I have had moments in the last few days which led me to feel pretty hopeless. Perhaps the worst was in the ITV debate when Corbyn was roundly jeered by a substantial section of the audience for stating that climate change impacted hardest on the poorest people in the poorest countries. That encapsulated for me the current far right political climate in England, dominated by boorish, selfish stupidity. I do not come from a left wing political background and I have never subscribed to the romanticisation of “the people”. Years living in the UKIP heartland of Ramsgate made me realise that “the people” en masse can be very unpleasant and racist indeed. I have always for that reason eschewed direct democracy and subscribed to a very Burkean view. That however falls down when, as now, you have a political class who are becoming even more base and vicious than the most unpleasant mob. But the growl of that studio audience, infuriated that Corbyn cared about the foreign poor, is a warning klaxon of the state of English society.
A close second despair-inducing moment was Jo Swinson’s interview following the debate when, asked if she would press the nuclear button, she replied without a millisecond of hesitation: “yes”. As I reported last week, when asked at the Lib Dem campaign launch why she would not put Corbyn into Downing St in any circumstances, she had instantly replied that he would not be prepared to instruct submarine commanders to fire nuclear weapons.
The woman is deranged.
I come from a Liberal tradition. Probably the two books which most influence my thinking are On Liberty by John Stuart Mill and Imperialism, A Study by J A Hobson. The line of British liberal thinking that comes down through writers including Hazlitt, Shelley, Byron, Carlyle, Mill, Hobson, Russell and Keynes is a tradition which looks set to disappear from British political thought. That makes me horribly sad. One thing I am sure of is that Swinson has read none of them. That the Lib Dems had moved economically so far to the right was already worrying me. Their completely illiberal opposition to Scottish Independence upset me still further. But that the party to which I belonged for 30 years and which was once led by my friend, the gentle and wise Charlie Kennedy, could now be led by an arm whirling, narcissistic, female version of Dr Strangelove, is beyond my wildest nightmares.
Let me go back to that ITV Debate. It was enormously dispiriting that of a 50 minute debate, 25 minutes were devoted to the subject of Brexit, compared to just one minute on the question of climate change. The Brexit discussion was completely unenlightening, with Johnson booming out “Get Brexit Done” at every opportunity, and even when there was no rational opportunity after the discussion had finally been moved on to other subjects.
I thought Jeremy was slightly under par. There was one point where I think he made a definite mistake. When Johnson claimed the last Labour government bankrupted the country’s finances, Corbyn failed to come back and say that it was the bankers who bankrupted the country’s finances. He could have gone on to add that banking deregulation had been the cause of a decade of global misery and Boris Johnson’s plans for Singapore on Thames would be banking deregulation on steroids.
It is not the first time this election that Labour have failed to point out it was the bankers who crashed the economy. I am not sure why. It may be a desire to seem City-friendly. Corbyn may be held back because, like me, he believes Brown was completely wrong to bail out the bankers with taxpayers’ money, and Corbyn therefore thinks it best to avoid the whole topic for the sake of party unity. Either way, to let Johnson say that Labour spending ruined the economy is to miss an open goal – the bankers are still massively unpopular.
The other point is one where Jeremy actually annoyed me. I cannot tell you how infuriating it was, as a Scot, to see Johnson repeatedly stating that Scotland would not be allowed an Independence referendum, and Corbyn making no effort at all to stand up for the Scottish right of self-determination. Given SNP exclusion from the debate, it was demeaning to see our masters discussing our future with no pretence of giving a hearing to the Scottish point of view.
Corbyn has to tackle this. The Johnson “Labour will give you two referendums” attack line is not being sufficiently countered. For Corbyn to ask Johnson whether he accepts that the Scottish people have the right of self-determination would be a killer question, and Jeremy could ask it quietly and effectively. A large majority of English people are actually perfectly happy for Scotland to have an Independence referendum.
Corbyn has tied himself in knots to accommodate the bitter cabal of Blairites and Orangemen that constitute the majority of the rump Scottish Labour Party, while its membership and voters have defected en masse to the SNP. 40% of the remaining Labour voters support Independence anyway. Rather than put himself in a false position for the sake of hopeless colleagues who have crashed Scottish Labour from domination to 12% of the vote, Corbyn should state his support for the right of the Scottish people to decide – something which I have no doubt he personally believes in, deeply.
The good news is that Johnson made an ass of himself in the debate, constantly repeating “Get Brexit Done”, and Corbyn’s insistence on discussing more important issues than Brexit cut through. You Gov’s verdict of a 51 to 49 victory for Johnson was very dubious indeed. But even that would be a major advance for Corbyn given the constant barrage of unfair media demonisation to which he has been subjected in the last five years. Almost seven million people watched the event live, a significant audience. Parity with that audience is a very good start for Labour. I suspect it really went better than that. YouGove have a long and dishonourable history as Tory push pollsters.
There are similarities here to the 2017 election. The chance for both Corbyn and Sturgeon to be seen in election coverage directly by viewers, each arguing their own case, will improve the standing of both with the electors, compared to the unmitigated vilification of normal media. (Sturgeon is being unfairly excluded from key debates but her Dundee speech today was extensively covered).
The Tory campaign of closed workplace addresses, artificial set-up encounters and a constant simple soundbite slogan is repeating the formula that failed so spectacularly in 2017. “Get Brexit Done” is going to annoy voters as much as “Strong and Stable” did, especially if Johnson continues to deploy it whatever the question asked.
I strongly expect we will see the first signs of the opinion polls starting to tighten shortly. I am half-English myself and have no desire to see Johnson inflicted on the population of Newcastle or Liverpool. But I confess I am also comfortable in the certainty that should Johnson win the election, it will precipitate Scottish Independence very soon. Nobody should despair yet. But it is certainly more comfortable to watch this from Edinburgh than from Manchester.
——————————————
Unlike our adversaries including the Integrity Initiative, the 77th Brigade, Bellingcat, the Atlantic Council and hundreds of other warmongering propaganda operations, this blog has no source of state, corporate or institutional finance whatsoever. It runs entirely on voluntary subscriptions from its readers – many of whom do not necessarily agree with the every article, but welcome the alternative voice, insider information and debate.
Subscriptions to keep this blog going are gratefully received.
Choose subscription amount from dropdown box:
Alternatively:
Account name
MURRAY CJ
Account number 3 2 1 5 0 9 6 2
Sort code 6 0 – 4 0 – 0 5
IBAN GB98NWBK60400532150962
BIC NWBKGB2L
Bank address Natwest, PO Box 414, 38 Strand, London, WC2H 5JB
Subscriptions are still preferred to donations as I can’t run the blog without some certainty of future income, but I understand why some people prefer not to commit to that.
Bedtime cricket on radio a bit of a drudge so here is some doodling.
Polls polls polls polls …wonderful BALLS.
(To the tune of Spam!)
