The enormous economic impact of the reaction to Covid-19 is plain for all to see. The effect on economies – which had barely recovered to 2008 levels after the great Banker Theft crisis – is enormous. You cannot just close down businesses and expect them all to restart three months later. Plus the hit to personal finances is going to result in a huge and lasting reduction in consumer demand, exaggerated by what I predict will be a much higher propensity to save against future disaster. Even optimistic economists are expecting a 15% drop in GDP and slow recovery. At recent levels it is going to take some seven years of compound economic growth to recover that.
I always argued that England and Wales should leave the EU as had been democratically decided by the electorate, and an Independent Scotland should not as similarly decided. My personal enthusiasm for the EU’s political institutions disappeared after their enthusiastic backing for the repression in Catalonia. But I also always believed, and still believed, that a hard Brexit was madness and that a Norway or Switzerland style relationship made sense – which approximates fairly well to the position the UK currently is in until the transition period ends at the turn of the year.
To leave the EU customs union and single market will be a massive short term economic dislocation. Even to consider doing this on top of the economic crisis caused by the reaction to Covid-19 ought to be unthinkable and I suspect that it is. There is no way that the UK can crash out of the single market in January 2021 in these circumstances, and I suspect that even this Westminster government may be forced to admit that soon.
I might add that the government measures to alleviate the economic impact of covid-19 in the UK are going to run aground in a fog of inertia, largely as the result of the UK having crippled its own bureaucratic machine though a decade of extreme cuts to staffing and capabilities. I myself tried to organise a COVID business interruption loan for the music festivals, and after many hours of effort was finally told by Natwest Bank that the regulations state that:
1) If the bank would normally grant the loan on commercial terms, it must do so without the government COVID guarantee
2) The bank may not grant the loan unless it would normally do so on commercial terms
Which means it is impossible to get the government’s purported loan guarantee. I assumed this was just Natwest being obstructive, but then I discovered this is precisely what the government scheme says.
Not so much Covid 19 as Covid 22. The actual effect in practice will be that the only people able to access the billions in government guaranteed funds for business interruption will be very wealthy Tory businessmen who don’t actually need the money. The sad thing is, that is not in the least surprising.
One thing of which we can be certain is that the depression will be used by the Tories to bring in another decade of austerity, of further abandonment of the economic potential of the state actor, and of attacks on the living standards of the poorest in society. It is important now to start working on a counter-plan of economic planning and investment to build a fairer and greener economy, with much more localism and resilience, once the current crisis has passed. Here in Scotland, that can show the alternative path which Independence can bring; in the rest of the UK it can bring a new focus for societal resistance to the Tories. Empathy, solidarity, localism and resilience are all virtues that are not valued by neo-liberalism. That society is rediscovering them could yet open the way to a brighter future.
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With the AS story being resurrected in part by Clegg formerly of the Record what are his real connections with the Labour Party and some of the civil servants involved? Why did he move from the DR following his exclusives?
The Tories are of course ideologically wedded to “austerity and further abandonment of the economic potential of the state actor.”
But those are also articles of faith among EU finance ministers, entrenched in the EU’s fiscal compact and in the Lisbon Treaty — a document ratified in order to prevent governments from acting on behalf of society.
Yanis Varoufakis n a video posted on his YouTube channel last week said: “The other day there was a meeting of the European Union’s finance ministers. They decided that coronavirus poses a clear and present danger of a massive recession in Europe. They said it is a highly significant threat to European economies.So much so that the urgency was so great that they decided to do absolutely nothing.
“They decided they are going to monitor the situation and watch. They are on autopilot. They simply follow particular rules that cannot be followed without wrecking our economies. They are talking about doing whatever it takes within the fiscal compact, which means nothing because the fiscal compact is like an iron cage austerity from which you then cannot escape. And you need to escape from an iron cage of austerity if you are going to do anything about the green transition or about dealing with with the wholesale recession that the coronavirus is going to bring again to Europe.”
https://youtu.be/CDah_g3IzyM
On Friday, after the Germans and Dutch obstructed the issuing of Eurobonds to help alleviate the Covid crisis, Varoufakis said:
“I don’t think the EU is capable of doing anything to us other than harm. I opposed Brexit but I have now reached the conclusion the British did the right thing, even if for the wrong reasons.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/03/25/economic-shock-coronavirus-forces-europe-face-hamilton-moment/
If a crisis like this befell an independent Scotland it would be highly irresponsible to be relying on the tender mercies, empathy or solidarity of those (other) arch neoliberals in Brussels and Frankfurt.
Varoufakis is God, isn’t he?
I thought your God was that beloved Bankers’ Boy Emmanuel Macron, the NeoLiberal Dauphin himself.
Do I have a God? That’s news to me. Not like you, to judge from what you say.
No, you’re just being a child. You chose to say I have a God because it hurt to see the pitiless neoliberal nature of the EU spelt out yet again. I’m certainly no devotee of Varoufakis as you are of Emmanuel Macron. I cited him only because he has hitherto supported remaining in the EU despite its fundamentally neoliberal nature and all its callous actions.
@ Jay March 29, 2020 at 14:28
Methinks a number of people will become considerably less flippant regarding God, if they come a cropper with the virus…
“Methinks a number of people will become considerably less flippant regarding God, if they come a cropper with the virus…”
Sadly for all of us on both sides we shall never know.
https://www.facebook.com/Redfishstream/videos/2482790688652618/
“We send doctors not bomb”
Speech by an exceptional leader Fidel Castro
SA
Agreed.
I loved Fidel. Exceptional speaker. Powerful, charismatic leader. Got corrupted. After Russia had withdrawn its support, continued to live in luxury, leaving many Cubans in Cuba to eat grass, literally.
Rubbish
Fidel was never corrupted.
And Cubans never went without food. I’ve studied the country and visited a number of times.
Don’t try and spread fake news on this site.
The worst place in Cuba is Guantanamo Bay and the Cubans don’t run it. I expect they have plans to liberate it from those who do, though, when the world realises it must finally act against the war crimes and mass starvation regime in Washington.
Castro was obviously a good leader.
But was he a leader for good?
Perhaps you should ask some of the people who were on the sharp end of his 50 years of repression. A few critical words overheard by an informer would get you into prison.
I hope this news is true but I doubt it will be enforced all over asia as swiftly as it needs to.
China and Vietnam finally ban wildlife trade due to coronavirus
https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/china-and-vietnam-finally-ban-wildlife-trade-due-to-coronavirus/
I cannot stomach to watch how the animals are treated at these markets.
Yes . Horrible.
@ Jack March 29, 2020 at 14:24
And South Korea’s dog markets need ending too.
Paul Barbara
Yes, it would be great if asia could get rid of those places where tourists can ride on poor elephants, pet caged lions and other maltreated animals.
But our factory farming and trawler fishing, and our porking out on meats every day is alright? Does such hypocrisy really exist? Are the British so blind that all they can do is point their little judgmental fingers elsewhere all the time? You should really just do a little research on how you get your milk and eggs even. You’d be just as horrified as you claim to be at the treatment of animals in the savage-occupied lands of the now-defunct Great British empire? Honestly?!
Marmite
Yes we have problems too you dont need to tell me, but in western markets we dont boil live animals nor cage them with a short leash for tourists to come and photograph them, could you not condemn that?
Exactly – the thing about capitalism is that it leaves it’s inhabitants with all these tiny false freedoms, of tiny and insignificant choice, which seem one by one to add up to ‘something’, which falsely persuade them that here is a solution, if only…they could all be as genteel as we
Complaints about Wuhan food markets – ever been inside a chicken factory?
And – When a crisis erupts martial law lockdown arrest on sight – dissent is banned, freedom of speech and opinion turns out to be none
Freedom of choice?
Gerrard White
Yes chicken house is awful but its not from the west all these viruses come from, its from asia where the animal maltreatment is much worse.
Jack…lobsters?
Nick
That is horrible indeed. I raised the issue because its not from the west but from asia these viruses from animal cruely, cooking, is spread.
@Jack
This depends, if you measure the cruelty and the animal suffering – one result (western style animal industry now practiced in China too)
If one looks at how peasant eating habits survive at least the first wave of industrialisation, another, very hard to wipe out thousands of years of overnight-ish
How ever—- bugs are everywhere, no? If not China, why not Africa – as the ‘west’ or capitalism intrudes ever further there get ready for a number of very vicious bugs, along the lines of ebola and worse
What’s the answer? Learn better more robust health and health care systems, rather than trying to kill of all and every bug or known habitats or breeding grounds for
If you study where viruses have spread past couple of decades, it is predominantly from asia. So they obviously do something much much worse than the rest of the world when it comes to animals.
About time too.
Also the killing of sharks for their fins and tigers for some body parts. There’s a long list. Not that the Western method of rearing animals is any better. Chickens in crates. Pigs in small concrete stalls so that piglets can suckle but the mother cannot turn over. Then there’s the export of live sheep to the Middle East.
At the entrance to the industrial estate here, there’s an abbatoir. As you pass by, you cannot avoid the stench. On set days the animal transporters arrive. The cattle peer out of the ventilation slits in the sides of the trucks. The sheep are transported packed in on two levels within the lorry. Quite horrible.
Well, the standards for pig rearing in the UK are way above those in the EU.
mickc,
I totally agree with you and would extend that to the way animals in general are treated in the EU. France and Spain still teach young boys to become matadors, letting them practice on small bulls, in readiness for the disgusting theatre that is the Corrida.
I have recently withessed the sale of live animals in French markets, chickens, ducks and geese in small cages in the blistering heat, fish flapping away on a steel shelf, suffocating in Libourne market. The EU turns a blind eye to illegal Bluefin Tuna and Swordfish netting in the Med.
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/opinion/2011/10/11/getting-serious-about-illegal-tuna-fishing-in-the-mediterranean
@Jack
It’s not a question of awarding points for better or worse, both systems, chicken industry etc or wild meat market are cruel to the animals, human health is hardly great under either system, is fragile in consequence to such cruelty
The point is bugs are everywhere – instead of pointing fingers better to improve health at home
If we want to end these deadly diseases we must be honest where they originate from.
Turning a blind eye will only generate far deadlier viruses in the near future.
Who do you think is turning ‘ a blind eye’ to the origins of this latest bug? Surely everyone has heard of Wuhan
If this bug came from Wuhan, it is also true other bugs exist in other places
There may be an almost endless supply
It is not ignoring the origin of the bug which provides the production of others, it is what who can do about it – besides the Chinese Koreans Taiwanese seem to have dealt with the bug rather better than say the Europeans, and appears to have been rather less deadly than panic stations predicted
If you think that some scrabbled together World Authority will manage to impose on China an authoritative and infallible program which will prevent viruses either coming into existence, mutating, or spreading, I suggest you are over optimistic
You can not test all the people all the time- What does that remind you of?
Besides, there are bugs all over Asia and Africa and….South America, is the reach of an anti virus Commission to be extended?
Sort out your own health and shore up your immunity systems before you go poking to control the affairs of far off countries
Oh and while you are at it why not try to improve industrial agriculture at home, that might improve your health too
Gerrad White
Yes everyone have heard about Wuhan, now it is time fro China to stop these type of eating habits and markets once and for all.
@Jack
So who is going to get China to change China eating habits? It would seem they are not doing so, despite repeated bugs
The US, the UK, a new Holy Alliance, a re invigorated WHO?
In any case there are many other bugs in many other parts of the world – it would be impractical to ignore these while enforcing a new régime on China
It would be more useful if your remarks were realist and practical, or at least within the reach of reason
Let he who lives in a glass …..You should restrict your solutions to those who panic and die, much better attend to your own affairs than the affairs of others
Gerrad White
Two alternatives, either China understand this themselves and act or some kind of curbing by the rest of the world.
Viruses are everywhere, these pandemics originate from asian nations, that is the issue.
If virus originate from UK once and again you would not be here arguing “but look at asia! look at asia!”.
@Jack
‘Some kind of curbing’? Please be more precise : you seriously recommending this policy solution? You are urging curbing?
Now : why do you think these bugs have been emanating from Asia so consistently over the last 60 or more years – you have managed to do anything about it -but the Asians who are not much dying they have
So what is the solution – remain unprepared as you have been for the last 60 or so years, or change what you can change? i.e. you yourself, if say, like the Asians, you think you should, and this may well afford you protection
It’s not them dying in large numbers, it’s you – from which you may understand that they know what they are doing, and that you do not
It’s un useful to argue that as you do not know what you are doing nor can imagine how to, those who do know should change, but not you
Gerrard White
Since the pandemic has not ended its too premature to talk about which curbing must be done.
Of course the rest of the world will take measures if the asians do not change their ways, that goes without saying.
If there is a problem, you try to solve it, not turning a blind eye to it due any ideological reason.
If pandemics originated from the UK every time there was a pandemic outbreak in this world, you wouldnt not criticize asians that were worried about UK’s eating habits.
@Jack
what good is ‘criticising’ China eating habits going to do, may make you feel good inside,will not cure you, & why should they pay you any attention
You are the ones who do not know how to deal with bugs, not them : in other words they have a solution, you do not, but you want them to try out something you can not nor do not know how to do, and all you can do is ask them please, accept there’s little reason or chance they will listen, although they may be polite about it
Not so long there was a bug from Africa which got you panicked, did your criticisms of African eating habits have any effect
You prepared for the next Ebola outbreak? why not – or the next covid?
I suggest you think that reasonable action is to think up your own solution for yourself
You can imitate the Chinese crack down, but so far your efforts to imitate martial law etc have been less than effective : you may prefer to imitate Korea track and test, but are you capable of such foresight, efficiency and discipline?
You may like to upgrade your health care systems – that at least can do no harm
Perhaps you’d do better to consider that it is your own vulnerability and inadequacy which leaves you such a weak victim
Start with looking into your own health and how to better it
Of course the world need to criticize China so they change their ways, again, this is the alternative or the rest of the world will curb it to their best of their abilities, that could be banning chinese travellers for one. That is something we can do here as you yourself proclaim is the right way to go.
