It is a clear indicator of the disappearance of freedom from our so-called western democracies, that Sy Hersh, arguably the greatest living journalist, cannot get this monumental revelation on the front of the Washington Post or New York Times, but has to self-publish on the net.
Hersh tells the story of the US destruction of the Nordstream pipelines in forensic detail, giving dates, times, method and military units involved. He also outlines the importance of the Norwegian armed forces working alongside the US Navy in the operation.
One point Sy does not much stress, but it is worth saying more about, is that Norway and the USA are of course the two countries who have benefitted financially, to an enormous degree, from blowing up the pipeline.
Both not only have gained huge export surpluses from the jump in gas prices, but Norway has directly replaced Russian gas to the tune of some $40 billion per year. From 2023 the United States will appear in that list in second place behind Norway, following the opening in the last two months of two new Liquefied Natural Gas terminals in Germany, built to replace Russian gas with US and Qatari supplies.
So Russia lost out massively financially from the destruction of Nordstream and who benefited? The USA and Norway, the two countries who blew up the pipeline.
But of course, this war is nothing to do with money or hydrocarbons and is all about freedom and democracy…
To return to Hersh’s account, particularly interesting are the series of decisions taken to avoid classification of the operation in various ways which would require it to be reported to Congress. In terms of United States history, this ought to be a big deal.
For the Executive to commit what is an act of war without the approval of the Legislature is fundamentally unconstitutional. But that is one of those quaint remnants of democracy that the neo-liberal elite consensus can quietly sidestep nowadays.
Hersh sets out the well known background in compelling detail, including the fact that, from Biden down, the Americans effectively announced what they were going to do, openly.
But what most worries me about the entire story is the unanimous complicity of the mainstream media in ignoring the completely obvious.
The media line, parroted here relentlessly by the BBC and corporate media, was that the Russians had probably themselves blown up the pipeline on which they had expended such great resources and three decades of intense diplomatic activity, and which was to be the key to Russia’s single most valuable source of income for the next 40 years.
This was always quite literally incredible. You would have to be deranged to believe it.
It actually taught me not just that we truly are in the realm of totalitarianism and the Big Lie, but I learnt something very important about how the Big Lie works.
The secret is not that people genuinely believe an outrageous claim. The secret is that people do genuinely believe that they are in a battle of good against evil, and it is necessary to accept the narrative being promoted, in the interests of fighting evil.
Don’t question, just follow. If you do question, you are promoting evil.
I am sure that is how it works.
State and corporate stenographer journalists are actually intelligent individuals. If they thought about it, they would realise that the narrative that Russia blew up its own pipeline is obvious nonsense.
But they are convinced it is morally wrong to think about it.
Which is why none of them challenged the equally mad claims that Russia was repeatedly shelling its own forces occupying the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, and indeed is why none of them challenged the utterly risible official version of the Skripal story.
I previously told the anecdote from when I worked in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and asked a good friend if he really believed the misinformatioin on Iraqi WMD with which he was involved.
He replied by referring to the video game Championship Manager (now renamed Football Manager), which we used to play together. He said when he was in the game, it was immersive, he was manager of Liverpool, and it fully absorbed him.
Similarly, when he walked through the FCO gates, the world of the intelligence reports was immersive and Iraq did have these WMDs inside that world. He worked in the “reality” of the FCO. Once he left in the evening, he lived in a different reality, the world of us in the pub.
I do know of one or two journalists bright enough to detach their professional output from what they really think, in a similar way. (I once had a conversation along these lines with Jeremy Bowen in Tashkent.)
Most however don’t think like this. They simply think that all right thinking people support the historic struggle against the evil Russians, so it must be right to read out the propaganda without thinking too much about it.
Those of us critical of the aggressive promotion of war in Europe, are not only barred from all mainstream media and confined to corners of the internet, and even then heavily suppressed on social media (which is why Sy Hersh’s article does not have the scores of millions of readers it merits).
We can’t even obtain freedom of assembly.
Two established left wing venues have cancelled the No 2 Nato meeting I am addressing in London on 25 February. Conway Hall’s reasons for cancellation included threats to funding and fears for the safety of staff.
We are now reduced to a guerrilla meeting, the Central London venue for which will not be announced until the evening before.
Is this really a democracy, where it is not possible for dissidents to hold a public meeting without secrecy, subterfuge and hiding from supporters of the state?
I do urge you to come along on the day, whatever your views on the subject, to support the right to freedom of speech.
I have a different view from perhaps all of the other speakers, on the legitimacy of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which I oppose.
But I also oppose NATO expansion which is an underlying cause of the war, and indeed oppose the existence of NATO itself.
NATO is a war machine which sucks resources from working people to benefit the military industrial complex, and unleashes devastating destruction on developing states which do not make their natural resources available to western billionaire elites.
It is also a fundamental node of the propaganda apparatus which manipulates and controls our society, particularly as counter narrative and dissident thought is now rigorously and systematically excluded.
There is no longer an Overton window of permitted debate. It has narrowed and should be renamed the Overton letterbox.
One of those small difficult ones right down at the bottom of the door. With a very fierce spring, and snarling dogs guarding it.
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“Its Done” the alleged remark by Truss to Blinken shortly after the explosion.
What does surprise me is the complete absence of any reference to Britain’s involvement in all this when they have been shown to be the lead component on so much else.
I still feel that Russia evacuated from Kherson city because they took the threat seriously that Britain was going to supply a small nuclear device to blow up the dam.
Perhaps Hersh had no reliable evidence that the UK was involved. The UK takes part in BALTOPS as well, so it’s quite possible they were involved. If Hersh was simply making stuff up, would he not have included the UK in the plot on the strength of the well-known Truss remark?
Hersh apparently relied on one source for the information so the source either might not have known of any British involvement or deliberately omitted mentioning it.
See here Moscow-based Australian-American journalist John Helmer’s criticism of Seymour Hersh’s report:
What’s wrong with the Hersh Report on the Nord Stream Attacks
Helmer is of the opinion that not only did the British have a role in sabotaging the Nordstream pipelines but they also were involved in previous attempts to undermine or sabotage the project during construction. The Danes and the Polish also had some involvement in trying to stop the project (recall that the Danes tried stopping the project on environmental grounds).
Garland Nixon sees an historic irony in this terror attack:
“Germany’s quisling government was attacked by Norway, the nation that literally gave us the term quisling.”
And this Norwegian flea knows the German quisling will not retaliate cos it would mean acknowledging daddy Sam has also wrecked them. Europe’s mighty powerhouse wrecked by a Norwegian flea!
Roger Waters speaks in the United Nations!
One powerful speech!
https://youtu.be/xZXMmRg9ZcU
Thanks.
thx!
I liked his letter to Mrs. Zelenski. That awful, stuck up, ambitious, tedious, nasty, dishonest…person.
(buuuut: What does R.W. have to do with intern. politics? with diplomacy? with the inner workings of the UN? with any of this? Or is this the attempt of the Russians to try to do as good at the PR-front as the Ukrainians have for the past 12 months. Because I must say, the Russians have performed miserably.)
AG
Indeed, Russia seems to have no idea how bad they are framed in the west, a significant part of winning a war is winning the information “warfare”, winning the hearts and minds. While I appreciate RW speech I believe this was the wrong forum.
I am surprised how bad the information from Russian news/gov. have been. One would have imagined colossal propaganda offensives and high activity, but there is simply nothing being done and thus west and Ukraine have total dominance in this sphere.
While Zelensky utilize social media and uploading speeches every other day to encourage ukrainians, the west, Putin is rarely seen at all, russian passivity is striking.
So Ukraine have already won the PR war and frankly I believe they will eventually win the military war too.
presently there is no Ukrainian victory in sight.
Russians know what they are doing.
I am not even sure any more they performed as poorly initially as almost everyone alleged. Especially taking into account NATO build-up of 7 years.
I have to look into that again.
