Discrimination against people on the grounds of their health status is not acceptable, while the ever increasing reach of the surveillance state is pernicious. The idea of people without Covid-19 antibodies being treated as second class citizens should be anathema to anybody with concern for human liberty.
It is improbable that Covid-19 will be eliminated from the world in the forseeable future. Like Spanish flu or Hong Kong flu, it will lurk around in the mix of seasonal infections for many years to come, hopefully, but not necessarily, like them becoming less severe through serial mutations. It appears likely that, as with flu, there may be a regular vaccination cycle.
Just now, England and Wales are in negative excess deaths. Less people are dying than normally do at this time of year, on a rolling average of the last five years. I presume Scotland will be similar, though I cannot immediately find current figures.
The number of people dying within 28 days of a covid diagnosis is down to approximately 300 a week in the entire UK, and has been steadily falling. How much of this fall is due to vaccination and how much due to lockdown is an open question. But it remains a stubborn and undeniable fact, much as some people do not like it said, that Covid-19 has never been a major threat to young and healthy people. Older people and those in vulnerable groups have in very large majority been at least partially vaccinated now. The odds of those in the unnvaccinated groups dying of covid are really very low indeed.
A medical member of the UK government’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Innoculation stated on BBC News on Friday that the risk of mortality to a healthy person under 30 who caught coronavirus was 117,000. He was explaining that this is such a remote risk, that it was almost as remote as the chances of a serious side effect from the Astra Zeneca vaccine, and that was why the use of that vaccine in that age group was being suspended; not that the vaccine was dangerous to this age group, but that they didn’t need it enough to justify even a minuscule risk.
The point of vaccinating the healthy middle aged and under is not that Covid-19 is a serious risk of death to them; it is not. It is simply to break transmission. Now I have had my first shot of vaccine myself, and urge everyone to take their vaccine. I have expressed before my view that I believe that refusing to be vaccinated is an immoral position; it is to benefit from herd immunity while refusing to accept the very small personal risk from the vaccine itself. But I utterly reject the notion of compulsory vaccination or of penalising those who do not wish to vaccinated by limiting their lives. Health is a personal matter, and discrimination on the basis of health status cannot be correct, nor the revelation of details of health status to people other than medical professionals employed in care.
I have no problem with vaccine certificates for international travel, having carried them my entire adult life. But the idea of having to show intrusive personal identity and health status documents to prove who you are, and prove your antibody levels, before entering a pub or a theatre ought to be anathema to every right thinking person. It is like very poor dystopian science fiction.
If find the daily graphs of whole UK figures from from the Guardian is very helpful (the daily death figure is even lower than the average of about 40 this week because of weekend registration) .
Overall, it does not lie, although the left hand graph is massively distorted in its first months by the lack of testing availability. For most of the period, the relationship between all three graphs remains broadly constant. The glaring anomaly of daily cases in the first few months (the left hand graph) relates entirely to the fact testing was unavailable. It also accounts in very large part for the huge public hysteria over Covid-19. When it was only possible to get a test if you were approaching death’s door, a very high percentage of those with positive tests died. That this led large numbers of otherwise intelligent people to accept ludicrously exaggerated infection fatality rates for the disease, is something I struggled with a great deal.
We are probably many years away from there being a scientific consensus around the infection mortality rate of Covid-19, and indeed consensus may never emerge – there is still much debate over infection mortality rates from various types of flu. This letter published in the BMJ cites the Pastor-Barriuso study finding a median of 0.8% and Ioannidis finding 0.27%. What does appear true is that Covid-19 is particularly transmissible, so while it may not have an infection mortality rate very much greater than influenza, it does have the ability to kill a lot of people in a short space of time and overwhelm health services. There are also the effects of long covid, which appear still to be little understood.
I am genuinely unsure why it causes so much anger to state that those people who are non-geriatric and healthy are only at very slight risk of death from covid-19, when it is an undeniable fact. I feel confident that we have seen the end of mass deaths in the UK, because the at risk sectors of the population have been vaccinated, reducing their chances of getting seriously ill by 80%. So there may be something of a surge in cases following lockdowns, but it will not result in a matching increase in hospitalisations or deaths.
Covid-19 has been a genuine crisis which has killed a large number of people and played havoc with the lives of many others. But it too will pass and the worst of it has passed. It must not be allowed to become an excuse for permanent even higher levels of governmental intrusion and control. We are approaching normality again. Both power-drunk politicians and Stockholm syndrome populaces need to embrace the idea of normal. It is a great deal more pleasant.
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“Less people are dying than normally do at this time of year”.
Presumably because the ones who would have been likely to die have already previously been eliminated as a consequence of current Government COVID19 policies.
The small minority who died of Covid-19 had already an unhealthy immune system: either underreaction or overreaction = Cytokine storm. To long term lock-down the 95% others is just dumb or megalomaniacal. If the 95% get it they will be fine health wise in a few days. It is these governmental mass lock-downs that create psychological problems for too many.
As Covid-19 is forced to make many mutations to survive and has the chance to do so over the globe most of the present vaccines will become medically useless and so will the documents that are based up on them. The Pharma MNCs want these “passports” to see where there mass medical experiments have failed / succeeded.
Overreaching BS that is going to bite the initiators back in the near future.
Any evidence of the 95% that you are quoting will be fine? There seem to be a very large number of people with long covid from exceedingly debilitating to less severely so- but all are not the person they were prior to catching covid.
Long Covid has a documented proclivity to affect the middle classes. The Guardian et al obsess endlessly over it.
The new ME.
In short, you have no arguments, you’re just repeating denialist lies because potentially inflicting very serious, long lasting, debilitating and crippling health damage on others means nothing to you, certainly less than being “”forced”” to wear a small piece of cloth that somehow insults you with its very existence.
I was wondering how little it takes for supposedly good people in Israel to become blind and deaf to Palestinian suffering, now I wonder where so many sociopaths were hiding in most western countries and I am forced to admit Israel was actually low on “screw others” scale, they at least don’t try to murder each other with reckless abandon…
UWS
“I was wondering how little it takes for supposedly good people in Israel to become blind and deaf to Palestinian suffering, now I wonder where so many sociopaths were hiding in most western countries and I am forced to admit Israel was actually low on “screw others” scale, they at least don’t try to murder each other with reckless abandon…”
You do realise that this makes you sound completely deranged. You do….don’t you?
Mr Murray
Showing ‘antibody levels’ is simply the most ridiculous, unworking concept possible.
The antibody response of human beings is well designed, as is the innate immunity system directed by T lymphocytes.
Basically, the first time you are exposed to a new threat, it takes a bit of time to mobilise the armed forces, as it were. That’s really why you may get a bit ill the first time around, because the virus (in this case) has a goodly amount of time to replicate a lot before your body recognises the expeditionary forces that landed at a metaphorical beach-head somewhere or other.
But once it does, it rounds up the invaders and is rather peremptory in lining them up against a wall, ordering the firing squad to take aim and getting rid of them with the least fuss possible.
The real value in the system, however, is that it is very good at marking such invaders down with recognisable signals, so that if a bunch of their relatives pitch up again at any time, a simple call to the base at Catterick is issued and an efficient set of killers is sent out to kill the new lot before even a platoon of them have landed on the beach. It’s what’s called innate immunity and it’s why you don’t tend to get ill so much the next time around.
The final piece of efficiency is that, you don’t maintain your immune system at DefCon5 interminably. Once the initial storm troopers have been executed, the firing squad is stood down and the world returns to DefCon1. That means in antibody terms that you won’t have them hanging around for years, they will disappear back down to zero.
Being immune has nothing to do with how many antibodies are circulating in your blood or lymphatics, because if it did, the sheer number of foreign entities you have already raised antibodies to would be turning blood a rather turgid state of colloid, rather than being a pleasingly pumpable liquid of limited viscosity.
Being immune merely means retaining the ability to go extremely rapidly from DefCon1 to DefCon5 to order.
The way this is done is by putting what are called ‘memory cells’ into the immune system’s bank. In the case of viruses, the T-cell response system is also ‘written to hard drive’ as it were, and you can simply call it up again as necessary by ‘opening up the file from the hard drive’.
So if some scientifically illiterate bozo like Matthew Hancock tells you that you aren’t immune because your antibody levels aren’t skyrocketing, tell him he is infertile because he doesn’t have an enormous erection 24 hours a day.
I am sure we all hope that Mr Hancock maintains the propensity for fertilising females, even if it does not manifest itself in public whilst serving the nation as he does with such diligence, attention to factual accuracy and with sufficient ability to sift the scientific wheat from the ‘I’d like to float my biotech and make £50m’ chaff whilst he is doing so….
From an OFFICIAL UK Government publication:-SPI-M-O: Summary of further modelling of easing restrictions – Roadmap Step 2 Date: 31 st March 2021
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spi-m-o-summary-of-further-modelling-of-easing-restrictions-roadmap-step-2-31-march-2021
32. “The resurgence in both hospitalisations and deaths is dominated by those that have received two doses of the vaccine, comprising around 60% and 70% of the wave respectively. This can be attributed to the high levels of uptake in the most at-risk age groups, such that immunisation failures account for more serious illness than unvaccinated individuals:-
No I haven’t had the Covid vax yet and may never have it. The more I hear about the ‘spike protein’ the less inclined I am to join in with this mass vaccination experiment. I have no intention of going abroad or drinking in pubs. As an ex-ambassador and human-rights activist I would expect Craig to know the Nuremberg Code by heart. Most of my family and circle of friends and aquaintances have now received their first AZ jab. Three had very bad reactions, two are suffering from chronic fatigue; one had a stroke and is left side paralysed. No thanks-I’d rather be ‘immoral’.