@Jack
You are going to ban Chinese travel? When you are very nearly totally dependent on Chinese manufacturing?( I’ll not even mention how much you depend on China tourism)
If you try this you will weaken your economies perhaps fatally, and certainly impact China, but merely encourage China to re align major trade routes to rest of Asia and Africa, at your expense and their overall immense gain
You need China much more than China needs you
Your solution is not only worse than the problem but many times worse – you prefer to commit suicide to finding a solution to what is killing you
If you know you do not know what to do, at least you can start to think, but you….
Yes banning travellers is one way to persuade China (and any other country) that refuse to stem these threats to mankind. You have said it yourself that we shouldnt deal with China but only our own country, protecting our borders is one thing countries could use.
On the economic tip you forget the manufactors in China. They are dependent on the west.
Manufactors need buyers, its not a zero sum game, Africa or the rest of asia cannot fill that void if west would be kicked out,
You dont realize how much China is loosing right now because of the pandemic? Alot of heavy industry in that country have been stalled.
You seems to argue that China do not want to stop these pandemics to spread from China?
You are a weak largely de industrialised economy dependent on others for, very largely, for manufacturing, yet you think this puts you in a superior position? (Likewise tourism)
Even for essential pharma – as you have just learned from this crisis
This is foolish – this is pretending that weakness is strength
Reconfiguration by China to serve and expand other markets will cause China some short term pain only (besides trade will continue, a lot will be re exports of irresistible goods via third countries)
But do you not think that the rest of the world is a bigger place than your small part? Your part is declining, has been for a long time, the rest of the world is expanding, has been for some time : this crisis is part of the proof
China can control and or adapt it’s export markets, for you to re tool manufacturing is a very much more difficult proposition
China can deal with the virus, it is you that can not
Preventing a bug from travelling, let’s say just one bug or one infected person, or a small group, such as was the origin of the last ebola outbreak, is a biological and logical impossibility : in any case case bugs are smart, they’ll not flourish (that means kill) in strong populations, they’ll flourish is weak, like your’s, you are perfect to prey on
Stop bugs from China killing quite so many of you, stop bugs from Africa, SAmerica, ditto
Get a grip on yourself rather than whining about other countries – maybe you’ll survive until the next bug gets you
You miss that China need buyers,
look at which markets the China want to be part of, that is developed nations in the west. By kicking out west, China will lose too.
Its not a zero sum game where China is somehow superior in the relationship, they are dependent on markets, these are in west, they are dependent on clients they are also predominately in the west – that buy they services, products from China.
You have yet you respond to as to why you reject the idea that China themselves wouldnt stem viruses spreading from their own nation, industries are stalled. You mean China are unable to change?
I am not sure why you call me myopic when I talk about china vs the rest of the world.
I am also intrested to hear what should be done to curb this rest of the world from pandemics from China. How should we act? What should we do to stop a similar asian pandemic to hit us again?
@Jack
The consumer is dependent on the producer
Current consumption is largely ‘the west’ – this is set to decline, while consumption in the rest of the world is set massively to increase, China can easily replace any lost markets while taking only a short term loss –
I have told you this many times, you appear not to understand anything about the world outside
It is impossible to prevent viruses travelling, the last ebola outbreak involved a very small group of travelers
It is also for the Chinese un necessary – they can limit the outcome for themselves – it you who dies not them, for you do not know how to deal with the bug
You ask what can be done about bugs incoming from China, Africa, and so on- I have told you repeatedly : get to grips with your health, track and test, prepare reserves of medical equipment
All that you do not do, through laziness greed or stupidity, now learn how to do
That’s it – the level of your comments is indeed a good reflection of your general state of knowledge understanding and reactivity
You are what is called a doomed society
You continue to ask why does China not change – I have told you, why should they, they can handle this bug, you cannot, perhaps you amuse them when you panic and die, perhaps not, you certainly give no one any reason to think about you at all
If there is no demand there will be no producer.
Asian nations will be highly affected if China do not curb these pandemics themselves and business ties with China will be affected more than the west itself. You are too focused on the west, this situation is THE REST OF THE WORLD vs CHINA.
Viruses travel yes, the issue here is to stop the pandemics coming out of China. That is two different things. Viruses are everywhere, Pandemics are not everywhere but rare and originate in asia and specifically in China. That is the issue, that is the problem we need to solve.
I still havent got a reply why you somehow believe China do not care.
You imply it is uncessary for China to stop the pandemic. Do you realize how much they lose right now? GDP where set down multple digits.
Testing in the rest of the world wont solve anything because then it is too late, just look at this pandemic, economic crashing all over, people die all over, business going bankrupt, recession, depression perhaps a decade from now. No vaccine
If you look at nations that blocked chinese tourists, they managed this the best.
Simply put, maltreatment and sickening eating habits in small parts of China is not more important than the rest of the world.
@Jack
War with China!
Good luck!
Gerrard White
China’s Economic Growth Now Depends on the West
https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/03/19/china-s-economic-growth-now-depends-on-west-pub-81326
@Gerrard – “War with China! Good luck!”
I’ve said it before, but it is one of the features of psychological warfare that it has no clear beginning but starts before the initiation of open physical conflict and continues after. And biological warfare is more akin to psychological warfare than it is to conventional, nuclear, or chemical warfare.
War has already begun. It began a while back.
Large swathes of the world are in lockdown with social distancing being considered as absolutely necessary in order to limit the spread of Coronavirus. People all around the world are being infected and health care systems are in danger of being overwhelmed.
Meanwhile in France
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/484238-france-police-covid-suburbs/
I think it is tragic what europe have become, look at the video in the link, adults that laugh and jump upon a police car. Not even when I was a young kid did I ever think of doing that.
I have no problem if people come here to work, contribute but when you come to europe and behave like this, no.
On topic, I guess it is in these suburbs and ghettos the virus will spread the most and will probably drain the economic, medical resources the most.
You “did I ever think of doing that” because you had something to LOSE. Turns out when a part of society has been abandoned, has nothing to lose, no potential activities but alcohol and drugs, no venues of improvement or leaving the poverty, they stop caring about society and its laws. Shocking, I know. Why they don’t want to behave like model citizens, I wonder?
We had the exact same phenomenon in Poland during 90s – Kibole (loosely translatable to Hooligans in English) behaved in pretty much the same way. Two decades of economic growth, education, and prosperity made them nearly disappear – but most importantly, no exclusion, racism, or simple xenophobia made reintegration with the rest of society possible. Gee, maybe there is a lesson here?
Well that explains the French. Next up you require an explanation for Delhi bus station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyCrF7DCuNg
Returning to the theme of xenophobia, racism etc. It has been an entire generation since the ending of Apartheid and the dawning of the Rainbow nation. So how do you explain this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_bUpN52Iyw
Either this is a global pandemic or it is not. If it is the former then everyone needs to obey the same laws. If that is not going to be the case, for whatever reason or combination of reasons, then the entire lockdown and consequent economic destruction is utterly pointless.
“Damian Wilson
is a UK journalist”…… Another establishment fear porn merchant.
I lived on Merseyside in the 80s and kids would nick cars then cruise around looking for rozzers to chase them, Mr V is on it.
Ever tried living in a one room shack in a township Loony? No job. No money. No electricity or water for some. What have they got to live for?
Drive past a township and you can find roads with grand Dutch style houses surrounded by gardens with green lawns, electric gates, bars at the windows and a sign on the outside wall indicating which one of the numerous security firms guards it. Not a good place for anyone to live in.
@Maty – This is not about peoples living conditions – sad though that may be.
This is about a lockdown in response to a global pandemic. Either everyone locks down or no-one does, otherwise it is pointless. Evidence from around the world seems to suggest that, assuming you are locked down, then you are engaged in an utterly pointless activity. People in the UK are being prevented from walking in places like the Derbyshire Dales – for what reason? Apparently no reason at all other than to assuage the egos of politicians.
Equally as pertinently large parts of the developed world are in the process of actively destroying their economies – thus ensuring that in the future many more people will be consigned to the living conditions that you find so objectionable, and all for no reason at all.
“Either this is a global pandemic or it is not. If it is the former then everyone needs to obey the same laws.”
Why’s that then?
“Equally as pertinently large parts of the developed world are in the process of actively destroying their economies – thus ensuring that in the future many more people will be consigned to the living conditions that you find so objectionable, and all for no reason at all.”
You got that right, but consider the thesis that the panic has been induced for the purpose of distracting blame for the collapsing economy away from the people in charge of it.
Mr V
These people arent abandoned at all – that is what they want you to believe to justify their life of crime.
They were accepted to come to europe. They get free health care, free school dozens of subsidized aid still they, as adults, behave like this.
jammy codger
Those arent kids in the videos, they are young adults, natives have certainly done the same but we do not need more of that.
Or take this phenomenon:
1,067 cars torched across France suburbs over new year
https://www.thelocal.fr/20140102/new-year-sees-1000-cars-burned-across-france
Certainly didnt occur in the 80s.
Really? What about this?
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/12-year-old-cushion-who-13005163
or this?
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/car-crimes-north-east-youngsters-1368967
And, shock horror, they were British kids. Bit of selective memory going on here I think! You really do have a problem with anything ‘foreign’ don’t you.
Steph
Yes car theft and vandalism isnt new, the behavior of systematically torche other people’s cars in the 1000’s is however a new phenomenon that have arrived in europe.
Please provide reliable source for your assertion that 1000’s of cars are being systematically torched in Europe.
Steph
I.e.
France’s New Year’s Tradition: Car-Burning
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869392,00.html
Interior Minister Manuel Valls said Tuesday that 1,193 vehicles were torched by French youths overnight in what has become a dubious New Year’s Eve tradition.
https://www.france24.com/en/20130102-hundreds-cars-torched-french-new-year-tradition
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Steph
Do you remember this from 2005?
In 2 weeks:
“… resulted in more than 8,000 vehicles being burned by the rioters and more than 2,760 individuals arrested”
” Predominantly African and Arab immigrants to France”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots
Clearly I do not remember it otherwise I wouldn’t have asked for a source re your previous post. Not sharing your, obviously lifelong, fixation with immigrants is there any particular reason why I would?
Steph
I am asking because you still seem to be unaware of who is the culprit behind these car burnings even when I presented sources.
If police wont enforce lock down in certain areas in France then you should realize what a problem europe is facing.
Yes, it is indeed embarrassing that private property is being torched and rebelled against.
In my opinion, a more effective way of dealing with these polluting death machines on our streets would be to recycle their materials for public transport projects.
If you are not sick or elderly or transporting something heavy, you ought to be really ashamed of yourself for driving, let alone owning such an obsolete space hogger.
We must listen to our youth, even in their moments of violence. They can teach us a way forward, out of obsolete economies that cause inequality and air pollution.
Marmite said: “We must listen to our youth, even in their moments of violence”
Acts, whether it is arson, robbery, rape is not something anyone should “listen” to, involved should be condemned and prosecuted.
It is precisely your kind of thinking, Jack, that breeds endless conflict.
When you grow up a little, you will realise that it is better to try to listen to and understand the pain and anger that cause people to do terrible things.
Acting and talking like a thug dictator doesn’t make you a tough guy, just an imbecile, stoking the flames of hatred.
Marmite
Hold on now, do you think its ok with arson, robbery and rape?
Jack, quite right, we are seeing knew and disturbing trends of gang warfare in the scenic South of England, where different ethnicities are carrying machetes in broad daylight. Open borders makes it very easy for desease and crime to spread, for drugs and slavery to flourish.
Yes I agree that is unfortunately the result of turning a blind eye to these regions for so long,
I fear risk of riot and looting if there is pronlonged lock down as in the infamous 2011 incident:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots
“Meanwhile in France”
Of course, no-one in nice, law-abiding Britain would ever dream of spitting in the face of a police officer, while claiming to have covid19, or slit the tires of ambulances. These things never happen in Britain. It’s quite understandable that Loony failed to see such reports.
Actually in France a lot of bleu-blanc-rouges (approx translation: gammons) exaggerate the dangers of the cités where they’ve never been, and not seen in person, and obviously this Damian Wilson was just copying off that stereotype. As it happens I live near one, and I walked through it this afternoon in my permitted walk of a kilometre radius in the lock-down. Perfectly peaceful and risk-free.
Actually, at the moment, commenters normally take the completely opposite position, and complain about the brutality of the Macron regime and his police, as indeed Jay on the last page.
A pointless lie. I made no reference at all to police. How old are you, Laguerre?
“Gang-ridden neighbourhoods” indeed – a characterisation used as justification for the middle classes, the ruling class, and anyone in the “respectable” working class who wishes to join in, chanting “whoop whoop whoop” as millions, mainly non-whites and Arabs, are “allowed to die”, condemned as “unintelligent”, “criminal”, and “dirty”. The propagandistic line runs like this:
“these people are unsaveable scum”…therefore… “these people are unsaveable scum”.
What is a body such as the British Medical Association if it is not a gang?
Laurent Nunez, secretary of state to the minister of the interior, advises that “in certain neighborhoods it is not a priority to enforce closures and stop gatherings.”
Have they rung round the areas with the army yet, wearing CBW suits? Or is that for next week?
There’s been more and more moves, to blame China for spreading this virus either deliberately or not informing the world quick enough. It’s part of Trump’s anti Chinese trade war agenda. The latest is Breitbart attempting to pin 21 million deaths as being the ‘true’ death figure in China based on this report . https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-23/china-s-mobile-carriers-lose-15-million-users-as-virus-bites
“Part of the drop could be caused by migrant workers — who often have one subscription for where they work and another for their home region — canceling their work-region account after the virus prevented them from returning to work after the Lunar New Year holidays that began in late January, said Chris Lane, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein & Co”.