Of course things can always change.
PR – of course it could be:
1) Kremlin does not care any more because they know whatever they pull off their image here wont change
(dont know if that´s true though)
The mistakes made lie perhaps more in the past when Russia didn´t counter the anti-Putin nonsense right away.
2) their targeted audience in numbers is much higher than the one in Europe, is satisfied with what Russia offers. Their PR it simply not intended for us.
AG
Russia have no clue what they are up to. 1 year already and they are pretty much stuck meanwhile the west just keeps arming and arming Ukraine. After all, the west have more arms supply than Russia, it is a done deal.
Russia acted way too weak and too slow in the beginning where they should have established control over this war but the war have dragged out and now the west could not care less about Putin, they have no fear for him anymore thus they keep escalating.
Jack
mostly I agree with your comments.
West still dominates the narrative but I have been on Indian youtubers sites( searching for info) and obsessively reading
comment, wherever I go and I am surprised by Support for Russia.
It is hard to accept that there are many Billions of people remembering not that long ago history!
“While Zelensky utilize social media and uploading speeches every other day to encourage ukrainians, the west, Putin is rarely seen at all, russian passivity is striking.”.
You are right Putin should have addressed the “Golden globe” . WTF was he doing?
Today I watched “Hard Talk ” with opposition party and not a Hard Q.. She just talked and talked without being questioned hardly !
And of course
Ride on a bear, bare-chested, into EU parliament on short notice and into Buckingham Palace!
I think the Russians are being realistic about propaganda. They know that the vast majority of the people in the West have already made their minds up in the way that Craig describes in his post, so there is little point in wasting time on a charm offensive. They are fighting against centuries of Russophobia. Anyway, why should they give a shit what we think over here?
Bayard
They should “give a shit” because this is perhaps the bigger battle than the battlefield battle. It is all about hearts and minds and Russia have completely missed that.
Large majority of western populations had no idea about Ukraine before the invasion, now large majority of western populations support Ukraine, how did they get there? Of course due conditioning and good PR for the ukrainian cause.
Yeah, you pretty much summed it up. I talked to some Europeans while on a trip to Indonesia, and they are all like, Putin is evil and we in the West have free press and democracy. These people are completely clueless and very comfortable about being clueless.
I agree Putin should go to Hyde Park Speakers Corner and win “hearts and mind”
Don’t forget how vigorously the West has acted to censor all Russian sources of information. What does trickle through is easily dismissed using the usual demonization techniques developed over the years. To find counter narratives to the mainstream Western ones takes a lot of searching – and just to be searching for the Russian point of view indicates the searcher has already rejected much of the Western fable. Not many have. It is “fact” that Putin is evil and a “fact” that Russia is the aggressor. That’s all most people need to know to make up their minds.
“They should “give a shit” because this is perhaps the bigger battle than the battlefield battle. It is all about hearts and minds and Russia have completely missed that.”
No they haven’t. How can Russia possibly “win the propaganda war” without broadcasting information about Russia to the West? ANY information broadcast by Russia to the West is instantly dismissed as Russian propaganda and disbelieved for the simple reason that Russia is saying it. Ditto ANY information that does not follow the official narrative that Russia is to blame, Russia is evil. Anything that supports Russia is automatically counted as a lie, you only have to look at Craig’s previous post. Sources? lying. Videos? faked. Documents? forged. Emails? tampered with. Photographs? photoshopped.
In any case, what would be the point? Do you really think it likely that if Russia had done better in the “propaganda war”, the West would stop supplying Ukraine with weapons? It is not the people you have to convince, they are largely powerless in the West’s collection of oligarchies passing themselves off as democracies because the people get to choose which carefully selected candidate is going to ignore their wishes in such matters for the next five years. It is the leaders that need to be convinced and no amount of propaganda will do that.
Bayard
While all you say is true you forget to ask why, why do people see everything from Russia as propaganda? Because of conditioning and good PR by Ukraine and its supporters. And you have today not 1 single EU nation (besides Hungary) that do not support the sanctions and arms shipment from the west because of this PR.
Yes west would not go this far in supplying weapons to Ukraine if it wasnt for the bad development for Russia in this war imo.
In the beginning western states were worried about delivering MANPADS, look today, now they are talking about giving them fighter airplanes.
If the western population every day see bombed houses in Ukraine and frame it like Russia target civilians or whatever incorrent claim, those PR segments boost the support for Ukraine in the west and many times Russia do not even issue a rebuttal.
“While all you say is true you forget to ask why, why do people see everything from Russia as propaganda? Because of conditioning and good PR by Ukraine and its supporters.”
It is absurd to think that Russia and Ukraine started the propaganda war on an equal footing. Ukraine had a head start of over a hundred years. That is how long the Western nations backing Ukraine have been pumping out anti-Russian propaganda. The Crimean War was fought because of anti-Russian propaganda. Look up the etymology of “jingoism”.
“If the western population every day see bombed houses in Ukraine and frame it like Russia target civilians or whatever incorrent claim, those PR segments boost the support for Ukraine in the west and many times Russia do not even issue a rebuttal.”
Where are they going to issue a rebuttal? In the Washington Post? What you mean is, you haven’t seen any such rebuttal in the Western MSM. There are plenty of recordings of the likes of Maria Zakharova, Lavrov or Peskov giving rebuttals on the internet but the media they are on are censored in the West and the MSM simply don’t print them.
Bayard
Through social media, creating new news outlets, daily reports in english etc because this is where the battle is going.
Just look at the NAFO campaign, why have Russia not started a similar PR effort?
West have been targeting russian media for years prior to the invasion, so why have Russia not prepared anything to replace banned Russian media with?
Even RT, Sputnik have been terribly sparse with info , boosting morale and even propaganda itself during the war.
I would expect gigantic propaganda efforts but there is nothing there imo.
Same with Hersh revelation, why are not Russia doing more to put at the top focus? Why not call on UNSC for a meeting on this issue? Why are not Russia even calling up the ambassador or better yet kicking she out of Russia?
But I also see your point, if west do not want to hear, that is also a big problem of course.
“Through social media, creating new news outlets, daily reports in english etc because this is where the battle is going.”
WTF have you been looking, it’s all there on social media as for news outlets, just go and look on Russia Today if you want the other side of the story, except that you can’t because it has been censored, as will any other news outlet that puts forward the Russian narrative. The information is there for those who want to look for it and it will never be there for those who can’t be bothered, because it will never be in the Western MSM.
“Just look at the NAFO campaign, why have Russia not started a similar PR effort?”
Probably because they want people to take them seriously.
“I would expect gigantic propaganda efforts but there is nothing there imo.
Same with Hersh revelation, why are not Russia doing more to put at the top focus? ”
OK, what exactly would you suggest they do?
“Why not call on UNSC for a meeting on this issue? ”
Just check out the result of the last time Russia called a UNSC meeting on anything: nothing. FFS, Russia called a vote in the UN which resulted in the entire world siding with them except the USA and its puppet, Ukraine and the result was…nothing.
Bayard
US most likely commited a declaration of war regarding the russian pipelines and you mean Russia should do nothing?
Could you imagine the reaction if an american pipeline was sabotaged and all evidence pointed towards Russia?
You think the americans would sit still? Of course not, but that is what Russia is systematically are doing. There is simply no gusto in the russian camp.
Inactivity breeds more assault by the west and thus hurts Russia in the long run tremendously.
“US most likely commited a declaration of war regarding the russian pipelines and you mean Russia should do nothing?”
Nothing pointless, no, like moaning about it on social media. There is only one thing the US listens to and that is force. Russia’s options wrt force are pretty limited. They don’t want to start WWIII. The object of the exercise is to win the war in Ukraine, not to be seen to be right or to get their revenge.
“Could you imagine the reaction if an american pipeline was sabotaged and all evidence pointed towards Russia?”
Just because that would probably result in the US government doing something monumentally stupid doesn’t mean the Russians should do the same.