THE TORY LEAD IS LESS THAN 3%
I spent a lot of time last election blowing major holes in their balls polls, especially the commissioned ones by opinium for the Obsessive Groaniad.
I called it pretty correctly. By looking at their RAW data. And I say the current tory lead is exactly what it was at the end of 2017 . If you believe their raw data.
This time I hadn’t bothered up till now. Drilling down into data is the key. Even as the representation of the data has changed… in my opinion they have manipulated raw data!
The Obsessives splash yesterday that claims a headline of
‘Conservatives open up 19-point lead with 47% share of the vote’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/23/tories-renewed-poll-boost-brexit-party-candidates-pull-out-opinium-observer
Now understand that there is a catch up period by Labour as the election campaign proceeds and fair coverage in the media allows that. Last time that ended with the overall lead of 800,000 votes over the whole 650 seats by the tories.
‘Despite a drop in the number of seats, the Conservatives actually saw a rise in vote share (up 5.5% points to 42.4%). Labour’s vote share rose at an even greater rate (up 9.5% points) and now sits at 40.0%.’
https://data.london.gov.uk/blog/the-2017-general-election-the-numbers-behind-the-result/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES WAS 2.4%.
Remember that percentage – 2.4%.
Now lets drill down into the Opinium poll.
1. They state ‘Source: Opinium poll: 2,003 UK adults surveyed from 20 to 22 November 2019’ – that is 3 days over which the two thousand and three people were interviewed. Things were happening over these 3 days and doesn’t include the Friday debate.
2. In their new presentation of the data – https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/VI-20-11-19-website.xlsx There are now multiple data sheets. The relevant sheet is 5a. It asks what the responders voted in 2017, of the number that are used to derive the headline ‘result’.
3. The actual number of responses used is a grand total of 1,368 NOT 2,003!
4. Off these 46% voted Tory and 36% Labour in 2017 – a difference of 10% not the 2.4% of the actual result remember!
5. The actual 2017 Tory share was 42.4% not 46% of the responders. The actual Labour share was 40% not 36% of the responders.
So the Tory share of responders is over represented by 7.6% (4)
So the magic trick is pulled!
I put all that up there not expecting most to follow it but for rigorousness in my conclusion- based only on the 1368 responses used in the raw data before they ‘weight’ it.
The raw data adjusted for the 7.6% starting variance would give the Tories a current lead (to the 3 day period ending 22/11) of just 2.4%! Remember that number! The end point of the last election.
At this stage and not including the undecideds of some 16% from sheet 3 of their workbook. How they divide will of course determine the final result but they are currently undecided! Not ALL of them will vote tory. And current intentions may also. change.
Anyone want to analyse the numbers i am happy to be corrected.
I am sticking to my prediction of a landslide based on how the numbers improved through the campaign last time.
Anyway the 19% current headline lead is BALLS! The only poll that counts is on 12th December.
Do we really need to wonder why such magical thinking is going on in the Obsessive Groaniad?
I had a look at this briefly earlier. Over-representing Tory voters by 7.6% couldn’t possibly explain a 19% lead.
I think there’s lag in the system and, as you point out, the survey was conducted before the Friday night QT leadership program. Also, the Labour manifesto has just been released and I think it represents a sea change in terms of the focus and scope of the politics of the campaign.
It takes time for these things to filter down but it’s noteworthy that the Tories are frightened that people start talking about bread and butter issues, rather than Brexit, as per Labour’s domestic agenda.
Anyway, I think your conclusion is more or less good. This will be a lot closer than is being suggested. I thought opinium was the Observer’s platform but I don’t suppose it matters since the guardian is equally biased and nobody really cares what any of them say…
I think it’s easier than that. I think they make it up. Too many people have been savaged by the Tories or have witnessed Tory savagery, while too few gained from it. They do not have the numbers but no poll will tell us that.
How can anybody know how many people they ask and what answers they gave and how those answers are manipulated? They lie because they don’t have to account for their lying. They’re meant to shape opinion not record it, and if enough mugs are influenced by them it becomes an accepted form of election rigging. How else can they say the people prefer that a-hole Johnson? There is none.
Yes Michael, that’s true but history suggests it’s tories who lie most because they are ashamed to vote Tory.
They assign the ‘haven’t decided yet’ numbers mostly to the tories.
It was balls last time it us balls now- the aim is to demoraluse Labour a tivists and would be voters so they don’t bother voting or changing their vote to Labour.
It is only going to get dirtier – much dirtier than any election ever in our lifetime.
This is existential for the Tories and Neolibs congame.
@Dungroanin – Thanks for this. Good work!
For the position “now”, or rather on 20-22 Nov, using your assumptions to “correct” the Opinium headline figure I get a Tory poll lead of 11-12%, which is in line with the headline figures for 19-21, 20-21, 20-22 and 21-22 (*2) Nov from BMG, Savanta ComRes, Panelbase, YouGov, and DeltaPoll: 13%, 10%, 10%, 12%, 13%, mean 11.6%.
46 → 47: correct to 42.4 → x;
36 → 28: correct to 40.0 → y.
Multiplicative: x = 42.4/46 * 47 = 43.3 ; y = 40.0/36 * 28 = 31.1 ; lead = 12.2.
Additive: x = 42.4 + (47-46) = 43.4; y = 40.0 + (36-28) = 32 ; lead = 11.4.
Where does your 2.4% come from? Are you then looking at what happened in the last 20 days in 2017?
In 2017, T-20 was 19 May. Looking at polls with collection dates 12-15 to 17-18 May (five polls), the headline figures were 14%, 15%, 13%, 13%, 12%, mean 13.4%.
So we have a Tory poll lead now that is 1.8% smaller than this far out in 2017. (This is using the 11.6% figure). If we just use additive because it’s late at night and extrapolate, this gives a Tory lead of 0.7% on 12 Dec, which on UNS (0.9% swing Tory to Labour) loses the Tories 14 seats , giving them 303, still most seats but a “majority” of minus 44.
N_,
The 2.4% was the actual end point result of the 2017 election.
My post was late night, using a phone and i stated abruptly that it was currently 2.4%.
Having looked again this morning my personal opinion of that thin Opinium data scrape is :
Tories had a lead (to the 3 day period ending 22/11) of between 4.4% and 5.4%.
With undecideds of some 16%.
I have posted more fully on Off-G.
I haven’t yet seen any reports on the friday debate.
Here’s the problem with the opinium poll;
“*In this latest polling Opinium have accounted for the release of nominations in each seat, so that respondents now only see the parties that are standing in their seat when answering who they will vote for.”
It makes sense to only show respondents parties that are available in their seat so far as predicting the outcome of that particularly seat is concerned. But it would skew results in favour of the Tories to do that or take the results from doing that to form a general forecast for the UK as a whole.
Bearing in mind that the above methodology was only introduced to account for the decision by the Brexit party not to sit in Tory-held seats. This is important as it means you are taking results that are positive for the Tories in Tory-held seats and transposing them more widely as trends in society as a whole.
