One might hope the role of the monarchy in the prorogation plot, and then Theresa May’s cronies getting honours in her resignation list, might do enough to undermine public confidence in some of the systems that define the British establishment. But the honours list will shortly be further devalued by political muck as Jo Swinson’s office is proffering peerages and knighthoods in the dissolution honours to candidates and their constituency chairmen in winnable seats, if they are willing to make way for Blairite entryists like Chuka Umunna and Luciana Berger.
The difficulty is that a Lib Dem candidate in South West London or South West England has a very good chance of becoming an MP in the next election. It is not obvious to many why they should make way for a right wing war hawk with no connection to liberalism who has only just joined the party. Swinson sees the certainty of the Lords in exchange for a prospect of the Commons as a fair offer. Many ordinary party members would see this as beyond words sordid.
One person not being offered a peerage is Clareine Enderby, the Lib Dem candidate for the normally no LibDem hope seat of Finchley and Golders Green. There has been massive media speculation that she will stand down for Luciana Berger to replace her, and to be fair, Ms Enderby has been making plain that, so far as she is concerned, there is no vacancy.
As the Jewish Chronicle points out, it is by no means certain that Berger would want to stand in Finchley as opposed to a more normally winnable Lib Dem target, if Swinson can promise to boot an incumbent candidate into the Lords to make way for her.
The entire shenanigans leave an extremely bad taste in the mouth. Abuse of the honours system and pandering to the desires of the most unprincipled career politicians in the country are just the start of it. The Blairites repeatedly justified their hostility to Corbyn by saying that they had a personal mandate from their constituents. Yet at the first opportunity they are running like rabbits from the judgement of their constituents in the hope of finding more malleable ones.
If Ms Enderby is indeed replaced by Luciana Berger she will be a victim of racism, as the sole grounds on which Ms Berger is being touted as preferable for that particular constituency is her ethnicity. Victims of racism do not always themselves wish to complain due to societal or personal pressures. But I should certainly be entering a formal complaint about it.
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Yeah the Lib/Dems will campaign on any ticket to get their fat arses into a ministerial car Swinson is a vile Machiavellian creature, who’d sell her granny to become ermine vermin.
Needless to say her Scottish branch manager Willie Rennie is on the same wavelength as her. As repugnantand vile and Rennie is, Lib/Dem Alex Cole-Hamilton must be at the bottom of the Lib/Dem barrel in Scotland.
I would have thought someone like you would be extremely happy and throwing your full support behind Ms. Swinson.
After all she wants to remain in the EU (as do you) and is prepared to ignore the outcome of the referendum. Surely if you can ignore the result of one referendum then you can ignore the result of any other referendum. And thus by magic you can achieve Scottish independence by simply ignoring the result of the independence referendum.
There should really be no referenda in a country tha is led by thhe nose for decades. Independent political will and reforms are stifled at the drop of the MSMs hat and people who have their own agendas chime in.
Party politics in all its ugly form is visible to all, still they waste hope, somewhere between wishful thinking and self delusion, on snollygosters and Royals tainted with a right wing past.
Modernisation of this system should be written down in a definitive Constitution and enacted by law.
A written constitution would be an interesting exercise.
Presumably it would need to say something about free speech. Maybe something like free speech for those educated at Eton and Oxford and no free speech at al for those educated in a British housing project.
Would a written constitution necessarily perform the functions that the drafters of such a constitution would intend it to perform? The Democratic presidential contender, Pete Buttigeg does not think so. He is busy trying to organize a social media mob to put pressure on large private corporations to effectively deny US citizens their constitutionally protected rights.
It is difficult to see how deriving individual rights from Mastercard, Google and Twitter represents an improvement over deriving rights from the Government.
The thing with written constitutions is that they are written at a partcular time in history and rarely is formal provision made to write a completely new one a few centuries later. You know, when internet etc makes society look totally different to 1776 or 1789….
It is like the bible and christianity. You are told to pickle yourself in a book written 2000 years ago. No-one has rewritten one for The Age of Aquarius, have they?
Just go read what physicists throught about nuclear power in the 1930s, then read what they thought in the late 1950s when nuclear weapons arms races were in full tilt.
Similar people, different circumstances…
Constitutions are similar…
You are supposed to think, Jaggar, that the Bible (both old and new testaments) contains eternal truth, not just something relevant to one particular time. The Archbish of Canterbury won’t be very happy with your heretical views.
I have heard it all now. The Week in Westminster on Radio 4 this morning featured opinions on Dominic Cummings. One by the name of Sam Freedman, an ex Gove policy adviser who worked with Cummings for Gove, said that Cummings’ aim was to destroy the establishment. LOL Cummings works for the establishment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0008h3q 18 mins in
Freedman (who resembles Adrian Mole) has found a niche for himself.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/former-gove-adviser-sam-freedman-leaves-teach-first-to-join-ark/
Another contributor was Chris Cook who works for Turquoise Media. That is the outfit started by James Harding, the Zionist supporter who was given a job at the BBC along with James Purnell and Ceri Thomas.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/apologists-israel-take-top-posts-bbc/12395
Cummings in an adviser to HMG. Of course we works for the establishment
He’s extremely bright, and very dangerous, but I can’t help admire his disdain for politicians/bureaucrats of all stripes. I also think he is genuinely on the side of the people (however you define that)
If Boris is the UK Trump, is Cummings the UK Bannon….discuss 😉
You can destroy an incumbent Establishment so anew one can take its place.
I believe it is called revolution…
.
It would indeed be fascinating if Cummings were gaming his paymasters.
