Mark Hirst, a former senior SNP staffer at Holyrood, is being criminally prosecuted under the 2003 Communications Act for saying this:
These women, and not just these women, some of the people involved in this are senior members of the Scottish Government, senior members of the SNP, and they have been involved in this active collusion to try and destroy Alex Salmond’s reputation and there’s not a cat’s chance in hell that they are going to get away with that.
So they’re going to reap a whirlwind, no question about it, that’s going to happen as soon as this virus emergency is out of the way, then there is going to be a bit of reckoning takes place and we’ll clear out the soft independence supporters which are currently leading the party, that’s why we’ve seen no movement in nearly six years and we’re going to claim the party back, get the country back on course for Independence but to do that we are going to have to wade through what’s left of this leadership and get them out of the way, which I am confident that we’ll do.
The Crown is making the ludicrous charge that this is a statement of a “menacing character”. Mark is being charged under the Communications Act 2003 Para 127 (1)(A)
The Crown Office has been briefing its favourite tame journalist at the Times on the charges against Mark Hirst. You will recall that when I was charged with Contempt of Court, I was contacted by the Times immediately after the police left my home.
As the Times reports, the Crown office are briefing that Mark Hirst has been charged for stating that Salmond’s accusers would “reap the whirlwind”. Both the Times and the Crown Office are guilty of gross dishonesty in presenting that phrase out of the context, which context you can now see plainly in the above full quote. The Crown Office is dishonestly attempting to convey the impression that “reap the whirlwind” implied some personal or even violent vendetta against the conspirators, whereas what Mark Hirst was actually referring to was a political campaign to take back control of the SNP from scheming careerists.
In fact what Mark is saying has precisely the same import as this tweet of mine:
Deliberately to miscontrue a call to political action in opposition to a political grouping as an act of “menace” is state persecution which has profound implications. The prosecution of Mark Hirst is the act of an executive with major fascist leanings.
Mark is the journalist and friend to whom I referred that had five policemen enter his home and confiscate all his phones and laptops. It is far from plain why that action was necessary when he is being prosecuted for the contents of a video that he openly posted online. The provenance of his video is not in dispute: why would they need his phone and computers?
This seems another example of Police Scotland’s “fishing expedition” approach. Remember, the police who did this described themselves to Mark as the “Salmond Team”. The burning question is, why does Police Scotland still have a “Salmond Team” going around to terrorise people in their homes during a pandemic, even after Salmond’s acquittal?
That the decisions on who to prosecute are entirely political is conclusively demonstrated here and here.
I am sorry to say that it appears that the very notion of free speech is anathema to the current government of Scotland.
When we consider what they are doing against Mark Hirst and myself to attack free speech using the Contempt of Court Act 1982 and the Communications Act of 2003, we have to seriously worry about the new legislation currently going through the Scottish parliament specifically to limit freedom of speech.
On 23 April 2020 the Scottish Government introduced its Hate Crime and Public Order Bill into the Scottish Parliament. This vastly increases the amount of speech subject to criminal prosecution. It introduces new categories of protected characteristics, and gives Ministers powers to add new ones without going back to parliament. There is a specific power in the Bill for ministers to add “sex” as a protected characteristic, for example. Crucially it removes the need to prove intent embodied in current law. If you call someone an “old fool”, you will be committing a criminal offence even if you meant nothing by it and were just using a common phrase, age being a protected characteristic. Calling someone a “stupid boy” will similarly become illegal. To possess “inflammatory” material will specifically be a crime even if you had no intention to communicate it to others.
Richard III would very definitely be illegal under this legislation for anti-disabled prejudice. The Merchant of Venice would be illegal for anti-semitism. Once “sex” is added by Ministers, The Taming of the Shrew would be illegal for misogyny. I was glancing through The 39 Steps yesterday and was struck by a very anti-semitic passage I had forgotten was there. Is possessing John Buchan to be illegal? I can see nothing in the bill which would protect you from prosecution for possessing Buchan, if the Crown Office decided to go for you over it. Can you see any protection? Genuine question.