You can’t do that.
What collection of seats are they extrapolating from?
The ones where the Brexit party have pulled out. Up until the Brexit party announced that they included the Brexit party in polling.
They don’t publicise that and it is only 1600 across the whole country(?) based on where the self selected responders – remember that – claim to live.
No, dungroanin, they were quite proud for the adjustment that took out the Brexit option in seats they have decided not to contest. The impact of that is a perceptible boost for the Tory votes in those seats but you can’t assume that surge is nationwide.
#PollGate
These opinion polls are surely an example of the ‘big lie’ – tell the public Johnson is miles ahead to demoralise opposition activists and try to create a bandwagon effect in conjunction with vox pops in the media.
The dangers with this strategy are that a) (as is happening) many no longer believe the opinion polls at all or give then little credence and b) they have the opposite effect, galvanising the opposition to unite and coordinate, while deterring floating voters who would not want a large Tory majority from turning out
Now, I don’t know who will win the most seats in this election but what I can’t get past are these two issues – that for Johnson/the Tories to win big he would have to be much more popular than May in 2017 and/or Corbyn/Labour would have to be less popular. After two years of dither and with Johnson’s personal foibles, could that really be the case?
That could well be the case Tom, to answer your last question. As you say, though, the polls are so untrustworthy and unreliable that we don’t have a clue what’s going on.
As for the polls actually affecting outcomes, I believe several countries and especially France have tight restrictions on the publication of polls in the run up to elections for that reason.
The demoralising influence is the most likely of the two you consider. I can only think of one example that had the opposite effect and resulted in people flocking to thwart and vote against the pollsters’ predicted winner… from memory in US in the 1950s.
It is generally accepted that many people evaluate parties more positively if their chances of victory are considered good. It’s also accepted that polls, certainly at the constituency level, lead to more tactical voting — if you know voting Green will be pointless, you would naturally consider another party, for eg… you get the idea.
Donald Tяump will be in Britain from 2 to 4 December. He’ll attend a NATO summit and a reception with the monarch at Buckingham Palace. Will Prince Andrew attend? How about Boris Johnson? Here’s what happened last time Tяump came: he demanded the NHS had to be “on the table” in trade talks between Britain and the US.
Labour can play that again and again on Facebook and they will probably have something even filthier-seeming and up-to-the-minute to add to it too. And the Tory scum still think they understand the North of England? LOL. They are understimating people’s intelligence. They can show half a dozen films of Iranians arriving on dinghies, but do voters really want their parents to have to sell their houses to pay for hip operations? In England which is where the vast majority of seats are, and where most of the uncertainty is, there are two parties in this election. The Tory voteshare is likely to be lower than the 42.4% they scored in 2017. They’re playing this on “strong and stable” and “Brexit” again. The difference is that probably one of the first words that come to mind when many people think of Boris Johnson is “liar”. But wait…he’s going to “get Brexit done”. Funny, because according to polls and for a long time a majority have considered the 2016 referendum result to be a mistake. Johnson’s personal rating is falling too, which is probably why the reason he crapped his pants at the thought of appearing in another one-on-one TV debate with Jeremy Corbyn.
Tory manifesto is being brought forward, to Sunday, today.
This is quite unusual, they may be a little rattled.
One of the themes will be no increase in VAT, no increase in Income Tax, no increase in National Insurance and old people keep all their perks.
Also, Boris is making clear that in less than two weeks, after the election results are in, if he wins a majority, he will re-introduce his Brexit Bill to the House of Commons, where he expects it to pass, he then declares that we will have Brexited before February 2020.
So, essentially Boris is mostly making this election about Get Brexit Done, with a side dish of Jeremy Corbyn will tax you a lot more than we will.
I bet bobo’s crapping his pants at getting anymore endorsements by Trump.
Which will push more to vote Labour including increasing numbers of tories!
I bet Donald knows it and will be expecting some adventurous hack to ask him to support Johnson and diss Corbyn as in foreign election meddling, like Pompeo promised to have been putting up a gauntlet against Corbyn – how’s that campaign going sir?
Trump was set up. He didn’t understand the question about ‘health trade’ and May volunteered the question meant the NHS and he said “everything will be on the table”, but once he realised his mistake/trap he said it didn’t include NHS. Also under EU rules the NHS is deemed a nationalised ‘nationalist’ impediment to the single market and TTIP was a near miss!
The US ambassador said days before that IT WAS PART OF ANY DEAL.
LOOK IT UP.
But Trump says it isn’t.
BBC now editing film to disguise members of the public laughing at the PM.
Isn’t it time influential people in the UK (besides Craig Murray) acknowledged the serious problems with the BBC?
https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1198261302898176000
U Watt
Every Independence Supporter KNOWS OF bbC Bias..That’s the reason Thousands of us Shout ” BBC , Where’s Your Cameras ” on our All Under One Banner Marches.. The numbers on these Marcher Huge .. I was at George Square Glasgow a couple of weeks ago to hear ‘ Oor Nicola ‘ 20,000 were there..the streets had to be closed. to accommodate such huge crowd..
It’s very well Documented – As this Blogs host Points out in this Documentary –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXQYuLUAbyw
I have not seen you here before – So –
Isn’t it time *influential people* in the UK (besides Craig Murray) acknowledged the serious problems with the BBC?
U Watt
Trolling or taking the P ?
Neither. I refer only to the uniform silence of influential public figures on the BBC’s anti Corbyn bias For some reason that angers you.
U watt, you couldn’t be more wrong. Murray has put a lot of effort into exposing bbc bias. You should do your homework before launching attacks on people.
I quite clearly exempted Craig Murray. Who am I attacking?
Apologies, uwatt, I take that back… less speed more haste eh, or is it the other way around?
No problem, and you’re right Craig Murray is a rare courageous voice of truth when it comes to the BBC and much else. Never afraid to tell it as it is.
good work on the raw data, back to the nudges – so, did Elisabeth Maxwell’s (yes, that family) spooky data co Palantir work with the British defense and intelligence contractor SCL Group (which formed Cambridge Analytica) or not, and what is their psycographic product called in this election ?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/us/cambridge-analytica-palantir.html
and not forgetting Auntie’s
“How political polling shapes public opinion 2015”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31504146
I guess there must be an under the counter pact between the Tories and Brexit party.
Government ministers are still declaring No Deal is still on the table.
Michael, there is a far simpler explanation which is consistent with the “Tory” mode of operation.
They are “declaring No Deal is still on the table” as a cynical trick to get the votes of those who might otherwise vote Brexit Party.
Then, when they have won the elction, it will turn out that either:
1. No Deal is unfortunately off the table (due of course to factors beyond their control); or
2. They will somehow fudge something they call “No Deal”, but which is in fact a deal – like Boris Johnson’s last proposal.
