Anyone who knows the former Soviet space well understands the crucial difference between “grazdanstvo” – citizenship – and “narodnosc” – nationality. It featured on all identity documents, including passports, in the Soviet Union and on post Soviet national passports, at least until countries joined the EU.
I don’t know if it is currently retained on Ukrainian passports, or if not when it was dropped – perhaps someone might advise.
Everybody in the post Soviet sphere knew the distinction. In Uzbekistan, an inhabitant of Samarkand would almost certainly enter their citizenship – grazdanstvo – as Uzbek and their nationality – narodnosc – as Tajik, for example.
There has been a strange failure to counter the myth that the inhabitants of the Donbass are mostly Russian. They are not, and have not been so for many centuries.
The last census in Ukraine was in 2001, conducted under the pro-Russian president Leonid Kuchma. These are the narodnosc results as percentages for the regions Putin has just annexed.
Donetsk Region
Ukrainians 56.9
Russians 38.2
Greeks 1.6
Belarussians 0.9
Tatars 0.5
Armenians 0.3
Jews 0.5
Azerbaijanians 0.2
Luhansk Region
Ukrainians 58.0
Russians 39.0
Belarussians 0.8
Tatars 0.3
Armenians 0.3
Kherson Region
Ukrainians 82.0
Russians 14.1
Belarussians 0.7
Tatars 0.5
Moldavians 0.4
Armenians 0.4
Crimean Tatars 0.2
Zaporizhzhia Region
Ukrainians 70.8
Russians 24.7
Bulgarians 1.4
Belarussians 0.7
Jews 0.2
Armenians 0.3
Tatars 0.3
Georgians 0.2
In none of the regions Putin has just annexed were Russians a majority in 2001, let alone a 99.7% majority. Apparently 6.4 million Ukrainians have simply vanished.
For completeness here were the 2001 results for Crimea:
Russians 58.3
Ukrainians 24.3
Crimean Tatars 12.0
Belarussians 1.4
Tatars 0.5
Armenians 0.4
Jews 0.2
Poles 0.2
Moldavians 0.2
Azerbaijanians 0.2
There is an extremely important validation of these results available. They only show small changes from the last Soviet census in 1989. In all of these regions (bar Crimea) a majority identified their nationality as Ukrainian in the Soviet census too. So it is not a factor of Ukrainian independence.
Here is the region with the highest concentration of Russians – Donetsk – in the Soviet census in 1989.
Donetsk 1989 Soviet Census
Ukrainians 50.7
Russians 43.6
Greeks 1.6
Belarussians 1.4
Tatars 0.5
Armenians 0.2
Jews 0.5
Azerbaijanians 0.1
As I said, there has never been a Russian majority in the Donbass.
There may have been a slight Russian speaking majority. 14.8% of those, Ukraine wide, who identified their nationality as Ukrainian, gave Russian as their first language. This was higher in the East and lower in the West. But those who self-identify as Ukrainian but speak Russian as their first language, are no different to English speaking Scots. Russian speaking was advantageous in the Soviet Union.
There has never been a Russian majority in the Donbass. Never. The Russian minority in Donbass is mostly derived from the great population movements of 1946, when the Polish city of Lvov became Ukrainian and German cities like Breslau and Posen became Polish.
The Russian minority in Donbass is heavily urban, concentrated in the cities. The Ukrainian majority in the Donbass is heavily rural. The Russians are thus much more concentrated, visible and easy to mobilise. That is why it is genuinely possible to mobilise a pro-Russian demonstration in the cities of Luhansk or Donetsk. It is why journalists visiting those cities get a false impression of the wider population of the region.
That urban/rural split is of course not absolute, and just one factor in patchiness of distribution. Some eastern portions of the Donbass probably did have a Russian majority population.
Farmers cling to their land, and a surprising number of rural Ukrainians remained even within the minority proportion of the lands of the Donbass that became a Russian military enclave post 2014. Most of the land of Donbass, outside the Russian controlled areas, became even more Ukrainian as some population exchange between the areas occurred.
The majority of the territory of Donbass has been conquered by Russia only within the last six months and the population there certainly remains majority Ukrainian. Only in the easternmost areas, the post 2014 enclaves, is there at this moment almost certainly a Russian majority. But even they still have some Ukrainian rural populations.
The notion that the entire Donbass voted 99% to join Russia is just so ludicrous that I don’t know what to say to people who believe it, except that they are so blinded by ideology and hatred of western governments that they have quite literally stopped thinking.
I probably dislike western governments in a deeper and more informed way than they do; it just does not lead me to the ridiculous illogicality of believing that because the west is bad and run by warmongers, rival warmonger Putin and his oligarchs must be better.
You see Vanessa, I do know better. I speak Russian and Polish, have lived in St Petersburg and Warsaw, and have almost certainly both spent more time in Ukraine than you, while I have very definitely forgotten more Ukrainian history than you will ever know.
The idea that in Zaporizhzhia – where 24% of the population self identify as Russian – or Kherson, where 14% are Russian, 97% of the population voted to join Russia is so ludicrous that I can’t believe I find myself explaining it. I have friends in Kherson.
Equally ludicrous is Vanessa Beeley’s idea of election observation. Knowing nothing of the country or its history – and I am quite certain she has no idea of the above census facts – you cannot fly in for a few days and judge a democratic process free and fair.
There are international rules for election observation, long established by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe and more recently by the United Nations. These include that observers should not be funded by the host country or by any party involved or be dependent on either for logistics, transport, accommodation and communications. Observers should not be accompanied by any officials when observing.
I have asked Vanessa a few questions on the absolute basics of international referendum observation 101. Let me expand on those a bit here:
What electoral register was used? When was it taken?
What was the supervising body of the referendum? Where are its published rules? How independent was it?
Which people or organisations represented each side of the referendum question? How were they registered?
How long was the campaign period?
What broadcast debates were held?
How was equality of airtime on local broadcast media implemented? how did the observers monitor it?
What were the spending limits for each campaign? How much was spent? How was it audited?
Was each side able to campaign freely without fear and intimidation?
How were the observers dispersed geographically? How many in rural how many in urban areas? For how many weeks?
What campaigning was seen? Where is the observers’ photographic evidence of democratic campaigning by each side?
That is the basic work of any monitoring mission. Democracy is a process, not merely a vote. Only after that do we get to secrecy of the ballot, access to voting, intimidation at polling stations, security of the count etc.
The plain truth is that I resemble a Ducati motorbike more than what happened in Ukraine resembled a democratic process. Anybody who claims otherwise is simply an appalling liar. I was amused by a comment from Eva Bartlett, for whom I generally have much respect, who said she did not meet anybody opposed to the annexation.
If you think carefully, Eva, that is not the win you think it is.
These annexations are deeply unhelpful. They go way beyond anything to which Russia can have the slightest reasonable claim. I could see a negotiated settlement around Ukraine acknowledging Russian sovereignty over Crimea, and perhaps those parts of the Donbass within the control line as at February 2022.
But by declaring as Russian territory large regions of Ukraine to which Russia has no valid claim whatsoever, Putin has made a negotiated settlement almost impossible. He has also bitten off far more than he can chew. As I keep explaining, Russia is not the military superpower NATO wants us to believe in order to keep us fueling the military industrial complex.
Putin is playing into the hands of the United States’ strategy, to bleed Russia and degrade its military whilst expending only Ukrainian lives. Western military technology is vastly superior to Russian. Putin is sending 300,000 conscripts into a meat grinder. As more and more of that western weaponry reaches Ukraine and becomes operational, the Russian conscripts will neither see nor have a chance to fight the person killing them from way over the horizon.
The dangers of escalation towards the nuclear are becoming very real. I fully acknowledge and condemn the toxic nature of much Ukrainian nationalism, the glorification of Nazis, the banning of opposition parties and of Russian language teaching and media. I utterly oppose NATO expansion. Of course it was not Russia who blew up the Nordstream pipeline or shelled the nuclear power station they were themselves occupying.
I absolutely get all of that.
But unless Armageddon appeals to you, and if you have the slightest respect for truth over ideology, the cheering on of Putin has to stop.
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Some evidence that the IED wasn’t in the lorry but a boat or some type of semi-submersible drone packed with explosive was positioned under the bridge. Possibly timing this with the transit of the fuel train was deliberate.
No doubt those condemning the attack as an act of terrorism against civilians will be as eager to condemn Russia’s response on the same grounds.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/oct/10/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-putin-russian-security-council-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-power-plant-hit-again-latest-updates
Putinistas and tankies here and elsewhere realize what the rest of us are too dim to understand; the Russkiy Army is totes entitled to blow Ukraine to s41t… Because they have nukes. Obvious really when you think about it.
So I don’t believe it was a truck bomb (or a train bomb). The blast appears to have taken out at least one of the huge pillars holding up the deck; the deck would have shielded the pillars from any blast from an exploding truck. Demolishing the pillar would have required charges to have been carefully positioned.
So I’m inclined to think it was either frogmen or a submersible. And I don’t believe the anonymous Ukrainian official mentioned by @domb, who apparently confirmed it was a truck-bomb.
Years later, very slowly, with leaks and freedom of information requests the grotesque actions of US biolabs, funding, and secret research which went wrong, is being revealed. Jeffrey Sachs Chair of the Lancet group is interviewed by The Grayzone Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate about the situation today as Sachs tries to uncover the truth. I hope the Russian action in Ukraine has stopped the work of these bio labs which may have threatened the whole Slavic people. They discuss the funding going back to just after 9/11 Dick Cheney and the ever present Victoria Nuland, in every administration. Sachs talks about his colleagues the lies the small group involved.
Interesting how ‘bio labs’ (which on the whole do medical research) have become ‘bio-weapons labs’ in the minds of some.
Interesting how nuclear laboratories became nuclear weapons factories making a variety of types tested on civilians many times in Japan and the Pacific.
Interesting how many bio labs are positioned around Russia and China, who funds them, what research goes on and the secrecy involved. The truth will out eventually. Who remembers Halabja ? Our man in Iraq Saddam supplied with chemical weapons for use against Kurds and ask the Iranians how he used them against Iran. Professor Marrandi was twice attacked with chemical weapons. Apocalypse Now Holywood “I love the smell of Napalm in the morning” accompanied to the full orchestral sound of the Flight of the Valkeris. Ask Vietnam. A fascination and admiration in the west of the German Generals and Weapons of WW2. All crushed by the Red Army. NATO today, a military alliance of nearly 30 countries, populations of nearly a billion, arms budget of $350,450 Billion fighting Russia on its borders, using the bodies of Ukrainians as cannon fodder. How Noble.
“So I don’t believe it was a truck bomb (or a train bomb).”
The CCTV footage clearly shows the explosion above the deck. Pretty definitely a truck bomb. The only question is whether it was being driven by a suicide bomber or a victim.
Did you notice that in the days prior to the bridge bomb exploding, a Northrop Grumman RQ-4B Global Hawk was flying around in endless circles at 55000ft over the northern Black Sea close to Crimea, but not too close of course?
I did notice; and a while later there appeared a US AWACS, and various smaller military aircraft (including at least one Black Hawk helicopter) performing similar monotonous circuits above the Black Sea coast of Romania.
The RQ-4B came from an airfield called Sigonella, in Sicily.
Coincidence? I’m sure it will have been.
“No doubt those condemning the attack as an act of terrorism against civilians will be as eager to condemn Russia’s response on the same grounds.”
Link, please to evidence.
Today’s news, for sealions everywhere:
“In a televised address, Putin said he had ordered “massive” long-range strikes against Ukrainian energy, command and communication targets, using missiles fired from air, sea and land, in response to what he described as terrorist attacks, including Saturday’s explosion at the Kerch Strait bridge.
“The Kyiv regime, with its actions, has put itself on the same level as international terrorist organisations. With the most odious groups. To leave such acts without a response is simply impossible,” Putin said.”
I think you’d have a harder time trying find a news outlet that isn’t reporting it, even in Russia.
Sealions?
Yup, sealions.
sealioning
A disparaging term for the confrontational practice of leaping into an online discussion with endless demands for answers and evidence.
More info here, just in case you ask for further evidence.
Ah, so a bit like “conspiracy theory”, then. How dare anyone ask for evidence? Surely no commenter on this august blog would be talking out of the wrong orifice.
Oh, and BTW, I think you missed the point of my request.
Now you’re obfuscating. ‘Sealioning’ doesn’t refer to any kind of request for evidence, just its usage as a dissembling technique. (You’re still doing it.)
“BTW, I think you missed the point of my request.”
Oh, so your ungrammatical request “Link, please to evidence” was more profound than I realised. So could you perhaps specify what you meant in more than 4 words?
It’s another of those irregular verbs, isn’t it, I ask for evidence, you sealion, he is an internet troll.
Usually*, I ask for evidence from people who make unsupported statements and expect me to believe them for no other reason that they are saying it. Why is this obfuscation? Most of the obfuscation on this blog is commenters not ansering questions, but simply changing the subject or coming out with another unsupported statement on the same subject. I would have though that blog comments that consist solely of people barking statements and not asking or answering questions is much more reminiscent of a sealion colony than the reverse.
*not this time though, the clue is in the comment to which I was replying.
We’re hearing astonishment from the Radio-4 World at One presenter, at the defence of Russia’s actions from some Russian minister.
Of course it’s terrible. Bombing civilians is always terrible, and it’s presumably not that nice being bombed even if one is in the military.
However, I do not recall the same tones and lines of questioning when it was “shock and awe” against Iraqi civilians, and I have never heard an Israeli minister being required to defend the actions of the IDF and met with frank disbelief. Israel routinely responds with attacks on civilians and civil infrastructure in response to Palestinian ‘provocation’, so it’s not as if the BBC doesn’t get the chance very often.
(Before Imperialist apologists do their knee-jerk shrieking, as trained to do, of “Whataboutary! Whataboutary!” – just bear in mind that if we had a scrap of credibility here, or the slightest consistency, the rest of the world might actually be able to take our moralising seriously.)
But in any case – what did Ukraine expect? The Russians have had car bombs killing journalists (not that they usually care much about them, granted), sinking a flagship and finding this a great hoot, and now Putin’s special bridge half destroyed. Did anyone think Putin was likely to take that sitting down, or slink off and mope about it? Everyone knows what Putin is like.
People taking selfies against a backdrop of huge posters of the bridge, mid-explosion, in order to mock Putin – seriously, what did anyone expect would result from that?
Seems like Russia focused on military target and infrastructure. According to Ukraine,11 people have been killed as I write this.
“Ukraine-Russia live news: Kyiv says 11 killed by missile attacks”
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2022/10/10/several-explosions-heard-in-ukraine-capital-kyiv
Yes compare those 11 killed with the Shock and Awe bombings or any other bombings by the west past 20 years! (Not to say that it is somehow OK that 11 civilians were killed today).
Zelensky bears very large responsibility; he bombed the Kerch bridge the other day knowing Russia would respond like this.
The Al Jazeera article says nothing about the nature of the targets in Kyiv and elsewhere.
Your summary: Ukraine shouldn’t attack important Russkiy military logistic targets because they know that Putin would respond like this.
What Russkiy targets are in your opinion acceptable targets for the Ukrainian Army?
Thanks.
“Your summary: Ukraine shouldn’t attack important Russkiy military logistic targets because they know that Putin would respond like this.”
Perhaps you’d like to explain what Zelensky thought would be the result of bombing the bridge. That the entire Russian army in Ukraine, together with the LPR and DPR militias, would give up and go home?
I’m glad that people have stopped trying to pretend it’s not the Ukranians doing such things. Perhaps there could be some acknowledgement of the possibility that they might have been shelling civilians in the Donbass throughout this war if not before, as well.
> Perhaps you’d like to explain what Zelensky thought would be the result of bombing the bridge.
Well, none of us is a telepath! But let’s speculate:
Russia has land access to Crimea through the Donbas, which is mostly occupied by Ukraine, which is advancing at the moment. Moving materiel through southern Ukraine is dangerous, and getting more dangerous. The bridge provides an alternative route to Crimea and southern Ukraine, and knocking it out would be a pre-requisite to recpaturing Ukraine. Knocking the bridge out also means that Russia would be left with two means of resupply: by sea, to Sevastopol, and by land, through a battlefield. The Mockva incident shows that the sea route is dodgy.
Cutting enemy lines of communication is basic warfighting strategy.
Oh, you meant “Did Zelyinsky think Russia wouldn’t retaliate?” Of course he thought they’d retaliate! But they were already shelling Ukrainian cities. They’re already doing their worst.