The Bill specifically includes performance. Politically incorrect jokes will become an actual criminal offence. Really. Pretty well every Carry On film ever made would now be illegal and subject its producers, writers and performers to possible imprisonment if made now. I quite accept that the mores of society change, and there is much in Carry On films society would find unacceptable now, but criminal? The Act moves matters of taste and disapproval firmly into the field of the police and the courts. It is a grossly authoritarian piece of legislation.
Once you have statutes in place that make telling a sexist joke a crime, you are dependent on the police and on prosecutors to apply the law in a sensible and liberal manner. But what the case of both Mark Hirst and myself makes plain – as indeed does the Alex Salmond case itself – is that Scotland does not have that at all. Scotland has politically controlled, vindictive and corrupt police and prosecutors who will, as the Mark Hirst case could not demonstrate more plainly, twist any law to the maximum to contrive a prosecution against those labeled as political enemies.
Mark Hirst is a good man. I realise so many of you dug very deep to fund my own defence, but I do urge those who are able to do so to support Mark, who also faces jail for the “crime” of political writing and with whom I stand shoulder to shoulder. My own defence fund has raised more than we need at the current stage of proceedings so it is my intention, absent major objection from you whose money it is, to transfer £10,000 from my defence fund to Mark’s.
——————————————
Unlike our adversaries including the Integrity Initiative, the 77th Brigade, Bellingcat, the Atlantic Council and hundreds of other warmongering propaganda operations, this blog has no source of state, corporate or institutional finance whatsoever. It runs entirely on voluntary subscriptions from its readers – many of whom do not necessarily agree with the every article, but welcome the alternative voice, insider information and debate.
Subscriptions to keep this blog going are gratefully received.
Choose subscription amount from dropdown box:
Paypal address for one-off donations: [email protected]
Alternatively:
Account name
MURRAY CJ
Account number 3 2 1 5 0 9 6 2
Sort code 6 0 – 4 0 – 0 5
IBAN GB98NWBK60400532150962
BIC NWBKGB2L
Bank address Natwest, PO Box 414, 38 Strand, London, WC2H 5JB
Subscriptions are still preferred to donations as I can’t run the blog without some certainty of future income, but I understand why some people prefer not to commit to that.
To paraphrase “All that’s left is to bayonet the wounded”
Now who said that and why is he not in jail ?
Former Glasgow, Labour MP, Ian Davidson in 2013. Ironically, Davidson wound up as a battlefield casualty in the 2015 GE. Schadenfreude is not an admirable trait but it can be a guilty pleasure.
I like your avatar, but here sits a Linux user since 1991.
So you’ve been sitting there since 1991? You must have pressure sores!
I’ve been a Linux user since 1994 and i thought I was an early adopter, but you put me in the shade. I was using Unix before that I but didn’t know anybody with hands on experience of Linux. Wow! Not worthy!
Two possible interpretations? Nonsense.
He is not being charged with anything like that.
” I was glancing through The 39 Steps yesterday and was struck by a very anti-semitic passage I had forgotten was there. Is possessing John Buchan to be illegal?”
Some characters in various of Buchan’s novels may be anti-Semitic, but it is unlikely he himself was.
https://www.ft.com/content/d88ce37c-c3d3-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675
It’s a reasonable debate. But the extreme anti-semitism of Scudder in 39 Steps is set in a narrative, and the whole plot of the book is that this narrative which sounds wild at first turns out to be true. Scudder is not an unsympathetic character. Hannay does point out to him the contradiction between his “jew anarchists” theory and his jew capitalist theory, but the authorial voice is at best ambiguous on the correctness of the Scudder anti-semitic narrative.
I don’t think we should shy away from noting anti-semitism in old works, just as we may note sexism, unfortunate attitudes towards domestic servants, homophobia, imperial racism etc. It does not invalidate the interest of the works nor their artistic merit; just as the Parthenon sculptures are no less beautiful for the being the product of a slave owning society. But historical awareness of the context is of course important.
By this reasoning, Mark Twain was a stone racist. Please let me assure you, he wasn’t.