Bayard
The point is that the US would get away with it, would you not call blowing up russian pipelines “stupid”? And it happend and Russia did nothing about it.
If Russia never respond, the west will just keep doing this more and more. Same on propaganda front, if you do nothing, do not expect any positive change for your cause.
but the “force” argument is exactly what the US wants.
Russians already gave in once.
they won´t want to do it again.
The only leverage the US has is force.
It´s in fact the only thing they understand.
Noam Chomsky once said correctly about Kissinger, there is not much Kissinger understands except the use of force.
And this is true for many there.
The Kagans, The American Heritage Foundation, Project for the New American Century, etc. certain RAND groups, the NATO civil affiliates, and so on.
What the BRICS are intending is to change the field of this competition.
Washington knows this of course.
“would you not call blowing up russian pipelines “stupid”? And it happend and Russia did nothing about it.”
It would be more correct to say that they haven’t yet. Of course, they might have, via their secret services, arranged a leak from within the US about exactly how the attack on the pipelines was carried out. Russia’s best bet, AFAICS, is to try to drive a wedge between Germany and the US, far better than some explosive theatricals along the lines of the US “shock and awe”.
they are currently being shredded in the military war.
What does RW had to do with anything?
I am happy that sport and sportsman or actors and film awards or God forbid Olympics etc are not used in
propaganda.
What RW and fashion Icon has to do with Whistleblowers and JA ?
Wasn’t the Kuwait “nurse” (Ambassador doughtier)
telling UN about Iraqi soldiers throwing out babies from incubators.?
Why war propaganda and propaganda needs “anonymous source(singular)” but “inconvenient truth”
at least to sources?
Why not 3 sources with name and accepting jail sentence of minimum 20 years for treason, espionage and
disclosing national security risks or (what was the German explanation)?
BTW , RW was accused the other day for” being down the core antisemit” by the wife of his ex “bandmate”
” Because I must say, the Russians have performed miserably” .
While Putin did not want to go to parliaments and awards etc.
Zelensky was risking his life addressing every Big Event or .Parliament by Zoom or in life
presence.
I was in tears watching “Speaker of the House” in Tail Coat and in tears with a PM wearing helmet.
??
Sunak and Zelensky in helmets
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/08/rishi-sunak-british-ukraine-support-fighter-jets-weapons/
It is not as good as with Boris J on Zip wire
Interesting if true:
REPORT: Zelensky Dodged the Draft FOUR TIMES in 2014 / 2015
Roger Waters then…hm.
Kiev of course couldn´t care less.
Worst being for them that Waters is apparently the better orator and actor.
But that´s not too difficult if the other contender for coolest person in the UN is doing a bad playback of Churchill who did what he did 80 years ago, when rhetoric, media, language followed completely different rules in a very different asthetic environment as today.
As to English-song writing – when being Angela Merkel was still considered cool by the public, that particular Stones´ song “Angie” became sort of an inofficial government anthem.
But of course Waters´ true intention is to convince people to take to the streets. Not explain anything everyone knows.
Sarah Wagenknecht and Alice Schwarzer ( a great friend of Merkel´s btw) have published a memo for a new peace movement just today.
Hopefully they will make use of the Waters speech.
Would prove good timing.
” Roger Waters then…hm.
Kiev of course couldn´t care less. ”
Nobody does really. Just a burnt out musician trying to keep himself in the spotlight.
Burnt out Journalist musicians etc.
O/T Do you follow Pakistan’s negotiation about IMF Loans and conditions? You questioned “Quotes” in Russell Brand Video.
they are likely more concerned with losing the war, it is true. burnt out US tools.
So, Roger Waters is a burnt out musician, Sy Hersh is a burnt out journalist, and, I guess, Craig Murray is a burnt out blogger. What keeps you here, Mr Young-and-Prolific?
With the 20 year anniversary of the start of the Iraq war coming up. This is an incredible thread to read through : https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1620124404637114368?cxt=HHwWgICx5f2j6
This line encapsulates why the media behave as they do to this day, propagating lies:
“Journalists had very little choice but to accept our version of events & relay it more or less unedited to the public. Govt is an information machine. If journalists weren’t supportive we’d freeze them out”
That is a very good thread for people who cant read and wont listen but are willing to use their phone.
Thx!
Hardly fair, given Roger’s history of activism. But you, of course, may not have heard of it.
Censorship going all over the board, here, a political scientist are not able to get his report out because of political reasons.
The Maidan sniper killings were pivotal for the 2014 Kiev coup – why is research into the massacre being censored in the West?
“Political scientist Ivan Katchanovski – of the University of Ottawa – has revealed that a paper he produced outlining evidence that the February 2014 massacre of Ukrainian protesters by sniper fire, a defining moment of the Western-backed Maidan coup, was not published by an academic journal for “political reasons.”
https://swentr.site/russia/570921-maidan-sniper-killings-censorship/
https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski
cool. wasn´t a problem a few months ago.
Overton Arrowslit, more like.
A fine dissection of the hersh column by john helmer(johnhelmer.org) which gives an interesting viewpoint to say the least.
I tried to go further than the first and second para, but … Someone should let them know that basic html / css formatting could improve the site performance.
Though, I agree on Brits and Poles, they are my main suspects.
Hi Tatyana.
Whoever blew the NordStream pipeline, noone was killed.
Unlike the destruction by the Putin regime of (to give just one example) Mariupol.
Which resulted in the deaths of many thousands of noncombatants.
And yes, I have met and had conversations with refugees from Mariupol who have fled to Ireland.
(Ireland has accomodated many more Ukrainian refugees (mainly women and children) per head of population than England or most European countries. They have been made welcome.)
Good night,
John
(Ireland has accomodated many more Ukrainian refugees (mainly women and children) per head of population than England or most European countries. They have been made welcome.)
Back in March the UK admitted 350 refugees; Ireland 1,500. The UK was the only country in Europe demanding that refugees had visas. Liz Truss was convinced Russian agents would disguise themselves as refugees and go around painting everybody’s door handles with Novichok. I wrote to my MP and asked him if he wasn’t ashamed, it seems he wasn’t.
“Whoever blew the NordStream pipeline, noone was killed.
Unlike the destruction by the Putin regime of (to give just one example) Mariupol.”
Also unlike the US destruction of Fallujah, which is just as relevant as Mariupol. The revelations about the Nordstream attack are important because it was an attack on Germany, not because it was an attack on Russia, although it does give the lie to NATO posturing that they are not directly involved in this conflict.
Whataboutery.
Hypocrisy
Brilliant but chilling.
I very much want to come along on the 25th February (having only just heard of this) but I’m getting a message online that it’s sold out. Is there an alternative source of tickets? Would be prepared to just turn up on the day, but seems that I won’t know where to go…
Thanks for this article!
You say: “But what most worries me about the entire story is the unanimous complicity of the mainstream media in ignoring the completely obvious.”
I would add that it’s worse than that. The editorial department at oilprice.com writes the following with the heading:
“Seymour Hersh article unlikely to change narrative”
“U.S. journalist Seymour Hersh published an investigation this week into the explosions on the NordStream pipeline in September last year, claiming that American divers planted explosives under three of the four pipelines during a NATO Baltic Sea exercise in the summer, detonating them remotely. Hersh also claimed that Norway was complicit in the scheme. The U.S. has categorically denied the claims, which Hersh sources to unnamed “insiders”, while Russia is hoping (futilely) that Hersh will testify in the Duma. While Moscow is relishing this media victory, we do not expect much damage to come as a result of the report. At this point, it is too late to sway Western public opinion in relation to Russia’s war against Ukraine.”
It could be argued that the extreme good vs evil delusion is particularly deeply ingrained in those parts of the world most and longest shaped by certain varieties of abrahamic religion, certain varieties of Christianity and Islam to be precise.
In places where this ideology is less all-pervasive, a more pragmatic approach to reality may be somewhat easier to achieve.
