I could not believe Putin really would invade Ukraine, because I could see no sensible outcome for him. I still cannot. Initiating a war on this scale has no legal justification, and no moral justification either. Russian troops are in areas which have no wish to be ruled by Russia.
Those of us who opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq must also oppose the illegal invasion of Ukraine. Whether the Ukrainian government is obnoxious or not is as irrelevant now, as the obnoxiousness of Saddam Hussein was irrelevant then. I am as fed up now with being asked if I support Ukrainian Nazis as I was then with being asked if I supported Saddam Hussein.
It is simply illegal to wage a war for regime change, without the endorsement of the UN security council.
I have great sympathy for Russian security concerns about encirclement by NATO and forward missile deployments. But seeking regime change by invasion in Ukraine could not possibly be the answer. I still have not the slightest idea what Putin seeks to achieve. It is simply impossible – and has been since the annexation of Crimea – that a democratic Ukraine is voluntarily going to elect a pro-Russian government. After this invasion, the only way a pro-Putin regime could be maintained in Ukraine would be by extreme authoritarianism, going well beyond the prevailing system in Russia itself.
Let me put it starkly. This can only finish with a government in Kiev which absolutely hates Putin as now do the Ukrainian people, or with Russia maintaining a puppet regime by extreme repression. There isn’t a way out with a peaceful, neutral Ukraine. Once you try to resolve matters by pure force, you lose that option. If I were Ukrainian, there is no way now I would be agreeing to the demilitarisation of my country.
As for denazification – which certainly is needed in Ukraine – Putin has given the “heroic anti-Russian nationalist” meme of the Ukrainian nazi groups a massive boost. While labelling the entire nation and government as Nazi is just wrong.
I did not think Putin would invade, for all those reasons. I did not even think he would acknowledge moving troops into the Donbass. I was unsure what to argue about that if he did. The Kosovo parallel with the newly acknowledged Donetsk and Lughansk republics is arguable. As a supporter of Scottish Independence, I am open to arguments from self-determination, and you can read Murder in Samarkand on the capriciousness of former internal Soviet borders. But this has gone far beyond that.
Yet we have seen nothing like the simply massive civilian casualties the West inflicted on Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan. Not anything like the same order of magnitude. In the town of Sirte, Libya alone NATO bombing killed 15,000 people. Casualty figures being given for the whole of the Ukraine so far are still in the hundreds, and thank God for that.
Sirte, Libya, after NATO bombing
Either Putin has not entirely willed the means, or his armed forces are resisting obeying his wishes. Russia has not unleashed anything like the kind of firepower that would need to be unleashed to subdue Ukraine. Western media has gone into full war porn mode, but the extent of real fighting is uncertain. There seems to be a great deal of shadow boxing.
I do not know the explanation for this. It seems very possible Putin has underestimated Ukrainian morale, and really believed Ukraine would crumble. In fact, Zelensky is playing a blinder in terms of maintaining morale, however staged his photo-ops. The more pressing question is whether Putin overestimated the willingness of his own military to kill Ukrainians, or whether Putin himself lacks the will. In Grozny, he was directly responsible for civilian casualties on a truly terrible scale, but is he like the West in putting much less value on Muslim lives?
Grozny Destroyed by Russia
To date, Kiev has faced nothing like what Sirte faced from NATO or Grozny faced from Russia – but not because Russia lacks the capacity to do it.
If Putin is himself ready for massive Ukrainian deaths, is his military pulling its punches? I am reminded of the War of Slovenian Independence, where the soldiers of the massively superior Yugoslav army just refused to kill Slovenes. In that case, many of the Yugoslav troops were initially told it was just a live fire exercise, which lends credibility to the idea the same is happening with Russian troops here.
Putin has not improved his negotiating position. My own friends and allies on the left are suggesting that the answer is for there to be a ceasefire and Western agreement to no further expansion of NATO, and a new arms control treaty governing missile deployments. That would certainly be ideal but it is not going to happen.
You have to understand the realpolitik of the Western elite. They will never damage their own interests. That is why the sanctions that would really hurt Putin, targeting companies like BP and Shell over their Russian interests or the real oligarchs like Usmanov, Deripaska and Abramovic, will never happen because they would damage the interests of the British elite. It is why the UK government fly Ukrainian flags but will not let Ukrainians come without visas. They don’t really care about the ordinary people at all.
The NATO leadership now see Putin in a position where he either has to back down and retreat, or inflict massive casualties on the Ukraine and get bogged down there for decades. If they wanted to save the Ukrainian people, this would indeed be the time for West to negotiate. But the lives of ordinary Ukrainians mean nothing to them.
So rather than find Putin a ladder to climb down, they will strike heroic poses, wave Ukrainian flags and send more weapons. I fear Putin will go for the mass deaths scenario. Macho is his entire brand, and his speech last Sunday was worryingly fundamentalist. I do wonder if he is losing the room at home – he spoke of the end of the Soviet Union as a calamity, but Russians under forty cannot even remember the Soviet Union at all. Nobody under 50 can remember it in any kind of functioning order.
One final thought for now. I applaud those brave people in Russia who have demonstrated for peace. Almost 2,000 have been arrested. But remember this – under the Tory government’s new policing bill, taking part in a demonstration in England and Wales not approved in advance by the police could bring up to ten years in prison. Just one example of the rife hypocrisy submerging us all at present.
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the consensus on craigs article at moa, is craig is out of his depth here.. he is better sticking to other topics then russia… i basically see it the same.. i admire craig and most of what he stands for and have donated money to him, but not when it comes to the topic of russia.. oh well..
Oh well, James, better to reference a consensus on some Russia right or wrong site than attempt to offer any substantive criticism of your own. Rich quality fare, keep it coming.
do you need a substantive argument to know the world is treating assange unfairly? but craig needs one to see how the same unfolds on the international scale with russia.. oh well… i am not interested in providing one…. if craig can’t see the parallels, i can’t help him..ironically this bullshit has been put on him, but he can’t recognize on an international scale…
“consensus on craigs article at moa”, you say? I only see 5 mentions of him:
james (you), Peter AU1, pretzelattack, uncle tungsten, laguerre
You don’t offer an opinion, and there isn’t even a “consensus” among the other 4.
Another day to live! Hello!
Ukraine delegation arrived for negotiations in Belarus. Both sides put little hope in it, nonetheless, it’s hope.
I’m glad they decided for Belarus, it borders both Russia and Ukraine, so is accessible by land. Israel would be bad choice, we don’t want any plane crush in the way.
Hopes bring optimism 🙂 Look what is today in our news:
Soros on Twitter on Ukraine situation. Twitter doesn’t work for me, so I copy the link and ask please someone check if it’s true.
https://twitter.com/georgesoros/status/1497572265659187200
George Soros @georgesoros
2:00 PM · Feb 26, 2022
Brave Ukrainians are now on the frontline and risking their lives in an onslaught that reminds me of the siege of Budapest in 1944 and the siege of Sarajevo in 1993.
Our news say that Soros compared the conflict to Budapest 1944 and Saraevo 1993.
“Soros compared the Ukrainians with the Nazi defenders of Budapest”
https://www.rubaltic.ru/news/27022022-soros-sravnil-ukraintsev-s-natsistskimi-zashchitnikami-budapeshta/
Russian article reminds that in 1944 Nazis in Budapest were defeated by the Red Army. And, in 1993 in Saraevo Serbs were fighting with Groats. Of course, obviously ironical style statement in the headline. Rather the point is Soros’ ignorance. But I don’t buy this sort of media, anyway.
Just for fun. Or, is it not funny? I mean, once a Holocaust survivor said that if you hear that they want to kill you, and at the same time they ask you to take such statements lightly, then it is in your best interest to take it seriously.
– “Twitter doesn’t work for me”
Me neither. Try Nitter; it’s a way of accessing Twitter posts without having to visit twitter.com
https://nitter.net/about
Would be interested to use Nitter. Following Clark’s link, at least to me, didn’t reveal how to use it. Not very tech savvy so clues would be great!
Try opening nitter.net and typing in the twitter user name you are interested in eg craig murray.
@Outfar – thank you. I realise now that the dialogue box that comes up is for the twatter poster you seek.
The meeting is only a formality, at least at this stage. The Russians will demand immediate Ukrainian surrender. The Ukrainians will tell them to go forth and procreate, as they should. Both of them know that time is on the Ukrainian side, so the only real question is, will Putin up the ante? Because the longer this goes on, the weaker his position gets.
how is time on the Ukrainians side? their country is falling apart. presumably they would like to stop, or at least delay, this process.
Time is on the Ukrainians’ side because, as impressive as the Russian numbers sound, they’re nowhere near enough to fight a war of attrition with determined defenders of a vast country like Ukraine. And make no mistake, the Ukrainians are not going down without a fight. That last fact alone should give pause to those — unfortunately, far too numerous on this site — who follow the logic that whenever something like this happens, it’s always the fault of the nasty west because…well…you know…shoes. People don’t fight to the last breath in the service of the EU or American multi-nationals, they fight for home, family, nation. Putin was supposed to overrun the country in 48 hours, and the fact that he didn’t means he’s not going to now. Anyone with the slightest grasp of the logistics can see that.