According to that FT link (and the one below), the plot turns out to be a German one, not Jewish. Other readers have pointed this out as well. Simon Schama simply does not know what he is talking about (“One gets the impression that Professor Schama has not read beyond chapter 1.”) and offered no retraction when this was pointed out to him. The bell of antisemitism had been rung — standard Zionist m.o.
https://www.ft.com/content/5c0b6958-c898-11e7-ab18-7a9fb7d6163e
Haven’t actually read The Thirty-Nine Steps in ages. Just DLed the 2008 remake (Robert Towne was attached to the script originally but apparently did not see it through) and am curious to see a fourth film version.
If those links aren’t working for you, Google “Simon Schama” Buchan
The first few hits take you to the relevant FT pages.
Steve,
The plot does turn out to be a German one, but when it is first outlined by Scudder he specifically states that it is Jews behind the German plot, with offensive detail. To quote “The Jew is everywhere but you have to go far down the backstairs to find him. Take any big Teutonic business concern…”. There is a lot more of this. It is not repudiated and Scudder being right about the plot is central to the novel. I find it difficult to acquit Buchan here.
I enjoy Enid blyton as a child and read and collected all her books. Plus I enjoyed reading Biggles as well. In the dambuster movie, guy Gibson’s dog ? is known as Nigger. Their style of writing has not impacted my views of life. We have too much diversity, gender etc rammed down our throats. The majority have got to now learn to stand up against the minority.
We have a variation of the film Blade Runner running through our society. The cullling of the pensioners. The fate of nursing homes will be doomed, they will struggle to fill their beds in the future.
Stamboul Train is another example. Graham Greene makes a considerable deal of Myatt’s Jewishness and his Jewish characteristics.
Steven Spielberg makes much of the “Jewishness” of characters in his work too, on occasion.
Party like it’s 1795.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1794_Treason_Trials
This is using the law for harrasment. The chances of winning a case for the prosecution are beside the point.
The saddest aspect of this ,is that most people have no idea what is going on! Our freedoms being eroded constantly & the right to free speech becoming a thing of the past.
I recently have been reading about Franz Kafka. I just finished reading ‘The Trial.’ It paints a pretty depressing picture of the establishment and justice system. Almost as depressing and corrupt as what is currently going on in various parts of the United Kingdom.
In normal circumstances, there would have been elections in Scotland this month. Th order of the boot towards certain parties could have followed.
‘Under the Scotland Act 1998, an ordinary general election to the Scottish Parliament would normally have been held on the first Thursday in May four years after the 2016 election, i.e. in May 2020..’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Scottish_Parliament_election
‘Reap the whirlwind’ is from Hosea 8:7. ‘For they sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.’ It means bad actions have consequences. If quoting the Bible is a criminal act then Scotland’s criminal justice system has gone crazy.
If it counts as hate speech then so will owning copies of the bible, carrying copies of the bible, reading copes of the bible…
Much of what Christians call the Old Testament is deeply racist.
Meanwhile Calvinism, which inspired the Broederbond in South Africa, remains strong in Scotland.
And Catholicism – just ask the Cathars
This is an easy way out for the Catholics — no complains from Cathars!
Nevertheless, mass slaughter or lesser abuses were inspired by various humane and even pacifist ideologies and faiths. Bloody minded people will take any text and make bloody minded conclusions.
It was used by Arthur Harris a few decades ago
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
Statement of 1942, at the start of the bombing campaign against Germany, as quoted in “Sir Arthur Harris & The Lancaster Bomber” at The British Postal Museum and Archive
I am not sure we should be surprised by any of this after what the authorities have done, and got away with, re Julian Assange. He has not committed any crimes either, from a legal point of view that is. The Powers That Be clearly think otherwise.
I did not know about that potential new law going through parliament, but seems to me its main purpose is to make it much easier to arrest and jail political opponents. If it becomes law, it will be applied very selectively, just like the pursuit of Craig and Mark Hirst now.
On a global scale, I don’t see how we can avoid slipping into Fascism. With the economy cratering everywhere, for how long can we expect the unemployed and hungry to stay at home and quietly starve? Odd that the mainstream media are so quiet about this. Or maybe not so odd.
Wrong tense there Minority of One. We HAVE slipped into Fascism.
‘Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.’