Or do you subscribe to the theory that Russia has been holding back, out of humanitarian concern? Seriously?
“Oh, you meant “Did Zelyinsky think Russia wouldn’t retaliate?”
No I meant, did JK think that Zelensky thought Russia wouldn’t retaliate. In any case, if Zelensky thought they wouldn’t retaliate like they have done, he’s a fool and he thought they would, he’s a dangerous fool.
“They’re already doing their worst.”
In which case, why were the Russians able to knock out so many of Ukraine’s power stations and other infrastructure, if they were “already doing their worst”? If you think that the most recent attack on Ukraine was no worse than before, you either haven’t been paying attention or are deliberately being blind. Nor is Zelensky’s publicised reaction that of a man who thinks things haven’t got any worse. Yes, he may have thought that, before, but, in that case, now he knows differently.
Perhaps, he believes the people that tell him he is winning, that the Russians are on the run, that it is only a matter of time before the victorious Ukranian army sweeps up to the old eastern borders of Ukraine and perhaps beyond like this character, https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/editorpicks/ukraine-is-going-to-win-estonia-s-departing-spy-chief-opens-up-on-putin-s-war/ar-AA12M1CL? , that Russia is a paper tiger and that bombing the bridge would be a morale booster that provoked nothing more than business as usual. Who knows?
It is a war which means destruction of enemies economy, industry, infrastructure and people.
As Americans said “civilians are a collateral damage”(we don’t count)
So you are right everything is military target because everything supports War machine.
What do you think economic sanctions are?
Since you behave like football supporter here is one for you with apologies
“you are not singing any more”
O/t but important is so called no flying zone. It is just euphemism for destruction of
infrastructure that can support Aircraft. Airports Radars, Fuel( roads transporting fuel, refineries producing fuel. bridges connecting roads transporting fuel ETC.
Let’s see If new commander will implement no fly zone over Ukraine.
The construction of the Kerch Bridge was itself an aggressive act, the cherry on the cake of the Crimea invasion, and the only link between Russia and Crimea before the Donbas invasion. I’m surprised it’s taken so long to hit it; it’s not just a legitimate target, it’s a key line of communication for the Russians.
Crimea has long been a holiday destination for Russians; and Russians duly flooded across the bridge to have a nice beach holiday in a warzone (oops – special military operation zone). I don’t think they were misinformed by their travel agent; I think they knew exactly what they were doing.
“I’m surprised it’s taken so long to hit it; it’s not just a legitimate target, it’s a key line of communication for the Russians.”
In case you haven’t noticed, as far as the Russians are concerned, it’s Russia all the way to the landward end of the Crimean peninsula, but yeah, I’m surprised it’s taken them so long, it’s not as if they haven’t been saying that they would. Perhaps it took them a long time to find a suicide bomber.
So you’re basically justifying the murder of civilians by indiscriminate bombing as an appropriate response to Ukraine partially damaging an infrastructural target with 3 collateral casualties? After months of Russia killing tens of thousands with attacks on supposed ‘infrastructural targets’? What kind of person are you? Look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself that. It’s perfectly possible to condemn both the US and UK’s murderous invasion of Iraq and Russia’s murderous invasion of Ukraine. See, I’ve just done it. Stop being so weak-minded.
No point addressing this question to the Putin bots here who describe an invasion of a sovereign country as a ‘special operation’ and any military response to that invasion as ‘terrorism’. They’re among the worst people on the planet right now, advocates for a pointless war that is killing thousands. As in Iraq.
ASC:
“So you’re basically justifying the murder of civilians….”
No, I wasn’t justifying any such thing.
No offence, but one would have to have some serious comprehension difficulties to conclude something like that.
You’re pushing for a peaceful solution immediately I take it (and not with some simplistic nonsense such as “Russia out now!”, please), or are you happy to see all this continue indefinitely?
I am waiting for the EU and Nato to really “stand by” Ukraine now. Will flying flags, sending money and weapons now progress to Nato entering the war directly ? Its going to be a long wait with the battle still being waged in the News Rooms and crocodile tears as Russia responds to its pipelines and bridge being attacked. For months Russia refrained from doing what it has started doing today. This is tragic for everyone. Millions of refugees will now flood Europe fleeing the cities. Nato certainly started something it can’t finish. The Ukrainian leadership and its handlers have tried everything, crossed every red line, nuclear to biological. Ukraine is destroyed in an attempt to bleed Russia. I cant see Victoria Nuland handing out food in Midan today. The cretins still have a few weeks before the Mid Terms to do something even more disastrous.
“But in any case – what did Ukraine expect?”
That’s justifying Putin’s response. You have the choice of condemning the bombing of civilian targets. Instead you suggest that Ukrainians provoked an attack by taking some delight in a bridge associated with Putin being damaged. Really? After they’ve seen their homes destroyed and population raped, tortured and killed for months for the crime of existing as a sovereign country. You think Putin and his Russian thugs needed some excuse? You’re apologizing for war crimes.
“That’s justifying Putin’s response.”
Only in your mind. Any leader of a country should weigh up the consequences of their actions before acting, so it is a legitimate question to ask what the Ukraine leadership thought that Russia’s response would be. If they knew that what would happen would happen, they are grossly irresponsible, if they didn’t think it would happen, they were deluded. By acknowledging what is likely to happen if you do something you are not justifying that reaction, you are just taking it into account.
“You think Putin and his Russian thugs needed some excuse?”
So you think that Putin and his Russian thugs are the sort of monsters who enjoy bombing cities for the hell of it? If that is the case, surely the Ukrainian leadership knew that too and so they also knew that provoking them by blowing up the bridge would provoke precisely the response it has, or do you think they are too stupid to have thought of that?
And, presuming they ordered the attack, you don’t think the Ukrainian government and military didn’t weigh up the consequences of trying to take out the Kerch bridge in order to cut supplies to Russian troops invading their country? Of course they did. “If they knew that what would happen would happen, they are grossly irresponsible, if they didn’t think it would happen, they were deluded.” So you think it would be ‘irresponsible ‘for Ukrainians to take any military action in defense of their country? Or just an action that might hurt Putin’s ego/reputation in Russia? It’s a ridiculous argument and, again, excuses (justifies) Russian targetting of civilians in retribution.
Is Russia’s response smart btw? Of course not. It’s desperate, intended for internal consumption to shore up Putin’s support, and will likely see the arrival of more sophisticated air defense systems from NATO countries.
“So you think it would be ‘irresponsible ‘for Ukrainians to take any military action in defense of their country? Or just an action that might hurt Putin’s ego/reputation in Russia? It’s a ridiculous argument and, again, excuses (justifies) Russian targetting of civilians in retribution.”
Now you are putting words in my mouth, always the resort of someone who’s on shaky ground in an argument. I said that, if they knew that yesterday’s attack on the Ukranian infrastructure would happen if they blew up the Kerch bridge, then they accepted those civilian deaths as collateral damage, outweighed by the strategic advantage of cutting an important transport link. You may not think of that as irresponsible, but I do. It is also irresponsible for the Ukranian leadership to take any military action in defense of their country regardless of the consequences, like, perhaps, shelling a nuclear power station. It is not that they don’t have first-hand experience of what happens when one blows up. It is quite clear these people don’t give a shit, not even for their own people, whom they probably despise.
“It’s a ridiculous argument “
I agree, why did you bring it up? I didn’t.
“Is Russia’s response smart btw? Of course not. It’s desperate, intended for internal consumption to shore up Putin’s support,”
Ah, so Russia’s attack, which hasn’t cost a single Russian life, and has knocked out another quarter of Ukraine’s generating capacity, is “desperate, intended for internal consumption to shore up Putin’s support”, whereas Ukraine’s offensive, now stalled, which captured a few towns and villages at huge cost in Ukranian lives, is neither desperate, nor intended for internal and foreign consumption to shore up Kiev’s support. You’d do a lot better if you stuck to what was verifiable or reasonably likely to be true and didn’t just parrot obvious propaganda. No-one takes any notice of it except others who are pushing the same stuff.
I admit that my writing is bad but comprehension of some people is bad!
Why this site doesn’t have likes and other options
There are none so dumb as those that don’t want to comprehend.
No thinking person subscribes to the disingenuous framing of this as an unprovoked invasion. Do you think the US would have delayed as long as Putin did to incessant hostile military manoeuvres on its borders? And the US has no history of being repeatedly invaded and almost destroyed.
No thinking person subscribes to the disingenuous framing of this (invasion of Ukraine) as anything other than an unprovoked invasion.
FFS.
Nobody who can be bothered to do the smallest amount of historical research can be ignorant of the provocation leading up to the invasion in February. Only those who think that what they what they want to be true is therefore true would call this invasion unprovoked. An overreaction to the provocation, possibly, but unprovoked, no.
According to the likes of John, the history of any conflict only starts when the side he doesn’t like takes action.
Nothing happened before that. Therefore, Russia invaded Ukraine for absolutely no reason whatsoever, end of story.
The solution is equally simple. The side he doesn’t like must immediately go away, pay massive compensation just before killing themselves and donating their country to the side he does like, or some-such.
John, it’s never too late to take a moment to consider how NATO’s relentless encroachment has been viewed in Russia. A simple way in is to try and imagine an equivalent organisation menacing the West. Then perhaps read up about the number of devastating invasions Russia has experienced from the west.
ASC
No he (Glenn) did not claim that, Glenn called out the western media hypocrisy on this subject.
By the way, a state could still commit crimes (i.e terrorism) regardless if the state in quesiton is the attacker or a victim of a war.
Jack. In your opinion was the attack on the Kerch Bridge an act of terrorism or a legitimate act of war?
Thanks
Terrorism has been an accepted part of warfare since at least WWII, if not before.
My terrorist is your freedom fighter and vice versa. My rebel is your terrorist.
Do you know that Donbas rebels were according to Ukraine government terrorist?
Do you know that Ukraine government had military operation against the terrorist
in self proclaimed Republics. F**king war/conflict did not start in 2022?
John
I agree – let’s use the phrase that ” All is fair in love and war ”
So if Russia ups the ante then the media may debate the difference between sabotage and
and non UN sanctioned military actions.
As Shock and Awe was unsanctioned when the US attacked Iraqi infrastructure and civilians.
Sadly – the ante is about to be upped in Kiev and Lviv.
You can’t really have a go at Putin for his whataboutery as unfortunately what he says is true.
The question is – will he do what the US has done and say ” Well you did it – so don’t whinge when we do it? ”
My opinion is that Putin just might and one thing is for sure -I’m sure is that you will never see any US boots on the ground if the balloon goes up in Ukraine.
However you will see the British and some European countries invited to fight on the US’ s ( sorry – the Ukranian’s behalf) to take on the forces of Evil.
This a proxy war alright.
Yes he did, as explained above. A failure to condemn deliberate bombing of civilians (a war crime) compounded by attribution of responsibility to Ukrainians for ‘provoking’ Putin is effectively giving justification for the war crime.
Where is NATO ? Where is the EU ? Where is Victoria Nuland ?
@Wikikettle Is there a point you’re trying to make?
ASC:
“Yes he did, as explained above.“
No I did not, and you explained nothing. You made an _assertion_, and a rather silly one at that. A silly assertion is not the same thing as proof or an explanation.
If you cannot get beyond making silly assertions, then we have very little to talk about, because I dislike pointless conversations with people unable to get past the very basics.
___
Just in case you really are that hard of thinking, let me help you out with an example.
Imagine going up to a bunch of Millwall fans with a Chelsea scarf, and shouting, “All Millwall are wankers! Millwall is full of poofs!”
What do you suppose will happen?
Now is that a justification of Millwall supporters beating someone up?
Sit down and try to think about it before replying.
ASC
No he did not, what you are trying to do won’t work so just stop.
And there was no “deliberate” strike on civilians.
Bombing the bridge, a civilian target where civilians were travelling and killed beget retribution.
Russia have even said they would, in case of an ukrainian attack.
@Jack So the Russians are just consistently bad at aiming for non-civilian targets? You’re seriously going with that?
‘Beget retribution’. Quaint phrasing for a murderous campaign involving the targetting of civilians by Russia for months as a very deliberate strategy. The idea that Putin needed ‘provocation’ is delusional. I realise that discussion with you apologists is pointless. You have the floor here, courtesy of Craig Murray. Enjoy.
@glenn_nl
Take some advice: your sense of ethical judgment has been warped by spending too long here. All your posts reek of apologizing for Russia’s invasion and war crimes as somehow ‘provoked’. As I said, you seem feeble-minded.
ASC
Today they targeted military and infrastructure, they have not targeted civilians and certainly not deliberately.
I mean it is you that talk about terrorism and targeting civilians. Lets test you, do you recognize the ukrainian bombing of the bridge as a terror attack (civilian deaths, civilian target)? You say no right – and thus prove my point that you do not care about someone using terror or targeting civilians, if that someone is someone you support.
I am against the war so do not try that nonsense about apologists.
@Jack
“I mean it is you that talk about terrorism”
No, I haven’t. I criticized Russia apologists who label legitimate strategic war targets as terrorism. It’s not a term I use much as the institutions that make most use of terror in my view are states. But my own rationale for deciding whether an attack was warfare or terrorism is quite simple: was the attack intended to kill military personnel or destroy infrastructure, or provoke fear (terror) among the civilian population, or both? If an action is meant to terrify, it’s terrorism. Russia is clearly at present a terrorist state – just as the US, the UK and other European countries have been frequently throughout their history. As in Chechnya, spreading terror among civilians is a Russian war tactic.
Attempting to blow up the Crimea bridge clearly had a strategic purpose in terms of reducing supplies to the Russian units in southern Ukraine. Was it intended as a ‘symbolic’ attack on Putin? Seems so. Was it intended to incite terror among the population of Crimea or Russia? No idea. I would note it was timed for early morning and less traffic, but that may just have been coincidental in terms of timing. We also don’t actually know who perpetrated the attack, though the presumption is Ukraine special forces. Reducing supplies to forces that are currently bombarding Ukraine military and civilians seems a self-evidently ‘legitimate’ target (in terms of international law) in a war where Ukraine is defending its own sovereign territory and attempting to expel invaders.
I have no idea how you conclude that Russia hasn’t deliberately targeted civilians yesterday and today when reports and images show residential blocks, universities etc. have been hit across the country.
“All your posts reek of apologizing for Russia’s invasion and war crimes as somehow ‘provoked’.”
I’m glad some people still believe in fairy stories, let me tell you one,
“Once upon a time there was a very bad man called Vladimir and he ruled a big country full of bad men like him. One morning he woke up and said to himself “I know what I am going to do today, I am going to take all my very bad men and we are going to invade the country next door”. Now the country next door was full of very good men, who had never done anything bad in their lives and their leader was a very good man, also called Vladimir, except he spelled it Volodymir because he didn’t want people to think he was one of the very bad men in the country next door. Now the very good Volodymir was very sad that the very bad Vladimir had invaded his country and he went round to all the leaders of the other countries round about and said “Very bad Vladimir has invaded my country, even though neither I, nor any of my countrymen have ever done anything bad in their lives, it was a completely unprovoked attack” and all round the neighbouring countries the people said that very bad Vladimir was very bad, because he had made an unprovoked attack on the country of very good Volodymir, who had never done anything bad in his life, nor had his countrymen.”
OTOH, perhaps we should leave the fairy stories to parents trying to get their children to sleep and not tell them in comments on blog posts about a war.
@ASC: I’ll take the advice of Mark Twain, referring to speaking with the likes of yourself :
“Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level, and beat you with their superior experience there.”
If you come up with anything worth saying, it will be a first – but do let me know. In the meantime, adios.
@Bayard Agree, I suggest you take your own advice and don’t bother with the mock fairy tale, which really only reflects your inability to come up with a better response. Russia had no justifiable cause for war with Ukraine. After launching the war, any criticism or dislike of the Ukrainian regime has to be deferred, I think, in the face of the Ukrainian people’s right to defend themselves from killing and brutalization by Russian forces. Under international law, countries have the right to arm themselves and make alliances with other countries as they deem fit. Do I think the west made strategic geopolitical mistakes with Russia? Yes, huge ones. Does that justify the war on Ukraine? Absolutely not.
ASC
We dont talk about what you think terrorism is defined as, we talk about what terrorism is defined as in the dictionary, and Ukraine made a terrorist act when they bombed that bridge (again, civilian target, civilians died). You see, you whine here on pro-russian “apologists” but you are an apologist for Ukraine and their terrorism.
