This is verbatim from the official report of the UN General Assembly plenary of 16 December 2021:
The Assembly next took up the report on “Elimination of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”, containing two draft resolutions.
By a recorded vote of 130 in favour to 2 against (Ukraine, United States), with 49 abstentions, the Assembly then adopted draft resolution I, “Combating glorification of Nazism, neo‑Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”.
By its terms, the Assembly expressed deep concern about the glorification of the Nazi movement, neo‑Nazism and former members of the Waffen SS organization, including by erecting monuments and memorials, holding public demonstrations in the name of the glorification of the Nazi past, the Nazi movement and neo‑Nazism, and declaring or attempting to declare such members and those who fought against the anti‑Hitler coalition, collaborated with the Nazi movement and committed war crimes and crimes against humanity “participants in national liberation movements”.
Further, the Assembly urged States to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination by all appropriate means, including through legislation, urging them to address new and emerging threats posed by the rise in terrorist attacks incited by racism, xenophobia and other forms of intolerance, or in the name of religion or belief. It would call on States to ensure that education systems develop the necessary content to provide accurate accounts of history, as well as promote tolerance and other international human rights principles. It likewise would condemn without reservation any denial of or attempt to deny the Holocaust, as well as any manifestation of religious intolerance, incitement, harassment or violence against persons or communities on the basis of ethnic origin or religious belief.
In Ukraine, support for the Ukrainian nationalist divisions who fought alongside the Nazis has become, over the last eight years, the founding ideology of the modern post 2013 Ukrainian state (which is very different from the diverse Ukrainian state which briefly existed 1991-2013). The full resolution on nazism and racism passed by the General Assembly is lengthy, unnzaires but these provisions in particular were voted against by the United States and by the Ukraine:
6. Emphasizes the recommendation of the Special Rapporteur that “any commemorative celebration of the Nazi regime, its allies and related organizations, whether official or unofficial, should be prohibited by States”, also emphasizes that such manifestations do injustice to the memory of the countless victims of the Second World War and negatively influence children and young people, and stresses in this regard that it is important that States take measures, in accordance with international human rights law, to counteract any celebration of the Nazi SS organization and all its integral parts, including the Waffen SS;
7. Expresses concern about recurring attempts to desecrate or demolish monuments erected in remembrance of those who fought against Nazism during the Second World War, as well as to unlawfully exhume or remove the remains of such persons, and in this regard urges States to fully comply with their relevant obligations, inter alia, under article 34 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 1949;
…
10. Condemns without reservation any denial or attempt to deny the Holocaust;
11. Welcomes the call of the Special Rapporteur for the active preservation of those Holocaust sites that served as Nazi death camps, concentration and forced labour camps and prisons, as well as his encouragement of States to take measures, including legislative, law enforcement and educational measures, to put an end to all forms of Holocaust denial
As reported in the Times of Israel, hundreds took part in a demonstration in Kiev in May 2021, and others throughout Ukraine, in honour of a specific division of the SS. That is but one march and one division – glorification of its Nazi past is a mainstream part of Ukrainian political culture.
In 2018 a bipartisan letter by 50 US Congressmen condemned multiple events commemorating Nazi allies held in Ukraine with official Ukrainian government backing.
There are no two ways about it. The Ukrainian vote against the UN resolution against Nazism was motivated by sympathy for the ideology of historic, genocide active Nazis. It is as simple as that.
The United States claims that its vote against was motivated by concern for freedom of speech. We have the Explanation of Vote that the United States gave at the committee stage:
The United States Supreme Court has consistently affirmed the constitutional right to freedom of speech and the rights of peaceful assembly and association, including by avowed Nazis
That sounds good and noble. But consider this – why does the United States Government believe that avowed Nazis have freedom of speech, but that Julian Assange does not? You can have freedom of speech to advocate the murder of Jews and immigrants, but not to reveal US war crimes?
Why was the United States government targeting journalists in the invasion of Iraq? The United States believes in freedom of speech when it serves its imperial interests. It does not do so otherwise. This is the very worst kind of high sounding hypocrisy, in aid of defending the Nazis in Ukraine.
The second reason the United States gives is that Russia is making the whole thing up:
a document most notable for its thinly veiled attempts to legitimize Russian disinformation campaigns denigrating neighboring nations and promoting the distorted Soviet narrative of much of contemporary European history, using the cynical guise of halting Nazi glorification
The problem here is that it is very difficult to portray the Times of Israel or 50 bipartisan US congressmen as a Russian disinformation campaign. There is no historical doubt whatsoever of Ukrainian nationalist forces active support of Nazism and participation in genocide, not just of Jews and Roma but of Poles and religious minorities. There is no doubt whatsoever of the modern glorification in Ukraine of these evil people.
It is of course not just Ukraine. In Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania the record of collaboration with Nazis, of active participation in fighting for Nazis, and in active participation in genocide is extremely shaming. Throughout Eastern Europe there is a failure in these “victim nations” to look history squarely in the eye and to admit what happened – a failure the United States in actually promoting as “a campaign against Russian disinformation”.
I recommend to you the website www.defendinghistory.com, run by the admirable David Katz, which is a large and valuable resource on this website from a Lithuanian Jewish perspective that cannot remotely be dismissed as Russian or left wing propaganda. The front page currently features the December 2021 naming of a square in the capital after Lithuanian “freedom fighter” Juokas Luksa “Daumantas”, a man who commenced the massacre of Jews in Vilnius ahead of the arrival of German forces.
These are precisely the kind of commemorations the resolution is against. There has been a rash of destruction of Soviet war memorials and even war graves, and erection of commemorations, in various form, of Nazis throughout the Baltic states. That is what paras 6 and 7 of the resolution refer to, and there is no doubt whatsoever of the truth of these events. It is not “Russian disinformation”.
However the European Union, in support of its Baltic states members and their desire to forget or deny historical truth and to build a new national myth expunging their active role in the genocide of their Jewish and Roma populations, would not support the UN Resolution on Nazism. The EU countries abstained, as did the UK. The truth of course is that NATO intends to use the descendants of Eastern European racists against Russia much as Hitler did, at least in a cold war context.
You won’t find that in the Explanation of Vote.
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Well said Craig, in your inimitable style. This is what the state has been denying us for the last four months and boy is it good to see you back in top form exposing the hypocrisy of our government and our NATO partners.
“Throughout Eastern Europe there is a failure in these “victim nations” to look history squarely in the eye and to admit what happened”
Not just Eastern Europe, Western Europe too. There was no ‘resistance’ in France, for example; it’s largely a myth. France collaborated and shamefully persecuted Jews just as others did.
And for many in the east, Soviet “liberation” was more brutal and violent than German domination. I’d prefer not to to provide detail and sources, but if anyone requests then I can.
The problems we see fester today in Eastern Europe have historical roots in resentment of Russia on one side and legitimate security concerns on the other. They are all exacerbated by the ominous continuation and predatory expansionist drive of NATO.
If NATO didn’t exist, there would be a lot less tension. Let’s not forget the suicidal clause at the heart of that organisation, an attack on one is an attack on all, that has the potential at any moment to pull the whole world into a war that nobody really wants, as happened in 1914.
If the western economies weren’t so corrupt, moribund, and dependent on war, disaster capitalism, and arms sales, it might have been possible to come up with a solution that would stabilise Eastern Europe whilst giving satisfaction on security to Russia and more democratic freedom to governments in the area.
As it stands, all the ingredients are there for escalating calamity.
You wrote:
” …for many in the east, Soviet “liberation” was more brutal and violent than German domination. I’d prefer not to to provide detail and sources, but if anyone requests then I can.”
Propaganda blinds us all.
Sources, please.
If the truth is propaganda then I am definitely a victim.
Antony Beevor has researched this extensively and you can find references to his work all over the web. Or you can read his book, Downfall, which explains the scale of the atrocities.
Odd that you seem to be denying it. By “odd” I mean very unusual. Most either don’t know about it or try to excuse it in one way or another.
What you are dealing in is not history but propaganda.
In terms of racist crimes – of the sort practised by the Nazis against Jews, Roma and Slavs, for example – cold war propagandists have always been hard pressed to come up with any to blame on the Communists. Which is not surprising because the Soviet Union was founded on non-racist principles.
What the war on the Eastern Front, for which I am exceedingly grateful did produce were copious examples of misbehaviour on the part of the soldiery. One of the arguments against war is that such things – rape, looting, brutality – seem to be inseparable from war, though it ought to be recognised that the Red Army was a lot better disciplined than, for example, the US forces. The case of Korea is quite clear – it became a war of genocide, justified on the curious mixture of anti-communism and racism which became the dominant political ideology in US spheres of influence.
Meanwhile in the UK we have the wars in Kenya, Malaya, Aden and elsewhere in the empire to think about. And the part we played in setting up the Shah’s horrible regime, the sideline cheering as Pinochet fastened neo-liberalism on Chile, And this is not to mention the millions who died as a result of the retreat from India (engineered to produce perpetual massacres) and the triumph over communism in Indonesia, organised in British bases in Singapore and Borneo.
It is a matter of faith among fascists that “The Communists were just as bad”. But they weren’t and they were considerably milder and gentler rulers of those they ruled than either the US or Britain.
In the meantime what actually did happen in Basra little more than a decade ago? Or in Helmand province? And what about the alliance between the British state and unionist gangs?
So you are very straightforwardly in the ‘excusing’ camp.
I myself haven’t passed moral judgement on anyone but have simply pointed to facts which are relevant to the long-standing grievances many in Eastern Europe harbour.
“the Red Army was a lot better disciplined than, for example, the US forces.”
The US didn’t “liberate” Eastern Europe. They did however share in the occupation of Berlin and the record of crimes suggests they were actually much better behaved than Soviet forces. It’s estimated that 2 million Germans were raped by Soviet soldiers during the occupation.
In attempting to defend this, you reveal yourself to be quite unhinged and childish, because it isn’t defensible. And since anyone with more than two brains cells would know this was indefensible, I can only assume you are quite thick.
You mention Korea which isn’t exactly relevant but let me assure you I would be happy to write in gruesome detail on US crimes there. I can do that because I’m not some biased little cheerleader, like you.
Where are the facts Steerpike? Why do you think that estimates of Red Army rapes are always expressed in millions? Why are they never juxtaposed with similar estimates for the US, British and French armies?
In light of the fact that 20 million people of mostly Slavic origins were killed by the German army, the brutality against POWs sent to slave labour in Germany, the experience of the KZs encountered by Russian soldiers, I can understand the rage the Russian soldier has felt towards anything German.