Wow, your circle of friends are extraordinary and / or phenomenally large. Nearly all of my friends and relatives have had the jab, a few of us felt a bit under the weather for 24-48 hours, all are absolutely fine now.
Or perhaps they are depressed from lockdown rather than chronic fatigue- have not bothered to get out in the fresh air on a daily basis, and the person who had the stroke would have had it anyway and it has no relationship except bad timing to the vaccination.
Will you promise not to require NHS care when you catch Covid?
AliB “Will you promise not to require NHS care when you catch Covid?”
No need to promise Ali- persons of my age don’t get NHS care for Covid. My main worry is having to go into hospital for other health problems; a large cohort of elderly Covid deaths caught the virus in hospital. Keep well everyone.
Sorry AliB but I won’t let you get away with a lazy parting shot like “Will you promise not to require NHS care when you catch Covid?” I have heard the same phrase used elsewhere and it basically amounts to indirect peer pressure and guilt shaming – “if you get ill, then don’t come to us etc” i.e. you are excluded from normal society and are some sort of undeserving underclass. Perhaps a better approach would be to have a public debate and open discussion involving views from all sides so that we do not end up with a divided society but a tolerant, more understanding one.
“Being Selfish” by Sye Ten – animation (BitChute, 2m 20s)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/p7Sa0CTdYcmH/
Recommended.
Do people deterred from hospital get their National insurance back?
Will you promise not to require NHS care when you catch Covid?
Really? We are back to this “everybody must do what I want” society? Will you be applying these risk free criteria to yourself and others: no cooked food (accidents happen in kitchens), no knives in kitchens, no travelling, no socialising (people carry germs), no climbing, no running, no swimming, no sailing, no fat people, no no-exercise people, no drinkers, no smokers etc etc.
Is it worth living in this society if we all have to minimise our risks to meet your criteria to get NHS care? Is it worth having the NHS if it is going to limit our lives like this?
More to the point, why does everybody have to stop doing what they want to do and start doing what you want them to do? Can you not enjoy the fact that there is a variety of people and they are happiest doing different things?
a) Did you read the whole study and found paragraph 32 only relevant without including paragraph 55&56 or
b) Copy-pasted some one else post.
c) What “Nuremberg Code” has to do with vaccination?
Just the first part of the Nuremberg Code. You can access the link yourselves for the rest, as you can for my other link. Make no mistake. No one- absolutely no one -knows the long term effects of these mRNA Covid vaccines, but they have known for many months the AZ and some other covid vaccine versions can disrupt the blood platelets in some cases, leading to strokes and leakage from blood capillaries.They are not the slightest bit concerned about strokes, heart and blood disorders in persons my age. We are told, as my friend’s elderly mother was told when she had a stroke two days after the AZ vaccine it was coincidence and nothing to do with the vaccine. Yeah right. But when unusual numbers of younger persons displayed these serious conditions, and remember a large % of them died, then governments were forced to take action. The over 50s are now being administered the Moderna vaccine. We shall see. I hope this vaccine proves safer than the other two in the UK, but all these vaccines are experimental, and any attempts to coerce people to take them by intoducing mandatory powers or, like Craig, using shaming techniques, are nothing more than medical fascism.
“Nuremberg Code – history – Office of NIH History and Stetten Museum
1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.
This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved, as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that, before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject, there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person, which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.”
Shatnersrug,
Seconded!
Wow! That link and quote are simply staggering. Thankyou. Along with the evidence of the effectiveness of vitamin D and Ivermectin, and the repression of this evidence, this pretty much proves that the government is engaged in mass manslaughter. But I fear no-one will ever be held to account; the perpetrators will be held up as heroes, like the perpetrators of Dresden and Hiroshima.
That’s a very informative link, Jennifer. Thank you.
I see you omitted the last sentence of paragraph 32. In the interest of full disclosure:
“This is discussed further in paragraphs 55 and 56.”
So what do those paragraphs say?
“Who becomes seriously ill in a resurgence?
55. Figure 11 illustrates the age and vaccination status of those hospitalised (left) and dying (right) over time in Warwick’s central scenario for the whole Roadmap (equivalent to Figure 4). The top plots are absolute numbers and the bottom plots are as a proportion of those admitted or dying.
“56. This shows that most deaths and admissions in a post-Roadmap resurgence are in people who have received two vaccine doses, even without vaccine protection waning or a variant emerging that escapes vaccines. This is because vaccine uptake has been so high in the oldest age groups (modelled here at 95% in the over 50-year olds). There are therefore 5% of over 50-year olds who have not been vaccinated, and 95% x 10% = 9.5% of over 50-year olds who are vaccinated but, nevertheless, not protected against death. This is not the result of vaccines being ineffective, merely uptake being so high.” [original emphasis]
Note the last sentence of paragraph 56, which is printed in bold:
“This is not the result of vaccines being ineffective, merely uptake being so high.“
So the true explanation for the phenomenon is handily included in the same document. It’s nothing unexpected.
There are people on the internet who don’t quite understand statistics, and they are of course welcome to selectively quote certain passages while omitting other parts of the same text that might contradict the sinister insinuations they’d like to circulate. Likewise, more astute readers are free to regard those people as either ignorant or malicious. Take your pick.
Dawg “There are people on the internet who don’t quite understand statistics,” You are quite right Dawg. We must leave this to the ‘experts’ -these days this means presentation of unwanted statistical data by government spin doctors. The explanation in paragraph 56 for the rather unfortunate fact that (quote) “most deaths and admissions in a post-Roadmap resurgence are in people who have received two vaccine doses” is simply that old folks die anyway!! So don’t worry folks.
“The explanation in paragraph 56 for the rather unfortunate fact that (quote) “most deaths and admissions in a post-Roadmap resurgence are in people who have received two vaccine doses” is simply that old folks die anyway!!”
Well, yes … but again you omit a crucial qualifier: these “old folks die anyway” – because they still being exposed to the virus, and while the vast majority of vulnerable old people have (of course) already been double vaccinated, the efficiency of vaccines falls significantly short of 100%.
You do the math.
Well written.
It is worth to note that the Nurnberg Code was brought about the winners and post fact though.
Who would you suggest the winners be at this time?
Likewise, I have no intention. Most relatives who had the ‘vaccination’ are okay except for one, who, a couple of days after receiving it, developed blood clots causing a heart attack, resulting in life saving surgery. He’s lucky to be alive but at least in Mr Murray’s view, he is “morally” justified in clinging to his life.
One thing I can say definitively is that not one of them made up their own mind about having an experimental ‘gene therapy’ or vaccine injected into their own bodies. They may have formed a conclusion, but they did not do so on the balance of evidence. All of them were pressured to do so in many ways and I cannot deny that the year long propaganda exercise to instil fear of death in them helped make their minds up. It was definitely a contributory factor. Just as MSM media propaganda was a factor during the Scottish Independence referendum and just as the concerted cross-media ‘anti-Semitism’ accusations were a factor in the 2019 election and just as foreign heads of states are portrayed as the ‘new Hitler’ or environmental rapists during every build up to every war and coup. Whatever will appeal to the middle class gatekeepers will do.
I think about the three thousand excess deaths per week during April and May of 2020, those which were not attributed to Covid19 but died unexpectedly during the first two months of lock-down. I wonder if one day perhaps Mr Murray will express some curiosity about their fate, asking two important questions: how and why did they die?
And even if we ignore the £37 billion (thirty seven thousand million – 37,000,000,000) which the English government gave to Dido Harding and pals for an IT job which was worth a couple of million, there’s still the various legal changes already made in several recent bills to consider:
https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/22/coronavirus-bill-slashes-safeguards-in-death-registration/
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-01/0188/200188.pdf
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9158/
Not only that, currently proposed is everything from Covid passports to mandatory vaccination and sectioning under the mental health act: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/9253/pdf/
Which leads us to where Mr Murray really drops the ball. Along with Russell Brand and so many other concerned commentators, who to be fair to them and their excellent work, having made serious, intelligent, credible and worthwhile contributions to this debate, nevertheless find themselves led.
If the proposed health passports are merely about access to entertainment and if we fight on that issue alone then we’ve already lost. We could easily all boycott all those things and continue merrily on our way, even if we were not told that we are selfish, feckless and immoral to refuse vaccination. I mean, look how trivial we are, prioritising a night in the pub over vaccination!
But what happens when we must subject ourselves to experimental gene altering RNA, essentially tailored viruses constructed by some of the biggest and most powerful corporations on Earth (untested and designed to do who knows what) in order to be able to attend work? In order for our children to attend school? To apply for a mortgage? To rent a home? Or to get life insurance and for that matter ‘health insurance’ after privatisation of the NHS? At that point we must either submit or perish.
Mr Murray is, I accept unwittingly, driving another nail in our coffin here, by accepting the premise that this is merely about pubs or theatres, places which most of us probably can’t afford to frequent anyway.
It is about the most basic principle we live by or it is about nothing at all.