Breitbart, “The opacity of the Chinese Communist government obliges responsible outside observers to look for clues to the truth of the coronavirus epidemic, instead of merely repeating official information without question.
The official count from China is 3,277 fatalities from 81,171 infections as of Tuesday, but the Epoch Times noted the troubling disappearance of some 21 million cell phone accounts in China over the past three months – an unprecedented decline that hints at more fatalities than Beijing is prepared to admit”.
In December, when this new novel virus first appeared in China they were slow to take measures to halt the spread.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/timeline-china-coronavirus-spread-200126061554884.html
“On December 31 last year, China alerted WHO to several cases of unusual pneumonia in Wuhan, a port city of 11 million people in the central Hubei province. The virus was unknown.
Several of those infected worked at the city’s Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, which was shut down on January 1.
As health experts worked to identify the virus amid growing alarm, the number of infections exceeded 40.
On January 5, Chinese officials ruled out the possibility that this was a recurrence of the severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) virus – an illness that originated in China and killed more than 770 people worldwide in 2002-2003.
On January 7, officials announced they had identified a new virus, according to the WHO. The novel virus was named 2019-nCoV and was identified as belonging to the coronavirus family, which includes SARS and the common cold.
Coronaviruses are common and spread through being in proximity to an infected person and inhaling droplets generated when they cough or sneeze, or touching a surface where these droplets land and then touching one’s face or nose”.
This was far far quicker than the UK informed the world about mad cow disease.
file:///C:/Users/fmill/Downloads/mad-cow-disease-british-crisis.htm
Gove shouldn’t throw stones in glasshouses, be attempting to do the ‘look over there’ deflection from his governments response to this crisis. Which has been incompetent and incoherent and bailed out by the MSM and in particular the state Tory controlled BBC.
As Richard Horton has pointed out many many times, the Tories response has been abysmal. While China’s has been honest and open.
Most of the 41 people described in this first report, published in the Lancet, presented with non-specific symptoms of fever and cough. More than half had difficulties in breathing. But most worryingly of all, a third of these patients had such a severe illness that they had to be admitted to an intensive care unit. Most developed a critical complication of their viral pneumonia – acute respiratory distress syndrome. Half died.
The Chinese scientists pulled no punches. “The number of deaths is rising quickly,” they wrote. The provision of personal protective equipment for health workers was strongly recommended. Testing for the virus should be done immediately a diagnosis was suspected. They concluded that the mortality rate was high. And they urged careful surveillance of this new virus in view of its “pandemic potential”.
That was in January. Why did it take the UK government eight weeks to recognise the seriousness of what we now call Covid-19?
“In 2003, Chinese officials were heavily criticised for keeping the dangers of a new viral disease, severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars), secret. By 2020, a new generation of Chinese scientists had learned their lesson. Under immense pressure, as the epidemic exploded around them, they took time to write up their findings in a foreign language and seek publication in a medical journal thousands of miles away. Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. We owe those scientists enormous thanks”.
But did the virus start in China?
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3076334/coronavirus-strange-pneumonia-seen-lombardy-november-leading
A “strange pneumonia” was circulating in northern Italy as long ago as November, weeks before doctors were made aware of the novel coronavirus outbreak in China, one of the European country’s leading medical experts said this week.
“They [general practitioners] remember having seen very strange pneumonia, very severe, particularly in old people in December and even November,” Giuseppe Remuzzi, the director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research in Milan, said in an interview with the National Public Radio of the United States.
“This means that the virus was circulating, at least in [the northern region of] Lombardy and before we were aware of this outbreak occurring in China.”
The economic relationship between Italy and China is quite strong, in particular in the Lombardy region, were thousands and thousands of Chines were brought over to work in the factories sewing the garments for the Italian fashion industry. With direct flights between Milan and China the virus could have gone from Italy to China as much as from China to Italy.
https://spectator.org/coronavirus-the-price-of-luxury/
The first person identified with the virus in China hadn’t been to the Wuhan wet market that has been claimed is where it all started.
“However, a study, by Chinese researchers published in the Lancet medical journal, claimed the first person to be diagnosed with Covid-19, was on 1 December 2019 (a lot of earlier) and that person had “no contact” with the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market.
Wu Wenjuan, a senior doctor at Wuhan’s Jinyintan Hospital and one of the authors of the study, told the BBC Chinese Service that the patient was an elderly man who suffered from Alzheimer’s disease.
“He (the patient) lived four or five buses from the seafood market, and because he was sick he basically didn’t go out,” Wu Wenjuan said.
She also said that three other people developed symptoms in the following days – two of whom had no exposure to Huanan either.
Researchers also found that 27 people of a sample of 41 patients admitted to hospital in the early stages of the outbreak had been exposed to the market
However, the researchers also found that 27 people of a sample of 41 patients admitted to hospital in the early stages of the outbreak “had been exposed to the market”.
The hypothesis that the outbreak started at the market and could have been transmitted from a living animal to a human host before spreading human-to-human is still considered the most likely, according to the World Health Organization (WHO)”.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3051981/coronavirus-did-not-originate-wuhan-seafood-market-chinese
Where the virus started in open to investigation. But what is clear, is the reactionary way Trump and his fellow travellers in the UK – Gove in particular – are attempting to up the anti Chinese rhetoric to damage the Chinese government. A consequence of this will be the inevitable racial backlash against individuals from Far Asia. Yet another set of people for the Tories to blame.
While all this is going on Trump has cited Maduro for Narco-Terrorist activities. The last time the US did this was with Noriega in Panama just before they invaded and deposed him as president.
The Labour party has done their ‘loyal opposition’ best with a vengeance allowing the Tories to get off the hook with their incompetence and dangerous herd immunity – ‘let it run it’s course’, ‘take it on the chin’, ‘you’ll lose loved ones, ‘let the old die for the sake of the UK economy’. These Tories will have to pay for their dangerous lying incompetence. Strurgeon should be more on the offensive.
The question that needs addressing is, how can an island that knew a very infectious virus was in China – and may have been in Italy – in early January kept allowing planes to land and all the passengers and crew were not tested. The Tories lackadaisical and damn right irresponsible attitude to this crisis – brought on by herd immunity ideology – should be the focus of any investigation. A dereliction of duty has resulted in more deaths than was necessary.
Tarla in that somewhat encyclopaedic collection did you miss this particular possible vector?
https://ahtribune.com/world/covid-19/3994-us-did-bring-covid-19-to-wuhan.html
The article is rich in allegations but short on verifiable facts and is published in the UNZ review, a bit of a sensationalist website. Be careful not to disseminate misinformation.
Try and keep an open mind SA.
We are not being presented with all the facts by the msm.
This link has a further take – you can argue the substance but not with dissing the publisher or writer.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-two-major-waves-of-global-infection-towards-global-contamination/5707588
Dungroaning
I believe you are doing this in good faith but find myself being led down a big rabbit hole. The first thing to note is that this article is not written by scientists but by Larry Romanoff, a retired business consultant. Although he references to some factual and scientific websites he does not reference to any factual parts within these websites. What he writes is an interpretation of what he thinks he understands. For example after conceding that the first patient within US to be diagnosed came from China he then goes down the path that some subsequent patients were diagnosed that had no connection with China. He uses the same device in Italy and then states without proof that there were different strains of the virus in different countries. His first statement can simply be explained by the finding in many different countries of the same phenomenon which is that primary cases came from China or had a Chinese connection but after a while patients with no travel history were diagnosed with Covid-19. This is probably because it is not entirely clear how many carriers and asymptomatic individuals are infected and it may be that patient A transmitted the disease to patient B who was asymptomatic and perhaps transmitted it to another 10 individuals or mildly affected until it ended up with the person diagnosed without a travel history. His statements about variants are not substantiated.
My advice to you is this, please do not trust hacks of any sort who pontificate about Covid-19 or for that matter on any scientific and medical matter. Cherry picking of facts and misinterpretation of data is rife when someone tries to make facts fit the theory. Politicians do it all the time.
So I have been on a learning curve. I used to regard OG, Veterans Today, Thierr Meyssan, Global research, Corbett’s report as reliable sources but soon discovered that one by one you may initially agree with their politics but their unrelenting push to make facts fit the (C) theories and their cherry picking has taught me some hard lessons. Sorry.
I’m in agreement with you about being sceptical of all such sites inc all msm. Including all on your list.
I only believe in a very few indy journalists.
On this particular matter i have made a reply to the main poster – you’ll find it at the end of this thread.
KBO! All best.
DunGroanin
Thanks. Very, very informative.
It is striking how many tiny countries and regions were infected very early on – the list includes Andorra, San Marino, and Liechtenstein. I am sure that if a statistical analysis is done it will show that given assumptions on spread, the sheer number of countries infected was fishy. It as if somebody was trying to make the number of countries as large as possible for the headline effect.
Larry Romanoff makes the same point in his piece in Global Research when he writes that “A natural virus hasn’t the ability to simultaneously infect 85 different countries on all continents of the world”.
@ DunGroanin March 29, 2020 at 16:04
Thanks for that excellent link. I had heard of the American Military Games personnel possibly bringing it in, but didn’t have the detail in that link.
Also worth considering: ‘#Corona Virus in China predicted 10 years ago! It Has Been Planned All Along!’:
https://phiquyenchinh.org/2020/02/03/corona-virus-in-china-predicted-10-years-ago-it-has-been-planned-all-along/
There have been reports for decades that the PTB intend to undertake a ‘human culling’ of ‘useless eaters’ and anyone who stands in the way of a New World Order One World Government (Gulag).
Many think it is cloud-cuckoo land – we’ll find out all too soon.
Oh you are so out of date. Don’t you know that all this was predicted by Nostraamus?
@ SA March 29, 2020 at 20:26
Aren’t you surprised at all about the US Military’s abysmal performance in the Wuhan Military Games, in October, and their staying in a hotel right near the Wuhan Market?
In October 2019, the US brought 172 (allegedly 369) military athletes to Wuhan for the World Military Games. And they attained??? 3 Silver and 5 Bronze medals, ranking 35th.
Canada got the princely number of 1 Silver and 2 Bronze medals (I suspect they had a very small contingent, unlike the Yanks).
I find it very interesting that the UK, Australia and Israel did not apparently compete – most odd. Were they perhaps tipped off that foul deeds were afoot?
The Yanks performed so dismally the Chinese nicknamed them the ‘Soy Sauce Soldiers’.
Obviously, there is no rock hard proof, but surely room for reasonable speculation?
What would you proffer as a reason for the US abysmal performance? I’m not greatly into sports, never mind ‘Military Games’, but I would bet this is unprecedented for the US.
Paul Barbara,
UK, Australia and Israel did not take part in the 2015 and 2011 games either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Military_World_Games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Military_World_Games
Nice attempt to ensnare “Trump and his fellow travellers”
A more rational form of inquiry may be to examine the activities of the WHO. Why, could it be only January 14th 2020 when the WHO was keen to reassure the world that there was no evidence of human to human transmission of Coronavirus?
Why, yes it could be. And where was the WHO obtaining its primary information from? That’s right it was China.
“Trump and his fellow travellers” may be many things but one thing they are not is professional experts in pandemics. By contrast the WHO exists as a consequence of its expertise in infectious diseases and pandemics.
Is Taiwan a part of the world? Or maybe it does not exist and is a figment of the imagination. If you pay attention to the WHO you would be forgiven for thinking that Taiwan is a mythical land
https://twitter.com/gracejackson/status/1243893976324849664
Loony,
I’m glad you mentioned the WHO, which has a representative office in Beijing, a rather large regional office in Manila and maintains close contact with the HKSAR’s surveillance of Influenza strains emerging in the Asia Pac Region. That it took until 16 February to arrange a delegation to visit Wuhan does indicate a lack of urgency, this despite places like Singapore, HKSAR and Taiwan implementing containment measures prior to the end of January, the first outside of China Covid-19 case being reported in Thailand on 17 January.
However, whilst I’m sure that Bojo can use the WHO as a get out of jail card, the fact remains, and despite WHO opinion, many Asia Pac nations were taking the pathogen very seriously by no later than end of January, and have all coped to a far higher degree than the UK or USA.
Christopher Dale Rogers
Particularly South Korea and Japan. Compare those two countries and Germany, with Spain, Italy and the US. Testing en masse was the key to prevention, plus forensic work on contacts.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Taiwan can’t claim to be a separate entity when it was happy to be known as the Republic of China and on the security council. So it wanted to be known as Chinese so is therefore part of China.
It does not matter what you think of Taiwan. It matters only that it exists. If it exists and if there are people living there then those people can act as a vector for onward transmission of the virus – almost certainly this onward transmission will include places that you find less objectionable than Taiwan and almost certainly to people you view in a more favorable light than “Trump and his fellow travellers”
It is a virus – it does not care about peoples sensibilities or political views.
Tarla,
Whilst, as a white devil I’me very have to acknowledge China/Beijing sovereignty over Hong Kong, which was effectively stolen from China in the 1840’s, I’m afraid Taiwan has rather differing views about the People’s Republic of China, and prefer to rule themselves with a fairly democratic system of governance.
@ Christopher Dale Rogers March 29, 2020 at 18:44
When the Yank’s choice in the Chinese Civil War, the Kuomintang (KMT) under Chiang Kai-shek, lost against Mao Tse Tsung’s Communists (one of the few times America backed a loser, though they have backed plenty of despots). the KMT fled to Taiwan, and has only maintained it’s position there due to US and cronies support.
I doubt if they can make any ‘Democratic’ decision without the permission of Uncle Sam, who prefer a ‘state of tension’ as they fostered in Europe with Gladio.
Not so much ‘divide and rule’ between China and Taiwan, but more sustaining the division.
Loony, the WHO was informed by the Chinese as soon as December.
What the WHO did thereafter is the fault of these that control it.