The graphic constantly shown on the newsfeeds of Russian forces entering Ukraine from half a dozen directions may look discouraging, but a) a multi-pronged attack like that takes unbelievable levels of coordination and planning, b) requires the dissolution of massed formations into more vulnerable pockets and c) becomes more and more open to counter-attack and insurgency the further west it rolls, away from the Russian areas and into districts where everyone hates you. Half a million top grade soldiers would be hard pressed to conquer Ukraine now, and Putin doesn’t have anything like that available to him. Bear in mind also that the 150-200 thousand he DOES have are not all fighting soldiers anyway. Many are support and logistical troops.
I could go on all day about what happens when you get drawn into street fighting, which is the thing every army hates more than anything else, (Stalingrad, anyone?) or the question about where Putin is going to get the money to fund a long war when there’s already a run on Russian banks, but I’m sure you get the message. He’s started something he just is not going to be able to finish, and what worries me is whether he’ll reach for the nuclear option, bearing in mind that in this case, “nuclear option” is not just a figure of speech.
it isnt “always the fault of the nasty west”, but it often is, and it is largely the fault of the nasty west here. if the nasty west wants this conflict to end, it needs to negotiate, and recognize the crucial security interest Russia has in keeping its borders NATO free. that should have given NATO pause.
@Athanasius I doubt it, the Russians won’t hang around, they aren’t American idiots and Ukraine is too divided to recover from their nazis being exterminated.
From what I understand, much of the Ukrainian army located near the contact line is getting rolled up in a “cauldron”.
For that matter, not only is Russia so far refusing to blast cities to rubble, they also haven’t targeted radio and TV stations, power plants, the transmission grid, water supplies or any of the other infrastructure that you normally destroy when you invade.
A friend of mine, who is a veteran of a few tours of Iraq, pointed out that the US would have flattened Kiev, Kharkov, etc., without a second thought for civilian or any other casualties. For that matter, Grozny got hammered in 1998.
And it beggars belief that neither Putin nor his generals can see that Ukrainian cities are still standing and haven’t asked anything like “WTF”. Do they not have internet?
If street fighting could win wars, Ukraine would have won in 2014. But they agreed to Russia’s terms because their main forces were encircled and faced annihilation. Now the same may well happen, and in a similar location. Only this time it’s not 6,000, but 100,000 troops.
Gosh ain’t you the great diplomat? How many ‘wars’ have you stopped with such charming advice?
The war is nearly done and the nato/nazis and their lumpen political purchases are having to stoke the flames to keep it going! Send in Armaments! send in Mercenaries!
Anything –
‘goddamit we need many many MORE civilian deaths!
These uke asov arseholes you guaranteed Chrystia are as bad as the Afghan army and special forces who are still supposed to be fighting.. all they can do is lube up bullets with pig fat as they hear the Chechens are coming’
Yeah I wonder how that plays with the pretend Islamic head choppers who have relocated from their killing fields in Iraq/Syria to fight ‘Russians’ in the Russians own backyard? ‘What these Nazi’ comrades are teasing us with pig fat????’
I expect plenty of ‘fragging’ – especially of the ‘contractors’ if any remain and haven’t run off to ‘safe’ Poland.
If there remained any doubt about the reasons for the Russiagate attempted “soft” coup against “I want better relations with Russia” Donald Trump, the reaction of the West to Russia’s attack on Ukraine should answer them. Just as Curtis LeMay stated in 1968 that America should vengefully bomb Vietnam back to the stone age as the former’s inability to defeat a peasant Third World country sank in psychologically, so the West has never forgiven Russia for attempting to transition to Communism – they are determined to grind the country into the dust.
“The West is the best”, as The Doors mockingly sang 50+ years ago, 50 years ahead in terms of perspicacity.
* Soft ” You want a soft Poem. ?
The Anglo-American Empire and the great game, which is essentially all lies and propaganda in the service of war for military expansion. Intelligent people should know better than to believe a single word of the likes of US/UK politicians and the oligarch/US controlled corporate media. Shameful NATO nonsense often being defended by the so called UK left all over the media is nauseating.
Tiresome Baltic warmongering…Latvian Parliament Authorises Country’s Citizens to Fight in Ukraine Amid Russia’s Denazification Op
https://sputniknews.com/20220228/latvian-parliament-authorises-countrys-citizens-to-fight-in-ukraine-if-willing-1093439947.html
I also wonder what Russia expect to get from the talks, I believe Ukraine will most likely take a hardline stance.
Perhaps Ukraine will approve disbanding neo-nazi/radical groups? Perhaps approving some type of peace agreement with Donbas?
I wonder how many Latvian MPs will be joining their citizens. There seems to be quite a lot of “here’s a gun, now go and fight those horrid Russkis” going on at the moment from people who are determined to stay as far away from any actual fighting as possible.
On the previous page Goose shares Wiki link
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/ukraine-how-can-the-war-end/comment-page-4/#comment-1011481
The Wiki entry is about 2010 Ukrainian presidential election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election
I scrolled it down and found this:
“The list of major issues raised in the campaign included:
According to the Director of the Penta Center for Political Studies Volodymyr Fesenko there were only small differences in the election programs of the various candidates. The link won’t open for me
https://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/53400/
—
Ok, the sense of my posting is – they were discussing joining NATO as far back as 2010, perhaps earlier too. The key here is after USSR broke, Ukraine accepted neutrality status and Soviet nukes were withdrown from there, with all possible inspections and authorised bodies. If I remember it correctly, it is written in Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine’s neutrality and nukes-free status.
Ukraine mentions this paper often after in 2014 it lost Crimea. Because Russia is guarantor of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territory under this treaty. Taking Crimea undermines it.
Ukraine lies by omitting her own undermining of the treaty, by becoming a NATO partner.
So, here we are. The problem is not about Ukraine or Nazis, not about provoking a war. All of that is collateral noise. It’s about Russia’s security and Russia-NATO relations. Our move to suggest a draft treaty with NATO back in December was met with arrogance. Ukraine’s position is in general irrelevant, their clown shouldn’t open his mouth in Munich saying they want nukes. Nobody here believes he is talking for his country, we understand he is talking head for Washington.
Negotioations of Ukraine and Russia means nothing. We need very much negotioations of NATO and Russia.
Alexander Mercouris, that guy with red maroon button 🙂 covers the latest UN meeting on Ukraine. Starts at 17:00
https://youtu.be/93Awcr3mUMs
He says China, India and UAE abstained. China and India being nuclear powers, and UAE being long-time US ally.
I’m not an expert on China, just I know that if China steps away from their common style of diplomacy, and start making not even hints, but direct statements from officials, then it should be taken as equaling hysteria in the Western media.
https://twitter.com/ChineseEmbinRus/status/1497321464126746626
What is important is that this was placed in Chinese Foreign Office, and also reposted by Chinese Embassy in Russia.
Well, I hope all this nukes talk is taken very seriously among big boys, who should be responsible for our world. And, in a situation like this, I think many European countries with their incompetent politicians doing now quite opposite of what should be done. I don’t even mention that they literally are putting themselves onto the target list. Someone please calm them down and don’t let them make loud statements.
Dear Mods, or who is editing, please, you just gave me a real heart attack! I updated the page and there was only half of the list of issues. I just got a panic attack imagining a bucnch of spies watching this blog and editing it in favor of mad monkeys with nukes!
ooofff, thanks for listening to me 🙂
I stil visited the Wiki page and screenshoted the list, to leave the truth for generations to come. Hope historians of future will find it 🙂
—
On Nazism. I see Westernes do not perceive it like we do. Recent UN resolution on Nazi glorification was rejected by US and Ukraine, Germany abstained, as well as all the EU. Several explanations were made on WHY? And, none of it ensured Russia of our security. Mr.Murray wrote about it
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/12/protecting-the-nazis-the-extraordinary-vote-of-ukraine-and-the-usa/
Well noted by someone here, it is often perceived as fascism. And I understand that discussing Nazism a Westerner will most likely shift the focus to the loss of freedom, that a fascist state brings. For Russians it’s different. Nazism is justification of why one people deserves extermination, for Nazi people have more living space.
And, today it’s we who are targeted.
To be crystal clear, we were targeted the last time also. Now all the attention was shifted onto Jews. Ask anyone in the West, they only say it’s Jews who were targeted by Nazis then. They have now idea of Nazis’ view on Slav people. They believe it was not about Russians but about Communism.
It is not so. You should refer to Hitler’s Mein Campf, banned in Russia, but sold freely in Ukraine, by the way, even they offer it as a “gift edition” bunch together with other Nazi book. Anatoliy Sharij made a video about it and screenshoted the Internet shop page with the offer. He also published a big collection of videos, exposing this phenomenal acceptance of the ideology in Ukraine.
And finally, so that everyone realizes the seriousness of the problem. Especially in order to avoid a scenario in which careless Europeans sanction a war against Russia, the ‘Dead Hand’ system was created. This automatically launches nuclear strikes on the world, after an attack on Russia.
Personally, I consider such a scenario monstrous, the whole world would perish, I would like the world to continue to exist, even without me. But Putin has a different opinion, he bluntly said, “Why a world without Russia?”
‘Dead hand’ with all its inhumanity, when seen with a sober assessment without emotion, is the last line of defense against STUPIDITY.
I mean headless politicians, such as those whom you have now planted to speak on your behalf, they probably believe that the consequences of a strike on Russia will not be more serious than Chernobyl or Fukushima, so the territory can still be cleaned and used later.
Yes, I know that the existence of the Dead Hand is debatable, but we can risk checking.
They now attack Russian part of Internet and ban Russian voices from everywhere, so I maybe the last Russian person you hear from, it may happen anytime. I really feel like I make my ‘message to the humankind’ 🙂 please stop stupid people from making desicions for the whole world’s future.