Thanks J, Jon and Chet for your posts. My own reporting about my own family and friends reactions to the AZ Covid vaccine were rubbished by the ubiquitous pro pharma/ establishment brigade, but the vaccine manufacturers have never made any secret about the Covid vaccine side effects, including fever, fatigue and headaches. These can be severe in some cases. Also, in common with all other medications, these vaccines can cause allergic reactions, including rashes and anaphylaxis.
My latest response to ‘Chet’ has been ‘removed for moderation’, presumably in response to a complaint. Chet’s comment about doing the ‘math’ suggests he probably hails from across the Atlantic, where a well organised grassroots organisation has raised money to force states to stick clearly to the terms tof the Nuremberg Code for medical experiments when promoting and administering vaccines.
“FDA authorization letters for both COVID-19 vaccines expressly provide that the vaccines are each “an investigational vaccine not licensed for any indication” and require that “[a]ll promotional material relating to the COVID-19 Vaccine clearly and conspicuously … state that this product has not been approved or licensed by the FDA.”
The UK Government’s response to the numbers of fully vaccinated elderly persons who die or are hospitalised, ostensibly from Covid, is to say they would have died anyway and the vaccine was never claimed to be 100% effective. There are several issues here, discussion of which has unfortunately been stifled by our political establishment. First of all, the AZ vaccine was initially hyped up as being far more effective than it actually was, leading people to assume a false sense of security. Boris, on TV this morning , admitted the lockdown was more effective than the vax at preventing Covid transmission and we all need to remain vigilant. That’s good advice, if a bit belated, and whilst I think Boris was absolutely right to vaccinate the elderly and infirm first, the wisdom of vaccinating those persons over 80 ( the cohort most likely to to become seriously ill or die from Covid), who were already seriously ill with other potentially fatal co-morbidities, should at least be questioned, particularly if these persons were already in safe isolation in their own homes. Experience has taught us these persons were far more likely to contract Covid in hospitals and care homes.
I realise this is all ‘academic’, since vitually everyone over 70 has now been vaccinated, but we MUST learn lessons, given Covid has been a steep learning curve for all of us.
Sorry I should have said Dawg not Chet.
Your comment about reactions is really interesting to me. 48 hours after my first AZ jab I started to get itchy spots on my hands, arms, legs and feet. If I so much as touched them, they would get bigger. If I rubbed skin creams on the area, they would expand into a white blister the size of the area that I had touched.
A few hours after this skin problem, I started to get pains in my gums – like severe toothache, but rarely in the same places two days running. The pain was so extreme that I would have seriously considered jumping from a 10th floor window just to make sure the pain went away. Fortunately, I found a tube of Bonjela in a local pharmacy and this provided some temporary relief, but the pains would often vanish as quickly as they came after 30-40 minutes or so.
However, nothing can be so instantly depressing as having sat quietly in a chair feeling elated and pain free – only to suddenly feel the sharp pains beginning to return again and not knowing the length of this spell of acute agony.
After a day or two of this torture I became aware that the symptoms described were also accompanied by a feeling of my head being in a vice. I know it will result in wisecracks, but I can only describe it as feeling as if my brain had swelled up inside my skull and was too big for it.
These symptoms came and went at all hours of the day and night, but seemingly at random. I rotated my intake of Aspirin, Paracetamol, Ibuprofen as sensibly as I dared and tried to be a normal human being.
This went on for about 4 to 5 weeks; some days good, some days/nights were hell. My wife suggested I visit my GP but this was lockdown and I did not want to risk further infection from waiting rooms, and had no guarantee that any of the symptoms would be present by the time of my appointment.
Then about 3 weeks ago, the pains stopped. The itchy skin spots still occur occasionally, but are nowhere near as frequent or as widespread; but the gums and head problems have gone completely.
Now, I have no evidence whatsoever that any of this was caused by the Covid vaccine. It all might be coincidence, but I have been through the yellow card process just in case. I have never encountered anything like those combined symptoms before.
I am booked for my second AZ jab in about three weeks time, and am dreading having to go through all that again; but if I do, it will prove the vaccine link – to me at least.
Not with the skin blotches you describe, but my wife had a similar reaction to the Pfizer vaccine in regard to teeth, gums, head, which she regarded as a recurrence of her trigeminal neuralgia (a problem she hasn’t had for some 30 years previously). If it’s any consolation toward your having a second jab, her reaction to her second was far more minor (and in the other arm, if that makes any difference).
What utter tosh!
No Goodwin.
It is the honest truth, but I would love to read your evidence for your confident put down.
A couple of links will suffice.
Thank you Rhys Jagger for this excellent summary of the complex workings of the immune response to the likes of Covid – 19 and in doing so highlighting just how simplistic and inaccurate much of the msm coverage is, which jumps from one aspect to another without any semblance of scientific joined up thinking.
“So if some scientifically illiterate bozo like Matthew Hancock tells you that you aren’t immune because your antibody levels aren’t skyrocketing, tell him he is infertile because he doesn’t have an enormous erection 24 hours a day”.
For all we know he does, owing to the stimulation afforded by his gigantic godlike power over everyone else. Some people get off on sex, others on drugs, and a select few on pure power.
“The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?”
— George Orwell (O’Brien to Winston Smith, “1984”)
You need prove of vaccination for many diseases to get a visa for example African countries if not you do not get a visa, a pandemic appears to hard for people to understand
You need proof of a vaccination for specific diseases to enable you to get a visa for many countries, such as, Africa, otherwise you will not get a visa. The term ‘Pandemic’ appears to be too hard for many people to understand.
There you go, don’t mention it.
Most people have zero interest in visiting African countries. Those that do often come back with illnesses despite vax. The oovic jab is not a vax, it is an experimental RNA injection. I just lost what respect remained for you Craig. Who are you to say not getting this poison is an “immoral position?” Please dude. You are doing good work on Assange and Salmand cases but you are dead wrong on most of the domestic policy points…aka GRE and Hate Crimes bill. Quite while you are ahead and stfu.
The Pfizer vaccine is based on RNA- Astra Zeneca is based on the standard and long used formations of vaccines.
But the A/Z vaccine still instructs cells to manufacture RNA, so really its just the method of delivery that differs, it still remains fairly novel.
Of course I assume your reference to standard and long used would be referring to the traditional attenuated virus route.
Couldn’t agree more. To just blindly take the vaccine which has not gone through the years of rigorous safety trials that normal vaccines go through is playing Russian roulette with your life. Yes, you may not have any complications and go on to lead a long life free of Covid but also it is possible, due to the absence of knowledge about the long-term effects, that you may, for the Pfizer mRNA vaccines, develop adverse medical conditions over time. The relentless messaging about the vaccination program is completely over the top – every paper, every TV channel, every radio station. My own choice not to get vaccinated is because I don’t wish to be part of an experiment. It is so unhelpful for people to make these sweeping judgements about those who choose not to get vaccinated – “immoral?”. My not getting the vaccine is not putting others at risk: I’ve had the virus. Also the idea that there are these asymptomatic super-spreaders out there is complete nonsense and is bandied about by all those trying to coerce the rest of us and make us feel guilty as if we’re a bunch of murdering pyschopaths.
Ever heard of Thyphoid Marry?
Yes, I have, Pigeon, and that was for a bacterial infection not viral.
a) why is it poison ?
b) what will this poison do to you?
c) salt is poison ( 3-4 table spoons would kill you) but we all like it.
It might make her intelligent !
The idea of “a pandemic” is indeed extremely hard for many people to understand. I am one of them.
The traditional definition of a pandemic was a serious, life-threatening disease appearing everywhere in the world. Quite recently the WHO arbitrarily, and for no apparent reason, changed ITS definition of “pandemic” to omit the part about “serious, life-threatening”. Now, according to WHO, a pandemic is just a disease that appears around the world. Like the common cold, or perhaps athlete’s foot.
Ironically, African countries are among those least affected by Covid-19.
Last time I looked, the guardian below the line is increasingly full of people calling for vaccine passports and ID cards etc.. Nothing to hide – nothing to fear etc..
As far as I can tell, the main motivation in these BTL comments for vaccine passports is a sheer unrestrained hatred towards the small proportion of people not taking a vaccine. That and old people wanting to go to the pub while keeping young people out, without any awareness of the unpleasantness of this.
Possibly people locked at home have got increasingly polarized and angry over social media.
BTL comments don’t represent anything except a tiny proportion of people who love their soapboxes and announcing their views to the world – usually constructed around entrenched opinions, half truths and a conviction that their beliefs are the true ones. Social media has amplified it to a point where straw men and women are the butt of anger and outrage on a regular basis. It isn’t healthy, as well as giving a very distorted view of the world and what people think, if they think at all. It is the elevation of the fringe to the centre, which gives power to numpties like Trump and Johnson.
That may be the case, but the BTL comments do play a role in correcting inaccuracies in the articles, which are often themselves echo-chamber soapbox pieces.
For example, a few days ago there were big pieces about racism in academia. At a first glance the statistics were shocking. But then the top recommended BTL comment explained that actually the stats were all a bit wrong and the situation is not as bad as all that. It’s a shame that the “guardian pick” agreed with the article, but at least there was a chance to set the record straight.
“Last time I looked, the guardian below the line is increasingly full of people calling for vaccine passports and ID cards etc”
Really? Last time I looked, the vast majority of BTL commenters at the Graun were opposing vaccine passports.
Thanks AndyC, that’s interesting. So it may be that it depends on which social media circles the article is shared.
The exception proves the rule.