Russia targeted dozens cities in their latest offensive, 14 civilians killed as I write this according to Ukraine sources.
I mean use your head now, deliberately killing and…. 14 civilians killed? Come on. If Russia deliberarately target civilians, well we would be counting in the many 100s of thousands of deaths, millions now if that were the goal of russian strikes.
@Jack
OED:
Terrorism
“the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.”
Ukraine is at war, having been attacked by Russia; it lawfully has the right to defend itself, including through targeting strategic enemy infrastructure. That’s not political. We’re arguing about interpretation of definitions, not definitions, and yours is plainly wrong.
The sad thing here is reading posts getting over-excited about Russia promising brutal retaliation echoed by posts claiming that brutal retaliation isn’t deliberate. Make up your collective mind.
“Russia had no justifiable cause for war with Ukraine.”
Possibly, possibly not, but that doesn’t mean that the war wasn’t provoked.
“After launching the war, any criticism or dislike of the Ukrainian regime has to be deferred, I think, in the face of the Ukrainian people’s right to defend themselves from killing and brutalization by Russian forces.”
Is English your first language, because you do realise that that is a justification for Nazism? Nazis don’t stop being Nazis just because their Nazi regime is attacked. Glad that you acknowledge that Ukraine launched the war, too.
Your simplistic dualist world view where one side are the goodies and the other side the baddies belongs to the fairy tale world you choose to inhabit. In the real world, one side can be bad and the other worse, or even both sides can be equally bad. When Cromwell fought the Scottish Covenanters, both sides were convinced that they had God on their side, that they were going to triumph over the evildoers, but, sadly God refused to take sides and the battle was won by superior strategy.
“Do I think the west made strategic geopolitical mistakes with Russia? Yes, huge ones. Does that justify the war on Ukraine? Absolutely not.”
Have to agree with you there, but again, “unjustified” does not equate to “unprovoked”.
“Ukraine is at war, having been attacked by Russia; it lawfully has the right to defend itself,”
Do you include the shelling of civilian areas of Donetsk in this “right to defend itself”? Or do you think that a failure to condemn deliberate bombing of civilians (a war crime) compounded by attribution of responsibility to Russians for ‘provoking’ Ukraine is not giving justification for the war crime when it’s not the Russians doing the bombing?
ASC
Ukraine have been waging war against Donbas for years before any Russian invasion. So if anyone has the right to defend themselves it is the Donbas people and if they seek the help of Russia, that is their right too.
You are too apologetic for Ukraine that you are not seeing the crimes they commit.
@Jack When precisely did the Russian invasion of Donbas begin? Because it wasn’t in 2022. Just like the US elsewhere, Russia has been backing separatists militarily since the annexation of Crimea, if not earlier. Regional separatism is a complex and somewhat separate issue from full-on invasion of a country. I’ve no doubt war crimes at various scales were and have been committed by both sides. Incidentally, the idea that Russia has not been and isn’t an imperial power, just like the USA and Britain, or France, or China, is ridiculous. There’s a refrain of Russian victimhood on these pages which doesn’t match Russia’s own history of invasions, colonizations and subjugations. I have no love for the Ukraine government, past or present, but I do support the principle of non-violent self-determination. That cuts lots of different ways. Russia’s history is filled with the suppression and murder of indigenous peoples and other ethnic groups. It acts like an imperial power too. And the present conflict has been depicted by its own architects as a return, effectively, to Russian imperialism. I really don’t understand how those so vociferously (and very often correctly) opposing US imperialism don’t grasp that fact.
@Bayard
Your argument is ridiculous. Nazi Germany was invaded by allied forces because it had launched numerous invasions of other countries before Germany itself had to defend itself from invasion. As I presume you know.
ASC
Yes Russia has been backing russians in Donbas before invasion and the government in Ukraine have been backed by US/Nato. And it is the government of Ukraine that have wrecked and caused the majority warcrimes past years in Donbas and not the other way around.
Donbas like other regions do not want to be part of Ukraine still Ukraine now try to regain and subjugate the people living there in that region. Imperialism right?
“Your argument is ridiculous. Nazi Germany was invaded by allied forces because it had launched numerous invasions of other countries before Germany itself had to defend itself from invasion. As I presume you know.”
As I do know, which is why I wasn’t referring to Germany in particular. Try substituting “repressive” for “Nazi” if you are struggling to get my drift.
Where did you read about “indiscriminant bombing”? Russia launched a hundred or so missiles and there were about a dozen deaths reported. Based on the fact that electricity was unavailable in many cities, obviously the Russians struck power transmission and some generation (but not the nuclear plants – only Ukrainians do that) infrastructure. It’s anything but indiscriminant. Stop exaggerating.
To add a tail to the top. My feeling is…
Here comes the pain nananana…
These dachas stolen by foreigners and mafiosi.
All these Porsche cayennes and other high end SUV’s with Ukraine number plates littering the streets of Europe.
There are superyachts waiting to be sucked under by the ? no one will hear a thing.
There are secluded and secret estates and bunkers far from prying eyes – they will cease without fanfare like many Atlantis’s.
There are ancient fortunes and banks shielded in red red blood, they will subside under the sands.
There are many names that will disappear from history as the bearers will shun them
This rain of pain will release us chickens from the farms we are raised in and we will see that we were merely prey for our overlords who always worked for the ancient Slave Owners.
That’s just a gut feeling. Now for some head, some facts.
There are the narrative blaggers who want to say whatever is happening is down to just ‘a leader’.
They don’t seem to say that it’s down to OUR leaders, who range from a dottard potus to a barely competent Truss to a egotist Macron to delude whole German leadership to annoying wokees to psychotic demented Baltic kamikaze Atlanticists.
They constantly say it is PUTIN who is actually in charge of every Russian action. Some even fantasise that he hides in some bunker. When in fact he is constantly in meetings with the worlds leaders and internally.
So who exactly is in charge of the new tactics today? The result of the ascension of the new regions into Russia last week.
This explains it as clearly as possible, a short quote
“ The appointment of Sergei Surovikin (aka “Severoviy”) as commander of the united group of troops has already borne serious fruit. Recently I had a close conversation with our techno-journalist friend, who asked me who I see as the most promising commander in the SMO zone, referring to specific names, we all know them. I answered him, that good management requires neither a ‘jack-of-all-trades’ (a military man, who emerged from civilian ranks) nor a ‘stormtrooper’ in the vanguard of an offensive – everyone has his tasks, and there is no need to put them in the wrong places. And what is needed is a combat general who knows the specifics of working with the various branches of troops and can establish quality interaction. I confess, at that moment I had completely forgotten about “Severe”. And in vain, as it turned out.
As a result, on the first day of the new commander-in-chief we have:
⚔️ Over 200 arrivals in Ukraine, which is quite a record. By the way, the sorties are the same Kalibras that by all laws of military propaganda we should have run out of.
⚔️ Massive power cuts in almost all of Ukraine
⚔️ Serious water supply outages
⚔️ Damage to critical wartime infrastructure – primarily repair factories where the AFU was being repaired
⚔️ Fuel and supply disruptions in virtually every region
⚔️ Transport collapse at Ukrzaliznytsia: trains are stopped, and some routes are switched to diesel – which naturally leads to the aggravation of the fuel situation
⚔️ Ukrainian Security Service building struck, head of Cyber Police of Ukraine department Yuriy Zaskoka, who was responsible for coordinated telegram bot attacks, eliminated
It’s coming down hard. It’s going to rain (C)
Crucially, there is a clear awareness that today is far from the last in a series of Egyptian executions that the Kiev regime and its followers have inflicted on their heads. By evening, Ukraine is once again covered in air-raid alarms. The city goes to sleep – the Calibers wake up.
And the most important thing in this whole story is that the Ukrainian authorities have warned of the consequences, of not playing with fire and poking a stick in the den. Back in the summer, Dmitriy Medvedev promised that in the event of a strike on Crimea, the Ukrainians would face “Judgment Day”. Well, 10.10.2022 was that doomsday for the Ukrainians.
By astramilitarum
@Slavyangrad”
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/13353
———————————
There we have it. Still want to shill that it is down to one 70 year old man? Against a clown turned tragedian?
Apparently the Biden regime is suddenly looking for a off-ramp! It’s back there in your rear view mirror you idiots! – you went flying past it when clearly offered it a year ago. Lots of flashing redlines showing that not taking it would lead to here and worse…
So stop the bs. Stop the insane amount of mincer feeding of hundreds upon hundreds of unwilling Ukrainian conscripts. Stop feeding mercenaries in. Stop shilling the nafo barking.
Or be stopped, where ever you think you are safely sitting. Just like the last line of that list above.
Holy Shamoly.
“There are ancient fortunes and banks shielded in red red blood, they will subside under the sands.”
Will they now?
All by the occult power of His Awe the Tsar?
What a great steaming load of rhubarb.
Tankie Fantasies of Apocalypse…
It was Sinjun Philby, father of Kim, who arranged the biggest oil deal in the world between US and Saudi Arabia. Can Biden with his Ray Ban Aviator sunglasses and men in black suits from the agency terminate MBS and install another ? How long can Imran survive ? The Godfather walking mummy threatened ” no one fucks with “a” Biden. Real life mafiosi no different than the Hitlerites and Banderites about to meet their Waterloo at Kursk.
Been reading too much Nostradamus.
Jokes about smoking near important infrastructure are no much fun today, John?
—
Sorry for all civilians deaths.
Never was going to call dead people with cold terms like ‘collateral damage’, neither going to start using it now.
Silly folk on another place tried their best set of nazi propaganda on me today. Persuading me to take their wordview with ‘ours’ brave fighters and ‘theirs’ coward occupants. I asked back, who are ‘my side’ given that I’m of Cossacks origin and розумiю мову. Still waiting for the answer.
Well, whoever were waiting for possible peace talks, those should remember that Ze issued a legal paper forbidding any peace negotiations with Putin. He did this the next day after his demonstrated signing of the NATO application, about a week ago.
I really do not know how the things start developing now. In his today’s speech Putin said that the bombings are the reaction to terrorism. He mentioned Crimean Bridge, Daria Dugina car explosion, Kursk nuclear plant – by the way, do your media report on Ukrainian attacks on Russian regions Belgorod and Kursk? Do they report on several strikes on Kursk nuclear plant?
Anyway, nothing good to be expected. Honestly, nothing good was expected back in the times of Turchinov starting anti-terror operation against Donbass and Crimea. People remember good the cynicism of the Ua govt promoting the name ‘train of friendship’ when sending nazi batallions. Cutting them off fresh water and exploding power lines. Donbass recalls the handwritten ‘for kids of Donbass’ on the missiles, Ukrainian nazis were proud to photo their cynicism. They also remember, after the pro-Russian people were burnt alive in Odessa, Poroshenko visited there and praised Odessians on being wise to subdue. He said, literally ‘you made right decision, because our kids will go to kindergartens, and their kids will hide in basements’.
So, today Russia applied to many international organizations like HRC, Amnesty etc, asking to investigate the executions of civilians in Kupiansk. I dare say, my personal take of this is – the last chance for the collective West to show if they truly are impartial and truly stand for human freedoms.
Regarding the change of the commander (whose nickname is said to be known in Syria as General Armageddon) I dare say Russia has little trust into impartiality and fair play of the collective West.
Looks like we are doomed. It looked so in the beginning of the year, with only some faint hopes for sound minds in governments. It looked like a probability then. Now it becomes looking like a destiny.
I remember that I once received a special warning from the moderators not to tell the participants in the discussion how they should feel.
I hope that on this site the rule is the same for everyone, and your comment will be deleted because of “you must be very proud Tatyana”.
History really isn’t your strong point, is it? Russia hasn’t had a Tsar since 1917. Nor for that matter is comprehension, or were you too eager to come out with your snidy little comments to actually read what Tatyana wrote?
John, here are the links for you, compare
https://youtu.be/qgcnDVAUrKI
https://youtu.be/2npabbv0wH4
I had not come across the idea of sealioning until it was describe earlier in this thread and I wonder if this is a typical example. It reflects a narcissistic style of reasoning based on self-defined axioms that challenge the reader or listener to agree unqualifiedly to the statement. “Do you not agree?”. (Disagree at your peril because if you do n’t you will only get more of the same abuse) “Fascistic” is another way of describing it.
Thanks Tatyana. Seems that the only people who care about Ukrainians are Russian.
Like saying that the only people who cared about Poland in the early 1940’s were National Socialist Germany and Stalin’s USSR.
Hi, Rosemary.
Actually, what Ukrainians say on camera in the streets, for all the world to see, is just a tip of an iceberg. In closed venues they are feeling much more free to express themselves. E.g. Telegram channels.
Today one of the channels posted on Pikabu, claiming that Russians killed those civilians in Kupiansk. I visited the channel and the rest of the day I feel sick. They do not hesitate to post EVERYTHING there. One posting called for genocide of the Russians and the cheering comments under it were all with nazi symbols, videos of tortured Russian POWs, calls for terrorism and other quite awful things.
You know, my question on seeing that was – where are all these investigative journalists, truth-tellers, Bellingcat after all?
Lots of such channels, I’ve seen many in the beginning and had to unfollow and stop visiting Telegram, because it was sickening. Feel sorry I visited today again.
I guess those who support Ukraine only get their info from state media. Nonetheless, younger people usually tend to get news from the Internet and it really is no trouble to copy-paste the word and visit the original source and to see with your own eyes whatever you wish to check.
Hi Tatyana, It is very difficult to follow videos etc in other languages for me – not good at languages. I looked at the Sevastapol ForPost which was quoting a lady with a blue hat – traffic warden? – who was saying there was communication between relatives across the border. Her view was that what was happening to Ukraine under the nazis and nato was horrible to many of the Ukrainian people. I agree with you about the obviously horrible comments on DW and in the western media which portrays Russians in very negative terms. They are getting information from the Ukrainian “government” and if foreign journalists dare to disagree they are put on the so called death list! Sadly, when the Russian/Donetsk military withdrew recently, the Ukraines inflicted reprisals on the remaining populations, then blame the deaths on Russia!
There is a good interview between Trish Wood – Canadian journalist who used to be on As It Happens in the eighties, – Douglas Macgregor,an American army type, and Eva Bartlett. It is on YouTube and in English. I haven’t found a way of getting videos in other languages to translate into English, but your English is so good you will understand the interview.
The cruelty of this whole thing disgusts me. The cruelty and propaganda is all western as far as I can see and I have to take time out from it for a few days – go finish the greenhouse, and walk in the woods. Greetings to the cats from my guys!
to be fair armageddon was being forecast decades before anyone in milton keynes had heard of zaporizhzhia oblast.
there is a very long list of geostrategic analysts and statespeople on record warning that nato expansion would ultimately end in nuclear war. it includes: mikhail gorbachev, stephen cohen, john mearsheimer, stephen walt, william burns, george kennan, jack matlock, henry kissinger, robert mcnamara, bill bradley, gary hart, william perry, jeffrey sachs, steven pifer, fiona hill, robert gates.
today their analysis is damned as anti-freedom putin propaganda. in late 2022 the respectable, moral and sane analysis is to demand further and deeper nato expansion.
Its taken months and finally Russia has been forced to adopt Nato tactics. You can’t say they didn’t try. I can’t see Ukrainian leadership and their handlers pulling back and stop shelling the nuclear power plant or Donetesk city centre. So expect another day of attacks on infrastructure once repairs have been completed. Ukraine reports eleven deaths. Ask Iraq !
People are always condemning whataboutary as if it’s inherently wrong whilst forgetting that the very essence of all our communications, of all our language, is nothing but a process or method or attempt to make sense of everything by comparing things.
(Unless we are some sort of enlightened being, genuinely able to occasionally perceive a thing for its very thingness, all we ever do is try to understand by referencing one thing against another.)
The charge of ‘whataboutary’ is used by Imperialist apologists to dismiss their own utter hypocrisy. The Yanks started doing it in the 1970s, I believe, and they (and their stooges) think it’s an automatic get-out-of-jail-free card for every wrong they have ever done and are doing.
Do as I say, not as I do. Just because I set a new Precedent (kosovo), that doesn’t mean you can. The people of Ukraine have been propogandised and lied to even more than ours in the Collective West, with the added menacing threat of the SBU Nazis knock on the door. They actually believed, like our Sun and Guardian readers, that Russia was losing this war. Yesterday was a shock. I really believe the plan in Nato is to keep this war going, at what ever financial cost and whatever the human cost to Ukraine. The war planners think Russia can’t sustain this bleeding ? We can set fires in many more countries on its borders. For Zelensky and his gang its not a problem to see his countrymen and once functioning state in ruins. I doubt he will stay in his bunker in Kiev till the bitter end. NATO not coming to rescue.