Fascism is the state and the state is fascism. The early C20th manifestations of uniformed paramilitaries, social outsiders, suppression of legislatures etc were epiphenomena in places where C19th fascism (the liberal state) was under threat of working class militancy and unusually weak executives caused by the strains of mass industrial warfare. The “west” didn’t experience such acute strains and the legislatures were already subordinate to the executive, hence no marching charging feet in the metropoles only in the colonies. As AJP Taylor once noted, the means of oppression in the slave empires came back to the metropoles but in an uneven way, Ireland yes, Scotland to an extent and England not very much at all. France was a bit more unstable but that only showed that the legislature was of marginal relevance to the rule of the state and the US had pioneered South Africa/Rhodesia/Occupied Palestine in the 1880s. Limiting a definition of fascism to the peculiar versions in Italy, Germany and Spain is a mistake.
For a definition of Fascism I always find it’s better to go straight to the “horse’s mouth”, in this case Il Duce himself – “the merging of the State and the Corporation”.
We’re way beyond that now.
Nothing hateful, “menacing” or “inflamnatory” about the hundreds of Orange walks the Scottish government and Police Scotland sanction every year. No sir. There cannot be because we know they are genuinely outraged about discrimination, intimidation, etc. Genuinely, like.
Indeed. Any Bill to ban hate speech in Scotland, which does not have as Article 1 the banning of Orange parades, is not what it says on the tin.
Craig, I read somewhere that Mr Hirst was cited to attend the Alex Salmond trial as a defence witness ( but in the end wasn’t called).
Is this something you can verify?
Yes, this is true.
What about Google, who distribute to Scotland performances of the vile racist song “The Famine’s Over”, including by the Thornlie Boys? What will their defence be to s5(1)(b)(ii) if the bill is enacted?
You’ve just advertised that song, how guilty will you be?
Last week I ‘phoned a friend of mine who until recently worked in the NHS. Many of her friends work in the NHS and I wanted to hear what was going on. My friend told me of a friend of hers who’s usually a theatre nurse, but she and others have been moved to covid-19 wards to tend patients on ventilators. She’s not happy about it because she has no experience with ventilators and no proper training, just brief instruction staff could be given by other staff under the circumstances. She’s been taking night shifts when she can get them to be off the covid-19 ward and doing work that she has experience in. Many staff are working extra time, 12 hour shifts. They feel exposed as there is insufficient PPE.
Another friend of my friend works with the ambulance teams. They’re doing 12 hour shifts too, because there is much more disinfecting to do. I asked my friend to ask these two to ‘phone me so I could hear their stories first hand, but they haven’t done so. I doubt that’s because they’re spending their time posting complaints to blogs about “Marxists” banging away at their keyboards all day.
It sounds like ambulance workers may be doing a lot of makework, then.
Are more nursing work-hours being worked in hospitals now than before the non-urgent surgery stopped, a lot of wards were shut, and letters saying “Please sign the enclosed ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ forms – think of all the advantages” letters got sent out by GP surgeries?
Ideas among nurses about PPE will certainly have been “nudged”, because that’s how in-house propaganda works. It’s the same in the army. For an analogy in the population at large, see toilet paper.
If we get independence is this what we would want to do with it?
We are given a little bit of devolved power and our benevolent rulers want to;
Abolish corroboration,
Abolish trial by jury,
Do away with cross-examination and
Criminalise difference of opinion.
Is there a legal definition of connive or stir up? Will the security services be exempt?
Whoever drafted this needs to stick to writing christmas cracker jokes.
Alternatively they could contemplate a future where they are no longer in a position close to authority and their laws are used against themselves.
Looking on the bright side, we have been here before with The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 and we all saw how that worked out. They don’t give up though.
@Bill – “Is there a legal definition of connive or stir up?”
Not in the Bill itself or in the “Explanatory Notes” to it there isn’t, nor of the word “hate” either. There may possibly be elsewhere, either in statute or case law – or at least of “connivance”; I kind of doubt it with “hate”.
They are hitting critical opposition while claiming it is “racist” or “hate spready”, which is reminiscent of the tactics used against Labour in the recent British general election.
The fascist internal policy of the SNP government in Scotland is likely to go together with a STRONGER pro-independence policy. Unfortunately much of the Scottish left doesn’t realise that, despite Scotgov talk of turning back
English peopledrivers at the border.You have my full approval to transfer some of your defence funds to assist Mark Hirst-“Carry on…doing” all that you and your ilk do for Freedom of Speech for Scotland and her people.