I recall an Aaron Banks interview where he voiced his support for direct democracy over the representative kind. I end up thinking it is kind of ironic that culturally we lionize children, yet have a system which is distinctly paternal
Obviously ‘anti-establishment’ in the same was as Farage and Rupert Murdoch!
Someone like me?
While the Great British Political Pantomime is attracting almost all attention in the UK. Julian Assange has been “sentenced” to remain imprisoned after serving a ridiculously harsh 50 week sentence for absconding bail.
He is obviously not in a state to prepare his defence. By all reports he is very unwell and his prison conditions seem actively designed to prevent him preparing a proper defence. How is it right that he “attended” his hearing by video link? Surely, this alone flies against all legal fairness. He is not accused of any sort of violent or threatening behaviour but he is locked up with murderers and terrorists.
The charge of “conspiring to hack a password” are ludicrous. The “espionage act” charges are reminiscent of dictatorial regimes.
If a regime other than the United States were to bring such charges (Turkey, for example), they would be laughed at in the mainstream press and (I hope) simply dismissed by the courts.
They are obviously trumped up charges aimed to suppress political criticism and embarrassing information.
The UK’s democracy, monarchy and legal system seem to be rotten to the core. I have begun to doubt whether they will ever let Corbyn become PM.
You need to start asking who controls Britain and what their values are.
Hint: many do not hold UK passports and few believe in democracy.
Judging by your remarks an inch or two down the page and a minute earlier than this one, how can we possibly guess who you think controls Britain. But go on, give us another hint. Spell it out.
glad to see this post remains up. and you’re right, the poodle is rotten to the core.
more Great British Political Panto, from the same Friday, apparently there is a surprising use of PII (public interest immunity certificates?) into the murky depths of the Libyan returnee, M.I. sponsored or not, and his atrocity in Manchester.
https://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/manchester-arena-bombing-evidence-to-be-kept-secret-1.910008
nice to get the up-to-date Priti Patel news direct from the middle east, this time from a UAE news website
David, the story was featured on BBC NW Regional News t’other night. Appears the legal eagles for the victims/families argued for openness and transparency, whilst HMG’s side wanted some evidence heard behind closed doors, on the grounds of…..you guessed it….national security. IIRC, something was mentioned about the hearing changing from an Inquest to a Public Inquiry, as the latter, has provision for evidence to be witheld from wider scrutiny. The presiding Judge found in the Govts favour.
In the same Jewish Chronicle article:
“In 2015, when Labour fielded a Jewish candidate, Sarah Sackman (and had a Jewish leader, Ed Miliband), I personally witnessed distressed Jewish voters confronting her during the election campaign outside Golders Green station, angry at what they perceived as Mr Miliband’s hostility towards Israel.”
And then, also from the JC, I found this:
https://www.thejc.com/news/us-news/israel-denies-accusations-it-spied-on-donald-trump-s-white-house-1.488553
What is wrong with being hostile towards Israel?
Jews need to grow up and learn the difference between being hostile to Jewish individuals because of their Jewishness (a racist position) and being hostile to a nation state that neither abides by international law nor upholds treaties on chemical- and biological weapons.
I am very hostile to any Jew in the UK who considers Israel’s policies on chemical- and biological weapons to be anything but a totally unacceptable disgrace to Jewish values….
Nuclear weapons too of course.
She’s off! In Bournemouth with delusions of grandeur. She needs the election first.
‘Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson says she hopes to convince members to back a policy of scrapping Brexit without another referendum, as the party’s conference begins in Bournemouth.
Ms Swinson says holding the referendum got the UK “into a mess”. And she believes revoking Article 50 – the formal process to leave the EU – is the only satisfactory way out. Ms Swinson said the party’s anti-Brexit message should be “unequivocal” in a general election campaign.’
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49698800
She has been in talks with Plaid Cymru. Thousands of votes there Jo.
I’m not sure all EU27 countries want the UK to remain in the EU at all. Particularly not Emmanuel Macron. (Of course, EM does want a economic good arrangement and “partnership” with the UK, but full UK membership probably not.)
I am not sure that the “simply remain” proponents in the UK realise that for some EU27 countries (notably France), deciding whether to grant the UK an article 50 extension presents them with a strategic quandary. It may lead to an outcome they do not desire.
What on earth makes you think that any of them want the UK to remain?
Well there has been some indication in the columns of Social Europe that many German parliamentarians would like to see the UK remain. We do buy a lot of German cars and kitchens after all. Ditto a lot of Italian white goods and deli produce. Also a lot of Spanish and Dutch tomatoes etc. And Danish bacon.
I suspect quite a lot of EU manufacturers would be sorry to see the UK leave. We can still trade with them of course but it will become more bureaucratic. I suspect that we buy a lot less from France than we do from several other EU trading partners hence France less impacted by our departure. On the other hand we were the EU’s second largest net contributor to its budget in 2017 after Germany – that might concentrate the French minds a bit.
And I gather Romanians and Bulgarians are still moving here and depopulating their own countries. They can go elsewhere in the EU of course. But other destinations are much more bureaucratic and constantly check your paperwork. Once safely in the UK, no one cares about papers and licences, so my Romanian friends tell me.
It would be unwise to think EU opinion is united on what to do about Britain. A lot of people have had enough of Britain playing about, of which another round tomorrow with Johnson sounding off to Juncker, but actually talking to the virulent Brexit revolutionaries in UK (who are the ones who Johnson has to satisfy). There’s no need for the EU to do anything. Britain either comes up with a reasonable offer, or it goes its own way on the 31st, doing its fantasy 1940. But there are still a lot of people in the EU who have a longer-term vision, completely missing in UK, and it’s difficult to exclude Britain from that.