It’s absolutely disgraceful that we’re using Ukraine like this.
Back when this all started, I recall a delighted Hillary Clinton on the Rachel Maddow show. She enthused that Ukraine could be used as a “bullet” to strike Russia. Why didn’t Ukraine stop to wonder what a used bullet looks like? Not all shiny and in its original shape, that’s for sure.
Putin isn’t going to back down, that’s the one thing we can guarantee in this whole situation. He might accept a compromise – Russia has indicated for some time they’re ready for peace talks. It’s just Zelensky (encouraged by us) who insists that nothing less than total surrender and retreat by Russia is acceptable.
He might as well have said, no – we want war indefinitely. Obviously he doesn’t care if Ukraine is destroyed, and we don’t seem to care either – and all the while there’s an increasing risk of escalation into a nuclear conflict.
‘They actually believed, like our Sun and Guardian readers, that Russia was losing this war.’
?! Apparently thousands of Russians fleeing for the borders to avoid conscription into the ‘victorious special military operation’ also read the Sun.
Seen objectively, not through whatever ideological prism you’re using, there’s simply no way Russia can win a protracted war. To spend the same on defense as NATO, it would have to allocate half of its entire economic product to its war machine – an economy already shrinking and set to worsen radically into next year. Its conscripts have no idea what they’re fighting for. The only way out is to continue with the nuclear gambits (not working so far), bomb civilians Blitz-Chechnya style (already done earlier in the invasion: didn’t work then, certainly won’t work now) or negotiate. There are some recent signals that the latter is being contemplated by both the US and Russia. But I don’t see how Russia now prevents NATO parking up in Finland, Sweden and soon enough officially in Ukraine (minus whatever bits Russia gets to keep).
I despair of all the governments involved. We should be resolving the planet-wide environmental crisis, not channelling resources into weapons and ways to kill other people and destroy what has been built at the cost of finite resources.
ASC writes more nonsense through an “ideological prism” of their own that: “Seen objectively, not through whatever ideological prism you’re using, there’s simply no way Russia can win a protracted war. To spend …”
1. “objectively” Russia has far greater mineral, energy, sea and land area reserves than all of NATO collectively = why the ‘West’ has a pursued a well documented campaign since the USSR disintegrated, to topple Russia and steal its wealth of reserves.
2. NATO can “spend” all the money it wants, but if those resources do not exist in, or are under the control of NATO countries (see Taiwan for micro chips & Saudi for oil etc.) then NATO ceases to exist. Period. Even something as innocuous as Helium not being available (vital for chip manufacture and only available by distillation from natural gas) would topple NATO (and the modern world) in weeks.
3. “Russia […] an economy already shrinking and set to worsen radically into next year.” Every country that relies of fossils fuels (i.e. all 8 billion of us) is “shrinking” (re-newables, erm sorry net fossil fuel sinks won’t save us either).
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/the-decline-of-fossil-fuels-and-limits-of-renewable-energy/
4. Meanwhile no doubt you have a plan that “objectively” ‘adds up’ (see ‘Hot Air’ by David Mackay) for “resolving the planet-wide environmental crisis”?
Are these points objective enough for you ASC?
“To spend the same on defense as NATO, it would have to allocate half of its entire economic product to its war machine”
Expenditure has nothing to do with it. If I spend £100 buying two guns and you spend £200 buying one, I still have more guns than you, even though you have spent more. The net effect of the West’s procurement systems is to make munitions as expensive as possible. http://scragged.com/articles/yes-virginia-a-298-hammer-really-costs-our-government-100
If you’re going to accuse other commenters of posting ‘nonsense’* Natasha, it helps if you don’t follow it up with some yourself. No, Russia doesn’t have a ‘far greater’ land area than all of NATO collectively; it actually has a smaller area than just two of them combined (the US & Canada). In addition, the US alone has significantly greater proven reserves of both coal and oil than Russia, and also of many minerals such as copper & zinc – as well as having the world’s largest helium reserves (about 4 billion cubic metres).
No, the West hasn’t pursued a well-documented plan to topple Russia and steal its wealth of reserves; Russian companies invited Western companies like BP & Shell to form partnerships because they didn’t have the technology to extract the resources themselves. Neither NATO or the modern world would collapse in weeks if the supply of microchips dried up, and then, over months to years, the military and businesses would adapt.
* not least myself on the forum thread you linked to, which I need to get back to you about – been a bit busy lately, not least with one or two women who wouldn’t take no for an answer. Watch that space.
“If you’re going to accuse other commenters of posting ‘nonsense’* Natasha, it helps if you don’t follow it up with some yourself.”
Regardless of what Natasha said, what ASC posted about the war was still nonsense.
Not really sure how the finer details of the so-called referendum are relevant.
If France invaded the UK, flattened a couple of cities, murdered tens of thousands of UK citizens, then held a Scottish independence referendum at the point of a gun, a discussion of the finer points of the political allegiances of those forced to vote would hardly be appropriate.
How about concentrating on stopping the slaughter and bringing the murderers to justice first?
N:
“How about concentrating on stopping the slaughter and bringing the murderers to justice first?“
First – stop the slaughter. So you’re keen on meaningful peace negotiations – with ‘meaningful’ being the operative word?
Glenn, I’m very keen on Russia’s military crossing the border back into Russia.
Neil
If you are going to make a comparsion you cannot remove certain principles and fact.
For example:
If there were hundreds of thousands of french people living in the UK that had been subjected to warcrimes and shellings for years by UK government then french separatism/referendum would not come as a surprise.
Jack, hundreds of thousands? You’re saying that Ukraine slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians?
Evidence?
Your analogy is poor.
What if Ireland was shelling Unionist’s neighborhoods in Northern Ireland for years?
(This is not happening and yet many have problems with NI protocol and are weaponizing it). NI has privileged position and still not good.
What if it was happening?
Would Britain be under pressure to intervene by the English patriots?
Would the border be reinstated between Ireland and NI?
BTW how did you involve/connect French and Scottish? Sounds as intellectual dishonesty or a
Dislike of those two nation.
BTW Minsk Agreement was kind of Good Friday Agreement that No one cared about or
tried to implement and pressure Ukraine and ” Donbas” republics to honor and as a result
we are where we are. Russia did not approve of two “republics” joining RF for about 8 years
Referendums “under the gun” are never a good thing. But that’s what superpowers do. Remember Hawaian referendum (not so long ago) under the guns of the US Pacific Fleet?
Domb, no, I don’t recall the US invasion and annexation of Hawaii.
It wasn’t called Hawaii, then.
How do you justify Russia’s mass murder and rape? Because…. because… Hawaii.
The mental gymnastics on these pages is as astonishing as it is disgusting.
Why is me pulling you up when you once again display your lack of knowledge of history and your reluctance to do anything that might be considered research me trying to “justify Russia’s mass murder and rape?”, something which your laziness precludes you from producing a shred of evidence of any sort let alone anything credible.
Presumably you find mental gymnastics disgusting because your mind seldom leaves the couch, let alone takes any exercise.
This was George Michael over 30 years ago……
(Apparently, those who are paid to pretend they are the “security services” have learned nothing…..)
“These are the days of the open hand, they will not be the last
Look around now
These are the days of the beggars and the choosers
This is the year of the hungry man whose place is in the past
Hand in hand with ignorance and legitimate excuses
The rich declare themselves poor, and most of us are not sure
If we have too much, but we’ll take our chances
‘Cause God’s stopped keeping score
I guess somewhere along the way, he must have let us all out to play
Turned his back, and all God’s children crept out the back door
And it’s hard to love, there’s so much to hate
Hanging on to hope when there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above say it’s much, much too late
Well, maybe we should all be praying for time
These are the days of the empty hand, oh, you hold on to what you can
And charity is a coat you wear twice a year
This is the year of the guilty man, your television takes a stand
And you find that what was over there is over here
So you scream from behind your door
Say “What’s mine is mine and not yours
I may have too much, but I’ll take my chances
‘Cause God’s stopped keeping score.”
And you cling to the things they sold you
Did you cover your eyes when they told you
That he can’t come back
‘Cause he has no children to come back for?
It’s hard to love, there’s so much to hate
Hanging on to hope when there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above say it’s much too late
So, maybe we should all be praying for time”
I would ask the authors of the report and plan by The Rand Corporation, for regime change in Russia using Ukraine, how they think their war is progressing. I would like to send each member a list of all of the names of those killed and injured. Our corporate Journalists and MPs should also get copies of that list. Nato defence ministers are meeting. Options include, keep sending weapons, involve Nato directly or accept Russian terms.
Douglas Macgregor gives his panoramic view in an interview with ‘Trish Wood is Critical ‘ . A US army Colonel and former Presidential Defence advisor. He illustrates his talk with historical and contemporary truths that both inform and enlighten.
In another rare intervention Sir Tony Blair suggests Russia will win the war in Ukraine and emerge a much more powerful player in a new multipolar world.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-shows-wests-dominance-is-ending-china-rises-blair-says-2022-07-17/
Surprisingly Western media not trumpeting this particular rare intervention from the great man.
@Joel
Except Blair didn’t “suggest” that Russia will win the war in Ukraine.
In the article, written in July, he said “We are coming to the end of Western political and economic dominance,” and “The biggest geo-political change of this century will come from China not Russia.”
Both quite likely true. But not what you quote him as “suggesting”.
You’ve read what you’ve wanted into that article.
Blair is talking about China, not Russia. I would imagine like most people he expects Russia to be defeated in Ukraine and eclipsed by China. It’s implied that Russia (the USSR) was a superpower due to its possession of nuclear weapons: “China’s place as a superpower is natural and justified. It is not the Soviet Union.” By extension, he’s suggesting that Russia’s ‘place as a (former) superpower’ was artificial (merely due to its military threat to the world) and unjustified. When he talks about a ‘multipolar’ world, it’s not actually specified that he includes Russia as one of those poles. I don’t see how it can be. In global technological terms, it’s a dependency. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Talk of a ‘multipolar world’ seems to appeal mostly to people, like Blair or Putin, with an antagonistic and authoritarian mindset. Though on different sides, they’re quite happy with that bunker mentality. As are the world’s arms industries. Russia with its continent-spanning scale could play another far more co-operative role. Though not under its present authoritarian regime. Or maybe the ones that follow.
“like most people, he expects Russia to be defeated in Ukraine” – sorry, but you suffer from gigantomania. 85% of the world’s population is neutral, or supports Russia against the West. You need to take this into account. Let me remind you that the population of China and India separately exceeds the population of the West and the United States combined. Come back to earth dear friend.
Rosemary mentioned “… difficult to follow videos etc in other languages…”
So I brought a video in Russian with English subtitle
https://youtu.be/A6vtxqipmW4
for you, Rosemary and everyone else to know the latest news and opinions on Crimean Bridge, Ukrainian terrorism tactics, the role of Estonia and I wish Peter also saw it.
Peter, I recall we had a chat on the roles of London and Washington. If you are here by chance, pay attention to what Anatoly says about pretty perfect English accent. Also, recently an Ukrainian official Andrey Yermak was pranked. He was sure he speaks on the phone to US ex-ambassador McFaul. Yermak stated that US’s support of Ukraine amounts to 70% and British support is 100%.
All these bits of information here and there make me think that my opinion on people from the US and on the people from UK is generally true.
On those detained ukrainians coming into Russia from Estonia
in Bryansk, detained with explosives
https://ria.ru/20221012/zaderzhanie-1823284244.html
in Moscow, detained with anti aircraft weapons
https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/16024679
text in the articles easy to translate with Google, videos don’t need translation
—
It looks like we are watching another ISIS rising in place of Ukraine. Those were building an Islamic state, these are building a nazi state. Little difference in ideology and methods. Looks like funding source is the same.
” It looks like we are watching another ISIS rising in place of Ukraine. Those were building an Islamic state, these are building a nazi state. Little difference in ideology and methods. Looks like funding source is the same.”
That’s a collection of very serious claims, Tatyana.
I’d be very interested to see a structured argument to justify them.
A couple of videos don’t constitute an argument in my opinion.
John
@ John Kinsella
I think you’ve spent enough time on this site John to have seen copious evidence of the shocking extent and influence of the Nazism in Ukraine of which Tatyana speaks.
In case that has escaped your memory here is a kind of resume. Its concluding paragraphs state:
“The Soufan Center has compared the Azov Battalion’s international networking strategy to that of al-Qaeda and the Islamic State group. US and NATO support for the Azov Battalion poses similar risks as their support for al-Qaeda-linked groups in Syria 10 years ago. Those chickens quickly came home to roost, of course.
Right now, Ukrainians are united in their resistance to Russia’s invasion. But we should not be surprised when the Western alliance with extreme right-wing proxy forces in Ukraine, including the infusion of billions of dollars in sophisticated weapons, results in similarly violent and destructive blowback.”
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/medea-benjamin-nicolas-js-davies-ukraine-war-russia-ukranian-neo-nazi-fascists-azov-battalion-89292/
A simple Google search will provide you with mountains more evidence.
Here’s a photo-essay from the Guardian for instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/ultranationalism-in-ukraine-a-photo-essay
I hope you realise that, like the BBC, by continuing to deny the extent of Nazism in Ukraine you are in fact an apologist for, and thereby a supporter of, Nazis in Ukraine.
Not a good place to be, quite a shameful one in fact.
8 years ago BBC Newsnight reported
https://youtu.be/5SBo0akeDMY
I bookmarked it for you, John. The meaning of 1488 is explained. Or, was it Jimmeh who didn’t know?
Interesting that people say ‘Ukraine uber alles’, ‘one state, one nation’, ‘Ukraine for Ukrainians’; honour nazis, wear nazi symbols and at the same time don’t consider themselves nazis, but prefer ‘fighters for freedom’.
And US pays for this people to come to power and to have best weapons
https://youtu.be/mlh6gJmmlN8
Support them and bring them to power, and f*ck the EU
https://youtu.be/HKs_1-Dqch0
In the 2019 elections far-right parties in Ukraine won just 2% of the vote which is less than many other European countries. In France they hold 89 seats in parliament and they’ve just taken power in Italy.
If Putin is really eager to combat neo-Nazis he’d ought to start in his own backyard before interfering in other country’s affairs.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/putin-nazi-pretext-russia-war-ukraine-belied-white-supremacy-ties-rcna23043
French members of Parliament do not come to an orphanage to give a child a “Slave Master” badge, and I haven’t seen annual parades in honor of the SS Charlemagne in Paris.
Pears Morgaine, the authors of the link you give expose them as naked propagandist, utterly failing to offer a shed of evidence that Ukraine is NOT run by Nazis : “Ali Soufan, former FBI counterterrorism agent, and Amb. Nathan Sales, former acting U.S. undersecretary of state for civilian security, democracy and human rights”.
Try reading these articles for some real information:
https://www.voltairenet.org/article216406.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.voltairenet.org%2F+nazi&ia=web
Oh look, here comes another Nazi apologist and mouthpiece for Pentagon propaganda feigning ignorance of what’s actually happening on the ground in Ukraine. Not for the first time the ever so well informed Pears Morgaine requires correcting on his/her denial of the extent and role of Nazism in Ukraine
@ Pears Morgaine
As, as always, I’m sure you’re very well aware Pears, Nazis don’t care about ballots when they are promoted straight into high positions in government, regardless of their electoral standing, by a coup regime as their reward for helping the US overthrow the democratically elected government in Ukraine.
Several neo-Nazis/fascists/ultra-nationalists, call them what you will, did exactly that.
How else could they institute anti-Russian legislation including a ban on Russian culture and history and use of the Russian language? How else could they carry out a mass-murder of over forty ethnically Russian Ukrainians in Odessa and not even face prosecution? How else could they then institute a civil war against ethnic Russians when East Ukrainians sought greater autonomy as protection from their sick regime leading to the deaths of some 15,000 people of which about a third were civilians.
Do you have any evidence of such as this in France?
Nazis don’t give a stuff about your 2%.
They’re especially not interested in ballots when they have a plentiful supply of bullets, not to mention explosives and shoulder-mounted missiles.
I suggest you read the article I linked to.
