Thank you for the link. The media is sadly complicit in this as I haven’t seen one article on the Atlantic council partnership with Facebook or twitter giving a share of its profits to AC . Meanwhile there’s here breeds of articles about Cambridge analytica.
Here is Atlantic council document :
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/images/publications/Sovereign_Challenge_Report_091718_web.pdf
Surely, it’s been mentioned hundreds of times, but the slipshoddy photo release by the MET, shows how slipshoddy this whole Skripal ‘I evident’ is. Fisherto Road on top of the photo doesn’t actually exist in Salisbury town centre. It is Fisherton Street. They’ve repeated the same school child error with all the street photo. That on top of the 15.00 airport arrival. How can the UK public have trust in the MET to conduct an orchestra never mind an investigation about what really happened in March in Salisbury.
Well in London, we don’t.
It’s not slip-shoddy. It is intentional. By not releasing the photos, all persons involved in this operation are effectively grounded, since there is no way for Russia to identify who was spotted and who not. You can bet that if anyone who has been identified gets on a plane to USA/Europe they will be picked up, so Russia will not risk that. The expelled diplomats are also no longer welcome. It is about creating costs.
After Exercise Toxic Dagger, that had finished two weeks before ithe Skripal ‘incident’ n the bumph sent out they mentioned a ‘live’ situation to test responses. Furthermore, the CBRN information from the government doesn’t have novochok as a chemical to look out for. It has other chemicals but not novichok. Which is odd considering the UK authorities are claiming the Russians had stocks of novochok. You’d think that if they knew novochok existed they would train their CBRN units to deal with such an attack.
My sister, who otherwise takes only a passing interest in the matter, remains greatly surprised and puzzled that Salisbury Hospital should so quickly have identified a novichok agent as responsible for poisoning the Skripals.
Of course Porton Down has an intimate relationship with that hospital and I bet Porton Down has its own ambulances. I have visited industrial factories in England with their own ambulance liveried and equipped just like an NHS vehicle and with its own infirmary.
MaryPaul. Added to which of course, Boris Johnson and Treason May identified it only hours after the incident when of course, we now know it has not been identified as Novichok at all.
The Hospital was probably well prepared. See Operation Toxic Storm, a Royal Marines chemical weapons exercise on Salisbury Plain on the 6th of March 2018. Incidentally, and probably completely unrelated, the Skripals were poisoned in Salisbury on 4th of March 2018
The page seems to have vanished recently from: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/march/06/180306-toxic-storm-for-royal-marines-in-major-chemical-exercise
But here is the text . . .
…/Toxic storm for Royal Marines in major chemical exercise.html
It is vital we can make rapid decisions and are able to protect and support specialists who come in to deal with any incident
Major Rob Garside RM, Officer Commanding Bravo Company
40 Commando would be first on the ground in the event of a CBRN incident as the Lead Commando Group, but their brawn requires scientific brain behind it; at DSTL’s headquarters a team is on hand to provide the crucial information to tell them what dangers they face and how to deal with them.
“Because the threat is a technical, scientific one, the ability to reach out to organisations with specialist skills greater than ours is crucial,” said Lieutenant Colonel Paul Maynard, 40 Cdo’s Commanding Officer.
The three-week exercise included company-level attacks and various CBRN scenarios based on the latest threats for ultimate realism, such as a raid on a suspected chemical weapons lab.
It climaxes with a full-scale exercise involving government and industry scientists and more than 300 military personnel, including the RAF Regiment and the RM Band Service – casualty treatment was a key part of the Salisbury Plain exercise.
A chemical decontamination area was set up not merely to treat ‘polluted’ commandos, but also any wounded prisoners they may have brought in; once cleansed, casualties can be treated in field/regular hospitals.
Everything is a lot slower because of the chemical agents we come across with chemical casualties there’s the clean/dirty process to go through which is manpower intensive. First there is dry decontamination, a clean area to remove contaminate clothes, before moving to the wet area, where the naked casualty is hosed down.
“It’s quite hard work because everyone needs to get involved moving casualties – big lads with all their equipment on, they are quite heavy,” explained B/Sgt Caitlin O’Malley of RM Band Plymouth, helping to run the casualty clearance station.
“The chemical weapons suits and respirators don’t merely make stretcher bearing more difficult – they make everything more difficult. Walking. Talking. Breathing. Shooting.”
“So it’s good that every year the Corps refreshes its skills with such an exercise”, says Bravo’s Officer Commanding Maj Rob Garside.
“Working with DSTL means we have the most up-to-date information and a realistic exercise. This ensures we are well prepared for a CBRN operating environment.
“It is vital we can make rapid decisions and are able to protect and support specialists who come in to deal with any incident. On operations these specialists are on hand to advise and we must ensure we already have a strong understanding of their capabilities and what they require of us as a military force.”
Commanding Officer Paul Maynard
Including full text of Toxic Storm description . . .
The page seems to have vanished recently from: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2018/march/06/180306-toxic-storm-for-royal-marines-in-major-chemical-exercise
But here is the text . . .
…/Toxic storm for Royal Marines in major chemical exercise.html
Toxic storm for Royal Marines in major chemical exercise
06/03/2018
Royal Marines donned gas masks for three weeks as they tested Britain’s ability to fight in the event of a chemical – or, worse, nuclear – attack.
Troops from 40 Commando, based at Norton Manor, near Taunton, joined the country’s leading experts in Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear warfare to make sure they could cope in a worst-case scenario.
The Corps trained extensively for the threat of chemical warfare in both Gulf wars – thankfully they were not used by Saddam Hussein’s forces against British troops in either conflict.
Fifteen years later, and the threat remains – though not in Iraq. But the conflict in Syria has shown that some nations not only possess weapons of mass destruction, but are prepared to use them.
Which is where Exercise Toxic Dagger – the largest of its kind in the UK – comes in, involving Public Health England, the Atomic Weapons Establishment and the government’s military labs, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory.
While the commandos have kept up with the latest developments and tactics on the battlefield, the scientists have monitored CBRN progress – and how to defeat them.
It is vital we can make rapid decisions and are able to protect and support specialists who come in to deal with any incident
Major Rob Garside RM, Officer Commanding Bravo Company
40 Commando would be first on the ground in the event of a CBRN incident as the Lead Commando Group, but their brawn requires scientific brain behind it; at DSTL’s headquarters a team is on hand to provide the crucial information to tell them what dangers they face and how to deal with them.
“Because the threat is a technical, scientific one, the ability to reach out to organisations with specialist skills greater than ours is crucial,” said Lieutenant Colonel Paul Maynard, 40 Cdo’s Commanding Officer.
The three-week exercise included company-level attacks and various CBRN scenarios based on the latest threats for ultimate realism, such as a raid on a suspected chemical weapons lab.
It climaxes with a full-scale exercise involving government and industry scientists and more than 300 military personnel, including the RAF Regiment and the RM Band Service – casualty treatment was a key part of the Salisbury Plain exercise.
A chemical decontamination area was set up not merely to treat ‘polluted’ commandos, but also any wounded prisoners they may have brought in; once cleansed, casualties can be treated in field/regular hospitals.
Everything is a lot slower because of the chemical agents we come across with chemical casualties there’s the clean/dirty process to go through which is manpower intensive. First there is dry decontamination, a clean area to remove contaminate clothes, before moving to the wet area, where the naked casualty is hosed down.