‘China warned us early on. The WHO was informed in late December. On January 3 the director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was informed by his Chinese colleagues. After China recognized that the new SARS-CoV-2 virus indeed jumped from person to person it took radical measures to get a grip on the epidemic and those measures have worked well. China has only 3,255 death in a nation of 1.4 billion people. Today all checkpoints were removed from Wuhan city and life there is slowly turning back to normal.
Other Asian nations have likewise reacted fast and effectively. It was and is the ‘west’ which, despite having been warned, is responding poorly to the crisis.’
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/03/coronavirus-on-western-government-failures-and-possible-therapies.html
That was to be expected, for the high and mighty, still smarting over their takeover of Parliament and the prospect of shocking the EU into a hard Brexit, were all cockahoop.
Now, all of the public can see what Asian countries, with billions of people living there, are able to do in just over 3 month, whilst we are being told to hole up through the summer for 6 month plus.
I know that many of the old hue will bend over to comply, but our younger generations will not understand why they can’t go to the seaside or visit festivals, their compliance is not guarantied. Should food supplies fail due to this lockdown, with the DWP being informed to cajole jobseekers to work in the fens, we will see something completely different on the streets, in warehouses and retail outlets. People who have been promised wages in late June at the earliest, will have nothing. I leave you to guess the consequences.
The Tories are still allowing 20 daily flights in from global Covid hotspot NYC. No social distancing on board the planes; no checks when they arrive; passengers allowed to.disperse, many onto the Tube network. Meanwhile police drones are threatening people walking a dog in the Peak District.
It’s also being asked why the official mortality figures are lagging so far behind what the hospitals are experiencing.
@Greg – Interesting info about the Peak District. It’s almost as if the rulers want the proles to be packed into the cities. It’s as if it’s a sin against humanity and nature for a prole to escape to enjoy the countryside even for a short period. The indication is that a cull is coming that will make the CV19 death rate look like a vicar’s tea party.
Hoard food.
Best not to scaremonger N.
@Mary – I have predicted a cull for several years and now it is happening.
Mass death in the lower orders is a strand you can find in Thomas Malthus, Francis Galton, Herbert Spencer, H G Wells, and others, and it is deeply built in to the mentality of Tories who view the population as sh*t on their shoes, as germ-carriers whose women commit a crime against humanity when they get pregnant, as criminals, and whose areas of town one only has to catch a glimpse of to be reinforced in the view that these castes’ existence in the world is superfluous to decent people’s requirements.
Nobody who doesn’t know this has a clue about Britain.
I’m not going to stop recognising this fact now that the “please sign Do Not Resuscitate forms – they have big benefits” letters are liiterally getting sent out by GPs and eugenicist-Malthusian attitudes are ever more out in the open.
“Food security”, i.e. access to food, will soon become a major issue. Famine awaits. Hoard food.
Those who think that non-elite elements who hoard food are antisocial should get themselves some backbone and think about where the rich get their wealth from some time, or what “the economy” is all about if we want to put it like that.
A major problem with the institutionalised parliamentarist left is that it cannot denounce hypocrisy. Democratic politics is similar to when you get a slanging-match whipped up between two popular musical groups: neither of them ever says the other can’t play for toffees, has nothing but contempt for its fans, and is only in it for the money.
When the Tories say they love the NHS, their mouths should burn.
N
“Hoard food”
You are a disgrace N.
@N and @Cubby
I’ve had anecdotal reports of a few people starving in Asian countries because of being forbidden to go out fishing or gathering while too ashamed to ask for help..These are people who live day to day and little chance of hoarding food.
Within UK , there are moves to make trespassing a criminal offence,undoing the advances made by ramblers since the 19.30’s
“Equally as pertinently large parts of the developed world are in the process of actively destroying their economies – thus ensuring that in the future many more people will be consigned to the living conditions that you find so objectionable, and all for no reason at all.”
You got that right, but consider the thesis that the panic has been induced for the purpose of distracting blame for the collapsing economy away from the people in charge of it.
They are lying about the deaths by using weasel words of “confirmed (no testing no confirmation), and “hospitalised”, not in the hospital then don’t count.
Outsourced 111has become to serve as an assisted dying service, their stats are not being taken account of with respect to corona victims and the deaths thereof.
Three junior Doctors were in intensive care and now they have passed away:
Dr Amged El-Hawrani
Dr Adil El-Tayar
Dr Habib Zaidi.
These deaths are the direct result of lack of Personal Protection Equipment, that has been promised and never delivered. Poor souls the moment they were in intensive care they had a 50% chance of survival as per NHS own reports.
Lancet carries an article that contends entire board of NHS England ought to resign.
The simple fact is there not enough ventilators, capap machines, or ecmo machines and the the current policy is to “palliate” as per the chat data of the eugenicist A. Sabisky anyone over sixty. This means to inject morphine and let the poor souls to pass away due to drowning in air, this national scandal is not being debated or discussed and instead attention of the public is diverted with diversions; “parties being held”, “China’s Fault”, etc.
No 10 realising the gravity of the situation has deployed Lynton Crosby for six figure sum, hence the N. Koreans style propaganda of dear leader and the relevant mob flooding the social media.
Meanwhile back at the ranch No. 10 has contracted Plantair, and Amazon, Microsoft for “tracking corona” giving access to personal data of the patients in the NHS database.
Must dash for now.
There’s only been 135 people who’ve recovered – 9% of total closed case and 81% have died. They stopped recording recovery figures since 22/03/2020, Odd really as it makes it out the NHS are not saving people.
Greg Park
That is quite correct, and from other places which have high infection rates. We should have closed down all the airports, or followed the Australian model of putting all inbound air passengers under 14 day quarantine with testing. An Iran Air flight IR711 landed at Heathrow yesterday and one landed on Thursday. What happens to all the passengers after they leave the airport?
The harrassment of two people in a wide open space was just astonishing, outrageous even. Why aren’t they shutting down public transport systems, stopping many firms wrongly identifying as “key”?
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ir711#244a6fa5
“The (harassment) of two people in a wide open space was just astonishing, outrageous even.”
“Exercise” is begrudgingly mentioned in the legislation probably as a sop to the companies that sell carb-heavy and additive-adulterated “food” (among the main causes of heart disease and cancer), but in practice the authorities are boasting about clearing people out of parks and harassing them in the countryside.
So much for “public health”, eh?
It’s as if every middle class tw*t is becoming an “expert” on demography, on how to manage the herd.
I said the Tories’ mouths should burn when they say love the NHS. I would go further and say the same about the ruling class as a whole and “public health”. Whenever we hear a minister or senior “medical officer” speak about “public health”, we should feel like chucking a rock.
Tarla,
Almost most detail present about the Wuhan City outbreak is factual, further, one of the South China Morning Post’s journalists in Hong Kong has claimed to have viewed Chinese medical documents that indicate China’s own medical system picked up its first Covid-19 case circa 17 November, 2019 – as no formal documentation conclusively proving this, I remain sceptical, but corona viral outbreaks are not unknown, SARS being the obvious. Further, Chinese scientists are actively working to locate a ‘patient zero’ and establish exactly where this pathogen emerged.
Further, any critique of China and its handling of this outbreak must be done on genuine facts, and in this instance, the fact are available for all to see, including Beijing dismissing Officials whom they believe acted too slowly in alerting Beijing itself to the fact – Wuhan City being a far old distance away from Beijing.
A few other observations, the facts are that the UK has a large Embassy in Beijing and has Consulate services and other representatives offices spread across China. The UK’s largest Consulate office by far was established in Hong Kong after the Handover and is manned British Nationals, many of whom so happen to be Chinese, so, these persons have a pretty good idea what’s happening just across the border and in Hong Kong itself.
The above fact is most important because on 3 January 2020 the Hong Kong Hospital Authority issued an urgent announcement that put its Health Service on its highest emergency level and rolled out emergency protocols created after the 2003 SARS crisis that took a large toll on the Territory, see January announcements here: https://www.dh.gov.hk/english/useful/useful_ld/useful_ld.html
I can of course chart events in Hong Kong in detail as I was aware of the issues afflicting Wuhan City on my Departure from Heathrow Airport on 5th January, and, can note enhanced temperature measurement measures being in place upon my arrive in Hong Kong.
Indeed, as January proceeded the Wuhan virus took up a lot of news space in the Territory with a much increased incident of locals wearing face masks, news that the virus had been confirmed in Hong Kong on 23 January sent shivers through our communities, not only this, it impacted trade in stocks on the Hang Seng Index.
I can return to the WHO another time, but for the UK Government to suggest that it was kept in the dark about this pathogen is a lie as the FCO were fully aware what was happening in both Hong Kong and China.
The fact is, and despite having public health care systems that almost mirror each other, both being under funded and bother having lower beds per population than their competitors, Hong Kong took a pre-emptive approach is fighting this pathogen, beginning 3 January, it then announced containment measures on 25 January and has been battling the pathogen ever since, at which, it has largely been successful, although we are are on tenterhooks presently.
Contrast the HKSAR’s response to the pathogen and you get your answer, namely, the UK failed to prepare and failed to act to combat a pandemic, preferring it to progress among our populace unimpeded. And this fact is certainly not the fault of the People’s Republic of China.
Thanks, very useful information about Hong Kong to counter the UK’s anti People’s Republic of China propaganda. As you say, it’s not China’s fault the UK took no notice.
You seem to know a bit about Hong Kong? Is it still tradition, for something white to be put outside peoples residence when someone dies?
Alternatively…it could be that a totalitarian state…lies.
mockc,
Indeed, the UK & Westminster have a proud history of lying, and its present figures for Covid-19 are most suspect, based on the fact its actually cut back to the bone swabs that are necessary to us RT-PCR tests effectively, usually three swabs are required, alas, we are now down to one, essentially, for the peasants, we get a single swab taken from the back of nasal passage of back of throat to be sent to pathology for testing for Covid-19, and another swab is also taken and tested for influenza and other pathogens that cause respiratory illness, usually three swabs are required for a Covid-19 test alone – funny that.
Also, was it Blair or smoother UK politician said WMD exited in Iraq and could be used against the UK at 30 mins notice – can’t put my finger on it, but strangely, no WMD’s existed in Iraq at the time of the last invasion – we could talk Syria, but its getting rather late.
Thanks for the fact Dale.
Can you have a look at the new tests being deployed in the UK and give your opinion please.
I have detected a epidemic of trolls spreading as of this weekend here – they seem to have their playbook sorted.
Yes, of course, the UK and Westminster lie; so does China, Germany and everyone else. It is in the nature of the beast.
And no-one of any sense believed Iraq had WMD. It was cover to advance the Wolfowitz Doctrine for the US to dominate the Middle East.
@ mickc March 29, 2020 at 18:44
Well, the UK and US certainly do, though it could be argued they are not quite totally totalitarian just yet.
Our internment camps will be called “Freedom Camps”.
Or refugee camps and Julian Assange internment.
It’s going to go beyond mere internment.
Re Covid virus timeline.
Tarla
The https://www.covid19-archive.com/?repost lists all the news reports they can find in an attempt to make a timeline of the virus spread.
I have sent a link to them regarding the links you have contributed, hope you don’t mind.
This is how they start, rather suspicious:
Day 1 – 31. december 2019
I assume day 1 was 31st of December 2019 as this was the earliest report of a new illness they had found.
But if the Military games event was the starting point that would explain how the virus spread so quickly, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games there were 9,308 athletes from 110 countries there, given that the participants were, I presume, mostly young people and therefore most likely to be the least affected group, then spreading the new illness would be likely to be global, they need not know that they were unwitting carriers. This does not mean that there was any conspiracy, only that the vector could have been there. It’s just a possibility.
Not at all.
To All,
You understand that I am not claiming there is a fact that it is linked to the Military games.
The Chinese authorities are not stating it as a fact.
Here is what I know of the claim so far.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/2019-military-world-games-kicks-off-in-central-chinas-wuhan-300940464.html
‘More than 100 nations and 10,000 participants took part in the 2019 Military World Games that wrapped up October 27 in Wuhan, China.
The United States sent 17 teams with over 280 athletes and staff to the games.’
https://uk.usembassy.gov/peace-through-sports-at-the-2019-military-world-games/
(Their performance was won three silver medals and five bronze medals and the country finished in 35th place in the medal table (basketball, wrestling and golf))
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_2019_Military_World_Games
It’s the first Games to feature a newly-built athletes’ village. The lakeside compound, with 1,958 suites in 30 buildings
https://eurasiantimes.com/military-world-games-2019-opens-in-china-amid-grand-spectre-and-fanfare-xinhua/
Where did the US contingent stay?
‘Addressing the six key conundrums surrounding the virus, Yang Zhanqiu, deputy director of the pathogen biology department at Wuhan University,’
‘Regarding the “biochemical war” conspiracy theory circulated online, Yang explained that Wuhan held the Military World Games in October last year and the US delegation stayed in a hotel not far from the seafood market. Wuhan discovered cases of coronavirus infection later in December.’
“This is why some people have speculated that the outbreak is a biochemical war conspiracy launched by the US against China,” Yang said. ”
“The topic is not appropriate to circulate and ferment among the public. I have to say that biochemical war lacks ethics and its possibility is extremely small,” he said.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1179745.shtml
Other views are available.
https://www.thearticle.com/the-coronavirus-cold-war
A personal view of Wuhan by a yank who was there before and during the epidemic.
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/03/09/escape-from-wuhan/
Yang Zhanqiu, deputy director of the pathogen biology department at Wuhan University, seems to be conflating biological warfare with chemical warfare. If one wishes to speak of “biochemical war”, why not “bionuclear war” or “nuclear-chemical war”? Bio and chemical are very different.
Thank you for that analysis. What website in China gives the best provincial and large city data on Convid-C. How does that compare with the daily reports by Public Health England (and its counterparts in Scotland and N Ireland)?
Global Times has been running a daily rolling update and other articles in English. It seems to be pretty comprehensive.
England remains determined to drag Scotland down to England’s xenophobic level.