And I am as a German just thankful that they just didn’t kill all the Germans they encountered, which to me would have been completely justified.
And let me say, having had discussions with Russians on various forums, that the Nazi crimes still are very much in the memory of the Russian population, and that today, in light of Germany’s behaviour as a NATO member, the sentiment that Germany should have been just wiped out is still strong.
I always also find it quite cynical that the likes of anglo authors like Mr. Bevor harp on the crimes by Russia, which I see as defensive actions and not being crimes, but justifiable actions by a justifiably enraged soldiery – there is nothing civilized in war, and the restrictions laid out in the Geneva conventions the that are continuously broken by all combatants are just laughable.
Especially galling in its cynicism when considering the fact that the destruction of Russia by atomic bombs as planned by the UK and the USA was only prevented by the lack of enough weapons to set this plan in action, and when they had enough of the material, Russia by that time had its own nuclear weapons ready to stop any realization of Operation Unthinkable or Dropshot.
“the brutality against POWs sent to slave labour in Germany”
The reality was worse. German actually followed Geneva conventions in respect to countries that were part of those convention, and POWs from France (like my late uncle) and Britain were treated tolerably. Common soldiers were subjected to forced labor, officers not. However, in respect to Soviet and Italian soldiers, the camps were closer to death camps, the lethality was appalling (Italy deposed Mussolini, Italians refused to continue fight on the Eastern front and the soldiers were sent to camps). Ditto with prisoners who surrendered to the Soviets.
However, on the side of western allies, the most horrible was the pursuit of “perfect firestorm”, finding ways to bomb cities in such a way that they would get engulfed in fires of “perfect intensity”. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed in that way, Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Yokohama and many other cities were perfect firestorms were not achieved, but the destruction was nevertheless huge and indiscriminate. Nuclear bombs were a decoration on a huge macabre cake.
Anthony Beevor is not a historian, he’s a hack who can’t write for toffee. You also omit western atrocities, a little comparative analysis goes a long way.
Katyn?
However it would have been better to have said “similar” rather than “more”.
Two wrongs have never made a right so far in history.
There is of course, one theoretical alternative open to the countries of Eastern Europe: form a Confederation of Independent States independent of the EU, the USA and Russia. Maybe historical bickering between individual states might make that challenging, but imagine putting the following into one bloc:
Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia; Poland; Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria; Slovakia Czechia; Hungary; Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Albania, Greece.
Not sure what the exact population would be, but it would probably exceed 100 million.
Access to the Baltic, the Black Sea and the Mediterranean. Access to the Danube-Main-Rhein thoroughfare. Good links to Moscow, St Petersburg, Berlin, Vienna, Istanbul, Milan and Munich.
Freedom from the decadent, woke culture of Western Europe and the USA, giving freedom to promote the traditional family, traditional sexual identities and whatever religions they considered worth promoting.
A danger of course of anti-semitism.
But certainly worth putting on the table if they ever want to become truly independent peoples…..
Poland has proposed this idea before of an Intermarium federation from the Baltic Sea to the Adriatic and Black Seas. Various nations in eastern Europe have rejected it, not least because other eastern European nations suspect that this is Poland’s way of reviving its old Commonwealth with itself as No 1 nation and they aren’t too keen on being bossed around by Warsaw.
Incidentally the Republic of Poland (as opposed to the old Commonwealth that ceased to exist in the 1790s) doesn’t have a very good history of treating its ethnic minorities; in fact Warsaw subjected many of them (such as Ukrainians living in the historic regions of Volhynia, Galicia and Podolia, currently the present-day strongholds of Ukrainian Nazism) to Polonisation during the 1920s and 1930s.
I keep wondering how come the modern Poland has become the most ethnically homogeneous country in Europe? Almost 97% of the country’s population are ethnic Poles. What had happened to everybody else? Where did all the Germans of Silesia, the Ukrainians, the Belorussians, the Jews disappear?!
It has already been started: https://www.visegradgroup.eu (though not independent from EU)
I am not sure about the “anti-semitism” stick.
“theoretical alternative open to the countries of Eastern Europe … a confederation…”
That may work as a topic of periodical meetings, there are many picturesque venues in this part of Europe. But as a practical concept?
Right now, Poland managed to pick conflicts with Czechia, Lithuania (perhaps the other side started), Belarus, German and even USA. My general impression is that solidarity among countries of this region is limited to smiles, however strained, during occasional meetings. Most importantly, the populations are weary of high sounding ideals but appreciates EU subsidies, something that Ukrainians would like to get, but, alas, EU countries that should generate those subsidies discovered that they have their own problems too.
Wokeness or fear of “imminent Russian invasion” are typical “important issues” that governments can handle and be given credit, so screwing the sheeple on the real issues could be put in a broader, more favorable perspective. Some creativity is needed, so there is a considerable variety.
For example, in Britain there was a link between a morbid attention to the real (IMHO) issues and the treasonous disrespect to the Tridents, and even, gasp, the Crown. This evil package included even riding shabby bicycles. Even when those defects were pointed out at length, the British deplorables (the rabble disrespecting Tridents and the Crown, and unable to tell the difference between a decent bike and a shabby one) were not impressed, but the disclosure of “rampant anti-Semitism” somehow allowed to get the situation well in hand.
I guess our host is innocent on the count of riding a shabby bicycle, but that was probably too little to avoid the tag “deplorable”.
« There was no ‘resistance’ in France »
That’s quite a scoop you’ve served up there, Steerpike. No resistance, you say. I’d ask my local council to take down all those fraudulent plaques I walk past every day, but they may need something more credible than your anonymous slur.
Thank you very much for commenting on this current clusterf**** by us , the Weste/Nato idiocy. It has brought a tear to my eye. I have bookmarked it and will need to reread it again in the morning.
There is nothing better to be said about this Narrative and attempt at dragging Ukraine into a new Vietnam quagmire.
So I’ll try and lighten the mood with this.
If only the police where I live had clear and concise powers …
‘Putin signs law giving police wider powers’
‘Under the newly-introduced amendments, while detaining suspects police will be able to enter homes and other buildings, plots of land and territories and also cordon off buildings, homes and territories’
– What? They don’t do that already? Wow!
‘MOSCOW, December 21. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a law expanding the powers of police officers. The law was uploaded to the official legal information portal.
Under the newly-introduced amendments, while detaining suspects police will be able to enter homes and other buildings, plots of land and territories and also cordon off buildings, homes and territories. Police officers are allowed to introduce themselves to detainees after the termination of unlawful actions.
Motor vehicles can be forced open and entered when this is necessary for saving a person’s life, or for maintaining people’s safety or public security during massive unrest and in emergencies. Police will be allowed to open cars, if there is a threat of a terrorist attack or for detaining persons whom victims of an attack or witnesses pointed at as wrongdoers, or for preventing a crime.
Police will be allowed to use these powers to enforce legal procedures in case of an administrative abuse, if there are sufficient reasons to believe that the wrongdoer is drunk. Motor vehicles can be forced open and searched, if there is a suspicion that they contain items banned from civilian circulation. If absent at the moment the vehicle has to be forced open, the owner must be notified within 24 hours and access of third persons to the vehicle prevented.’
https://tass.com/politics/1378821
Wtf?
If Russia police have such strict rules, what we are getting with the Criminal Justice Act in the U.K. is draconian in comparison.
I hope our plod on the ground are paying attention to ‘orders they are following’. Nuremberg showed it not to be an excuse.
Although the AV quality is poor, this lecture by David Glantz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg) on the continental-scale nature of the Eastern Front during WW2 is a moving tribute to the sacrifices made and debt owed to the USSR in defeating the Nazis: whether it sticks in your craw or not, they won the war in Europe.
Another point rarely made is that the resistance welding machines that fabricated the PLUTO petrol pipelines (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9lBqPVuoE) used after D-Day were imported from the USSR, then as now the world leader in this technology.
I don’t agree. I have American friends who trot out the ‘we saved you” – they never mention the USSR.
The truth us it took the British Commonwealth, the USSR and USA to crush the Axis forces.
Russia was supplied with aluminium, ford trucks, machine tools and rubber, without which their forces would not have had the air craft or mobility. The air raids on germany drew off much of their air force.
I acknowledge their 13 million military casualties. If the standard of leadership and tactics had been better, the toll would have been much lower.
Few would doubt that the USSR was critical to the defeat of the nazis. It seems naive, however, to attribute their contributions to altruism.
They didn’t come to the defence of the Czechs, or the Poles – rather, they invaded and occupied Poland in concert with Nazi Germany. If Hitler had not been so ill-advised as to launch Barbarossa, it seems unlikely that the USSR would have taken any part in WWII.
Yes, their part was critical and their losses horrific, but I don’t see them as “heroic”.
No-one could ever accuse Stalin of being altruistic, and I was not suggesting that the USSR’s role in WW2 was either: it was a fight to the death between a State attempting to transition to Communism (the correct term for that transition period being Socialism, reflected in the name of the country at that time) and a capitalist State attempting to stop that process in its tracks. That fight to the death was accompanied on both sides by multiple acts of betrayal and pure barbarism, but let the regime that is without fault throw the first stone – meaning examine the post-WW2 record of the “peace-loving”, “democracy-exporting” USA and its proxy anti-Communist and resource-securing wars since 1945 which have resulted in the deaths of between 15-20M people. Like the true contribution of the USSR to the defeat of Hitler, this latter figure is rarely publicised, for all the usual politico-ideological reasons.
A good preliminary source for conflict death figures is the Necrometrics (https://www.necrometrics.com/) website. It does not conduct any original research and could not be descibed as rigorous in any way, but in contrasting and comparing a range of ‘mainstream’ sources on each topic it arrives at what can be taken as ‘ball-park’ totals requiring further work.
Jim Palmer says: “They didn’t come to the defence of the Czechs, or the Poles – rather, they invaded and occupied Poland in concert with Nazi Germany.”
The Soviets repeatedly asked the Poles to let Soviet forces pass through their territory to defend Czechoslovakia. The Poles said no. Then Nazi Germany, Poland and Hungary annexed parts of Czechoslovakia.