“It’s quite hard work because everyone needs to get involved moving casualties – big lads with all their equipment on, they are quite heavy,” explained B/Sgt Caitlin O’Malley of RM Band Plymouth, helping to run the casualty clearance station.
“The chemical weapons suits and respirators don’t merely make stretcher bearing more difficult – they make everything more difficult. Walking. Talking. Breathing. Shooting.”
“So it’s good that every year the Corps refreshes its skills with such an exercise”, says Bravo’s Officer Commanding Maj Rob Garside.
“Working with DSTL means we have the most up-to-date information and a realistic exercise. This ensures we are well prepared for a CBRN operating environment.
“It is vital we can make rapid decisions and are able to protect and support specialists who come in to deal with any incident. On operations these specialists are on hand to advise and we must ensure we already have a strong understanding of their capabilities and what they require of us as a military force.”
Commanding Officer Paul Maynard
Rank: Lieutenant Colonel
What bumph sent out? To who?
Russia appears to be doing what the UK and USA did during to the USSR during the Cold War – this all is typical of wide-ranging overt/covert ops – ‘pin-pricks’. The fact that NATO is a bastard encroaching on areas which Russia sees as its sphere of influence and that the USA/UK destroy entire countries at will and supports fascists and Jihadists as tactical instruments does not mean that Russia also is not a bastard… It is in Russia’s interests to break up the EU and to foster divisions b/w NATO allies. To run with Reagan’s idiotic metaphor, the ‘Empire’ now is striking back. We should be at all surprised.
Of course that last sentence hat should read, “We should not be at all surprised.”
How is that in Russia’s interests? The only thing I can see is Putin striking up diplomatic relationships with a variety of world leaders. The only people hacking government computers etc appears to be, based on the Snowden evidence. the USA NSC and Cambridge Analytica. There has been a concerted ‘anti-Russia’ propaganda campaign by the USA, the UK and NATO since 2014. They have lost the plot. That same campaign is now being seen to start against China – all to preserve USA hegemony and world domination. Bad news, things are starting to slide down hill for NATO and the USA. China and Russia are quietly, in a considered, intelligent way, stepping on the world stage as an anti-dote to USA excess and aggression.
Jo
It is indeed very telling that the Wikileaks and Snowden revelations which are proven beyond doubt have received so much less attention from our critical freedom from surveillance seeking press than alleged unproven rumours of cyber attacks from Russia.
The Americans and the West are allowed to hack and spy anything they like. It’s only the Russians and Chinese who are banned from doing so.
As Snowden showed, the US was hacking the entire world, spying on leaders, spying on trade negotiations, spying on private companies etc etc. There was no limit to who or what they would spy on.
But now, at the first sign of Chinese or Russian hacking/spying the West is suddenly trying to take the moral high ground? Are they having a laugh?
SA and Agent Green, I do so agree with your comments especially as SA is right, the MSM (aka The Tory Party Official Propaganda Machine) have conveniently sidelined a lot of 100% verified information.
Is this an advertisement?
Yes, spam at best. DON’T click the link, which may well point to malware!
Shouldn’t mods look into this?
^^^ MODS! ^^^ Spam alert!
Someone will notice it eventually.
I found it very satisfying to click the Spam button because it causes the Akismet database to be notified, flagging up similar comments on blogs throughout the world.
It can also be used maliciously. When I posted inconvenient questions on a chemtrails conspiracy site, my comments later disappeared, and other blogs started treating my comments as spam.
@Clark: “… other blogs started treating my comments as spam.” I seem to recall that when I first came onto the web (in 2002), advertising one’s own site in the comments columns of another site was referred to and objected to as spamming, even though there were no direct means of earning money from clicks at that time. Did you ever do that?
I’ve been linking to my little piece of web space for many years, in order to identify myself. That isn’t spamming, nor when other bloggers comment with a link to their own blog, and the Akismet spam filter doesn’t treat such comments as spam unless some blog moderator explicitly marks the comment as spam.
Spam comments are usually identical across multiple sites (which is one way Akismet recognises them) and usually contain a link, either to a sales webpage, or to a compromised page that attempts to interfere with visitors’ browsers. They are usually worse than off-topic, lacking a topic at all apart from “Hi, love your blog!” etc.
Fisherton Road is on the top of the photos released by the MET. In the blurb the MET guy mentions Fisherton Street which differs to what was put on the top of the photos. Right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing., rushed job even after 6 months.
CCTV6 = image of both suspects on Fisherton Road, Salisbury at 13:05hrs on 04 March 2018
CCTV7 = image of both suspects (rear) on Fisherton Road, Salisbury at 13:08hrs on 04 March 2018
“At 13.05 on Sunday, 4 March, the suspects are caught on CCTV (image six) in Fisherton Street, in Salisbury town centre, heading towards the train station.
Image seven is a rear shot of the suspects in Fisherton Street minutes later, at 13.08 on Sunday, 4 March”.
The MET ‘rushed out’ the information to coincide with the return of parliament to give May information to use against Russia. To also, add further weight to the Counter Terrorism and Border Security Bill going through parliament which will lead to a hard border on the island of Ireland due to ‘national security’. Which is also being used by Brexiteers to get the US’s say so to agree to these border checks on the island of Ireland, if necessary. UK ‘National security’ exemption would allow WTO rules to be used differently. Checking goods on the island of Ireland would mean a hard border between the UK and the rest of the world. But pulling the ‘national security’ would mean not imposing the same rules for all goods.
The ‘new’ Cyber section of national security will cost £240 million, ‘needed’ to counter Russia. The Skripal ‘incident’ has been a godsend for the warmongers in this country. Reversing all spending cuts has been their top priority.
The Counter Terrorism and Border Security Bill will increase ‘security’ snooping by the state and part of that is the ‘debate’ about the internet and fake news. The establishment do not like the ‘alternative’ uncontrolled media.
As Humbert Wolfe said in 1930,
You cannot hope
to bribe or twist,
thank God! the
British journalist.
But, seeing what
the man will do
unbribed, there’s
no occasion to.
“Over the Fire”, from The Uncelestial City (London: Victor Gollancz, 1930) p. 30
I would say one of the biggest unanswered questions in this whole fiasco, is who were the two people (man and blonde haired woman with red bag) spotted on the CCTV cameras, and then seen by the young female witness at the bench where the Skripals had collapsed.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5742937/cops-hunt-blonde-woman-seen-on-cctv-20-mins-before-ex-russian-spy-spy-sergei-skripal-and-daughter-yulia-were-poisoned/
https://dailyshocker.news/skirpals-the-hit-team-in-the-maltings-salisbury-new-evidence/
Did not the Russians offer for the us to hold a trial in Russia with a British judge and jury but we refused in regard to the Litvinenko nonsense, indeed much of the pressure for disclosure came from lawyers acting on the behalf of Lugovoi.
https://www.eurotrib.com/story/2012/12/11/11445/887
Lugovoi was not directly involved in the death of Litvinenko, which as the article suggests, was probably the result of not handling the highly radioactive material with sufficient caution. Lugovoi is a minor criminal with connections to the expatriated Russian mafia of oil oligarchs who chose England as a place to launder their ill-gotten gains. The Glushkov murder demonstrates his connections with Glushkov and therefore Berezovsky. I suspect, but have no way of knowing, the same assassin(s) did in both Glushkov and Berezovsky.
