It is very difficult to collect my thoughts into something coherent after four hours sleep in the last 48 hours, but these are heads of key issues to be developed later.
I have no doubt that the Johnson government will very quickly become the most unpopular in UK political history. The ultra-hard Brexit he is pushing will not be the panacea which the deluded anticipate. It will have a negative economic impact felt most keenly in the remaining industry of the Midlands and North East of England. Deregulation will worsen conditions for those fortunate enough to have employment, as will further benefits squeezes. Immigration will not in practice reduce; what will reduce are the rights and conditions for the immigrants.
Decaying, left-behind towns will moulder further. The fishing industry will very quickly be sold down the river in trade negotiations with the EU – access to fishing (and most of the UK fishing grounds are Scottish) is one of the few decent offers Boris has to make to the EU in seeking market access. His Brexit deal will take years and be overwhelmingly fashioned to benefit the City of London.
There is zero chance the Conservatives will employ a sizeable number of extra nurses: they just will not be prepared to put in the money. They will employ more policemen. In a couple of years time they will need them for widespread riots. They will not build any significant portion of the hospitals or other infrastructure they promised. They most certainly will do nothing effective about climate change. These were simply dishonest promises. The NHS will continue to crumble with more and more of its service provision contracted out, and more and more of its money going into private shareholders’ pockets (including many Tory MPs).
The disillusionment will be on the same scale as Johnson’s bombastic promises. The Establishment are not stupid and realise there will be an anti-Tory reaction. Their major effort will therefore be to change Labour back into a party supporting neo-liberal economic policy and neo-conservative foreign (or rather war) policy. They will want to be quite certain that, having seen off the Labour Party’s popular European style social democratic programme with Brexit anti-immigrant fervour, the electorate have no effective non-right wing choice at the next election, just like in the Blair years.
To that end, every Blairite horror has been resurrected already by the BBC to tell us that the Labour Party must now move right – McNicol, McTernan, Campbell, Hazarayika and many more, not to mention the platforms given to Caroline Flint, Ruth Smeeth and John Mann. The most important immediate fight for radicals in England is to maintain Labour as a mainstream European social democratic party and resist its reversion to a Clinton style right wing ultra capitalist party. Whether that is possible depends how many of the Momentum generation lose heart and quit.
Northern Ireland is perhaps the most important story of this election, with a seismic shift in a net gain of two seats in Belfast from the Unionists, plus the replacement of a unionist independent by the Alliance Party. Irish reunification is now very much on the agenda. The largesse to the DUP will be cut off now Boris does not need them.
For me personally, Scotland is the most important development of all. A stunning result for the SNP. The SNP result gave them a bigger voter share in Scotland than the Tories got in the UK. So if Johnson got a “stonking mandate for Brexit”, as he just claimed in his private school idiom, the SNP got a “stonking mandate” for Independence.
I hope the SNP learnt the lesson that by being much more upfront about Independence than in the disastrous “don’t mention Independence” election of 2017, the SNP got spectacularly better results.
I refrained from criticising the SNP leadership during the campaign, even to the extent of not supporting my friend Stu Campbell when he was criticised for doing so (and I did advise him to wait until after election day). But I can say now that the election events, which are perfect for promoting Independence, are not necessarily welcome to the gradualists in the SNP. A “stonking mandate” for Independence and a brutal Johnson government treating Scotland with total disrespect leaves no room for hedge or haver. The SNP needs to strike now, within weeks not months, to organise a new Independence referendum with or without Westminster agreement.
If we truly believe Westminster has no right to block Scottish democracy, we need urgently to act to that effect and not just pretend to believe it. Now the election is over, I will state my genuine belief there is a political class in the SNP, Including a minority but significant portion of elected politicians, office holders and staff, who are very happy with their fat living from the devolution settlement and who view any striking out for Independence as a potential threat to their personal income.
You will hear from these people we should wait for EU trade negotiations, for a decision on a section 30, for lengthy and complicated court cases, or any other excuse to maintain the status quo, rather than move their well=paid arses for Independence. But the emergency of the empowered Johnson government, and the new mandate from the Scottish electorate, require immediate and resolute action. We need to organise an Independence referendum with or without Westminster permission, and if successful go straight for UDI. If the referendum is blocked, straight UDI it is, based on the four successive election victory mandates.
With this large Tory majority, there is nothing the SNP MPs can in practice achieve against Westminster. We should now withdraw our MPs from the Westminster Parliament and take all actions to paralyse the union. This is how the Irish achieved Independence. We will never get Independence by asking Boris Johnson nicely. Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is a fool or a charlatan.
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Democracy???
The SNP would in a saner world be moving to declare independence, you do not need a second ref given this result one that will again be corrupted by the MSM.
Do I think the SNP will deliver? I just can’t see it. The centrist tendency is to large, I hope to be proved wrong but I’m not holding my breath.
The people will deliver. Craig is correct the SNP must move swiftly before this English driven corruption paralyses Scotland’s endeavours towards independence. Whatever it takes we must now stand up and act. Withdraw our MP’s from the meaningless talking shop of Westminster. UDI and yellow vests may now be required. Whatever it takes.
Agreed
It isn’t going to happen though is it. Not with Nicola.
“stand up and act”, “Whatever it takes”, … Isn’t such a resolve predicated on dignity, a paramount desire to be free? A people who merely wish to ditch their London master but keep their Brussels one may have an insufficient supply of these. The Scottish issue is not my fight so I may be wrong, but I don’t see a fighting spirit anywhere close to what would be required.
Turkeys voting for Christmas,who said the English voters are more intelligent to be fooled by charlaton tories?
I said a while back Brexit may be a ruse to foil socialist opposition to neo-liberalism. They couldn’t form another phony political party like New Labour because that abomination is still too fresh; it will take two more generations, our passing and the rewriting of history before they can pull that stunt again. So I think they called the referendum to split the Labour vote, then got the Blairite faction to deny democracy. It doesn’t necessarily mean the vote for Labour was split, but it provided the excuse to rig the election which without Brexit they couldn’t possibly hope to get away with it. Farage played his part well, dividing the opposition to the Tories. And to cap it all off I’m not so sure there will be a Brexit. But it screwed socialism through democracy, well and truly. I think Corbyn won, his support was so big.
I think we’re headed for massive riots, after which an election will be called and we may get something better then, but I doubt it’ll be anything like the egalite Corbyn would have brought us.
Yeah, that’s pretty much it.
The Brexit sham at the core of the whole thing.
Explains those rather curious events in the Farage, UKIP, Brexit party, story.
That’s the best explanation I’ve heard. So the Brexit bullshit was the great diversion to wreck a Corbyn victory.
The thing is, unless you plan on exterminating a substantial fraction of them, most of these voters will still be around come the next election. “Blame the voters” may feel good in the short run, but it’s seldom a productive reaction for the LOSING party. It’s like Boeing’s “blame the pilots” for the 737 MAX crashes, but who else do they think is going to fly their crappy planes? All the time on this blog (principal as well as commenters) I see a rehash of Hillary’s “deplorables” rhetoric, and how did that work out for her again.
Well, the SNP have nothing holding them back now. Brexit WILL happen, so they can’t go on about stopping it. Independence is the top of their list now, the doors are wide open, so lets see if NS and the SNP have the cajones to go ahead with independence. Now we’ll see what they’re really all about.