The Russians have clearly long ago given up on any attempt to convince the brainwashed sheep of the West, and they don’t have any false hopes now.
It matters not though, on the much larger and incomparably more sympathetic non western audiences around the world it does have effect, just as on Russia’s domestic audience.
That’s ultimately enough and all they wanted.
[ George Galloway offers his thoughts about the propaganda tricks deployed by the establishment (represented by Tobias Elwood MP – Lt Col, 77th Brigade) to beguile the students into voting to endorse the military’s right to kill, in the 90th anniversary “King and Country” debate at the Oxford Union on Thursday (9 Feb 2023). ]
George Galloway: How the Oxford Union was fooled (10th Feb 2023) – YouTube, 5m 10s
It’s fortunate for Germany that Hersh is being ignored and rubbished. This way they get to keep a bit of pride.
thx to JACK´s posted Twitter link re: Maidan shooting, I went back to the Jacobin –
Branko Marcetic there went into the Bennett interview on Bennett´s obstructed peace deal, see Febr. 8th issue:
https://jacobin.com/2023/02/ukraine-russia-war-naftali-bennett-negotiations-peace
one paragrpah:
“(…)These disclosures from Bennett’s interview have been completely ignored by the Western press, which has universally treated Bennett’s claim that Putin assured him he wouldn’t kill Zelensky during talks as the major takeaway, while entirely leaving out his claims about NATO governments’ blocking of peace talks. To date, the Guardian, Associated Press, Bloomberg, the Hill, the Independent, the Week, Al Jazeera, Politico, and Reuters have all run reports either covering the interview or mentioning it, but have left out this crucial tidbit — only saying that Bennett’s peacemaking efforts “did little to stop the bloodshed,” “ultimately failed to bring the conflict to a swift end,” or that they “did not appear to take off,” without relaying Bennett’s explanation for why that was the case.(…)”
(the quoted outlets are linked in the original)
and:
“(…) In fact, the only major outlets that did report on this revelation were CGTN, the Chinese state-owned English-language broadcaster, and RT, its Russian counterpart, which has been banned in the European Union, the UK, North America, and Australia, as well as blocked by Google — all but ensuring Western publics won’t be exposed to Bennett’s claims, or that if they are, they won’t be taken seriously. This mirrors the treatment of the Pravda report last year, which was similarly ignored, something the University of Ottawa political scientist Ivan Katchanovski said at the time was typical when it came to revelations butting up against prevailing Western media coverage of post-Soviet countries. (…)”
If we take this into account – the West´s complicity and actual co-responsibility into causing 150,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers –
(what troubles me most, because those cannot be brought back and they were at the mercy of Western politicians playing games) –
I do not see what is so darn controversial about Roger Waters´ appearance in the UN.
Apart from him being an entertainer who knows not more about any of this than we do.
But this is how fame in a capitalist world works. And if it helps, fine!
He said two things:
The attack was provoked
We don´t want WWIII
That´s it.
Everyone knows the war was provoked. Makes even more sense with Bennett´s „revelations“.
Besides this, the government in Kiev has been pushing publically for an escalation for years.
Even if it wasn´t reported in the West, it is in the records of Ukrainian media.
And they are not ashamed of it in any way.
One year ago if you were saying “well this is proxy war” you were considered a puppet.
Now a miracle has happened, the Ukrainian government says itself, “Well guys we are fighting your war.”
One year ago you were yelled at if you said this is a war of US/NATO against Russia.
Now even the German MoFA whose job is to cover-up the truth says so openly.
What is it called if in a negotiation, party A constantly says “please stop doing what you are doing because it will make things worse” and party B responds “Well, we carry on because we don´t care what you think”.
They call that provocation.
Even regardless of whose party´s side you take. Just technically.
And if even scientific folks like Mearsheimer or Chomsky have been warning of a provocation for over a decade it should make one wonder.
So I guess, if it suits EU or NATO, and they have escalated the war effort before summer, in a few months, we will probably hear “well, it IS a provocation but since Putin is evil we had the right to do so.”
And who will care in the MSM? Nobody.
For the why, look up CMs last blog entry on the “evil” enemy.
It may be considered by some to be rather naive, but I thought this letter to the Guardian sums up the thoughts of millions rather well….
” In the light of the catastrophic earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, could people starting or perpetuating wars and other conflicts be told to grow up, go home and shut the fuck up, because we have enough to be dealing with?
Mary Gildea
Charlton, London”
Hi AG.
You said ” the West´s complicity and actual co-responsibility into causing 150,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers “.
Whatever about the number of Ukrainian troops killed by the Russians, to ascribe any responsibility for their deaths to “the West” is morally bankrupt.
Perhaps we should welcome your use of the word co-responsibility, indicating that the Putin regime is at least partially responsible for the deaths of tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians.
One step remains, to acknowledge that the entire responsibility for those deaths falls on the malignant autocrat who launched the invasion and on his thuggish sidekicks.
All the best,
John
“One step remains, to acknowledge that the entire responsibility for those deaths falls on the malignant autocrat who launched the invasion and on his thuggish sidekicks.”
The person who is responsible for a disaster is the last person who could have prevented it. The West could have prevented this war if the peace negotiations in Istanbul had not been stopped by them, thus they are responsible. Any major event apart from a natural disaster has a chain of causality leading far back into history, as illustrated by the nursery rhyme “For the want of a nail…”. If Richard III had been able to get hold of another horse, the lack of a nail wouldn’t have mattered.
Hello Bayard.
You said that “The person who is responsible for a disaster is the last person who could have prevented it.”
Definitely.
And the last person who could have prevented the disastrous invasion of Ukraine was Putin.
He, after all, is CIC of the Russkiy Armed Forces and presumably instructed his Minister for Defence to send his troops into Ukraine.
All the best,
John
“And the last person who could have prevented the disastrous invasion of Ukraine was Putin.”
We are not talking about the “disastrous invasion of Ukraine”. We are talking about the “the deaths of tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians”, as you put it.
By the time of the peace talks, hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians had not died. If the invasion had stopped before it had started, sure, only a few people would have died, but that doesn’t negate the fact that, if the invasion had stopped a month later, the casualties would still have been slight. There are literally thousands of things in history that could have stopped the deaths in Ukraine since February 2022, it just depends on how far you go back. That is why you have to look at the last thing that could have stopped the process, not the one you most like the look of.
Norway didn’t increase gas exports, or only by 3%: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/norway-piped-gas-exports-rise-3.3-in-2022-fall-just-shy-of-record-0
It makes no sense for them to help destroy Russian pipelines, as they are a prime target themselves. CIA disinformation?
Did well out of the rising prices though.
It makes sense IF you assume that Russia won’t retaliate. Since the whole US/NATO approach toward the conflict is based on this assumption, it’s reasonable to suggest Norway made no exception to NS sabotage.
Quote : “For the Executive to commit what is an act of war without the approval of the Legislature is fundamentally unconstitutional.”
I think this should be the key concern for all Americans and European partners of the US. It’s why I would never favour an executive Presidency if we [UK] ever choose to become a republic. It’d have to be a ceremonial presidency only, or no President at all.
The fact this story could well be true from a constitutional standpoint should be quite concerning to those US citizens with a conscience. The implication being a US president, along with his/her ever loyal CIA, can theoretically commit war crimes, with impunity, in secret. By authorising; either, some part of the armed forces not covered by oversight of the House Intelligence Committee. Or, by outsourcing an evil deed to a foreign power; or outsourcing to some other third-party. It’s a big hole in oversight. Does anyone think this is what the Founders would have wanted?
John Kinsella and Pears Morgaine
re. refugees from Ukraine
https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine
it’s official website and stats for United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Russia received more refugees than any other country. 2,852,395 recorded up to 03.10.20200
Please note, we also received refugees in between 2014-2022. Many of whom are no longer refugees, but citizens.