Like Russia I can’t wait for the spin MI6 and its minders from the USA are going to put on this murder. They bring such shame on the west for their combined ineptitudes. At least Russia’s GRU makes a diplomatic fist of its extrajudicial practices at home and abroad.
I just started reading ‘Propaganda Blitz’ by the Medi Lens founders. It promises to be brilliant. In the first chapter entitled ‘Anatomy of a Propaganda Blitz’ it gives the characteristics of such a blitz whose intended purpose is to “inflict maximum damage in minimum time:
1. Based on allegations of dramatic new evidence.
2. Communicated with high emotional intensity and moral outrage.
3. Apparently supported by an informed corporate media/academic/expert consensus.
4. Reinforced by damning condemnation of anyone daring even to question the apparent consensus.
5. Often generated with fortuitous timing.
6. Characterised by tragicomic moral dissonance.
Does that sound familiar? Ticks all the boxes here.
Sounds like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/03/denialism-what-drives-people-to-reject-the-truth
It does seem odd that there have been no charges re. Dawn Sturgess, given that there is a dead body and a clear evidence chain…
My guess is that in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a trial ever taking place, it would become someone’s duty, however reluctantly, to carry out a forensic examination of the charity bins situation in Salisbury – where they are, when they’re filled, when they’re emptied, what CCTV facilities there are, and is there any footage of people putting stuff in them and taking stuff out of them and this and that… And if this examination were carried out, it would become somewhat difficult to sustain the narrative that a bottle of perfume was hoyed into a charity bin by “Chepiga and Mishkin” in early March, and found by Charlie Sturrock some two months later…
There is a clear evidence chain regarding what Dawn Sturgess was poisoned with, and that it’s the same agent that poisoned the Skripals. What is lacking is a direct causal link with the accused pair as there is a gap of some months. Was it something carelessly discarded? Was it one of a few “drops” of the agent to be picked up later? In the very unlikely event this pair are ever available for questioning by the police, no doubt that will be a line of inquiry. In the meantime, it’s enough that there is an arrest warrant for an offence where the direct evidence is much more complete (and that’s just the evidence that has been made public).
Unfortunately, I think the chance of this coming to court is vanishingly small.
“There is a clear evidence chain regarding what Dawn Sturgess was poisoned with, and that it’s the same agent that poisoned the Skripals. ”
No there isn’t. We know neither what poisoned the Skripals, nor what caused the death of Dawn Sturgess. All we have is statements from various official sources, some of which are obviously false, which casts doubt on the veracity of the rest of them.
As usual, we haven’t been told the whole story.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-44882793
“Coroner Mr Ridley said the results of a post-mortem examination held on Tuesday would not be revealed until more tests had been carried out”.
Have we ever had the results?
“The inquest was adjourned until January”.
Why?
Yes there is clear evidence as the OPCW have confirmed it was the same agent in tboth cases, and the OPCW took blood samples from the Skripals, the affected policeman, Charlie Rowley and from the body of the sadly deceased Dawn Rowley all under full chain of custody control. It is in the two report summaries that the OPCW produced. The summaries are on their web site if you care to read them.
OPCW confirmed that it is the same agent in the bottle. I don’t think they analysed the body of Sturgess to know what she’s died from.
OPCW did not take blood samples from the Skripals.
I recommend you read Section 17 (v) of The Judgment issued by the High Court of Justice
http://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sshd-v-skripal-and-another-20180322.pdf
Quite right Bayard. I do not believe, for one cotton pickin’ minute that Dawn Sturgess or Charlie Rowley were murdered or poisoned by a perfume bottle with novichock in it some 2-3 months after the Skripals, particularly as all the Tabloid press made a massive fuss about the decontamination process in Salisbury and when it ended. Does anyone here rightly believe that the park bins had not been emptied in 3 months? Hell no.
What evidence?
Sturgess died of something – we are told she was admitted to hospital in “respiratory distress”. She received – are are informed 10 times the dosage of A234 that the Skripals received. She received it from a bottle found in Rowley’s house. He did not suffer unduly. Her skin was damaged by the toxin.
Yet we are informed her body was released to next-of-kin by pathologists. It was cremated.
Paul, I strongly suspect it was drug/or alcohol overdose induced. I see nothing suspicious about either of their deaths or any links whatsoever with the Skripal affair.
As a druggie she had an impaired immune system. She could have died of anything and Rowley would want to keep stumm about drugs with being out of prison on licence. after all he is not selling his story to The Sun. My point was cremation – just as Dr David Kelly was disinterred and cremated
Interesting take on the most recent Dutch revelations on the spy scandal. John Helmer from Moscow suggests that the Russians may have been spying on both Spiez Laboratory and The OPCW and hence the BZ story and the the lack of specificity in the OPCW report.
http://johnhelmer.net/tail-wags-dog-did-the-swiss-spiez-laboratory-report-uncovered-by-russian-espionage-expose-the-opcw-british-government-in-faking-skripal-evidence/#more-19877
The lack of a charge for the killing of Dawn Sturgess and the poisoning of Charlie Rowley is surely because the evidence of a direct causal connection with the “Salisbury Tourists” and the scent bottle with the Novichok agent is lacking. It would appear the most likely explanation is that it was disposed of carelessly, although the possibility of this having been one of a couple of deliberate “drops” is surely another. In that case, this pair will be wanted for questioning to ascertain what happened would be required, but as they aren’t likely to be made available for this, then that remains moot. If they ever are arrested, then due process can be followed in this respect.
Of course, a court case with all the evidence presented is the desired outcome, but as the Russian’s are never going to extradite any of their citizens (it’s in their constitution), then it’s only going to happen if either of this pair are stupid enough to travel to a country where this might happen. For sure, the actual IDs that the intelligence services believe is that of this pair will be
As for “wild surmising”, then that seems to be missing the point that the police and intelligence authorities will have far more evidence of what’s been going on that what has been released to date. It is not the habit of the police to release all the evidence for a case prior to a prosecution, and for sure there will be more, some of which may well come to light. The evidence that has been released is as much about the support for the narrative than the full extent of what would be available in a prosecution. It might be called “prima facia” evidence. Also, the evidence of what happened with the (extensively evidenced) attempt to hack into the OPCW WiFi network in the Netherlands, whilst not direct evidence about this pair, is surely very strong evidence for the Russian state authorities taking a very active role.
What we do know for certain is that Putin has either been lying about the status of this pair, or he has been duped by others in Russia given that ludicrous RT interview and the complete lack of evidence of their civilian existence under the names they travelled under. I would suggest that misleading Putin would not be a wise action in Russia.
“What we do know for certain is that Putin has either been lying about the status of this pair, or he has been duped by others in Russia given that ludicrous RT interview and the complete lack of evidence of their civilian existence under the names they travelled under.”
It is not up to the Russians to prove the innocence of P&B, it is up to the UK to prove their guilt. “Innocent until proved guilty”: that phrase ring any bells?
@Bayard
Given that Russia will not extradite the two suspects, nor make them available for questioning, then that issue of whether they are guilty or not is an open question. If you are convinced they are not guilty, then the answer is easy; they can turn up at any EU airport and have their case investigated and go to trial. I’m sure there would be no problem and any case can be held in open court with all the evidence made available which can also be examined in court.