I agree with Mr Murray here, Mist, that there are careerists in the SNP who would be happy with more powers and a slow decline into acceptance that the game is over. Mr Murray has suggested UDI, and I would resile the Treaty, but, essentially, more and more within the YES orbit are beginning to realize that we will have to take action of some kind. If the leadership go to the courts, which courts? Going to the domestic courts will be pointless because they must rule within the constitutional arrangements, and the constitutional arrangements put Westminster in charge. We simply cannot approach this question as a devolved administration, but as a nation – a nation that has had enough, a nation in a supposed union that has been shafted. We must push on the Treaty terms and the bad faith of Westminster since 1707. In fact, Brexit itself breaches several Treaty Articles alone. If we are happy to be a second-rate devolved administration, then we will go to the domestic courts and lose. Even if we are given a S30 Order, we still have to win the referendum – and the vote today is in no way indicative of the possibility that the Scottish electorate, given a second opportunity, would not vote NO again. If we extrapolate from the 2014 vote, take the YES vote, add on the small percentage gain (and it is small) from NO/Remainers, add in the EU voters who will likely vote YES next time, then subtract all those from the overall vote, we still get a negative result – because an independence referendum is not an election and there will be no Brexit to stop because we have already lost Brexit.
“… We simply cannot approach this question as a devolved administration, but as a nation – a nation that has had enough, a nation in a supposed union that has been shafted…”
Exactly this.
It’s alright you going on about cajones but you are the one living in France. All you do is post negative crap.
If a second independence referendum, not approved by Westminster, is held, how do you suppose the establishment would react? Would we see scenes much like those in Catalonia recently? Would they send in troops? They are desperate to hold onto Scotland at all costs, and from what we’ve seen, they have no problem about lying via the rigged mainstream media to distort the facts. I fear it is all about to turn very ugly. As a Scot exiled in England, what should I do? I want to move back to Scotland but I’d have to firstly find a job there, not easy at my age. I’d look at work in Europe, but with Brexit that option is removed now, and European companies place UK applications at the bottom of the list. Too old to emigrate to an English speaking country like Canada, Australia or New Zealand. How will the people respond in Edinburgh and Glasgow when they send tanks and troops onto the streets of both cities? Wishing I had Irish grandparents because a move there would keep me in the EU.
As for moving to Scotland my impression from others is that it is comparatively easy to get work, depending on the sector.
If they send in the tanks to quash Independence, or even if they baton on the head grannies trying to vote like they did in Catalonia, it would have to be absolutely literally over my dead body, and I suspect quite a few others too. They can’t win that way.
” over my dead body, and I suspect quite a few others too. They can’t win that way.”
That’s an illusion. This is exactly the way to win, after all else fails. You, having been to Uzbekistan, should know.
Craig – glad to hear you say it, but it’s not unknown for them to act that way. If they can’t rig the vote (which they do have a history of, and which is why we need international observers to ensure the referendum is run fair and square), they have form for resorting to dirty and underhanded tactics e.g. agents provocateurs. I was a teenager in the 70s and I can remember very clearly reports of brutal British troops in Northern Ireland during the occupation, these being people now enjoying their army pensions in retirement, yet who in any just society would be had up for their murders. We hear of their oppressive and hateful actions even today in documentaries about Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy and countless other atrocities. With fifty years of hindsight, with every inquiry whitewashed away, the average English view is dumbed down to the point of imbecility, based on ignorance, half-truths and even support for the supposedly “brave” Paras who were there “serving queen and country”, even if it’s widely known that their cowardly troops shot down unarmed people. As usual though, they play the game of “blame the victims”. These are evil people who would stop at nothing to keep Scotland and their “position on the global stage”. I hope events prove you to be right though, and that there can be a “velvet divorce” as happened in Czechoslovakia. History shows that the ruling class are malign and incompetent though, especially vindictive when turfed out, e.g. thinking of the partition of India and the chaos they caused. With Scotland they seem to take it even more personally.
lead cosh or lee enfield 303 mk4 rifle not needed old biy bor the army.
leave it too agents in the doctors surgery or hospital.
liverpool care pathway is a model of mass slaughter and everyone loves the doctors vaccine vitamins
do they not
winter cull is already happening
Agreed
I’m ready
Come home and help us, Baritone. If you have relatives you care about down there, take them home with you. Most of us have relatives in England. I hope they will come home and help us build our own future. Let us take our independence first.
Thanks Lorna – I’m trying to find a job in Scotland. I’m in a narrow line of work, probably too late to retrain for anything else now, but I hope something comes up. Being in a land of small minded bigots and xenophobes is not a future. Here’s hoping.
My immediate (English) circle have no problem with a separate Scotland and indeed support it (along with an end to Barnett formula funding.) One or two, having drink taken, like to point out if that an independent Scotland joined the EU, there would be an end to free movement between Scotland and England. Unless a special exemption is granted. Would that, could that work?, would native Scots living in England have to return home or apply for residency permits and vice versa.
Mrs Paul
When England leaves the EU the Irish in the Republic who are in the EU will continue via common free travel area to access England.
The UK has had 312 years to create a decent union. It doesn’t care and it won’t start now. Scottish independence is the only path.
“…an end to Barnett formula funding..” – you’re a comedienne as well, then? Taking 100% of everything from someone then giving them around 95% of it back is not “funding”.
At the last Indy march I went on, there was a guy behind me talking about there being ex forces people in clubs up and down Scotland who would be out on the streets if any force was used by WM. He reckoned there were more ex forces guys than there are in the depleted UK army. No idea if that is true or just his wishful thinking.
Inspiring speech, and direct to the point by the FM on ITV a few minutes ago. She must now move with haste before Johnson drags us out of the EU, on the 31st of January.
I’d imagine Johnsons 80 majority will, see his government debase even further the very poor EU deal already on the table.
Meanwhile the Tory media has been sticking the boot into Corbyn all morning.
Johnson will not just sell out the fishing industry but the farming one as well. They’ll be more privatisation of the NHS, a tighter clampdown on foreigners entering England.
Our supermarket shelves will be flooded with inferior light regulated foods, at the expense of our own suppliers, thousand if not hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost.
No huge EU subsidies will see more job losses, whilst the DWP which the UN has alresdy calked a humanitarian crisis, will come down even harder on the poor, sick and disabled under the Tories. This is just the tip of a very large iceberg.
Re “Meanwhile the Tory media has been sticking the boot into Corbyn all morning.”
Not just the Tories, Hodge, the MP for Barking, was given a slot on the front page of the so- called independent newspaper (online), blaming everything on him.
Not just those. Here in NZ (I’m a “proud Englishman” – a term never used here, only reserved for “proud Irish/Scottish/Welsh”) who has been here 15 years. On the main radio channel RNZ over the last few days we have had tirades about Jeremy Corbyn (just prior to and post election) from Matthew Parris (a regular go-to for opinion about what goes on in the UK, wtf), Jonathan Freedland, and, twice, good old Kiwi ex-Labour [sic] MP for Grimsby, Austin Mitchell. All of the poison lapped up by uncritical interviewers. I couldn’t believe it – the last even praising Boris Johnson and believing he is sincere and will deliver. Parris came out with all the old tropes about Corbyn being a terrorist sympathizer, Marxist and was deeply unpopular with everyone.