Same with me; feel free to do what you will with your defence fund. I’ve made a separate donation in any event. I’ve no income at mo so further donations may have to wait.
. “I quite accept that the mores of society change, and there is much in Carry On films society would find unacceptable now, but criminal?”
and that exactly is why free speech except in the case calling publicly for the murder of someone or some group should be protected.
To ban material that suddenly is no longer PC – is the destruction of historical context. Ban Darwin, ban Dickens (he had a problem with Jews too), ban Trollope, ban the whole of pre- and Victorian lit. Ban all the science work that had any reference to “inferior” races – like almost ll of the social and biological Sciences pre 1960…
The Scottish legislature is even worse than the German hate speech laws that ban any discussion about Nazism or to advocate it – yes, this should be allowed as a discussion with the supporters at least brings them out in the open. No one is helped by pushing them underground, and if they engage in unlawful violent action – there are criminal laws applicable.
To ban hate speech just hides the tensions in a society until the stress leads to actions.
Reading what is planned under Scottish law – why would the EU have such a country join as a independent state? Unless the EU as a whole walks down the same path.
And what will be the fate of ‘Lady Chatterley’s Lover’?
And, indeed, Frankie Boyle? What will his act sound like?
But Frankie Boyle would retort that people often ask “Is the comedian joking?” “Really?” “Are you sure?” “They’re joking?”. A comedian on the comedy stage at a comedy festival. Of course they are f**king joking!
Burn baby, burn…
And this Orwellian, Bill progresses under the supervision of Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Humza Yousaf. Wait, didn’t he just try to suspend trial by jury ’cause of the bug? A very Trumpian, bait-and-switch move. Guess Humza’s apprenticeship at the US State Department’s, International Visitors Leadership Program wasn’t waisted after all.
Glad I spoiled my ballot at the last GE.
Incidentally, the link doesn’t make clear (paywall) which Security Service stenographer at the Times the Crown Office is using to front its propaganda.
If the new, list party for the next Holyrood election is to have any secondary policies let’s have a strongly libertarian stance.
It’s high time the general public were educated about their right of ‘jury nullification’. The jury sitting in any case can nullify any law that it believes is either immoral, just plain stupid or wrongly applied to the defendant. With ever more catch all laws entering the statute books it’s vital that jurors know that it is still an option. Do potential jurors get informed about this? of course not.
New to me too. I’ve just looked it up, and it appears to be called Jury Equity in the UK.
Unfortunately for your cunning plan, knowing Jury Nullification exists bars you from jury service.
Happy to have any of my contributions transferred as necessary. I remember from some time ago, Wings being reported for a supposedly threatening tweet he had sent to Chris Cairns. Especially ironic in that he and Chris Cairns are friends and collaborate in their respective work places!
Hi Craig.
Strewth! It is getting murkier and murkier.
Another observation, Nicola suspends independence activation yet political legislation is being shoved through.
Where is Humza on this, is he acting like Priti Patel.
Has the SNP forgotten we the people are sovereign.
I get the feeling they are bringing in legislation retrospectively to cover themselves.
How to call out Humza.
Lol??
Craig,
I’ve donated to the Mark Hirst fund, and I’m happy for you to use my donation to your defence-fund in any way you choose.
On my first glance at the Hate Crime and Public Order Bill, I note that it makes specific reference to sex and to religion, but not to freedom of expression in politics, i.e.
11. Protection of freedom of expression: religion
12. Protection of freedom of expression: sexual orientation .
I’ll be writing to MSP about that deliberate omission.
Told you that a liberal is a fascist in a cardigan. Laws like this criminalise anyone the executive want criminalised. No intent = another witchcraft law like those on “harassment” which were used against Salmond. The jury accidentally acquitted him, ergo the jury should be abolished, not so much by its absence but by it being hamstrung by more limits on what it can hear. No need for marching charging feet boy, just respectable law making by the legislature.
PS you can redistribute my bung as you see fit.