When it comes to the behaviour of Putin then, like any other political figure, we are entitled to judge whether he is lying or not based on what he has said and the clear evidence available. As it is, the Russian government authorities have been proven to blatantly lie on many occasions. There four GRU agents caught red-handed in the Netherlands is a case in point; the evidence of where they came from and what they were up to was overwhelming yet the Russian government just denied all of it. Then there was the state-run subversion of the drug testing laboratories. Even Craig acknowledges that the two Salisbury suspects were travelling under false identities yet Putin publicly stated that they were normal civilians and there was nothing unusual about their activities. Clearly travelling under false IDs is anything by normal. Putin was simply lying.
Steve, we don’t have one single piece of verified, truthful evidence that they were travelling on false Ids or passports or that they are Mishkin and Chepig. Yeah Right on this blog has done several fantastic analytical pieces which show that Belingcat’s methods are highly questionable as is the propaganda being put out about these two people. The only liars at the present time are the UK Government and Bellingcat. I strongly suspect these two people are just who they say they are. As Bayard points out, there is not a single shred of evidence that these two have been involved with anything let alone that they are Chepig and Mishkin. The Netherlands didn’t actually provide much evidence did they. Not only that, they released the four alleged GRU officers. The only sample tampering and abuse of process was done by the UK Government. These two are decidedly and unequivocally not guilty at this time and will continue to be so because not a shred of bona fide or verifiable evidence has been produced to say otherwise.
“then that issue of whether they are guilty or not is an open question.”
No it isn’t. They haven’t been proved guilty, therefore they are innocent. What part of “innocent until proved guilty” are you struggling with?
“As it is, the Russian government authorities have been proven to blatantly lie on many occasions.”
Name me a government that hasn’t.
“Even Craig acknowledges that the two Salisbury suspects were travelling under false identities yet Putin publicly stated that they were normal civilians and there was nothing unusual about their activities. Clearly travelling under false IDs is anything by normal. Putin was simply lying.”
Craig’s suspicions are not evidence. Assertions by our government are not evidence. There is no evidence that these two were travelling under anything but their own names, so there is no evidence that Putin was not telling the truth. If you don’t beleive the Russian government, why do you believe the UK one; they are both governments and therefore will say whatever is expedient? If you don’t believe Putin, why do you believe May; they are both politicians?
“The lack of a charge for the killing of Dawn Sturgess and the poisoning of Charlie Rowley is surely because the evidence of a direct causal connection with the “Salisbury Tourists” and the scent bottle with the Novichok agent is lacking…”
Why do you keep posting this rubbish? Don’t you know actually know anything at all about the case?
The authorities have told us that the same agent was used to poison the Skripals, and was in the perfume bottle, and was used to poison Charlie R and Dawn S, and was found in the hotel room of Pushkin and Gripak or whatever their names are supposed to be today. They’ve told us with great fanfare, and Teresa May, and denunciations in the UN, and Sherlock Holmes aka Bellingcat making statesmanlike presentations in the Houses of Parliament…
So basically, your argument could best be summed up as “quite long, inane bollocks”.
We have been told it was the same form of nerve agent in both cases. There has been no satisfactory explanation of how an apparently unopened fake perfume bottle contsining a novichok agent, got into the charity bin where it was found by Charlie Rowley two months after the attack on the Skripals.
The suggestion that it was the same bottle which was used to smear the Skripals door handle, then carefully dismantled, reassembled and repackaged and dropped into a charity bin where it remained, undiscovered, in mint condition for two months before Charlie R found it.? That takes us into Alice in Wonderland territory.
I also recall that the police did not find the source of the novichok agent in Charlie’s flat until he recovered consciousness and told them about the perfume bottle which was sitting all that time on his kitchen counter.
Nobody I know believes the official version. They just do not spend time wondering what happened, unlike the small coterie of obsessives like me on here.
@Mary Paul,
Whilst I totally agree with your post, the timeline is even greater between the Skripal poisonings and the Rowley/Sturgess ones.
Skripal 4/3/18
Rowley/Sturges 30/6/18
This is the best part of four months, so even more unbelievable.
I think the charity bin find is a red herring, because after the poisoning, Rowley cannot seem to remember where he found the bottle.
Earlier reports seem to suggest that it was found behind a bush in Queen Elizabeth Gardens, where the Skripals were in fact giving bread to a young lad to feed the ducks.
The police noticed that this had taken place and contacted the parents,avising them to take him to hospital and burn the clothes he was wearing that day. Young Aiden Cooper and the Salisbury ducks seem to have survived contact with the deadly nerve agent.
https://www.theblogmire.com/its-the-wrong-park-how-the-ducks-raise-some-serious-questions-in-the-salisbury-poisonings/
@MaryPaul
Who said it was the same bottle used in the Skripal incident? That’s just a supposition on your part. What we know is that it is the same agent poisoned the Skripals and killed Dawn. We manifestly do not know it was from the same container, nor is there any necessity that it was.
Jeremy Hunt or maybe Ben Wallace, I know it was one of them, said it in the House of Commons actually.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/novichok-attack-russian-spies-airport-security-how-smuggled-chemical-weapon-russia-uk-a8534511.html
“What we know is that it is the same agent poisoned the Skripals and killed Dawn.”
No we don’t. All we know is that our government has asserted that it is the same agent poisoned the Skripals and killed Dawn. That doesn’t mean that it was and given how unlikely the explanations are as to how it could be, it is “highly likely” that it is just more bullshit to add to the mountain of ordure this affair has collected.
They cannot identify a “nerve agent” but they can identify compounds and since those nerve agents work like permethrin works – and its effects are often mistaken for organosphosphates – both attack the central nervous system. Then again there are other chemical compounds which interfere with the CNS such as Fentanyl. By that CNS definition they are all “nerve agents”
The OPCW report was crystal clear stating that the two chemical agents could NOT be assumed to have come from the same batch . Your police didn’t charge on dawn and Charlie because they Can’t just ignore the OPCW report . Otherwise they would .
Nobody has said that they necessarily came from the same batch. What the OPCW said was it was the same agent. It is yet to be determined how the bottle that Charlie Rowley came across was left where it was and who did it.
Let’s be clear about this – the perfume bottle story is a very elaborate lie put out by the Govt to keep up the anti-Russian hysteria. It stinks to high heaven for God’s sake. Charlie and Dawn were serious drug addicts and alcohol addicts. They have absolutely nothing to do with any of this just the fact that they lived in the Salisbury area.
See my link above. Ben Wallace said in Parlament that same fake perfume bottle which was found by Charlie Rowley was also the discarded source of the novichok agent used on tbe Skripals door handle. I think Mr Wallace is what is called a useful idiot.