I agree with all of that CM – i’ve already put mu reactions on your previous.
Scotland – good luck.
For us in the rest of the country i say the following final words before attending to other negected matters for the next few days – excuse the length.
——–
Expect a proper dissection of the changing seats in the future when i and others get around to it.
The Labour wall didn’t collapse just because Lab voters all suddenly voted Tory.
There were other spoilers besides Brexit party – look at Ashfield/ Bassetlaw etc the NuLab zombies did their bit to stuff their erstwhile Labour party.
LibDems did their bit such as in London with ChukkaU and Sam G and miss moneypants ran cover campaigns with full media (LBC) support, to takeLab votes and let/kept Tories in.
This kind of spoilering along with dog whistle racism (can you IMAGINE Dianne? – look at dem gangsta grime yoof.., Corbyn the muslim lover …) AND ballot RIGGING using postal votes, GUARANTEED a labour defeat.
Here are the top 3 comments from the vote tory plastered Mail main article yesterday to show how the donkeys were led by the nose back to the cliff edge and then encouraged to jump.
1.st
Posh14a, Alfreton, United Kingdom, 1 day ago
Prayer for today. Please God save us from Corbyn. Amen
13,000 likes
2nd.
Steve, Bridgend, 1 day ago
‘Braving the weather ??? I”d walk over broken Glass to keep Corbyn away from number 10. !!’
10,500 likes
3rd
SlowDeath, None, United Kingdom, 1 day ago
The NHS is struggling because of mass immigration and that is down to Blair.
9,600 likes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784125/Election-2019-Boris-Johnson-voters-cast-ballot.html?offset=2755&max=100&jumpTo=comment-491718413#comments-7784125
See ?
Many of us aren’t so easily fooled.
It is exactly reminiscent of 83.
It kicked off the big attacks on society after the austerity of mass unemployment, a jingoistic war. But what won it for them was the proto NuLabourites -the SDP – without whom Thatcher would not have got a second term.
These who remember will not forget the creation of the first national police force state in this country to fight the miners and unions.
We won’t forget that led to eventual resistance in the poll tax riots via anti-apartheid and various other causes including Greenham Common and womens lib movements,
ALL starting with the RACE riots.
Yeah. That.
The tory voting Glasto loving monied classes forget the free festivals that originated their Yurty playpens of fun. Some probably used to be these anarcho hippy types!
The moral corruption is advanced.
BUT…
Corbynism has succeeded in politizing a whole new generation of young – as we were in the 80’s – and boy I tell you, we are not going to let them carry the fight by themselves, for their emancipation causes and we won’t let them be railroaded by the next SDP/NuLabInc clones whose apparatchiks betrayed the movement with their visceral hatred of little socialist Jeremy, because they are so deluded by the presidential model of governance.
And we won’t let it take another generation to rise.
The Empire struck back but that just means a bigger battle is on its way.
But not right now – there is tea to be drunk, EU citizens to console and xmas to be had – then watch out – think the poll tax protests were bad? watch what happens when the HARD brexit approaches in January.
Things are gonna get… interesting.
Have to agree with all of this. Key is to maintain solidarity and work with the youth to build a cohesive opposition to the neo-liberal hellscape we see here from south of the border. Power to our elbows.
If I remember rightly that was all preceded with Thatcher giving the police and armed forces a pay rise…almost immediately she took power.
Yes I have a feeling too that Boris wont be popular but why is it that Labour dont win elections? What is it, 9 years since Labour had the power last time.
9 years? By my count, it’s 40 years.
Quite so.
So England and Wales cut their noses off to spite their faces, by voting for the Tories to ensure their leave Brexit vote and EU exit materialised, it did now they must reap the consequences of their kneejerk reactions at the polls.
Christ, such was the red mist of the thought of being denied their Brexit exit that even in the constituency othat houses Grenfell they vote for the Tories, talk about Turkeys voting for Christmas.
I think the election was stolen. The support for Corbyn was extremely large, but they had the excuse of Brexit to switch many of his votes. I don’t believe he lost and without Brexit we’d have known he was been robbed. I voted for Brexit but I voted for Corbyn and I believe most other Brexit voters will have voted for him too. We’re not turkeys voting for Christmas, we’re being farmed.
That’s my impression too, Michael. The BBC vox pops were part of the fraud.
I agree with that as well. It doesn’t stack up – it’s all far too pat – election going EXACTLY the way media and Neocon/Blairite propagandists have been insisting it would go since shortly after the last election.
I agree with the above. And I think they have revealed themselves by going too far in taking such a majority.
There was no way they were going to let Corbyn and his policies gain any kind of foothold in the western world. There is too much at stake: the oil and other mineral reserves in the Middle East and elsewhere, in Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia; and the land, in the case of Palestine. There has already been far too much investment and effort in these areas to allow any kind of resistance to gain a foothold.
A couple questions in the event of Scottish Independence:
How will the border between England and Scotland be handled – will there be a wall built?
What are the chances of the border constituencies breaking away from Scotland and re-joining England?
Speaking as someone born in Carlisle, I’d much rather the border constituences broke away from England and joined Scotland.
Well I don’t agree, you lot are like an echo chamber with the proper barking mad predictions, tanks and soldiers, dead bodies? What a complete tosh. This isn’t Iraq. Trust me the rest of Britain aren’t going to ‘fight’ to keep the ‘union’. If there’s any fighting in a physical way it will be Scots against each other, try not to forget about the millions of Scots who didn’t vote for the SNP, what are you lot going to do if they vote again to remain part of the hated union? Kill them?
Furthermore don’t fool yourselves that the EU will be waiting with open arms for you either, if by some miracle you do achieve your so called independence. They will always side with the biggest trading partner, (GB) as ‘we’ will still be a huge economy compared to ‘yours’, and trust me on this the UK will still be doing a whole lot of trade with the EU as far as the eye can see.
Why would there be a fence? Assuming Little England leaves the EU there might be customs posts. I have no problem with that at all.
The EU is concerned with [inferior] imports and has no interest in exports furth of the EU border. We all know what Scotland sells to England. What is it that we import from England. What does England have that a ‘hard’ border would exclude?
Why would there be a wall, Sooth? The border constituencies were never part of England. Scotland included part of Northumberland at one point in history. As usual, the Unionists are a**e over t**s about the reality of the situation. If we leave the UK, we leave with Scottish territory intact. Only afterwards would any breakaway be tolerated by the international community. This is also written into the Treaty and happens to be international law, too.
Lorna, I hope to God you are right, but that blue wall of Tory seats along the Border worries me. What if they did a partition as in Ireland?
The UN Charter specifically would make this a very stupid thing for the UK to even attempt, as many of those in the border constituencies are not Scots by birth. It would make the UK into an even bigger rogue state than it is already, and it would almost certainly trigger real conflict which would bog them down when they are trying to get Brexit done. There was no such Charter when the six counties were stripped out of Ireland, and, in any case, Britain tried, unsuccessfully, to off-load NI on to the Republic on several occasions because it has always been such a hassle. They would not want a part of Scotland to give them grief for generations to come, believe me. In any case, these border constituencies are Scottish, not English, and even part of what is now England was Scottish, so, actually, we have history on our side, too. I think, if we look closely at the constituencies that vote Tory now, they all have a high influx of rUK residents in common, and that includes Aberdeenshire and Moray in the N-East. Are they going to hive the N-east off, too? Let them try.