So, John, you say you met and had conversations with refugees from Mariupol in Ireland, I got a suggestion for you.
This very conflict started because there was no dialog, no agreement between Western and Eastern parts of Ukraine. What if you ask “your’ refugees and I ask “my” refugees to meet via internet conference and to finally talk to each other?
Tatyana
those 2,852,395 were abducted
Yes mass forced deportations, often with families being broken up, have been going on for months and are another war crime Russia has to answer for.
https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/10/russias-forced-deportation-of-ukrainian-civilians-amounts-to-war-crimes-finds-amnesty
Sorry if your government controlled media is telling you something else Tatyana.
what do you mean by abducted? deported? where does this come from?
Hello!
These people live next to me!
What all 2,852,395?
Look, what I’m suggesting is real action – you take those around you, I take those around me and we just give them a chance to talk.
What is so difficult about this?
Where does all this sarcasm and nitpicking come from?
I wouldn’t bother asking, Tatyana. Anyone who believes as gospel truth anything put out by the Western MSM and, moreover expects you to believe it against what people you actually know personally are telling you is not likely to be interested in actual dialogue beyond mere point-scoring.
Yours is a good idea, but I’m not sure you’ve picked the right audience.
Re. previously discussed legality/illegaity of Russia’s intervention in Ukraine.
Craig has this Sy Hersh piece published in Consortium News this week and right below that, another distinguished writer Joe Lauria weighs in on the International Law:
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/02/10/on-the-legal-question-of-russias-military-intervention/
Bottom Line:
* A state (even a new, self proclaimed one with limited recognition) is not prohibited from inviting foreign forces onto its territory.
Hello intp1
That argument is disingenuous.
Whatever about the statehoood of Donetsk and Luhansk and any consequent right conferred on those entities to invite Russia to their aid, Russia invaded Ukraine (not just Donetsk and Luhansk) in February 2022, attacking Ukranian positions in Kyiv in particular.
The “Montevideo” argument does not protect that action.
And of course the Montevideo criteria for statehood:
a. permanent population;
b. a defined territory;
c. government; and
d. capacity to enter into relations with the other states.”
fail as
Donetsk and Luhansk do not have a defined territory; the front line between Russia & Ukraine changes daily.
The “government” is merely an administration appointed by the Putin regime.
The list of “other states” into which Donetsk and Luhansk are claimed to have entered into relations (Russia, NK & Syria) is laughable.
Finally, the ratifications of the Montevideo Convention don’t include Russia or Ukraine and are exclusively geographically American.
So difficult to see why Ukraine in particular should be bound by it.
https://www.jus.uio.no/english/services/library/treaties/01/1-02/rights-duties-states.xml
Ratifications as of May 2016
Number of ratifications: 16
Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, United States of America, Venezuela.
All the best,
John
Yes, I see. I’m not going to argue Int Law but I expect they might say that Montevideo is widely accepted as “Int. Customary Law”?
Ukraine was bound by the UNSC resolution which enshrined Minsk II and which it failed to implement in 7 years. This is the most important rationale for me personally.
I also think that the territories are defined (notwithstanding contact lines) and have been defined as Soviet and then Ukrainian Oblasts since I believe before the 2nd world war.
And I’m sure there would counter-arguments and on and on. The point then being that what we have are differing and various legal positions. No Court with agreed jurisdiction has actually weighed in. Therefore there is not yet a legal/Illegal verdict. All such pronouncements are opinions.
Another reality is that these types of verdicts are historically made by the victors and that determination remains to be seen.
Hi intp1
It doesn’t sound like you are standing by Joe Lauria’s arguments!
I don’t think that Lauria is a legal scholar, nor am I.
But I have been trained in logic as part of a career in mathematics.
Hard to see how Ukraine can be bound by a convention to which only some American States and none outside the Americas subscribe.
And of course the convention does not protect the Russian attack on Kyiv and the rest of Ukraine excluding Donetsk and Luhansk.
So really a load of rhubarb intended to impress a casual reader. That’s not aimed at you btw.
All the best,
John
I realize Lauria doesn’t cite the deliberate non-compliance with Minsk probably because one would technically need a further UNSC to actually do something about it. But the Realpolitic bottom line is- we have a nuclear super-power who has gone the diplomatic track, did not ask for the Donbass to be independent, refused the Donbass’ requests to be annexed for several years, wrote a letter of request for discussions and was given two fingers. They are now done with such niceties and have signed an agreement with the bullied Donbass then walked over to punch the itinerant, Nazi neighbor, Kiev, in the face.
Here also is some Maths- Zelensky has called his gang of backers in for a fight and has to date lost 1/2 of its army (c, 200,000 people) , conservatively 2500 tanks, 400 jets (they started with c. 120) Russia suffered a significant fraction of damage in return and says it intends to keep up steady momentum. Russia has 10,000 tanks, over a thousand jets and the best air defenses in the world to play with AND they are churning out more every hour. At the inevitable end, as usual, the Victors will prosecute the war crimes on the soil on which they were perpetrated and that will determine the outcome of this little debate with any serious practicality.
Whether Putin is the devil or a hero, that is the military maths and not forgetting the other military Behemoth in the school yard stands right behind them economically and if necessary, militarily.
The only scenario where it could even be a tie would be Nuclear Armageddon where you and I and everyone we know becomes ash or suffers a horrible sickness and death. I am not certain that the rabid Neocons who’s objective is Russia’s downfall (not as the claim to save Ukraine and are the West’s overlords for now) are insane enough to go there, do you think they are? Because if they dont go there, they may as well make a deal now and go home.
Dear mr Murray,
Thank you for bringing this article by mr Hersh to my attention. I do not know quite what to believe. But living in Norway there are few facts omitted, or at least aspects, that trouble me. 1. Norway leaks like a sieve. Also the military is very much a citizen soldier. The current government has soft communists in it. It is not credible that such an operation would be sanctioned let alone not leaked. Were it leaked it would be simple and total political suicide. The downside totally outweighs any gain. 3. Mr Stoltenberg is a socialist, not mentioning that fact is strange, overegging the pudding. 3. The royal Swedish navy has NEVER succeeded in forcing a Russian submarine to the surface. That is an error. Which makes one distrustful of the rest of the article. I cannot say so much about the u.s. end of things but in bringing in us Scandies into the weave mr Hersh suddenly seems much less credible.
Stoltenberg a socialist?
Presumably in the same way that Starmer is. He is (was?) a member of Norway’s Labour Party and when he became PM was described as Norway’s Tony Blair.
Probably a national one.
It could be that the story is basically accurate with a few falsehoods thrown in ,i.e. Norway’s involvement, so the story can be discredited in its entirety while being mostly true. Intel agencies obviously realise big secrets are hard to keep secret, and getting out ahead of leaks – injecting minor falsehoods – is a really smart strategy.
I also believe one of Hersh’s other big stories, had a misleading falsehood in it, based on an event at which the late Robert Fisk spoke about attribution.
As for Norway. Citizens in equally transparent, open Sweden were shocked by the revelations in the WikiLeaks cables, highlighting Swedish PM and FM Carl Bildt’s behaviour : https://www.thelocal.se/20130315/46746/
It’s your easy-going, friendly Nordic ways….too trusting.
According to twitter metrics this has only had 35 views …https://twitter.com/shuttletvnews/status/1624008542855258112
Hello Goose.
Surely Mr Hersh should be aware of the “discrediting” strategy that you describe & not publish based on a single anonymous source?
All the best,
John
Hi
It’s problematic, I agree.
Ideally he’d have multiple sources, independent of each other, to verify this story. Even the most notorious source of all time, ‘Deep Throat’ was a compilation of sources. But Mr. Hersh is 85, and probably hasn’t got the investigative energies of his younger self.