PC caucus with the SNP at Westminster. They and the SNP are tight. Not that PC cannot do what they like but I doubt JS will make much progress there. PC’s vote share in the polls is going up and up, they have won a by-election recently in the Rhonda. Labour lost in the Rhonda!
Why would they make deals with a Unionist like Swinson? They need to do an SNP and take the parliament in Cardiff Bay and govern competently so win more people to the idea that Wales can govern itself.
The position of Wales always was and always will be different from that of Scotland. Plaid will set its own course. That said, from our perspective the LibDems are swerving to the right at an alarming rate, taking on socially illiberal Tories and Blairite, economically indistinguishable from Tories, MPs like Berger. Looks a hell of a like a poisoned chalice to me.
Nothing wrong with an electoral offer. The voters are free to reject it if they so wish.
What is wrong is a Parliament with 500 MPs in parties which pledged in 2017 to deliver Brexit behaving disgracefully to renege on those commitments.
It gets better – and funnier.
https://twitter.com/BritishGQ/status/1172554128914034689
“@joswinson tells @campbellclaret why she is adamant that she could be the next British prime minister”
And there is more. What is this unequivocally pro-Remain party doing? Helping Boris towards retaining the Premiership by assisting Scottish Tories to win seats against the SNP:
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1172786107362226176
NEW: Scottish Tory sources have said informal talks are ‘ongoing’ with the Lib Dems about ensuring the SNP do not have a ‘clean sweep’ of Westminster seats at the next election.
The talks have been confirmed by Alistair Carmichael, who made the schoolboy error of denying a “pact” that nobody had accused him of:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/there-is-no-anti-snp-pact-scottish-lib-dems-deny-new-deal-with-the-tories-1-5004372#comments-area
Liberal Democrat Orkney and Shetland MP Alistair Carmichael told the Press and Journal that while the two parties did talk to each other, there was no pact.
The former Scottish secretary said: “”We all talk to each other of course, but there’s no pact.
Rumours of a targeted non-aggression pact between the LibDems and the Tories.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/westminster/1841548/boris-johnson-risks-sacrificing-the-union-on-the-alter-of-english-nationalism-lib-dems-warn/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Court certified liar Alistair Carmichael (denied leaking a fake diplomatic memo in public only for the truth to come out later) says no.
Two Scottish Tory constituencies are neck and neck (John Lamont & David Mundell), the SNP lead by double figures in the other 11.
Non-aggression pack appears to have been in place in East Dumbartonshire in 2017 where the Tories polled 14.6% in a seat they previously held (some time ago).
Christine Jardine is vulnerable in Edinburgh West with a 2,988 majority.
Not convinced that Jo Swinson is invulnerable with a 5,339 majority. Having been caught breaking election spending rules in 2017 (and let off the hook) will she repeat the offence in the glare scrutiny?
Vivian.
Yeah I’ve read that the treacherous b*stards in the Scottish Lib/Dem branch office are forming an unholy alliance with the nasty party (Tories) in an up and coming election in Scotland to thwart the SNP.
Is Carmichael still their chief whip?
In 2013 he led the charge against David Ward who was suspended by Farron.
https://www.jpost.com/International/British-MP-suspended-by-party-for-apartheid-Israel-comments-320292
Then they came for the Bradford constituents who helped David Ward when he stood as an Independent.
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15312758.bradfords-lib-dems-suspended-for-helping-sacked-candidate-david-ward-in-rival-campaign/
David Ward did not win and neither did the LDs. Ward was the LD MP there 2010-2015.
https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/Constituency/Bradford%20East
If Swinson lost her seat it would be sublime.
Conservative MP Sam Gyimah has joined the Liberal Democrats.
Six MPs have defected to the party in recent weeks, including former Tory MP Philip Lee, and ex-Labour MPs Luciana Berger and Chuka Umunna.
On Twitter, Paul Mason mentions how the Lib Dems are attracting large donations (from Tory donors).
The way FPTP can be manipulated is truly outrageous. The Lib Dems are the establishment’s new useful idiots, as the SDP once were. There is little doubt the forces (big money) behind TIG (later Change) wanted to use them to split the anti-Tory vote. The Lib Dems have instead become their vehicle of choice. No more a party languishing below 10% in the polls, that malign support aimed at splitting the vote has just transferred to them. A third party in a two-party system is one too many.
We saw this attempted with UKIP(and more recently TBP) too; formed by very right wing, disgruntled former Tories, as soon as they were becoming a real threat to the Tories, the Tory press saw the danger and moved to rebrand them and promote the idea they were actually a threat to Labour – in Labour’s northern strongholds, their Tory origins suddenly forgotten.
The British political system is sick. It’s all about the money. See Mr Ehud Sheleg.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/106157/tories-rack-£5m-donations-spring-labour
Sheleg –
Tory party treasurer’s brother and business partner was involved in now-banned binary options industry
https://www.financeuncovered.org/investigations/ehud-sheleg-tory-treasurer-halcyon-gallery-ran-sheleg-binary-options-binary-affiliates/
Well dodgy. Note the royal connections to his gallery. Of course. And the BVI registration. Of course. And the Panama Papers. Of course.
Meet the Israeli-born art mogul who gave the Tories £500,000 last year… and is set to become party treasurer https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/meet-israeli-born-art-mogul-gave-tories-500000-last-year-set/
Cannot read beyond the paywall there but it seems that Sheleg and Green are flogging ‘art’ to the Chinese.
If you can name an incorrupt, non-money driven political system, I’d be flabbergasted.
I can well believe that might have been the intention. But no way are these right wing chancers in the Lib Dems stealing votes from Labour. They are doing more to split the Tory vote this time round.