1. No Deal is unfortunately off the table
Wrong.
if boris only ends up with the slimest of majority, say plus 2, it may still be difficult to get enough people in the House of Parliament to vote his poxy deal through, in which case he has already claimed we are out by February, thus reverting to No Deal.
The withdrawal agreement I’d say is more or less a done deal if he has any majority. I’m sure there’s scope for dragging it out but it has effectively been ratified.
The real potential for no deal will become clear when the trade talks get underway. As I understand it, these must be concluded in one year or it’s No Deal 2.0.
I’m still puzzled as to how Boris got his withdrawal deal through Parliament. I think everybody was just exhausted by that stage and stopped caring but it’s puzzling when you consider the energy and effort they put into thwarting it one week then how they just seemed to roll over the next.
Don’t suppose it matters now.
“if boris only ends up with the slimest of majority, ”
I read that first as “the slimiest of majorities” Yup, that’s the Tories to a T.
You speak of open goals and that is why I do not want Corbyn to promise a second Scottish Independence referendum – although I agree, he is probably in favour of one. If he promised such a thing the press would go to town on it, claiming he is unpatriotic and appealing to the type of person who jeers when someone expresses concern for the foreign poor.
I do so badly want to see the Tories kicked out of power, and what remains of this country desperately needs reinvestment in its infrastructure. For this reason I hope it isn’t brought up too much, despite supporting a second referendum myself. Corbyn is both our best chance at diminishing Tory power and a glimmer of hope of much needed change.
As for the prick who jeered at Corbyn during the debate. I sort of suspect he was trying to get others to join in, like the solitary person who claps very loudly. I think a lot of the anti-Corbyn jeers came only after people laughed at Johnson and the person is so full of racism he assumed the rest of the audience were too.
Hmmmmmm the usual junk excuses. He wasn’t worried about open goals when he said consumers and workers would be represented on every board, or when he said corporation tax would be hiked up, or when he committed to renewing trident (a solid vote loser btw).
But we will see what happens. A hard right Tory government with a majority would be a good thing for Scotland anyway.
Well if there’s a Tory majority I’d probably be joining you in Scotland and vigorously campaigning for independence (assuming you’re in Scotland). I don’t think a Labour majority would be bad for Scotland however. The promise to reinvest is a promise for the whole of the UK and I believe Corbyn will allow another referendum. I think first he will try to reinvest though.
I don’t think the corporation tax hike is an open goal. Many people want an end to tax dodging from the biggest corporations and the hike is not as high as many other countries nor as high as it was when Thatcher was in power. I also don’t believe the trident renewal is a vote loser. If it loses votes the only party strictly anti-nuclear would be the Greens, so either people are abstaining or voting Green.
They will always think of Jeremy Corbyn as “unpatriotic” because he does not live by: “My mother drunk or sober; my country right or wrong.” He believes in international law as he believes in democracy and he is more than capable of seeing that the West is often in breach of it. Moreover he thinks we should not be. His original reaction to the Skripal charade was that we should wait for the evidence. Unthinkable, since the evidence is all sham and clearly reveals the West’s case as a load of BS. Anyway, that is quite enough to explain the unremitting hatred of the military, the secret services and their bought and paid for mouthpiece, the Guardian, for him.
We think he’s unpatriotic because he supported the IRA
Who’s we?
“he supported the IRA”
Manifestly untrue.
https://mobile.twitter.com/toryfibs/status/1194724142253256704
Btw Tory patriotism consists of allowing Washington to dictate our foreign policy and flogging our public utilities and infrastructure to overseas interests.
The Tory GE manifesto was released today and I’m not saying the Tories are predictable or anything and I’m not braggiong but I did say here about three days ago to watch out for two phrases and………lo and behold!
“The manifesto – entitled Get Brexit Done, Unleash Britain’s Potential”
What no Dither & Delay?
No Do or Die?
No Dom & Dumber?
They are as dead as their HARD brexit and this is a last gasp of that corpse.
No surprise there then, though I thought the Tories might have added, Strong and Stable, and I’d Rather be Dead in a Ditch, than blah blah blah.
I’ve read that Johnsons deal with the EU is way worse than Mays deal, and hers was a stinker by all accounts.
A link to the 64 page offering. Promises. Promises!
The manifesto – A manifesto is a published declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government. A manifesto usually accepts a previously published opinion or public consensus or promotes a new idea with prescriptive notions for carrying out changes the author believes should be made. It often is political or artistic in nature, but may present an individual’s life stance. Manifestos relating to religious belief are generally referred to as creeds.
https://vote.conservatives.com/our-plan
plus a costings document.
As the disgraceful state broadcaster the BBC edits the cheers and jeers out of Boris Johnson’s first poser by the public.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Tingaling007/status/1198275000073117697
One of the lastest GE polls hints at there once again, being more Panda’s in Scotland than Labour MP’s. Both of these parties have no real future in Scotland, both cannot be trusted to govern in Scotland.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18056971.general-election-new-poll-predicts-labour-wipeout-snp-gains/
In the event that Labour tanks in this election (as seems probable) and Corbyn resigns (as he most likely would) who will be the new Labour leader? It’s likely to be a Blairite remainer neocon and I’d go for either Benn or Starmer, ie Milliband Mk II. Labour membership will fall, the party will have to rely on corporate donors again and the Corbyn years will seem like a distant dream.
Ditch, ditch, ditch DITCH … just add water.
Yeah if Corbyn loses the neoliberals in the Labour party and the media (pro-Johnson) will call for his head. I’d say if Corbyn loses Labour will be sidelined for another decade, by then the damage will be done.
On the media Maajid Nawaz extolling the virtues of Boris Johnson on LBC a few minutes ago. The more I listen to Narwaz (and its hard listening I might add) the more I think Narwaz is a state actor.
You think!!
( in a fake american Friends type comical way?)
He actually said it immediately when bobo stopped speaking before taking ‘questions’. All totally scripted.
See Craig’s original posts on Quilliam. They (inc that shill Nawaz) tried to shut Craig down. Have you seen him on Sky’s The Pledge? The word is voluble. He’s full of it.
There are not enough Blairite Labour members anymore to elect a Blairite leader. Even if you and every Blairite political commentator and opinion writer in the country became a Labour member, you would simply not have enough numbers to elect Hillary Benn.
Who then?
Wait until PM Corbyn stands down and take a pick from a great bunch of candidates.
Ditch ditch ditch ditch …. just add water!
If Corbyn became PM it’s unlikely he’d stand down. The membership can only choose from a shortlist drawn up by the PLP. My guess is it’ll be Benn or Starmer.
Angela the Eagle?
In the event that the climate will flip and there is no return, irretrievably, it will not matter whether the economy is in debt, nor who resigns after a few self-serving, well-paid stooges, too simple to believe in lies, innuendo and shit-rakers who peddle pre-election outcomes: it will end in heartache.