The main problem we face as ‘open’ societies, is the ‘free’ press; with their big legal departments; investigative capability and access; resources and energy to investigate, basically couldn’t give a damn. As Glenn Greenwald highlighted, they see themselves as govt employees, and spokespeople, rather than those who should be holding power to account. They’ve been told they are in an ‘information war’ and thus need to pick a side, and many of them believe it.
oh, come on! It was a covert operation! Nobody expects many sources available for every journalist!
It’s not the problem of the quantity of sources. The question is – is the info true or not?
We should know the source and the circumstances under which the source gave the information, then only we could make our opinions on the reliability of the info itself. It may turn true, or may not.
Both options do not necessarily depend on Mr. Hersh’s reputation. What if he was fed misinformation? Misinformed of time, place etc., misinformed of participants’ roles, misinformed of some key detail, misinformed intentionally or unintentionally etc etc
An investigation could give an answer. Today, it is just a version.
However, this version will add new options for the possible outcome of the current conflict.
Tatyana
It’s absurd how they are attacking Seymour Hersh. While not lifting a finger to investigate it themselves.
Honestly, the politicians and media here are so Russophobic, they’d see any real investigation and the truth, as a ‘gift to Putin.’
You saw Zelensky’s rock star treatment? With a female BBC journo almost throwing her panties at him. And the Speaker of the House of Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle (a complete prat btw) looking like a lovestruck teen meeting his idol and receiving an autographed(?) fighter pilot’s helmet.
Zelensky pleaded to be given ‘wings’. Our govt said that’s not practical due to the logistics and maintenance support required to keep fighters in the air. They are thus sending him a 24 pack of Red Bull instead.
Let them attack the messenger if they wish. It has nothing to do with the information revealed. They use this tactic on every person delivering what they belive to be pro-Russian. It’s their choice. It’s their life. They do what they chose to do. What’s the problem?
As to Ze thing, I don’t care. I’ve seen Guaido welcomed in the US Congress, so what? Where is Guaido now?
Who cares of another show, it’s war going on.
By the waaaay 🙂 Goose 🙂 I’ve even seen the president of Ukraine playing piano 🙂 with his penis!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpJjgvXKjic
“Surely Mr Hersh should be aware of the “discrediting” strategy that you describe”
Perhaps he is aware that the “discrediting” strategy only works on those who believe that if a story is untrue in any part, it is untrue in all parts. I agree those sort of people are not few, but they are not, I would hope, the majority.
Bayard.
I do wonder what possible incentive or motive, someone central to this operation would have to leak this? Certainly not financial. Why doesn’t this covert operation have a name? A name would make it far harder for authorities to dismiss if the source had named it.
Hersh is hardly some unknown figure to the so-called alphabet agencies. There will likely be a file on him and his activities, contacts etc. And his movements will likely be monitored because of his previous work breaking big national security stories. Thus, any source would be very wary sharing information with him. I don’t think Hersh has become part of the system. No reason to believe that. But nothing can be ruled out in the strange world of spooks and espionage; lots of 1960s-70s rebels became establishment loyalists, less so vice versa.
Everyone knows the US is obsessive about secrecy and ruthless with its whistleblowers – that aggressiveness should raise concerns in the populace as to just what secrets (beyond technical capability) these people are so doggedly protecting? It’s not as though the US fears any other military foe. They’re now seriously war-gaming a conflict with China, with pilots from multiple nations taking part in exercises simulating that conflict.
“I do wonder what possible incentive or motive, someone central to this operation would have to leak this?”
ISTM pretty likely that the source was an anglophile Republican. The fallout is going to land on Biden and his Democrats. Sure, a lot of shit is going to stick to the US as a nation, but when have they ever cared about that? “You and whose army?” has always been their motto.
C. Paus
First off, it is not so much Hersh that say how the sabotage went down, it is his source.
Of course such a operation would not go through any government, this is covert-top secret- gladio-style sabotage,
and scandinavians are one of the most pro-american nations on earth, they have been aiding and commiting covert action against Russia (and Soviet) past decades.
“Wikileaks: How Sweden is intercepting up to 80% of Russia’s telecommunications and passing it to the NSA”
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/821215186350702592
During the cold war Sweden sent spy planes toward the border of Soviet union on behalf for US and UK intelligence services
https://www.stagnes.eu/travel/spy-plane-disappeared
The planes were shot down.
Dear Mr Jack,
You are missing the point, maybe deliberately. Living in Scandinavia, I am convinced that the Norwegian – and for that matter, the Swedish – military are both fairly incompetent (renting secret u boat bases to Russians etc.) and under political control. We have open societies, nothing like actively assisting in blowing up these pipelines could be kept quiet. Furthermore, even if it was true, there is an active anti-NATO campaign in Norway (a NATO member) and Sweden even though it is applying to join NATO, there is considerable resistance to the idea. Hence, the risk of playing into the hands of the anti-NATO factions far outweigh any advantgages, whatever they may be, in addition to bringing down the governments forthwith. No, by revealing an uncritical ignorance of Scandinavian affairs and basing so much of his article on help and prowess from Norway and Sweden, Mr Hersh jeopardises whatever else he wishes to convey. What else has he swallowed, or is he simply sloppy?
As an aside, I fail to see the relevance of bringing in the shooting down of the Swedish Dakota in 1952. Crumbs it is 70 years ago. As a history lesson, well how far back do you want to go? The Russo-Swedish wars of the 14th century? Of course Swedish military is friendly and helpful towards the USA military. Nothing wrong in that, breaks no international law. They just try to keep it quiet – remember my point about anti- NATO faction in Sweden. But thank you, in a way you help show that the Russians are not above committing illegal acts in the Baltic, as the eight young Swedes were murdered in international air space/waters. To share intelligence data is a very long way indeed from assisting in acts of sabotage. To conflate the two is to deliberately muddy the waters for reasons that only helps to serve whoever did this. N.b. The Russians actually committed two illegal acts in 1952, as they also shot down the rescue aeroplane, a Catalina. Nuff said.
C. Paus
Again, these nations are in the pocket of the americans, Sweden is one of the most pro american nations
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/international-public-opinion-of-the-u-s-remains-positive/
My point is scandinavia is not as innocent as you naively seems to believe, they work with the US covert and overtly.
Recently there was even a new law in Sweden that now forbids swedish journalists to report certain activities by swedish allies (read the USA)!
“Swedish media outlets who uncover news which damages Sweden’s relations abroad could be charged with spying.”
https://www.thelocal.se/20171207/new-law-could-see-swedish-media-prosecuted-for-espionage/
Again, this sabotage operation: that is the preparation, is of course not seen by any government.
Just accept that swedes, norweigans are as dirty as the americans are in this business, dont be naive.
Adding to that
Sweden and Finland might soon have US bases on their soil.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/01/21/f28e-j21.html
“The agreements, which would allow US troops to operate unhindered on both countries’ territories, and store weaponry and other equipment at advanced bases, would strengthen Washington’s ability to open up a northern front in its drive to subjugate Russia to the status of a semi-colony and seize control of its natural resources.”
Dear mr Jack,
I would prefer to keep epithets out it. Well, I am not naive, thinks I. You put up som false analogy about events of 70 years ago. I addressed that. So then you skip that and go on to the next “fact”. I am certain you can keep on doing so ad naseum. You are correct in that Norway and Sweden are friendly to the USA. Yup, spot on. And pray, what is wrong in that? Norway is a member of a military alliance with the USA, that entails a modicum of cooperation, Sweden is a wannabe member. To be friendly with an Ally is not suspect in any way. Please do consider my basic point which you have avoided in doing as it is uncomfortable for your point of view. Norway and Sweden leak like sieves. The civil service is left wing riddled with anti NATO sympathisers. If there was a smidgin of fact it would be leaked at once and please also consider this, it would kill the current Norwegian gov. Which is dependent on the votes of the far left party SV. SV is a Party deeply split about NATO. I have lived in these countries most of my life. I have torn out my hair, what is left of it, over the blundering naivety of the establishments. Only last week an Iranian born Russian spy was convicted in Sweden. He was working for säpo the counter intelligente police. Heavens above. There is an ongoing trial in Norway where the Pride and joy of the Navy rammed and was sunk by a tanker that the Crew (full sex equality on the bridge) thought was land. Incomptence and not competence is what is relevant. Two years ago the Russians were about to buy Bergen engines, they make ships engines, including navy engines. Naivety, naivety. In Sweden they are not worried about the Russians, this as Sweden has the world’s best “genus försvar” (gender defence). The head of the army marching, well ambling at the head of the”pride” festival. No, we are miles ahead of the Russians there. A bit heavy handed I admit, but the point is that Scandinavian countries whilst very USA friendly, are not uncritically so and are so useless from a skulduggery point of view.