That’s quite apocalyptic, Tatyana. But I also had that sensation yesterday, that the crisis could move into a nuclear phase. Western politicians are so heedless these days, never having experienced war themselves. For them, it’s just a game they play to advance themselves in politics. Johnson is not alone in that. Combined with the real headbangers in Washington, who because they think they will not be affected, have no hesitation to play a game of nuclear war.
– “the whole world would perish”
The whole world would suffer enormously, but not perish. Look at Kyshtym or Windscale.
An all out nuclear war would probably kill about one third of the human population on Earth, most of those being in cities. People think that the radioactive fallout would scour the Earth of life, but weapons contain only kilos of nuclear fuel, whereas just one reactor contains tonnes. Since nuclear weapons were developed until the Test Ban Treaties, there were hundreds of nuclear tests, a fair fraction of the total number of warheads in existence now – over half of which, in all the world, are those of the US. So Earth has already experienced as much fallout as about a quarter of a nuclear war.
The worst threat is not the weapons themselves, but nature’s probable reaction – nuclear winter.
Ah, it’s ok then 🙂
Clark, NATO-Russia council doesn’t work for years. Lavrov said it turned into semi-formal lunch.
US withdrawn from mutual security treaties at the time of Scripal saga.
Mutual security doesn’t work for long, it means nobody inspects each other, you cant be so sure who has what.
Stoltenberg lies about ‘Nato open door policy’, lies by omitting Ukraine’s neutral status, out if any blocks.
Stoltenberg lies again saying there were no promisess about Nato expansion. He lies by omitting the word ‘written’.
> most of those being in cities
I’m not sure that’s true. The “boomers” are only good for flattening cities; but modern precision missiles can deliver warheads very accurately, making it practical to use low-yield nukes to destroy command bunkers, railway junctions and so on.
If you start flattening your enemy’s cities, you can expect him to start flattening yours. But nobody’s going to escalate to city-flattening because someone destroyed a command bunker.
Tatyana, no it is not ok, it is dreadful. NATO is an appalling organisation; it ran Gladio and apparently now runs Gladio B. It lacks democratic oversight and should be disbanded. No one in Europe or the US voted for NATO to encroach upon Russia or interfere in Ukrainian politics; we were never asked, we have no opportunity to vote for anything NATO does, and its workings are a mystery to almost everyone.
But it is important to stick to facts, or campaigners become discredited. And it is important to know how to survive.
And it’s important not to underestimate the danger of power reactors in comparison with nuclear war. There are around 440 nuclear power reactors in the world, each with nuclear fuel comparable to all the world’s warheads. Most of those reactors are on coasts and near sea level, but sea level is rising, and the 2030s will bring a decade of unusually high tides due to solar system orbital mechanics.
Humanity faces so many threats, and far from addressing them our politicians keep starting wars and making matters worse.
Hello Clark,
‘And it’s important not to underestimate the danger of power reactors in comparison with nuclear war. There are around 440 nuclear power reactors in the world, each with nuclear fuel comparable to all the world’s warheads.’
I think you may be overestimating the danger of nuclear reactors vs. weapons. A direct strike on a nuclear reactor might well release all the fission products (from burnt fuel) but I think it is unlikely to cause the unburnt fuel to fission. Sustaining of the nuclear reaction in a thermal reactor is reliant upon the presence of the moderator and the moderator would not be retained (after a strike) in the format required to sustain the reaction (let alone an expanding reaction). This contrasts with a nuclear weapon whose fuel has a critical mass (sans moderator) and thus, of course, is designed to sustain an ever (until fuel exhausted) expanding reaction.
Perhaps should add
…ever expanding reaction (until fuel exhausted or dispersed)…
Yet millions all over the world die of leukemia and multiple myeloma from the bomb test fallout as well as the nuclear accidents … never mind the purposeful release of contaminated water into our seas.
Myself at 10:50
– “the total number of warheads in existence now – over half of which, in all the world, are those of the US”
I got this wrong. Russia has the most, comparable with the US stockpile: Archived copy of the Arms Control Association “who has what” page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220227143510/https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Nuclearweaponswhohaswhat
IMcK, I didn’t mean the danger of all the fuel fissioning, nor that power reactors might undergo nuclear explosion. In current reactors these cannot happen, for the reasons you state and others.
I meant contamination, particularly via the oceans. A typical power reactor contains about one hundred tonnes of nuclear material consisting of nuclear fuel, radioactive fission products such as strontium, caesium and iodine, actinides including plutonium, and radioactive decay products of all of these – a truly horrendous cocktail. From Fukushima we know that such reactors are likely both to melt down, and to suffer hydrogen explosions, dispersing these contents into the environment.
The potential contamination from just one reactor is thus comparable with thousands of warheads, yet there are hundreds of such reactors on Earth.
Ripples, there seem to be some four to five hundred thousand deaths per year globally from the conditions you mentioned, but medical sources do not attribute them specifically to radioactive contaminants. And for leukaemia, prevalence rose steadily throughout the twentieth century, starting before the nuclear age. Prevalence does not seem to surge with nuclear disasters, nor fall following the test ban treaties.
– “Ask anyone in the West, they only say it’s Jews who were targeted by Nazis then.”
Jews, Gypsies/Roma, the disabled, people of unorthodox sexuality, people of the political left, Jehovah’s Witnesses, conscientious objectors, etc. etc. Anyone who was different or wouldn’t conform.
This is well known in the West, but being overshaddowed as Israel hijacks the narrative to protect its own apartheid against all the non-Jews in and around Israel.
According to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and other sources quoted by Wikipedia, the victims of the Holocaust also included up to 9 million Soviet non-combatants (many deliberately starved to death in the ‘Hunger Plan’) and up to 3 million ethnic Poles – all regarded by the Nazis as ‘subhuman’.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
On 15 March 1940, Heinrich Himmler stated: ‘Later, all Poles will disappear from this world. It is imperative that the great German volk consider the elimination of all Polish people as its chief task.’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation
I assume for political reasons, these genocide always seem to be excluded from any remembrance of the Holocaust in the West.
Huw, thanks. Yes, it is the victims you and Tatyana name who tend to be forgotten in the West, and yes it’s clearly political.
Israel doesn’t love ALL Jews, they have to be the right kind of Jews.
Israel is a right wing, apartheid state. The fact that the majority of the residents identify as Jewish is purely coincidental.
Substitute the words Israel and Jew with 1930s Germany and German, resp. to see the issue.
@Henry Smith, zionists aren’t Jews, there is nothing Jewish about the apartheid tyranny in Palestine, it’s the most Judenrein place on earth.
Squeeth.
I understand what you are saying but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of zionists ARE Jews. Apparently a recent survey identified that 95% of Israelis support the actions of their government.
However, it is also true that not all Jews are zionists and not all Jews are Israelis.
You miss the point, being a zionist is incompatible with Judaism. Compare the religion with the ideology, they are opposites.
Simple answer is this was/is a humanitarian mission to recue the people of the Donbas, I call these civilians living in a ‘grey area’ the ‘forgotten tribes’ of women, children and seniors subjected to eight years of misery from Ukraine bombs and missiles while young men tried to protect their families. Vladimir Putin should have stopped this onslaight tears ago.
Invasion was not the right solution to the Donbas problem, which I agree needed dealing with. Russian forces in Donbas only might have been better.
Laguerre
Assisting in Dombas area would have bogged down Russia permanently , as has bee the case for the last 8 years. It would have been a very stupid option. NATO continually upping the antis in return for the same Western Panamania, long word for knickers getting twisted.
We shouldn’t forget that the international rules order was written by the West in exceptionalist terms similar to BoJo’s lockdown rules on boozy parties. We can do anything we like and will do frequently, while you lot will suffer. We probably have obtained some plasma antibodies which give us the confidence that we and our wealthy supporters are not at risk from covid. But we are definitely not going to tell you
.
That warm sensation near your ear is a loaded gun ready to blow out your brains. Enjoy.
“That warm sensation near your ear is a loaded gun ready to blow out your brains. Enjoy.”
Aren’t we nice? This invasion solution is also likely to bog down Russia permanently. More than just supporting independent Donbas.
Have to agree with you, laguerre. I cannot see the strategic advantage of this invasion. Was expecting a limited operation to embarrass the West and then a withdrawal (with minor annexations to have something to show for it).
What’s actually happened, though, is that Putin has committed the ultimate crime of aggression, making him no better than Bush or Blair, unless you want to measure things in terms of overall casualties.
well a couple million in Vietnam, several hundred thousand in Iraq, vs what here? a thousand? i havent seen any reliable figures.
Invasion may have been the only way to deal with the NATO/US nukes in Ukraine pointed toward Russia problem.
How easy it is to ‘go with the flow’ and succumb to the mass media subliminal and overt psalm that the recue of the Donbas was an ‘invasion’ when in fact it is an attempt to prevent further suffering.
That weakness should in reality be strengthened by the exposure of totaliarism, the dictatorship of the EU/US/UK that has been bared by the mechanisms of sanction, the coercive, punitive measures that identify control, domination and jurisdiction such as property and assets annexation, such as censorship of balanced views from Russian media outlets and even the unwarranted and wrong sentencing of our host here on a speculative premise. Bravo Putin! I say, for lighting up tyranny and corruption.
@laguerre Do you think that the US would refrain from pumping billions of dollars and weapons to the nazis if the Russians had only liberated Donbass from them? It would be illogical to assume so yet forcing a choice on the US puppet regime to do a deal or be martyrs to US imperialism might lead to a durable settlement.