You sound as though like most Scottish independence supporters you’re only willing to tolerate Englishmen (“FEBs” from “Westminster”) who know their subservient place and don’t start coming it like they’ve got any rights. SNP types will claim to be green, non-xenophobic, internationalist, or anything else they think they could get a grant out of, or otherwise get their hands on money for saying.
Doug
And what is Scotland doing about it? Or when is Scotland going to do something about it?
Looks like Italian MSM is no better than ours (some marginally worse, even):
‘Ingratitude: Top Italian newspaper calls Russian Covid-19 aid ‘useless’, implies Putin using medical mission for military scouting’:
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/484183-italy-coronavirus-russia-putin/
And like some of our lot, La Stampa is said to be Left leaning. Left of Mussolini or Franco, maybe.
According to Wikipedia it is a centrist paper, which means, yes as you say, left of Mussolini and Franco.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Stampa
@ SA March 29, 2020 at 16:22
Well, according to Wikepedia, re the Guardian, ‘..The paper’s readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion..’. I’ll prefer RT’s definition of La Stampa’s position on the political spectrum.
And I find it detestable, re Russia’s selfless assistance to Italy during their virus tribulations.
I suggest you read Udo Ulfkotte’s book, ‘Presstitutes’. It clearly applies to La Stampa, though written mainly about Germany’s MSM.
Staying in the UK doesn’t just make Scots poorer it kills Scots.
Stunning analysis – obviously the words “global pandemic” would exclude Scotland were it not for its proximity to England.
Loony
If you weren’t obviously a Loony you would know that was an assertion not an analysis.
Staying in the UK doesn’t just make Scots poorer it kills Scots. There you are an assertion. It doesn’t need analysis because like an assertion such as it gets dark at night it is bleeding obvious.
They say the Police enforced Lock down is to protect the most vulnerable.
My Wife is a health care worker she goes from house to house looking after the house bound elderly and infirmed twenty or more call a day. She has not been issued with any personal protection except the normal gloves uniform and apron.
Every year if she starts to get a cold she has to decide when to stop calling to protect them.
I am in SHOCK
Sky News UK yesterday had honest corona virus report
The started with the average number of people that die every day at over 1000
Then they explained that over eighty percent of those that die with corona virus had preexisting conditions and would have died anyway.
Then It showed the projected extra deaths just due corona virus were comparable with extra deaths due to average year flue deaths.
Then it showed the large number of deaths due to austerity.
Making the point that deaths from future austerity as a result of shutdown could far out way deaths from corona virus.
At this point the honesty ended.
Failed to mention status of covid-19 had been downgraded before police enforced lock down to Biohazard Level 3 or maybe it is Biohazard Level 2 That includes HIV.
Instead of stating that shutdown was a counter productive over reaction. With the police enforced lock down a outrageous erosion of civil liberties. That would have long lasting effects and could take a decade or more to recover from. Made the week questionable point that self isolating was helping.
It just shows they want to bully people back to work amid a pandemic and are already trying to soften the public up for a fresh unjustified austerity regime.
“The started with the average number of people that die every day at over 1000”
600,000 people die each year in the UK – that’s in excess of 11,500 per week, so around 1,650 per day.
In the not-too-distant future, there will be studies carried out to determine the true extent of excess deaths due to Covid-19. It will be instructive to see what levels they reach. Many patients will die with, as well as of, the virus, but the criminal neglect of the NHS by successive governments, and failure to act precipitously as soon as the outbreak spread beyond China, has certainly made a bad situation incomparably worse.
The basic cause of the failure to respond to a, wholly predictable, pandemic of this sort lies in the barbaric practises of those guided by neo-liberal economics. A prime example is found in Ontario where, after the Sars outbreak a government funded report predicted a recurrence and advised the Health Services to stockpile, inter alia, masks and ventilators. In fact this action was taken, but as time passed and the stocks aged, they were destroyed or auctioned off without being replaced. They were not replaced in order to finance tax cuts which, in a sense, were imposed on the Province by the ‘need’ to compete with rival jurisdictions in attracting capital more a cheap rationalisation than a necessity.
And after the Thatcher and Reagan inspired Anglosphere regimes the role of the EU in imposing the crudest forms of neo-liberal regulation has been critical. The recent ‘nationalisation’ of the Health Services in Ireland was not only impossible under Maastricht rules but a reflection of the intense privatisation which followed Ireland’s failed attempt to get out from under the EU by referendum.
Then there is Greece: how many Greeks have died in the past few years because of the EU’s sadistic privatisation and austerity diktats?
The fact is that this crisis has shown how appallingly bad EU governance and how much its actions are dictated by an adherence to the doctrines of neo-liberalism demanded by the German government and imposed by the Central Bank. The Eu’s response to the crisis has been a clinic in governmental incompetence and political deafness.
This is from a google translation of an article found today at The Delphi Initiative website:
“…The causes of this disaster are well known: with the Maastricht Treaty, the EU imposed austerity policies on all of its member countries.
“For decades, the budgets of public services have been (cut back), care units, maternity hospitals and hospitals closed, tens of thousands of beds cut. There is a shortage of personnel – doctors, nurses, nursing assistants, stretcher bearers, paramedics – there is a shortage of non-renewed medical equipment. For a year, in France, nursing staff in all departments have been constantly alerting by all means available to them about the dramatic situation of the hospital, both human and material. The government has deliberately left the situation to rot…”
It cannot be repeated too often, to the remaining Remainers, that leaving the EU does not by any means mean that the country has to adopt the sorts of policies, favoured by the Tories and the US, which are simply other versions of neo-liberalism. On the contrary it was not ‘racism’ or any other idiocy that lay behind the public’s disenchantment with the EU but the experience-locally observable and impacting their own lives- of the consequences of following EU policies. Living standards have been falling and employment has been lost ever since the EU committed its members to the full effect of neo-liberal economics, modeled on those of the Pinochet regime in Chile.
Other policies, other worlds are very possible- and the ‘bigots and racists’ of the English electorate saw this and voted accordingly.
I should add that, in Ontario a stock of 55 million masks held in reserve against the eventuality of a pandemic and of the kind now impossible to obtain, was disposed of.
Bevin,
The funny thing is, the main vector in transmission of the SARS-COV2 Covid-19 pathogen has been commercial air traffic, and all risks were known well in advance, so it is strange than even today with have commercial aircraft flying from one hot zone to another hot zone perpetuating the crisis. A recent paper on this fact was uploaded on the CDC website a few days ago, its linked: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/03/12/2002616117
@ Christopher Dale Rogers March 29, 2020 at 17:56
You seem to understand the terminology and testing regime for Covid – 19; what do you make of the following? According to Jon Rappaport, it shows the present testing is next to useless:
‘Jon Rappoport’s Blog’: https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2020/03/24/heres-what-the-cdc-says-about-the-test-for-the-coronavirus/
https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download
I’m all at sea with this, but it does seem strange if scientists and doctors/medics don’t have a clear idea of what any tests they are using are actually testing for.
Of course, the EU is despotic and controlling, but at the same time neo-liberal, nevermind that the two ideas are totally contradictory. You’re evidently well-informed, dear bevin, from your home 3,500 miles away from Europe.
Actually, disposing of stocks of masks in the 2010s seems likely to have been a fault of several countries, though it’s not as clear as in Canada. France, Britain among others. Austerity policies, no doubt, cut down on anything not seen as immediately vital.
bevin
It is all very well to blame the EU for all the ills that befall us but it is not just the EU. Our UK government has been very vigorous at driving down the number of the beds and in reducing spending on the NHS than other countries in Europe like Germany. If what you say is true then how do you explain the following:
The number of ITU beds per 100,000 population is 3.5 in UK but 24.6 in Germany
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1318945/Intensive-care-crisis-We-fewer-beds-nation.html
I know the source is the Daily Mail but this is based on a Lancet study. Also look at these figures from the health foundation.
https://www.health.org.uk/chart/chart-how-does-the-uk-compare-internationally-for-health-funding-staffing-and-hospital-beds
It is easy for politicians to blame the ITU but I think we should look beyond these accusations. Brexit did not happen to improve spending on the NHS and increase ITU beds.
Let alone the Tories’ treatment of NHS staff, the reduction in their numbers and even the abandonment of nursing bursaries.
The agenda has been – Demoralise. Destabilise. Dismantle.
Deliberately sacrificing the lives of British people so you can make money is nothing short of evil.
TJ There is an error in your statement. Just remove the word “British” and replace with “any”
@ Phil E March 29, 2020 at 20:16
Luckily I read your comment first – I was immediately stirred to comment, but saw you had done so first.
Reminds me of when I was campaigning for East Timor, in the ’80’s, of a placard I made reading ‘Are British Jobs worth more than Timorese Lives?’. At the time, Britain was selling Hawk aircraft to Indonesia, which was using them with devastating effect on the defenceless East Timorese (defenceless against aerial attack, that is).
But the sales continued, just as arms sales are now to Saudi Arabia for use against Yemen.
Boris’s regime can now be classified as the regime that is killing its own people.
Russia seems to get hit by it too now. Already over a thousand cases i Moscow and the mayor there urged people to stay inside.
They have had it for a while too – putin was making speeches to businesses about it.
They won’t want the European Courts of Human Rights looking into the crimes they are committing. They certainly don’t want any investigations into policies of ignoring and downplaying the virus leading to mass spread and mass deaths. They won’t anyone looking into what they’ve done the NHS over the years that left them impossible to cope and which will lead to mass deaths. They won’t want anyone looking into the criminality of deliberately wanting people to die to fulfill eugenicist theories about herd immunity. Nope Johnson and Cummings will want the EU courts out of the picture as soon as possible. They are deliberately executing a policy of creating mass deaths in their society, while they are protected by privileged access to health care. Getting rid of the EU courts is essential to their plans. And, as you pointed out, they’ve already got schemes to pump tax money out to wealthy Tory businesspeople. Which means that’s who will have the cash to buy assets at firesale prices.
The only comfort to be taken is that they can’t take it with them.
I looked at this today. Blair befriended Arnault of Louis Vuitton. Arnault gave Cathryn Blair a job in Paris. He allowed Blair to go to the Kensington High St store after hours and choose suits, shirts and shoes plus other goodies that took BLiar’s eye.
He heads this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_billionaires_by_net_worth
The British version:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_billionaires_by_net_worth
It is interesting to ponder the fact that all the over 70’s now staying indoors will not only be protected from this particular virus. They will of course also be ‘protected’ from all the other viruses and bacterial infections to which they would normally be exposed. In fact it is not entirely impossible that Covid-19 will actually end up decreasing the normal death rate of older people for a while.
Could do steph
Also for first time in years has made people assess their own actions.
I work with the public in my job. A percentagevare vulnerable. If i have any heavy cold,cough i will stay off work. And i’m self employed so that decision costs money.
If my kids have something they pick up at school i keep them off and away from their grandparents as a matter of course. One hopes that common sense may eventually prevail but this current government seem more concerned in covering their complicity in this in terms of ruining the nhs and allowing unscreened flights in from infection hotspots.
One hopes that some good, however small, might result. But I share your deep concerns with regards to the government.
Oh dear. Ageism at work. The same will apply to all other age groups. It does not follow that an over 70 will be more likely to be infected, only the risks of suffering the more severe forms will increase and increased further with so called underlying conditions.
My thought was in no way ageist. I am of that group myself and have no idea why you should think that! Of course it applies to all who take steps to prevent infection from covid-19, they will all have reduced exposure to other viruses. However as it is older people who are most severely affected by all viruses, it is amongst those that a reduction of serious illness and deaths as a result of isolation might be perhaps discernable.
For older people write Tory electorate, to be kept alive to vote again.
Hahaha! Not all of us nevermind, not all of us! But maybe that is the secret plan. ‘Shield’ all the older people from absolutely everything, using the cover of coronavirus, so they can all vote for the bastards again!
That’s one side of the coin.
The other side is that mortality will significantly increase amongst sufferers of heart conditions, strokes, diagnosed and undiagnosed cancer, and other serious conditions who will not receive timely treatment, and die at home because there will be neither the hospital beds nor the medical attention available for them.
I may be missing something, but I haven’t noticed a peep out of Porton Down.
Surely they would be able to either confirm or deny the worldwide allegations that Covid – 19 was created, weaponised, in a lab? And that it has three sections/parts of a HIV gene inserted in it?
They did indicate they weren’t about to lie in the Skripal Affair, so maybe they have been governmentally muzzled.
I may have termed it wrongly, but the allegations are out there, from India, China, Russia, Iran and elsewhere.
Sequences for HIV and SARS-CoV-2 are taken all the time and are publicly available.
https://www.hiv.lanl.gov/content/sequence/genome_browser/browser.html
https://bigd.big.ac.cn/ncov/network?lang=en
Scientists would quickly notice if someone had stuck a HIV sequence onto a coronavirus or done some other genetic tinkering. Not that it makes much sense, they are very different viruses.
@ Mighty Drunken March 29, 2020 at 23:40
It’s above my head, but my understanding of the charges is that the HIV segments were added to increase contagiousness, and were virtually impossible to have happened naturally.
The behaviour and ‘attainments’ of the US Wuhan Military Games Contingent is also extremely odd, and would fit perfectly with a plan to spread the virus (with the ‘Chinese Scientists Stole Coronavirus Agents From Canada’, and the Chinese Class IV Security Lab being right there, for a cover story/confusion tactic).
There is zero scientific evidence that this virus is man made or that it contains a bit of HIV virus. See the conversation between me and Michael Norton
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/corona-virus-governemnt-takes-the-st-augustine-approach/#post-51219
I’ve just seen these 3 names China, Russia and Iran, in another piece of news.
USA has just appointed Fox News journalist to the Department of State. Lea Gabrielle the name.