So, qui bono, ? Now who would have the benefit of using this affair to stir up more anti NATO sentiment? Hmmmm, I wonder.
As I have said I pass no comment on the USA side of things. But in promoting Norway and Sweden into the plot so heavily somebody over egged the pudding. Too greedy. Less is more and all that. Mr Hersh has no doubt done sterling work in the past. But one is only as good as the last job. Lord Dacre anyone?
C. Paus
I have no idea what you are trying to say by now.
I do not know what I can say for you to understand that scandinavians are not more innocent than any other. You seems to have a glorified image of these nations. You need to drop that.
And the reason I refered to Sweden’s covert collaboration with the US is jus because of that, it was secret, it was against the swedish law which stipulated that Sweden should be neutral between the east/west block.
Like the Wikileaks link also prove, swedes had no idea that Sweden passed on intelligence ot the US.
Thus why should anyone be surprised if Norway or Sweden was really involved in this sabotage? You seems to doubt that even the US was involved, what is your angle with all these comments?
“You are correct in that Norway and Sweden are friendly to the USA. Yup, spot on. And pray, what is wrong in that?”
I’ll let Mr Kissinger answer that, “To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.”
AG
can I please ask you to check some news?
Allegedly, Frau Baerbock called a mistake her words that Europe “is waging war against Russia.” Tagesspiegel interview.
Another piece, Bild reported that the chancellor’s office was carefully recording Baerbock’s missteps, despite the lack of public criticism of the minister by Chancellor Scholz. Allegedly, Bild referred to sources in the government.
Thank you.
TATYANA
here the TAGESSPIEGEL Interview
(I dont´read TS, allegedly they are bastards, loyal to power and government. No clue if its true. But I do believe they are right wing. Which doesn´t mean one cannot learn something there. As we all are historians here, I guess).
“It’s all up to the Russian president”
Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock on the preconditions for an end to the war in Ukraine, further arms deliveries, the balloon affair and the earthquake in Turkey and Syria
Q: Ms. Baerbock, are we at war with Russia?
A: No. Russia is attacking Ukraine with the aim of destroying this country. It is also attacking our European peace order. That is why it has been so important that we have maintained the greatest international unity in our efforts since the Russian war of aggression began on February 24 a year ago. And that is both in supporting Ukraine in exercising its right to self-defense and in defending the United Nations Charter and the European peace order.
Q: We allude to your testimony before the Council of Europe, where you said in English, “We are fighting a war against Russia.”
A: I realize that. But especially in such difficult times, when we are walking a very, very fine line, when things are deliberately misinterpreted again and again, the context is crucial. In the specific situation, many questioners in the Council of Europe accused me of saying that Germany would let Ukraine down if we didn’t deliver battle tanks immediately. That is why I made it clear that we would support Ukraine in defending itself. I pleaded for us as Europeans not to point fingers at each other, but to ensure that Ukraine can finally live in peace again. And I also wanted to make it clear that the attack on Ukraine is also an attack on our European peace order and the United Nations Charter.
SPD parliamentary group leader Rolf Mützenich accuses you of having strengthened Russian propaganda with this statement. Did you do that?
The Russian regime and Vladimir Putin try to exploit every statement I make for their propaganda. They do the same when I say, “Today is Saturday.
You are known for your direct way of expressing yourself and also for emotional messages. For example, you like to tell of encounters with people, often those with women or children, and combine this narrative with a political statement. Is the price of this communication a greater susceptibility to error?
There’s a saying that goes: If you don’t make mistakes, you don’t live. It’s important to me to show people that foreign policy is not an abstract matter, but that it has to do directly with them and their lives. I want to make politics for people.
How could this war end?
With peace. That is the overriding goal of our actions. Over the past twelve months, the German government and more than 100 other countries have repeatedly made it clear to Russia that we can talk at any time. But the response each time has been more bombs and missiles on innocent people. It’s all up to the Russian president. Russia’s war in Ukraine has been killing people every day for a year. Putin launched this brutal war of aggression. And he could end it immediately.
He is unlikely to do so. What way do you see to bring an end to the war closer?
Like so many others, I would like nothing more than for this war to stop. That’s what I’m working for. Every day. I understand that many people wish that they could sit down at the table and talk to each other, so that the war would just end. Unfortunately, that won’t work as long as the Russian president has set his mind on wiping out his neighboring country. Therefore, as difficult as it is, we have to face the fact that certainties that have been trusted so far no longer work. The Russian president is not acting according to the logic of a democracy. Russia is ruled by an autocrat. The opposition is in prison. People who demonstrate against this war are arrested, young men are forcibly recruited. We will therefore continue to support Ukraine in protecting human lives until Russia’s killing comes to an end.
You spoke out early on in favor of a quicker decision on the delivery of Leopard 2 battle tanks. Have you encouraged partners to put pressure on Germany because of the Chancellery’s rather hesitant stance?
No. In this year of terror, we as a federal government have faced and continue to face difficult trade-offs. As Foreign Minister, my role in EU and NATO formats and bilateral meetings often makes me the first point of contact on what we can do together to help Ukraine defend its people. Of course, I conduct these discussions with the same goal as the chancellor, and that is to work together to support Ukraine while not putting ourselves at risk. We may have different offices and perhaps differ as persons, but we are in complete agreement on the goal.
Die Zeit” reports that you acted behind the chancellor’s back, for example by campaigning in London for the delivery of British battle tanks. Was that the case?
Not at all. Like the chancellor and the defense minister, I constantly exchange views with our partners on how we can provide Ukraine with further military support. This is my job. And because at the time some were accusing us of not acting decisively enough, it was of course also about what the British were doing. They were considering supplying Challenger tanks at the time. We were on the verge of the Marder decision. Precisely because I thought it was wrong to accuse Germany of being a procrastinator, I also kept asking in my various conversations what others were supplying.
However, you had already publicly called for a quick decision on battle tanks for Ukraine in the fall.
Again, these are difficult decisions. We are not talking about toys, but about heavy war material. That’s why it’s important to keep carefully weighing up how we can best protect lives. And at the same time – this is the other side of our responsibility – you have to keep imagining what will happen if Ukraine can’t defend itself. Then cities like Kharkiv will be besieged and shelled again, entire villages razed to the ground, and women, children, grandparents will have to flee their homes. It is a tightrope walk. Time also plays an important role in saving lives.
The chancellor warned in the Bundestag this week that public dissent over arms deliveries would only help Putin. Do you agree?
Yes. That’s why I said in the Council of Europe that we as Europeans must stand together because the Russian president is attacking the European peace order.
So you did not refer to the Chancellor’s admonition?
No.
Your demand for a quick decision was not a dissent?
We have all never experienced a situation like this before. In my view, there’s nothing wrong with weighing things up thoroughly within a government, and also with each other. That’s what democracy is all about.
The Ukrainian president has reiterated the demand for combat aircraft. What is the political difference between a battle tank that Germany wants to supply and a combat aircraft that Germany does not want to supply?
That’s not a debate we’re having. What is important is that previous decisions are also implemented swiftly. We are currently seeing a Russian offensive in which new waves of forced mobilized troops are being thrown at Ukrainian positions in complete contempt of their own soldiers. In this situation, we are supplying battle tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, ammunition, artillery and air defense.