The heartache will be violent and start in Tory thiefdoms, a little more serious than Labour losing membership due to a vendetta against Corbyn.
End of the world is nigh … don’t PANIC!
Radio news claiming that if Boris Johnson wins the GE the UK will be out of the EU come the 31st of January.
The only comfort the Left can take from a Johnson victory.
So there we have it – a room mostly occupied by current mp’s and odds and sods outnumbered by the ‘colleagues in the media’!
Thanks Laura, thanks Robert, thanks Sky, Telegraph & Mail.. and err thanks Rowena for making me waffle and that local kid who I promised a quick spaff!
The room cleared in 5 mins.
LBC lickspittle announces ‘bobo has won it’
They think it’s all over and done – the COLLEAGUES IN THE MEDIA’!
The ball hasn’t crossed the line and now we have referee review it never will!
Lol – take care COLLEAGUES.
There doesn’t seem to be much in the Tory manifesto. (As I write, the actual document isn’t out, but key promises have been revealed.)
NHS] They promise to make hospital car parking free for “protected groups”, i.e. not for most patients and visitors. (They also say it will be free for NHS staff. Gee, thanks. And nurses and hospital cleaners etc. won’t be charged for using the toilets either?) Which company operates most hospital car parks? Do they donate to the Tory party? What are the Tories going to say when they get asked “Why can’t everyone who needs to park in a hospital car park be allowed to without charge?” Will they seriously say “Because that would cost so much to implement” or “Because some people would abuse the right”?
Dominic Cummings is not running this campaign, but doubtless he is still having a big influence on it. He may be reliving the 2016 referendum. The difference is that whereas in 2016 the Leave side could tell lies about how leaving the EU would help the NHS, and the Tories can now tell the same lies, and therefore Leave corresponds to Tory in that sense, the same is not true on the other side. Whereas Remain couldn’t (or at least didn’t) say much about the NHS, Labour can say a lot about it. Labour are the party of the NHS. It’s good for Labour that NHS policy is one of the battleground issues. Cummings may find he has boxed himself in.
Young people] The Tories don’t seem to offer anything much to young people. Labour’s promise to abolish tuition fees is a votewinner, and not just with the young.
Immigration] Unfortunately the “Australian points system” could win votes for the Torties because, like “Brexit”, it is code for “white power”.
Boris Johnson] The Tories could be in difficulty with Boris Johnson. Bullingdon Club Boris the Adulterer who won’t say how many children he’s got has a lot more that could come out about him than Theresa May’s admission that she once ran through a cornfield. He’s a very vulnerable leader.
Donald Trump] The Trump visit to Britain on 2-4 December could blow up in Johnson’s face. The (accurate) Labour line is that a Tory Brexit would mean handing over much of what is currently inside the NHS to US private companies. There could be a Trump event that makes this even clearer than it is already, that makes it clear that Labour are right.
All the running is made by Labour. It’s Labour who’ve got a great reform programme. The Tories are on the defensive. Even those who want Brexit, why should they trust such a bunch of shysters? Labour’s promise on Brexit is far more responsible: the Tories and Liberal Democrats are whingeing about Jeremy Corbyn’s “neutrality” – in other words that he will negotiate a good deal and then let the people decide – because he is outplaying them.
In the end this comes down to whether swing voters are going to be crazed with anti-immigrant hatred or whether they are going to be able to open their eyes a bit and choose more security, some actual social policy rather than a war of each against all, and what’s best for the future of their children – not a dream of living in a whites-only country but the achievement of decent aims such as getting educated and not being in huge debt for decades.
Summary
1) Tuition fees: good for Labour; Tories haven’t got anything to say other than “you gotta pay”.
2) NHS: Tories think they can fight on this, but seriously!! Those carparks!
3) Immigration: I like to think less than 42% of the British population are “Enoch was right” “race warrior” cowards and thickos, admirers of Tommy Robinson, but we’ll find out.
4) Johnson: a weakness.
The Tory manifesto is now out: here. The front has a picture of Boris Johnson wearing a poppy. The back has a picture of a group of middle-aged male manual labourers in overalls displaying a sign saying “We Love Boris” – and guess what, they’re all white.
“There are innumerable reasons for wanting to get out of european union, all concerning democracy and none of which require support for the tories, the torties or the far right”
Assange, the Chagos islanders’ plight, the WASPI women, the UN berating the British government on its disgraceful handling of the sick and disabled, and the deaths from it.
http://calumslist.org
You’ll rue the day we leave the EU losing food standards and employment laws but to name a few.
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/
I’m no Communist but Capitalism has killed millions as well.
https://eand.co/if-communism-killed-millions-how-many-did-capitalism-kill-2b24ab1c0df7
Finally as you are sawing the EU branch off the tree, Scot are in the process of sawing the UK branch off behind you.
Can you imagine the bureaucracy needed to manage the car parking at NHS hospitals under the terms of the Tory plans?
‘Hospital parking would become free for people with disabilities, frequent outpatients, parents of sick children staying overnight and NHS staff working night shifts. Parking is already free in Scotland and Wales.’
At my local district general hospital the private car parking outfit who inherited the management and the revenue of the car park from the NHS Trust, charge as follows:
1 Hour £3.40
2 Hours £4.50
3 Hours £5.00
4 Hours £5.50
6 Hours £6.50
24 Hours £9.50
Week £20.50
Disabled – Mon-Sun – All day- Flat Rate £4.00- Week £10.00
The company carry out no repairs nor maintain the parking ticket machines.
I worked at the hospital and paid £300 for an annual permit. When attending for radiotherapy treatment in 2014, I had to pay £3 to park each day for six weeks.
is Con-servative manifesto day the right day to write about ‘politically censored OPCW reports’
Peter Hitchen gives it a go anyway
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7718627/Sexed-dossier-furore-alleged-poison-gas-attack-Assad.html
Since it goes to the deep corruption of the NATO institution then yes it is.
But it has been known for quite a while since proper journalists chased down the White Helmets and the fake new they created for the spooks.
Similarly, the Skripal affair is equally a fake incident, as debunked at length by the Blogmire, and one that implicates the Foreign Secretary in office at the time.
Perhaps The Daily Mail put it there today hoping noone would read it.
The email casting doubt on the report is dated yesterday. So highly current.
Thus looks like a very significant Mail scoop. Has any other paper mentioned it?
The Tory manifesto promises
* more competitive sport in schools
* more use of electronic tagging, including sobriety tags
* 10000 more prison places
* tighter curfews
* sending in police to close down unauthorised traveller camps
* making migrants pay before they can benefit from the NHS
* “more homes (for) local families” (hint hint)
* to support the construction of “the UK Holocaust Memorial” (commemorating the victims of what Germans did in Poland and elsewhere 80 years ago) – interestingly Labour too promises that the curriculum “continues to teach issues like the Holocaust”. Should Armenians f*** off then?
“Should Armenians f*** off then?”