“Within the region originally demanded from Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany in 1938 was the important railway junction city of Bohumín (Polish: Bogumin). The Poles regarded the city as of crucial importance to the area and to Polish interests. On 28 September, Edvard Beneš composed a note to the Polish administration offering to reopen the debate surrounding the territorial demarcation in Těšínsko in the interest of mutual relations, but he delayed in sending it in hopes of good news from London and Paris, which came only in a limited form. Beneš then turned to the Soviet leadership in Moscow, which had begun a partial mobilisation in eastern Belarus and the Ukrainian SSR on 22 September and threatened Poland with the dissolution of the Soviet-Polish non-aggression pact. The Czech government was offered 700 fighter planes if room for them could be found on the Czech airfields. On 28 September, all the military districts west of the Urals were ordered to stop releasing men for leave. On 29 September 330,000 reservists were up throughout the western USSR.
Nevertheless, the Polish Foreign Minister, Colonel Józef Beck, believed that Warsaw should act rapidly to forestall the German occupation of the city. At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czechoslovak troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czechoslovak foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km2 with a population of 227,399 people. Administratively the annexed area was divided between two counties: Frysztat and Cieszyn County. At the same time Slovakia lost to Hungary 10,390 km2 with 854,277 inhabitants.”
Guess what happened next?
“The Polish side argued that Poles in Zaolzie deserved the same ethnic rights and freedom as the Sudeten Germans under the Munich Agreement. The vast majority of the local Polish population enthusiastically welcomed the change, seeing it as a liberation and a form of historical justice, but they quickly changed their mood. The new Polish authorities appointed people from Poland to various key positions from which locals were fired. The Polish language became the sole official language. Using Czech (or German) by Czechs (or Germans) in public was prohibited and Czechs and Germans were being forced to leave the annexed area or become subject to Polonization. Rapid Polonization policies then followed in all parts of public and private life. Czech organizations were dismantled and their activity was prohibited.
…
Czechoslovak education in the Czech and German language ceased to exist. About 35,000 Czechoslovaks emigrated to core Czechoslovakia (the later Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia) by choice or forcibly.”
A few more tidbits:
“According to historian Paul N. Hehn, Poland’s annexation of Teschen may have contributed to the British and French reluctance to attack the Germans with greater forces in September 1939.
…
Daladier, the French Prime Minister, told the US ambassador to France that “he hoped to live long enough to pay Poland for her cormorant attitude in the present crisis by proposing a new partition.”
…
The Soviet Prime Minister, Molotov, denounced the Poles as “Hitler’s jackals”.”
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie#Part_of_Poland_(1938–1939)
When it became clear Poland is going to be the next country on the menu, the Soviets repeatedly proposed their assistance. Again, the Poles said no. It was only then that the Soviets decided to strike a secret deal with the Germans as part of the Germany–USSR Non-Aggression Treaty, signed on 23 August 1939. By the way, the USSR was the last country to sign such a treaty with Germany. And the first country to sign such a treaty was… Poland, which signed German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact on 26 January 1934 in Berlin.
The British and French gave Sudetenland to Germany in 1938 as a pretence. Hitler claimed it because it has a German majority but he really wanted war with Czechoslovakia and banked on a Czech refusal. By pretending to believe him, Chamberlain and Daladier deprived Hitler of his casus belli, the gold in the Czech national bank and the Skoda armaments complex. The other ulterior motive for allying with Hitler against the Czechs in 1938 was practical, the only army in eastern Europe that could protect Czechoslovakia was the Red Army and the Munich Agreement kept the Russians as well as the Germans out. Under the circumstances, the USSR can be forgiven for allying with Hitler in 1939. Unfortunately a wheel dropped off for the British, French and Soviet Union in 1940.
Thank you for the information, which the MSM have suppressed at least to such an extent that I, an attentive media consumer, did not notice it.
Not even the European states went so far as to vote against the resolution. That actually says it all.
Context can change significance. I might disapprove of Communism as such, but in the South African context, such as the stories of Ronnie Kasrils or Indres Naidoo, it meant opposition to apartheid. In the context of WWII I understand that the Ukrainians saw the Nazi invaders as liberators and protectors against Stalin’s Soviet rule. Similarly the Baltic states. Unfortunately for them History was not on their side, and in a few years Stalin’s forces were back with a vengeance. According to wiki Juozas Luksa was an anti-Soviet activist. He entered Lithuania clandestinely after WW2 and was killed by the KGB in 1951. Allegations that he beheaded a rabbi may well therefore be Communist propaganda. If true, however, I would agree that he shouldn’t be honoured.
There were a number of Jewish survivor eye witnesses to Luksa’s involvement in killing Jews, active in post-Soviet times. So definitely not Communist propaganda, I think.
I can understand the impulse that led nationalists to side with Germany against their Russian occupiers. But to extend that to embracing Nazism and the Holocaust, no I can’t excuse that at all.
Be careful. To liberal eyes condemning Ukrainian nazis looks suspiciously like antisemitism.
Eh? How can condemning Ukrainian Nazis appear anti-Semitic? It’s not even the same thing as disapproving of the State of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories. I would expect consistent liberals (I wonder if the word ‘humanitarian’ would be preferable in today’s world) to condemn all denials of justice, whether to Jewish victims in Europe or Arab victims in the Middle East. Though it must be said that the Nazis’ attempt at murdering the entire Jewish community has nothing comparable by degree elsewhere.
I think you’ll find that was irony, MJ, but unfortunately there is no HTML tag for it.
Finland sided with the Nazis against Russia, but certainly don’t support that view now, they were in an unenviable position, however.
Though there are crackpot nazis in Finland the general political consensus is on liberal democracy. They still don’t like Russia but they certainly haven’t resurrected old Nazi leaders or celebrate the Holocaust in the way the current Ukrainian govt does.
What’s changed is that the USA of old was perfectly happy to back a country like Finland with progressive politics as a symbol of freedom against supposedly authoritarian USSR.
Current Neo-Con thinking has no need for the pretence of liberalism in the Ukrainian against Russia because communism collapsed. In fact it wouldn’t at all surprise me if current US thinking would support a shift to authoritarianism right across Europe
The Soviet Union attacked Finland in the Winter War. Facing annihilation in a Realpolitik move: my enemy’s enemy is my friend they let the Wermacht in. They ended up at the end having to forcibly expel them.
The Fins lost Karelia in that war which still pains them. Remember Sibelius wrote his Karelia Suite. I have been through it on the train from Helsinki to St Petersburg. The Russians have left it alone as a buffer are, forest and bog.
If you look at the context, the Ukrainian nationalism, as we know it in the form of OUN, UNA-UNSA etc originated in Galicia in the interwar Poland, not in USSR. Their leaders, the much glorified today Bandera and Shushkevich, and the lesser known today Melnikov, Stetsko and others, initially were anti-Polish terrorists, and this is not a freak accident that some 50,000-100,000 Poles were later killed by OUN in the so called Volyn Massacre of 1943-5. The OUN leaflet of 1941 addressed to the Ukrainian youth did not mention Communism; it read “For the Ukraine without the Jews, the Poles and the Russians!” in a rude ethic slurs. In fact, the theorists of the Ukrainian nationalism had their own theory of the Ukrainian racial supremacy, quite similar to the German Nazism, the main difference being that the Ukrainian version was sort of a “we too” theory, claiming that the Ukrainians were related to the Nordic race and basically just as good as the Germans. It is quite common to argue that the majority of the OUN leadership were just opportunists who tried to get along with the Germans to overcome the Soviets but such arguments ignore the ethnic cleansing that OUN practiced during the war, and the fact that significant number of the Ukrainian nationalists, such as Petro Dontsov, openly embraced German Fascism, declaring that Fascism must be the order in the independent Ukrainian state. According to the By contrast, if, for example, the Polish Armia Krajowa fought both the Wehrmacht and the Red Army, OUN were only the eager lackeys for the Nazi Germany. When the German occupational authorities killed all hopes for an independent Ukrainian state in 1941 and, in fact, arrested Bandera and executed some OUN members (mostly from the so called OUN-M, the Melnikov’s branch), OUN did not start fighting the Germans, though even the dumbest of them already figured out that the Germans did not come as liberators. Some historians tried in wain to find any German records of losses suffered from fighting with the OUN forces and they never found any such records. And why am I not surprised? Instead, the Ukrainians volunteered into Police regiments and later into Waffen SS. The Ukrainian 14th SS Division “Galicia” suffered heavy losses against the Red Army and its remnants were later used against the Partisans in the Balkans. But I’m sure you’ll find an excuse for this too and declare this “freedom fighting”.
All of the above refers only to Galicia. Most of the eastern Ukraine has always been pro-Russian and fought the Germans as Partisans during the war.
Ukrainian auxiliaries of the Nazis also committed atrocities in Belarus, like the Khatyn Massacre (not to be confused with the Katyn Massacre of the Polish intelligentsia by Stalin).
Thank you for drawing attention to this. The situation in Ukraine is very worrying. The poisoned grievance culture merchants have taken over the asylum, doing everything to ensure that all the poisons lurking under the mud hatch out.
You had better be very careful with your `oh we’re a colony of England’ line, because it is a false and distorted view of history, which has done much to poison Scotland. I see much similarity between the racial hatred that you point to in the Ukraine and the anti-English hatred that the `we’re a colony’ merchants are generating in Scotland.
Blimey! Well said, Jim.
Anti-racism is a guiding light among the blue and orange hordes of British nationalism. A proud, famous tradition.
Jules – but I am neither blue nor orange – never have been, never will be. They may be right on this issue – the stopped clock is right twice in a day.
Jimmy —
You may be right that there are anti-English hate merchants in Scotland, but I (an Englishman living in Scotland for the last half century) have never met any, so I don’t think they can be very numerous.
The starting point for most of the independence supporters that I know, is the simple proposition that Scotland would be better governed from Holyrood than from Westminster — 400 miles away, and with other things on its collective mind.
This has probably always been true, but for 250 years Scots enjoyed the balancing economic advantage of participation, at the ‘leadership’ level, in the British Empire, and that’s all over, now.
Kind of off-topic, but not really. Any society is made up of good, bad, lazy and cowardly people. I’m sure the Ukrainians are the same and you must always remember that as an island race, we just don’t have any collective understanding of what it means to alway have a butcher of an enemy just over the next mountain, intent on destroying us.
The problem the Scottish people has had for well over a thousand years, is that they don’t find or support good leaders. They don’t appear to want them, to vote for them, to encourage them to stand, or to become them.
They do want to complain about them.
I can only assume the Scots (probably all the Celts) just don’t want anyone to have power over them, but just can’t be bothered demanding small government.
Nicola Sturgeon is just the latest in a long line of useless bossy-boots, the only clever thing she did was to pay off the media enough for them to canonise her.