Is there ANY real evidence that Jo Swinson’s assistants have attempted to bribe Lib Dem candidates to stand aside for famous defectors like Chukka Umunna in return for a place on the Queen’s Homnours list? If so, where is it?
U.K. police have dropped an investigation into whether Brexit supporting campaign Leave EU breached electoral law, citing insufficient evidence.
Announced quickly after Cressida Dick becomes a dame.
Coincidence?
Brexit is a perfect opportunity for the english to switch to a new language. A period of calm and contemplation would enhance the lives of it’s subjects and would consequently be ignored by the ex-colonies for generations.
Wel yes, but those of us who have said that for years have been treated as if we had committed treason….
Ah yes, the hangings…
curtains?
I am afraid Jo Swinson knows everything about political shenanigans, playing hardball and self-advancement, but sadly knows almost nothing about the subjects she professes she is fit to hold responsibility for.
In this she is little different to a majority of politicians, but it does give the lie to any notion that women are somehow more honorable than men in public life.
Women who gravitate toward power are exactly the same as men who do likewise.
Not to be trusted, expected to use verbal sophistry and utterly hypocritical about who is allowed to let electorates down…..
I guess we can expect the alleged drone attack on Saudi oil refineries to be used as an excuse to bomb Iran.
I’m surprised that nobody on here is talking about it; it’s probably the biggest news story we’ve had from the region since Iraq invaded Kuwait.
They won’t hang around either. This is going to escalate massively and quickly.
Fasten your seat belts.
Who would bomb Iran? Trump? He just fired Bolton, if he wanted to bomb Iran, you’d want to keep him on – he’s a specialist at that sort of thing.
But I do believe there are factions out there, some of whom we may not openly accuse, who would love that idea
Random, if Iran is implicated in this, take my word for it, they won’t be short of people gagging to bomb them. The biggest oil producer in the world just lost 50% of its capacity. Oil prices will surely rise.
They’ve been planning for scenarios like this for decades so that an attack would basically be automated.
If Iran is genuinely behind it, it’s possible there will be an attempt to negotiate. If it’s a false flag, my guess is they’ll bomb first and ask questions later.
Ah Hatuey, why would I take your word for it? There is no logic here.
In retrospect we can see I was right. Iran is being blamed, as predicted, and things are moving slowly in a certain direction.
The war in the middle has started.
Most likely a false flag attack but by who?
The Russians, naturally. When is it not?
Because this is the internet, that is irony
Doug, Israel’s always a good bet. With elections the in a couple of days, a fight with Iran would possibly save Netanyahu’s skin. He’s got a lot of form on this sort of thing. The polls suggest he’s in trouble. I thought his visit to London recently was odd.
The timing is the biggest indicator of a false flag but you can’t ever be certain. The biggest deterrent as far as a western attack on Iran is concerned would be to cause mayhem in the region. Maybe that’s what there expressing here, who knows…
If Saudi Arabia can’t defend itself against Iranian drones then neither can Israel. Nobody can. That’s a game changer.
It is being intimated that the money comes from Lebanon.
Lebanon has refused Saudi Arabia to put an oil pipeline through Lebanon, this choice did not go down well with Saudi Arabia.
Lebanon and Israel are almost at war, again.
It makes you think, is the Middle East about to blow up.
You could see why Saudi Arabia is getting a bit rattled.
Its surrounding hostile countries are ganging up against Saudi.
Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran & Yemen.
The population of Saudi is 33,000,000
but the combined population of the other five hostile states adds up to 171,700,000,
so a surrounding hostile population five times bigger.
Yemen claims it launched the drones at the Saudi oil infrastructures, yet U.S.A. claim is was Iran.
So, money from Lebanon, drones from Iran and activation from Yemen.
With the possibility that the Russians lent some expertise/planning.
https://news.sky.com/story/saudi-arabia-drone-attack-sparks-fire-at-worlds-largest-oil-processing-facility-11809206
UK foreign affairs minister Andrew Murrison said the strike was “totally unacceptable” and that the “Houthis must stop undermining Saudi Arabia’s security by threatening civilian areas and commercial infrastructure”.
The UK foreign office said the UK “condemns the reckless drone attack” and that “threatening civilian areas and commercial infrastructure is dangerous, provocative and completely unacceptable”.
It beggars belief! Where was this guy when the Saudis with our help have been killing civilians through drive and starvation and absence of lifesaving medication? Thousands of Yemeni civilians have been killed and what are the houthis asking?
“Military spokesperson Yahia Sarie said the Houthis used 10 drones in the attacks.
He threatened further attacks on the kingdom, unless Saudi Arabia ends the war.
Mr Sarie said: “The only option for the Saudi government is to stop attacking us.”
The really despicable is how this oil refinery attack gets so much attention while the genocide of the Yemeni nation barely generates any decent coverage and outrage.
Ms Swinson will soon have to get a larger charabanc. Sam Gyimah has joined up.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/sam-gyimah-former-tory-minister-slams-populist-johnson-as-he-joins-lib-dems
What will those Tory East Surreyites have to say?
Gyimah is another Tory who comes from the Goldman Sachs stable.
I deplore identity politics. The notion that Thatcher and May, by being women, of itself, somehow advanced the position of women in society generally. Same goes for Swinson. The reality is that women have suffered the most during austerity. Just look at their policies and then see how progressive they were/are.
There’s the Lib Dems welcoming Philip Lee and, as I type, Sam Gyimah despite their reactionary policies over all the time they’ve been in power. Political opportunism, and as CM says totally unprincipled, stances.