The redoubtable Max Blumenthal gives a run-down to Jimmy Dore back in March:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfaAyiP8Wuc
” utterly failing to offer a shed of evidence that Ukraine is NOT run by Nazis “
Ah yes ‘you cannot disprove it so therefore it must be true’! Orbiting teapot time again.
” How else could they institute anti-Russian legislation including a ban on Russian culture and history and use of the Russian language? “
None of that is true.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/08/sergey-lavrov/russian-has-not-been-banned-ukraine-despite-repeat/
” How else could they carry out a mass-murder of over forty ethnically Russian Ukrainians in Odessa and not even face prosecution? “
If you’re referring to the fire in the Trade Union building video evidence clearly shows it started on the third floor and was caused by somebody trying to throw a petrol bomb out onto the people below. Gunfire was also reported coming from the building.
” How else could they then institute a civil war against ethnic Russians when East Ukrainians sought greater autonomy as protection from their sick regime leading to the deaths of some 15,000 people of which about a third were civilians. “
A civil war started by separatists armed and trained by Russia, half the combat casualties were Ukrainian.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html
Russian language banned:
“In April 2019, the Ukrainian parliament voted a new law, the Law of Ukraine “to ensure the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language”. On 16 June 2019, the law entered into force. The law made the use of Ukrainian compulsory (totally or within certain quotas) in the work of some public authorities, in the electoral procedures and political campaigning, in pre-school, school and university education, in scientific, cultural and sporting activities, in book publishing and book distribution, in printed mass media, television and radio broadcasting, in economic and social life (commercial advertising, public events), in hospitals and nursing homes, and in the activities of political parties and other legal entities (e.g. non-governmental organizations) registered in Ukraine. Some special exemptions are provided for the Crimean Tatar language, other languages of indigenous peoples of Ukraine, the English language and the other official languages of the European Union; as languages of minorities that are not EU official languages, Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish are excluded from the exemptions. …
All cultural, artistic, recreational and entertainment events must be in Ukrainian, unless the use of other languages is justified for artistic reasons or for the purpose of protecting ethnic minority languages. All schools and universities are required to teach in Ukrainian, although special exemptions apply to certain ethnic minority languages, to English and to other official languages of the European Union.
Contrary to the minority languages which are EU official languages, Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish are granted no exemption for the purposes of the law.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine
Andriy Parubiy had the responsibility of signing this into law.
Yes, the same Andriy Parubiy with a long history of Nazi and Russophobic affiliations.
2014 Odessa Trade Union building massacre:
“Some 1,000 Ukrainian rightists, led by the notorious Right Sector, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa last Friday, killing 39 pro-Russia demonstrators in the building.”
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/ukrainian-rightists-burn-alive-39-at-odessa-union-building/
“Two days later, Right Sector, a heavily armed neo-fascist organisation that played a key role in overthrowing Yanukovych, published on its website a statement celebrating the killing of anti-Maidan activists in Odessa as “yet another bright page in our fatherland’s history.””
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/01/19/odes-j16.html
48 people died in the the Trade Union Hall, 46 of them were pro-Eastern Ukraine demonstrators. Kyiv is yet to put anyone on trial.
Really? You want to suggest they killed themselves?
Really? You want to defend all of the above?
By your associations shall ye be known.
@ Tatyana (October 13, 2022 at 09:06)
Yes, I recall the exchange.
Further to Anatoly’s comments Kit Klarenberg at the Grayzone has reported on evidence that links British Intelligence to the blowing up of the bridge.
You can see his article here: https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/
And a video interview with him here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKaq_gNr0uE
There are increasing reports of the UK’s leading, pro-active involvement in Ukraine but all appear to be under the auspices of the US.
I think in our previous exchange you referred to the UK as the US’s Sub-Lieutenant or something similar. I can’t remember the exact words you used but that seems to me, from the information I have so far, to be the best description of the UK’s role.
🙂 I used Google Translate tool then and it suggested ‘viceroy’ if I remember it right.
” Plausible Deniability ” will in my judgement speculation lead to catastrophe. The US has allies that are very keen to show how good their ” Special Forces ” are. We in UK have a tradition and history of covert actions celebrated with films and actually composed classical music. ” The Dam Busters “. We celebrated the bouncing bombs delivered by Lancaster bombers to destroy Dams in WW2. The Royal Navy of the Nelson era would hang Captains that held back from very risky and dangerous attacks. Our SAS has a reputation that even US Special Forces acknowledge. My point is, that as a small military power, wholly dependent on US for our not independent nuclear deterent submarine force, we always demonstrate our ” worth ” to US by using our SAS or gung ho Navy Captains to carry out lethal covert operations. Our actions in Libya, Syria and now very dangerously in Ukraine could very quickly backfire. Russia is not Afghanistan Iraq Syria or Libya, and can hit back. I was very disturbed to hear Colonel Douglas Macgregor say yesterday that ” open sourse ” reports say our SAS was involved in the Bridge attack. This is all going one way, a road to direct war with Russia which we initiated and we can’t pull back from.
Tatyana,
I think Victoria Nuland better fulfils the role of Viceroy – basically Governor-General of Ukraine – someone who runs the country for an external power.
Sub-Lieutenant works for me.
Tatyana, interested to know why, when Russia blows up children’s cancer doctors and pregnant women and theatres full of sheltering civilians that’s not terrorism, but when Ukraine blows up a bridge, it is.
Neil. We in the Collective West control the use of language and the meaning of words. ” Anti Semitism ” Terrorism “. We demonise Russia and Russians, as we demonise Arabs and Muslims. In your piece above you just repeat the narrative which manufactures consent among our own populations that Russia deliberately kills pregnant women and cancer doctors in Ukraine. The vast majority of our populations are fed this propoganda 24/7 by our media to justify our foreign policy. Our sanctions on Iraq killed 500,000 children, a price worth paying according to Madeline Albright. Our military “interventions” since WW2 total over 200. The propoganda war is waged by our elites on us, and its won hands down. Yet on the killing fields of Ukraine that we initiated and fuel to regime change Russia, Ukrainian conscripts are dying in numbers that our media are not reporting. After we leave Ukraine, we will no doubt push for Taiwan to bleed China. If we don’t set fire to Poland and Belarus by then. War is all we are good at.
” on the killing fields of Ukraine that we initiated ”
Odd, I thought it was Russia who invaded.
NATO Secretary General Stoltenburg let it slip, the mask that is, by declaring, a defeat for Ukraine is a defeat for NATO and cannot be allowed. So the war must go on no matter how many Ukrainians perish. The Ukrainians voted for the ” peace with Russia “candidate !? Instead they were invaded by US Nato and Zelensky was taken over by extreme neo Nazis. The head of Ukrainian Forces has a Swastika on his watch bracelet. No doubt After Stoltenburg finishes his tour of duty leaving Ukraine in ruins, he will be appointed Head of the Norwegian Central Bank and proceed to destroy their huge sovereign wealth fund by ” investing ” it in US Treasuries under his handlers orders. China and Japan can’t dump their investments quick enough. Saudi Arabia to follow ? Regime change there no doubt also.
Wikikettle, you make the point that “The head of Ukrainian Forces has a Swastika on his watch bracelet.” as an illustration that Zelensky’s government has been taken over by Nazis. Somebody else here offered a link about that before, and the single photograph showing the (alleged) Nazi image is very blurry and taken from a considerable distance. The photo has been circulating widely, so it’s not surprising some people decided to examine the matter more closely. France 24 gave a presentation about it:
https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20221012-we-take-a-look-at-the-ukrainian-commander-in-chief-s-swastika-bracelet
View that clip and then let us know whether you’re still confident it was really a swastika on the bracelet. If so, you can see the same bracelet from other angles here:
https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2022/10/fact-check-ukrainian-generals-bracelet-does-not-feature-swastika-its-a-motif-called-solomons-knot.html
That’s not to invalidate everything else you said; just that it’s better to rest such strong claims on firmer evidence than squinty photographs.
Dawg. I agree. Jimmy Dore Show featured a Zelensky body guard with a Nazi badge. Our governments know who the people behind Zelensky are. They are a minority, yet their hero Bandera is celebrated and they believe in dehumanising Slavs as sub human.
” on the killing fields of Ukraine that we initiated ”
Odd, I thought it was Russia who invaded.”
If the dictionary you are using suggests that “invaded” is a synonym for “initiated “, you need to invest in a better one.
Wikikettle,
I’m afraid soon many in Europe will see ultra-nationalism and social nationalism as a new norm. And, soon your governments will secretly recruit Ukrainian ultra-right groups to suppress dissenting voices.
As to the ancient runic symbols, one may wonder how does an Ukrainian general relates to Vikings, or, is there some relation to Yarosh the leader of Right Sector, who once claimed he was appointed general Zaluzhny’s advisor.
I’m sure that the Western media also spread fakes about Russia, as if we are aiming at civilian objects in Ukraine. Anatoly Shariy says, that under the pedestrian bridge (Klitchko bridge) there is an EU mission to coordinate the supply of weapons from Europe to Ukraine.
https://www.euam-ukraine.eu/
And the ruined kids playground is located in front of the building that is the headquarters and training center of the Brotherhood Battalion of the infamous Dmytro Korchinsky, one of the Ukrainian Nazi ideologists.
https://www.bratstvo.com.ua
due to the information war, I do not have access to entire segments of the Internet and most Western social networks, so I cannot check these addresses on interactive maps at the moment.
Meanwhile new prank ‘talks’ published, this time Kuleba, Ukrainian foreign minister, boasting they are behind explosions in Belgorod and Crimea.
—
Folks, we can argue a lot on what is legal / illegal, but Ukraine in its current form, I mean the after-Maidan regime, is a threat to its neighbour Russia, and to ethnic Russians inside and outside of Ukraine.
Re. my prediction on ultra-right in Europe. Illustration. What is being discussed today in Russian social networks
https://audiovisual.ec.europa.eu/en/video/I-231375
Text version
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/european-diplomatic-academy-opening-remarks-high-representative-josep-borrell-inauguration_en
Chief diplomat of EU says ‘Europe is a garden… Most of the rest of the world is a jungle, and the jungle could invade the garden…’ he also says ‘gardeners should take care of it’ and also says ‘high walls in order to prevent the jungle from coming in is not going to be a solution’.
Mr. Borell, of course, makes some nice demagogue after these words, but I’m sure that people start making very far-right pictures in their imagination.
the Russians are wondering is it that Europeans realized that jungle shoots have appeared in the garden and now it’s time to weed them out.
Mr. Borrel’s words about telling ‘truth, but not all of he truth’ and ‘you have to tell all the truth – but we will do it later’ – any ideas on the meaning? I’m afraid my knowledge of English is not good enough to understand.
Wikikettle, what clever words you write. How do they make Russia’s murder of child cancer doctors, pregnant women, civilians sheltering in theatres etc ok? A straight answer, without reference to murders by Americans in other wars (which if you asked me to, I would readily condemn) would be appreciated.
Wikikettle, why am i not surprised at you not giving a straight answer?
If I blew up your family and some idiots tried to justify it by bleating, “yeah, but America…”, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be impressed.
But hey, it’s not your wife or children being blown apart, so carry on with the pseudo-intellectual wittering.
“when Russia blows up children’s cancer doctors and pregnant women and theatres full of sheltering civilians that’s not terrorism,”
Don’t you mean “if”, not “when”? If Russia blows up children’s cancer doctors and pregnant women and theatres full of sheltering civilians it would indeed be terrorism, but they’ve got to do it first.
Alkida and ISIS fighters now being paid by US tax payers to fight in Ukraine. Discuss….
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/y13y64/yesterday_a_russian_missile_killed_oksana/
Do you live with your head in the sand or are you doing this deliberately?
Something else for Putin’s Useful Idiots to go into denial about.
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/10/14/Russia-s-forces-use-rape-in-Ukraine-as-part-of-military-strategy-UN-envoy
Bayard, yeah, sure, and the sky is green and grass is blue.
It would probably be worth showing the other side as well, wouldn’t it, Pears?
This special sort of “democracy” that the US supported on the Maidan. Implemented. How do you like voting in the presence of neo-Nazis, under the Nazi salute?
Speech by Oleksandr Muzychko in the session hall of РОДА – YouTube, 4m 21s
Oh, you don’t like it? You oppose the new power? Then you get it, sanctioned terrorism.
Attack on Crimean buses and shooting of Crimeans near Korsun – YouTube, 18m 45s
You still don’t enjoy your new government? Some more sanctioned terrorism for you then. Odessa, Trade Union building. I’m sure you remember the event, it’s not worth posting the video again.
I better add Mr. Murray’s favorite in the race, the Crimean Tatars. Here are the pro-Kiev activists, who blew up the power lines and didn’t allow it be restored.
The conflict on the blockade of Crimea: power lines of discord – YouTube, 2m 43s
And now mass graves with decapitated bodies are being dug up in the Donbass territories.
Journalist George Eliason in Donbass since 2014 – YouTube, 3m 53s
Legalized state terrorism, ethnic cleansing, genocide.
So I find ‘crocodile tears’ an appropriate phrase to describe your attempts, Pears. Here in Russia we have the equivalent phrase ‘а нас за що?’
By the way, the phrase is in Ukrainian. Wonderful language, colorful. I especially liked how Melania Podolyak used it. You may probably have seen that story in Twitter, Musk suggested some peaceful solution for the conflict. Mrs. Podolyak replied: “your job is to give us Starlink and shut the fuck up.” I assure you, in the original it sounds just amazing. Someone screenshoted it and shared on Pikabu
https://pikabu.ru/story/kompaniya_ilona_maska_sobiraetsya_prekratit_besplatnoe_obespechenie_svyazi_v_ukraine_cherez_starlink_9552329?cid=252773332
I could make a detailed linguistic analysis of the ‘stupid thing’ and ‘beware of fucking telling too fucking much, or Zelensky will nationalize your Tesla’. But looks like Ambassador Melnyk summed it up with pretty short ‘fuck off’. I really feel I have nothing to add to this Fucking Diplomacy or to the list of Useful Idiots:-).
Wow, Elon Musk is on the kill list now!
Next to Roger Waters.
And to late Daria Dugina, destroyed by explosion.
The New Atlas: Ukraine Targets Elon Musk, US Aid Dwindles, Ukraine’s Offensive Increasingly Depleted – YouTube, 35m 48s
The image of Ukraine as an innocent victim, that you are pushing so hard here, is simply not true.
Musk was only on the Myrotvorets list for 15 minutes; more’s the pity. Pity they didn’t add Mark Zuckerberg to it as well.
Myrotvorets is entirely unofficial although the Ukrainian authorities have declined to take any action against it.
Ukraine might not be entirely innocent but it doesn’t deserve to have this terrible war thrust upon it. Russian forces are committing their own atrocities and now I read that the Red Cross are being denied access to Ukrainian PoWs. What is Russia so keen to hide?
15 minutes you say? Well, I should admit 15 minutes on the kill list is quite enough to make Elon again ‘to give them Starlink and shut fucking up’ (c) Melanya Podolyak
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1581345747777179651
Effective, eh?
“Do you live with your head in the sand, or are you doing this deliberately?”
I’m struggling to work out why you think a random post from Reddit is in any way something that I, or anyone else that isn’t blind, biased or credulous is going to believe. So, no, I don’t live with my head in the sand, which is why I am sceptical of anything like what you linked to, but please don’t take it personally, it’s not just you.
“Something else for Putin’s Useful Idiots to go into denial about.”
Funny how disbelieving stories critical of Ukraine is sensible scepticism, but disbelieving stories critical of Russia is “going into denial “. Still, I suppose that’s how Zelensky’s Useful Idiots roll.
“Bayard, yeah, sure, and the sky is green and grass is blue.”
I think you need to adjust the colour settings on your monitor, or, gasp, have a look outside.
Ok, here’s my theory.
Putin is not some noble, great-souled saint who only wants to right the world’s wrongs and bring to justice the Jewish Nazi who has enslaved Russia’s Ukrainian brothers. He’s just a petty-minded crook, desperate to make himself feel big on the world stage, probably increasingly so as he feels his physical vitality deteriorate with old age and ill health. He probably can’t get it up like he used to, but controlling armies and starting wars feels like a good substitute in terms of thrills. Never mind that hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent Ukrainians and Russian minions have to suffer horrific deaths, mutilations and hardships as a result. He doesn’t give a shit. He personally doesn’t have to suffer one iota of hardship or the slightest inconvenience, but on the contrary can continue eating caviar and drinking fine wine and shopping for astoundingly expensive suits and jackets and shiny shoes while raining death on faceless, nameless men, women and children hundreds of miles away.