For Scotland to ‘demand’ independence, is just more of the same. We shouldn’t need to beg or plead for a referendum, a united Scotland would just take it whenever it was minded to. But that of course requires leadership and a shared belief.
There is no leader on the horizon -and I would definitely not want to give Nicola Sturgeon any power whatsoever in an independent Scotland. Frankly, I can’t think of a single Holyrood, Westminster politican or Toon Cooncillor that I would entrust with even a bag of sweeties.
We need a new form of politics in Scotland, from bottom to top. Until we get that, I don’t see the point in seizing independence. It would just take twice as long as it should to sort out a Sturgeon-type mess if we did.
WJ , come on the Scots and Welsh and Irish have counter your obvious nonsense of “we just don’t have any collective understanding of what it means to alway have a butcher of an enemy just over the next mountain, intent on destroying us.”
Long time ago there were Romans, Vikings, French/Belgian mercenaries and the odd Dutch too.
Wally, there’s nothing uniquely Scottish about ‘not finding nor supporting good leaders’. The English do exactly the same, so do the Welsh. So do the USA, so mostly do the French, the Italians and the Australians.
Rhys Jaggar, well said. The problem is very widespread; maybe the concept of leadership itself is the root of the problem. Power corrupts – and attracts corruption.
Good shout Frank. Unfortunately, thought the empire might be gone, the Scots leadership are still receiving their wages and benefits.
Jimmy as you know it’s not the English Peoples who anyone has a problem with – most in the regions are abused by others in actual power in Westminster.
It is the Crown and its agents and its dumb minions who are the belligerents.
And being against THEM can in no way be compared to RACISM they practice through the centuries.
DunGroanin – that’s what you think and what I think – but there is an ugly group who *do* blame the English – and it gets rather ugly.
I’m fully supportive of Craig Murray’s main objective – which is to smash the power of the evil Anglo-Saxon empire, but I just don’t see how peeling off Scotland and making it an independent nation will help at all – especially when we have seen just how easy it was for them to get someone like Sturgeon (a staunch admirer of Hilary Clinton) into Bute House.
I think there is much greater chance of success against the Crown and its agents if we stick together, recognise that we do not have a problem with the people of England and that we basically all have a common enemy.
– “…but there is an ugly group who *do*…”
There will always be some. But there are very few. I live in England, in Essex, and I expect I’m “very English”. In 2013 and 2014 I spent a lot of time in Scotland, much of it with independence campaigners. I encountered NO, zero, anti-English sentiment among them, and I have not encountered any since.
It might be helpful if you understood what Scottish independence means and why it is necessary: https://www.facebook.com/YesHaddington/videos/1059504741259620
Thank you very much for covering this news, Mr. Murray!
I would also very much hope to hear your opinion on Russia’s proposal for NATO. This is being discussed very emotionally right now here, and the rhetoric of Western commentators is also hot-tempered and arrogant. Many even call this draft treaty an ultimatum, since there is a deadline until January 15 and a military response is envisaged.
Yesterday Putin commented that this draft is not an ultimatum, but an initiative for a peaceful diplomatic solution, since Russia is also taking on obligations.
Actually, we have two initiatives, one of which is for the US and the other is for NATO. It’s proposed to remove nuclear weapons from Europe, I think it would be very interesting for you to take a look.
To exclude misinterpretation and suspicions of the possibility of secret agreements, the Russian proposals were announced publicly (which for some reason especially irritated the US).
Tatyana …. well, the last time the USA/UK axis promised to help out in Eastern Europe, it didn’t exactly work out so well – at least not for the Poles, so I don’t really expect a different outcome for the Ukrainians this time.
David Hedgie – Appeasement: the shocking truth about the 1938 Munich Agreement (part 1 of 3) (The Naked Hedgie, 17 Dec 2021)
Jimmie, with my respect
my question was to Mr. Murray,
I’m asking for his opinion on Russia-NATO relations
I’m asking for his opinion on Russia-USA possible agreement on nuclear weapon
I’m asking for his perspective on European Union security
I’m asking for his thoughts on modern affairs.
You interfere with a country which is not a EU member, which is not a NATO member, you bring some outdated 100 years old history. Really, Jimmy, it is extremely hard to get an answer from Mr. Murray, he perhaps is not inclined to look into questions I put. And you now lessen my chance to get an answer. He is a historian and may be more willing to look into your historical stuff 🙂
woops – sorry – I’d be interested to see his perspective on this too.
No apologies need, I’m sorry if I sound rude. Actually, it feels very dangerous. I live in Krasnodar, you may check on Google maps it is very short distance from Donetsk, where they can most probably start launching their missiles on my city.
I trust Mr. Murray, so if he says “run, Tanya, run!” then I start packing my belongings and booking tickets. I was able to raise only one kid and I’m not going to risk his life.
Tatyana:
– “…it is extremely hard to get an answer from Mr. Murray, he perhaps is not inclined to look into questions I put.”
Craig seems usually to monitor comments here for some few hours after he posts, but rarely beyond. Craig published this post at around midnight GMT/UTC, and as you can see above, he replied to a comment at 01:19 GMT/UTC. Your comment arrived hours later. Craig is generally extremely busy, and may well never see it.
When Craig posts on this site, an alert is automatically posted to Twitter. If you have a Twitter account and it is set to Follow @CraigMurrayOrg, it should alert you instantly through your mobile ‘phone – though Twitter’s software may suppress that feature to some Followers. You could also post to Craig’s Twitter feed. Alternatively you could set up a feed reader application on a desktop or laptop system to alert you when Craig posts here, but the system would have to run continuously.
I think your question is a very important one, and I too would like Craig’s opinion about it.
Words seem inadequate, but I apologise, and sympathise with the threat you are experiencing due to the tensions regarding Ukraine. I remember the night of the Ukrainian coup, when the US military issued a record number of “Emergency Action Messages” to its nuclear forces and Russia reactivated the old soviet “Woodpecker” over-the-horizon radar; it was extremely tense. None of us need this shit; the world has problems enough without adding senseless rivalry. International cooperation is needed urgently.
Tatyana, I think Craig may have already answered your question near the end of his post:
– “The truth of course is that NATO intends to use the descendants of Eastern European racists against Russia much as Hitler did, at least in a cold war context.”
Of course, Craig cannot predict future events or details, so he may already have given the best answer that he can. “Cold war context” presumably implies that NATO doesn’t intend this to escalate; I find this sort of brinkmanship deplorably irresponsible.
Via its disproportionate influence within NATO, the US is striking economically against Europe too. Europe needs Russian natural gas right now, but with tensions so high Russia is unlikely to increase supply. This benefits US allies the Gulf Monarchies and commodity speculators, while ordinary people pay through rapidly rising energy prices. European greenhouse gas emissions are rising again as Europe resorts to burning coal to prevent power cuts. This is bad for everyone and the entire world.
I would imagine that with so many developments to catch up with – I’m most interested on his take on the Afghan withdrawal disaster and hundreds dead for example – that CM has to add to current developments. Just a guess obviously.
There are other independent journalists and bloggers who are also covering this, most notably MoA.
I have made some long posts there about the masterful phoney war response that China and Russia are making in the provocations over Ukraine and Taiwan.
That submarine incident has not been properly explained by the US/nato for example.
Generally speaking there are plenty of Arms manufacturers who have lost some of their market and sales this year through retreats and would happily want to sell billions more to wannabes of Europe and their usual markets around the world. Being idiots many nations will pay up the MIC with collusion of their corrupt ‘leaders’.
There is zero chance of Nato boots on the ground as admitted by US generals and Mercouris’s analyses of these admissions. It being obvious the entrenched Ukrainian banderists would be annihilated within 40 minutes of launching attacks on the civilians of Donbass.
A poked bear and dragon making massive noises of stomping through the forest towards these who think their fence is enough to deter the mighty beasts. Is actually quite funny. Russian strategy and tactics are unbeatable, they have no choice, otherwise invaders will destroy everything.
If there was any real plan to actually attack Russia via getting them entangled in a mini Vietnam/Afghanistan quagmire again, it has been dealt a massive blow by the Xi-Putin allies very clear statement of intent over the last few weeks.
It seems that they have evolved the SCO into a new economic and banking system that will allow all partners in BRI and BRICKs and many others who have been under the $ yoke of the WB/IMF/BIS with their reserves kidnapped to the US to join.
The current media war is a clear invitation to all Peoples with a real demand of a ‘UN’ that actually works.
This current world war fought through Covid and Emerging Technologies is over I think, and we in the west lost.
The surrender demands have been stated. Publicly now.
A new world order is demanded. As Xi put it very clearly and in clear English
“Whether a country is democratic or not and how to better realize democracy can only be left to its own people to decide. International affairs should be managed by all countries through consultation. Promoting greater democracy in international relations and upholding true multilateralism is the expectation of the people and the prevailing trend of the times.”
https://www.mfa.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202112/t20211215_10470186.html
It’s an ‘offer that can’t be refused’ to the Peoples of the world.
There are new sheriffs in town and the rigged game played by outlaws in a saloon they run is over!
That is the clear eye to eye ultimatum behind the bilateral and multilateral twin treaties being offered.
I hope the show of strength to the rest of the world is the end to the ancient Great Gamers.
The C21st can get on with raising the poorest of the whole of humanity and not just benefit the very very few Masters of Money and Slavers of Humanity, knowing that the US/western Empire is dead and they have good partners with the new multipolar guarantors.
In addition to MOA on this emerging issue, for anyone wanting some grown up analysis, there are a number of useful sites which include Paul Craig Roberts, Scott Ritter, The Vinyard of the Saker and Andrei Martyanov.
The text of the two treaties proposed by the RF – which are only a few pages in length – are here.
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790818/?lang=en
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en&clear_cache=Y
Jimmy it didn’t work out great for a Yugoslavia much more recently either by the same two.
Thanks Tatyana. I’ve been following this proposal with some interest, and have been extremely dismayed at much of the Western response. Because they are so blinded by their own propaganda, they don’t see how serious this could become. I do not doubt for a moment that the Russians (supported by China) will not back down from their red lines, as they feel their national security is threatened. If treated properly it could be a recipe for a much safer Europe. Instead, the blusterers will have a disaster on their hands.
Julian, thank you.
I think we cannot count on the Chinese support. Maybe to some little extent, not on large scale military support. I’m only talking about military action, because the things look like the West takes seriously only power and military action.