I expect now they will accuse Russia, China and Iran of all misfortune in the world, no doubt of Covid virus too.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/with-new-appointment-state-department-ramps-up-war-against-foreign-propaganda/
It seems entirely reasonable to blame China for the Covid virus. After all it had its genesis in China. Here is a video of a Chinese person in Italy protesting that he is not a virus and encouraging Italians to hug him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULceASXv88
I thin it is perfectly reasonable to inquire as to whether this man was acting solely on his own initiative or whether he was acting in concert with some branch of the Chinese state. If it was the latter then it seems reasonable to compare and contrast that with the current Chinese ban on foreigners entering China because of Chinese fears of infection.
many infections come from Asia and Africa. I blame it on a favorable climate and hygienic ignorance. and since the world is on the path of globalization, those peoples who consider themselves civilized should devote more resources to education, hygiene and health in less developed countries. this is more reasonable than spending a lot of money on gold ornaments in palaces and churches, luxury yachts and political propaganda.
The world was on a path to globalization. I remain hopeful that a combination Vladimir Putin and Coronavirus will put a stop to all of this insanity.
Few people seem to appreciate the breathtaking scale of Putin’s ambition. By way of a small step Russia has embarked on a path designed to remove the House of Saud, and destroy the power of the US$ – and all without there being either need or intention to fire a single shot. With the world being obsessed with Coronavirus and vast US military assets being deployed to protect the homeland there is little chance of the Cavalry riding to the rescue of the Saudi’s and less chance of anyone paying attention.
Not since 1945 has the world been witness to the power of Russia – and this time around no-one notices.
Loony, comments like yours make me afraid for too much drama. It’s definitely not the impression that I expected. In another place I used wrong word ‘self-sacrifice’ and got response with similar emotion level.
It makes me feel very uneasy, as if I was begging for praise for my country.
Hope you understand.
What do you think of simple pointing out the unjust and unfair attitude? I mean less emotional and more rational.
Look, here is an example:
“Beware of Bad Samaritans.
China and Russia are sending medical aid to Italy and other coronavirus-stricken countries, but their motives aren’t so altruistic.”
By Elizabeth Braw
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/30/russia-china-coronavirus-geopolitics/
Loony
March 30, 2020 at 09:31
“After all it had its genesis in China.”
You mean it it’s been proven beyond reasonable doubt? It hasn’t, as far as I know.
With Oil prices plummeting The House of Saud and it’s Bank ( the US of A and its Petro Dollar ) seem to be a bit financially embarrassed at the moment.
Meanwhile Iran and Venezuela can’t extract a loan from the IMF because Computer says No – meaning if the Great Satan says No then No means No.
Having an idiot in charge of afurther group of idiots doesn’t help either.
They make Putin look like an Evil Genius.
Putin’s clever – but like Cummings not as clever as he thinks he is.
Bullshit Loony
Tatyana
They will blame you for having Russian parents, absolute crime, you lot breeding, you know. They tried to stop you doing it in the 1990s, but that he-devil Putin has encouraged you all to have bigger families since 2000.
Scandalous.
Checked Lea’s entry on Wiki, the first listing https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lea_Gabrielle&type=revision&diff=648002355&oldid=586566173 said she parachuted “with the Golden Knights” a typo that made me laugh. Nothing good will come from her pen.
I notice that when hacker groups are mentioned (in the UK or US), they are always suspected to be Russian, Chinese, North Korean or sometimes Iran. This seems highly improbable to me…
They got their £20m grant early on, perhaps they have no need to comment publicly, now they have had their ‘bung’ out of coronavirus?
Paul, very good point about Porton Down.Recently members of U.K. government have been saying stuff along the lines of
” When this has eased off, China will have to be held to account”
It is unclear to me if the UK can tap into the EU’s relief fund – if it could I would have thought supported Craig’s case for extending the transition period though I have assumed Rishi Sunak’s outlays come from independent sources as it were, which could be presented as a reason for no extension which I am sure Johnson still wants and will be angling for. The EU package is described as:
“decision by the ECB to make 750 billion Euros available adds to Parliament’s calls, to the measures of the Commission, to those of the States, to possible additional initiatives, such as mobilizing another 500 billion from the European Stability Mechanism, the so-called bailout fund. We are talking about an intervention that, overall, is close to two trillion euros. The greatest demonstration of the power of European solidarity ever seen. Stronger even than the Marshall plan, the programme that helped us get back from the ruins of World War II”. (Statement by EU president). Irrespective of that it would make more sense for countries to rebuild their economies together with common policies that might just for example add stimulus to green initiatives – the environmental impact of national lockdowns should benefit the environment which could be built on, I would have thought.
good points about the initally slow EU response, but which ends up as an appropriately large support package for those inside the EU perimeter. (there has been quite a bit of “reputation management” nudging, earlier on this thread, from anti-EU elements)
I noticed a few MSM media this morning also being nudged, that democracy and safety for our political life, in UK/USA now relies on us pivoting to digital voting. Remote electronic voting. Open to massive abuse by the hackers of the Intelligence Community (& “Putin”)
Facemasks & Cygnus PPE first please, before you try and steal what’s left of democracy.
DO NOT ACCEPT digital “postal vote, ballot stuffing, everywhere, for ever”
Westminster & the country should head to virus-safe (but cyber-unsafe) remote voting….
New ways, like electronic voting, must be prioritised
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/29/the-guardian-view-on-covid-19-and-politics-institutionally-vulnerable
it’s always the DEMS who want digital, with their tame IC team?
Richard Blumenthal, the Democratic senator from Connecticut, has suggested more absentee or remote voting could be used to make sure voting happens safely
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/29/coronavirus-could-affect-us-election-mail-electronic-voting/
As people on this thread are seemingly making-up stuff,
‘does a face mask work?’
(Yes) when a doctor uses it to prevent from taking a high viral load
(no) when a civilian puts it on badly, touches their face a lot – due the unfamiliarity of a mask etc
I do wear one in Lombardia, to avoid me potentially spreading, should I actually have something, and partly it is now a badge that “We are all involved”
Back to naked politics, which shouldn’t get overlooked in this time of homogeneous media panic
The war against the “orange idiot” is still underway, I forced myself to watch half-an-hour of CNN today, they got in quite a lot of anti-trump nudges, and somehow about 40 minutes of adverts pushing their own integrity. An initiative that does not reflect the quiet, actual news reporting from say, Judicial Watch.
Reported accurately here by a US conservative website, who still seems to have some bandwidth
https://dailycaller.com/2020/03/10/farrell-spygate-could-make-watergate-look-like-a-third-rate-burglary/
And breaking news, that I doubt will make the BBC, Albania has just flown a relief cargo into Italy, lots of doctors and nurses too, plus many front-line protection suits – apparently Chinese – which are also being supplied to España. Read widely.
Two doctors have already died whilst this hapless administration still can’t get PPE to frontline staff and the too little too late measures are half heartedly implemented. This hapless administration should resign and a government of national unity formed. Parliament must reconvene through virtual conferencing we cannot have a regime without checks rule at this dangerous juncture.
BORIS MUST RESIGN.
SA – look – I would have liked to have seen Corbyn winning the last election – but the Labour party shot itself in the foot (at least the Blairite wing decided that they would prefer to see Johnson than Corbyn in number 10). The election would never have taken place if Sturgeon hadn’t understood the potential scale of the damage to the SNP following the Salmond trial (and hence that the SNP would do markely less well if the election were postponed) and if the SNP hadn’t voted in favour of the election.
Johnson won – pure and simple – and it is no use saying `oh Johnson told lies’ (everybody knew that Johnson was a serial liar) and it is no use saying `oh the Johnson government is incompetent’ (this was well understood).
The `Johnson should resign’ mantra looks dead wrong. We first need a decent Labour party.
I personally think that the Labour party should split – those favouring Corbyn in one party and the Blairites in another. We need a serious alternative to Johnson before we start calling for Johnson to resign.
You are forgetting the terrible attacks on Corbyn and the widespread false anti-semitism smearing led by Hodge, Smeeth, Ryan et al.
And then there’s the postal ballots…?
The smears on Corbyn would have had little traction with the voters if he had honoured Brexit, but once he de facto promoted Remain, all the smears about putting foreigners first rang true and sunk him.
Which shames those who voted against him, not him.
I don’t think its a question of shame, for Labour voters in the vital Labour held seats, Brexit was the priority, the rest, Palestine, Ireland, Venezuela, (important as they are) mostly irrelevant, and a politician can get away with the rest as long as they stay on-side with their voters on central patriotic issues, which he failed to do.
I disagree strongly. The AS smears were swallowed hook line and sinker by the people, such was the concerted amount of propaganda that was being put out, especially by the audio visual media
Greg Philo explains. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/10/labour-party-antisemitism-claims-jeremy-corbyn
That is utter rubbish, Dave, the publ7cs comment at the door, and I have done bit of leafletting and canvassing, essentially trod out the same messages that were printed in the hobnail msm, bbc and on sky, amplified hundteds of times.
There is not a natural majority for a working class party (Blair’s solution was to create a middle class party, alternatively support voting reform), but the Labour vote has always held up against hostile MSM coverage.
I agree the smears against Corbyn were outrageous and unprecedented (and very revealing), requiring a response, but back-ground noise to the voters who could see through it or didn’t care, and easily rebuffed with a calm “I support peace not war”, but it was effective within the Parliamentary Labour Party as Zionists sabotaged Corbyn under guise of Remain, but his decision to go neutral (after nearly all the cabinet and MPs went for Remain), finished him off.
Bearing in mind the Labour vote did hold up, (better than many previous elections) but collapsed in those vital Labour held Brexit seats. No doubt the London Remainers thought they would lose their seats, if Labour supported Brexit. Unlikely but they were suffering from another panic.
Mary – well, the `anti-Semitism’ was completely transparent – I think that everybody saw what the game was – nowadays `anti-Semitism’ simply means raising valid questions about what the Israelis are doing to Palestine and I think that this was completely clear.
Of course – I don’t live in the UK any more, so I do miss a lot an I can’t be bothered watching or reading Main Stream Media – which probably doesn’t help my perspective.
I did see Corbyn doing well in the election against May. I did see a campaign against Johnson that was much, much worse and I attribute that entirely to the Blairite wing of the Labour party.
James
I don’t know whether you realise how dire the situation is. This man is incompetent to deal with this crisis. Look he even got himself infected.
The emergency now calls for less centralized power as the government has given itself great powers and Dominic Cummings is deciding the fate of the country. I really don’t care who takes over, even if it is Jeremy Hunt or someone else. We must get rid of this cabal of brexiters first.
I agree with you about Corbyn and with Mary. But reforming or splitting the Labour party now will only destroy any vestige of opposition.
But I am even question the legitimacy of the Tory win, not only by lying and smearing Corbyn but by actually stealing the elections, something that does not seem to have gained traction but please look at this
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/elections-aftermath-was-our-2019-vote-the-eu-referendum-rigged-toryrig2019/
Kim has done sterling work looking at this and others have contributed. Even if not all of this is not true, it is true that the electoral system is not fit for purpose. We end up with a virtual dictatorship by a moron and his evil adviser.
The emperor has no clothes. BORIS MUST RESIGN.
You should go read CJ Hopkins’ article ‘Reclaiming your Inner Fascist’.
You seem to have reclaimed yours good and proper.
Contempt for elections, contempt for referenda, contempt for anything but your own narrow selfish beliefs.
@ Rhys Jaggar March 30, 2020 at 08:59
Non-accepting of an electoral system unfit for purpose, largely run by a private firm with a Tory, Peter Lilley, a non-Executive Director.
Lambasting a system primed for corruption is hardly a manifestation of Fascism.
The electoral system is indeed unfit for purpose, but it does deliver vastly more SNP MPs than is justified by a fit-for-purpose one. It delivers far fewer Libdems, UKIP/Brexit Party and Green MPs too.
You merely saying that all elections are fixed does not make them so.
By far the greatest electoral frauds by postal voting have been manifested by the Labour Party, notably in Tower Hamlets and parts of Birmingham.
I notice you are very quick on insulting others. But in fact here you have scored an own goal. If I remember correctly it is the same Rhys Jagger who has contempt for academia, contempt for scientists and so on. It has now reached a point of contempt for facts.
For such an anti-establishment figure as you I am surprised that you have quoted an article that actually encourages contempt for the very same things you accuse me of contempt for. So why quote the article? You obviously did not understand what it is trying to say.
SA – well – as I said above (response to Mary) I don’t live in the UK any more, so I do miss things. I also can’t be bothered reading or watching `Main Stream Media’ so I also miss that. So perhaps I am missing just how dire the situation is.
As far as Brexiters go – I entirely agree with you about Tory Brexiters – but I’m not against Brexit in and of itself. I spent 13 years in Sweden. When I first moved there, I thought `what a nice country’. It seemed a much more equal society and their brand of socialism seemed to work. When I left, it was nothing like the country it had been – inequality was much greater and they seemed to have embraced `anglo-saxon free market capitalism’ in a dismal way. If I were still there, I would vote `Vänsterpartiet’. I do think that when Carl Bildt (of the Moderaterna = the Swedish Tories) took them into the EU, he probably felt that his job was done. He understood that he didn’t have to win another election to see Tory policies implemented; by joining the EU, he understood that even if the Social Democrats won every election in the future, they would be bound by EU rules and regulations to follow an `Anglo-Saxon free market capitalism’ model – and that basically has proved to be the case.
So while a Tory Brexit is clearly a disaster, I think that Brexit under Corbyn (if his party permitted him to be Corbyn) could have worked out quite well.
The aim should, first and foremost, have been to beat the Tories (membership of the EU under the Tories is bad; a Tory Brexit is even worse).
I’m inclined to agree with you about the electoral system.
James,
I believe that had Labour won the last election, there would have been a move to get rid of Corbyn and overturn the Brexit. However, the Labour party was in such disarray, with infighting, identity politics, conflicting aims, they simply committed political suicide.
Anyone suggesting that the election was in any way fixed, should take a trip to the Labour heartlands and talk to people, because Labour has left them behind.