“sheer unrestrained hatred towards the small proportion of people not taking a vaccine” – and it is well founded. We killed smallpox, we could have eradicated 10+ more diseases by now, but thanks to anti-vac idiots they are making a comeback. These scum KILL others, and despising them is no different than despising mass shooters, drunk drivers, or banksters who make people homeless in the middle of winter with predatory, massive compound loans. What is mind boggling is that there are people insane enough to defend this behaviour.
Craig there is a great website called travelling tabby developed by a young Scottish guy called John. He is where I go to for up to date data on Coronovirus, not only for Scotland but for the rest of the UK https://www.travellingtabby.com/
It is very good and also covers Scottish excess deaths. Ever since the start of March we have had a deficit of deaths each week, rising to -149 for the last week of ending 29 March. The deficit in March comes close to balancing out the excess in February.
As a life Sciences student and careerist currently working in vaccine related pharma, I completely agree.
The situation is being taken advantage of though to further separate us from our “rights” if we have such things in the UK.
Note: the track and trace software has cost £10 billion to date.
To put that in perspective, if 1000 people wrote, tested and launched that App they would all have benefited by on average by £10 million each.
Smell a rat? and it doesn’t even work yet. Nor is the pcr test that it uses as input data reliable with a significant false positive rate. They admit to 10% in a clinical environment, let alone swabbing peope through car windows in a safari park car park.
Even if you are truly positive, a huge % of us have little to no symptoms for various reasons. And as Craig points out, even if you are an actual symptomatic case, the chances of mortality are now staggeringly low.
With deaths now reported at c. 20 per day, remember that is people who die within a week or so of testing positive, whether via traffic accident, heart attack, suicide, cancer or anything else; I would submit, effectively zero people are now dying directly from Covid.
The question is why do they continue to bang on with this with the economy in the toilet? There are theories. Some of which come back to the financial sector who early last year, before anybody knew what was happening were IMMEDIATELY given money to “help stimulate the economy” but predictably there was no observable stimulus to lending.
The financial sector are generally so massively strung out and effectively insolvent with all the bets they made with each other that an economy in the toileta means keeping interests rates low, which keeps margin calls at bay.
The Financial sector of the Deep State only care for their own skins and so the theory goes, that it the main street actual economy matters little to them so long as they are not thrown under the bus.
Then there is the question, are these interests taking advantage of this “act of God” or is it, as some have noted a Plandemic?
For heavens sake- a bit of accuracy please. Covid reported deaths are people who die within 28 days of having a diagnosis and positive tests for Covid.
Should he ask for refund or change to different course?
Or he is making up!
The lavish sums spent on a track and trace system that was a failure in any meaningful sense of the word, rather guarantee that argument about vaccine passports is ultimately a fools errand.
Even if governments introduced such a requirement, the systems to check validity would be impossible to be relied upon in the short term leading to widespread evasion by forgery and such. We might also assume that should any passport system actually achieve functionality, it would be years after the virus had ceased to pose any threat.
“But it remains a stubborn and undeniable fact, much as some people do not like it said, that Covid-19 has never been a major threat to young and healthy people”
As a teacher, I can assure you that I have seen and colleagues in other schools have seen, in innumerable instances, that young people, while often not becoming as obviously sick as adults, are extremely effective at carrying and transmitting the virus to adults – both to teachers in school and to adults at home. Whenever schools reopened following previous lockdowns, we unfailingly saw spikes in staff and parent infections very shortly afterwards. That is the real issue with young people and Covid.
That does not make it a threat to the young people. Obviously young people can transmit it to more vulnerable people – as the article specifically says. But those more vulnerable people are now vaccinated.
There are several efficient methods of suppressing respiratory diseases:-
The first two work but are toxic to the economy and discriminate against those involved in some parts of the economy more than others. For some reason politicians are unwilling to enforce the fourth method for long enough. Its effectiveness may not be as high as that of lock downs but a WHO spokesman last November said if 95% of the community wore medical masks in public COVID would not be a problem. The problem is that if COVID is not visible in a community people tire of mask wearing and governments do not have the the spine to enforce it until herd immunity is safely obtained.
In Australia COVID is contained in hospitals and quarantine facilities there is almost no community transmission. However government are too ready to think all is back to normal until it pops up somewhere and there is a snap lockdown.
In Brisbane Queensland Australia last month COVID escaped from a hospital and 2 clusters of infection popped up one of 5 and the other of 7. Queensland’s government had to impose a 3 day lock down to stop their growth. Had a mask mandate been in force the escape might of resulted in 1 or 2 subsequent infections but no more.
1, 2, 4 – NO
3 – MAYBE/DEPENDS
Based on actual peer reviewed science, not on political/social media based science.
Masks don’t work, they were originally introduced to enhance public confidence and have been retained as a ongoing prop to keep people in a state of heightened anxiety.
Here is an expert: https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/
But look at practical examples:
In Scotland the mask mandates came in mid-summer when the virus was at it’s lowest ebb. It increased thereafter. I’m not saying masks increase covid19 transmissions as there are many variables such as climate however what is undeniable is that covid19 was significantly on the wane without masks and increased significantly with marks. That is simply fact in a field full of conjecture. At best they’re ineffective.
Texas got rid of all whole covid19 cult measures five or six weeks ago. No lockdowns, no masks, full sports stadiums. The covid19 cult were desperate for disaster. Instead cases have dropped dramatically. Again, simple fact. Wee Fauci is at a loss to explain it.
Masks don’t work.
“Here is an expert: https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/”
Here is the expert “My Doctoral degree is in “organic” chemistry, specifically, chemistry involving carbon-based compounds. “>
Why masks work is down to physics, in particular, ballistics, not something that comes within the purview of an organic chemist.
The weakness of your argument (whatever it is) is neatly illustrated that the only thing questioned within my post is over qualifications.
It’s a fairly basic point, that the only evidence you have to support your argument that masks don’t work is not actually an expert in a relevant field.
Masks work.
There, there’s my bald, unevidenced assertion to counter your bald, unevidenced assertion.
Bayard
You are absolutely correct and compulsory mask wearing, is why South Asian countries have so few deaths from Covid-19. They also put in place, proper track and trace systems. They didn’t mix covid and non covid patients in hospital wards. Other countries used quarantines, we didn’t.
Brill. I’d take it a step further: masks are counterproductive.
Above 900 ppm CO2 content in air considered to be harmful and against the law (in Belgium).
https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/
Some dermatologists claim that there are increased number of skin diseases under the masks.
https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/234827/rosacea/face-masks-can-aggravate-rosacea
It’s amazing what shit people will come up with just because they don’t like wearing masks.
As to your “evidence”, point 1, that goes for all masks for whatever purpose, so the corollary is that we should all stop wearing masks for anything and die young from inhaling dust into our lungs.
Point 2, there’s that word “can” again, which means that this effect only occurs on some people and only those people who already suffer from rosacea, so we are talking about pretty tiny numbers. You are aware, aren’t you that you can get a medical exemption from wearing a mask? So, if you are one of the small number of people whose rosacea is aggravated by wearing a mask, don’t wear one. That doesn’t effect the rest of the population, though.
There are masks and there are masks, some work better than others.
The minimum mask is a cheap surgical mask as worn by doctors and nurses in hospitals then there are properly fitted N95 and P2 masks that work somewhat better. The major effect of mask wearing comes from protecting other people from an infected wearer not from protecting the wearer from infection. The protection a mask gives a wearer is modest a 70% reduction in the probability P of infection to 0.3P but is worth having. Respiratory diseases are propagated by small droplets that humans emit when they cough, sneeze, speak or breathe and very few get through a textile face covering and those that do don’t go as far or as fast.
“Masks don’t work” – utter nonsense. Maybe you should tell that to hundreds of millions in Asia, because funny that, people wearing masks in South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan stop Covid, SARS, flu, cold, all airborne viruses dead each year. I wonder why if they don’t work? Maybe you should educate virus it should believe denialist lies instead of cold, hard facts?
Wow, do these guys live forever then?
Given our life expectancy in the UK, for all of our miserable diet and weather and us Jocks dragging it down, is higher than that of Vietnam & Taiwan and on a par with South Korea I’ll take living with our personal freedoms over these authoritarian, obedient societies walking around masked up any time. Colds, flu and all.
This persistent refrain over the last year that we should live more like the Asians, even the Chinese, has been one of the most bizarre elements of bizarre times. It is almost always pushed by those who have lived most of their lives.
I would love to see proof that the type of masks worn by the vast majority of the population here in the UK are of any benefit to anyone. They are most probably
counter productive, it just shows how idiotic we all are tramping round in over used masks loaded with every thing your body is trying to get rid of, stupidity beyond belief!
“I would love to see proof that the type of masks worn by the vast majority of the population here in the UK are of any benefit to anyone.”
Then go and look for it then. Why do you expect to be brought it on a plate?
That’ll be the same teaching profession that ‘jetted’ off to Italy for skiing holidays in March 2019 when it was already known that Covid was rife in Italy, and then they brought it back to the UK !
I’m afraid that along with some other professions, teaching has not come out of this fiasco very well …
You sound like someone who would know a lot of teachers.
Stevie Boy
I assume you are talking about one school trip by a Kent school, which should not have gone ahead. I know a few teachers and like me, they haven’t had a holiday since 2019. Also you said March 2019, when in actual fact Covid was known about in February 2020. Maybe you have access to information which nobody else has?