In short, like every other war mongering bastard in history, he is driven solely by vanity and a delusional sense of self importance and only carries out the atrocities he does because he can do so while safely hiding away in his palace like the coward he is.
That’s what I think of him as a human being. Spitting on his corpse would be showing too much respect. As for those of you on these boards seeking to justify his mass murder with “yeah, but America …”, I don’t think much better of you.
But hey, what do I know? Maybe he is some kind of compassionate saint. Yeah, that seems far more likely…
And here’s my observation: people are trying to win arguments by demonising the opposition, with the positions becoming polarised to absurdity. What’s the point in suggesting that other commenters think their leaders are saintly? A ridiculous notion like that will only provoke further retorts, and links to more videos and news reports and articles, much of it consisting of one-sided propaganda.
This Manichean mud-flinging is getting nowhere, and it’s edging out sober discussion of the political factors that have driven nations to war and which continue to preclude a peace deal.
Life is largely shades of grey.
Biden is a pale grey, Trump a dark and Putin near black.
The latter due to the 100’s of thousands of totally needless deaths that he has caused – motivated by his narcissistic self regard.
John, re shades of grey, its interesting that the putin cheerleaders here keep defending Putin by pointing to misdeeds by the West, while never acknowledging the illogicality of such an argument, ie, if the West engaging in illegal imperialist wars proves the West is evil, surely it does the same re Putin. Their argument seems instead to be, Fred West can’t be bad because … Jeffrey Dahmer!
Even if you were to blindly accept the lie that Ukraine murdered 20,000 innocent donbas residents over a period of ten years, then the argument that these killings were a bad thing, therefore Putin killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians in response is somehow a good thing, is really a non starter.
Dawg,
“What’s the point in suggesting that other commenters think their leaders are saintly?”
Every single putin cheerleader on these boards has claimed that Putin’s sole motivation for invading Ukraine is his desire to protect the poor residents of donbas from the evil nazi regime. Not once have they ascribed anything other than saintly compassion, courage and noble sentiments behind his actions.
As for a sober discussion, I believe Putin is a tawdry little man motivated by vanity, obsession with power and psychopathic lack of empathy towards fellow humans. You may think this truth is beneath your desire to appear more nuanced and sophisticated in your framing of the discussion, but for one thing, I think such an framing pays too much respect to such a tawdry excuse for a human being, and for another, your desire for a more intellectual discussion of the finer political nuances doesn’t make my description any less accurate.
Clare Daly gives a brave speech in the “European Parliament” saying the Hypocrisy of the EU sending weapons to Ukraine and not to Palestine. EU’s Borel call Europe “a Garden surrounded by a Jungle”. I wonder how countries in the Global South, Latin America, Africa and Asia will view that description of them. The very countries that have supplied energy and commodities to the Collective West and fueled our wealth. “The times they are a changing…” me thinks.
We in the Collective West are very, very angry. Our way of life, the car, the supermarket shopping trolley full of wonderful foods from all over the world, electricity and water taken for granted. The Golden Billion as we are called have lived off “Them”. We were till now omnipotent and ruled over them, controlling their resources. When there was a risk that one of them would object, we would Regime Change or Invade. Our Hubris knows no bounds, for we were born to rule over them. This superiority, this domination was God given ?! The savages needed to be conquered, and were. As I said previously, it’s in the Killing fields of Ukraine that we are meeting our very own Waterloo. The coming battle of Kherson will be the Ukrainian leadership’s last fling battle of Kursk in WW2. A disaster for Ukraine and a victory for no one.
I love that woman, and her brave friend mick Wallace (although I don’t find the latter anything like as attractive).
Whataboutery again.
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness.
Or do some here really prefer that the Putin regime destroy Ukraine?
So that the the British state is weakened?
So that Scotland may be free?
So that Ireland may be united?
All the above good btw.
Or just so that some bitter auld tankies can indulge their fantasies?
Wallace is a *cough* compromised figure in Ireland and Clare Daly (for whom I have some regard) seems to have been swept into his slipstream.
A pity.
Wikikettle, maybe you’re angry about having some luxuries taken from you. Speak for yourself. I’m angry to see a coward butcher innocent people, both Ukrainian and Russian (I see the Russian boys whose lives Putin is throwing away to help himself get a hard on as innocent too in this affair).
As for your other comments and those of all the other Putin cheerleaders, it’s always just whataboutery. That’s all you have. I’ll say it again. If you think imperialist wars waged by lying scumbags in the West are bad, then for just one second, stop the misdirection, turn your gaze towards Moscow, and show some consistency by condemning the exact same behaviour by another lying, murderous scumbag. If you can’t do that, then you have nothing to complain about.
Thanks Dawg, for that succinct summing up, shame it was ignored by the usual suspects. Sadly, dualism rules and if you are not with us you must be with the enemy. I suppose taking such an attitude saves actually having to do any thinking.Opinions can be got ready-formed from the media and rehashed on here without having to engage more than a few braincells.
John Kinsella. I put my arms up and surrender ! You have won the propoganda war with flying colours. All those media students, all that funding, all the censorship of criticism, you won, hands down. If only all those resources were directed at putting our own house, democracy and industry in order. How many Billions of printed money spent on war in Ukraine ? Bond market about to collapse. Have you bought gold ?
Pandemonium in Germany. Orban gives a talk in Berlin and there is apoplexy…..hit pieces on Clare and Mick are rattled out by the corporate media. Good publicity for her.
But but I thought that you had surrendered?
Damn but you caught me there…
I did however get Musk on my side John. He proposed Minsk agreements and got put on the Putin shill and Ukraine kill list for a wee while. That after funding starlink for Ukraine army communications to the tune of millions. I guess he didn’t have much choice faced with Russia shutting down his heavenly orbits,
Tell us more please about the Ukrainian “kill list”?
Have pro Putin journos been murdered by Ukrainian killers?
Thanks again…
Musk is taking the piss, pulling a fast one. He could afford to fund Starlink for Ukraine but he knows how important it is and for that reason the US government will have to cough up instead.
Stenin, Voloshin, Oles Busina, Sheremet – the names that come to mind. When? After Maidan. By whom? The question is to be addressed to after-Maidan Ukrainian authorities.
Musk is backing down. He’s just a good boy, a very, very good boy. He was unequivocally commanded ‘to the heel’. He is not as naive as the late Ashley Babbitt. What kind of idiot would risk his business for a bunch of jungle savages, as Mr. Borell aptly put it. The cheering from the couch is more than enough to keep the gladiator show for the rich gentlemen going on, isn’t it?
Musk backed down, though never physically threatened. Lucky he’s not Ukrainian. Yuriy Kerpatenko, principal conductor of Kherson’s Mykola Kulish Music and Drama Theatre, murdered today by Russian troops for refusing to take part in a propaganda concert. How charming these Russian liberators are.
Actually happened a couple of days ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/16/russian-troops-kill-ukrainian-musician-yuriy-kerpatenko-for-refusing-role-in-kherson-concert
I wonder how the Putinbots here are going to deal with it if it does turn out to be true. Try and pretend it never happened, a ‘false flag’ by Ukraine or ‘he was a Nazi and deserved it’.
Re: [Pears Morgaine October 14, 2022 at 20:35] abuse of “rape” statistics.
Here’s one for Zelensky’s “useful idiots” to “go into denial about”, or perhaps we should dismiss Zelensky’s “cheerleaders” as mere ‘Zelenskybots’?
A quick 30 second internet search reveals that in fact BOTH sides appear to have been using “rape” as a military strategy: on 29 June 2022 the UN reported 19 cases of “rape” by Ukrainian forces:-
“D. CONFLICT-RELATED SEXUAL VIOLENCE 98. […] The alleged perpetrators were from the ranks of Russian armed forces in 87 cases; from the ranks of Russian-affiliated armed groups in 2 cases; from the ranks of Ukrainian armed forces, including territorial defence, in 9 cases and law enforcement in 1 case; and from civilians or unidentified actors in Government-controlled territory in 7 cases and in territory controlled by Russian armed forces in 2 cases. […]”
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/ua/2022-06-29/2022-06-UkraineArmedAttack-EN.pdf
It is thus repugnant to abuse the fact of “rape” in war when media reports disingenuously fail by omission to honestly report “rape” by the Ukrainian side too, giving a false impression that only the Russians “rape”.
Further, to use sexual violence as a tool to support one side or the other when both sides appear to be guilty appears to amount to deliberate, deeply misinformed manipulative one sided propaganda.
Well thank you for the link. At least now the useful idiots here won’t be able to deny that it’s happening. We have an expression in this country that ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’. The fact that Ukrainian forces have committed acts of rape doesn’t lessen the guilt of Russian forces who according to the OHCHR report you kindly quoted are outdoing the Ukrainians ten to one.
” Women and girls constituted the majority of alleged victims. Out of all allegations received, 59 allegedly occurred in the Kyiv region where Russian armed forces were stationed. Rape, including gang rape, against civilian women was allegedly the most common form of CRSV committed by Russian armed forces. It was often accompanied by other human rights violations, such as wilful killings of victims or their husbands, physical violence, or looting of their homes. In 18 cases victims were allegedly killed or died after being raped. For example, a man in the Chernihiv region reported that he discovered the body of an elderly woman, half naked with blood around her genitals. “
Gives the lie to the Russians not having committed any atrocities whilst they occupied the areas around Kyiv too.
Funny. The main source from Ukraine on this issue was the Ombudsman Lyudmila Denisova, who participated in numerous briefings where she described numerous rapes by the Russian military. She was dismissed from her post, because, according to the deputies of the Rada, firstly, she was not engaged in her main duties, namely, the creation of humanitarian corridors, the exchange of prisoners of war, the protection of civilians. Secondly, she could not document her lies about rapes, (I quote Ukrainian deputies) “The incomprehensible concentration of the ombudsman’s media work on numerous details of “sexual crimes committed in an unnatural way” and “rape of children” in the occupied territories, which she could not confirm with evidence, only harmed Ukraine and distracted the attention of the world media from the real ones needs of Ukraine” – Deputy Chairman of the Regulatory Committee of the Rada Pavel Frolov.
To understand who is who in Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_og5i17W_po&t=340s – Mariupol. People came to the spring to collect water, the APU fired at them, several people were killed. Russian troops had not yet entered the city at that time. Shootings of civilians were everywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQVDqhjTg_c&t=3s – how the authorities deliberately did not evacuate Mariupol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5MShLYPVT4 – stories of Mariupol residents. There is a lot of indignation against the government and the armed forces of Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6ft-G26bjU&t=485s – what happened at the beginning of the SVO, including in the Kiev region. The GBR (State Bureau of Investigation of Ukraine) conducts a number of cases on the actions of the SBU (Security Service of Ukraine). Mass murders, robberies committed by SBU officers against citizens of Ukraine. All crimes were attributed to the DRG of the armed forces of Russia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWzTnOp6_kI – rape and subsequent killing of civilians.
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that almost everyone in these videos – civilians, military personnel – speak Russian.
“https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/16/russian-troops-kill-ukrainian-musician-yuriy-kerpatenko-for-refusing-role-in-kherson-concert
“if it turns out to be true.” Exactly – “if”. And if it doesn’t turn out to be true? has the guardian apologized for lying? Has this ever happened?
Natasha, you really didn’t think that one through, did you…
One square meter of wood priced at €350 In Italy reported by Alex Christoforou also of The Duran. Bag of coal in Uk has more than doubled in price. Trying to destroy Russia economically and Militarily has failed. We have however won the propaganda war waged at our own populations. In UK we have the Blitz spirit and just carry on. Peter Oborne has a devastating piece on Liz Truss, The Tory Party and “Think Tanks” on Double Down News.
A cubic metre ?
If so between half a tonne and a tonne of dry wood.
https://matmatch.com/learn/property/density-of-wood
Lotsa kilowatt hours/ therms there..
Not bad for €350…
Are you funny?
You are right it is sold by m3 but having said that it is not “netto” M3. It is pieces of a tree put next to and above each other.
Let’s not forget wood burner stoves were made illegal in London just last year.
Smog police are going to be busy for next 6 months. Parks will become de-treed.
Any wooden material in skips or not, no matter how toxic, will make the City into an asthmatic’s nightmare.
All because we don’t want cheap gas for some strange reason. Which makes billions in extra profits for our largely foreign-owned energy companies. Slaver slaver.
I love the smell of toxic bullshit in the morning, noon and night. If only troll shit burnt as well, we’d be quids in.
Cough (as it were). Another poster was concerned about the price of timber in Italy – presumably for heating but hoo nose (sic)?
Wood burners were not made illegal. New ones have to be DEFRA-approved designs though.
Firewood was going up in price before the invasion because stupid biofuel power stations are buying it all up. At 5 kWh-per-kg half a tonne will provide 2,500 kWh at 14p per kWh.
Firewood should be kiln dried or left to season for at least a year, preferably two, before burning.
GF and I just had a cosy evening in front of my open fire and, as I felled the wood myself in 2020,r it didn’t cost anything (baring fuel for the chain saw).
“Firewood was going up in price before the invasion because stupid biofuel power stations are buying it all up.”
Power stations don’t burn firewood, they burn wood pellets. Yes, if you have the type of wood-fired boiler that burns wood pellets, you will find that your fuel will be very expensive, if you can get it at all. This has no effect on the price of firewood.
Yes she rather shot herself in the foot… just like many other Russians desperate to avoid being conscripted into the army.
I hoped my carefully crafted language and quoted numbers would alert readers to the possibility – before impul$e pumping their key£oard$ – that I may have thought this one through. A simple enough task: committing just one rape makes you a rapist, no excuses.
Arguing about who’s raped more than others to apportion which country’s forces should be condemned for sexual violence in a war or peace is repulsive as it adds insult by smugly and disingenuously obscuring the real injury caused to each and every single survivor of rape and sexual abuse.
But ker-plunk! The Zelensky-bots – @Pears Morgaine and @Neil – fall into the trap!
Let me explain.
First, @Pears Morgaine proposes that “Russian forces [are] outdoing the Ukrainians ten to one” – however basic maths on the data I quoted: 89/19 = 21.3% gives less than a five to one ratio i.e half as bad as a “ten to one” ratio.
Second, “Sexual violence is still very prevalent in the UK. It is estimated that approximately 700,000 people aged 16 to 59 years were victims of a sexual assault in the last year (2017/18). It is estimated that only 1 in 5 survivors will ever report what happened to them to the police. Part of the reason why survivors do not report is due to a number of widely upheld rape myths and stereotypes.”
https://www.thesurvivorstrust.org/about-sexual-violence
Thus @Pears Morgaine (and presumably @Neil who hasn’t articulated anything other than witle$$ $arca$m: “you really didn’t think that one through, did you…”) compounds the basic maths error by:-
a) conveniently overlooking the fact that there’s at least a 5 to 1 under-reporting bias in a non war context, which in the middle of the chaos of war is bound to result in even less reporting, and then;
b) smugly arguing that if country A rapes twice, then county B’s single rape is therefore OK, thereby;
c) invalidating that from the victim’s point of view – informed by their own personal experience – ALL sexual violence is equally obscene and damaging.
Perhaps such detestable calculations are partly why only 1 in 5 come forwards to report being raped in the UK?
So why do the Zelens£y-bot$ argue such one sided ignorant repugnance? Is rape qualitatively different when done quantitatively differently by Russian forces compared to Ukrainian forces? If so, then it must follow that @Pears Morgaine and presumably @Neil are in fact arguing here on Craig Murray’s blog that sexual violence victims are less worse off being raped by Ukrainians, since lower numbers of victims have so far come forwards to report their ordeals to the authorities, no?
To argue that ‘not all rapes are equal’ in this selfish causal way is a shamefully repellent position to adopt.
Third, the UN report I linked to only has data up to May 2022, so the number of sexual violence cases reported and assigned to the two sides before the end of this war may well change. What will the Zelens£y-bot$ argue if their relative ratios ‘game’ tips the other way, as the numbers inevitable increase as time passes?
So why do the Zelens£y-bot$ seem to argue that victims of sexual violence, if committed by a Ukrainian, are somehow less of a victim compared to when Russians do it?
And why do the Zelens£ybot$ wish to run such a fake cleansing operation for Ukraine, the MOST corrupt regime on the planet for several decades – e.g. ‘Panama Papers’ – currently headed up by a former RUSSIAN speaking stand up TV sitcom comedian President Zelensky – who’s corrupted government has outlawed the Russian language and any political party that supports a better relationship with Russia, including the main elected opposition party sitting in their parliament, on Craig Murray’s blog comments?
https://im1776.com/2022/05/27/servant-of-the-corrupt/
Even the BBC admit “corruption in Ukraine must be stopped” !