Tried to solve it by agreed measures, by law, UN, Minsk protocol. Nothing of that worked.
What makes me angry is what’s going on in my sphere. Ukrainian girls everywhere on Facebook promote their shops on Etsy, asking to support their businesses. All about money, using opportunity to earn some extra dollars, hyping.
I haven’t seen these Ukrainian girls picketing Kiev, demanding to stop shelling Donbass.
Instead, I saw Ukrainian girl Yana Turner, living in Britain, establishing a charity Dobra Mova and sending money to so-called anti-terror operation on Donbass, launched by Poroshenko.
I suppose that explains why Kiev is encircled?
I know nothing more than you of Putin’s intentions. He said “de-militarisation and de-nazification”. I guess these goals may involve Ukrainian government, who give orders to their military, and who write discriminative racist laws.
Maybe, maybe not? Wa you say Jimmeh?
It’s not encircled as of today
Mark Golding,
“tears ago”?
Maybe ‘years ago with tears throuhout’
A report in the Irish Times and other sites stating Africans trying to flee Ukraine complain of being blocked and of racist treatment.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/africans-trying-to-flee-ukraine-complain-of-being-blocked-and-of-racist-treatment-1.4813571
“My boyfriend is stuck in Ukraine and his phone is not reachable for the past two days. The last time we spoke he said he’s waiting for the train from Lviv to Poland, He said they didn’t allow them to board the train. Only white people [could] and his phone had low battery so he had to go offline.”
A video posted on twitter at Polish-Ukranian border showing border guards aiming guns at the students:
https://twitter.com/nzekiev
also reports at MoA of racist treatment of Indian students who want to,leavu Uhraine, and Indian Union mission to oversee safe evacualtion
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/02/disarming-ukraine-day-4.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef0278806dec58200d#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef0278806dec58200d
more, from the Hindu Newspaper:
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/with-mobiles-dead-students-held-up-in-ukraine-cant-even-send-sos/article65093024.ece
There is too much propaganda. Yesterday evening I watched the RT channel on my TV and they were alleging all kinds of ridiculous things – if they were to be believed then the entire Ukraine government and senior business leaders are not only corrupt but wholly owned by an overseas superpower complicit in the bribery! It’s easy to see how a naive observer could form the opinion that, just possibly, the Russians were tired of having such a mess on their doorstep and had decided to go in and clean it up.
Fortunately I am receiving therapy for my weakness towards such thoughtcrimes. Watching RT is becoming increasingly difficult these days thanks to the compassionate efforts of my own and other governments’ media regulators.
RT is certainly no better than the Western media; both only tell the truth when it suits their agenda.
This is why it’s important to have both sides’ “truth”, then compare it side by side, and hopefully synthesise 20% or so of authentic truth.
Which is why we have to ban it!
Do you deny that the Maidan was funded by Victoria Nuland, Geoffrey Pyatt within the US Embassy in Kiev?
Do you deny that they chose Arseniy Yatsenyuk as the next leader before Poroshenko and Zelensky?
Do you deny that the Donbass held referenda in 2014 to oppose the Maidan government and that the outcome was a desire for independence?
Do you deny that since 2014, over 10,000 people have been killed in a Civil War in the Donbass?
Do you deny that the Ukrainian Government is increasingly trying to eliminate the Russian language from Ukraine, despite a large minority of the country speaking Russian as their first language?
Do you deny that Ukraine had allowed the US to fund over a dozen bioweapons laboratories to carry out work legislated as illegal within the USA?
Do you deny that Zelensky demanded nuclear weapons for Ukraine at the Munich Security Conference less than 1 month ago??
Just want to establish what you are not prepared to accept as historical fact, you know…..
Yes these things should be openly discussed instead of msm nareative and bbc war porn prose which have no facts if any kind and seem to be coming from elite in society whonhave vested interests in arms industry.
Jim Rogers sees this war as a Washington proxy war, he is particularly scathing about Victoria Newland’s role in this sad affair, well worth the time, especially if you’re interested in the financial repercussions of US policy.
Jim Rogers – Ukraine Russia Fears Moving Markets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyM96kZSlYQ
Every time I try to get to this site, I get some kind of “potentially unwanted content” warning. I think it’s my browser. It also helpfully wants me to download some kind of tool to make my internet experience “safer”. jesus.
Bizarre, isn’t it.
They’d probably lazily say it’s a hive of pro-Russia activity, but that simply isn’t true.
Virtually everyone here, including myself, are condemning this invasion as a massive global-scale and financial misstep, it’s catastrophic for Russia, on a par with the US’s Vietnam misadventure; nearly 60,000 US troops died in that mess and this could prove to be equally costly for Russia. Aside from the moral outrage of launching a ‘war of choice’, Russia simply doesn’t have the international friends/allies to carry this through nor the international financial clout. Blair and Bush got away with invading/occupying Iraq precisely because they did have those reserves to draw on. We condemned those interventions and their bogus justifications; in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, all should condemn this too.
Many misrepresent the views expressed here. Preferring multipolarity without any single entity or group (NATO) having global hegemony – and with it the lone right to throw its military weight around, isn’t being pro-Russia or China. Desiring a multi-polar world is in no way an endorsement of the Russian and Chinese current leaderships or govts or their ideologies; ideally human rights and freedoms would be truly inalienable & universal. Although this point would probably go right over the heads of 90% of the population including, sadly, many in power, who see unquestioning worship the US foreign policy elite as their religion – the nearest thing to salvation. Reducing everything to Dubya’s binary “you are either with us, or against us?’ test is easier than shades of grey or nuance, I guess.
I wonder if this isn’t a British intel solution, I think Craig irritated them mightily, more than a part of the general trend to shut down antiwar propaganda.
@Goose “nearly 60,000 US troops died in that mess” really? Try 68,000, while they were killing 3 million Vietnamese. This wasn’t a mess, it was a crime against humanity.
“Reducing everything to Dubya’s binary “you are either with us, or against us?’ test is easier than shades of grey or nuance, I guess.”
Dualism is hardwired into the Graeco-Judaeo-Christian philosophy that we all share in the West. We like to think dualistically, them and us, black and white, East and West, guilty or not guilty. No-one has to think very hard, unlike if you are trying to construct a spectrum of states. It’s much easier to sort things into two boxes than it is into six.
Bayard, you’ve just expressed in a couple of phrases what I felt. This dualism amazes me, I blamed it on religion. Here in Russia we have long atheistic history and that might influence many people to jump out of dualism.
Takes ages to connect and load, so probably something afoot.
Given that the ‘West’ that trusts its citizens is working hard to shut down alternate sources that differ from the bullshit machine of the BBC and others, its hardly surprising.
“As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I’ve got a little list — I’ve got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!”
As that famous ditty always includes topical ‘Offenders’ its a sobering thought that whilst none of us are liable to end up missing, there does seem to be a great interest on the part of HMG with regard to this blog. One is forced to wonder if participation here does mark one out as a society offender 🙂
I would say so just check if your technology
This is a genuine question. What advice should a diplomat give? Should Russia continue to make diplomatic representations for another quarter century that NATO poses an existential threat which Russia reserves the right to counter with force? Since 1999 and the expansion of NATO and illegal bombing of Serbia, Russia has used diplomatic means to protest the disregard for its security. It has offered diplomatic solutions in the form of mutual security agreements protecting everyone in Europe. Result? The US and NATO are now de facto integrating Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Russia has said this must not happen and it will take military action. It warned NATO of military action. It warned Ukraine it would cease to exist in its current form. Still it offered a diplomatic solution. Still it was ignored. Still NATO poured weaponry into Ukraine and trained the Ukrainian military. Is Russia to continue making diplomatic representations while its security is undermined? What happens when the nuclear-potential missiles are moved from Poland and Romania to Ukraine, 5 minutes from Moscow? Does it make a speech in the UN? Please could Mr. Murray say what his advice as a diplomat would be. I ask as an ignorant layman.
I think you should also ask Goose to answer these questions. He seems to think that this is equivalent to Iraq and Syria, it’s nothing of the sort. It’s equivalent to England going in and doing over Scotland, who are right on our borders. Or the USA ‘sorting out Quebec’ for some outrage or other.
Libya, Iraq, Vietnam et al were all wars of aggression thousands of miles away against victims representing zero threat to the security of either the UK or the USA.
Rhys.
Maybe it’s more equivalent to England going in and sorting out Wales ? There again, remember when the Welsh language was virtually banned – the English Donbass Region. Then there were the clearances …
Over six hours since this post and we have not even seen any tumbleweed.
You can always tell when a pertinent awkward question has been asked by the pregnant silence which follows. And it seems on this occasion we are talking about the gestation period of an elephant rather than a human.
They don’t like it up ’em Mr Mainwairing!
What I haven’t heard yet in all this war hysteria is the good news “that it will all be over by Christmas”
Yesterday late in the evening I saw one important news headline, Biden to call Xi. It appeared after the ‘nukes alerted news’. I suppose it might be connected.
Please, if you on your side of the fence have any information about the call, let me know.
Maybe the call went like: “Hello President Xi. Joe here. We need a huge favour, please can you do something about Russia? We are out of options. Oh and by the way don’t get any ideas about Taiwan”
I haven’t seen Biden standing by Xi at the Olympics opening ceremony 🙂 I recall western countries were told to ignore, there was a nice polite comment from China on this.
Hello Joe, your order is important to us … Would you like noodles with that ?