I’ve just been told, by a Brexit supporting Tory voter friend (yes, I have them: we usually avoid politics), that Boris is a hero, is loved by the British people and the Tories will be in power for the next 25 years.
Oh, and that immigrants are to blame for the Government failing to test widely. Apparently, since we don’t know exactly how many people are in the country, testing would be pointless….
I am not sure I agree with that.
Most people who wanted Brexit would have voted for quite a few parties if they actually promised to deliver it. Labour absolutely refused to, the Libdems said ‘Bollocks to it’ and Caroline Lucas would ask the Queen to step down in favour of Ursula van der Leyen.
Boris got elected because he promised to ‘Get Brexit Done’.
I remain to be convinced that his support is much more than luke warm for much beyond that.
People certainly were not impressed by him as Foreign Secretary, nor his handling of Novichok.
Rhys Jaggar
That is a very realistic take on the situation and one which I wholeheartedly agree with.
@ SA
A VIRTUAL government of national unity!!! It clearly is getting worse before it gets better.
Hello!
I am from Germany and apparently the British press reports that Germany was particularly capable of dealing with the Corono crisis.
This is not true.
1. The numbers of victims who died from Corona in Germany is particularly low because Germany does not test those who died before they were diagnosed with Corona.
2. Likely the statistics of people who died from Corona is wrong … fake … purposefully manipulated.
See here:
Title: “Who is supposed to believe in those statistics?”
https://sciencefiles.org/2020/03/10/covid-19-update-wer-soll-diesen-zahlen-glauben/
Because Germany has nearly as many infected people as France but allegedly only 1/10 of death in comparison to France. So the French die at a 10 times higher rate than Germans? That is simply no believable.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
3. Germany is very ill-equipped and not prepared at all. We don’t have enough ventilators and we have only 20.000 beds in the intensive care unit and only 4.000 – 6.000 of those beds are free anyway. We don’t have enough faces masks either and both hospitals as well as police lack equipment. And for a while even pharmacies had run out of desinfectants.
4. The German health minister as well as the director of the Robert-Koch-Institute still don’t say that face masks do help. That is probably wrong. Even home made cloth face masks do help (a little). The help you that you don’t get the virus. And they help that you don’t spread the virus if you are infected unknowingly.
5. Germany did close its airports very very late. So high-risk people from Iran where the Corona crisis is rampant did travel to Germany without being checked at all. Not even fever checks at the airport.
6. Apparently you don’t get tested if you have the symptoms. You get tested only if you had contact to an infected person of if you have recently travelled to a high-risk region. There are reports from people who tried to get tested and it was a nightmare. There are telephone numbers you are supposed to call and apparently nobody answers or even if you get somebody on the phone you don’t get the test.
7. Don’t believe in anything you read in the Germany official press. We don’t have a free press, sadly.
Different countries are counting things in different ways. Some are counting anyone who dies with the virus in them as having died of the virus, others not. Some are counting the number of people who show up looking for treatment as the number of infected people. Nobody knows how many people in the general population are infected in most countries. So the stats are dodgy and it is impossible to compare one country with another.
So according to you we have shuttered vast swathes of the economy and destroyed or materially impaired the lives of countless people on the basis that “no-one knows how many people are infected” and “the stats are dodgy and it is impossible to compare one country with another”
Surely this can’t be right. Who would shut down entire economies on a basis of having no meaningful knowledge to underpin their decision.
This kind of stuff makes David Icke sound sane.
Surely this can’t be right. Who would shut down entire economies on a basis of having no meaningful knowledge to underpin their decision
It is actually correct, that all of the nCov-19 statistics[1] are fairly meaningless. Completely different methods of compilation, completely different values of “transparency”[2] , and assume (as a start) that all figures for “infected” are at least ten times bigger than shown.
The economies are shutdown to prevent potential worst-case scenarios from occouring, on the basis of modelling from the best available statistics. UK establishment allegedly knew in January, obfuscate, “ramping-up” seems to be today’s buzz-word.
[1] excellent site, one of the best available, don’t trust everything: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
[2] UK death figures, is 11=31? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/29/coronavirus-questions-true-death-toll-london-hospital-records/
The UK currently tests only those patients admitted into hospital with symptoms of CV. They will only be admitted if their symptoms are serious.
Given that large numbers of those infected by CV will be asymptomatic, will never present at hospital, and are therefore not currently tested, by what token can the UK govt be possibly said to “know how many people (in the UK) are infected”?
Absolutely no-one knows how many people in the UK are infected – and yet they have put the entire country on lockdown, and “shuttered vast swathes of the economy and destroyed or materially impaired the lives of countless people”.
“Who would shut down entire economies on a basis of having no meaningful knowledge to underpin their decision”?
The UK Government for one.
The knowledge they *do* have, however, is that the long-neglected and deliberately under-resourced National Health Service will be totally unable to cope with the sudden influx of seriously ill patients who have begun to present with CV symptoms.
A refusal to act on the results of previous pandemic simulations and maintain a substantial stockpile of protective equipment, even if solely rationalised from a National Defence point of view, has exacerbated the crisis.
These are the reasons for the lockdown and social isolation measures – it’s certainly not a response to precise figures for communal infection.
In spite of these measures, extra fatalities above the norm will likely result, especially amongst medical personnel, even if it’s found that there is not a massive impact on normal death rates amongst the elderly, many of whom will die with CV, rather than of CV.
Of course, emphasis on the public’s response to the lockdown, rather than the chronic, criminal, neglect of the NHS, and shameful lack of PPE, means that the government, and its pet advisors, will be able to deflect the blame onto us for any failure to rapidly contain the outbreak, rather than themselves.
Yeah who can disagree with your explanation.
I still don’t believe that such vast swathes of the economy would be shuttered based on the known facts regarding Coronavirus. Naturally if you don’t believe the official story then you must believe some form of conspiracy theory. My preferred conspiracy theory is that this is all being used as a cover to introduce some form of MMT. Something that presumably will meet with your approval. I guess time will tell as to how all this works out.
To Loony (very apt monicker by the way)
Mr Shigemitsu went to great trouble earlier on in this thread to explain MMT and pointed out that it is a Description not a Prescription and as such describes the current economic situation re. countries with fiat currencies. Being a description of the current situation, it therefore cannot be “introduced” as it already exists as the present economic setup in those countries. He can explain concepts to you but unfortunately he can’t understand them for you, that’s up to you.
German Girl
You obviously have much more local information but I just wanted to make two points:
“3. Germany is very ill-equipped and not prepared at all. We don’t have enough ventilators and we have only 20.000 beds in the intensive care unit and only 4.000 – 6.000 of those beds are free anyway. We don’t have enough faces masks either and both hospitals as well as police lack equipment. And for a while even pharmacies had run out of disinfectants.”
Yes maybe but in UK we only have 4000 ITU beds of which 3000 were occupied before the epidemic. You have at least 4-6 times as many ITU beds as we do. You also have much more local manufacturing capacity in Germany we have none, we don’t make our own ventilators.
The second point I heard from the press that Germany concentrated on social distancing of the elderly and much wider testing early on. This has meant picking up a lot of milder cases in younger people and this explains the low mortality to case detection ratio. In UK we only test the severe cases and we were late in social distancing so we are bound to have higher mortality to case detected ratio.
These factors are what makes comparison between countries difficult.
But this is one of the problems in the West. We have focussed on treatment rather than prevention. The earlier you do prevention the better the chance to succeed. This would mean: closing the borders, to reduce influx of cases, rigorous screening of those entering with temperature monitoring, swab detection of virus and quarantining of all newcomers. It also mean very widespread detection of cases however mild, quarantining of these cases in special facilities, contact detection, testing and isolation, and of course strict social isolation. This means total curfew: no travel to work except essential services, no shopping, no outdoor exercising, nothing, just stay at home. If you put all the resources on treatment you will fail.
Of course the above measures are very intensive and means organised support from the government to provide facilities for extensive quarantine, for delivery of food to the population and to enforce social isolation and for this the west is very ill prepared because of the belief in small government which relies on charity and voluntary organisations. China, a centralised government has been able to do this, we can’t.
So each country has adopted partial policies towards prevention and these have failed to lesser and greater extent and the reliance on treatment only is a loser.
“we don’t make our own ventilators.”
That’s not quite true:
“Breas Medical Ltd, based in Stratford-Upon-Avon, Warwickshire, manufacture medical ventilators and airway clearance devices. We strive to deliver high-quality and innovative products and support.”
And the UK can rise to the occasion if it has to:
“UK manufacturers such as Vauxhall and Airbus are planning to 3D-print parts for ventilators to treat coronavirus patients, as part of a “wartime” effort to build thousands of medical devices that will be overseen by a management consultancy.
More than 60 companies began responding on Tuesday to a request from Boris Johnson, made during a conference call on Monday evening, to help produce 20,000 ventilators in as little as two weeks.”
Graun, Mar 17th.
Where there’s a will….
I think when the British claim that Germany is particularly capable it is likely true on a comparative basis.
According to your post Germany has 20,000 intensive care beds. By contrast the UK has less than 6,000 intensive care beds.
Germany has 3.4 Doctors per 1,000 people. The UK has 2.2.
@ German Girl March 30, 2020 at 08:20
‘…Don’t believe in anything you read in the Germany official press. We don’t have a free press, sadly.’
As Udo Ulfkotte explained in his book ‘Gekaufte Journalisten: Wie Politiker, Geheimdienste und Hochfinanz Deutschlands Massenmedien lenken’.
Wasn’t there also a serious issue with massive underreporting of mad cow disease? Like zero cases reported. The very wise man who trained me as a steelmaker taught me that “paper takes on anything”. Facts and reporting are not the same thing.
Hi German Girl.
I have just read through the site and some of its features. There are no peer reviewed cases, bar a Dil. r.habil.Heike Breitenbach.
What do science files have to do with marketing /branding gender ideologies?
schoenen Dank im Voraus.
German Girl
That is a really good analysis of what is happening, and I had heard of the way in which Germany counts deaths by Coronavirus. Your other point about Iran Air flights is so important and one which I have made time and time again on this blog. The last Iran Air flight into Heathrow was Sunday 29th, just two days ago and there is another flight scheduled for today. This is simply madness, as no checks are really carried out on landing and asymptomatic passengers will simply go unnoticed.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ir711#244a6fa5
David Icke is of the opinion that the Covid-19 pandemic is no such thing and is merely a scare story. Most intelligent people pay little attention to David Icke and rely for information on respected organizations such as the WHO. Here is the WHO reassuring its audience that Covid-19 is not an airborne disease
https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1243972193169616898
Most intelligent people are naturally disposed to take seriously peer reviewed research emanating from Princeton University, UCLA and the Nationa Institute for Health and published in the New England Journal of Medicine.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-coronavirus-airborne-will-it-live-in-my-bathroom-is-it-ok-to-fly-or-eat-out-are-men-more-susceptible-busting-myths-and-confirming-facts-of-covid-19-2020-03-12
…and so we discover that Covid-19 is simultaneously airborne and not airborne. A most peculiar disease. Naturally the ability of the virus to be airborne at the same time that it is not airborne provides conclusive proof that David Icke is a dangerous fantasist.
How much difference would it make if we really were being run by shape shifting alien lizard creatures?
It all depends on whether the shape shifting alien lizard creatures are airborne contemporaneously with their being glued to the floor.
Loony
I swore not to answer your provocative and ill informed posts but I couldn’t resist debunking this one.
In medical terms a disease is either disseminated by droplets, large particles of snot, saliva and so on which have a projection distance of about a metre, resulting from sneezing and coughing and rapidly drop to the ground or surfaces. Airborne disease on the other hand are those which are aerosolised and are much smaller particles, also generated by the same sneezing and coughing. Because they are much smaller and lighter they persist in the air for a long time. The difference is if you come into a room when someone sneezed they would have had to sneeze directly at you for you to catch it, that is droplet infection. If they sneezed a few minutes before you came in, you would only catch the disease if it was airborne and this is not the case with SARS-Cov 2.
But the reason why I chose to break my vow of silence is this. Your case is highly illustrative of the saying that ‘some knowledge is dangerous’. Most people are not really equipped to look at scientific data and analyse it and make total sense. It takes several years to train a scientist and 6 years to train Doctors. Sadly in the Google era, most people including journalists have decided to become experts in all fields just by Googling. When you are faced with these apparently contradictory statements, please be kind enough to look a bit more behind these reports, but then you wouldn’t be Loony would you.
Your argument is not with me. It is with Princeton University, UCLA, and the National Institute for Health. They all disagree with your analysis.
I have made no comment at all beyond asking people to consider whether it is possible for a disease to the airborne contemporaneously with it not being airborne. In order to make this comment I need no scientific knowledge at all, with the ability to understand the meaning of words being a sufficient precondition.
Equally I need no scientific knowledge to recall that on January 14th the WHO disseminated its opinion that with regard to Covid-19 there was limited evidence of human to human transmission. This was manifestly false.
Finally I think you will find that the word “snot” is not really the kind of word habitually used in a scientific or medical setting.
I suggest you look at this article from Wired, discussing the difference between droplet and airborne spread. The separation between the two forms is artificial, simply an investigative way of differentiating between various modes of transfer. There is no real evidence to prove that in the real world a good sneeze can not aerosolise a good proportion of virus. In fact from the speed of spread of this virus I have thought that it spreads effectively as an airborne disease. I have been campaigning to get windows kept open at all times on public transport – with little success, despite writing to my MP. Yet this precaution could be taken at no cost.. The mindset seems to be fixated on droplets. Even though the NHS advice is to increase ventilation in a home where one person is affected.
NHS advice here.
try to keep 2 metres (3 steps) away from each other
avoid using shared spaces, such as kitchens or bathrooms, at the same time as each other
open windows in shared spaces if you can
https://www.wired.com/story/they-say-coronavirus-isnt-airborne-but-its-definitely-borne-by-air/
Kate you are right of course, the division is artificial and obviously there is a spectrum. I guess what is being said is that droplets are more efficient than aerosols at spreading the disease, and this may be the case in Covid-19. But as you know this is a new disease and therefore there is bound to be conflicting studies.