I dream of their political annihilation in a general election. But I suspect the behind the scenes deals and the pusillanimity of Corbyn and the Labour leaders will keep it as just that, a dream.
Not so sure about swinson’s prospects in an election. If the Tories become the Brexit party and Labour’s NEC decide to fight on a Remain platform, it’s hard to see why anyone would want to vote liberal. It’s always been my assumption that this is how it will end. I think labour could win an elections on that basis too.
Another Tory defection to the Lib Dems tonight, Sam Gyimah, a former minister and recent leadership contender no less.
Swinson talks about Labour and Conservatives drifting to the extremes of left and right. Her assessment is wrong on so many levels. Take the Brexit issue, the issue taking up all the political bandwidth, what could be more extreme than revoking without a referendum? i.e., the Lib Dem position. If anything, the Brexit party with their leave with no deal as the preferred option and the Lib Dems’ remain by revoking are like the two extreme bookends and the Tories and Labour like the moderates.
Swinson seems to have ignored, or failed to comprehend, the major problem with their revoking and cancelling Brexit without another referendum idea ; namely, what’s to stop some other party, be it Conservative or the Brexit Party, simply using a general election as a mandate to leave without a deal in the future, by claiming the result of the first (and only) referendum still stands?
Why shouldn’t the result of the first and only (in this generation) referendum stand? Was it a best of three?
Have you by any chance appeared on Craig Murray’s blog before, under another name?
—
[ Mod: FYI, ‘RandomComment’ previously appeared as ‘freddy’, ‘Nick’, ‘Old Nick’, ‘DarkStar’ and a variety of other pseudonyms. However, he isn’t the entity known as formerly known as Habbabkuk. ]
Who are you thinking of SE? 😉
I’m curious. I take this accusation as indication you can’t actually refute any of the points I make. Sometimes, I’m not even trying to make a point, but just ask the question (which you don’t seem able to answer…)
You know very well who I mean.
I genuinely do not know. Tell the audience
It’s going to be a f*cked up world when people accuse you of things they can’t substantiate. But we’re already there.
Don’t worry, that denial will be taken as a confession of guilt 🙂
This is what worries me. How can a denial be taken as a confession of guilt, unless you are an actual fascist?
You’re off the hook! Innocent but don’t do it again.
Well, I’m making the point you make on the importance of respecting the vote, but …I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong or bad with a confirmatory referendum. Heck, when you delete an important file on your PC, you get a prompt asking if you are sure? Brexit is a bit more important than a computer file.
The main point was that a referendum of such significance and high turnout can really only be overturned with another referendum. Simply using a GE result as a mandate to void it, isn’t sensible politics. Unless the party in question achieves over 50% of the vote or gets more than 17.4m votes (both a near impossibility in 2019) then the only way to proceed is via another referendum.
20:47 comment was meant in reply to @RandomComment
It does seem that there are quite opposite extremes in the question of Brexit
in one corner is Donald Trump, Aaron Banks, Nigel Farrage and Richard Tice
in the opposing corner is Jo Swinson.
Now, which side has the charisma/money to see this thing through?
Goose – appreciate the answer, and entirely (and genuinely) get where you are coming from. But what question(s) will be on that second referendum?
I’ve written to my MP (a former minister), setting out the 4 possible options for the referendum and recommended using the supplementary vote system(SV) (as used and understood by millions Londoners to elect Mayors).
No deal has to be one of the options imho. To prevent Brexiters boycotting the poll.
Do you care to share these? Offhand, 75% of your questions seem to be about not leaving or a deal
@RandomComment
I haven’t got the text, but broadly, it just outlined the main problems with another referendum and how they’re solvable . How it’s essential to define what leave means this time – so we don’t end up precisely the same binary result predicament we are now. It envisages four options: Remain and a soft-Brexit(EEA) option and two leave options: May’s WA, or No deal.
You could well get a winner from ‘Remain’ or ‘no deal’ on first preferences. But the options have to be there this time.
That sounds suspiciously reasonable 😉
Measure twice, cut once…
I could agree with that if it was proposed before the first measure.
There’s no basis upon which the Brexit vote can legitimately and democratically ignored. Boris, for all that he’s mental and full of it, actually has the moral high ground.
Of course, if a political party proposes another referendum to take us back into the EU and wins, that would be acceptable. That’s the only way really. I’m not sure we can assume the EU would accommodate that though.
re ‘Randomcomment @18:06
“I end up thinking it is kind of ironic that culturally we lionize children, yet have a system which is distinctly paternal”
“La descendance !” – Godefroy Amaury de Malfête
TBH, I was thinking more of Disney 😉
Swinson is such a silly woman. This is what she’s fit for – visiting a branch of Lush in Bournemouth. Just about her level.
Leader Jo Swinson will introduce a “mystery man” to the conference hall this evening.
14/09/2019 17:34 BST | Updated 1 hour ago
Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson during a visit to a local Lush store, as the Liberal Democrats autumn conference gets underway at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth.
https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/lib-dem-defection_uk_5d7d14ade4b00d690599a8d4/
Rhys Jaggar @ 17:27
What is wrong with … unacceptable disgrace to Jewish values….
Rem acu testigi ! – as Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson* would say.
*A long time ago, while he was still at Eton, his school housemaster Martin Hammond wrote to his father Stanley Johnson expressing his concern that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was irresponsible and paid little attention to facts. The teacher wrote, “He honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.” All these years later he still believes that it is churlish not to regard him as an exception to the rule of law.
From Wee Ginger Dug
The Wee Ginger Dug is always worth a visit
What a Diabolical Shit mess it all is..