For every day the screw are just tighetend against Russia,
From diverse regions like Mexico, to US, to Europe, to Kazakstan, to China, Japan, Australia, Turkey and so on there have been sanctions and isolation measures.
How do Russia suppose get out of this? Now they seems to have problem with the war itself, they get nowhere. Catastrophic.
It is pretty obvious that these sanctions, isolation will be kept so long Putin is president.
This is already Russia’s Vietnam in terms of consequences.
No wonder Russia’s foreign intelligence chief was shaking and hesitant in his replies at that extraordinary televised Kremlin gathering. Putin has behaved like some omnipotent emperor, drunk on his own power.
Did Putin not foresee all this or was he simply not told?
Reported Germany is building new storage facilities for LNG, I don’t see how Russia walks this back even with new leadership. And even China is sounding deeply concerned. China isn’t going to join Russia in a suicide pact. Tatyana talks about the US demanding talks with Xi, this isn’t the fear of nukes, it’s to drive a deeper wedge between China and what they see as an unhinged Kremlin.
Russia’s (USSR’s) Vietnam was Afghanistan. I suspect that they learned from that.
I’d suspect that once they achieve their objectives they will withdraw. What will the west do then ?
The very act of invasion has made all their objectives impossible to obtain.
So what, Russia doesn’t need German gas money.
I suspect, as happens so often, the West has ended up believing their own propaganda, that the Russian economy is on its uppers and will collapse once Russia is cut off from foreign trade with sanctions. People tend to believe what they need to believe, the greater the need, the greater the tendency.
Refer to the late Clive Ponting’s book 1940 Myth and Reality.
You’ll find the same plot line being pushed in 1939.
It might suggest that HMG’s civil service do indeed operate in a fashion portrayed in the Yes Minister series. A set of scripts that only need to have the characters and locations changed 🙂
Russia is fighting a war and has had much of its foreign reserves frozen. They need German money at least as badly as the Germans need their gas
If you think that Germany can replace Russian gas before next winter you need to do some sums. You can’t build facilities like that in 6 months. Not to mention that the cost of LNG will be triple what they were paying Russia for gas on long-term stable contracts.
You need to realise the economic suicide Europe has just declared.
This isn’t some grand alliance to beat Russia, its a mass suicide pact.
German industry will go bankrupt because of this, they can’t not.
Do you think the USA cares??
Of course not.
So what, Russia’s future is with China.
Great summary, @Tatyana.
Many people, including Craig say that invasion was not the solution. Perhaps can these people tell us what exactly could have done Russia to make sure NATO does not come in Ukraine (which they did anyway in the last few years with training, armament and anti-Russian propaganda) for good? Russia tried and tried for many years to reason with the idiotic NATO and the senile US, to no avail.
Craig, please, explain to us what could have been done differently? You disagree with Putin’s move. I am disappointed as well that it happened, but to be honest, I don’t see any other option, given the stubbornness of the Ukrainian government, the enormous military support for this illegal regime received form the west, the fanaticism of many of the Ukrainian authorities and part of the army, and the permanent bashing of Russia on any possible occasion and in any possible way.
Maybe Russia should simply relocate their country, to please the US , the EU and the innocent Ukraine???? Is this a good option???
Till now, Russia has shown enormous restraint, no-one can deny this. But I think USA, NATO, its idiotic allies and the EU as a whole have pushed Russia into a corner from which there is no option to escape, except what is happening now. It their fault 100% for creating this crisis over the last 8 years and cornering Russia in such a way that there was no exit. Maybe this was their game all the way along, although I doubt their intellectual ability to devise such a plan…
Why is anyone surprised that Russia has acted, after many years of futile diplomatic efforts? Why do people think that Putin is a criminal? Even Craig was totally unfair with statements like ‘macho is his thing’ and with his surprise that Russia did not inflict that massive damage as expected from its leader (who must be a psychopath if his intentions are to kill as many civilians as possible)??? How can Craig think like this? Maybe he knows something we don’t…
There is not much damage in Ukraine because military installations are the target in entire Ukraine and not civilians or entire cities. This has nothing to do with the soldiers not wanting to kill civilians. I am sure they don’t want this and I am sure many acts of candor happened between the Russian soldiers and Ukrainian people, but that was also the direction given to the army by the generals and by their President. I don’t doubt one second that no-one in Russia wants to massacre civilians in Ukraine or destroy their cities! They want to destroy as much as possible of their military installations! Who can blame them???? Given the billions in military help from US and NATO, how can anyone stand still and allow this to happen on their doorstep? If this armament and the NATO membership of Ukraine are not a threat, then what is??? Please, Craig, tell us what you think about this.
Also, everyone talks about the illegality of Crimea annexation by Russia. People forget that there was a referendum there with an overwhelming support for joining Russia. Majority of Russians despised the newly instated government after the US coup d’etat in Ukraine (and not only in Crimea, in many other parts, like the Eastern part or in Odessa and other Russian areas), so no wonder people wanted to go back to Russia, their mother country. Good or bad, the outcome is what those people wanted! Why isn’t this respected by the west??? They gladly accepted Kosovo’s “independence” and destroyed Yugoslavia for that?
Crimea is majority Russian anyway, the land was never Ukrainian. It was Russian, obtained by Russia as a result of the the war with the Turks (Ottomans, then) in the 1700’s. Crimea was administratively included in Ukraine in the 1950’s by Khrushev, but that has no meaning, as admin modifications of internal region borders had more to do with ease of administration rather than any historical facts or people nationality. After the dissolution of the USSR, Ukraine inherited the Soviet Era borders, but after the coup d’etat and the increasingly aggressive stance of the new but illegal government, many Russians in Ukraine became fed up of being part of Ukraine. In fact Crimea wanted to become independent long before the referendum, so no wonder they took the opportunity when it appeared.
Should we condemn these Russian people in Crimea and other parts of Ukraine because their choice is different from what the mighty west wants for them? Should we condemn them because they want to join Russia instead of being constant subject to oppression and discrimination by the current government from Kiev?
Did anyone on this forum go to Crimea and Russia recently and asked people on the streets if they like being part of Russia or they want to go back to Ukraine? Some of the major issues Crimea had after returning to Russia was lack of access to good quality water due to the Ukrainian government building a dam that blocked the main river flowing into Crimea. This was a deliberate and criminal act, destined to hurt the population of Crimea to teach them a lesson that they voted to leave Ukraine.
Anyway, I like Craig’s articles most of the times, but this time, I disagree with him and really wonder what he can tell us regarding what could have been done by Russia instead of using some very moderate military force?
Please Craig (and all the others on this forum who say that this is not a solution), explain what should Russia have done to convince NATO to not expand to the East and not direct their rockets from their vassals, Romania and Poland? Do you think anything peaceful would have worked??? And how long would that have taken? Probably long after Ukraine would have become a full NATO member…
Russia tried many options but no-one listened. They said many times that NATO should stop, they tried and tried and tried!!! WHAT ELSE COULD THEY HAVE DONE INSTEAD OF using the last possible card they still hold, TO SET THINGS STRAIGHT MILITARILY? As I said, as much as I dislike this option, I believe that nothing else would have worked… Even this may not work, who knows? But without this the outcome would have been Ukraine in NATO in a few years and Russia cornered even worse than now, with nuclear weapons in Ukraine a few hundred kms from Moscow.
Thank you
Thanks, Zara.
I wish Mr. Murray never answers your question, or it will bring him to prison again.
Better him focus on self-ID problems, proposed by Anna in the next comment.
There are already nukes pointing at Moscow. Invading a European neighbour is not going to persuade NATO or the US to bin any of those nukes. More likely there are soon going to be far more pointing at Moscow. Then what will have been achieved in terms of security?
but they are not on Russia’s border. there are already nukes pointed at the U.S. but the U.S. freaked out when those nukes were placed in Cuba.
You can be certain the number is going to be multiplied now, wait and see…
but not from Ukraine. this is all counterforce crap, I think they call it escalation dominance now. the U.S. and NATO are free to come up with any number of nuclear weapons located in the US or Brussels, but not Ukraine. and China looks like it is backing Russia, it knows it is also a target.
The difference is the flight time. Nuclear weapons launched from Ukraine have a much shorter flight time than weapons based in, say, the UK.
That gives Russia about four minutes to detect and react.
This is why the Pershing-2 caused the Soviets such concern, and why the United States threatened WWIII over MRBMs based in Cuba.
Not all nukes are the same. There was a reason for the INF treaty that banned intermediate range missiles in Europe (Pershings and SS-20s). They have a flight time of maybe 5 minutes to their targets. Which means your opponent also has just 5 minutes to decide if it’s a real attack or a false alarm. This situation just multiplies the probability of making a giant mistake. Both sides will be on hair trigger alert.
The US dismantling the arms control regime by withdrawing from the ABM and INF treaties was a big mistake.
I just don’t understand why it is unfathomable for certain Western circles to have a treaty between Russia and NATO about not putting nuclear missiles into each other’s geographical backyards.
I don’t see any thought given in the current war hysteria to what happens the day after tomorrow. Let’s assume for argument’s sake there is a tomorrow. Even if Russia loses this conventional war, she will not disarm and will stay a nuclear power on par with the US. What will the NATO hawks do? Start the whole cycle again by arming Ukraine and still refusing to rule out missile deployment? That’s back to square one and another war. Do we want an Israel in Europe constantly attacking its neighbors?