If Russia could get Crimea annexed and get away with it then why can’t England. Which countries follow the law these days?
Don’t forget that the “arsehole” Alister Jack only got in by 1,805 votes – so Dumfries &Galloway is 50/50.
The Red Tories in Labour could have stood aside to stop the Tory getting in here (some hope of that) and in Fluffy Mundell’s constituency next door as well.
Back to sleep
I can see a lot of people coming into Scotland just to transit to England. If that became a problem then how would it be policed. What would be the difference between that border and the Irish border?
These are genuine questions since it seems that Independence is a possibility again. If it wasn’t for the Scottish southerners then the vote would have been Yes last time.
It will be up to Scotland to give an undertaking that people will not have free travel through Scotland to get to England. It would be breaking international law for Scotland to do otherwise.
Sounds like some form of controlled border will be required.
Mustn’t let Johnny Foreigner in, eh?
Feeling very sad this morning, just wondering if the trade deal with the U.S. will involve war with Iran.
Not great is it, but we can still get out on our feet to try to prevent our involvement with any proposed crime of the great satan.
So what happened? You can’t go to the BBC for any kind of analysis, because they should be co-defendants in a lawsuit about supporting the Conservatives.
There are huge lines in front of voting places, which reminds anyone who paid attention of the tmie 2/3 of voting places were closed in Rhode Island, Puerto Rico and more placed in the USA. Meanwhile, the BBC only talks about voter fraud or personation (i.e. voting twice).
(BBC) Election 2019: Police Scotland investigate voting fraud claims
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50767154
“Renfrewshire Council said a possible case of personation had been reported to police in the Paisley and Renfrewshire North constituency.”
That is of course trivial.
What is not trivial, are the huge lines in safe Labour contintuencies:
(METRO UK) People still queuing round the block as 10pm poll deadline looms
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/12/longest-queues-ever-people-stand-line-around-block-vote-11771760/
Would these American style lines have anything to do with Steve Bannon’s influence on Boris Johnson?
Boris isn’t pushing for an ultra hard Brexit, far from it sadly. That being the case the fishing industry might be sold out in some gahstly deal. If we did get an ultra hard Brexit and a deregulation and low tax policy Britain would boom and your predictions of disaster would match your predictions on the election. Good luck siding with the SNP. If they get independence your dire economic predictions would come true north of the border.
Keith, go wave your Butchers Apron somewhere else.
“Boris isn’t pushing for an ultra hard Brexit, far from it sadly. ”
The man’s a compulsive serial liar, whose been caught out on several occasions, and you believe him.
I think the fishing industry is already doomed. They didn’t build that huge landing complex on the Humber for nothing. Also, NI could become the hub of Scottish fishing if the Brexit deal for NI holds. I believe that the plan has always been to take fishing out of Scottish control, as the oil and gas have effectively been taken out of our control when those 6000 plus sq.. miles of maritime territory became the quid pro quo for devolution and came under Westminster control and English jurisdiction. If we Brexit with rUK, this is how it will be done: death by a thousand cuts. Gradually, we will have nothing left to build an independent future on. We have allowed them to do this to us by voting for useless ‘British’ parties that are really English parties in kilts. England has always – for a thousand years – coveted Scotland. It is the recalcitrant Scots (and recalcitrant Welsh and Irish) that stand in the way, and have always stood in the way, of total English domination of the British Isles. What we need to do to get a proper perspective on what is happening is to take the 312 years of Union and set them against a thousand years of attempted conquest, and the picture becomes clear because even the Union was instigated to ensure that England came out on top and held all the aces. Because we fell for it. We need to stop falling for it.
Lorna
I do not disagree with any of your statement. However please see the “English” as a nation themselves that been subjugated – by the descendants of the Normans – for 954 years. They just got to us earlier than the Scottish, Cornish, Welsh and Irish. When the Norman’s won at Hastings the first thing they did, contrary to received wisdom, was head to Winchester, not London, as that city was then the capital and held the mint which was ransacked. Draw a line on a map of southern England between Hastings and Winchester and it is an almost unbroken succession of aristocratic estates. They stole the land on their first foray – and their descendants still hold it now. I cannot see Scottish independence happening without significant bloodshed unfortunately.
A Tory that can’t spell ghastly – who would have thought it.
I read a piece this week which predicted the 2020s will be known as the Gilded Cage. Where the older, wealthier generation will continue to pull up the ladder and shut the doors of opportunity on the next generation.
I still hope this prediction turns out to be wrong, but in the United Kingdom, sadly, it looks accurate.
The Tories won (although they shouldn’t have), the UK will leave the EU (as it should) and the natural anti-neoliberal Party, Labour, will wonder why they are not in office.
They should start with their Brexit position, which will lead them to the Blairites and the cosmopolitans, and that should cause the Party to take action and clean out this element.
They wont and as a consequence will stay out of office while blethering on about fake news, BBC bias and all the rest of it.
And when the UK doesn’t fall into the North Sea after leaving the EU, then it might become clear to them what all this was about. Money; the ability of a country with a fiat currency to create capital without incurring debt or issuing government bonds. The Magic Money Tree – MMT or its proper name: Modern Monetary Theory.
It’s a different game now, with very different rules. Scotland has a choice with independence – which I fully support. Remain within the UK sterling model and although the UK government can NEVER run out of money, we’ll still be using a begging bowl to get a share. Declare independence and issue a new Scottish pound – and take advantage of the powers and freedoms an MMT based economy can undoubtedly create. Or declare independence and join the EU and Euro – but this is NOT a fiat currency – and we’re back to the same arrangements as before, except our parters now number twenty seven instead of three, with all the attendant risks and complications. My preference would be for the second option.
This was an excellent election result in Scotland and it’s given a sense of hope and self belief. Try and familiarise yourself with MMT and currency expansion and you’ll realise that creating money isn’t a problem for any sovereign country. What do you think QE was?
Brexit was about having the fiscal freedom to exploit currency expansion – but the UK government will never come clean about its ability to use these arrangements – how on earth do they explain away the poverty and austerity they’ve enforced on the country since 2008? The government created well over £200bn by doing nothing more than pressing a few keys on a computer – then transferred the money to the banks to lend to us at interest. Fractional multipliers increased the amount of cash exponentially = more interest and profit – which the banks then kept to restore their capital reserves.
The reality is that the UK and many other fiat currency nations have been using their own MMT fiscal rules for decades. The USA would simply print dollars and ship them out in crates to Afghanistan or Iraq to help fund the illegal wars. Japan has issued currency this way for years, confounding neoliberal economists who assume rampant inflation and collapse would follow. It doesn’t.
Interesting times.
The USA can print money because the US$ is the world reserve currency. It is backed by Saudi oil and US military power. Anyone who steps out of line gets hit where it hurts. See Iraq and Libya for modern examples. At the moment they are sizing up Russia – but that don’t look too promising. The blood of the foreign man is US MMT writ large. If they get it wrong with regard to Russia then the blood of the US man will also be US MMT writ large.
For the moment a few favored nations get to play their own junior version of MMT whilst hiding under the US security umbrella.
At some point all of this will end for the simple reason that that which cannot go on forever will not go on forever.