Oor Nicola just Tweeted ” There’ll soon be more Tories than Lib Dems in the Lib Dems ”
And aint they Scheming with the Tories in parts of Scotland try to win seats. Democracy is long dead.
That’s actually a clever tweet from sturgeon..
“Victims of racism do not always themselves wish to complain due to societal or personal pressures.”
For the last three months I have been subjected to continuour racial abuse from a Sikh at work, with comments like #Have you ever thought of seeing a shrink ?’ And ]You wouldn’t last long working in a company,]
Several things restrained me from complaining to the university with whom I had the contract@
1/ I have been subjected to 20 years of continual ethnic racism from the Muslim community in which I live, so Asian racism has now become a self-inflicted norm in my life.
2/ the person concerned clearly suffered from serious mental health problems. In fact the Muslim Asian community supporting jihad against their fellow Muslims in Syria, Libya and Afghanistan tells me the entire community are foaming bonkers mad.
3/ the possibility that the racist sneers from the Sikh at work might have been scripted and commissioned by the Asian Mosque coupled with MI5/6.
4/ the instruction of Islam to be patient, which most Asian Muslims refute.
Jo Swinson seems to me to be a walking nutter. How can you be a pro-Israeli Liberal? How can you be a pro-Tory Remainer? How can you be both anti-Corbyn and anti-establishment?
The funny thing about racism is that if you don’t formally object to it, it seems to breed faster than microbes or nuclear reactors. Therefore all the time you don’t object to it, the more the abuser can portray you as the abuser to the very people who in place to monitor it. There is no doubt President Trump is an out and out racist, but who can you complain to when his opponent is a war criminal and builds concrete bunkers for terrorists?
It seems to me that any English person who self-moderates their natural instinct to prejudice makes themselves an easy target for racist abuse.
Giyane, I sympathise with anyone who gets picked on at work. It’s bad enough having to work. I think you’re conflicted though and you hint at that in your last sentence.
It just so happens that I’m a yoda type genius of sorts and am able to give you free advice.
The first thing you need to do is resolve the conflict in your mind. The world is strange; if you’re confused, the world will appear confusing; if you’re angry, the world will piss you off; if you’re scared, the world will seem frightening, etc. The world, then, will reflect whatever you project on to it.
I think you need to project something different. That means you need to resolve the conflict and to do that you need to answer a question. Take your time with this question, it isn’t simple;
Do you want revenge with these guys or do you want peace?
Once you answer that, everything will fall into place.
May the force be with you.
Hatuey
Good advice thanks.
The role of the Muslim in a non Muslim country is to set a good example of our Faith.
Us brits have coexisted for centuries with India so love talking about jihad to provoke the John Simpsos of the BBC to call them fanatics in racist Victorian tones. Aka this week talking about the 2:year anniversary of Mosul being free of Daesh.
They only want to provoke an argument.
And that is only because in their hearts they see my Englishness but they define my Faith by the extent I agree with them, not by my agreement with God who hates people who pick arguments.
It’s simple. Their racism and my patience pours red hot coals I.e Hell-fire onto their heads
well said on this point Giyane –
” Jo Swinson seems to me to be a walking nutter. How can you be a pro-Israeli Liberal? How can you be a pro-Tory Remainer? How can you be both anti-Corbyn and anti-establishment?”
How could they NOT be Anti Trident Too ?
Easy. It’s called being unprincipled and around 70% of Westminster politicians are. Everyone here will have heard the expression ‘lobby fodder’. Swinson’s coalition voting record puts many ultra-loyal Tories to shame.
In politics as in life, it’s far easier to take uncontroversial positions and go with the flow or consensus, however wrong or rotten your conscience is telling you that developing consensus is. It’s why the New Labour careerists so despise Corbyn; he’s spent his political career voting only for what he believes is right – no sleepless nights for him over voting for a war in which an est. 500,000 died, in Iraq.
Swinson is just like any New Labour MP, she just happens to be leading the Lib Dems.
Well Said Goose
But the 500.000 is a wee bit on the conservative side..also added to that number should be Libya, and now Syria. Yemen,. Cos it’s just all the same carnage.. Then there’s the Sanctions – the Irag Infanticide , and today’s Iran / Venezuela, Gaza,
And all the while the MSM…bbC NYT Cnn, ect, try to lie about it all.
Evil.. No other word for it, And who could argue that fact..if we were ALL To See the results of western Propaganda enabled illegal war crimes…Which is One of the reasons for the Torture of Julian, and Chelsea
Trump fires Bolton. Iran attacks Saudi Arabia.
Isn’t it amazing that every time Trump does something in line with the non-interventionist policy on which he camapigned, one of America’s adversaries in the Middle East does something stupid and counter-productive not far from Israel.
Sources That it was Iran Stonky
And if it was I’m Glad to hear it..About fkn Time .
Also, Bibi is either about to go to prison or get re-elected.
Stonky
Why try to let the truth spoil a nice conspiracy theory?
The Houthis have been bombing the Saudis with drones for a while and this has neither been disputed nor has there been any reactions regarding Iran. There is no conspiracy there and no false flags.
b in the Moon of Alabama has written about this. This may also be in part the reason why the Imaratis have withdrawn from this war.
Chuka, Sam and Philip Lee will be making new friends down at Bournemouth.
Chuka is currently being interviewed by Sophy Ridge on Sky. He is standing with the sea in the background to the accompaniment of seagulls’ noise. Watch out for your bare bonce Chuka.
Q Does he wake up and think ‘Which political party do I belong to today?’
Many of the current LibDem M.P.s must wake in the morning thinking I have made a BIG mistake, I have cooked my own goose, once the General Election comes the electorate are going to fry me.
The real question is how can these people be trusted by their new party or by the electorate?