In that sense, Russia cannot lose this confrontation. There has to be an acknowledgment of Russia’s fears of nuclear annihilation if we want to survive.
The thing is this invasion is not a solution to anything. It’s created more problems than it’s solved and caused NATO members to become more entrenched. Even Germany has announced a significant increase in defence spending and we could see Russian forces pinned down for years by partisan warfare. Sorry but Vlad has made a catastrophic mistake here, one that will hopefully lead to his downfall.
Pears, you revolve in tactical tasks, when you need to grow up to strategy level. Friendly advice ?
thanks, I have an immense amount of respect for Craig Murray, but not so much for his position here.
Surely you can see Craig has weighed it somewhat more carefully and judiciously than Tatyana, Zara and the rest?
I dunno, I don’t always have all the answers myself.
At least Mr. Murray tried to be fair and objective, even if his conclusions don’t always jive with my own.
Really? Suggesting that Putin was directly running the war and had ordered massive destruction but that the Russian generals were refusing to carry out his orders? That sounds like spy-novel fantasy to me. What was Shoigu supposed to have been doing in this scenario?
Easy for me, just worship Mr.Murray as my hero and trust he says what he says. He stands for the freedom of speech. Unlike his government.
Bit harsh sweetie, innit?
Russians ain’t poor anymore. I’ve seen thousands enjoying all inclusive packages and set up mini Marbella’s from Mauritius to Thailand over the last 15 years. Including of course in London and across the Med.
They really didn’t seem too upset at their increase in disposable income and were generally very y. Did hell for the price of fresh fruit on the beach stalls! There were some who didn’t quite get the ethos of beach bumming and we had to put up signs on some bars suggesting they were not the kind of hippies that belonged there ?
But they were soon overtaken by the bludgeoning Chinese middle classes taking their vacations. While tourism industries, airlines and international resorts are falling over themselves to get their prolific spending power.
Ukrainians though – I know a few hard workers who snuck in some years ago and talked with all such eastern Europeans in Russian and very basic english they were all learning. They are poorer than the Poles and Belorussians and Poles – never mind the Russians.
These Russian youth you rely on are no longer travelling to get some reasonable paid work. Most appear to be doing very well with opportunities at entrepreneurship in their own lands.
Ukrainians ought to wonder how that has come to be?
While we are asking questions one other which occurs is would anyone want these people in charge of nuclear weapons.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
Burnt alive in Odessa (documentary) 27 Dec 2021 – The Saker (with embedded YouTube video, 26m 31s)
In regards the questions already asked several thoughts come to mind.
The first of which is whether or not anyone here, including Craig, thinks the populace which makes up Russian society have a valid fear of an existential threat?
The two possible answers raise further questions.
A no answer requires a selective application of supposed principles. Limiting consideration to the last half century or so every threat posed by the US/West/NATO to peoples in places such as Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia, Indonesia and so on has resulted in a negative existential outcome for those targeted countries and millions of people in them. What makes this any different?
A yes answer raises the question posed here by Dmitry Orlov.
https://thesaker.is/the-situation-in-the-ukraine-predictions-vs-reality/
” From a moral perspective, the fact that the entire international community idly stood by and ineffectually discussed politics for eight years during which the civilian population of Donetsk and Lugansk was continuously shelled by the Ukrainian “anti-terrorist operation” is utterly shameful.
People who are now speaking out against Russia’s military action in the Ukraine need to answer a simple question: Where have you been for the last eight years while the carnage in Donetsk and Lugansk was going on, while people were being burned alive in Odessa, while the Ukrainian government organized terrorist operations on Russian territory and while the entire Ukrainian population has been forced to kowtow to Americans and to speak Ukrainian, most often against its will? If your answer is “I didn’t know” then you have forfeited your right to an informed opinion on what’s happening there now. Please keep that in mind and act accordingly.”
A shorter way of putting that would be “what exactly are a people supposed to do in the face of such blatant intransigence towards their right to exist?”
Again, the other question which occurs is whether or not there is acceptance of the fact that even as far back as the Munich Security Conference of 2008 the Russians have attempting to negotiate diplomatically and sensibly.
In the case of this reality not being accepted there would appear little point in any further effort of engagement with anyone rejecting that reality in favor of simplifying everything down to whatever fantasy exists in their own head.
In the case of acceptance the same question arises as previous. ‘What are they supposed to do?
One answer does spring to mind.
Which is to sit and do nothing. Wait to be slaughtered, plundered, exterminated and bombed back to the stone age like other places already have been so that comfortable liberals can compete with each other about how unacceptable they find the situation to be. Like they did with Iraq, and Libya.
No doubt if Iraq, Libya or other similar examples had had the ability at the time to prevent and preempt what happened to them there would be a similar outpouring of collective condemnation from the same sources. Angry at being deprived of the ability to publicly demonstrate how they felt about the situation whilst drinking their latte’s.
Invasion was a solution in 2014. It is not now.
My previous comment was deleted, not sure why. Craig, this would be a very good time for you to support women’s rights as opposed to siding with the lobbying by “self-ID”, trans activists who do not represent anything but their own anti-human interests. Their self-ID means the negation of women as a class of people, with endless negative material effects. There is a little side discussion going on about what Western values really mean. There is mockery of the political position that pronouns are bringing about the demise of the western values and thereby adding fuel to Putin’s fire. However, it is the case that pronouns are indeed bringing about bankruptcy of western values, because of the way such pronouns are being imposed as morally right, such imposition being backed up by TPTB and all kinds of moves against freedom of speech including bullying and harassment, rape threats etc. against others (mainly women) who assert otherwise.
Apologies, my other comment was not deleted. I see it now.
Tried to ControlF (find) the undeleted comment but your name only appears three times on this page – and one of those is in a Tatyana comment.
—
[ Mod: That’s hardly a rigorous methodology. There are 2 comments from Anna on the previous page. ]
Thanks. ;o)
Anna
The West is constantly finding new ways to divide society and the world. All the Responsibility for this current violence is on the shoulders of the Western divide and rule brigade. We have to remember that our enemy is the divide and rule scum, not the people with whom we are forced to disagree.
Surely a comment for a different post?
Putin had years to ‘deal’ with Ukraine but didn’t, so what made him choose this particular moment in time to launch an offensive? It’s not like he just woke up one morning and decided to do it on a whim.
The Western media has been warmongering for months to the extent that they felt confident to predict the exact date that Russia would invade but it still seemed to take them by surprise when it actually did invade.
And that’s how I think the war will end. A decision will be made to just suddenly pull the troops out which will again take the Western media and everyone else by surprise.
Nato summit in March, where they most probably take Ukraine as ally.
Please don’t bring the argument that it’s impossible because of Nato’s inner policy. Every rule may be thrown away easily and an exception made as the matter of urgency. US says they are an exceptional nation, perhaps they mean exactly this 🙂
NATO rules preclude the joining of states that are currently in a conflict situation.
Not to say that the rules could not change, but would our western politico’s, being driven forward by the ‘Trustifarian’ public reaction they have provoked be so stupid ?
Probably they would. Oh Dear 🙁
CasualObserver
Want to be scared more? The rule about countries in a conflict is not written down. It’s just agreed. So, easily ‘disagreed’.
So? You really think that NATO would follow its own rules, if the US was bound and determined to have it do otherwise?
It’s been obvious for decades that the West only sends its troops against badly trained and ill equipped third-world armies. As soon as there was any risk of fighting Russians, the UK pulled its military personnel out of Ukraine. It’s all a confidence trick on both sides. The belief that if the Russians attacked, say, Estonia, the USA – the only NATO member that really counts – would put its forces and even its cities at risk in response. So NATO can’t take on a new member who’s already under attack because what would they do about it? From the Russian perspective, at least this military adventure strengthens any future threatening and the entirely predictable Western sanctions must have been taken into account before it was launched. All the same it looks ill-advised to say the least and I wonder whether it’s happened because internal Russian office politics caused a bluff to go out of control.
Putin had years to ‘deal’ with Ukraine but didn’t, so what made him choose this particular moment in time to launch an offensive?
I have seen it suggested that with the new weapons systems coming on line and a lot of money stashed away he and his advisors felt that Russia had a 1- or 2-year window of opportunity when they were stronger than NATO that they might not see again. Sounds reasonable to me.
Jrkrideau
It must be time for the capitalist cycle of boom.and bust to wash away all the sandcastles soon. More likely I think that the West wants a war in the small window of opportunity that the dollar is still relevant enough for its sanctions to work.
Jesus sodding wept!
They were negotiating in good faith with the West, via the Minsk Accords. Presumably they should have gone in on day one of the 2014 coup? Yes? No? Phone a friend?
I did not see this coming, Ukraine bring up Crimea in talks.
Zelensky’s Office Says Kiev Demands Withdrawal Of All Russian Troops at Talks, Including From Crimea and Donbass, Reports Say
https://sputniknews.com/20220227/live-updates-talks-between-russian–ukraine-wont-start-anytime-soon-source-says-1093429625.html
Crimea is Russian. Just wasting breath asking for it back.
next, a demand that all Russian troops withdraw from Russia.
Haha, pretzelattack – withdrawal of Russian troops from Russian territoy is EXACTLY what US/Nato were demanding a few days ago!
Liz Truss also stated the UK government doesn’t recognise Russian authority over two Russian regions. We are ruled by incomptents drunk on their own power and lies.
Still look on the bright side: NATO has got the Cold War back to justify its existence and to milk loot from the taxpayer. The UK’s military budget was increased by 11% a while back. Stuff the NHS nurse heroes – their 1% payrise will break the NHS!