You want to know what MMT looks like absent US military protection? Check out Zimbabwe
Absent military protection? No – without fiscally responsible rues. Printing money with no purpose is just stupid – like Mugabe discovered. It’s only a worthless piece of paper or illusionary number on a computer screen, unless there’s a functioning economy to support it. Zimbabwe made several errors – not least the land clearances that decimated food production and employment and later Mugabe’s excess – but in the early days these fiscal instruments served the country very well.
We have to change the way we live urgently – governments don’t pollute; people do. Two hundred years ago, the world population was 1 billion – one hundred years later, it had risen to 1.8 billion. Today it approaches 7 billion. There are two critical issues – restoring the environment and population control. Our present system operates strict Keynesian doctrine and facilitates war, famine & disease to limit our growth – and wealth – whilst rewarding those who maintain the status quo.
MMT offers a radical economic solution – but it has to be used wisely and for the two issues noted above.
“The government created well over £200bn by doing nothing more than pressing a few keys on a computer – then transferred the money to the banks to lend to us at interest”
Mark, banks don’t get money from somewhere (eg customers or the government) and then lend it to borrowers.
Whenever a bank makes a loan, it simply credits the borrower’s account with a deposit, creating money out of thin air.
(The stuff about “fractional multipliers” etc. is all nonsense. But your main point is very good)
My apologies – I meant to say a digital transfer. The point is that it doesn’t originate from another government account holding funds.
The establishment groupthink that Labour must revert to the extreme centre ignores the fact that even last night Corbyn won more votes than Blair did in 2005, Brown in 2010 or Miliband in 2015. Outside of 10 Downing Street, the PLP and the establishment media there is scant evidence of an appetite for the Labour moderate offering of austerity and war.
All these unscrupulous enemies of truth and justice will also arraign against Scottish independence. Both the left and Scotland must fight the devils hard. For as the devils themselves say, There Is No Alternative.
‘major effort will therefore be to change Labour back into a party supporting neo-liberal economic policy and neo-conservative foreign (or rather war) policy.’
Already happening with this very poisonous person Margaret Hodge staging her anger and blaming a ‘failure of leadership’.
I haven’t seen any failure of leadership. The sheep keep repeating this idea. I haven’t seen any lack of charisma or credibility? All I have seen is a mass of vultures constantly seeking to undermine that leadership.
Take a look at what Donald Trump is up against with regard to the “mass of vultures” seeking to undermine his leadership – and yet… Then compare and contrast that with the relatively mild opprobrium heaped on Corbyn.
“Aint it hard when you discover that, he really wasn’t where it’s at”
Loony,
the real left and conservatives in the US concur that Russiagate in the US is a steaming pile of BS promoted by almost all their MSM. Where did that BS begin?…. Ex MI6 agent Steele. The issue over there is mono and fully debunked – Trump is encouraging an empeachment trial as he knows with Barr on his side he is immune from the Democrats’ delirium.
The hysterical multi-channel attacks on Corbyn are far worse: c.f. Margaret Hodge – “You’re a f****** antisemite and a racist…You have proved you don’t want people like me in the party.” – The Independent 18-07-2018.
Also – BBC 25-02-2018 – “The Czechoslovak spy who met Jeremy Corbyn” rebutted – “The GREENHOUSE mystery solved, and the Corbyn frenzy dying down in London, I boarded a train back to Prague.”
Don’t worry though just today the JC has this “Prime Minister Corbyn would be bad for Israel, bad for Britain and bad for the West
What is bad for the world’s only Jewish state is bad for the West in general, writes William Shawcross” that’s ok then. However ”
Scared of Corbyn? As a black Jewish woman I’m terrified of Johnson Nadine Batchelor-Hunt” – Guardian – “So that is why I am voting Labour. It has been based on the fact that Labour has admitted fault on the issue of antisemitism and begun to reform in a way that the Conservative party has not.”
And the express just a few weeks ago – “The communist Jeremy Corbyn would destroy the UK, says TIM NEWARK” – including “That means our nest-eggs would be open to being pillaged by Marxists as soon as Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell walk into Downing Street. Ruinously low interest rates over the last decade have meant that many of us have had to shift their life-time savings into buying rental property.” – hows your portfolio doing mate?
The trolling and propaganda aganst Corbyn is off the scale.
I find it curious that the wolves have turned on Jeremy Corbyn. His policies are said to have cost him the election. How can his policies have cost the election, when apart from activists and relatively few interested parties, no one knew his policies? The 80% of the media owned and controlled by billionaire Tories – plus the BBC whose pro-Conservative bias is now no longer a matter for debate – made sure that as far as the public were concerned, Jeremy Corbyn’s policies involved ‘Kill all Jews’, ‘Tax everyone until they bleed’ and ‘Give the IRA medals’.
Anyone pointing out that Jeremy Corbyn is not a racist, not an anti-Semite and that his policies were in fact economically sound, was drowned out by the right-wing mob.
This isn’t ‘democracy’, any more than the referendum result was ‘democracy’. You can’t have democracy if lying to gain power is not only possible, but official policy.
Yeah it must be the media. That would be the same media that loathe Trump and idolize the EU in equal measure.
Aint it funny how media animus toward both Trump and Brexit has been so unsuccessful in changing peoples minds, and yet they have found it so very easy to indoctrinate people against Jeremy Corbyn.
There’s a difference Loony. When the media talk about Trump and Brexit they’re talking to people who hate them and aren’t listening to them. When they talk about Corbyn they’re talking to people who love them and are.
Loony, see above. George Burns is entirely correct.
Great comments, Craig — I can tell they’re great because they chime so harmoniously with my own…
The one thing I sort of disagree with is that there’s even a slight possibility that the SNP will go down the road you suggest, withdrawing MPs, holding an informal referendum, and declaring UDI. It’s so unlikely I can’t even respond to the suggestion with any seriousness.
The big mistake that the SNP made in this campaign was to fudge the issues. You can’t argue that it was all about independence when you are going around on a bus that has “Stop Brexit” on the sides. This will come back to haunt them (I said all this the day the SNP outlined their fudged manifesto) and it’s the very typical hedging of bets stuff that Sturgeon is famous for and represents.
Sturgeon and the SNP measure success in terms of votes and seats within the confines of a system that they claim to want to leave. The contradiction in that is obvious.
If you assume the SNP are basically managing Scotland on behalf of the British state, things are easier to see and work out. That’s the defacto relationship that exists in reality, rather than a dejure one, whether we like it or not.
In terms of going forward, my guess is Boris will offer Scotland the same sort of deal NI is getting. This would probably defuse the anti-Brexit feeling in Scotland and undermine the case for independence. It would probably also suit politicians in NI and would be a huge boon to Scottish economic prospects.
Nobody will admit it right now, but I think most people in Scotland would be happy with the outcome or solution I’ve outlined above, including many SNP voters.
Yes maybe Scotland should ask for the same deal as NI, staying in the EU Customs Union.