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=Ukrainian+corruption&ia=web
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine
That’s a cracker Natasha. Stream of consciousness?
Natasha, I respectfully suggest you drop the “£zelensky£ bot” nonsense, especially if you’re going to accuse others of being childish.
I also suggest dropping the personal insults because, like Putin’s current targeting of civilians in Ukraine, it smacks of desperation, not strength.
Also of no help are strawman arguments such as this:
“So why do the Zelens£y-bot$ seem to argue that victims of sexual violence, if committed by a Ukrainian, are somehow less of a victim compared to when Russians do it?”
(Unless of course you can provide some quotes from myself or pears or other (*sigh*) Zelensky bot$ where we argue such a ridiculous thing.)
So (and I don’t expect a straight answer, but it’s revealing to see posters like you and wikikettle constantly shrink away from answering straightforward questions) may I ask: do you condemn the rape (you’ve already admitted) is being carried out by Putin’s army?
I’d also be interested to know how you feel about Putin’s current strategy of targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. You were so furious at the “terrorism” of damaging the kerch bridge, but strangely silent on Putin’s current deliberate targeting of civilians.
What could possibly be the reason for your silence?
Good afternoon Natalia. I offer you and those present an investigation from Sharia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mRxfnC3n44&t=0s . Briefly. Ukrainian representatives talked about the facts of mass rapes of Ukrainian citizens by Russian military personnel – in particular, Lyudmila Denisova tried very hard. Numerous interviews with the Western press and briefings. So, Denisova says that mass rapes took place in a certain basement in the locality of Bucha. 12:00 – journalist (briefly) – “I was in the Butch, I asked the prosecutor at that moment, he replied that he had no idea what the conversation was about.” The journalist asked the police to show this place, but they also had no idea what it was about. 15 police officers could not show this place. Because it didn’t happen, it’s a lie. 20:45 – “to date, the Ukrainian prosecutor’s office has no such facts yet” These territories are already under the control of Ukraine, but the prosecutor’s office has no facts about rapes. 21:35 Shariy – “we ask Denisova to give information on these rapes and begin to clarify this information through our channels, but it is not specified. I.e. this does not exist, in general, and has never happened.” Shariy is not a pro-Russian and he has a fairly wide audience in Ukraine. Let me remind you that Denisova was fired not for her lies, but for the fact that she could not provide proof of her lies.
I will also draw Pierce’s attention to the fact that Denisova speaks Russian. Like many Ukrainian politicians, including Zelensky. Yes, yes, he is Russian-speaking.
“Western military technology is vastly superior to Russian.”
Explain please. I’d be interested on your take of Andrei Martynov, sure you know who I mean. Is he paid by Moscow rather than the Patreons … ? Maybe you should haul ass overseas again and check in on the ground as to what’s going on.
If you can explain why having to buy suicide drones from iran and launching then en masse at civilian targets shows Russian technological (and moral while we’re at it) superiority, I’m all ears.
@Neil, lets drop the £elen$ky-bot drama and use your “all ears” to recall the 14,000 killed by Ukrainian government forces from the beginning in 2014 of their civil war to December 2021 when the Russians tried once again to negotiate a security treaty with Europe which had ignored its Minsk commitments to end the civil war. Its very simple then.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=civil+war+in+ukraine+2014&t=ffsb&ia=web
Natasha, “@Neil, lets drop the £elen$ky-bot drama”
How about dropping the gobbledygook? What is it you’re trying to say? That Zelensky murdering 14000 innocent civilians makes him evil but Putin murdering 140000 makes him good?
Neil, childish whimpers labelling as “gobbledygook” my good faith offering historical context and facts yet further weakens your exceedingly flimsy non-case. You began by suggesting that Russia’s use of Iranian drones demonstrates Russia is weak technologically and morally:-
“If you can explain why having to buy suicide drones from iran and launching then en masse at civilian targets shows Russian technological (and moral while we’re at it) superiority, I’m all ears.”
Then respond as if we must choose which side to scream in furious anger at in a football game!
My answer to such tiresome reductions is: Every casualty counts. This is not a two sided game of football. All sides have blame. There is context. The present war in Ukraine didn’t start in February 2022. It started many many times before, in 2014, in 2010, in 1998, in 1991, ‘not and inch further’ etc., etc…. i.e. read some history: ignorance is not an admirable position to be seen celebrating. In other words: to takes sides misses the greater reality of life on our pale blue dot. The only one known to harbour life.
Whilst you’re catching up I shall be giving up: “Never argue with an idiot they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you through experience.” – Mark Twain
Also writing: “Putin murdering 140000” without references, sources or context appears a made up number.
Bayard, if that’s not Natasha’s (and your) argument, why the refusal to comment on the murder? Why always the shifting of focus to Afghanistan, Iraq, etc?
Genuine question.
Natasha, if you can’t see the blindingly obvious flaw in your argument that “Putin killing hundreds of thousands is a good thing because Zelensky murdering tens of thousands is a bad thing” then I think I’ll take Twain’s advice and give up trying to help you. As for being dragged down to my level, ironic as only one of us is using personal insults like “idiot”, and it’s not me.
“Natasha, if you can’t see the blindingly obvious flaw in your argument that “Putin killing hundreds of thousands is a good thing because Zelensky murdering tens of thousands is a bad thing”
That isn’t Natasha’s argument, that’s your argument. Only you are believing that Putin is killing hundreds of thousands. Natasha isn’t, which is why she is not making that argument. I would have thought you would have realised by now that putting straw man arguments into the mouths of other commenters convinces no-one but yourself and your fellow useful idiots.
I’ll answer your question, both for Bayard and for the murders. But first answer my question – what is the root cause of the 1962 Caribbean crisis, when the USSR tried to place its missiles in Cuba?
“launching them en masse at civilian targets” is a common practice for NATO and the United States, isn’t it? What are you trying to accuse the Russian military of, if this is a global practice? Iranian drones, “Shaheds”, were created in Ukraine, and the technology was sold to Iran – oh, what an irony! And I would like to draw your attention to the fact that with such strikes by the Russian military, a small probability of hitting the local population is taken into account, which is absent in the practice of NATO and the United States in such cases. The Ukrainian military is also not limited by such morality – after all, they were trained by NATO and the United States. To bomb civilian objects, to hide behind civilians – this was taught to them by NATO and US instructors.
Particularly impressive is the way Putin cries “terrorism!” at the damage to the kerch bridge, then immediately rains down death and destruction on civilians and civilian infrastructure. Of course the rule is that Russia can destroy Ukraine’s energy infrastructure thereby freezing/starving Ukrainians men, women, elderly and children to death over the winter, but if Ukraine were to dare strike a Moscow power grid, the nukes would come out.
It’s a bit like a 10-stone bully at school challenging a six-year-old to a fight, but only on condition that the six-year-old has one hand tied behind his back first.
I’m not sure which is greater, Russia’s cruelty or its cowardice.
Neil. I have been waiting for NATO to arrive “officially” in Ukraine for months. Do you know when they will send our collective armies in to beat up the bully that is beating up their six year old child ? Zelensky is begging for his sponsors to come and save the day. Come on NATO, you are such a “Defensive” military alliance, composed of the “civilised rules based Democracies” $350,450 Billion Arms budget, Over 30 countries, nearly a Billion population, where are you ?
You know perfectly well why NATO can’t put boots on the ground in Ukraine and it’s got nothing to do with the cowardice you seem to be implying.
Damned if you do (put boots on the ground) for reckless aggression
Damned if you don’t for cowardice.
Putin supporters are hard to please.
Who’d be a Western military alliance?
It was a double whammy for poor Ukraine. Not allowed to be Neutral by Nato nor allowed to join despite many requests. Yet US achieved its planned objectives of imposing sanctions on Russia after its coup in Midan. Transferring its money laundering operations from Afghanistan to Ukraine for the benefit of Congressional Military Industrial Media Pharma Complex. Thats a mouth full, and very bad tasting….The next ” Transfer ” will be from a ruined Ukraine to any number of countries all equally far from the homeland.
No, I don’t understand these reasons, especially in light of the bellicose statements of the NATO leadership and the leadership of NATO countries. They all want to win. So yes, avoiding a fight goes against the statements, and yes, it’s cowardice.
A tragic and very long list of all the pregnant women killed should be published with their photo’s when alive and their Nationalities. When I say all, I mean all, from Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran, Iraq, Central and Latin America, Africa Ruanda, Palestine Gaza, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, West Ukraine, East Ukrainian, and Russia. These are all colonial wars over domination of resources by the strong over the weak. The use of Proxies doing the bidding of the rich and powerful is now the fashion. Body gags returning is no longer acceptable in US and Europe. In world WW1 they didn’t allow the bodies to be returned home England. Touring the cemeteries there I was reminded of the war poets and their words. As I said, Ukraine and many other countries die, while a few grow fabulously rich selling weapons and Think Tank propoganda. Amen.
Wikikettle, i keep asking you about Ukraine and you keep talking about Korea, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc etc.
As others have noted, this is whataboutery. Why the misdirection? It’s almost as if you can’t bring yourself to focus on what Putin is doing in Ukraine, despite this board being a discussion of exactly that. Is that out of shame? I’m happy to condemn as evil the mass murder of innocents, whether by Russians, Ukrainians, Americans, Israelis, whoever. You, on the other hand, have condemned it all as evil with one singular exception: Putin in Ukraine. If you don’t consider the mass murder being committed there as evil, then your foundation for seeing as evil all the other mass murder you’re desperate to bring into the discussion collapses. If not, what is that condemnation based on? Or is it just a case of, if anyone else does it, it’s evil, but if Russia does it, there are mitigating circumstances x, y and z.
The glaring fact of your inconsistency in this begs the question: why?
Any chance of both sticking to the subject and a straight answer?
“It’s a bit like a 10-stone bully at school challenging a six-year-old to a fight, but only on condition that the six-year-old has one hand tied behind his back first.”
It’s more like a bunch of ten stone bullies egging on the six year old to verbally abuse a much larger and older boy, assuring him that if the larger boy retaliates, they’ll all pitch in and beat him up. The six year old, who really wants to join the bullies’ gang, starts taunting the other boy, who then gives him a pasting while the bullies watch and shout encouragement, occasionally preventing him from stopping or running away.
Now, I wonder why a playground analogy sprung to mind.
Bayard, thanks for explaining Russia’s justification for murdering Ukrainian civilians. Name-calling. Right, got it.
It must be strange to live in a mind-space where anything other than unthinking and slavish adherence to the official narrative is “justifying Russia’s murdering Ukranian civilians”.
Neil asks: “do you condemn the rape (you’ve already admitted) is being carried out by Putin’s army?”
My answer: Yes. But me supplying readers with data is not me “admitting” anything – it’s just data nothing personal.
Natasha asks: Neil, do you condemn Zelensky killing or “raping” more than 1 innocent victim?
Or do you still want to play the numbers game? At least 14,000 deaths according to the UN between 2014 – December 2021 in the Ukrainian civil war, plus “14,059 civilian casualties to date, with 5,767 people killed and 8,292 injured” in 2022.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1126391
Or do you want to go back to the 1940s when Germany killed 2 million Russians?
When will you get the point that Bayard, Wikikettle, myself and many others here and all over the the pale blue dot are trying to make?
• ALL SIDES ARE TO BLAME.
• THIS IS NOT A FOOTBALL MATCH.
• THE MAINSTREAM WESTERN NARRATIVE IS PSYCHOPATHIC GROOMING.
Do yourselves a favour and learn what your alleged enemies are helping you understand: The NATO / US /UK ‘exceptionalism’ driven ‘unilateral’ but internally resource poor, ‘rules-based world order’ war-making machine is COLLAPSING in its struggle to dominate all other nations and people, in favour of a ‘multipolar’ resource rich community of nations, a way forward that is supported by two thirds of the humans (not numbers of countries’ votes at the UN which ignores each country’s population) on our pale blue dot i.e. Russia, China, India much of Asia and S. America and Africa.
https://medium.com/@nayakan88/understanding-the-great-game-in-ukraine-330897142aaa
Hi Natasha.
In ww2 National Socialist Germany murdered millions of Soviet citizens, not just Russians.
Including many, many Ukrainians.
Interesting that you choose to focus on the “2 million Russians” murdered.
Hi John, glad you (finally) now accept my arguments.
We both know that Ukraine is not responsible for the Kerch Bridge. According to the Russian Foreign Ministry, Britain is behind this. As well as for the explosion of the gas pipe. So, such actions, without declaring war, are legitimately regarded as terrorist. Strikes on energy facilities are of a military nature – trains in Ukraine run on electric traction. Therefore, we are talking about the destruction of Ukraine’s military logistics. NATO and the United States acted in the same way in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria – wherever they used force. Global practice – nothing personal. Application of Western military experience.
One acquaintance has both Ukrainian and Russian passports. Another ex-resident of Ukraine highlighted the desire for better income and was therefore in favor of the area joining the EU. The cultures are not very different but the same goes for US/Canada or Germany/Austria etc. Ordinary people want just peace and prosperity.
Uzbekistan got its “independence” from the USSR right? They even opened an airbase for USAF.
The main issue here is geopolitical: Washington sneaking ever closer to Moscow, just 500 land km away, making Cuba’s 1800 sea km distance to Washington remote. Moscow sending weapons to Québec separatists would never be tolerated too.
A better analogy would be if a hyper nationalist Germany invaded Poland. (It happened before.)
All of Poland’s Eastern neighbours (the Baltics included) especially a democratic Russia would rush to provide arms and munitions as well as humanitarian aid.
No need to look as far afield as Québec for hypothetical situations.
RT “journalist” sacked for genocidal comments.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Krasovsky
“In late October 2022, during a broadcast, Krasovsky laughed at reports that Russian soldiers had raped an elderly Ukrainian woman during the invasion, and said that Ukrainian children who had in the past criticised the Soviet Union as occupiers of Ukraine should have been drowned or burned. When Krasovsky said Ukraine “should not exist at all”, his interviewee objected as this would mean incorporating many people who did not wish to live under Russian rule, to which Krasovsky said Russia should “shoot” these people.[26][27][28] The comments sparked outrage and Ukraine’s government called on countries to ban RT; Margarita Simonyan, RT’s editor-in-chief, said that she had suspended Krasovsky over the “disgusting” comments.”
This surely confirms the toxic state of Russian public opinion; that Krasovsky felt he could say this on live TV suggests that the Overton Window is well into ultra nationalist territory.
@Natasha.
You said on October 23 @ 20:50 : ” Hi John, glad you (finally) now accept my arguments.”
What makes you think that I now accept your arguments?
Your comments so far on this blog post appear in bad faith. I simply asked :-
“… Or do you want to go back to the 1940s when Germany killed 2 million Russians?”
You then deflected and twisted my comment’s intent …
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/10/striding-towards-armageddon-why-putins-annexations-are-wrong/comment-page-6/#comment-1028272
… by suggesting it was “interesting” that I had “focussed” on that data. As such, your arguments appear to be based on ignorance i.e. propaganda since you rely so heavily on reducing everything to a binary blame game by inviting readers to play the ‘what date / territorial ring fence in history would you like to start the who killed / raped more game?’
I prefer dispassionate analysis, since such an effort reveals that it is abundantly clear to any honest observer which modern nations have done by far the most bullying, murder, rape, war crimes, genocide, invasions, corruption, resources and land theft, etc., etc…
Here’s some homework I offer – in good faith – as the understandings you offer us on this comments thread appear to need some updates:-
https://medium.com/@nayakan88/understanding-the-great-game-in-ukraine-330897142aaa
https://www.indianpunchline.com/
https://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-was-all-written-rand-corp-plan/5773288
You can’t really rely on these numbers when trying to work out how many people had voted to join Russia in Donbas. My wife is Ukrainian, born in lvov. She would vote anytime for Ukrainian to be part of Russia again. I’m Moldavian, born in Moldova. Would vote similarly for Moldova to be part of Russia again. Their so-called independence was used by a group of people in both countries to become rich at the expense of the majority. They used nationalism to accumulate power and money, nothing else.
And to call Kuchma pro-Russian is quite ridiculous, sorry. None of the Ukrainian presidents was. Just because they kept economic ties with Russia doesn’t make them pro-Russian. Nazi groups in Ukrainian got government blessing from the beginning of Ukrainian independence. Same was in Moldova for nationalists.