Of course sneezing produces aerosols but the question is as to whether the virus survives in these small aerosolised particles, that is the difference between the studies.
re airborne and droplets.
The size of viruses is difficult for most people to understand.
I remember walking down union street in Aberdeen in the run up to Christmas on a damp very frosty day when I was aware(because it could be seen) that essentially I was inhaling the water vapour/air from other peoples lungs, trachea mouths and ancillary parts that they exhaled.It was impossible to evade this second hand air/vapour. I wondered at the time if this was the main mode of transmission of colds and flu viruses i.e were atmospheric conditions significant in virus transmission.A typical droplet of water is extremely large compared to a virus particle. I recently saw it reported that an infective dose may be as little as three particles.
If the particles can be airborne(likelydue to their small size)-in other words held up in the air by the brownian motion caused by the collisions of gas molecules in the air, for any length of time (they will eventually succumb to gravity of course) then in any setting where the airborne particle reach a certain concentration suitable for the transmission of the virus, we can see why this distinction(airborne/water droplets) is important and why it might exercise the minds of scientists.
My intuition is that water droplets bearing thousands of virus particles is the much more likely mode of infection. The circumstances for the virus particles being transmitted by being airborne seem very unlikely. It would require very propitious atmospheric conditions(extremelydry) still air, and a high concentration of virus shedding people to get the virus up to the required number.One would also assume that sunlight would eradicate the virus particles after some exposure
Thanks DGP
You explain it extremely well.
“I remember walking down union street in Aberdeen in the run up to Christmas on a damp very frosty day when I was aware(because it could be seen) that essentially I was inhaling the water vapour/air from other peoples lungs, trachea mouths and ancillary parts that they exhaled”
We are all breathing in air that was exhaled by Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Queen Victoria, Hitler, Napoleon and Elvis!
Exciting, isn’t it?
Loony
March 30, 2020 at 09:46
“I have made no comment at all beyond asking people to consider whether it is possible for a disease to the airborne contemporaneously with it not being airborne.”
………………………………………………………………………………….
Loony, I have read some serious scientific works that propose that cats can be dead and alive at the same time. That is, until your wavefunction collapses.
The current crisis has actually accelerated Brexit. And is increasing the centrifugam forces on the EU. There won’t be anything to stay in. I’ll give it another year, two tops.
And if it doesn’t explode, it means the EU will really have become the dictatorship Eurasia.
In fact Brexit is a mass form of ‘social distancing’.
No it is not.
It may be a form of ‘legislative distancing’, but there was never any intention of stopping UK and EU citizens visiting each others’ countries on holiday, on business etc.
You coming up with cheap slogans like this does you absolutely no credit whatever.
Rhys Jaggar
Exactly Rhys, the fact is that I love Europe but increasingly detest the corrupt machinations of the EU, Hopefully some time in the future which I have left, my wife and I will once again be able to experience the joys of Europe’s varied culture and scenery.
It does seem to be the case that different EU countries have adopted their own measures for dealing with the virus which gives lie to the idea that all countries in the EU are subject to Brussels rule and have lost their national sovereignty. This does not mean that the EU is splitting apart and I am sure that its collective action will be seen to good effect in the recovery period. The UK in whatever form it is at that time will flounder if it attempts to go it alone or rely on USA connections for the latter will also be in tatters. Scotland will be better with the EU than without but can only achieve that with independence, which as I understand it is central to Craig’s argument here.
I don’t for no particular reason watch David Icke, but I have wondered if his promotion of the reptiles was a form self-skunking publicity (hence highlighted by MSM) and of plausible deniability at the time it was made for safety/legal reasons, so he could talk about our real rulers without naming them. I thought this when I noticed reptiles are the heraldry of the City of London!
@Dave
While Gog and Magog are supposedly the guardians of the City.
@ Kerchée Kerch’ee Coup March 30, 2020 at 10:40
Both reptilian imagery (note they virtually always have their tongues protruding, like snakes or seriously ‘mentally’ disturbed people) and false gods are indicative of the real Prince of this earth, Satan/Lucifer/ the Devil (it has many hats).
That’s where Icke goes wrong (apart from thinking he’s the Messiah); he mistakes demon worshiping people for shape-shifting reptilians. And yes, Demons can manifest as reptiles or angels, humans or hybrids, aliens or ‘Prophets’. I believe that was how the ‘shape-shifting reptilian fallacy’ came about.
“And yes, Demons can manifest as reptiles or angels, humans or hybrids, aliens or ‘Prophets’. I believe that was how the ‘shape-shifting reptilian fallacy’ came about.”
And because they are shape shifting you really can’t prove they are not shape shifting reptiles or demons. Very neat no evidence needed.
This may explain high death rate in Italy.
“A medical devices company has decided to sue a bunch of Italian volunteers who 3D printed valves for $1 due to shortages in supply, which is usually sold by that company for $11,000”
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/18/italians-found-way-3-d-print-key-ventilator-piece-1-help-battle-coronavirus-so?
@ Tatyana March 30, 2020 at 11:02
Thanks for that example, but it’s not just Italy. Worldwide, Big Pharma charge way over the top for medications and equipment, including in Britain, but the States must be the worst.
Let’s hope the Italian Socialist government (I think they have such a thing, not sure) takes that firm to court for gross profiteering at the cost of the Italian population once the Cocid – 19 business has calmed down, and introduces a department to assess such exorbitant profiteering, not just in health but in all fields.
Today,according to radio 4’s propaganda channel, people have been stopped and fined for wanting to shop for ‘non essential items’.
What if somebody decides to do a bit of DIY and gets a bath and taps etc., to while away his boredom/solitude?
what if Tarquin wants to stock up on 12 gauge ammunition to go pheasant shooting?
This is an open book and potential flashpoint that could ignite whole communities in a day!
I can’t anywhere find a list or guidance as to what non essential items could have brought the SS out in these officers. Are local police and crime commissioners asking their officers to ‘get fining’, bring in some revenue as there are only a minimum of cars on the road that can be stopped for bold tyres and or caught in speed traps?
thanks in advance, I tried for two hours to find out.
Taxation revenues are certainly going to be going off a cliff, both direct income tax and VAT.
What do we have for entertainment beyond cops kicking gypsies on the pavement?
Why we have representatives of the British establishment attempting to kick the people in their faces. Naturally we have a call to delay the UK exit from the EU single market all dressed up as a mitigating strategy to repel the evil that is Coronavirus.
No mention that the EU single market is designed to aid German mercantilism. In this regard it has been highly successful with Germany standing as the worlds second largest net exporter and Germany recording the worlds largest trade surplus. All this means that Germany is an exporting powerhouse with the financial and technical muscle to bind together the entirety of the EU Single Market. Strange then at the first sign of trouble Germany acts to limit its own exports of medical equipment – equipment which is much needed by its single market partners,
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban
The sneering contempt and visceral loathing that the British establishment displays toward the people is something to behold.
@ Loony March 30, 2020 at 11:39
‘..No mention that the EU single market is designed to aid German mercantilism…’
Just as there was no word that WWI was planned from 1905 and deliberately induced by Rhodes, Milner, Churchill, and the rest of the ‘Secret Elite’ including Royalty and Banksters ‘..to prevent German mercantilism…’
I prefer Paul Wellar’s view:
“Hello – Hooray – I prefer the Plague-
To the Eton Rifles – Eton rifles ”
We now have Two Plagues sadly.
Bacteria across the world and the Bacteria that resides in suits.
Expensive Suits
For ten years we have been told how austerity is essential to put the country back on a sound financial condition.
What austerity is required will they tell us know. Will we have rationing again food banks for us all. Who knows what the future holds.
Police enforced lock down
The operation may be declared a success
But sadly the patient will die.
How the slave masters love it when there slaves put on there own chains.
Most obediently obey what they are told. When I tell people I meet that it is all bollocks. They reply I believe what the government tells me.
So I reply If the latest government edict is that you should stand on one leg and whistle Dixie would you obey. I get a puzzled looks they think I am mad.
Do you really need someone to tell you what kind of austerity is necessary?
Surely the fact that you have shuttered most of your economy should be a good indication that actual goods and services are likely to be in short supply.
well, will you go and knock Hugh Pym’s block off then? How about bumping off Laura Kuennsberg and Fiona Bruce?
You know: the BBC’s weapons of mass destruction?
Acceptable Collateral Damage??
Yes Boris Johnson “get brexit done” needs to be put on hold, Covid_19 may put a stop to it, the latest figures looking dire https://worldcoronavirus.org/ but this crazy gov. you never know !
Bit of good news:
‘Mercedes F1 and University College London engineers develop new coronavirus breathing device that means patients do not need intensive care beds – and they could be in hospitals within DAYS’:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8166455/Formula-One-Mercedes-engineers-University-College-make-new-coronavirus-breathing-device-4-days.html
Paul Barbara
A CPAP machine – been using one for 17 years. I always wondered if mine would help me if I got a dose of the plague.
https://www.rt.com/russia/484463-majority-of-new-covid-19-young/
says that the age distribution of cases emerging in Russia is very different to previous data from places like China and Italy.
It does beg the question: is this a mutated strain, a novel strain, or is there something unique to Russian society that has changed this profile so significantly?
I would certainly assume it was a novel/mutated strain until proven otherwise.
The article you reference is full of holes, 1. the numbers are not sufficient to make valid inferences and 2. it lacks information about nature of the illness.i.e. It does not give any indication of the mortality in different age groups. I think the Chinese/Italian findings are that the serious form of pneunomia develops in older people probably, due to an age diminished immune response or pre-existing conditions. Young people get the disease but recover readily without developing lethal illness and being younger tend to have fewer underlying health conditions.
I agree with what you say, but the article does say that the younger people are needing mechanical support with breathing ,which suggests it is rather more serious than a mild dose of flu.
There is more than a certain /hypocrisy in Johnson closing down much of the economy, and potentially putting millions out of work, because of the seriousness of the coronavirus, while himself apparently feeling well enough to continue in his job as Prime Minister while suffering from that virus. So is the virus serious for an overweight man in his mid-50s or isn’t it? I sense that we’re all being played, and that agendas other than public health are at the forefront.
Although I take a similar half-out position to Brexit as Craig, I voted Remain because I sensed something ‘wrong’ in how the case for Leave was presented in the referendum campaign, and also in the disreputable characters who were mostly pushing it. My feelings of unease deepened during May’s premiership – with deadline after deadline pushing the country to the brink, and general threats and gaslighting by the Conservative Party and their client media.
This coronavirus crisis has only deepened my suspicions that we are being run by a government controlled by people trying to undermine the country and, perhaps even, that there is some kind of scorched-earth policy going on. The government’s coronavirus narrative simply doesn’t add up.
Losing our freedoms for a collective hysteria or pandemic?
It’s certainly all under control, just read the documents…
I’m sure you’ll find all your answers concerning UK Johnson/May/Cameron government preparedness assuaged in places like this 2017 pdf (from the Welsh Powys Teaching Health Board)
They said sensible things like
Civil Contingencies Act 2004
The CCA places 5 statutory duties upon Category 1 responders, these being:
assess the risks of emergencies;
have in place emergency plans;
establish business continuity management arrangements;
have in place arrangements to warn, inform and advise members of
the public;
share information, cooperate and liaise with other local responders.
The risk of an influenza pandemic remains one of the highest threats to the resilience of the United Kingdom. That last bit looks as though they were seriously getting prepared in 2016/2017
And
UK’s Pandemic Influenza Framework is divided into specific planning areas to highlight the key issues that need to be considered in the event of a pandemic. These include:
A1: Workforce and Organisational Development Issues
A2: Personal Protective Equipment
A3: Primary Care
A4: Community Care Services
A5: Corporate Services A6: Antivirals
A7: Vaccination
A8: Logistics
A9: Recovery
A10 Command and Control Structures
Great to see that everyone was highlighting Pandemic need A2: Personal Protective Equipment In 2016/2017, so long ago….
http://www.powysthb.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/1145/Board%5FItem%5F2.6%5F%20Pandemic%20flu%20Annual%20Report.pdf
Oh, government preparedness 🙂
here is the joke from russian source:
“When the plague comes, the best people of the country will go to the bunkers, until better times. At this moment the main thing to do is to weld the door. Of course, just in order to protect them from accidental infection
https://pikabu.ru/story/bessrochnyiy_karantin_7322502
p.s. those who understand russian may like the comments under
Are you ignoring the fact that there are different tiers of healthcare in Britain, depending on what class you belong to? That might explain why royals, celebrities and politicians pull through this just fine. Meanwhile, urgent treatment in hospitals is cancelled or postponed for thousands, because the system was so badly damaged after the last ten years. Historians of the future will no doubt scratch their heads in astonishment as to why the British people tolerated such a government for so long.
If they do their research properly they’ll discover it was down to relentless demonization of the opposition and the fact a far higher proportion of the elderly voted than any other age cohort.
True enough, but they will still be gobsmacked by how a supposedly educated voting public allowed this to happen, and utterly gobsmacked still more by why the youth did not use their common sense and topple such a lawless government, as was their right, spelled out long ago in 1215.
I have to say that I am a little more impressed with The Guardian for doing its job finally.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/uk-discussed-joint-eu-plan-to-buy-covid-19-medical-supplies-say-officials
The Brexit government has now been caught again in yet another lie, but a lie containing a lot of blood this time
‘After critics accused Boris Johnson of putting “Brexit over breathing”, Downing Street clarified that missing out was an error and it would consider participating in future.’
The troglodytic ‘Brexit or nothing’ attitude, once again! Reminds me of all those cartoons showing May and Boris on the precipice of hell. So far, this Tory Brexit petty-mindedness has killed nearly 1500 British souls. How many more? And how many more deaths are we not hearing about?