The problem with that solution, Hatuey, is that Brexit was not a one-off: the plundering of the oil and gas was, arguably, even worse for Scotland in terms of being asset-stripped. Brexit will not be the end of the impositions on Scotland, so either we end this very soon or we go on and face similar catastrophes along the way to extinction – because extinction of Scotland is the ultimate goal. It kind of has to be if you work it all out. Without Scotland – or should I say, Scotland’s resources and strategic geo-political situation, there can be no world stage future for England unless England itself wants to take all the risks it is happy to impose on us. Even then, it has scarce resources, so ours will be needed, and why pay to import something when you can just take it gratis. I doubt that England will want to relocate Trident either because that is what colonies are for, and, boy, are we a colony now. This will not stop till we stop it, and if the SNP becomes the problem rather than the means to the solution, it will be pushed aside and something far less amenable and far more hard-line will take its place.
Hold it just a minute – SNP have 45% of the vote in yesterdays election so in my mind that makes 55% who didn’t vote for them and I suspect not even all of the 45% would vote to leave the UK – Independence was a nice idea back in 2014 then in 2015 an oil crash came which would have wiped out much of the tax revenue Salmon was expecting to run Scotland on. He wanted to keep the Pound Sterling too, but that was never going to happen. So if Scotland leave the UK and eventually join the Eu, under strict conditions, one of them will be taking up the Euro and another would be a Customs Union and customs points with England. None of this seems to have been thought through very much by Mrs Sturgeon, oh well nice try.
Can you name one government ever, I mean ever as in all history, that secured more than 50% of the vote and satisfied your child-like understanding of parliamentary democracy?
Okay, so it might be an idea to fuck off.
Hatuey – you seemed a bit perturbed by post. My analysis of yesterday’s voting patterns north of the border was to show that there probably isn’t a majority of the Scottish population who would vote for Scottish Independence assuming that those in favour have voted for the SNP and as they didn’t secure a majority of the vote, they would be unlikely to obtain a win in a simple majority referendum. Maybe you have other views but expressing them in the infantile manner you chose is hardly going to convince anyone of your world view. I realise you may be upset by this reality but there it is. If you wish to FO then that is up to you. Have a nice evening.
You make the elemental mistake of thinking Scottish independence is just the SNP!
Then should we have referendums on it every year until the “correct” answer is found just as some wanted for Brexit ? In their heart of hearts, Scots know what side the bread is buttered on and are unlikely to want financial suicide just so they could be run from Edinburgh (and then Brussels) instead of London.
Billy, your comment revealed your stupidity. In 2013 support for independence was polling around 25%. By sept 2014 it was 45%. If it’s polling at around 50% today, and it is, then we can assume it would increase.
I’m done with idiots. Leave me alone.
You need to stay off the internet for a while and chill out, go for long walks and leave your phone at home. SNP are not going to get another referendum in the foreseeable future, get used to the new reality, Boris is in da house.
It’s hard to get every sentence in a post completely wrong but hey well done. I doubt reading this post that it is the first time you have achieved this feat.
Some people just can not accept reality, mental illness lies in wait for them. Scotland is staying in the UK for at least the next five years, live with it.
Billy Brexit
You must be a rich man since you claim to be able to forecast the future.
Best change your name to Nostradamus.
Sadly it is people like you who are in denial and are struggling to cope with reality.
I am sure that those who helped the BBC and the liars of the israeli embassy, hallo Shai Masot, will also help ol Billiy Ball here to frustrate and set alight the sectarian sections that accomplish their unionist dreams.
It was the BBC and people like Margaret Hodge who won it for the simple slogan wielding de Pfeffel Johnsons.
I think the SNP and Labour should adopt a simple slogan from across the pond…BUILD THAT WALL….Independence by a fair observed votes…or UDI.
What about the Scots that want to stay in the union?
In the 2014 Referendum a massive 23.7% more people wanted to remain in the union than leave.
Remain: 2,000,1926 – 55.3%
Leave: 1,617,989 – 44.7%
Turnout: 84.6%
So..What About The Lies We Were Told in oor 2014 indy ref…That the bbC Forced through..as did the Daily Records ‘ VOW ‘ Lie
What about?
Have the lies now finished? Depending which side tells the lies, does that make them good or bad lies?
Are you proposing that lies should not be told or if they are the public should not believe then?
And if the public are told the truth they should believe it without challenge?
The vote was held, a massive majority chose to remain in the union, they may be very stupid people to believe the lies but they voted the way they did for their own reasons.
Or are you proposing that the “right” outcome is mandated because the public are too stupid to make the right decision?
If lying is what you need to get into a position of power, the normal genetically engrained way for unionist to operate, than don’ expect your petty 23.7% to be taken for full.
Just because you are acustomed to being led by luars does not mean that this is the new normal means of discourse.
The indigenous Scots won the 2014 referendum, PB. I use the word ‘indigenous’ in the sense that it is used by the United Nations: those born in Scotland. Without the votes of rUK residents and EU residents and others, the Scottish (indigenous) NO voters could not possibly have won. That is undeniable fact, sir. The UN Charter on Self-determination makes it clear that indigenous peoples must not be thwarted in their pursuit of self-determination by in-coming voters whose allegiances might lie elsewhere, specifically with the territory from which the indigenous people wish to secede/to leave. Colonial unscrupulous behaviour is not liked, PB. That is why the EU residents’ denial of a vote in 2016 was not deemed to be illegal. According to international mores, the indigenous people of the UK were entitled to vote for/against Brexit without influence from EU nationals. Yes, it was rather illiberal, but it is more understandable when you can appreciate the principle behind it: it is aimed at preventing illiberal colonials from stymieing an indigenous vote. It would be absurd and against human rights for rUK voters in Scotland to be denied the vote in a referendum on independence, but, nevertheless, they ought to be made aware that a knee-jerk, self-interested NO vote is not cricket.
Your numbers don’t make sense — 23.7% of what? The unionist vote? You’re an idiot.
The number of voters who voted Leave was
1,617,989
The number that voted to Remain was
2,001,926
383,937 more people voted Remain than Leave
That is 23.7% more people voted Remain than Leave
PB sorry but no one voted to LEAVE. The UK would be terminated. The Treaty of Union 1707 is a bi partite Treaty.
You are conflating leaving the EU which is a Union of 28 countries which would still exist after the UK left. If Scotland or England terminate the bi partite Treaty of Union 1707 then the UK ceases to exist – therefore you are not leaving you are terminating/ dissolving the bipartite union.
Splitting hairs will do you no good, the outcome was clear, much clearer than the Eu referendum result. Nearly a quarter more people in Scotland voted to stay a part of the UK than those romantics wanting to leave. I think that is decisive.
Hey Nostradamus
Facts and accuracy are obviously not your strong point.
” Romantics wanting to leave”
Still don’t get it do you – I’ll try again because I like to help out the odd dumb person now and then. It’s a bipartite Union – you don’t leave – it’s finished – get it. There is no Union left.
I totally agree with the predictions here. Though I was wrong about the election, expecting a slight Tory majority or hung parliament.
Its seems clear to me that in the next few years there will be a recession too. Brexit alone is likely to cause one and the problems in the economy were never really fixed after 2008. Asset prices have become too high again and will correct in the next few years. Though the media never seem to criticise the Tories over the economy. I guess they will say that Brexit is worth the pain, though still I don’t see any benefit from it.
Then the UK will be ready for Tony Blair 2.
Things certainly do seem to run round in circles in these Isles – maybe there’s never an escape from them?