Good article. When you write that ‘ less people are dying than normally would at this time of year, on a rolling average over the last five years’, does this indicate that lick down has had a beneficial effect overall? and could this be due to the lack of daily rat race stress people experienced?
I am glad that the NHS who worked non stop, understaffed and underfunded for years, can now re organise itself to deal with the massive backl9g of cancelled ops and procedures.
Maybe now is the time for this Self serving Govetnment to recognise the mountains that have been moved by NHS staff and give them a 5% pay rise, as well as allow foreign staff and their families to stay here, without the fear of having the Home office’s zealous campaign to remove immigrants impact on their integrity and service.
Haha “lick down”
Great typo.
My apologies for being amused by this.
“Maybe now is the time for this Self serving Govetnment to recognise the mountains that have been moved by NHS staff”
Come on, these are the Tories you are talking about. They don’t do recognition unless you are already rich.
Has Sucharit Bhakdi taken an ‘immoral position’?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbWJ4xIPAkA
I don’t agree that rejection of vaccine is immoral. I don’t want it primarily for the following reason…
I believe the government is very corrupt and me taking the vaccine results in slightly more profits for pharmaceutical companies.
If I am wrong, then my vaccine can be given to someone in a third world country that needs it more than I do.
I fail to see how that position is immoral.
I totally agree that this government is corrupt.
But the point of vaccination is often not to protect the individual. It is a public health issue, which affects the population overall.
For example, if you do not take the measles vaccine, you are still unlikely to get measles now, but that is because of a public health effect of the vaccine programme across the whole population, not because of anything to do with your individual behaviour.
For another example, to bring your dog to another country you often need to have rabies vaccinations. This is not because anyone is worried about your dog dying of rabies. Nor is it because your dog is very likely to be carrying rabies. It is because it is a public health issue and if we take this action then, overall, on average, the number of rabies cases will be much lower.
I hope I have managed to explain something of the nature of public health but I realize it can be difficult to understand.
In case it was unclear I still don’t think we need vaccine certificates, just as we don’t require MMR certificates in schools and so on. I think the national take-up is good enough not to need certificates at all.
S
Appreciate your contributions (and agree with you on the Guardian BTW, they’re mad for passports) however your whole public health angle falls down on one simple fact.
The vaccine is not proven to reduce transmission.
Therefore there is no public health consideration in either having it or not. Simply a personal one.
Sorry you’re right, that’s a good point. As I understand, it is widely believed likely that the vaccine reduces transmission, but it will be quite hard to actually show whether or not it does.
I appreciate this is a public health issue, and understand the need for mass vaccination, but it’s a global public health issue. If my unused vaccine goes to someone else, anywhere in the world, what’s the problem? I think it’s somewhat immoral to put the needs of the British economy before global public health, and it’s selfish to put my personal health above that of less healthy people. The risk to me is miniscule, and decreasing by the day as more people become vaccinated.
My point about corruption is that for every vaccine that is taken up, that’s more profits for pharmaceutical companies. I’d prefer to not play my part in that. I can’t do anything to stop it but I can refuse to partake.
I don’t consider my refusal to partake in vaccination to be immoral, as Craig claims.
Britain had more stringent rules regarding rabies and was successful despite pet owners frustration. Brilliant example!
I’d have more time for the anti-anti-vaxxers if the government weren’t also proposing to vaccinate people who have had the disease and recovered.
Of course governments enjoy blathering on to us using 3 upturned wooden coffins and 2 bizarre union jacks. It is like a one year long electioneering hustings for a one party state. After the initial explanations, nothing whatsoever to do with the disease.
All this posturing and posing and farting around will have massively decreased our respect for politicians, while increasing our respect for scientists, but our irrational fears , mostly based on racism , will not have changed, possibly because they serve some psychological prop to our social tensions which in turn are exacerbated by not going to work and circulating with people from different backgrounds.
This disease has had a massive effect on all our mental health because we are social beings. We should take note of this effect when we consider sending people to places like prisons.
So I agree with Craig both that government bullying has to stop and that we have to not give in to the disease of wanting cast iron guarantees in life. We start Ramadhan tonight hopefully and will be coupled up with others for two hours with both inadequate ventilation and also with strangers.
Hopefully the vacvine/s will have greatly reduced the risk of dying from this disease, at work , at mosque, on public transport. But we should take note of the fact that social distancing has protected most of us even from catching colds. Ventilation and space is going to have to be built into all our shared buildings from now on. After that precaution , then we just have to carry on as normal.
We’ll all have to hope that your God is kind enough for none of you in the small unventilated room to have Covid. Just how selfish/ stupid are you? Please, before entering this room, write a letter promising that in the event of catching Covid you will stay at home, you will not use the NHS resources, you will not claim sick pay and if you die you will not require the state to provide any support for your family as you will have knowingly and intentionally put yourself at risk.
AliB
It isn’t a small room at all. But traditionally the congregation enjoy nearly boiling themselves with heat and nearly suffocating the poor reciter who is trying to think. They won’t listen to the sensible advice from a British Raj government.
The people who run the mosque have no sway over the cultural groupthink. The reality is that any amount of people generate an enormous amount of heat, but unfortunately no sense.
Approximately 100 watts of heat per person to be precise.
Bunch
There is nothing remotely immoral in refusing an experimental treatment that is of dubious benefit to the healthy and has no long-term safety studies. Trans fats, DDT, PCBs, the X-raying of foetuses, phalidomide and HRT were all dubbed ‘safe’ by the medical/pharma establishment. Herd immunity is moot as there is no evidence that the ‘vaccines’ prevent the spread – indeed as they reduce symptoms they may contribute disproportionately to virus transmission. A healthy person under 70, who is not vitamin D deficient would be exchanging a tiny known risk from the virus for an unknowable risk of long-term health problems from the jab. It is not a bet any informed rational actor would take – despite attempts at emotional blackmail from the uninformed.
Dr. Michael Yeadon puts the case far better than I could and is worth a listen.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/FFwI5uIzA7W8/
I guess when the state stops taxing us or starts employing targeted taxation then your silly comment might apply. Until that time, in the UK, the NHS still attempts to treat anyone who is sick – health care based on democracy.
These groups are more of a drain on the NHS than the Flu.
I drink and smoke and I believe I paid more in alcohol and cigarette duties than I will cost NHS.
I will go so far to say, I am paying for your healthy looong old age retirement!
Very grateful to your common sense and common decency as usual Craig. But… I don’t see why young people refusing the vaccine is an immoral position. We are told that having the vaccine does not stop you getting and spreading the disease, so there is no logic whatever in discriminating between vaccinated and unvaccinated; and even if it did stop the disease, there is no logic to vaccinating healthy people at no risk, if older people are protected by the vaccination (we do not insist that healthy young people have a flu jab). In fact vaccinating such people with an untested and unapproved vaccine that has been shown to cause higher mortality in this group than the disease is both immoral and criminal – and if a young healthy person at no risk died of such vaccination it is arguably manslaughter.
Dr. Alexandra Phelan warned in an article in The Lancet that “immunity passports” granting privileges to the inoculated and immune could “pose considerable scientific, practical, equitable, and legal challenges.”
“Immunity passports would impose an artificial restriction on who can and cannot participate in social, civic, and economic activities and might create a perverse incentive for individuals to seek out infection, especially people who are unable to afford a period of workforce exclusion, compounding existing gender, race, ethnicity, and nationality inequities,” Phelan wrote. “Such behaviour would pose a health risk not only to these individuals but also to the people they come into contact with.”
https://www.salon.com/2021/02/10/what-is-a-digital-vaccine-passport-travel-vaccination-covid-surveillance-foucault/
Already beach style deck-chairs have been printed with ‘RESERVED FOR VACCINATED PEOPLE” in several different languages 🙂 pfffft
Whilst I broadly agree with Mr. Murray that a vaccination or ‘antibody’ certificates to allow certain privileges is not desirable, I disagree on some of the other statements. Health may be a “personal matter” but public health in a pandemic of a highly contagious virus isn’t and it has been traditionally accepted that individual freedoms will suffer for the common good. How much these restrictions should extend or what sanctions should be applied should be a matter of consensus.
Throughout the debate around Covid-19 there has been a fixation on mortality rates and the projection and calculations of the infection mortality rate. The IMR cannot be accurately determined during an ongoing pandemic, nor does a universal mean IMR mean much because this is so dependent on so many variables. There is an undoubted high morbidity rate from Covid-19, that means that many who get it, around 1 in 5 will have severe illness and some of these will need hospitalization and some may not but will have to isolate themselves to stop spreading the infection and this will impact on the workforce. Moreover as Mr. Murray points out, the number of individuals affected by long Covid is not known. Currently the virus has also shown within a period of a year, abilities to mutate, and some of these mutations may impart vaccine resistance but also there is a possibility that it may enhance the effects of the disease making it more serious say for the younger populations. The fact of the matter concerning Covid-19 and SARS cov2 is that we still do not know enough about the virus, we still do not know enough about how long immunity through vaccinations last and so on, so it is too early to pontificate. Erring on the side of caution is therefore very important because we may never have another bite at this cherry. We already missed the chance to contain this virus early enough by pontifications and prevarications, including some by ‘experts’ and meddling politicians. The same concerns about freedom to travel to spread the virus indiscriminately have been made and free travel was not curbed at the outset. Let us bear in mind that we still do not know this virus enough to drop our guard. The big mistake here is that there is no proper national debate about how the totality of the response should be. It has been left to a government of inept and compromised politicians answering to lobbies, and without any appropriate parliamentary checks. I think it is the politics not the science that should be robustly debated.