As to the Chinese, they are extremely polite and evasive in their statements. There’s an opinion here in Russia, that the Chinese’s attitude is like the Russian’s ‘anything, but war’. As many who experienced military conflicts in their territory, who lost much of their population historically, those become very cautious in their wordings.
Nonetheless, this cautious diplomacy doesn’t mean a lack of will, or blindness to see a threat. It only means that people choose the right moment for action.
Unfortunately, this cautious diplomacy is seen as weakness by the Western governments. That all scares me to the guts. I appreciate Putin and Xi way to speak out in a manner according to our culture tradition, but also I think that it’s the right time to learn to talk in a manner which will be clear understandible by our Western ‘partners’.
“I think we cannot count on the Chinese support. Maybe to some little extent, not on large scale military support.”
However, the only “weapon” the West can realistically use is economic. Here China support is essential. There are already economic war of sorts with China and Iran, and the prospect of those three cooperating economically. In immediate aftermath of comprehensive economic war, Russia is immediately covered with consumer goods, what the West can block are not daily essentials. Then there could be an issue of essential parts and materials. As a combination, Russia and China together are just to big to isolate from the rest of the world without economic chaos everywhere, including neutral countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America, so a tense compromise would be reach.
Militarily, the West cannot do anything in Ukraine. Any escalation can be matched and more, and they know it. China is essential for what happens next.
Hi Craig, glad you are back with your family. Yasha Levine covers quite a bit too on this from time to time on his twitter and substack https://yasha.substack.com/archive?sort=search&search=nazi
Thanks CM for bringing this to attention. Feels like we are living in parallel realities. The Chinese government must marvel at the West’s ability to be both apparently open and yet so effective in framing the Overton Window. I wonder if they conclude that the Western mass population is more passive than the Chinese and that they need a heavier lid / a closer or tighter seal on the pot?
How is the UN vote being reported in Europe?
I’m assuming that U.K. supported so why so little coverage here? Is it that many UN votes are just not reported much?
You’ve reminded me to finish Paul Kriwaczek’s Yiddish Civilisation: The rise and fall of a forgotten nation. It’s an extraordinary story, which I had no idea about. This whole space and history was missed out from my modern European History curriculum.
Fwl,
The UK, along with Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and most of the nation states of Western and Eastern Europe abstained in this vote. Forty nine abstentions in total.
Details in a single image.
Thanks.
It shows the very clear divide of the unipolar world that is isolated not in control.
It could benefit from further analysis.
It is extremely interesting. All countries in formal military alliance with USA abstained except for Israel. Very few other countries, very few, some obvious suspects like Pacific island nations totally dependent on Five Eyes and a few that probably were genuinely not present like Mozambique and Iran.
Many interesting issues. How Tory Friends of Israel can explain the vote of their government?
More interestingly, the participants of the Summit for Democracy are spectacularly split, “inclusive, fascism tolerant” variant of NATO and “fascism intolerant” variant. If nothing else, Asia (with three exceptions), Africa and Latin America seems poised for neutrality in a putative economic war between China+Russia (+Iran?) and the West. That is enormously important, as it would remove the teeth and reduce this war to Mutually Assured Economic Destruction for the West getting more than it can take.
Still, the vote is symbolic and does not represent intentions very well.
“NATO intends to use the descendants of Eastern European racists against Russia much as Hitler did”
Aye, Craig – and the West will use these Ukrainian Neo Nazis in the same way they have radical Islamist groups in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc. as a proxy combat force supplied by the US military industrial complex.
You just need to look at Ukraine’s Azov Battalion for example.
Has Stewart MacDonald MP, the SNP’s Spokesperson for Defence and recipient of the Order of Merit of Ukraine, Third Class been approached for comment?
>>>>
Has Stewart MacDonald MP, the SNP’s Spokesperson for Defence and recipient of the Order of Merit of Ukraine, Third Class been approached for comment?
<<<<
Bugger.
To be fair ! It must be difficult for those regimes that are currently courting the right wing and embracing nazi practices to have to come out and oppose the basis for their governments ? It’s the thin end of the wedge, next those pesky ruskies will be asking the UN to criticise Israel?
In my youth one could go into a cinema at any point in the movie and then stay to see the beginning one missed. This feels similar, in my early years mass murder was happening in Europe but I missed the earlier part of the story – I’m catching up now.
We only have to look at Boris, of Skripal fame and Biden, who supported the Iraq war, to understand the role of disinformation by our intelligence services in the competition for legitimacy between blocs and nations.
These intelligence quangos are a self- serving, self-perpetuating constant source of mischief, masking reality and gaslighting voices of reason. They are able to transport jihadists in Maidan or Libya in order to create realitees that don’t exist. Trump, bless him, cut through swathes of fat on the carcase of global politics, leaving the world relatively lean of intelligence quango tripe.
Biden and Boris’ teams only know how to make tripe, and they negotiate on the basis of their own teams’ tripe whis is of course bad faith. Fortuntaely Putin and Xi recognise bad faith.
Looks to me as though the Democrats have learned absolutely zilch in the Trump years and Trump will soon be elected back by an extremely dissatisfied American public.
– “Trump, bless him, cut through swathes of fat on the carcase of global politics.”
He did, but sadly it was merely an unintended consequence, stemming from Trump being an outsider to the Washington clique. Julian Assange’s perspective (from before Trump was elected) covers this in depth – I think the following may the relevant interview, but I don’t have time to check:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BplfViSKd6Y
Here is a link to how all countries voted in this resolution:
https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/3951466?ln=en
I must admit, I am struggling to understand why any country’s government would direct their representatives to abstain. It’s clear from that list that the whole EU bloc abstained, including Germany. Aside from the obvious “coz the US asked us not to support it” what is the political end served by abstaining. How does such horse trading work?
It’s quite simple – as are most politicians.
Russia bad, China bad, USA good.
The problem is that not enough people read your blog. LBC’s Iain Dale, who has about 800,000 listeners, had an hour last night of what could, if one was being uncharitable, be described as Russia bashing. The narrative was about what sanctions the west can impose on Russia if one Russian soldier enters the Ukraine. Are the Russians potentially dangerous and must they be contained (discuss). The poor Ukranianes. The 2014 overthrow of the democratically elected Gov was described as a revolution! Crimea was annexed! There was no mention of the UN resolution. No mention of the The Azov battallian or Right Sector or the continued glorification for the long dead Bandera. Mention of 14000 dead. No mention of what percentage were from Donbass. The callers were mostly if not all supportive of sanctions against Russia. I do sometimes wonder as to who some of these calllers really are.
Yes. What you describe is, of course, the Overton wndow.
Craig, hello, I’m surprised to see you here. Several of us request that you post about the current NATO-Russian tensions; please see above.
Hi Clark,
Yes, I had left the page open and just saw what was (then) the last comment. It’s rather a large subject you broach. I will see if I can do something substantial, but missile placement brinkmanship is always a stupid idea.
– “…missile placement brinkmanship is always a stupid idea.”
Hello Craig. Indeed. Sigh. Stupid, dangerous and expensive.
One wonders if the US government was really taken by surprise at Pearl Harbour.
For some time, the Japanese had been subject to increasing sanctions, military support for the Chinese Nationalists and the transfer of the main naval base to Hawaii.
It seems incredible to me now that the Japanese response to this pressure was not expected.
Surely there were some in the Roosevelt administration who realised that different cultures place their red lines in different places and may be less averse to risk. Surely some allowance is made.
What concerns me now is that they may not learn from the past. Or worse, maybe they do – last time it turned out to be a great economic triumph.
With the social media age and the greater access to information and alternative viewpoints it has become very apparent that we must place most of what we were taught in the past in the skip and relearn it. Pearl Harbour is one of those things, as is the role of Nazi scientists and industrialists in the ‘American renaissance’ after the war.
Russia and China have their red lines, if the USA and their sychophantic puppets force a military reaction it could make Pearl Harbour seem like a mishap on a boating lake. If Americans believe they are protected by their geographical location they are fools.
“One wonders if the US government was really taken by surprise at Pearl Harbour”
Err.. no, at the highest levels, no.
Japanese Naval and Diplomatic codes largely broken and infiltrated, their every move known – but the resultant intelligence retained at the very highest levels – ie. not shared with the commanders at Pearl Harbour.
The WW1 era floating scrap moved from California to Pearl Harbour and lined up in neat lines against the wishes (a screaming match more like) of their immediate commanders, indispensable as pretext symbols – completely dispensable as military assets.
The modern carriers being moved away to safety before the attack.
Of course it’s become trendy among left leaning thinkers to dismiss “conspiracy theories” as “right wing” (it used to be the other way about), however if you have any intelligence you quickly begin to realise history is more or less nothing but “conspiracy”!
Just so. The 2 aircraft carriers were not in harbour because they were on their way to Midway Island to reinforce the fighters there…”because they were expecting an attack by Japan” Amazing what you can find on the internet. Pity many historians have overlooked this detail.
There is a seven part series on YouTube “Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor” (harbor not Harbour). Its an old documentary which has evidence not mentioned elsewhere. The Neutrality Act prevented US entering another war in Europe. We had broken both German and Japanese codes. We had blockaded Japan before Pearl Harbour. The Whitehouse ordered all intelligence reports to go directly to it, not to go to the Pacific Fleet commander or the commander at Pearl Harbour.
“Harbor” not “Harbour” as you point out. You then make the same mistake. Duh!
Vinyl. The youtube title is spelt Harbor. I am English and spell it Harbour. I have no opinion on how one should spell it, but that people can get the accurate title to see the documentary on youtube, as there are many on Pearl Harbour with the establishment narrative.
Pearl Harbor is American, hence the (correct) spelling. Sorry, I thought that was already obvious.
Vinyl, European Americans speak English. The indigenous people of Huawei were colonised by European Americans and have their own names for their country. Pearl Harbour is not American. The US Air Force have huge fuel tanks of fuel that have leaked and poisoned the natural water aquifers in Huawei. They want the US and their bases to leave.
Come off it; how do people writing in the past know what questions we will ask about it? The Japanese attacked several other places at the same time (Philippines, Malaya, Hong Kong) and everyone got taken by surprise; did the British betray their garrison in Malaya too?
If they kept their own commanders in Hawaii out of the loop why would they alert the British?
Yes everyone got taken by surprise – except at the very very top in the US.
Churchill knew and was desperate for US to ener the war. Our double agent Popov went to Hoover to convince him that the Japanese were planning to attack Pearl Harbour and had asked the German military intelligence about details of the British aircraft carrier attack on Italian naval port of Taranto. Popovs handler was Fleming and Fleming Bond character was many say based on Popov.