Steve, given the Government quite clearly gave the OPCW a ‘pure’ sample of the alleged nerve agent – noting there were no impurities and this only 6-7 weeks after the incident so there was no chain of custody for the UK Government sample and this now alleged nerve agent in a sealed perfume bottle found in a charity bin being the same agent is absolutely ludicrous. Go back to the published press at the time, the police said the inadvertently, whilst rummaging through a bin a local PARK which the container had been thrown into. That was some 3 months after the Skripal incident. Question? Do Park bins never get emptied? Question? Do charity bins never get emptied? Question? Did the OPCW take any samples from Dawn or Charlie? No of course they didn’t. QED: Who gave the sample to the OPCW? The UK Govt of course. They delayed giving the first sample to the OPCW and declined to engage with international law and protocol in the joint investigations from the outset. WHy? Because their hands are filthy with lies, attempted murder and abduction. It was only when Porton Down could produce a chemical substance similar to Novichock could they then send the sample to Porton Down. Me? I think Dr Davies was absolutely correct, nobody was admitted to Salisbury Hospital suffering from nerve agent poisoning. Smeared on a door knob and found by the Governemnt still there six weeks later? B-s of the grandest order. Two cats and two guinea pigs alive but not very due to severe malnutrition. The Pub and Zizzis not contaminated at all. Skripals wandering around Salisbury for 4 hrs with no symptons. Not one single eye witness (i.e. close neighbours or anyone else) saying they saw people in protective clothing at the Skripals house smearing something on the door knob and yes, they would have had to be wearing protective clothing given it is a deadly nerve agent which kills in seconds. I can’t even begin to imagine what what you see in the Government account that is at all believable. They have consistently lied, told the biggest fairy tale ever, never once, not even now to date, provided a single shred of evidence to other European countries or NATO that it was either Novichok or Russia and have refused to provide that evidence – why, because their story is one whopping big lie – if it wasn’t – they would be showering the evidence from the highest rooftops.
The problem was the concentration of the agent examined was incompatible with temporal degradation. After all the agent (if produced) was supposed to be a binary.
I’m afraid Stonky, your reasoning is seriously flawed. Do you really believe, a deadly nerve agent 10 times more powerful than VX would be found in a hotel room quite conveniently of course, of the two people Belingcat claim to be involved. Not only that, I guess the Police, at the time, would have had hazmet suits etc to go into the hotel room. Do you know exactly on what date they found the alleged bottle of perfume because, remember, the official story changed didn’t it from: in a powder form sprayed around, in the car in liquid form, smeared to the door of the car then in gel form and smeared on the Skripal’s doorknob. Now then, all this was stated as absolute fact by the Government at the time. DO you seriously now believe the bottle of perfume story? Added to which of course, the substance has never been identified as Novichok but BZ was found in the sample. The UK Government refused to engage with international l aw and protocol in investigating this matter because their hands are not clean. They didn’t involve the OPCW until much later on. That is, until Porton Down could provide them with the novichock/unknown substance etc – then they submitted a sample to the OPCW. The highly respected Swiss Lab found it to be 98% pure – in other words, had not been exposed to any external elements. Let’s be clear, the only time Novichock was allegedly smeared on the door knob is when HMG did it for the OPCW sample. There are no circumstances under which a nerve agent or chemical agent would survive six weeks on a door knob in inhospitable weather. The cats and guinea pigs were suffering severe malnutrition and had to be put down because of it – they did not die of any exposure to any chemical. Charlie and Dawn have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Do please, Stonky, avail yourself of PROPER facts will you before you write what you refer to as a ‘quite long inane bollocks’
“I’m afraid Stonky, your reasoning is seriously flawed…”
I think you’ve got the wrong end of the stick Jo. I don’t believe a word of the authorities’ version of events. I’m simply pointing out to “Steve Jones” that the non-excuses for avoiding charging Mork and Mindy with the murder of Dawn Sturgess make no sense in the context of what the authorities claim to have happened, but are perfectly understandable in the context of alternative explanations.
Apologies Stonky, I did misunderstand
Jo, I admire your persistence, but we have come to the point now when people either believe the UK government and nothing you say will make them think any differently, or they think almost everything in the whole saga is a falsehood, in which case you are preaching to the converted.
I would suggest that misleading Putin would not be a wise action in Russia.
Why do you think that ? I am sure he has been misled many times. Even the President of the United States is lied to by his Officials
Does T May know all the details of what MI6 is up to, not to mention every other government department? Does Trump know what the CIA is doing? The answer is probably no, so we should not expect more of Putin. In most countries there is a great deal of delegation. He may have signed off on some general edict that defectors are suitable assassination targets, or perhaps that was a pre-existing law from soviet times and he may even have been briefed on this particular operation but to what extent it is impossible to say. Bare in mind the Syria conflict and domestic approval ratings probably consume much of his time.
Steve,
I agree. Can it be that Putin is not giving this his full attention?
It seems unlikely, but his control is under question.
Might not be a good thing to be in his focus now.
Mr. Skripal was admittedly a double agent but the British Version of Events was a dog’s dinner
Suddenly we have a random appearance of two Russians to apparently bolster in some way the British Version of Events
It is beyond the bounds of possibility that Boshirov and Petrov are also double agents, or at the very least disavowable ‘cut outs’ who may someday be found ‘dead’ in order to point a convenient finger at Russia once again.
At least until they are found alive again somewhere else, like a certain reporter.
Third paragraph should have read
“Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that Boshirov and Petrov are also double agents…”
I find it extremely difficult to believe that Boshirov and Petrov are, indeed, aliases. As a white South African married (for over 40 years) to an English woman, the amount of information that I have to take to the British consulate (some 60 kilometres or 40 miles away) is simply unbelievable. From having to prove that I am actually married to my wife to having to prove that my father was indeed married to my mother, as well as the financial ability to stay in the UK for the period of my intended visit, where we intend staying, how we intend traveling there etc, etc, etc, to the degree that, the last time I told my wife to visit her family on her own and the consular official to stuff his country where the sun did not shine. Yet we are expected to believe that two suspicious Russians were able to get into the UK as though they carried Schengen passports? Not even remotely possible.
These guys travelled regularly to and around Europe using the Petrov and Boshiroff surnames. FWIW the Daily Mail had a comment in one account that they had been issued with visas after “pressure” was placed on the British Embassy in Moscow. No further details given.
There are some who believe Nelson Mandela was an MI6 agent. I doubt he had to prove much other than he was no longer living on Robben Island. These two couriers were probably known to MI6 and knew they were known to MI6 which is why they were so casual.
They probably entered the UK to undertake a “document drop” without knowing who the documents were for. They went back to collect them signed and return them to Russia.
as though they carried Schengen passports?
What are Schengen passports ??????
Anyway this is fun……
http://www.rbth.com/international/2014/07/14/visiting_britain_an_impossible_dream_38175.html
http://www.gov.uk/government/news/changes-to-the-visa-service-in-russia-2
http://tass.com/politics/1016067
Paul, put yourself into the shoes of the head of the GRU, and assume for a moment that you have just been given order from The Boss to kill some old coot who lives alone in Salisbury.
HERE IS WHAT YOU DON’T DO:
a) Give your two assassins fake Russian passports and make them apply for UK Visas
b) Send them on a direct Moscow-to-London flight
c) Give them exactly one weekend to make the hit
d) Order them to head to Salisbury by Public Transport (!!!!)
e) Insist that they use a means of assassination that points directly to Russia
f) Tell them that it isn’t necessary to confirm that the victim has been exposed to that weapon
g) But also insist that they aimlessly wander around Salisbury for several hours afterward
h) Tell them they must make the return trip to London by Public Transport (!!!)
I) Get them to take a direct flight home London-to-Moscow.
Any one of those items would be enough to get that GRU Head Honcho cashiered, but according to Teresa May his supposed-assassins did every single thing on that list.