A couple of years ago I read a report that U.S, war planners think they can win a first-strike war against Russia. Crazy as it sounds, could this be the plan.
They have placed nuke-ready first strike Aegis Ashore system in Poland and Romania. More are planned for Ukraine. The ones in Ukraine would be a 5 minute flight time from Moscow. Is it surprising that Russia has started readiness checks on its nuclear systems?
Russia did, indeed, have an alternative to invasion.
And it pursued it vigorously for months.
That was its diplomatic campaign to come to an agreement – in writing – with the USA regarding outstanding security issues.
The United States not only refused to take Russia’s demands seriously but instructed its creatures – the NATO/EU bureaucracy – to heap scorn on Russia and to trivialise its concerns that missiles would be sited on its borders and aimed towards Moscow, a few minutes’ flight time from their targets.
Regime change – by bribery, propaganda, terrorist gangs, death squads and economic warfare – has been openly practised by the United States and its fan club for decades. It is no more allowed under the UN’s Charter than military invasion. It is clearly interference in the affairs of sovereign nations. And yet it is pursued not only with impunity but quite openly. “We spent $5 billion Nuland boasted in 2014, the week before snipers from Georgia, organised by the CIA, murdered dozens of people in order to provide the US an excuse for not abiding by the agreement freshly made with Yanukovych.”
Faced with artillery barrages of Donbas civilians and mass flight into Russia by refugees, it had no alternative but to invade Ukraine to neutralise the terrorists employed by the US to kill Russians.
Complicating this story is the fact that nobody and no institution appears to be in control of the United States whose President – a moral idiot throughout a long and undistinguished career – is surrounded by political appointees concerned only with improving their finances and solidifying their careers. With no initiatives from the US government we are left with Goebbels’ cackling ghost in the form of the media, howling for war, revenge, and an end to all discussion.
Belgium in 1914 was nothing in comparison.
I better say it’s Nato who had an alternative to the beginning of what has began with invasion of Ukraine.
Thank you all for the most thought-provoking discussion! Looks like I came to understanding of what’s going on, and also at least 2 scenarios of possible outcome where we don’t die. I also believe that Putin is more clever and much more informed than me, so I finally feel a little relaxed.
Hope I sleep tonight without ‘help’ 🙂
Its just possible that Vlady is not the new Stalin, but the new Peter the Great ?
When the likes of David Starkey mentions the names of Churchill, Palmerston, and Bismarck as comparisons to Putin, and in reference to using state power, it may be the case that what is going on is far more complex than just attaching a Stalin or Hitler moustache to the Russian President.
Putin is 70 now, he’s not going to live forever, and he is probably the last chance Russia has to re establish itself as a countervailing force to the Pax Americana.
Anyone remember when in 2017, then defence secretary, Michael Fallon, stated: ‘We have made it very clear that you can’t rule out the use of nuclear weapons as a first strike’. The Russian defence minister then reminded him that, because of the UK’s small land mass, a retaliatory strike would erase it from the face of the earth.
I have felt from 2014 that Westminster would enjoy provoking Russia to strike Scotland…just the people of course not the oil and gas rigs.
This from Scholz speech is nothing but sheer propaganda, Russia is, as we all know, defending not just its borders but stopping the genocide and pogroms in Eastern Ukraine, now the independent republics of Lugansk and Donetsk. The Ukrainians are fighting not for freedom or democracy they gave that up in 2014 when the USA took control of the country via Poroshenko and later Zelensky.
I share no values with the Nazi element in Ukraine nor the countless street names and monuments dedicated to Nazi sympathisers of the last century.
Why has the majority of Europe sided with a country that promotes Nazism, a country that along with the USA voted against a UN resolution to strike Nazism, in all its forms around the world, down recently.
Why has there been no emergency UN meeting (like there was last night on Russia) for the last eight years on the Ukrainian Nazi battalions continued genocide of Eastern Ukrainian people.
I can only suggest that EU interests in Ukraine and Nato interests in Ukraine have led to them turning a blind eye to pogroms and genocide in Eastern Ukraine, in other words the people of Donbas don’t matter.
“We have already provided significant support in recent weeks, months and years.
But with the attack on Ukraine, we have entered a new era.
In Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odesa and Mariupol, people are not just defending their homeland.
They are fighting for freedom and their democracy.
For values that we share with them.
As democrats, as Europeans, we stand by their side – on the right side of history!”
Whatever could be said of the extended period of Merkel in charge, she will rate with Adenauer, and Kohl, as one of the giants of 20th century German politics.
With her departure, Germany will endure a period of some years where the political leadership is subpar. Scholz being a prime example of just how sub-par things can get.
Add in Ursula haranguing from her EU pulpit, and things could get out of control rather quickly ?
I totally agree about Angela Merkel. She is the only politician for whom I have respect. She was the one who told Obama not to give weapons to the Ukrainians.
According to Sputnik (I am having a bit of trouble getting into RT) Putin has talked to Macron in the last hour – repeating his concerns about Russia’s security and demilitarizing and denazifying Ukraine. Also repeated that civilians and civilian structures are not being targeted. I don’t know how you verify the civilian aspect – (apart from believing him).. I can’t see what good attacking civilians would do Russia. They seem to be different to the Americans – I haven’t forgotten Chechnya – Petraeus said to the BBC that Putin was doing this all wrong. The Americans would have sent in bombers and bombed the smithereens out of Ukraine and had them suing for peace in a few hours which is true. None of the MSM vilifies them for that! Hope this all end soon. It makes one very aware how fragile civilization is. Remember hearing stories of how people behaved at the beginning of WW1 – this is so similar – just total emotion and stupidity. Thankfully, there is this blog. Thanks Craig.
There is a simple way to verify the claim that civilian infrastructure and civilians are not being targeted by the Russian military as part of what is going on.
Turn on your TV.
If you see the entire schedule across all channels has been replaced with 24 hour coverage showing the opposite you’ll know this is a lie.
If nothing in the schedules have changed its a definite confirmation this claim is sound.
Scholz identified “genocide” as a ridiculous word to describe events in Donbass. He could not be simply unaware of what’s going on in Ukraine, because Germany is one of the consultant parties in the Normandy negotiations on the Minsk agreement. There may be 3 explanations of his stance. The 1st is that he’s a fresh person, new chancellor, and had no time to educate himself on the case. The 2nd is that he was briefed on the case in the same manner as Liz Truss on Ukrainian regions. The 3rd is quite evil that he is up to his nose inside the plan, and I’m afraid his talks with Putin reveal more ‘pro-s’ this version. If I ever find out he was into Navalny’s fruitful trip to Berlin, I wouldn’t be surprised. Navalny himself has a pretty nazi views, so that even Amnesty International refused to name him the prisoner of conscience.
To be fair to Scholz, I think in Germany the notion of less than 100,000 dead being a genocide is alien when compared to the main genocide they associate with.
At what number of dead does mass murder become genocide?
I don’t have an answer to that Tatyana, but the expression the West used during the Balkans War in the 1990s was ‘ethnic cleansing’.
I certainly think you can apply that term to the Donbass….
RoS
“Right” being the important word.
Russians have decided that the west regards them as “snow n*ggers”
In the west, it is totally acceptable to be blatantly racist about Russia, reagerding them as ggulty until proven innocent of any and all claims made against them. It does provide a very useful release of anger/frustration away from the western leaders (partygate aka Johnson must go – what dat?)
https://thesaker.is/donbass-war-quick-update/
The Russian army has been ordered to destroy Ukrainian communication towers, Unian reported, citing a source in the Security Service of Ukraine.
Via a Polish source. Telecommunication, TV and Radio infrastructure being destroyed in Ukraine.
https://www.tvp.info/58773919/rosjanie-otrzymali-rozkazy-zniszczyc-wieze-komunikacyjne-na-ukrainie-sluzby-specjalne-ujawniaja
Translation from the Polish National News link above:
“The agency reports that such orders were given to sabotage and sabotage groups. The purpose of these actions – according to the secret services of Ukraine – is to block communication.
Unian recalls that on February 24, the State Special Communications Service called on mobile and internet operators to ensure communication, even if subscribers did not have sufficient funds in their accounts.
At the same time, mobile operators Kyivstar, Vodafone and lifecell blocked access to their networks for subscribers of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus.”
See what happens over the next few days.
At least the citizens should have the Briar App on their phones….
Polish forces could be waiting tonenter Western Ukraine, and in the process stop any Ukrainian refugees from flooding over the border, if indeed they are. The Polish see the likes of Lviv as Polish.
There could be a problem if Polish forces enter Western Ukraine.
” However, the public sentiment there is certainly not pro-Polish either. Until 1939, Ukraine’s eight western provinces were part of Poland, which pursued a strict nationalistic policy of “Polonization,” banning the use of the Ukrainian language there. Attempts by the local Ukrainian underground to resist this policy failed and resulted in mass-scale arrests. Small wonder that in 1939, many local residents greeted the Red Army with flowers. Until now, the Poles consider Ukrainian Lviv one of their cultural centers, calling the region the “lost eastern poviats” (district, Polish). Now it looks like Warsaw may get a chance to recoup itself.”
The various enforced adjustments of the western boundaries of the Ukraine since 1939 do indeed leave some scope for NATO disunity in the event that things don’t get settled relatively quickly.
We saw with the former Yugoslavia that perceived injustices, that we in western Europe had assumed had gone away, can easily be reignited.