Glad to see Swinton, Soubry and Ommuna given the order of the boot but very sorry that Dennis Skinner went the same way. A Left-wing leaver in a left-wing leaver constituency but sadly shackled by a ludicrous manifesto.
Dennis Skinner donated a year’s salary to the 1984-5 miners’ strike fund. Shame on all those ex-miners in Bolsover who turned against him and voted for Tory disaster capitalism.
They’re a disgrace.
Fair play to Dennis Skinner, he has given good service however like several others such as Ken Clark and Nicholas Soames and indeed Jeremy Corbyn, they have been playing the politics game for a very long time and it would be good if they went back into the real world and do a proper job like the population they are supposed to represent. Ideally I would like to see a rule brought in where an MP can only serve a maximum of three terms or fifteen years before having to resign and a ten year period before they can re-apply. I would also allow a public referendum on their pay increases.
Yor forgot Assange. The result is a virtually death sentence for him.
This might well make his situation very much worse, it is true. He could be used as an inducement to trade deals with the US – trade deals, moreover, that will be entirely in the interests of the US.
“If we truly believe Westminster has no right to block Scottish democracy”
Surely no one believes that, not even an Englishman like me. Especially now that English Tory MPs alone number 344.
Besides, the lesson learnt is that you can’t go back on a referendum. So forget having another Scottish referendum.
There is no challenging Johnson while most of Britain want him to get Brexit done (including many who actually voted remain). Pollsters deliberately mislead by counting “who still wants Brexit” when they should have counted who thinks the government has to do it whatever”.
The opportunity comes post Brexit (or post non-Brexit debacle). Then Boris has nothing going for him and the People can speak again, backing Tax and Spend policies like Labours.
But the 2014 referendum was voted on the premise that by being in the UK, we’d be in the EU as well.
Precisely. Which is why we should challenge him, but not by staging another referendum. They are a recipe for disaster in the hands of any part of the UK and should be avoided. Resiling the Treaty is the only option. As for waiting till after Brexit, aye, that’ll do it. Cemented into the one nation state of the right-wing UK. I think not, MD.
“The SNP result gave them a bigger voter share in Scotland than the Tories got in the UK.”
Let me rephrase that.
“The SNP result gave them a smaller voter share in Scotland than the Tories got in England & Wales”.
It’s not a referendum dumbo.
It’s Westminster’s electoral system. First pass the post. SNP got over 80 % of the seats in Scotland.
The Britnats are always wanting to change the rules when they lose.
@Craig in an earlier thread in answer to @Angryoldlabour, regarding people’s voting choices in “Leave” seats in areas such as “Bury, Redcar, Bolsover, Ipswich, Bridgend etc.”:
“(P)eople who are not thick as pigshit realise that Brexit is not the only issue in the world.”
Yes indeed, and well put. Similarly people in Scotland who are not as thick as pigshit don’t think “Sindy” is the only issue in the world either.
Yet an increasing number in Scotland (still thankfully a minority) do feel that way. The other day I was reading about the evil bashing to death of baby seagulls in Sula Sgeir – a carnage akin to the battering of baby seals – and how one local idiot had attempted to justify it on the grounds that he didn’t want “people in England who eat turkey at Christmas” to tell him what to do. If that man isn’t as thick as pigshit then who is? He’s just like the many people in Britain who can’t stop going on about “the P*kis” all the time.
Statements such as “Westminster has no right to block Scottish democracy” are of the same ilk. More people in Scotland vote in Westminster elections than in Holyrood elections.
The middle class bigot in the freemasonic lodge is only a thug from the football terraces wearing an apron, even if he thinks of himself as highly educated, sophisticated, and not at all “vulgar”. The Tory golf club car salesman type driving his BMW is only a BNPer in aftershave.
“(W)e need urgently to act to that effect and not just pretend to believe it.””
Pretend to believe something? Now who would do that? LOL
“Now the election is over, I will state my genuine belief there is a political class in the SNP, Including a minority but significant portion of elected politicians, office holders and staff, who are very happy with their fat living from the devolution settlement and who view any striking out for Independence as a potential threat to their personal income.”
Among those who are filling their corrupt pockets from the “devolution settlement” and from SNP rule in the “big town hall” – in other words, among local government crooks who either belong to, or are in with, the same political Partei – many are in favour of independence. True, they’re only in favour of it so long as it doesn’t jeopardise their moneygrabbing: that’s quite clear from how they whinge that England (“Westminster”) is denying them this that and the other, and how they’ve got such a huge mandate for another referendum, and so on, but at the same time they haven’t got the GUTS to risk all the money they’re pocketing from their corrupt administration by calling for a new Holyrood election to see if they could win a majority for pro-independence parties – and they could call for such an election any time they wanted.
Do left wing people reading this actually realise just how dangerous the growth of a “foreigners won’t let us do stuff” myth is?
Do those left wing internationalists who support the SNP “for the time being”, dreaming of forming a new party as soon as independence has been achieved, realise that on independence day those in the SNP who are NOT at all left wing or internationalist would attempt to turn the tables on them?
They would be able to utilise the state machinery (contrary to lies, nationalism essentially about the state), and they would attempt to marginalise them even more than they’re marginalised at the moment, without so much as a “thank you” for any physical support they have offered. Meanwhile, many among those who had thought of themselves as leftwing would desert the left and openly join the right. Fascism in Europe often recruited many of its militants and its voters from among former leftwingers.
The alliance between the exploited and exploiters that all nationalism entails is always a con.
“(T)he emergency of the empowered Johnson government, and the new mandate from the Scottish electorate, require immediate and resolute action. We need to organise an Independence referendum with or without Westminster permission, and if successful go straight for UDI. If the referendum is blocked, straight UDI it is, based on the four successive election victory mandates. (…) With this large Tory majority, there is nothing the SNP MPs can in practice achieve against Westminster. We should now withdraw our MPs from the Westminster Parliament and take all actions to paralyse the union. This is how the Irish achieved Independence. We will never get Independence by asking Boris Johnson nicely. Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is a fool or a charlatan.”
The setting up of the Irish Free State was achieved by violent conflict and by a land settlement wherein the government in Dublin would tax the Irish population in the 26 counties, and also borrow money, in order to fund “redemption” payments which would continue to be paid to the British state which would dole out the money to huge landowners who lost land for 50 years, until 1971 to be precise. There was basically a government of rent collectors. As it turned out, the Rothschilds bought up the debt – in 1936 if I recall.
Who are this “we” anyway? Most Scots don’t want independence. Most Irish people did.
Other points…
“(Johnson’s) Brexit deal will take years and be overwhelmingly fashioned to benefit the City of London.”
What deal? We will certainly have a cliffedge moment, whether it takes the form of a rapid end to the Brexit transition period without a sufficiently comprehensive trade agreement, or a “Lehmans” event 10 or 100 times the magnitude of 2008 in which the European Central Bank chooses not to bail out the EU’s former member, or some other form. Then there will be something much worse than continuing economic decay – it will be more like the Armageddon that has long featured in below-the-surface Tory thought. Britain is in the rifle sights of international financial capital as the first “advanced” country to get Greeced, Venezuelaed, Zimbabwed – pick the analogy.
“So if Johnson got a ‘stonking mandate for Brexit’, as he just claimed in his private school idiom, the SNP got a ‘stonking mandate’ for Independence.”