HERE IS WHAT HE WOULD DO
a) Issue brand-new use-once fake Russian passports to the two assassins
b) Make them travel separately to a country in the Schengen zone (say, oh, “Salzburg, Austria”)
c) Get them to meet secretly with a local consular officer to
(i) hand over their Russian passports
(ii) be handed fake Austrian passports (but of real residents of Salzburg)
d) Use those new identities to travel separately to London without needing a visa
e) Spend a week or more in London checking to see that they aren’t under surveillance
f) Meet secretly with a local consular official who
(i) hands them keys to a hire car
(ii) hands them a handgun/silencer “of a type developed in Britain”
(iii) assures them that Yulia Skripal has now returned to Moscow
g) Drive to Salisbury taking care to avoid wherever possible main roads, traffic cameras, etc
h) Knock on Skripal’s front door and shoot the old coot dead when he answers
i) Leave some nondescript paperwork with Orbis letterhead on it, then lock the door as they leave
j) Drive back to London, hand over the car keys, and then take separate flights to Salzburg
k) Hand over the fake Austrian passports and retrieve their fake Russian passports
l) Fly back to Moscow, destroy the fake Russian passports, make a cup of tea and relax.
That’s how the professionals would do it, and the chances of the UK or Bellingcat being any the wiser is just about zero.
Yeah, you are not only Right, you are also correct.
Two corrections.
1. Enter and leave the UK illegally with no papers, bypassing border controls. In a country surrounded by sea it won’t be a problem for a state actor.
2. Use a scooter to move around. They have no license plates and the helmet is an excellent disguise.
Igor, you want to be out of the country before the old coot’s body is even discovered.
Getting to a boat to make your escape doesn’t allow that.
I did not know that scooters lack license plates, and I take your point about helmets. But using a scooter would suggest using a solitary assassin, not that this necessarily makes much of a difference.
@Igor,
All road going vehicles, including scooters have number plates.
Bicycles do not.
or light aircraft touching down on remote airfield at night
How about redoing that with this old coot needs to be given a traitors death. (either hung drawn and quartered or poisoning by nerve agent or something along those lines)
The flaw in i) of HERE’S WHAT HE WOULD DO is that it links the hire car to the embassy. A second flaw is the embassy now needs to be involved – they are not under control of GRU. To be credible the plan needs to involve only GRU resources.
If you want a car, I’d suggest buying cash only from a private sale giving false details as the best option.
“How about redoing that with this old coot needs to be given a traitors death.”
Well, that’s easily fixed: take the old coot out of his Moscow prison cell, line him up against the wall, and shoot him dead.
Could have been done years ago, sends exactly the same message, and saves on the airfares.
“The flaw in i) of HERE’S WHAT HE WOULD DO is that it links the hire car to the embassy”
I didn’t say that the consular official is the one who hired the car, I simply said he is the one who hands the keys over. You want someone with diplomatic immunity when handovers take place.
“A second flaw is the embassy now needs to be involved – they are not under control of GRU.”
Andrew, you need to bring faked passports, weapons, etc., in by diplomatic bag. Of course the embassy needs to be involved and, yes, there will be GRU in every embassy.
“If you want a car, I’d suggest buying cash only from a private sale giving false details as the best option.”
A distinction without a difference, except that with a hire car you know it isn’t going to conk out on you as you make your getaway.
It’s hard to fault your logic, except that every proven secret-service assassination I have read about has involved many more than two people in the field. And you might add that three other things the head honcho would not do is permit them to indulge in pot-smoking and prostitutes the evening before the operation, order them to go ahead with the hit even if (for example) the weather suddenly turned hostile and dispose of any lethal weaponry they had left over in a bin where it might cause unpredictable collateral damage.
“And you might add that three other things the head honcho would not do is permit them to indulge in pot-smoking and prostitutes the evening before the operation”
My theory on that is they needed to bring in a fair amount of cash to the UK to be allowed in easily (they always want to know about funds at the border and a credit card is not good for this kind of operation). Call it a daily allowance. Their choice of what to do with it: stay in a nice hotel with a nice meal etc / save on the hotel and blow it on a reckless evening in London. We should not be surprised of the choice made.
I wouldn’t choose Austria. The obvious thing to do is – and I modified your points a) – d):
a) Issue brand-new, use-once fake Russian passports to the two assassins in St. Petersburg
b) Make them travel separately to Finland (which is in the Schengen zone).
Residents in St. Petersburg get Schengen visa with Finland as entry point with no/little questions asked (border trade, tourism, etc.)
c) Get them to meet secretly with a local consular officer to
(i) hand over their Russian passports
(ii) be handed fake Finnish passports (but of real residents)
d) Use those new identities to travel separately to London without needing a visa. Finland has a visa free regime with the UK.
Oh, agreed, the details could be different.
The essential point is that you wouldn’t go directly from Moscow to London and back again.
You would go to a third country, change your “nationality” and your passport, and then continue on.
You could even return to a different country within the Schengen zone, then travel back to Finland via a variety of different transport, and only then switch back to your Russian identity.
The chances of the authorities being able to follow that trail are close to zero.
Because – let’s face it – why on Earth would you make your GRU assassins apply for a visa?
It makes no sense at all.
@Yeah, Right,
Absolutely superb, well done. You should apply for a job in the GRU, because going by what our media and politicians say, they obviously need a shakeup.
Could have simply subcontracted it to the Saudis who could have sliced them in pieces on the park bench in full view of the public and not one word of criticism would have come from Washington, London, Berlin, Paris or British Aerospace, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, EADS or Dassault
No, they would have been discrete about it – they would have waited until Sergei entered the pub and then butchered him on the bar.
After all, pubs are used to being hosed down after closing….
Here here Stephen. And yes, to the previous poster, it is beyond the realm of possibility that these two could be secret agents.
Owen Jones exposed a telegraph journalist as working for MI6: brave lad .
https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/10/14/owen-jones-leaves-a-telegraph-editor-with-so-little-credibility-the-guy-deletes-his-twitter-account/
Thanks Isa,
I think Owen has to tread very carefully now, given his comments about Saudi Arabia, UAE and Bahrain, plus of course our very own immoral and conniving security services.
Udo Ulfkotte from the Frankfurt Allgemeine Zeitung wrote “ journalists for hire – how the CIA buys the news “ in 2014. He exposed how reputable journalists in Europe and the USA put their names or wrote in the interest of intelligence services . The book in English is not available as the Canadian publisher who bought the English language rights simply never published it or don’t allow its sale . You will find it on amazon at 1000 dollars but I dare say if you went through with the purchase it will tell you there’s none in stock …
Owen was brave but I wonder does he recognise that this more than likely happens in the guardian , bbc , NYT and other media of international reach. I can think of several names .
https://gosint.wordpress.com/2018/05/06/one-year-ago-journalists-for-hire-how-the-cia-buys-the-news/
You can watch his interview here :,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3AW2YFbqJE
Coughlin is a soak by appearances who was tutored by Niall Ferguson. It has been so obvious that Coughlin is a fictional character in an Evelyn Waugh novel
actually Simon Schama……mea culpa
Part of Operation Mass Appeal. The security services used editors and journalists to plant stories about weapons of mass destruction before the invasion of Iraq. To set the ‘agenda’. Rings a bell about the Salisbury ‘incident’.
Thanks for the operation mass appeal tip . I’ll chrck it out .
@Tarla,
Thanks for that, British blackops misinformation programme, deliberately feeding the BBC etc with bogus news stories.