And the estimated 20 million Chinese killed by the Japanese too.
The Rape of Nanjing makes for a very uncomfortable read.
As RoS posted on Page 4 Re bbC editing out the Audience laughing at B.J.
An exchange on Twitter between Peter Oborne and Huw Edwards –
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1198573465432928256?
Note how others on that thread point out it was not the only Deliberate, Misleading, Propaganda edit.
there is no comfort from a Tory win MJ, apart from your bank balance going up.
what does the Tory manifesto say about family values and morals , if they dare use this word at all? He sees nothing wrong in breaking the law, lying to all and sundry, usurping Parliament with the help of the queen, attacking Corbyn for having no morals when it comes to traditional values, which stink to high heaven, but keeping quiet about his moral obligation as a father, more interested in lying and false news that providing moral substance to his children and ex wife’s
When did you last talk to your children about Christmas, Boris? what message can bring to other single parents like yourself? Do you really think you can get away with questioning the morals of others, whilst being stumm on your own floundering,. less than responsible personal life?
Tell us something about family valu8es you don’t have Boris?
Some words from the architect of the NHS, the great Welsh socialist Aneurin Bevan:
“(N)o amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction (…) can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party (…) So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.”
“(W)e were attacked on our housing policy by every spiv in the country – for what is Toryism, except organized spivvery?“
Not forgetting this one too, also from Bevan:
“We enter this campaign at this general election, not merely to get rid of the Tory majority. We want the complete political extinction of the Tory Party“
If only. One can hope that with a leader like Johnson the Tories have finally slid into terminal decay but sadly the press and the ill informed general public seem to like this decaying corpse.
I could cry. Corbyn, the archetypal nuclear disarmament supporter had his thunder stolen by Nicola Sturgeon who is now claiming to be the only one of the 4 major parties in favour of nuclear disarmament.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/24/nuclear-weapon-kill-millions-cold-war-mentality-nicola-sturgeon
This is so calculating. Nicola knows what Corbyn’s position is but that he had to compromise because of the bloodthirsty Blairites. Of course the SNP can declare for unilateral disarmament because an indipendent Scotland has no need for nuclear arms. It is a kind of under the belt attack on Corbyn.
SA
Don’t be fooled into thinking it’s just the SNP – that HAVE ALWAYS BEEN 100% against WMD’s on My river.. Most Scots across All Spectrum’s are against Trident WMD’s.
Remember too..that Labour in Scotland refuse to stand in Seats that the SNP might win..Allowing the Tories to Gain.. Sickening.
I Do hope Jeremy Somehow Beats the MSM machine to become PM.
And I Fight for Independence for Scotland
P.S Fuck the bbC.. And ITV.. And Sky
PP.S RT Rule
Brian
I am just pointing the luxury that Nicola has of being to be so fully and openly anti Bomb , a luxury denied to Corbyn because of political expediency. I can well understand that no sane Scot would want these weapons in their backyard to keep Britain pretending to be a world power.
SA..Fair Point.. Sorry if I read that the wrong way..I’m disgusted at the Israeli Lobby’s treatment of J.C.. And Our So called Media .
And Our So called Media’s Treatment of J.C.
Hear! Hear! Brian.
Mary .. One to keep an eye on –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIk0iNSpjmU&t=10s
Thanks Brian. I will look at it. I had been checking her out including on Wikipedia. She must be tough to have withstood the amount of flak she has received from the Israel lobby and elsewhere.
Pleased to see that David Cromwell @ Medialens has supported her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Martin
There’s a link included to her new work on Gaza. I can’t see it ever coming to the local Odeon!
‘In May 2019, Martin briefly released her feature film documentary, The Empire Files: Gaza Fights for Freedom, about the Gaza–Israel conflict, through scheduled select cinema screenings. She plans to release it freely online before the end of August 2019.’
I see ‘Philip Cross’ has edited Abby Martin’s page too. Such a busy person/s
Brian, like Mary I applaud you for this very important link. We should all watch this interview and recoil at what the I****lies are doing to Palestinian civilians withe the aid and coercion of westernmedia and governments.
The debate about whether x would or would not push the nuclear button is pointless, as Trident is rented from the US, and there is certainly a back-door which would prevent a launch undesired by the US, or, indeed, could launch without British approval. Do we have any other nuclear weapons? The bombs carried by the Vulcans used in the Falklands War must be obsolete by now.
PS. Wiki on Britain’s nuclear weapons only talks about Trident.
Laguerre
I have Much more Detailed, Accurate stuff than Wiki.
give then.
It doesn’t matter what Ms Sturgeon and Mr Corbyn think, because the willingness to press the button is a quality admired by the people who count – the voters. It is the millions of English voters who will only vote for a psychopath who should worry us.
Jo Swinson shows her calibre – she smiles when she declares her willingness to murder hundreds of thousands of civilians (strategic nuclear weapons are designed to be used against cities) and follows it up by grinning in self-admiration when Nina Hossain congratulates her as having uttered a “brilliant” answer, namely “Yes”.
What about chemical weapons? Or biological weapons? Or murdering similar numbers in extermination camps? Hossain would be signing on the dole now if she’d had the guts to put those questions to Swinson.
The Tories keep saying a vote for Labour is a vote for a Labour-SNP agreement and for a second indyref. They may well now tie that notion to “defence”, often a word for attacking foreign countries for US business interests and Israel, and for Britain having nuclear weapons, neither of which has the slightest thing to do with defence.
If Labour were to introduce a bill honouring their manifesto commitment to replace Trident, would SNP MPs vote against? I hope they would vote against rather than abstain.
Corbyn and Labour voted to renew Trident. Why are you castigating a leader who is saying they are obscene and should not be on our soil? It is not about undermining anyone’s position; it is standing up for sanity.
I have had to look deep into the interweb to find ANY indications of how the Friday debate was polled – remember the first debate of a significant number of polled (30k people) was unanimous for Corbyn – so hasn’t it been a surprise that 48 hours later the big pollsters have not pipped a squeak yet ?
So seat back and grab some popcorn here is what Wales on Line has to report ( i have no underlying data or how many were involved). READY ?
1. Rate the performance of the four leaders
Jeremy Corbyn – you rated him nearly eight out of ten
Nicola Sturgeon – you rated her six out of ten
Boris Johnson – you rated him five out of ten
Jo Swinson – you rated her nearly five out of ten
2. Who won the debate?
Jeremy Corbyn topped our poll with 60% of the vote.
Boris Johnson came in with 22%, Nicola Sturgeon with 12% , Jo Swinson with 2% and 6% of you claiming you didn’t know.
3. Has the debate changed your mind about who to vote for?
A small 17% of you said yes , while 76% said no .
Meanwhile, a 7% said they weren’t sure further said they weren’t sure.
4. Who appeared to have the best ideas?
Once again Jeremy Corbyn takes the lead of the vote with 61% .