A prime example of the exercise of penalty without any intent is the various terrorism bills. You can purchase and download the ‘Anarchist Cookbook’ (in truth a work of comedy) from Amazon UK, however there have been around a dozen people jailed in the UK for possessing it without any form of intent.
I contributed a small amount. Am happy for you to use it also for Mark’s defence and I will also contribute to his when I have funds. I am not Scottish and am neutral on the independence question – that’s up to the Scots. I’d never heard of Mark Hirst until today but the UK’s slide towards fascism is very worrying. It is obvious that he’s not threatening anything violent but a political reckoning.
Possibly another show trial for predictive programming to change peoples behaviours using applied psychology courtesy of the Truth Ministry? Apart from the social media censorship of views, opinions and facts there is also a message being given that free speech is no longer part of the NWO global agenda and those with a public platform will need to comply as resistance will be futile.
Before long the comments sections on honorable sites like Craigs will be only populated with nonsense from the misguided 77th Girls Brigade and from other paid puppets of the tiny controlling global elite.
I’ve put a small coin in the tin, as I think this ios worthwhile. Mind you, I once attended a show on the film Twister at Universal Studios, Hollywood where I saw a model cow thrown into the air. Model cow, geddit? Ah well, I guess the KGB will be after me next. 🙂
They are just trying to delay the inevitable at this stage. Smacks of desperate times call for desperate measures. Cornered rats fight to the death and may even eat each other.
Under s.127(4), s.127(1) and (2) do not apply to ‘anything done in the course of providing a programme service (within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (c.42)).’ s.201(1)(c) Broadcasting Act 1990 states that a programme service includes ‘any other service which consists in the sending, by means of a telecommunication system, of sounds or visual images or both either – (i) for reception at two or more places in the United Kingdom (whether they are so sent for simultaneous reception or at different times in response to requests made by different users of the service)…’ Twitter, Facebook and Youtube are services which consists of sending visual images or visual images of text (Are they visual? Are they images?) to two or more places in the United Kingdom in response to user requests (that is, you request a Twitter or Facebook page when you click on the link to it). Ergo, s.127(1) and (2) do not apply to Twitter, Facebook, Youtube or similar services.
Disgraceful, so who’s orchestrating Police Scotland, who’s pulling the strings to clamp down on free speech, especially those with Scottish independence in mind. The Salmond team, shows us just how dedicated they are to find some incriminating dirt on Salmond, though the team probably has a far wider remit.
The heirarchy of the SNP including the ultra woke, really needs to be removed from the party if we’re to progress to independence,this whole farrago stinks to high heaven.
Dear oh dear.
Back into the 17th century we tumble.
Madness,a very dangerous madness.
All it needs is a civil war and an independent Scotland and the resemblance will be complete.
Here’s how it could pan out…..
What if Brexit leads to a Civil war? Scotland and N. Ireland fight for independence – Binkov’s Battlegrounds (YouTube)
The further unfolding of peak Sturgeonism. Flicker of a smile as Scots are hauled in for calling somebody a silly boy. Heart pounding as western jets launch another democracy crusade in the middle east. Eyes dancing as the Salmond Team depart on a fresh mission (…fly my pretties..)
Just for clarification, am I right in thinking that this bill in not yet passed into law? Is this following link calling for views open to anyone or just members of scottish parliament?:
https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/CurrentCommittees/115038.aspx
If it is open to members of the public maybe it’s an opportunity to express your views on the bill.
So far as I can see comments and views from the public are welcome until 24 July
Do you have to be resident in Scotland, i.e. be eligible to vote for the Scottish parliament, to have the right to contribute to this? Actually I’m sure plenty of Scottish residents will, especially readers of this blog, so no need for me to get involved. 🙂
All comments I have read in relation to the consultation regards the proposed GRA clearly claim that the “consultation” is a sham. The cult is only interested in a bizarre, virtue signaling echo chamber. I’ve contributed to Mr Hirst’s defence fund, I won’t be participating in the “consultation”. There are no good faith actions around Sturgeon & Murrell. Time to confront them with actions rather than words.
But if you live in Scotland, shouldn’t you try to enlighten them? Buddha had the same dilemma: his intended audience likely wouldn’t listen, and incur demerit as well. But wider counsel prevailed, that some at least would listen, and the rest is history!