They will chuck money at it, SA, bore us all at the doorstep with multiple amplifications of some aspirational wishful thinking, the BBC will cry foul the moment Labour says something and cover loads of Brexshit party and Tory moments of greatness, and hey presto the gullible will go and have their five seconds of power by making a cross behind a name.
And the supporters of both these parties will be showered with postal voting forms from day one of the campaign, to make sure they can vote in privacy and don’t have to face XR protesters at the polling booth.
Same as it ever was
This time there might be the added ‘sorry I have switched off politics’ mood helping to turn people off elections, so the blue rinse brigades might win it, unless Labour can shine with a few cross party attractants such as PR for us all, by law and at all elections, or a control mechanism that taxes all stale monies in tax havens and uses this tax for their Green deal.
2 trillion in debt thanks to the spendthrift of the Tories, but they did nto spend it on us, they frittered it away on ‘preparing for HS2’ and garden bridges of over the Thames, helping BA and Heathrow to another runway, Fracking for not very much is another past time.
Forces are becoming desperate, they can’t recruit enough cannon fodder, even if they promise apprenticeships and a glorious career as a killer, who might get injured and has to live on handouts from charities after he’s no use to them anymore. Why are so many ex forces people homeless? a disgrace….
The LibDems are becoming a haven for ex-Tory homophobes like Sam Gyimah and Phillip Lee. Should get on well with Tim Farron. The LibDems, a party of homophobes and Likudniks, not very socially liberal. Certain persons will be rotating in their graves.
the lib-dems aka the agnostic party has become a rubbish bin for disappointed voters, lacking any convictions. believing in anything and everything and rolling like tumbleweed through politics. flattered and biddable, legs open for a walk on part with real politicians.
Labour and LibDems are languishing in the polls.
The Conservatives under Boris Johnson have opened up a twelve point lead.
So, if you were to add the points of U.K.I.P. + Brexit and Tory
you get just over 50%
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/tories-extend-poll-lead-to-12-despite-week-of-political-chaos
so there is no way the LibDems are important, except in their own self-image
Boris also has the highest approval rating of any leader ( at the moment)
National poll numbers are practically useless. The UK is not a homogeneous entity. YouGov split weighted data into five, geographical sub-samples, these are more informative.
Johnson’s battlegrounds are South of England (excluding London), Midlands and Wales and North of England (London and Scotland are largely known quantities and circa a 22 seat loss for the Tories). Trends from the last few YouGov polls show the Brexit Party vote firming up at the expense of the Tories (particularly in the SoE and M&W (the BP vote in the NoE has been consistently stronger than the Tories). In combination with the Brexit Party the Tories have a substantial advantage in all three battlegrounds. Farage’ statement that he doesn’t want a seat in Government (if you believe it) leaves the way open to some form of pact which would more than offset Tory losses in London, Scotland and Wales.
Yougov was cofounded by Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi – the man who tried to claim £4,000 of the taxpayer for keeping his horses warm in winter whilst homeless people froze to death on the streets.
I’m not saying yougov are not to be trusted but when it comes to the MSM’s most widely quoted pollsters it’s worth being aware of.
@Viv – “the BP vote in the NoE has been consistently stronger than the Tories”
In what sense?
EU elections, May 2019:
Britain: BXP 31%; Tories 9%; turnout 37%
NE England: BXP 39%; Tories 7%; turnout 33% <- nearly six times the Tory vote!
NW England: BXP 31%, Tories 8%; turnout 33%
For the NoE as a whole, Yougov polling is giving GE intention as Tories 29%, BXP 18% . (Even 12% could wallop Labour to kingdom come.)
My miswording. Should of said resilient.
The Tory faithful will have been lapping up Agent Cameron’s scribblings in the Times this morning. (£2.90/copy!) I read a bit of his stuff in a caff.
He goes large on Euan, his son who died. So much humanity in his heart and in Sam’s, his adored wife. No humanity shown however for the little ones with brown skin that he sent to their deaths in horrific style.
He is, was and continues to be completely odious.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/david-camerons-fury-at-the-liars-of-leave-5zk3tm3p9 paywall
You can read two Times articles for free each week if you give Mr Murdoch your details.
PS The editor of the S Times is Martin Ivens who is married to Anne McElvoy who scribbles for Gideon in the Evening Standard. Keeping it in the (Tory) family!
A twitter thread thereon. https://twitter.com/search?q=cameron%20sunday%20times&src=typd
“He goes large on Euan, his son who died.”
Just a small point of detail, Euan is Blair’s son. Cameron’s deceased son was named Ivan.
Beg your pardon, I should have gone to Specsavers.
___
I meant to add that there was a lot of hypocrisy on the ‘wonderful staff’ in our ‘amazing NHS’. No mention of his putting through the Health and Social Care Act 2012 allowing privatisation and adding more precariousness to it’s stability.
Try Yankeeland Cameron.
A new pair of specs won’t prevent you from making a fool of yourself in your need to make a tenuous political attack.
Haha – I am listening to Jo Swinson on the radio defend the policy of revoking Brexit without a referendum. “It’s what we genuinely think,” she is insisting.
Sure, love. “I’m not lying to you”. It’s what you “genuinely think”, is it? You must be Honest Jo.
The Liberal Democrats are raring to go, to play their traditional role of putting a Tory government in office. Who gives a monkey’s what the Liberal Democrats promise to do if they win a majority of seats anyway? The whole point here is to lose votes for Labour, either to themselves or to the far right.
What kind of party would adopt such a toxic, anti-democratic policy? Any grassroots canvassers are likely to get a well deserved slap. Oh, that’s right, they don’t have any grassroots. Problem solved.