I also think it’s disturbing that western, liberal, opinion; like the Guardian, is also ‘soft’ about the clear rise of militant fascist and nazi groups in Ukraine and elsewhere. That we don’t just choose to turn a blind eye, but are actually training, arming, supporting, protecting and nurturing these dangerous extremists, is cause for concern. But, as we’ve done virtually the same thing in relation to extremist Islamic armed groups, with disastrous outcomes; so I suppose one shouldn’t be surprised.
The Guardian will be with Ukraine’s Nazis all the way, just as it was with the Al Nusra boys in Syria.
And, the UK Security Services will be with Ukraine’s Nazis all the way, just as they were with the Al Nusra boys in Syria – and as they were with the UDF/RUC in NI.
Plus ça change.
Indeed Luke Harding has just returned from a ‘journalistic’ tour of duty in the Ukraine.
The ‘Spooks Paper’ changed from the Daily Telegraph to The Guardian in the 2010s….
> There has been a rash of destruction of Soviet war memorials
Good. The USSR (under Stalin especially) was evil and I’m glad it no longer exists. But eastern Europe today is threatened by Russia, and in particular by a Russian government that regards Stalin as a hero.
NB Soviet war memorials in eastern Europe have often been nicknamed “the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist”.
> The Ukrainian vote against the UN resolution against Nazism was motivated by sympathy for the ideology of historic, genocide active Nazis.
You know full well the context: that Ukraine is today partly under Russian occupation and the Russians are threatening to invade more of Ukraine. The Ukrainian vote is of an anti-Russian nature not a pro-Nazi one.
“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it”.
As in the Ukraine and similarly in the UK.
Except the resolution is about Nazis and doesn’t mention the Russians. I have a certain sympathy to the replacement of some Soviet war memorials with less bombastic memorials to those who fought Nazism. I have no sympathy for replacing them with monuments to pro-Nazis.
Actually, it’s part of Russia under pro-Nazi occupation today. Strange that you’re not able to see it this way. Just try to not stop at history points fitting into your theory.
Even our historical Russian capital city Kiev, for centuries known as the Mother of all Russian cities, today is under pro-Nazi occupation.
Our Russian cities like Ochakov are occupied by NATO facilities, NATO being openly hostile to Russia and also led by a pro-Nazis.
How do you like it now?
Looks like the Soviet Union gave lands to Ukrainians, then Russia gave them sovereignty, and they used all of that to build an anti-Russian pro-Nazi US dominion.
There are very dangerous thoughts expressed here on the topic. Suggesting we should recognise Ukraine a terrorist state and start behaving accordingly. Yesterday at Defence Ministry meeting Putin used very clear language, I could never expect of him! Yelping sattelites, oh my! There was no translation of the Security Counsel they had next, I can imagine the more expressive language.
For me, this began with Germany’s haste to get Croatia admitted to the EU. Since then, several more states with histories entangled with Nazism have joined the EU in the east.
Russia’s problematic attitude to Ukraine is related, I imagine, to the fact that (a long time ago) Kiev was the capital of Rus, the predecessor of the Russian empire (Moscow was then occupied by The Golden Horde).
Russia’s claim on Crimea is based on the population being largely ethnic russian; but until Stalin sent most of the native population – Cossacks and Tartars – to Siberia, it wasn’t ethnically russian.
Anyway, the EU’s embrace of these Baltic and Eastern European countries, and the fact that the governments of some of those countries are rejecting treaty provisions requiring e.g. Rule Of Law, while still demanding EU subsidies, is one of the main reasons I decided I wanted nothing more to do with the EU. I don’t want to be trapped in treaties with countries where the government can stack the judiciary, and simply ignore treaty commitments to human rights.
“………..where the government can stack the judiciary, and simply ignore treaty commitments to human rights.”
Given what’s happened to CM and Assange I am intrigued as to what haven of purity you hale from.
Point taken.
But the UK government hasn’t been sacking judges, imprisoning opponents (with the notable exception of CM and Assange) or passing anti-LGBT laws.
“Russia’s claim on Crimea is based on the population being largely ethnic russian; but until Stalin sent most of the native population – Cossacks and Tartars – to Siberia, it wasn’t ethnically russian.”
Cossacks have never been the native population of Crimea. Crimean Tatars were never deported to Siberia; they were deported to Uzbekistan and neighboring regions of Kazakhstan and Tajikistan.
Russians became the majority in Crimea at the beginning of the 20th century:
1897 census: population: 546,592
35.6% Crimean Tatars, 33.1% Russians, 11.8% Ukrainians, 5.8% Germans, 4.4% Jews, 3.1% Greeks, 1.5% Armenians, 1.4% Bulgarians, 1.3% Poles, 2.0% others
1926 census: population: 706,757
42.7% Russians, 25.3% Crimean Tatars, 11.0% Ukrainians, 6.2% Germans, 3.0% Jews (including Karaites), 2.3% Greeks, 1.6% Bulgarians, 1.5% Armenians, 6.4% others
1939 census: population: 1,126,429
49.6% Russians, 19.4% Crimean Tatars, 13.7% Ukrainians, 5.8% Jews, 4.6% Germans, 1.8% Greeks, 1.4% Bulgarians, 1.2% Armenians, 2.5% others
1944 end of summer estimate (after Soviet deportation of 52,000 Germans in August 1941, partial evacuation of civilians in 1941–1942, German and Crimean Tatar killings of 135,000 civilians in 1941–1944 and Soviet deportations of 238,500 Crimean Tatars in May 1944 and 37,000 Armenians, Bulgarians and Greeks in June 1944): population: 379,000
75% Russians, 21% Ukrainians, 4% others
1959 census: population: 1,201,517
71.4% Russians, 22.3% Ukrainians, 2.4% Jews (including Karaites and Krymchaks), 1.8% Belarusians, 2.1% others
(skipping 1970 and 1979 censuses)
1989 census: population: 2,430,495
67.1% Russians, 25.8% Ukrainians, 2.1% Belarusians, 1.6% Crimean Tatars, 3.4% others
2001 census: population: 2,401,209
60.7% Russians, 24.1% Ukrainians, 10.3% Crimean Tatars, 1.5% Belarusians, 3.4% others
2014 census: population: 2,284,769
67.9% Russians, 15.7% Ukrainians, 10.6% Crimean Tatars, 2.0% Tatars*, 1.0% Belarusians, 2.8% others
(Native language: 84.1% Russian, 7.8% Crimean Tatar, 3.7% Tatar*, 3.3% Ukrainian.)
* Russia’s Federal State Statistics Service thinks most of these “Tatars” are actually Crimean Tatars.
The hypocrisy of the US and doubtless the UK, is staggering. They support Ukraine which is seeking the glorification of their anti-Semitic and Nazi past.
My paternal grandfather and his brothers all left Vilnius when Jews were being targeted by Lithuanian nationalists who later supported the Nazis. They escaped to South Africa but all the rest of their family and indeed all Jews in Vilnius (then Vilna) were murdered, either there, or in the camps. The surviving family members observed, to varying degrees, religion from Orthodox to, in the case of my grandfather, an atheist, zero. None of them however were zionist and they were appalled by Israel’s conduct. They would be revolted by the atrocities against the Palestinian people being carried out, supposedly in the name of Jewry.
What an indictment that Ukraine and the US (and probably others) feel emboldened enough to vote as they did.
Thanks for sharing the story, Ingwe!
With your kind permission, I’d like to share some my observation.
It seems to me, that those ethnicities or races who find themselves targeted and this discriminative targeting being supported by many around them – these peoples develop a sober alerted and wise mentality. This mentality of Jewish people is known and respected here in Russia.
I recently got involved into a discussion on racism in the US, so I had to get educated on the language and on what’s going on. I watched the video of Robyn DiAngelo on her White Fragility book, and I also turned to my Black friends from the US for clarification and explanation.
They confirmed that black people daily put much effort to not trigger white people on racist things. Another example of sober alerted and wise attitude, except for it should never be that way if we, the humankind, going to be more civilized beings than animals. Xenophobia in general and all of its forms like racism, anti-Semitism, pro-Nazism should be forbidden once and forever.
When we do nothing on it, then we should expect the wise peaceful attitude be replaced with anger. Quite natural reaction of every live being. Angry people tend to unite and fight, as we see with BLM movement, and with Israel. It’s easy to expect that angry fighting people will go far beyond the action reasonably necessary for defence. And we see it in BLM and Israel.
I’m afraid we will soon see angry Russian people defending their right for national security. And the core reason of that would be the reluctance of the Western countries to listen.
This is revolting, yet I don’t see any news reporting of it today? It does make sense of course, the US used neo Nazi ‘Right Sector’ to overthrow the elected government so it wants to keep them onside. The EU push previously to ensure peace was not negotiated by Ukrainian leaders ‘Ukraine must defend its borders’ (as an encouragement for their hoped for membership) and now new arms deals made as they hope for NATO membership too. The previous agreements made over Ukraine as it became independent have been torn up long ago by the West and now they’re surprised that RF is looking to renegotiate..
It just shows the fraudulence of these people’s endless lectures about and memorials to the Holocaust. Ukraine was the location of some of the most anti-human atrocities like Babi Yar. I knew Western politicians and media were deeply sick, but I didn’t know they were this sick.
Do you get your Kremlin KoolAid delivered direct?
This motion is NOT about combating neo-nazism or the glorification of the Nazis, it’s all about demonising and controlling countries like Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland and Ukraine. The first four of those were invaded by the Soviet Union and fought for their freedom, either immediately or after being ‘liberated’ and armed by the Germans.
This Russian sponsored vote in the United Nations wants to criminalise any commemoration of anyone “who fought against the Anti-Hitler Coalition”.
That means Finland, which was invaded by Stalin and which fought back, and we supported their fight, can only remember that war in a way approved by Putin.
That means the Baltic states, forced into acceptinng Soviet military bases in 1939, then forced into the Soviet Union in 1940 with rigged elections and referendums, with the results announced in Moscow BEFORE the vote, are not allowed to commemorate those who fought against Stalin, or those who were arrested, sent to the Gulag, or simply murdered. That’s despite the Latvians in the Waffen SS being pardoned by the Allies, since they were fighting for the freedom of their country and not for the Nazis, and their use as prison guards for the Nazi war criminals at the Nuremberg trials.