@Vlad In your opinion has the Putin regime in Russia been used “by a group of people to become rich at the expense of the majority. They used nationalism to accumulate power and money. “?
Or perhaps Russkiy oligarchs made their billions through their innovative business strategies?
Yes, I’d say that’s it.
Btw Moldova was part of the USSR (incorporated without their consent), not Russia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova
Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 were supposed to fix this, but the Ukrainian state refused to implement them. Eight years of the shelling of civilians in the Donbass by the Ukrainian state – over 10,000 dead. Oligarchs running the country and stealing its wealth, with Ukraine which was the workshop of the USSR kept poor – half the gdp per capita of Russia. Terrorist tactics used by the right sector, Azov etc. in big cities such as Mariupol and Odessa to “punish” the opposition.
Yeah, no reason for people to vote to join Russia and get out of the Ukrainian hellhole. Russia is their “least worst” option, but they get pensions that are twice those of Ukraine and oligarchs that are somewhat disciplined by the state (unlike the Ukrainian ones that still run the state). Oh, and cheap energy.
On Ukraine Craig has lost his linkage with reality with this demonization of Russia, and the ad hominems on journalists such as Vanessa Beeley, he can’t see the reality for his ideological blinders. Shame, but has happened to so many progressive/left commentators.
@Roger.
Do you really believe that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is motivated by concern for the welfare of the people of the Donbas?
Really?
” Oligarchs running the country and stealing its wealth ” That would be Russia.
Makes you wonder why so many Ukrainians are prepared to fight, and die, to keep Russia out of their country. Oh of course they’re being forced to be by evil NATO overlords controlled by the NWO.
Not long now before the Mid Term elections in US. A last ditch rush to the laundry with a few billion in cash and old inventory weapons for the share holders and for the Kraken guards to shepherd the conscripts from going back home alive. Terrorist attacks on Nord Stream and Turkstream were a sign of desperation and will backfire on us. Seizing foreign assets and property will lead to other countries withdrawal of holdings in our banks, currency and bonds. Shelling the nuclear power plant was not the first time we attacked such dangerous facilities, ask Iran what terrorism we conducted to its nuclear facilities. A pattern of behaviour, supporting jihadist Terrorists to conduct chemical false flags in Syria to get Nato directly involved, as in Ukraine with a dirty bomb in Ukraine. I can understand our dilemma, as Stoltenburg put it, we can’t lose in Ukraine, its our survival as hegamon and world dominator that provides us in the Collective West with our free lunch, as Professor Michael Hudson explains. So there is no off ramp, we are on a run away train, heading for one escalation after another, to a direct clash, where neither side will back down. Evan Obama is carefully whispering the truth that President Putin keeps adambrating one speech after another and in Q&A’s hours long. All to no avail. Destruction of the Euro and UK Pound has given the Dollar a little more time. Regime change in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and India will proceed as it did in the ousting of Imran in Pakistan. As I said we are very good at war, much better than The Russian Federation.
Kind of ignores the fact that the Putin regime invaded Ukraine, not the other way round.
Like saying that the Poles “provoked” the NSDAP regime to invade Poland in 1939.
Maybe tell us why Ukraine would destroy “Ukraine with a dirty bomb in Ukraine”?
Broken record, your needle stuck in same groove John.
John Kinsella Do your homework try reading the links I gave you above or it’s hard to not conclude you do not genuinely wish to understand how in fact the war against Russia was started by NATO and the US decades ago.
Few people attach any credibility to the ‘dirty bomb’ plot. Why would Ukraine deliberately contaminate its own land – land it one day wants to liberate? Dirty bombs remain a concept: to contaminate a wide area would need a large quantity of radioactive material and a large quantity of explosive to spread it. It would need to be exploded high in the air for maximum effect too. Does Ukraine have the capability to do this?
Having previously blamed the US for the attacks on Nordstream, the Russians are now blaming the UK. Very telling when people start changing their story (see MH17).
@Wikikettle: Kettle calling the Pot black (as it were).
You keep to the tankie script and I’ll keep on pointing out the gaps between script and reality.
For the record, there is a whole lot wrong with life in the West, here in Ireland and I expect in Scotland. (You are Scottish?).
But life here compared is pretty damn good compared with the miserable kleptocracy that is Putin’s Russia.
John did you ever ask yourself why life for us is so good ? What do you think of Jeffrey Sachs script ? Is he a “tankie”aswell ? If he is according to you, then there are billions more “tankies” than then our Golden Billion. I hope to sail around Ireland in the wake of Andrew Phelan QC. His book Ireland from the Sea charts his circumnavigation of Ireland with its military and political histories en route.
More to the point; why is life in Putin’s Russia so bad?
Answer; the wealth that flows from Russia’s abundant natural resources is stolen by Putin’s clique of kleptocrats.
Or if you don’t accept that explanation please provide an alternative one.
John most of the Kleptocrats took their loot out of Russia and into our banks and property. They are mostly in Western countries and Israel now with passports to boot. Our Kleptocrats control our politicians while the billionaire class in China and Russia don’t. President Putin took over a Russia that was on its knees and having its pockets picked. What he has achieved since is recognised by Russians and his approval rating according to pro west agencies is two to three times our leadership. If you worry so much about the state of Russian population, why try and strangle them economically with illegal sanctions, blockades and cancel their arts literature music language and culture with out and out Russophobia ? You see we have to demonise and have an enemy so we ourselves can be shafted while looking over there !
For the record John Kinsella your needle is stuck on repeated ignorance eg Putins approval rating is about 80% which disproves your rhetoric Russians hate Putin cause he allowed their resources to be stolen by oligarchs
Do you know many Russians, John? Have you spoken to any at length about life in Russia, and what they think of it?
The most interesting thing for me in such discussions is how well Western propaganda has worked, and how they seem to think we’re all wealthy and happy in our paradise here. They also seem to think the benefits they take for granted are universal, and are surprised to hear they’re completely absent in our society.
I have indeed.
Two Russian colleagues in the university that I worked in. When I (diplomatically) asked them why they left famous Russian universities for a less famous Irish one, they said (more or less) better pay, better conditions, a better life. And both have taken out Irish citizenship.
A good friend outside the university moved from Russia to Ireland via a Baltic country. His reasons were entirely economic. He briefly talked about moving to Crimea with his young family after the Russian invasion and occupation in 2014. Briefly. Reality set in when he realized that Crimea was poor and offered few opportunities for him and his family.
A few years before that I asked him whether he supported Putin. He replied that Putin could afford to be honest as he had already looted enough to keep him rich for life.
A cynical but frank answer.
Of course Putin and his pals can never have enough so my friend was mistaken….
John, Jeffrey Sachs explains why your friends left Russia. He proposed economic packages for former Soviet countries worth billions. His proposals for Poland were agreed by the State Department. His proposals for Russia met with stoney silence. Academics in Russia were selling their book collections on the streets. No wonder your friends left for Ireland. Gorbachev and Yeltsin were betrayed, Russia went through terrible times desperately trying to join EU and Nato under President Putin. No the neo cons had won and were determined to have full spectrum dominance.
Perhaps if the Russian elite had focussed on the wellbeing of the Russian people rather than asset stripping Russia’s wealth things might have gone differently.
The narrative that Russia was ‘betrayed by the West’ is ironic given that Russia, as so often in the last century, was betrayed by her own elite.
Why, after all, would Great Russia need help from the evil “Zapad”?
Looks like we in UK are now directly at war with Russia. As Liz texted Blinkin ” its done “. We are all done…..
John we helped Germany and Japan after WW2.
It would be nice if your friend brought the facts of Putin’s “robbery”. I believe your friend is a liar.
And yes, the West has never betrayed Russia. The enemy cannot betray.
For the record John Kinsella your needle is stuck on repeated ignorance
That’s ad hominem Natasha.
As we say in English, play the ball not the man.
With all due respect to the author, but if he rests on history, then he should know that there is no such nation as “Ukrainian”. He should know that these are ethnic Russians. That is why the main language in Ukraine has always been Russian. This is also shown by studies and surveys. The Russian language dominates the territory of Ukraine.
About 68% of Ukraine’s population speak Ukrainian as their first or only language despite attempts during the Soviet era to suppress it.
Its tragic that the majority couldnt allow the minority to coexist and now millions are refugees streaming into both Russia and Europe. The Ukrainian flag flyers in Europe will no doubt offer them accommodation, but not speak Ukrainian sadly.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/109228/Russian-Language-Enjoying-Boost-PostSoviet-States.aspx?version=print – According to the Gallup Institute (Gallup, Inc., USA), 83% of Ukrainian citizens prefer Russian in real life. The aim was to investigate how widely the Russian language is used in everyday life by the population of the republics of the former USSR.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2019-01-01%202019-12-31&geo=UA&q=Україна,Украина,Ukraine. – here it is estimated in which language the request is given on the Internet. Blue – in Ukrainian; red – in Russian; yellow – in English.
You should know that a significant part of Ukraine is Russian territories included in its composition in tsarist and Soviet times. This is a fact. Novorossiya, Little Russia, Crimea, Odessa and a number of other regions. Initially with a Russian-speaking population.
https://www.voltairenet.org/article216629.html – to understand what has been happening in Ukraine in the last 30 years.
https://t.me/HersonVestnik/10471 – a woman was beaten in Lviv for speaking in Russian;
https://t.me/HersonVestnik/10461 – another woman was beaten in Lviv for speaking in Russian;
https://t.me/c/1524001401/3321 – Odessa – I demand from Russian women to speak Ukrainian.
This is the news for today. Their mass. This is Ukrainian everyday life. You can ask any friend to view Ukrainian telegrams or any chats. I assure you, most of the videos or correspondence are overwhelmingly in Russian.
Of all the people who explain the situations we are in today worldwide, I have found Professor Michael Hudson to be the most comprehensive. Of all the interviews he has given thus far, I’ve found his most recent given to ” India & Global Left ” channel entitled ” Michael Hudson: Why the US has a unique place in the history of Imperialism? ” A very broad spanning post war picture painted to the present war in Ukraine. If someone could post link please.
” 83% of Ukrainian citizens prefer Russian in real life ” Which doesn’t make them ‘ethnic Russians’.
Let’s turn to science. If you look at the composition
Ukrainian Y-DNA haplogroups:
43% “Slavic” – R1a
21% Semitic Mediterranean mostly Dinaric – I2
The rest of the haplogroups are small things:
7% Semitic Balkan and more Mediterranean – E11
6.5% Semitic common among Greeks – J2
5% Fino-Ugric – N
4% Siberian “Indian” Q
4% Celtic – R1
3% Scandinavian – I1
2.5% Semitic common in the Caucasus of Russia – G
2% Semitic common in the Middle East – T
1% – I 2
J2 is related to the Slavs. Where do you see Ukrainians here? There is “Kievan Rus”, but there is no “Kievan Ukraine” anywhere. This is a fictional nation.
The policy has always been to divide people and pit one group against another. Classically nurtured in Ukraine over years using thugs to believe they were superior to Slavs who were sub human or Orcs ! Yet Slavic themselves.
Ukrainians are a Slavic people as are the Russians so DNA isn’t going to tell you much.
“Ukrainians are Slavic people, just like Russians, so DNA won’t tell you much.” – exactly. One culture, one language. Russian Russians, Shevchenko and Gogol positioned themselves as Russians, the famous hero of Poland, Prince Mihas, called himself a “Russian nobleman”.
Personally, the results of the referendum do not surprise me. “Even the most successful outcome of the war will never lead to the collapse of Russia, which is supported by millions of believers of the Russian Greek denomination. These latter, even if they are separated as a result of international treaties, will reconnect with each other as quickly as disconnected mercury droplets find their way to each other.”- Otto von Bismarck. That’s what we’re seeing right now. Reunion.
Steel Rat. The Russian Federation is made up of many religious and ethnic groups. Not one, superior than the other. The Global South, seeing Russia stand up to US Monetary Imperialism, the new kid in the playground, standing up and daring to confront the bully. A host of countries wanting to join BRICS, with Saudi Arabia daring to sell its oil, not in Dollars, and countries selling their US Treasury Bond IOU’s, all moves hoping the new kid resists, for all our sakes.
The R1b haplogroup is dominant, at more than 43%, in English, Welsh, Irish, Scots, Dutch and in fact most of western europe. So by your reasoning all one culture and one language, so it’s OK for us to go and invade Holland.
Pears Morgan. The Netherlands (they don’t like to be called Holland) are being invaded as we speak. Their farmers, who produce a huge percentage of food for Europe, are being destroyed by the Globalists, with no mention in our corporate media. NATO invaded Europe years ago, taking over their sovereign military and political class. On a cultural level, US fast food, Coke, and Hollywood. There are invasions of Monetary Imperialism: The Euro, interest rates determination. Wars instigated by us in Nato have created millions of deaths and refugees. Ukraine about to send 6 million to EU and 800,000 to UK. Be interesting to see Hungary leave EU and join BRICS. Be interesting to see “terms” of IMF loan to Serbia.
Wikikettle and friends still peddling this nonsense of 97% popular support for Russia in Kherson right up to 11th November.
https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1591105306700177408
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1591067748066787328
President Putin, again seems to offer a freezing of the war in Ukraine. After a long speech and three hour Q&A, he was asked by a journalist if Oddessa was worth visiting! He replied do go and seemed to indicate that depending on peace, Odessa would be the focus of mutual security or continuing war. I speculate that he is offering not to take Odessa, to give Ukraine a sea port for its economic survival in return for peace, Ukraine becoming Neutral, removal of all foreign forces and Nazis from power. Before the Special Military Operation, Russia offerd talks and proposals for a European Wide Security Treaty and Arms Control talks. These were were rejected by US EU Nato, saying we can put Nato anywhere we wanted. Russian security concerns were not our problem ! So here we are, after all the death and destruction, Russia still offering to settle the matter, recognising Ukraine needs Odessa to function. Russia will stick to its original three concerns : Ukraine Neutrality, Demilitarised and DeNazified. Now add to those original terms : recognising Crimea and the liberated Republics. To me that gives Ukraine a functioning State. If these terms are rejected, the war carries on at a slow grinding pace. It will take brave non Nazis in the Ukrainian Military to oust Zelensky and his Nazis handlers and prevent the total destruction of their state and break up. Neo cons in US, the Poles will not want peace. Millions more Ukrainians will leave the endless war. Colonel Douglas Macgregor thinks there is a chance the US is trying to put together a ” Coalition of the Willing ” US, UK, Polish and Romanian troops to intervene in the absence of full Nato agreement as General Petraeus floated. Others doubt this intervention force would be large enough and only cause WW3. I think Russia again is offering terms as it has continually done by asking US to simply recognise its own security needs. The problem is that US is never threatened on its own borders homeland and its habit of starting wars thousands of miles away on countries that in no way threaten it in any way, will carry on at the cost of BOTH its perceived enemies and so called proxy ALLIES.
Obviously the huge over 90 percent votes can not accurately reflect the views of these regions.
That does not mean that Vanessa Beeley comment about the international observers is incorrect.
But that corruption of the vote was achieved without it being observed. It is a question of who and how the votes are counted.
We see this on supposedly free democracies. Many of the American Elections results are highly contested.
Vanessa Beeley has done much to expose the white helmets and what has been happening in Syria
She often appears on UK Column they have done some good work on Covid but are very pro-Russia.
While there is much western propaganda against Russia that does need countering. They are unable to be critical of Russia.
Vanessa Beeley, while not observing the reported corruption, should now that these huge majorities are never natural.
Brian Sides, what the majority want is not the concern of the elites that rule over us. What information the majority digest to go out and vote is managed by the bought media. What choice do the majority have? The majority in Ukraine voted for the “peace” candidate Zelensky, just as Obama promised peace ! He turned out to be only a tool of an Oligarch and US. Hatred sown over many years of ethnic superiority by Nationalists over the “other”, rampant privatisations, corruption and proximity to Russian underbelly sealed Ukraine’s fate. Reading independent journalists’ reports is the only way of not getting propagandised. I watched an interview by John Mark Dugan of Adrien Bocquet, a French military doctor who went to Ukraine to help Ukrainians. What he witnessed in Boucha, nearly got him murdered, was kidnapped and tortured and framed by the French authorities, he claims. Now he can’t go back to France for fear of his life for simply trying to speak about what he witnessed. That’s what I call bravery.