Two other points. The seasonal adjusted death rate may have fallen to below previous years when deaths from Covid 19 have fallen and that may be due to reduced deaths from seasonal flu which is much less contagious and therefore responds to these measures to a greater extent. The second problem is the resurgence of a new wave in continental Europe, which may be related to their slow rollout of vaccine, but this underlines another point, the chain is as strong as its weakest link, and unless the whole world moves along and there is mass vaccinations elsewhere, this regional protection will not translate to a lasting situation.
An excellent contribution -copied and shared.
” Fewer people are dying…. “
There is overall too much emphasis on deaths. Many more people fall sick for a period, some requiring hospital treatment, and we still don’t know the full effects of long Covid. How long the symptoms may last, what effect it has on lifespan etc. Vaccination is worthwhile if it can prevent or even reduce the symptoms of long Covid alone. I know of two people suffering long term effects, one was self-isolating but was infected by one or other of his asymptotic sons who had carried on as normal. Perpetually fatigued he sleeps 16-18 hours a day.
I’ve now had both shots of the AV vaccine without any side effects. The GF had the Pfizer and suffered a touch of vertigo for a day or so after the second shot but is now fully recovered.
I have colleagues who are now suffering from, “Long Covid,” weeks after having the vaccine. Fatigue, joint pain, lack of appetite, breathing problems. I had C19 last year and have no intention of being vaccinated. Why should I? Nobody has proved any real risk of contracting it twice, and if what they claim is true, should one be unfortunate enough to contract the dread killer disease a 2nd time, it will be almost entirely harmless.
Take your Dr Mengele love-in and ram it sideways.
I also have had c19, and refuse to have the vaccine. The disease will always give greater immunity than a vaccine – why would I pointlessly risk serious harm, however small the risk? So what about my passport? The same goes for those under the age of 30, whether they have had the illness or not. As for your friend with long covid – a short course of standard dose of Ivermectin is effective in 80% of cases, and for the other cases, other treatments are available. This is not some wacky nut site conspiracy – check it out for your friend’s sake; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeYoXGoh96w
The censure of and deliberate smear campaign against the use of ivermectin as an outpatient treatment has been the clearest evidence of the duplicitous and evil scheme concocted by those controlling the narrative. I fully expect a campaign against budesonide to commence shortly. Any effective treatment would have scuppered the chance of emergency authorisation for the ‘vaccines’. Uttar Pradesh, an Indian state with a population of 240,000,000 has suffered just over 9000 Covid deaths in one year. That is a rate of just fewer than 4 per 100,000. Last time I checked, the U.K. death rate has been just shy of 190 per 100,000. Uttar Pradesh has been issuing treatment packs that include ivermectin to all that test positive since August. Coincidence I’m sure.
Uttar Pradesh life expectancy is 64 UK 81.
Any clues?
DWeller
This sort of statement is no proof of anything. The coincidence of two occurrences is no proof that one causes the other. There no proper scientifically conducted trials that shows the efficacy of ivermectin in treating this virus although I believe that there are trials. You obviously believe that the medical profession would rather see patients die at the order of some conspirators, than treat patients. That is a very dim view of the medical profession.
SA
I am very aware of that and upon reflection, I should not have led with that one as there are many other signals that are stronger. The contrast between Uttar Pradesh and other similar Indian states is informative however. I would suggest that those interested visit the FLCCC site, or use their favourite search engine to look up any of the many interviews with Tess Lawrie or Pierre Korey. To suggest that there is no scientific evidence for its efficacy is a mischaracterisation of the facts. The apparent obsession with RCT’s by the medical boards, as if the only evidence that is acceptable must be in this form, is completely inexplicable if they are acting in good faith. At last check, around 80% of treatments that are used by infectious disease specialists have no RCT backing. Ivermectin is one of the safest drugs in the WHO catalogue. There are very strong signals that it is effective, especially if taken early in the course of the disease. Its prescription upon a positive test is what Taleb would term a very asymmetric bet – No downside, but a potentially life-saving upside.
Is this a typo? – “the risk of mortality … is 117,000”. [1 in 117,000? – per year? ]
While I’m here, the vaccinations for foreign travel – yellow fever etc. – were recorded on a card with dates. Very simple. But the virus vaccination passport is likely to be a phone app with global positioning and facial recognition. All very sensible, no doubt, to avoid forgeries; but will it then be in place forever? So far, I think the government is playing a clever game. They aren’t (as yet) making it compulsory – so as not to annoy anyone – instead, they are leaving it for individual businesses to decide if they wish to demand it. Even though it’s a matter of public safety/liberty.
I see the Prime Minister has ruled out a summit on Northern Ireland, presumably because it might highlight his lies about the border. “If somebody asks you to [fill in a customs declaration], tell them to ring up the prime minister, and I will direct them to throw that form in the bin”.
Oh well, I will just have to put my hands up and admit to being “immoral” since I did not take up my ‘invitation’ for the ‘vaccine’. I will only take this ‘vaccine’ when I have to take it. And if I do take it will because I have been left with no other choice and it will serve as notice that without a doubt we are now living in a totalitarian state.
My thoughts too Madeline.
It has been clear for some time that we will only retain/regain our freedoms if we take them ourselves. Authoritarian governments with their collective of oddball advisors and bad actors will not cede control willingly. Having the vaccine unnecessarily is being complicit in this hysterical cult-like movement that will only end badly. If enough people are unvaccinated them the whole vaccine passport horror can’t function. I am not anti-vax, I encourage the elderly, the vulnerable or the obese to all have it. However, I have yet to have a satisfactory answer to a question I’ve posed repeatedly; why would I, a fit 40 something guy who has already had covid19* take an experimental rushed through vaccine for an illness that poses me no harm?
Craig’s idea of a moral imperative to receive the vaccine in order to reduce transmission is odd. There is no evidence yet that it does, all we can be sure off is that it lessens the effects of the virus in vaccinated individuals.
*I had it in Dec 2019 so knew right from the start there was something odd going on as the whole timeline was false. Speaking over the last year it is amazing how many people in Scotland believe they, or someone they knew, had covid19 in Nov-Jan before it was meant to be here. All with identical covid19 symptoms and all miraculously immune to catching it thereafter (my partner had it in March so it isn’t even overly transmissible in households)
@Davie: “I had it in Dec 2019”
Just for the record, so did I. By New Year’s Eve, I was experiencing the start of the symptoms, which put a downer on my celebrations. A few days later, I took to my bed for 2-3 days but symptoms weren’t too bad. The main characterising feature for me was a prolonged, dry and increasingly uncomfortable cough that went on for about a week, causing me to lose my voice and possibly with some bronchitis. Of course, it being only January 2020, there was no hysteria and it was treated as just another seasonal malady. TBH, I’ve has worse. A bad flu 30 years ago put me in bed for three weeks and I lost my sense of smell for three months. The first thing I smelt was petrol while filling the car. Boy, did it smell good!
Of course, after all this time, I’ll have no antibodies to covid-19, though a real infection will give me complete and long-lasting resistance to future infections — and, very importantly, will stop me transmitting it to others. As Rhys Jaggar points out, antibodies a’re a short-lived part of the immune system. That people are trying to exploit people’s ignorance for ulterior reasons speaks volumes to me.
As to why Craig should state that vaccination “is simply to break transmission”, I can only assume he gets his information from British media, which march in lockstep promoting the government agenda. To repeat what others have already said, there is currently no evidence that the codid vaccines prevent transmission. That’s not to say that they don’t but there is currently *no evidence* that they do. If the vaccines do turn out to be “leaky”, meaning that, while reducing symptoms, they do not prevent transmission, that would mean that those who are vaccinated have the potential to be asymptomatic spreaders and, possibly, incubators for new variants.
If the propaganda politic is removed from the equation, what exactly is Covid19 (also referred to as coronavirus, the virus or SARSCov2)?
Is it really a transmissible bacteriological virus or some other kind of on demand pathogen?
Not playing devils advocate, Im really confused by the MSM disinformation and I demand to know the truth before I get really angry ?
Coronavirus is a large family of viruses that has a crown type appearance under a microscope, Covid19 is the specific Chinese bio-engineered version leaked to the world, and SARSCov2 is the illness that one in four people who are infected with Covid19 go down with.
It is also complicated in that dictionaries are rewriting definitions, pandemic for example has been downgrades to allow this relatively low impact event to be included, cases no longer applies to people with illness and symptoms, but can be anyone that a grotesquely amplified test picks up viral fragments, and vaccine now cover experimental genetic voodoo that merely alleviates symptoms but does not stop illness or transmission.
Sometimes Craig you will try arguing for both sides of an issue? You try, but it just lacks your normal absolute, clear logic…….and comes off as mealy mush.
Why not this; Scottish independence would granted, if every Scot would allow the Scottish State to administer a “jab” and record and track everyone forever, as a true independent Scot – of course????????????????
This current “crisis” bestowed on society is manufactured at a level which society, in past history, has NOT ever experienced. Not from deaths, but from government controls.
Simply put, FEAR is being used to get people to surrender their freedom……..for the “carrot” of returning freedoms. Humans have experienced much worse diseases and survived without absolute government control of everything – this “flu” will be with us forever and will be used as the excuse to monitor everyone and control their behaviours.