Most of all, this is designed to reduce support for Ukraine, not based on reality but on a fiction created in the Kremlin. Putin put out an essay earlier this year where he argued that Ukraine wasn’t a real country, didn’t have a real language, or any history, and had no right to exist. Imagine if someone said that about Scotland? But we don’t need to imagine it, we hear it often enough from Unionists.
Did Stepan Bandera collaborate with the Nazis? Yes, to begin with, until his demands for an independent Ukraine annoyed them and they threw him into prison to shut him up. Did some Ukrainians collaborate? Yes, but also some Russians, and a higher percentage of Ukrainians (and Latvians, Belarussians and Armenians) died in the war than Russians, despite Putin’s attempts to claim every Soviet victim as a Russian.
If Putin really wanted to crack down on neo-nazis they should look closer to home – there are dozens of neo-nazi groups active in Russia, and active in attacking and murdering immigrants, Jews and gays, and in sending militants to the occupied areas of Ukraine. Try looking up the National Bolshevik Party and their very familiar looking flag, or ‘Russian National Unity’, or just look at the far-right groups around Europe that get Russian funding like Le Pen’s National Front in France. Meanwhile Ukraine has had democratic elections which saw the far-right lose, and a Jewish President elected. There’s no sign of Putin allowing any challenge to his rule – he has too much money to lose.
As I suggested above, there is a common line used by Russian imperialists and by British unionists – ‘You don’t have a real country, it’s just made up’, ‘You don’t have a real language, you just speak a bad version of Russian/English’, ‘You have no real history’, ‘ You would have nothing if it wasn’t for us’, ‘You’re all Nazis, look at Stepan Bandera/Arthur Donaldson’. This UN motion is like England telling Scotland, now or after independence, that we can’t have monuments to Wallace, Bruce, or anyone else who fought for our independence, only to people and events they approve of. It’s Putin attempting to control other peoples history.
That a Scottish nationalist could go along with the same lies about Ukraine as he fights against when they are aimed at Scotland is appalling. Stop pandering to Putin and look at what he’s really doing.
Excuse me, but do you get your swastikas delivered direct?
If it’s swastikas you’re looking for, try Russia.
There’s quite a selecction here:.
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnaz.html
RedStarTrout – “there are dozens of neo-nazi groups active in Russia, and active in attacking and murdering immigrants, Jews and gays, and in sending militants to the occupied areas of Ukraine. Try looking up the National Bolshevik Party and their very familiar looking flag…”
I did, on the very site you linked:
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ru%7Dnbp.html
– “Since 2005, the party was barred from election registration and was completely outlawed in 2007”
Then you wrote – “look at the far-right groups around Europe that get Russian funding like Le Pen’s National Front in France”
So I looked that up too, and found a very strange story. The “funding” was a loan from an obscure bank called First Czech, which was bought by a Russian billionaire. Later, the Russian authorities closed it down:
– “…the head of the Russian Central Bank, was leading a broad crackdown on questionable banks, many of which had become playthings for Russian businessmen, mob bosses and politicians. With backing from Putin, she began closing banks with bad loans and insufficient reserves that threatened Russia’s economic stability.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-russian-bank-gave-marine-le-pens-party-a-loan-then-weird-things-began-happening/2018/12/27/960c7906-d320-11e8-a275-81c671a50422_story.html
I think you might have overstated your argument.
Nice to see someone who understands the value of freedom and the importance of the fight for independence! It must stand above everything else in our moral values system, right? Goal is everything, methods are nothing!
I imagine the moral torture to kill Jews in death camp burners, to finally achieve freedom for your own country. Really, heroes they were, indeed! How can we forbid making monuments to honour these heroes! It’s a pity that only Ukraine and US support, there’s still hope in those 50 abstaining countries.
Genially interested, you won’t deny the Russians such a right, will you? Your ideas are so progressive that you must recognise the Russians also have a right to use any means to fight for their freedom and independence.
Is there one Nazi state today? Some state which have educated the population to genocide peoples? We should definitely ally with such a state, it’s easy way to get to our own goals. And after the thing is done, our allies will forgive us. Isn’t it wonderful?
“Nice to see someone who understands the value of freedom and the importance of the fight for independence! It must stand above everything else in our moral values system, right? Goal is everything, methods are nothing!”
“I imagine the moral torture to kill Jews in death camp burners, to finally achieve freedom for your own country. Really, heroes they were, indeed! How can we forbid making monuments to honour these heroes! It’s a pity that only Ukraine and US support, there’s still hope in those 50 abstaining countries.”
In 1945 the Allies, even Stalin’s Soviet Union, recognised that the Latvian Waffen SS were field troops who had nothing to do with the Holocaust. They did not join the SS because they believed in Nazism, but because that was the only way they could defend their country against the Soviets. They were NOT fighting for the Nazis, but for their own country, which had been invaded first by Stalin and then by Hitler.
If that was good enough for Stalin it should be good enough for you. Nobody is building monuments to death camp guards. People do have a right to remember their own history, and that includes the illegal occupation of their countries, their family members murdered by the Soviet Union or by the Nazis, and the people who took up arms to defend their country and to regain their independence.
What you are doing is following the simplistic Russian nationalist view that anyone who opposed Stalin and the Soviet Union must have been supporting Hitler and the Nazis. That is nonsense. I know that the Soviet and Russian history of the war hides a lot of the truth (as does Hollywood) but you really should try to read more from other sources.
“Genially interested, you won’t deny the Russians such a right, will you? Your ideas are so progressive that you must recognise the Russians also have a right to use any means to fight for their freedom and independence.”
Here’s an important point. Russia is a sovereign state. It is free and independent. Russia can build monuments to the murderers of the KGB/NKVD if it wants, and while the rest of us might not like it, none of us will interfere. Similarly Latvia, Ukraine and the rest are also sovereign states. Russia has no right to interfere in their internal affairs.
“Is there one Nazi state today? Some state which have educated the population to genocide peoples? We should definitely ally with such a state, it’s easy way to get to our own goals. And after the thing is done, our allies will forgive us. Isn’t it wonderful?”
Russia. Russia today is the closest to a Fascist state we have today. Putin has been in power for over 20 years, and has changed the rules so that he can stay in power for another 15. No opposition is allowed. The only difference between the parties in the Duma is whether they support Putin a lot, or a lot more. The same can be said about Russian television – it can make Orwell’s ‘two minute hate’ look quite restrained, even at prime time.
He is a dictator who treats ‘elections’ as a loyalty test for local officials – the more votes for Putin they can declare, by any means, the better for their future careers.
The last 20 years of Russian history have followed, almost exactly, a plan set out by Alexandr Dugin in his book ‘The Foundations of Geopolitics’. He set out a plan for a war with Georgia, which followed in 2008, the annexation of Ukraine, which started in 2014, for the UK to break from the EU, achieved with Brexit in 2016, and an eventual ‘Eurasian’ state stretching from ‘Dublin to Vladivostock’, ruled from Moscow of course. I can’t imagine anyone here, or in Ireland, being happy with that.
Dugin was a founder, and chief ideologist of the National Bolshevik Party. I saw them on occasion in Moscow; their flags look exactly like Nazi flags, from a hundred metres away. Dugin has also has long established links with Putin, the Russian military, and far right groups across Europe. He is very influential in Russian political thinking, despite denials. He has enthusiastically predicted the rise of a Russian true “fascist fascism” in his article “Fascism – borderless and red”.
Dugin introduced Putin to the works of Ivan Ilyin. Putin was so impressed that he had Ilyin’s work reprinted and issued to civil servants across Russia as the new state ideology. Ilyin’s view was that the Nazi’s were wrong – they weren’t right wing enough as far as he was concerned. His mad, messianic, mystical fascism is how Dugin and Putin view all our futures.
You asked about genocide.
Putin has said that Ukraine, and so the Ukrainian people, do not exist, and are really ‘Russians’ living in a part of ‘Russia’. That, the elimination of an country and a people in a few words, looks a lot like genocide to me.
“Isn’t it wonderful?” No, it’s horrific.
I read your comment with attention until you started making assumptions on me personally, and I stopped reading when you mention 2008 war in Georgia.
There’s a decision by EU commeetee recognising Georgia as an aggressor.
So, I decided that reading any further is not worth my time. Thanks for your effort.
In old days we had Two terms. Nazi and Nazi collaborators. Now Nazi collaborators are just freedom fighters joining the Nazis and just following orders. Poor nazi collaborators they had no choice! Revisionism is name of the game.
Let’go step further and claim that nazis and fascist were not that bad because they fought British and French Imperialism (bad) and communism(bad). They were just fighting for the benefit of their nation and to impose best ruling practice on the rest of the untermensch.
RedStarTrout – “Alexandr Dugin […] set out a plan […] for the UK to break from the EU, achieved with Brexit in 2016…”
Ha! So it was nothing to do with David Cameron, Boris Johnson, the right wing of the Tory party, Nigel Farage, and a decade of propaganda from a load of UK tabloids. They were all just useful idiots. Amazing!
– “Dugin was a founder, and chief ideologist of the National Bolshevik Party.”
That’s the same National Bolshevik Party that the Russian authorities banned, right?
It’s always useful to hear the other side and avoid the echo chamber. I didn’t know about this UN motion before I read CM’s post. I didn’t realise the U.K. and the Euro had abstained until this was explained by an earlier post, I would have appreciated hearing this at the outset and details of how and who advanced the motion as this puts a different slant on it. I don’t know much about UN votes or of the politics of framing these things. I can see that there is probably some diplomatic artistry involved and that this may explain the voting. Yup there’s much I don’t know. Red Star Trout’s point about Russian support for right wingers is appropriate. I don’t know if that is driven by a shared ideology or out of a sense of give ‘whatever disruption tactic works’ a go. In the 60s it was left (as was the USSR) now it’s right (as is Russia).
It’s a fair truism to say that there are very, very right wing people in every country on earth and it just depends on how they happen to organise themselves when the s**t hits the fan. America certainly has them, the UK Security Services are full of them, that’s why they think they are above the law….
“Red Star Trout’s point about Russian support for right wingers is appropriate.”
Perhaps Russia just has its share of neo-nazis the same as the EU countries have.
If they can be used to disrupt Fussia you can be sure they will be.