Boris Johnson came in at 20% , while Nicola Sturgeon had 9% of the vote and Jo Swinson had 4% .
A further 6% said they didn’t know.
5. Who would make the best leader?
Jeremy Corbyn was deemed to be the best leader with 52% of the vote.
Boris Johnson had 25% and Nicola Sturgeon had 15% .
Jo Swinson had only 3% of the vote, while 5% claimed they weren’t sure.
6. Who do you trust the most?
Jeremy Corbyn came out on top with 55% of the vote, with Boris Johnson behind with 18% .
Nicola Sturgeon had 15% , Jo Swinson had 4% and 7% claimed they didn’t know.
7. Whose priorities best match what you think is important?
More good news for Jeremy Corbyn as he came out with 62% of the vote.
Boris Johnson was quite behind with 23% , and Nicola Sturgeon took 8% .
Jo Swinson had 4% , with a further 3% claiming they weren’t sure
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/corbyn-johnson-question-time-leaders-17303868.amp ‘
Thankyou and goodnight!
So typical to keep on ignoring the Brexit party’s Nigel Farage: is he any less apt than the others? Who wants to hear the voice of the native manual workers, not the Right, center or Right. No wonder the UK is dooming itself.
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel a total sense of despair when they hear stupidities echoed over and again?
Was just looking at this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/johnson-corbyn-sturgeon-vote-snp-leadership-scotland
How often do these petty-minded mercenary journalists need to repeat the same utter rubbish? Do they have anything inside their head that allows them to think for themselves, and come up with anything other than ‘Sturgeon is grown-up’, ‘Corbyn is not a good statesman’, ‘Boris is a clown’, ‘Jeremy lacks public speaking skills’.
I wouldn’t really care, but the problem is that in my daily interactions with others, what then happens is that these same cliches are repeated ad infinitum, and I just feel so bored and hopeless.
And if you are one of the idiots who believes that everyone has the right to to try and become a billionaire then you can count your money whilst your spending time in your bunker.
If you fail to become one you’ll be as dead as the rest of us.
But for you you’ll enjoy the revenge od sending one back.
Trouble is you’ll be dead before your revenge reply arrives.
That’s why it’s called MAD.
Mutually Assured Destruction.
Shouldn’t you be getting your Brexit done?
The question is what you are going to do after geting Brexit Done?
Any ideas?
By the way : If you think Corbyn’s a ;’ Marxist ‘ then you have never met any Marxists except through the columns of the Mail/Sun and Express.
They don’t know what Marxists are or look like either.
Suggestion for a question to be asked of any prospective MP:
‘All past investigations have been dropped against Julian Assange and he has served his time in prison for skipping bail, yet on extradition charges at the behest of the US Government he is still being held in Belmarsh top security Prison, (often for long periods in solitary confinement which the UN rapporteur on human rights, states amounts to torture).
This action by the current UK government crosses international law on asylum and raises serious concerns about sovereignty, torture, and freedom of speech.
If voted in as our MP how would you address this gross injustice.
Could you state if, under your watch, a person such as Julian Assange and other publishers and journalists who reveal the truth – including revelations of war crimes, would be viewed as criminals?’
Thank you, Mary, an excellent and extremely relevant post. Sadly this wil be overshadowed by those guffawing oafs: get Brexit Done.
Yes, get the thing finalised, but not at the expense of so much else that should be of interest to us all.
Neat bit of propaganda, the “letter from Nicola” (not the SNP leader) that the Tory campaign put out today from the Boris Johnson Twitter account. Short, cheap, carrying the easy to understand message that “Boris has the respect of ordinary people with middle-of-the-road attitudes who aren’t political activists”.
The spelling of “God” as “G-d” is an act of baiting against critics of how the Zionist lobby has involved itself in this election. Anyone who comments on it is liable to be labelled anti-Semitic.
Labour need to run a few tricks like this. I mean before the Trump event and the anti-Zinoviev letter that win this election for Labour in the final 10 days!!
Tonights telling view of a South Yorkshire jogger, indicative of a switched off middle class ex Labour constituency. She said ‘ Boris is not trustworthy, but I like him’.
Sounds almost like a song, made up bu a sixties group and revamped for a total media controlled election campaign, one were newspresenters point out the amazing feat of ‘shimmying’, when you make a comment that one other party’s manifesto is much more expensive as the Conservative party’s aspirational wishful thinking, what absolutely amazing support by a BBC 10pm newsmuppet.
Almost every day we are told that the polls say that the Torys are miles ahead, with vox pops of ‘normal’ people despising Corbyn thrown in live.
What a surprise, the ministries of truth, SCL, and those holed up in some godforsaken Scottish Mill, all involved to swing it for the man without children, the father that never was, not now, not at xmas, and not when some of the dull brains of Yorkshire have elected him.
The BBC is partial to suit the international drang/ desire to keep a principled socialist put of power. Shame on all of them.
Or the Dick Emery in drag ‘you’re awful but I like you’ followed by a shove.
Back to the 70’s indeed.
If the Tories win a majority, i hardly think it’ll be down to those holed up in Scottish mills… the Tories haven’t won a majority of seats in Scotland in living memory. In England they’ve dominated for about 40 years. I assume everybody here accepts that Blair was a Tory.
My expectation is that Labour will surprise everybody in this election. Boris is relying too heavily on the Brexit vote and there are hard limits on that vote somewhere in the region of 45% of vote share.
The more ordinary people think about issues outside of Brexit, the better the chances of the Labour Party. And I think I believe Corbyn when he says he will honour the Brexit vote by giving people a final say on a deal. There’s probably quite a lot of Brexit supporters who believe that too and quite a lot who would be happy with a softer Brexit, negotiated and delivered by Corbyn.
This election is as much about bread and butter issues for a lot of people as it is about Brexit. People might trust Boris to deliver Brexit but I doubt if many at the lower end of the income scale trust him on bread and butter.
Nobody anywhere today really believes Brexit will make them better off, not for about 20 years anyway, and on that basis I think a good proportion of pro-Brexit working class types will be tempted to vote Labour; a soft Brexit with massive investment in welfare, jobs, nhs, etc., is a good option for them.
Hatuey
Nevermind’s referral to the Scottish mills is I think the (lack of) integrity initiative.
I agree with what you say and this is why Boris’s Gets Brexit done’ has now become an albatross rather than a vote winner.
I assumed there was more to it than I understood. And SCL?
“Almost every day we are told that the polls say that the Torys are miles ahead, with vox pops of ‘normal’ people despising Corbyn thrown in live.”
They were saying that at the last election, right up to the morning of polling day, and look at the actual result.
A ” BIG, THUMPING TORY MAJORITY” may well happen, if people continue to be blind to what’s about to happen to them.
They want people to think that’s highly likely and stay at home but I don’t even think it’s possible now.