Humanity is its own worst enemy and power corrupts – absolutely!
Craig you should be calling this out for what it is – an absolute power grab in the name of a virus!
“It is simply to break transmission. … I have expressed before my view that I believe that refusing to be vaccinated is an immoral position; it is to benefit from herd immunity while refusing to accept the very small personal risk from the vaccine itself.”
Craig, given your health and age, for you it may be sensible to risk the vaccine.
However, let’s be clear, as the vaccine manufacturers have stated themselves: The vaccine does NOT prevent the spread of Covid, the vaccine does NOT grant you immunity from Covid, the vaccine ONLY minimises the symptoms of Covid if you were to catch it.
The long term affects (>5 to 10 years) of this, novel, untested, gene based vaccine are entirely unknown. As the statistics show, for most people the vaccine is completely unnecessary.
IMO, If you are fit and healthy and not in a high risk group, you can just as easily protect yourself by taking daily Vitamin D supplements and retiring to bed with a Paracetamol if you do catch it.
100% Stevie Boy.
That the vaccine does not prevent the spread of covid19, or at best has not been proven to do so, is something so fundamental it is beyond me why people cannot understand it.
Once you realise it doesn’t stop the spread all manner of questions begin to arise. The simplest is why the drive, the overt coercion, to inject the whole population with something experimental if a) the illness they are vaccinating against poses them no harm b) the vaccine does not stop them infecting the vulnerable (who are already vaccinated).
I can only come up with three answers:
a) Cult like behaviour. This has been in evidence throughout, instead of protecting the vulnerable we entered the insane lockdown strategy when the vast majority, particularly the young, sacrificed their futures unnecessarily in some bizarre solidarity movement. I’m screwed so you’re going to be screwed too was sold as virtuous. Let’s bash some pots to celebrate. Vaccinating everyone is the (il) logical extension of this behaviour
b) Pharmaceutical profits
c) Something sinister
I think it’s a mix of A & B personally. When they come for my children there will be a war.
“That the vaccine does not prevent the spread of covid19, or at best has not been proven to do so, is something so fundamental it is beyond me why people cannot understand it.”
You can’t really talk about “the vaccine” as there are two, very different types of vaccine being used.
By being vaccinated I am highly unlikely to develop the more severe forms of Covid-19 and to die from it, and the same applies to everyone else of whatever age. That is good enough for me, a no brainer in fact. The vaccine passport is a different issue and not to be confused with the idea of vaccination itself.
There have always been silly people against it since Dr Jenner first scratched cowpox into people’s arms to prevent smallpox, which has killed millions on millions of people worldwide but thanks to vaccination development has been virtually eradicated. There is still no vaccine for HIV and HIV is still at epidemic proportions.
“By being vaccinated I am highly unlikely to develop the more severe forms of Covid – 19 and to die from it, and the same applies to everyone else of whatever age.”
That is such demonstrable nonsense. Profoundly daft.
Being under 70, not being obese, not being very weakened by other medical conditions, not being a person of colour in a climate where your skin absorbs insufficient vitamin D means you are highly unlikely to develop the more severe form of covid19 and to die from it. There is little evidence that the vaccine will reduce those risks.
Taking unnecessary experimental vaccines….
No it is you who is being profoundly daft. Just follow the science.
I’m really not being abusive, however ‘follow the science’ has to be one of the most trite, vacuous and ultimately meaningless phrases to enter public consciousness.
Stay Safe.
Science is not meant to be followed, science is meant to be challenged. That’s how science works.
AIUI, at least one of the two types of vaccine, probably the “new” mRNA type, is simply supposed to reduce the symptons of suffering from the virus, so “I am highly unlikely to develop the more severe symptoms of Covid – 19 and to die from it,” is probably true, although the original wording “forms” is nonsense.
Consider this. You might not become ill at all, which would seem to be a desirable outcome, but if you have no symptoms you could become an asymptomatic spreader, since, as has repeatedly been pointed out in this thread, there is *no evidence* that the vaccine prevents transmission. Hope is not evidence.
Did you know the original polio vaccine took 6 years to develop? Such a rapid development has been described thus:
“The Salk inactivated poliovirus vaccine is one of the most rapid examples of bench-to-bedside translation in medicine. In the span of 6 years, the key basic lab discoveries facilitating the development of the vaccine were made, optimization and safety testing was completed in both animals and human volunteers, the largest clinical trial in history of 1.8 million children was conducted, and the results were released to an eagerly awaiting public.”
It is remarkable that it only took 6 years. Most take closer to 10+ years to develop and some even as long as 20 years
You cannot *safely* produce a vaccine in 6 months, since, by definition, there will have been no chance to conduct medium- or long-term safety trials. Note the word “safely”. Anyone who tells you the vaccine is “safe” is lying, since they cannot possibly know.
Remember, that 4 out of 5 medicines never make it through testing.
“You might not become ill at all, which would seem to be a desirable outcome, but if you have no symptoms you could become an asymptomatic spreader, “
There’s quite a lot of evidence that those who show no symptoms do not spread the disease.
“There’s quite a lot of evidence that those who show no symptoms do not spread the disease.”
Can’t disagree with that. That would be consistent with every other respiratory virus ever known. It does therefore undermine every extreme measure pursued that were all built on and justified by the fallacy of asymptomatic spread.
@Bayard: “There’s quite a lot of evidence that those who show no symptoms do not spread the disease.”
That’s the current thinking for those who are unvaccinated. However, with the experimental vaccines, we simply don’t know how it will work. Once again, there is *no evidence* either way, which is not a sensible approach to take. There should have been proper testing and clear evidence gathered before embarking on a such massive vaccination campaign.
Stevie Boy
Vitamin D tablets . Having taken them for more than a year , a blood test showed I was lacking in vitamin D.
There again, if you keep giving the body vitamins, maybe it could give up making them for itself.
Similarly, with government generated fear, we have become so used to Gladio style false flags and manufactured fake wars , we no longer take any notice of government advice, even when given by a bunch of Tory teenagers on the make.
We all know if HMG enforced vaccination passports, ways would be created to bypass them , delivered like sweets to key workers, essential slaves and agents of the police, same as Mots and car tax.
The real reason this government cannot enforce petty laws is because it gives police immunity to all secret agents of the deep state , while the virus doesn’t.
So many people are now more equal than others, by consent of Keir Starmer , ex bent prosecutor, and the politicians in charge so much more equal that they are now regarded as irredeemable shysters
Keep it simple. Use masks and ventilate. If anybody refuses to take these simple precautions, you kick em out, not government.
Giyane.
Please be aware that the UK RDA for Vitamin D (400 IU) is totally inadequate.
Research has shown that doses of between 4,000 – 8,000 IUs are recommended, and safe.
I take 30,000 IU per day, with no ill effects.
The chief reason I take that much is that it noticeably reduces my appetite, and I want to lose weight.
Obesity makes outcomes worse for people who contract covid.
The RDA on my Vit D pills is 1000 IU, so I am not sure where you got your figure from. Having said that, I was recommended to take 3000 IU a day to bring my levels up to normal and it did the trick.
Why paracetamol?
If you mean controlling high temperature you are wrong!
With respect, to allow your loved one to take an experimental injection, under no circumstances can it be called a vaccine, is a criminal action.
The culling must be stopped.
Well said, Craig. And by the way, the eager submission of the “left” to every arbitrary and unscientific measure dreamed up by this government has triggered for me personally a total rethink of my political position, having been an active member of the Labour Party and Momentum until this time last year, I doubt I’ll even vote Labour at the next general election.
However I disagree when you state “that refusing to be vaccinated is an immoral position; it is to benefit from herd immunity while refusing to accept the very small personal risk from the vaccine itself.”
My own position is that I’d be quite happy to run the risk of catching covid (I’m 64 by the way), as I know a lot of people who’ve had it already and were no worse affected than when I had norovirus and adenovirus in 2017. The vaccines by contrast are an unknown quantity, they have simply not existed long enough for any clear likelihood of risk to have been calculated. In 30 years as a registered nurse I saw scores of people die from various causes. I would much, much rather die from pneumonia than have a stroke due to a blood clot in the brain and be left wishing I was dead but unable to do anything about it.
The other factor is that like you I dislike being bullied or psychologically manipulated, especially as I’ve studied psychological manipulation for many years and can therefore easily see through it. People like Matt Hancock, an instinctive authoritarian with public school prefect written all over him, can’t seem to grasp that many people will resist things being forced upon them that they might well have accepted if they’d been offered as a real voluntary choice. Likewise I’d be more open to persuasion from a government and media that didn’t treat me like an anxious five year old.
The fact is that how long the present unprecedented restrictions on normal life continue depends on three factors, namely money, politics, and human nature.
The restrictions are so massive an intrusion into normal human life that despite all the efforts of the government’s lackeys in the media, human social instincts will surely reassert themselves over the coming months, violently if necessary. I do anticipate major rioting by the summer if the present situation continues.
Set against this we have a political class who appear utterly incapable of ever acknowledging a mistake, for whom digging deeper is the only conceivable way to get out of a hole. Especially given that Boris Johnson is surely the most unprincipled PM for at least a century, and that Starmer is far more interested in rooting out the last traces of Socialism from his Party than in offering an effective opposition.