The problem with that is, they lose the trust of every single person who is capable of thinking. We know the lies about Iraq, so it surely follows that there are lies about Libya, Syria, Iran and Russia.
Operation Mockingbird…..it is how the Graham Family got control of Washington Post using CIA money. Press ownership is so often funded and not just with the “Bouncing Czech” Cap’n Bob Maxwell using Mossad money
Sorry can’t take Owen seriously with his flip-floppery.
Last heard hanging out with the actual 6 pawn Luke on the streets of London pointing at Russian owned properties.
He is now busy being sold to the momenters as anti-establishment. So that he can rebuild his gate keeping credentials.
The guy ought to put on a hair shirt by writing about the shit in his own house first or go join the bellend pussies and be done with the pretence.
The police have been elsewhere. Under whose watch and under which government was this happening over decades? Verily a police state. Any prosecutions? Probably not.
Police spies infiltrated UK leftwing groups for decades
Exclusive: database shows 124 green, anti-racist and other groups spied on by undercover police
Groups spied on by undercover police – search the list
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-police-spies-infiltrated-uk-leftwing-groups-for-decades
Sharp Ears
October 15, 2018 at 10:41
“Police spies infiltrated UK leftwing groups for decades”
The CIA infiltrated British university`s since the late 1950`s.
British journos go to CIA finishing schools at private US universities before being launched in their careers.
They are the Qanonsborg!
Bill Clinton was a CIA operative at Oxford as Rhodes Scholar monitoring US students Anti-Vietnam activities in UK.
Rather than a criminal trial how would the Russian experts feel about the UK government filing a civil court case in Russia to seek damages from Chepiga and Mishkin? They seem to be sitting on some nice Moscow properties of value.
In a civil case, there would be no need to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt (only on a balance of probability). Also this would force them into court, so it would be clear if they are B&P or not – and arguably that identification alone would be sufficient to get a judgement for tens of millions in damages. (assuming the Russian court system has judges that are independent of the Kremlin).
Bellingcat have published their story and shown their workings. I’m not sure it is enough to haughtily dismiss them as ‘puppets’.
Are their conclusions correct or not? All the circumstantial evidence (and there is now a lot of it) points to the Skripals being subject of an assassination attempt by the GRU. This may not be the full story – but lurid alternate narratives need to be challenged against information in the public domain.
As for poor Dawn Sturgess – it seems that she was an unintended victim or collateral damage. If anything it surely points to the sheer callousness of foreign agents using deadly chemical weapons on British soil.
Again, if someone has an alternative narrative, I think it’s time to put up or shut up. Whataboutery doesn’t cut it.
@Jacomo,
OK, from your understanding of the “facts” please tell us the timeline of the events on Sunday 4th March, where they (Skripals and two stooges) went, where and when the Skripals were poisoned, who saw them, who actually noticed the two stooges on that day, apart from CCTV cameras. Who came into contact with or saw the Skripals that day?
@Andyoldlabour,
Rather than just throw chaff in the air, what is your theory?
Two GRU officers travel to Salisbury under assumed identities, and then a retired Russian spy and his daughter get poisoned by a chemical weapon. The two GRU officers then do a tv interview under their assumed identities, claiming they were tourists.
Why are they stooges? Why do you ask if anyone saw them? Do you deny they were in Salisbury at all?
I’ve not picked through the timeline in forensic detail. It may be that not all the information required to do so is in the public domain. But they is substantial circumstantial evidence pointing to Russia, and none pointing to anyone else.
As I said above, wild theories are fun but they lack any basis in fact.
In terms of a timeline here is what I would like a definitive accounting for:
1) When did the Skripals leave their house?
2) At what time were they seen returning to that house?
3) When did Sergei Skripal feed bread to the ducks in that park?
4) Did Sergei and Yulia go to the pub first, and then to Zizzi for dinner, and if so then when?
5) Can we have an accounting of all the times when the whereabouts of the Skripals is unknown?
I would like a precise map showing their assumed movements on that day (with definite, timestamped, sightings clearly marked) plus a likewise marking of the supposed movements of the alleged GRU assassins, likewise timestamped.
I would also like to see a timeLINE showing when S&Y were unaccounted for, laid over a timeLINE showing when B&P were unaccounted for.
I’d like some explanation from the Met Police for why it is impossible for S&Y to be meeting with B&P on those times when both are unaccounted for.
As in:
a) If Sergei Skripal was feeding ducks in that park is it possible that B&P were also there?
b) When Sergei Skripal was shunting (which order?) between pub and restaurant where were B&P?
c) When Sergei Skripal drove into a car park where were B&P?
Because I find it amazing how…. fuzzy…. the Met Police timeline actually is.
And how often they place either S&Y or B&P somewhere without showing any evidence to support it.
And I find it absolutely astonishing that the Met won’t even comment on the claim that Sergei Skripal was feeding bread to ducks while his hands were coated with “goopy Novichok”
Again, this desperation to pick any hole in the case, and avoid answering more fundamental questions.
Why were two GRU officers in Salisbury under assumed identities? Is it really a coincidence that the Skripals were poisoned the same day?
If these two guys are not GRU and were not in Salisbury, explain why or shut it.
I think even Craig realises he’s been barking up the wrong tree with this one.
Why did two GRU officers well known to the British embassy, that gave them visa, travel around Europe for years using the same names?
They may or may not have been involved with Skripals but this is certainly not a professional way of doing an assassination.
If the intention was to deepen the public rift between Russia and Europe, then yes. You would do it exactly this way.
“Again, this desperation to pick any hole in the case, and avoid answering more fundamental questions.”
Yours is a faith-based certainty that the events unfolded in the manner that the UK Authorities claim that it did. That is why the inconsistencies and gaps in the official narrative do not bother you in the slightest: indeed, that simply appear to annoy you, because as far as you appear to be concerned the “truth” is that you know because you know that you know.
“Why were two GRU officers in Salisbury under assumed identities? ”
Not as difficult a question as you appear to believe: *IF* they were GRU officers then they were there to make contact with Sergei Skripal and make an offer to him: return to Moscow, spill the beans on Orbis and the Trump Dossier, and all will be forgiven.
“Is it really a coincidence that the Skripals were poisoned the same day?”
Oh, I quite agree with you: *IF* they were GRU officers then the timing of the attack on Sergei Skripal would not be a coincidence.
It would be timed to
A) Foil the offer of a return to Moscow in exchange for shafting Orbis over the Trump Dossier
B) Pin the blame for the attack on the Russians, all the better to avoid any suggestion of a link between Sergei Skripal and Orbis and the Trump Dossier.
“If these two guys are not GRU and were not in Salisbury, explain why or shut it.”
Non-sequitur.
Neither Boshirov nor Petrov deny being in Salisbury that day.
They openly admit being there, even as they loudly deny that they are GRU.
The correct question is this: If they were not GRU then what were they doing in Salisbury that day?
Their answer is already on record: they were sightseeing, because Salisbury is famous for its cathedral.
“I think even Craig realises he’s been barking up the wrong tree with this one.”
I do not pretend to claim that I know what Craig “realises”.
It’s probably not a good idea for you to claim that you do.
And on a final note: am I the only person who finds this juxtaposition hilarious?
Jacomo (then): “Rather than just throw chaff in the air, what is your theory?”
Jacomo (now): “Again, this desperation to pick any hole in the case, and avoid answering more fundamental questions.”