This reminds me very much of the traditional notion that “Our Scottish shit shits all over your English shit”.
But sh*t is sh*t and it stinks, whoever’s a*se it’s come out of. Boris Johnson did NOT get a mandate for Brexit, and the SNP didn’t get a mandate for independence. A majority in Britain voted for parties which are NOT in favour of Brexit, at least not without a second EU referendum; and a majority in Scotland voted for parties which are OPPOSED to Scottish independence.
“We need to organise an Independence referendum with or without Westminster permission, and if successful go straight for UDI. If the referendum is blocked, straight UDI it is, based on the four successive election victory mandates.”
This is the Catalan road, and it’s a road that rabid nationalists would love because they’d discourage unionists from voting in their kangaroo referendum and then they would claim that they have a huge mandate. That’s what happened in Catalonia. It’s little short of fascism. It’s as if the desire is to have some Scottish heads smashed in so they can claim some martyrs and go around waving a Blood Flag. Always, always, no matter what the reality, the idiotic moronic cry has to be that the English don’t let the Scottish do stuff. Truth goes completely out of the window. I suspect many people in Scotland don’t even know that the SNP lost its majority at Holyrood in the only Holyrood election there has been since the indyref. Any local SNP apparatchiks and troughers that they meet won’t bring it to their attention either. Said apparatchiks and troughers don’t distinguish between “We, Scotland” and “We, the Partei”.
Whilst nationalists are clearly on the march north of the border, the Scottish government has not adopted the suicidal Catalan road as its programme yet, so such an adoption is not an immediate problem. The British government, on the other hand, IS hell-bent on proceeding to Brexit by the end of next month. What should we do about it? Well, we should ignore those who only want to use opposition to Brexit as grist for a Scottish nationalist mill. They are cut of the same xenophobic cloth as Brexiters. What we should shout from the rooftops is THERE IS NO MANDATE FOR BREXIT. There was some kind of mandate, 3.5 years ago, but we are not living 3.5 years ago, and even if there were a mandate for Brexit there should still be a referendum on the detailed deal that’s on offer, because, hey, let’s play along with the idea that this is really about Britain’s trading relationships with its neighbours rather than the racist notion that there are too many Pakistanis, blacks and Poles and Romanians in the country, which is patently f***ing obviously what it is really about.
We need a campaign of civil disobedience to force another Brexit referendum.
How about many of the millions of people who were so brave as to click on an internet petition in favour of another Brexit referendum withhold their council tax, or draw some money out of their bank accounts all on the same day, or something like that? In short, STOP BREXIT.
There is so much wrong with that analysis that it’s hard to know where to begin. Brexit has been lost. There will be no second referendum. There never really was the slightest chance that there would be, not really. I very doubt that there will be a second Scottish referendum either, although I freely admit I could be wrong. We will have to take an alternative route to independence. What is not in doubt, however much you try to swerve towards the old socialist mantra about internationalism (you must always start with nationalism as the premise for internationalism, but you know that; it’s just Scottish nationalism you have a problem with) is that you need two to tango. I don’t doubt for a moment that, if Westminster decided to give all four parts of the UK total parity in all international affairs, defence, etc., Full FA for all four, and a voice on Brexit, we could achieve what you want to achieve and you might be able to reverse Brexit and have a Union built on absolute equality. That is as much pie in the sky as your theories. Real internationalism will be the order of the day when all nations come together willingly to form a world union based on parity, equality and equity, when they are willing and happy to pool all their resources and assets for the common good. Not before then. So, when you leave England intact, but Scotland trying to get up off the floor, all you prove is that you are, at best, a British Nationalist, and, at worst, an English Nationalist. You cannot stop Brexit now unless you want another English civil war (there have already been so many). You could never have stopped Brexit except, perhaps, by a tiny window of opportunity right after the result when the cowardly Westminster MPs were just too cojone-less to say to the electorate that they would debate Brexit, taking the result into consideration. That would have required b***s, but no English MP wanted to be deselected or to lose his or her seat by telling the electorate the truth about what Brexit would entail and that it was all a Tory wheeze to placate its own party. How dare you suggest that the Scots who have fought long and hard for independence should sit back and allow you and them to shaft us all over again. Take a running jump, N. Wot, no name?
Agree with much of this.
1. Agree that the deluded in the small left behind towns will only be further damaged but it will take a while for the penny to drop that no jam will be coming their way. Could be beyond next election before it dawns on them.
2. Disagree about the nurses. The NHS is the biggest crisis the government faces because it can’t be hidden, unlike his deregulation plans which effects might not be noticed for years. So in order to gain quick popularity, investing in more nurses makes sense as it keeps the hoi polloi on board and ensures a second Tory victory in five years time.
3. Not sure about the SNP stonking mandate for independence as many voters lent SNP their vote as the best of the lot but remain uncertain about Scotland’s prospects as an independent country. I’m sure they can be won round, their heart is already in it, but we can’t take their support for granted.
I have heard it rumoured that now that Boris has his majority he has more options on Brexit and may be less reliant on the nutters in his party. That will of course depend on what new nutters have entered his party, but the possibility of a less severe Brexit is theoretically there. We will know very soon if his Brexit bill goes through in its current state. So there is some wisdom in waiting to see what transpires on that front.
The Labour Party should now reform and expel all the Blairites and right wingers go back to their roots and there original manifesto a bloodless revolution and change the establishment disown all those traitors who accepted lordships etc., and become a real ordinary working people’s party no lawyer or doctors or business people MPs just MPs who come from the working class: bus drivers, street sweepers, miners etc., ordinary people to represent ordinary people. There are too many people hiding in the Labour Party who do not belong there and never have done; weed them out, expose them if you need the advice of lawyers etc. You can hire them so they will be your employees doing as you tell them. Labour this is your chance to change things
if you rely on a wage or salary to live you are working-class,the job title is meaningless.
Final result of yesterday’s election of MPs from Scotland:
pro-independence: SNP 45.0% + Greens 1.0% = 46.0%
pro-union: Con 25.1% + Lab 18.6% + LibDems 9.5% + Brexit Party 0.5% = 53.8%
WINNER: keep Scotland in the union
Final result, whole of Britain:
pro-Brexit without another referendum: Con 43.6% + Brexit Party 2.0% = 45.6%
pro-Revoke or pro-People’s Vote (i.e. not in favour of Brexit without another referendum): Lab 32.2% + LibDems 11.5% + SNP 3.9% + Greens 2.7% = 50.3%
I have not taken account of NI parties because I haven’t studied all of their positions, but clearly the result is as follows:
WINNER: do not proceed to Brexit without another referendum.
I would question that all 32.2% of Labour supporters are in favor of staying in the Eu. However it is all academic now as BoJo is unlikely to make the same mistake as David Cameron in asking the public’s opinion on anything ever again considering the upset the last referendum caused.
N-
All opinion polls that break down by party have since 2014 shown that a minimum of 30% and usually around 40% of Labour voters in Scotland support independence. You are engaged in a pointless exercise. If you actually believed there was a unionist majority, you would not be so vehemently opposed to a referendum.
https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/W1781w23-Tables-for-publication-221119.pdf
Q6. 49% of then intending Labour voters, 16% LibDem, 3% Tory, 94% SNP. Some will have moved over to vote for the SNP.
N please pay close attention. It was not a referendum.