Last but not least there is the money. Six-monthly vaccines for the entire world, electronic vaccine passports, databases, tracking technology, the huge growth in online “learning”, shopping and “socialising,” and of course the futile, fatuous virtue-signalling of paper masks, are all making money for somebody, and those somebodies will be lobbying and blackmailing and deploying their celebrity scientists and useful idiots in the media for all they’re worth.
To be clear, I would far rather “do my bit” against the virus by catching it and thus adding to herd immunity, which I would have done long ago if not for the social distancing and lockdowns. In fact for all I know I may have caught it anyway or had prior immunity. For the government to insist on mass vaccination even of people who have had the actual disease flies in the face of all medical knowledge.
Great comments Pete.
Good to know there are forms of intelligent life out there. My friends and family are a mixed bunch of those the psychological terror has cowed, those who see right through it and the hypocrites who go along with it all other than when it suits them not too.
My workplace, full of middle class faux leftist sensibilities, have bought into the whole covid19 circus with incredible vigour. It’s horrifying. I suppose having a job even more necessary during covid19, a job that can easily be done from home and a job that pays enough to heat your home, shop aplenty on Amazon, watch Netflix to your hearts content and buy in a takeaway treat whenever you fancy allows you to be relaxed about the horror being inflicted elsewhere.
Breaking news – Shirley Williams has passed away. I remember her as one of the ‘gang of four’ who founded the Social Democratic Party (SDP) in 1981, together with the late ex-Bletchley Park cryptanalyst Roy Jenkins, David Owen and Bill Rodgers. Maggie Thatcher affected an inability to remember and distinguish the party’s abbreviation from SPD. The SDP eventually merged with the Liberal Party, and we got the LibDems.
May she rest in peace.
Let’s not forget that Tories love lavishing public money on their chums. Could be another motive for the government to push these damned passports – some chum or other will get the outsourcing contract.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/rebuttal-letter-european-medicines-agency-doctors-covid-ethics/5741659
There are other letters sent to the EMA to which you might be interested.
Best regards
Aye
Roger
Who’d have dreamt this post would have teed up an unremitting anti-vaxx message board? You must be shocked ..
Well said. I was thinking the same myself and am shocked considering that most users are usually rational thinkers. I have wondered however whether it’s something to do with the need to be dissident against anything that appears to be an establishment view. Vaccination should not be turned into a political issue. Vaccination passports is a political issue as pointed out here. However a far more egregious attack than even vaccination passports on human rights and liberties comes from new (England) government guidance on care home residents going out of the home. I quote:
“This guidance sets out the approach that care homes should take to planning and supporting visits out of the home where residents wish to make them. It explains the measures that should be taken by the home, the resident and others taking part in the visit – to manage the risks.
The most significant of these is the requirement that a resident making a visit out of the care home should isolate for 14 days on their return (the day of return is day zero).—
We recognise that in practice, this is likely to mean that many residents will not wish to make a visit out of the home”.
I am appalled.
I would have thought that when individuals who are usually ‘rational thinkers’ present fact-based arguments for being suspicious of those who wish to inject those who are at very little risk from the virus with a Government/pharma-promoted concoction of dubious benefit – a concoction that is currently still in Phase 2 trials I might add – one might be prompted to reevaluate one’s own position. That’s just me though.
“Who’d have dreamt this post would have teed up an unremitting anti-vaxx message board? You must be shocked”
Take the vaccine
I’ve already had covid19 and it wasn’t too bad. A nasty flu.
Take the vaccine
But if it’s possible to be immune (and all evidence points that it is) then I’m immune
Take the vaccine
But why?
So you can partake in public life
Hold on here, this isn’t right
Anti-vaxxer
But I’ve had all my vaccines and so have my children
Anti-vaxxer. Trumpian libertarian. Covidiot. Selfish danger to society.
We really do live in an age of unthinking.
Yup, you’re not supposed to think, you’re supposed to chant the slogans.
Goodness me!
Look at all the facts, regardless of the subject matter, and come to your own conclusions.
That is your responsiblity to your own family, and as such, its your duty to consider all the facts.
Nothing more, but nothing less.
I dont know all the facts!
But…. You obviously do not know any facts!
Most people who comment on this blog distrust the government, which is a fairly logical position to take with a government that has done virtually nothing unprompted by necessity, ideology or corruption, therefore they distrust them on the vaccine, too. Hardly surprising.
You should have seen it when 9/11 was mentioned….
ID cards are no doubt un-British. I wonder: if a prospective independent Scottish government wanted to bring in ID cards (in lieu of a hard border with rUK), would the enthusiasm for Scottish independence wane?
Yes, it’s an unfortunate fact that in their desire to do good and prevent disease that public health officials sometimes give out information that could be considered exaggeration. For many years the same has been done with smoking eg those who smoke less than 10 a day can give up after a few years and have no lasting health problems but this doesn’t suit the view they wish to put across so none will dare say it.
But I do disagree about the COVID ‘passports’ I am quite willing to see rights taken away to save lives – in the short/medium term. So my objection is that by opening up pubs, theatres etc to those with COVID Passports it slows down the ‘necessity’ to deal with those who don’t have one. The pressure on the government to deal with this timeously is two-fold. The people who have their freedoms temporarily removed are pressing for vaccinations and businesses will press for it (if they think it’s the only way they can re-open) It takes too much pressure of government to deal with it properly and, knowing this government, they’ll then do the least they possibly can get away with.
On the point of CFR, yes, it will be decades before there is even a range of figures to look at. But we can compare those admitted to those who then went on to die, in hospital. That may give us some kind of comparitor. I do feel that deaths HAVE dropped as we continue to find better treatments for patients and that it will ultimately be this, rather than vaccination, that brings us out the other side.
It will take years to sift through the information to realise what has really happened. Those who have done us wrong, like Boris, will escape both justice and the public glare. I don’t think the world will learn anything from this nor act any differently. After all, we faced the same problems with COVID as we did with Spanish Flu over mask-wearing. We saw an actual aversion in the US to taking precautions and it became very political. I don’t think people will be any better in another 100 years. Stupidity is always with us.
“But it remains a stubborn and undeniable fact, much as some people do not like it said, that Covid-19 has never been a major threat to young and healthy people.”
You are thoroughly mistaken, Craig, and the longer the more so. First, there have always been deaths even among younger people. Nor should we focus on these alone; we must also think of the cases in which damage occurs after the acute phase. This goes beyond what is now called long covid.
In addition, there is the mutant problem. The average age of those hospitalized is falling, and the courses of the disease are becoming longer and more severe. Meanwhile, there is an Israeli study that shows a significant reduction in protection at least for the Astra-Zeneca vaccine in the South African mutant. It’s a race against time. The more viruses in the wild, the greater the risk of creating mutants that invalidate the vaccines.
Other topic: Since a few days the RSS feed of your site does not work anymore. Can you please look onto this.
Thank you very much for your work.
—
[ Mod: Thank you for pointing out the RSS problem – as others have done both here and in the discussion forum (which is the best place to notify the site admin of technical issues). ]
There is no evidence that the impact amongst younger people is increasing – apart from on social media and the MSM false information spreaders.
All of these dreaded mutations that are being hyped only have around a 3% difference from the original strain – therefore they are not immune from whatever good the vaccine may, or may not, do. (Dr Mile Yeadon)
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/ex-pfizer-science-chief-on-the-covid-lies-part-4/
The whole mutant strain phenomena is a psychological warfare/political ploy to maintain controls and to limit freedoms – expect more over the coming months.
Meanwhile, strengthening the immune system with things like Vitamin D works as well against one strain as another.
“refusing to be vaccinated is an immoral position”
i am quite shocked on your position on this..
if this were a normal vax and not mRNA tech, i might agree
if the companies involved were not utterly corrupt and have paid out billions because of false claims about their products, i might agree
if the companies involved had not been given legal immunity , i might agree
if by taking the vax you are taking part in a medical trial without proper consent been given, i might agree
if there was ANY data on the long term health effects of this mrna tech, i might agree
but saying people are immoral for not wanting to be part of the above is shameful
I was interested to read yesterday that it was with Arthur Sackler’s help that Pfizer, previously a chemical company, started to make medicines. Arthur Sackler was already dead by the time his brothers’ Purdue company started to make oxycontin, but he had developed the marketing techniques later used for oxycontin for vallium and other drugs. Arthur Sackler was as responsible as anyone for the moral sleaziness of Big Pharma, and he set the tone for Pfizer as soon as it went into the pharmaceutical business.
@jim, Indeed, Testing, what testing? The animal testing phase is only occurring now, if you get my drift…
I was quite surprise to find that the Wikipedia page dealing with (m)RNA vaccine technology was only created on 17 February 2020. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RNA_vaccine&dir=prev&limit=500&action=history
“Health is a personal matter,”
In a normal and healthy society, health is definitely not a personal matter.
“and discrimination on the basis of health status cannot be correct,”
When this “health status” is actually “vaccination status”, it is correct.
The Nuremburg Protocol developed by the international community as a response to Nazi war crimes provides the population with protection against being coerced into forced and unethical medical treatments.
Enforced vaccinations are therefore an obvious move towards a fascist state.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
“Enforced vaccinations are therefore an obvious move towards a fascist state.”
Why do you try to argue with bullshit? “Enforced” (read compulsory) vaccinations are probably one of the most important public health measures that helped double life expectancy in the last century. And you’re comparing it to the Nazi experiments? Are you this stupid? BTW “Nuremburg” is “Nuremberg”.