I answered the question that you asked, sunshine, so stop with the faux outrage.
After all, I’m not a f**king mindreader, and even if I were I doubt that I’d want to delve too deep into your noggin’.
@Yeah Right,
Exactly the sort of things people should be asking, not simply answering “not in the public domain” when asked questions about missing/contradictory information.
@Jacomo,
“If these two guys are not GRU and were not in Salisbury, explain why or shut it.”
Oooh! How rude!
Is your real name Gavin “shurrupandgoaway” Williamson?
There are far more unanswered questions than this pair.
@Yeah,Right,
And I find it absolutely astonishing that the Met won’t even comment on the claim that Sergei Skripal was feeding bread to ducks while his hands were coated with “goopy Novichok”
That is definitely one of the big questions which has been brushed aside – goopy Novichock on doorknob – wouldn’t any normal person immediately wash their hands to get the goopy stuff off?
What about the lad in the park, given bread by the goopy Novichock hands – he hasn’t been contaminated, no dead ducks.
OH, Oh – just let me reset my brain.
I believe implicitly everything state media tells me. All UK politicians and police are the most honest in the World. Nice mr Tony Bliar got rid of Saddam Hussein when we were 45 minutes from being vapourised. We are so lucky to be living in a civilised, honest, corruption free democracy.
@ Yeah Right,
I have the very opposite of a faith based certainty here.
I have no idea what happened to the Skripals, and have never claimed to do so. I have no intention of embarking upon my own investigation or examination of what is in the public domain.
I am simply following events as they are reported. I have read the Bellingcat stories and I have read the conspiracy theories about them.
But I’ve yet to read anything that credibly challenges their conclusions – that these two were GRU operatives.
It’s fun to have a theory – and maybe they really were in Salisbury to rescue Skripal from the evil clutches of the British security services, who knows?
But unless there is some evidence to back this up, it falls into the same category as those who insist the Twin Towers were actually detonated by the CIA: unhinged nonsense.
Sorry this case has not provided the smoking gun that confirms your world view. I really am. But I don’t think I can spend anymore time down this particular rabbit hole.
“I have read the Bellingcat stories and” …. and a more revealing slip of the tongue has seldom been uttered.
“The correct question is this: If they were not GRU then what were they doing in Salisbury that day? Their answer is already on record: they were sightseeing, because Salisbury is famous for its cathedral.”
Everyone appears to be assuming, because that is what the security services want us to assume, that B&P came to the UK to carry out some business in Salisbury. But what if they came to the UK to carry out some business in London and, business concluded, decided to have a day trip to Salisbury?
“But what if they came to the UK to carry out some business in London and, business concluded, decided to have a day trip to Salisbury?”
Because they went to Salisbury on two consecutive days, which doesn’t really leave any days for “carrying out some business in London”
“which doesn’t really leave any days for “carrying out some business in London”
There were always the evenings and the business need not have taken very long. How long does it take to hand over a package or letter and get some sort of receipt?
That way they could perfectly truthfully say that they were in Salisbury for purposes of sightseeing, conveniently omitting to mention the fact that that wasn’t why they were in the UK.
In fact they might have been told to go somewhere “cultural” and do some sightseeing as an ostensible reason for their visit to the UK. Too bad they didn’t go to the Tower of London.
Whether or not it is the right place to do, I want to share a piece by David Jonathon Blake. He writes:
“21/ But the metadata tells us another more confusing story.
exif.tools/https://www.wi…
exif.tools/https://www.wi…
In that story Petrov passes beneath the camera at 18:43:50, while Boshirov passes through two minutes or so later at 18:46:30.
That’s more logical. But. Get this.
22/ The metadata gives a different date: Thursday 3rd May 2018.
3/ To be clear the metadata doesn’t seem to be of the original CCTV image. There’s no camera make, for example, as one would expect for an original camera image. It could well be the Police are looking at these images from a central command post, so no camera make may be in it.
24/ It could well be that these are the dates where the image was originally found at Police HQ.
BUT the times they past the camera NOT matching makes sense, while passing at the same second (in what looks like the same spot) doesn’t.
25/ And there’s others
Image name | Police Claimed Date | Metadata Create Date
CCTV4 | Sunday 4 March 2018 11:48:20 | Wednesday 2 May 2018 09:00:50
CCTV6 | Sunday 4 March 2018 13:05:00 | Wednesday 9 May 2018 09:00:46
…
26/
CCTV7 | Sunday 4 March 2018 13:08:00 | Thursday 10 May 2018 17:41:58
CCTV8 | Sunday 4 March 2018 13:50:00 | Wednesday 2 May 2018 09:20:58
All very curious.
27/
Dear Police,
You know the public is difficult and suspicious. Thanks for leaving some metadata in, but why not include the “original CCTV” images and their metadata to stop “conspiracy nutcases” like myself thinking you’re full of it?” >
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1037792827172896769.html
I am no expert in this matter, so I can´t do it myself. Perhaps somebody else can and try to explain further.
Blake says in his blog about the 2nd March Gatwick images:
“The metadata gives a different date: Thursday 3rd May 2018.”
3rd May happens to be the day before the investigators took forensic samples containing Novichhok at the City Stay Hotel in Bow Road, London (at least that’s what the Met said in September):
“On 4 May 2018, tests were carried out in the hotel room where the suspects had stayed.”
It’s most likely that the metadata of the Gatwick images got ‘updated’ while being processed in early May, when the Met were adding to their story about the suspects.
The notion that Petrov and Boshirov could get a fair trial in England is beyond naive. Did you not notice a judge sending fracking protesters to prison purely because it suited the fracking interest?
Just a further thought here. If it is true that Barnier today said the EU might be willing to extend the UK’s transition period from the EU for another year then it is highly likely that all this is to put pressure on the EU to support the UK in its ‘oh dear, we are so consumed with the Russian threat and Skripal we have been unable to pay attention to Brexit negotiations’ narrative. If this Government has succeeded in this, shame on the EU for falling for it.
The Skripals are back in the news:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/salisbury-poisoning-victim-sergei-skripals-13434451
What a lot of tripe from the Mirror! I like the way they suddenly remember to put in an “allegedly” halfway through…
Seems to hint the Skripals are in the USA but maybe that is a double bluff?
When former Russian spy Sergei Skripal went missing in England earlier this year, there was almost immediate punitive action by the British government and its NATO allies against Moscow. By contrast, Western governments are straining with restraint towards Saudi Arabia over the more shocking and provable case of murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
Russia should buy weapons from UK like they did in 1945-47 when UK sold them 55 Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent jet engines which they reverse-engineered.
http://www.scribd.com/document/348146414/Cold-War-Britain-vs-USSR
I’m told these Russian diesels were reverse-engineered from American ones. As the smoke clears, we see another 3 engines at the back of the train. I wonder whether the crew of the engines at the back were suffocated in the tunnel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEETEOcQW90
For anyone interested in Syria and the White Helmets, I came across this today 19th October.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-vanessa-beeley-meets-the-white-helmets-and-armed-group-leader-in-daraa-al-balad/5657409
There is a profile of Bellingcat and its access to Russian data in this week’s Spectator. I do not have a URL for the actual article as it is behind a firewall. Anybody?
https://web.archive.org/web/20181020103510/https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/how-bellingcat-outfoxes-the-worlds-spy-agencies/