The LD conference has voted to cancel Brexit IF there is an election and they win it, ie revoke Article 50
A big IF but forever the optimists.
Lib Dems pledge to cancel Brexit if they win general election
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49706643
37 mins ago
Chuka took a turn at the podium.
‘In his first speech at conference as a Lib Dem MP, Chuka Umunna – who left Labour over its Brexit stance – said it would give the party a “clear, unequivocal position”. He said: “This [policy] will stop this national embarrassment and enable us to focus on the things that really matter.”
What a Welsh Slimeball
Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn are “quite poisonous” in the way they manage their parties,
the Welsh Liberal Democrat leader has said.
Jane Dodds said that was why so many M.P.s had defected to the Lib Dems
“because they want to be part of an open and tolerant party”.
The Welsh M.P. was addressing her party’s conference in Bournemouth.
Delegates there voted to scrap Brexit if they win an early general election.
Maybe they should change their name to LibUNDems?
And now, to add to it all, they have made it policy to revoke Article 50 without further reference to the electorate who voted to come out of the EU. Obviously they hope that their base vote will come out for them and every single ‘remain’ vote also. Although, obviously, they are NOT going to win a majority at the GE it DOES mean that negotiations for what is, at the moment at any rate, the opposition grouping will be yet more tense.
Swinson has already refused to work with Corbyn to get the Tories out (but then she DID serve with the Tory government, didn’t she?) which was simply missing an open goal as far as I’m concerned (and probably many LibDem members too) This will make further negotiations nigh on impossible. The Labour Party has MUCH to lose if they agree, prior to a GE, to overturn the referendum. Swinson looks like she is determined to put a spanner in the works of any solution which would be palatable to any of the national parties and, given their position on this they MIGHT win over disaffected Tories AND Labour, people who couldn’t stomach voting Labour might vote for them, they could pick up marginal and increase their footprint in the Commons. Not that it would help resolve the situation and, as they are a unionist party, it still leaves Scotland held in a headlock by a suicidal partner whatever happens. Neither Labour nor the LibDems are TRULY interested in democracy or their own supporters, Brexit is now ONLY going to be politicised and we will be stuck in this endless loop for years to come, unable to escape.
Maybe if the SNP promised to vote, definitively with ANY of these groups to get something done they MIGHT release us? Beginning to feel like a hostage situation…
Gary,
if you could get all the partys who want Remain to vote as a block in the forthcoming General Election,
the SNP +Labour+LibDem+Changlings+P.C.+Green = 48%
if you add UKIP+Brexit+Conservative = 51%
So very, very close to how the country voted at the Referendum.
BBC Radio 4 are promoting Umunna’s speech to the LDs today saying that he will be making a strong attack on Jeremy Corbyn. Of course he will. He’s a snake.
Q Which political party will he join next?
He appears at 11am on Ch 232. Given only 20 minutes. Lunch is scheduled at 11.20!
pp 50-51 https://www.libdems.org.uk/autumn-19-agenda
Swinson is a drooling cretin (or double agent), she confirms that the LibDems will absolutely not work with Labour in the next GE but are open to working with other “Remain” parties. Given that she won’t countenance working with the SNP and the Greens won’t make much difference (although LibDem support would help them hold onto Skidrow-on-sea), that leaves Plaid Cymru. Let’s do the arithmetic on that; there are 6 Welsh Tory MPs and Guto Bebb (four letters in his surname and three of those are b, WTF), the LibDems will secretly support John Lamont and David Mundell in the South of Scotland so that’s a net gain for a notional Remain pact of five seats in a 650 seat parliament. What a fecking genius.
Vivian,
I think Jo Swinson is expecting to hoover up the Changelings, now apparently to be known as The Independent Group for Change.
There are five left. Anna Soubry, Joan Ryan, Chris Leslie, Mike Gapes, Ann Coffey,
none of them are Spring Chickens, I guess they are winding down for twilight.
Lib Dems “would not prop up Johnson or Corbyn government”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49717388
Earlier today on T.V. they had that horrible shyster Ed Davy, deputy leaders of the Liberal Democrats,
he was saying they are no longer in the business of democracy, all they intend to do is become the next government of the U.K.
and roll in the filthy money.
Is there no depths these disgusting LibDems will not sink to?
Galen Milne was sacked as a candidate for Jo Swinson’s party over the horrific Facebook comment.
Mr. Milne called for Mr Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, Michael Gove and David Davis to be ‘hung, drawn and quartered, with each quarter being sent to the 4 corners of the United Kingdom to be burned at the stake’.
https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/person/6602/galen-milne
Liberal Democrats believe in an open, tolerant, and a united society. We want to stop another divisive referendum and we will oppose the Tories hard Brexit.
More by accident than design, but Labour (if Corbyn gets his way) have ended up with a General Election message (if a GE is held) that could result in a landslide win, by offering a second referendum with a choice between Remain and Soft-Brexit.
This is because most ardent Remainers will vote Labour to secure the referendum and this will kill the LD vote after they have cast themselves as the Remain Party. I mean if you are ardent Remain why would you vote for LD when its only Labour (not Conservatives) who will deliver the referendum needed to reverse the decision.
This probably explains why the Lib Dems have gone for revoke rather than another referendum, to put distance between them and Labour, but its an approach designed to get the Remain vote (wont) but will lose the liberal vote.
However another irony would be although Corbyn favours a Soft-Brexit a big Labour win could result in a majority for Remain.
And a landslide win because I think most Leavers would be content with a Soft-Brexit, which could have been passed early and are only in favour of No Deal in exasperation at the failure to deliver Leave.