A Wee Haiku ..to / about The Evil Tories –
The Sociopaths
Worship and Aid Genocides
Their god is Money
The LibDems have suspended their candidate in the safe Labour seat of Hackney North (from their party, that is: they can’t from the ballot paper). It’s the 73014284th “offensive tweet” story. The amusing side is his hilarious response: “Some of my old tweets contain language I’m not proud of, but mostly they’re just the product of someone who talks a lot of sh*t“. Are we supposed to say, “You talk a lot of sh*t? You sound like the ideal person to represent us all in Parliament, mate! Never mind those sourfaced gits who criticise you just because you talk sh*t! You’ve got my vote!”?
I’m personally in an horrible position with this election. The SNP candidate for my area makes me sick. He devotes most of his time to attacking Russia and the other day I noticed him criticising some top British army guy for not stationing enough troops in Scotland. You read all that correctly and I’m not making it up.
I simply can’t vote for an idiot that thinks these things are priorities. Does he think it was Russia that flatted Iraq or Libya? Does he think it’s Russia that’s arming and supporting Israel and causing them to treat Palestinians like that? If it wasn’t for Russia, Syria and probably Iran would have been whacked by now too.
I honestly can’t believe a guy like that is even in the SNP. Wtf?
Hatuey
What is his position on Palestine. In fact what is the SNP position on this issue?
I think it is now de rigueur to bash Russia. Ben Bradshaw is a specialist on this.
Another question is will an Independent Scotland renounce nuclear weapons in Faslane but remain under NATO’s nuclear umbrella?
It’s SNP policy to get rid of nuclear weapons. That I’m sure would be the policy whether NATO had an umbrella or not. Are you suggesting they’d be in favour of nukes if NATO didn’t provide an umbrella? No offence, but that’s the sort of stuff the Daily Mirror and Telegraph say…
As for Palestine, I’m sure the SNP like everyone else claims to want a two state solution, and blah blah blah. Nobody except the US is in a position to do a thing so let’s not pretend anything that any of us says, including the SNP, is ever likely to matter.
Also I seem to have heard somewhere that in one of the discussions that Corbyn was criticised for his support for Morales but that seems to have died the death since it transpired that the coup in Bolivia is by fascists.
I take the greatest care to avoid knowing anything about my SNP MP for just these reasons.
I will do my duty on the 12th and vote SNP but with without much enthusiasm, they are still the only road to independence that I can see.
The upper SNP hierarchy are infected with this right wing foreign policy bullshit – totally out of step with the membership.
Talking of unilateral nuclear disarmament for U.K. is indeed meaningless without talking about continued membership of NATO and would also apply to an independent Scotland.
In fact none of the ‘non-nuclear’ NATO members are really nuclear disarmed. When talking about nations with nuclear capabilities it is usual to include only the 5 permanent members of the UNSC plus 3 other Asian states but to this must be added the 26 non-nuclear NATO members which actually means that 34 countries are nuclear powers.
I know that for labour to bring up membership of NATO now would be suicide, but what should be capitalised on is that at least the expense of maintaining and renewing the nuclear detterant for the benefit of NATO should at least be deducted from our contributions until such a time as we become truly indipendent and regain our sovereignty, not from the EU but from NATO.
SA
” Talking of unilateral nuclear disarmament for U.K. is indeed meaningless without talking about continued membership of NATO and would also apply to an independent Scotland ”
Maybe that is for an independent Scotland to Decide..
I think he wants to hold Scotland to a standard that nobody else is held to. We’ve seen these “principled” arguments a million times, heralded by people who for some reason think hypocrisy is the moral high ground.
I think you have somewhat overreacted. I merely point out the inherent irrationality of the whole argument. Presumably Faslane is a cog in NATO’s nuclear policy and possibly an important one, and therefore it may not be possible to disengage the two.
I do realise that nuclear disarmament has to start somewhere and Scotland’s position is clear and I pointed this out and that sadly this is a luxury denied Corbyn because of this being an unpopular thing to say in England and very popular in Scotland.
Now as to your accusations of hypocrisy I had taken you to be mire mature than you seem to be. You may have gathered that I am neither a telegraph or mirror reader but choose to lump me with those. Don’t worry I forgive you.
I am not holding Scotland to higher standards, I admire the ability of a newly independent Scotland to banish nuclear weapons not only by asking for Faslane to be dismantled but to set the argument so that European nations should begin to understand that this is the start of a process and only Scotland could renounce any form of nuclear defence.
SA
” Talking of unilateral nuclear disarmament for U.K. is indeed meaningless without talking about continued membership of NATO and would also apply to an independent Scotland.
Nuclear disarmament would just be a first phase of de nuclearisation. It works best if this would be a Europe wide move, with France and UK leading it.
But this would also mean taking control over foreign US bases that litter the continent, harbouring nukes, they would have to be shut as they are clearly primary targets in any aggression.
Faslane is just such a place, it harbours nuclear subs with missiles that are under NATO/US control. As are Mildenhall and Lakenheath, all part of such a move in my view.
We can be as unilateral as we like, but its not just about the actual nuclear weaponry alone, it is also about command centres, bases and nuclear arsenals such as the one near Brian Fujisan’s home round the corner from Faslane.
Iraq was struck by Israeli jets just for making fissionable material, something to bear in mind.
Nuclear disarmament can do with some unilateralism to start the ball rolling, but it is a fairly comprehensive set of negotiations which will only work if it is reciprocated by others who equally think that nuclear weapons are not the answer.
The American based in Europe are a sign of colonisation if Europe since WW2 and inability of Europe to form a policy independent of that of US.
In fact although I am a staunch remainer I feel that there are two major factors that have put me off the EU. The first is that it instead of remaining an economic common market, it has mixed this membership of NATO, a political and military entity that is under direct control of the EU. This has also led to the second problem which is that of incorporating two tiers of nations with unequal development in order to incorporate the former Warsaw Pact countries into an aggressive and not a defensive organisation.
Group of 60 doctors, including from other countries, write to Patel, Home Secretary, expressing their great concern about Julian Assange’s health and saying that he could die in prison and should be moved to hospital.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/nov/25/julian-assanges-health-is-so-bad-he-could-die-in-prison-say-60-doctors
Is there any indication Jeremy Corbyn, if elected, would block the extradition ?
Corbyn has said “(Assange) should not be extradited to the US”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47904837
Now the bogus allegations in Sweden are off the table, there is no reason to extradite Assange to any other country.
In my opinion, the UK should also simply tear up the very unfair US-UK extradition treaty agreed by the two war criminals Bush and Blair.
But Patel has got to be one of the most disgusting persons on earth. Hearing her accent is enough to confirm that, without even having to pay attention to the garbage that comes out of that mouth.
Shouldn’t we be writing to people that are interested in listening (rather than narcissistic Tories, who are typically only interested in listening to themselves speak)?
But there is hope in the results of the Hong Kong local elections. Carrie Lam is in a very difficult position now when the vast majority of the population disagree with her.