A defector from the Polish border guards has provided evidence that the Polish military murdered en masse asylum seekers crossing the Belarus-Polnd border. I think an international crime case has been raised over that.
Western media manipulation and the masses amenable to propaganda.
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/war-propaganda-about-ukraine-becoming?utm_medium=email&utm_source=url
A variant on staying «safe».
Covid was just the first stage in the softening up process.
Sturgeon, really on message!
Well, I won’t go and choke, thanks.
I had similar moral trauma experience, and the only advice of my wise friend was to calm down, and to not take it personally, not get emotional, educate myself, it all helped me to find who is right and who is wrong.
I see from aside, very similar that situation was. A set of axioms in a person’s head, a set of identifiers given to them, and the worst thing ever done is that Robyn DiAngelo described typical human reactions to moral trauma in the context of racism. Mind you, she used ‘whites’ everywhere, meaning ‘american whites’, dismissing the idea there are whites outside the US.
All that emotional weaponry was used against me just in the same way – hit with condemnation, and every attempt to explain myself only did it worse in their eyes. And, that was a good person acting in good faith.
So, I’m not going to choke myself and die silently, just because sensitive people are morally traumatized and not ready to discuss the case. I suffer the same, but I at least try to understand why, when many are happy with the ‘Tonto’ theory.
Tatyana – well, you could change the w to s in `american whites’, then it wouldn’t be a racist statement and it might be an appropriate descriptor for the CIA.
Tatyana – you should also be aware that ‘shite’ with an e on the end is Scottish vernacular for ‘shit’, which is more commonly used in England.
Other ‘Scottishisms’ you might come across:
‘Wains’ = children.
‘That’s me’ = I’m ready (to go). As in ‘I just need to get my coat on and that’s me…’ said to your impatient husband looking to get off somewhere on time….
‘Jummy’ – a term for addressing any male a Glaswegian comes across without actually knowing their real name.
‘Tim’ – a derogatory term used by Scottish Loyalists (Protestants) for Catholics. Most notably used in vituperative chants by Rangers supporters toward their arch rivals Celtic.
‘Pisch’ – the scottish vernacular for ‘piss’ aka liquid excrement of humans, also used as slang for ‘rubbish/useless’.
‘Ye kannae’ – Scottish for ‘You cannot’.
‘Kult’. Not to be confused with the English word ‘cult’ (which means a group of eccentrics adhering to some distinctly minority set of values) . ‘Kult’ is a Glaswegian pronunciation of the Scottish male national attire covering the nether regions and thighs….which should never be referred to by the English as a skirt (since in England, skirts are only worn by women or drunken male students raising money for charity).
Not quite right Rhys but good try.
Weans
Jimmy
Cannae
Pish
‘Scottishisms’ I haven’t heard that turn of phrase before, Gleswegians (not Glaswegians) speak a form of broken Scots, Scots that Burns spoke in Ayrshire. The more so called polite ones speak English.
Only Glasweigians use most of those terms. It’s “bairns” elsewhere and north east and beyond have a different vocab again. Then there is the noth west.
By the way a “Tim” is a derogatory term only heard in Glasgow and maybe Ayrshire. Shame you even regurgitated it here.
The hysteria just keeps on going, and who is targeted by sanctions are the russian people itself.
FIFA suspends Russian teams, clubs from all competitions
https://tass.com/sport/1413547
These things^^ will only embolden Russia, the west now sends a signal that they indeed target russians, as a group, that will only give more support to Putin and give way to more nationalism.
The Collective West are throwing the kitchen sink at Russia. Do your worst..All pre planned with Regime Change in Moscow as the goal. They don’t want to fight Russia directly, will use Ukrainians and everybody else. Yet a big shock is coming in Syria and Iraq.
All of these so-called international institutions are heavily dominated by the West. They don’t reflect humanity any longer. A rebalancing is inevitable. We learned during the pandemic that some 60% of the WHO’s stuff are Americans or British. It’s high time to have institutions that are more representative of the world today. It applies to the Nobel prize and the Oscars as well.
Akos Horvath
I read so many of your Comments and I agree with all of them! You are the voice of sanity with experience what is/was happening in the countries on the border with countries in war regarding weapons dealing.
Negotiations for 5 hours in Belarus ended for consultation and be restarted again!
Hope, hope, hope!
On this cheering news, I bring you some russian tanks video
https://pikabu.ru/story/spetsoperatsiya_spetsoperatsiey_a_pomekhu_sprava_nikto_ne_otmenyal_8876511
The header says ‘war or not war, the traffic code must be respected’
Strange way to invade a country, indeed. The upper comment says: “People here mind their own business. Some are going to war, others going shopping”.
By the way, you see white Z marks? There were many witty suggestions on the sense, mostly untranslatable and making sense only for russophones.
Zlye ludi, Ze, Zorro and some obscene too.
You should share even the rude translation understanding other people though their humour brings people together, even if humour is often routed in local geography.
For example Americans fail to understand irony or self deprecation and Germans only laugh at other people’s expense.
Ok
‘Zlye ludie’ means ‘angry men’, as if alluding to the meme ‘polite men’ attached to the men in Crimea in 2014 who were acting extremely polite and the Crimea status change was performed with no single drop of blood shed.
Ze is short for Zelensky. Here in Russia we have a comedy show ‘Club of the merry and witty’. It started as far back as USSR and represented mostly students teams of our higher education institutions. Zelensky started there, then, as you see, he promoted to a big boss 🙂
Zorro is the character of a movie, cult type movie in Russia, times back we were lacking most worldwide culture. Zorro is a Robyn Hood, but much more macho type, best choice to suite the Russian mentality.
Obscene variants are dull revolving around genitalia, as always.
A not unsurprising report by Murray (you can take the man out of the Foreign Office but you can’t take the Foreign Office out of the man).
Russia is ending a war, not starting it. For the last 8 years, western armed and trained neo-Nazi groups, such as the Azov battalion, have been ethnically cleansing east Ukraine of its Russian-speaking east Ukraine inhabitants. In spite of the Russian-mediated Minsk Peace Prcoess established in 2015 requiring a ceasefire and poltiical negotiations aimed at producing a unified neutral Ukraine with autonomy for the two eastern oblasts, Kiev has done nothing, and the two other mediators, Germany and France, have just stood by. So far they have killed 14,000 citizens. The people in east Ukraine acquired Russian citizenship a while back and, in the face of an impending mass assault by the neo-Nazis, appealed to Russia for help. Given that Russia lost 27,000,000 people to the Nazis in World War II, Putin had no choice. These neo-Nazis are actually followers of a WWII Nazi collaborator, Stepan Bandera, a man so barbaric that even the SS had him jailed (FWIW there is a museum in his honour in London). The neo-Nazis contributed to the pogrom in Odessa where an unknown number (possibly hundreds) of pro-Russian Ukranians were attacked and burnt alive after taking refuge in the nearby trades union building. .
This pogrom is fully dissected using contemporaneous camera footage in episode 6 of the Roses have Thorns’ series
Roses Have Thorns (Part 6) The Odessa Massacre (16 Jul 2014) – Watchdog Media (YouTube, 1h 18m 39s)
The Ukraine neo-Nazi units are officially and legally part of the Ukraine military (following their threats to kill the previous president). Given this is unclear how much of Zelensky’s response is hias and how much due to the neo-Nazis and their US/UK handlers
In addition, in spite of Ukraine’s constitutionally defined neutrality, Ukraine was doing everything it could to be part of NATO. The US has placed Aegis Ashore nuke-capable missile systems in Poland and Romania. These have a 12 minute flight time to Moscow. If Ukraine joined NATO, the similar missile system there would be 5 minutes flight time. This poses an existential threat to Russia. This threat is real given NATO’s relenetless advance east in spite of agreeing not to when the Warsaw Pact was dissolved and given the US absolute refusal to consider that Russia (any any other country) have legitimate national security concerns.
Over the past 8 years, Russia has collected a massive data set of war crimes committed in Ukraine by the neo-Nazis, and by implication, the Ukraine govrnment. There are also numerous US DTRA outsourced bioweapons research facilities in Ukraine. Both China and Russia have notified the UN that the US has been acquiring Russian and Chinese DNA. There is a reasonable suspicion that this was not for peaceful purposes, given the US gave sanctuary to the head scientists of Unit 731, the WW II Japanese bioweapon research outfit. The Unit 731 deal was sanctuary from Soviet demands for war crimes trials in return for passing over all they knew about bioweapons.
And here are a couple of articles from people on the spot to throw the light of reality against the western fog of deception:
“What Russia Wants From Its Invasion of Ukraine and Why Zelensky Is Evil” A US businessman on a regular trip to Ukraine was caught up in a hotel in Kiev a few days ago. He describes what the Russians are doing and why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vdiEABLFoo
“What It’s Like in Ukraine Right Now: Notes from a Ukrainian friend”
https://www.phyle.co/p/what-its-like-in-ukraine-right-now?utm_source=url
And just a reminder, the US has tried this scam once before – in 2008 when they convinced Saakashvili, then president of Georgia, to attack Russian peacekeeping forces positioned between South Ossetia and Georgia. Saakashvili was told that Russia was weak and would do nothing. It wasn’t weak and it did do something. It went in hard, trashed the Georgian military infrastructure and left within a few days, with no attacks on civilian infrasturure.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f46/15/11/39/27/scale_12.jpg
Thank you for that synopsis Arfur. And thanks to craigmurray for the discussion space. A little bubble of relief from the current wall-to-wall propaganda campaign.