You may argue that Finland fought for part of its territory (calling it “fighting for freedom” is an overstatement since there is no evidence to support the claims that Stalin wanted to occupy the whole Finland, and there were no military plans to move further North than Vyborg) in the Winter War of 1939-40, but in the Continuation War of 1941-4 Finland voluntarily joined Germany to fight against Soviet Union, and her goal was the creation of Great Finland, with its southern border from White Sea along the southern shores of lakes Onega and Ladoga and Neva river to the Gulf of Finland. The UK government ignored this initially, urging Finland to stop at the old border; however, when it became clear that the Finns wanted more than that, UK declared war on Finland on Dec 5th, 1941. Also, a total of 1,408 Finnish volunteers joined Waffen SS and fought mostly in the 5th Panzer Division “Wiking”. They definitely knew of the atrocities committed by the Nazis and some participated in such. See here for example https://www.timesofisrael.com/finnish-volunteers-in-ss-units-took-part-in-wwii-nazi-atrocities-finland-says/
Same propaganda for war, every time, but people still swallow it. It seems hopeless!
“Evil Putin” trying to invade Ukraine… how many times have we heard this now past years?
Not a single word about Zelensky’s falling support in the polls past months,
not a word about ukrainian mobilization for a possible assault on eastern ukraine where alot of russians are living.
What is really bad is also that Merkel left the scene, since then Germany’s new socialist government have cut off “RT Germany” from tv satelitte, have called for harsh sanctions against Russia, have paused North Stream gas transit and have made many idiotic warmongering threats against Russia.
Russia really have no sensible friend left in europe now, it is pretty dire.
– “Germany’s new socialist government…”
Let me guess; “Centrists”, like Blair’s mob, and Starmer’s?
Yes, also the greens that is part of the new government in Germany have taken a similar course.
During the cold war, these type of parties were the most peace-seeking, today it is the opposite.
Excuse me, Craig, but I am a Marxist and a supporter of yours. I do not require a site “that cannot remotely be dismissed as Russian or left wing propaganda”. I believe that the United States is the aggressor in Eastern Europe and I support Russia’s efforts to avoid a war that the U.S. clearly wants to provoke. After Afghanistan, the Russians are refusing to be enviegled into another imperialist war of conquest. And rightly so.
Russia does Not want to invade Ukraine or occupy it. This is the US plan to draw it into Ukraine as it drew the Soviet Union into Afghanistan. Yet Russia will protect Russian speakers in East Ukraine and act to stop US NATO bases and missiles in Ukraine. Any negotiations to reason with NATO and explain Russian concerns for its own security needs will fall on deaf ears. If an agreement was reached, it would not be honoured and also blocked by Congress. Both Russia and China want peace and development while US is addicted to ” Containing “any country that wants to be independent of IT’s own ‘Rules based Order”. US hopes and thinks it can limit any war to Europe and SE Asia. It has already threatened to use nukes as first strike ! The Generals and Politicians in Dr Strangglove film were not fictional only very much alive today.
There’s an official report by the US intelligence that Russia is not going to invade Ukraine.
The narrative is promoted by Psaki-like narrow minded people, I suggest Nuland. Nowadays every Mary from a remote village has Internet and her precious opinions. And they may believe the invasions are done today in the same way as in Viking times – hordes of soldiers with axes attacking the walls of a castle 🙂 That’s why a Mary gets excited to know Russia is moving its military inside its own territory. It’s just that sometimes Russia borders Ukraine, that may hugely surprise a Mary the villager.
Listen to those who have expertise and those who make decisions. Opinions are silly too often.
Making links between sympathisers of Germany in occupied territories in WW2, and current right wing movements eighty years after the event is bordering on a fools errand. The only connection is geographical.
The foreign policy of the Soviet Union in 1940 was premised on ‘peaceful coexistence with capitalism’ not a million miles away from Russian policy today if you think about it. This UN sideshow is political game playing and not worth much attention…_
They wear swastikas and have tattoos!
They wear Nazi uniforms at their Nazi commemoration events, they make monuments to honour their Nazi heroes. They arrange ‘torch marches’ in their cities, they burn people in Odessa, and they defend their right to continue doing so. You should watch their parlamentarian Farion praising Ukrainians on burning Russians. And, you shoul watch their Ukrainian Ambassador Marushinets, Hitler’s worshiper. Mind you, he is ambassador to Germany!
A few friendly corrections.
Edinburgh has had a torchlit procession at New year for quite a long time now. Are we all Nazis?
Iryna Farion is not a parliamentarian. She was voted out by the Ukrainian people in 2014. It’s called democracy.
Vasily Marushinets was not an ambassador to anywhere. Andriy Melnyk has been the Ukrainian Ambassador to Germany since 2014.
Nobody is currently being burned in Odessa. The events there in 2014 are contested, but it seems, from extensive video evidence, that a peaceful unity demonstration by Ukrainian football fans was attacked and shot at by pro-Russia militants. Those militants had stockpiled petrol bombs in a building which then caught fire, killing many people. The football fans rescued as many as they could, but a building full of petrol burns quickly. Whoever stockpiled those petrol bombs was guilty, not the fans.
It is also worth pointing out that the current President of Ukraine is Jewish, as was the Prime Minister from 2016-19. As a Holocaust historian from Dnipro said, “We have anti-Semites today, but we have no anti-Semitism as a state policy” – unlike in previous times when Ukraine was not independent.
See reply here:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/12/protecting-the-nazis-the-extraordinary-vote-of-ukraine-and-the-usa/comment-page-2/#comment-1005504
Craig,
I’m a long time supporter of your cause but your coverage of Russia (where I reside) and the Ukraine are extremely uninformed and lacks even basic fact checking.
Your coverage of Ukraine’s vote in the UN and possible reasons behind that vote reads like RT propaganda: “There are no two ways about it. The Ukrainian vote against the UN resolution against Nazism was motivated by sympathy for the ideology of historic, genocide active Nazis.” It is ridiculous to suggest that jewish Ukrainian president Zelensky (he runs country’s international relations and instructs Ukrain’s UN representative) is sympathetic to “genocide active Nazis”. At least there are more than one ways around this.
You say that it is very difficult to portray the Times of Israel or 50 bipartisan US congressmen as a Russian disinformation campaign. Who claimed that these people are a Russian disinformation campaign referred to in the US statement? Nobody did. The US statement doesn’t go into the details of the Russian disinformation but I can give you some idea of what Russian propaganda is like. In 2021, Russia’s state owned top TV channel NTV aired documentary mini-series «Тайна Катынского леса» that claims that thousands of Polish officers (Khatyn massacre, 22,000 polish officers killed by the Soviet NKVD) were in fact killed by the Nazis, a version held by the Soviet propaganda all the way from 1941 till the 1990. So no, the US document didn’t have to refer to the Times of Israel, it most likely referred to reviving wartime Soviet propaganda revitalised by a revanchist Russian state that you seem to defend.
Further you say that “there is no historical doubt whatsoever of Ukrainian nationalist forces active support of Nazism and participation in genocide”. Ukrainian nationalist forces never supported Nazism (i.e. the ideology of NSDAP). Their leader Stepan Bandera spent most of WW2 in German prison (September 1941 till September 1944). Two of Stepan’s brothers perished in Auschwitz. Only a full can think of Stepan Banders as a German Nazi. Ukrainian nationalists were very, very brutal people but that doesn’t make them active supporters of German Nazism. In your post you move on from the Ukrainian Waffen SS division to OUN as if these are the same thing. No, these are very different, and the glorification of the former was actually condemned by Zelensky himself.
You move on to condemning Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for their record of collaboration with Nazis. Let me point out that all three countries were occupied by the Red army before 1941 and therefore couldn’t have had much collaboration with the Hitler’s Germany. Once occupied by Germany in 1941, these countries became a part of the Reichskommissariat Ostland. This, no sovereign government of any baltic state can be held accountable for the collaboration with Nazis. As for the individuals, it was the Russian speakers who were by far the most numerous supporters of Nazis. Surrendered Red army servicemen, citizens left on the occupied territories and many White army Civil war immigrants from the 1920s volunteered to fight for Hitler. Germany relied on at least 1,5 million Russian speaking men serving in Waffen SS, ROA and numerous auxiliary police units between 1941-1945.
Finally, your dismissing Russian propaganda as a myth is extremely shortsighted. I agree that the US and the UK are often acting hypocritical and cruel as is in the Assange case. However, supporting Russia just because it is an adversary to the UK is precisely what some Baltic nationalists did when they played with Nazis against the USSR. You don’t have to side with Putin, that’s the road to hell.
Oh dear.
Lol. Sad so so sad.
It’s late. I’ll give you a fuller answer tomorrow George unless some one else has.
George. The majority of Ukrainians did not support the violent coup. They actually voted for a comedian who in his campaign urged good relations with its neighbour and not the US backed coup leaders. Zelenski unfortunately has little power and is slave to the real power brokers and their paramilitaries.
After the war, Stalin stationed Soviet troops in Europe – ‘to prevent the revival of Nazism’ was the short explaination in the history books. The explanation seemed strange to me. I thought no one in sober mind wants to support Hitler, because all of the Europe has suffered.
After reading your comment, it became clear to me what Stalin meant. Well done Stalin, that was a wise decision. It is a pity that the troops were withdrawn, look what we have today.
Whoa! Siding with Putin is road to hell, and siding with Hitler is road to freedom! Finally we get this in 2021.
I’m ashamed to live in one country with you! You may reside here, but definitely you are not Russian. Some Ukrainian maybe. By the way, according to the newly accepted UN resolution, you perhaps should be banned from this website.
Good morning Vietnam – sorry I mean good morning George! Isn’t it great ?
Can you smell the squeaky bottoms emanating from Ukraine and the wannabes Baltic and rump soviets and soft minded idiots herded by Stolenberg (resign loser!) as the latest proxy sacrificial goats of crappy nato and US invasion army, still feeding off the Europeans 75 years after they pretended to save it?
I’ll just refer to Bernhardt latest from last night which covers more detail and lists a large selection of knowledgeable experts and independent journalists who are addressing this sleepwalk to humiliation at best and disaster at worst by the Neocon/lib gits of the Dominate Empire. Try not to accuse MoA of being Chinese/Russian controlled. There’s a good chap.
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/12/what-russia-says-about-its-not-an-ultimatum-to-the-us-and-nato-.html
In fact I hope everyone reads that for the latest expert analyses on what we in the west are only being allowed to see from ‘our’ side – a clear racist provocation against Russia. A never ending fairytale of conquest that has not and will never succeed and which it is tired of being attacked every century in these attempts at conquest.
Our whole life would have been better without the Cold War, Nuclear destruction threat, militarised youth and absurd espionage games. Perhaps you and others will allow it to finally stop plaguing the future generations with its utter wastefulness of real resources which could have easily raised the human condition rather than perpetuating the ancient Masters Games.