But the debate has already fully erupted, the British are already training Ukrainian pilots on Western aircraft …
I am aware of that.
Ukraine is supposed to win the war. Does that include the reconquest of Crimea?
Crimea belongs to Ukraine and it was occupied by Russia in 2014 in violation of international law.
Should negotiations take place, will Ukraine have to make territorial concessions?
We are helping Ukraine to defend its freedom, including its territorial integrity. It is up to Ukraine alone to decide whether and how to negotiate, not up to us.
How will Russia react if Ukraine liberates Crimea?
In the last twelve months, things have happened in Europe that I would never have imagined: Russian soldiers deliberately put mines in children’s toys. People were shot in cold blood in Butscha on their way back from shopping on their bicycles. Teenagers were abducted and raped. Destroying infrastructure in the winter to systematically let people freeze to death and die of thirst at -15 degrees. These are obviously all war crimes, crimes against humanity. So for us it is central that these crimes come to an end as soon as possible. That is our goal as an international community.
What are you doing to create conditions for negotiations?
We are coordinating closely with our international partners and forging alliances against the brutal violation of the UN Charter. The 143 states that have condemned this war of aggression in the United Nations did not fall from the sky. Many countries said at the beginning of the war that it was a European war. Particularly during my time as chairwoman in the circle of G7 foreign ministers, we convinced more skeptical countries that this war also affected them. Because if we accept that a stronger country invades its weaker neighbor and everyone just stands by and watches, virtually no country can sleep soundly any more. That would be the end of international law. Diplomacy is laborious – all the more so in times of this complete breach of the rules. But we were able to achieve, among other things, that the access of the International Committee of the Red Cross to Ukraine has improved and that experts from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) are on site at the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant to ensure a minimum of security and protection for employees in a highly dangerous situation. It is not diplomacy that is lacking, but Putin’s willingness to desist from his madness.
Since China’s President Xi Jinping condemned the possible use of nuclear weapons on the sidelines of the German Chancellor’s visit, there have been no more nuclear threats from the Kremlin. Do you see a connection?
Yes, of course. As the G20 – which, after all, includes not only the Western G7 countries, but also countries like China, India, Brazil and Indonesia – we have made it clear that Russia must not resort to nuclear weapons under any circumstances in its war of aggression against Ukraine. Russia has been isolated on this issue. Here you can see how important it is to forge these international alliances.
The spy balloon affair dramatically worsens China-U.S. relations. Is the German government in solidarity with the USA?
Balloon sounds harmless at first. But it wasn’t a balloon. It is a serious matter when a spy balloon flies into U.S. airspace without U.S. consent. That is a breach of internationally agreed rules. When others violate international law, we stand by our partners and the rules-based order.
Ms. Baerbock, well over 20,000 people have died in the earthquakes in Syria and Turkey. What aid must Germany provide?
The scale of this catastrophe deeply shocks me, as it does all of us. You have to imagine it: Parents are trying to rescue their children from the rubble with their bare hands. Everyone in Germany knows someone who has relatives or acquaintances in the region. I am deeply impressed by the willingness to help, also in our country. To help rescue those buried under rubble, we sent several rescue and search teams to the affected areas in Turkey immediately after the earthquakes. Now the Bundeswehr is bringing additional tents, blankets, heating equipment, medicines and generators to Turkey, which are particularly urgently needed in this acute phase after the quakes and the difficult weather conditions on the ground. In Syria, the situation is even more complicated, as the suffering of the people was already huge due to the ongoing conflict. The earthquakes have made the situation even worse. We are providing aid on the ground, through the aid organizations. And we are doing everything we can to reach the people in the affected areas, despite the cynical policies of the Syrian regime. As a first step, we very quickly released an additional 25 million euros for United Nations aid funds.
You have spoken out in favor of opening the border between Syria and Turkey. Will you also campaign for this with the Syrian and Russian regimes?
Right at the beginning of this catastrophe, I campaigned internationally, including to Russia, for the Syrian regime to agree to open the border crossings. For years, it has been anything but easy to get humanitarian aid into Syria. The United Nations depends on a border crossing because of the Syrian blockade. In order for aid to reach the people, other border crossings have to be opened. In a situation like this, you have to use every diplomatic channel you have.
She sounds like Richard Nixon reborn.
“I want peace too. But peace with honor.”
Baerbock and von der Leyen, Sanna Marin et al, all sound so moralistic, so sure in the righteousness of their cause, it blinds them to all other options. Like say finding an imperfect solution that ends the fighting. Ukraine could continue the struggle diplomatically, saving Ukrainian and Russian lives.
We’ve got politicians so used to cancel culture and zero toleration for certain views, they think the same absolutist approach can be brought to conflict resolution. Russia must be totally defeated! Putin must immediately withdraw from all Ukraine including Crimea! They just aren’t being sensible or realistic.
Ukraine can’t even initiate those peace negotiations because US,UK and EU won’t allow it.
The US, UK and EU leadership are in agreement, in that they don’t want a ‘frozen conflict,’ whereby a ceasefire is agreed with Russia retaining captured territory in the east. Because they believe Zelensky can’t survive that politically; in the eyes of Ukrainians and hardline fighters, he would have failed.
Hello Goose.
Do you really think that the Putin regime’s war aims in Ukraine are anything other than absolutist?
In fact, what do you believe them to be?
Of course they just are being sensible and realistic? ?
Good night.
John
Hi John,
I’d assume their ambitions are limited to fully controlling the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhia regions?
Many politicians in the UK and US are talking in apocalyptic terms, conjuring images of Russian tanks rolling ever westwards in an attempt to ‘recreate the Soviet era Warsaw Pact, by force. I don’t share that belief. There are clearly many in European countries bordering Ukraine who think that’s rubbish too – countries that want Zelensky to hammer a peace deal out, which cedes territory for peace, where sensible, so they can get their suffering economies back on track.
Putin is relatively cool-headed, certainly compared to Medvedev and the other likely contenders. If Putin goes and there’s a power vacuum in the Kremlin. Well, there’s a saying: be careful what you wish for.
The aim is simple: to destroy the American proxy built against Russia. And this is exactly why Sleepy Joe got so pissed off. United States have no serious economic interests in Ukraine nor do they have any cultural connections to Ukraine. So the one and only interest US have in Ukraine is for Ukraine to be an anti-Russian proxy. This is why Russo-Ukrainian war is taken very differently by the US than, say, the Iran-Iraq war of 1980-8 (of which some American politician wisely commented that “the only problem with this war is that some day it’s going to end”) or the numerous Indo-Pakistani wars which Uncle Sam did not give a damn about. US can’t afford to lose their asset that they heavily invested into, but neither can Putin afford such an American asset to exist next door to Russia – just like JFK could not afford Russian nukes in Cuba. This is why our world is going down the spiral now.
And talk about human rights etc. is just BS for the masses. Just of note, when Operation Desert Storm began around 7,000 Iraqi civilians were killed by air strikes even before the invasion of the ground forces began, but who cares? And the war in Ukraine passed the 7,000 mark of dead civilians only this January, according to UN. And, BTW, this includes civilians killed by both sides.
It’s puzzling how, when the Russian government has clearly stated their war aims in Ukraine many times, that there is so much mystery in the West as to what those aims are. Of course, the argument that the stated aim of the Russians can’t be there real aim because they always lie, is convenient, because it allows its proponent to put forward their own idea of what those aims might be, an idea of what they want them to be. However, as an argument it’s also facile.
Tatyana
any idea what date for the BILD item?
No idea, sorry. It was just put together in one short piece of news and I smelled something in the wording, so I decided to ask you for help.
Thank you very much, AG.
I was right in my feeling, the sense of manipulation 🙂
Don’t look for the Bild, it’s clear already.
Can I payback with a sort of joke?
Putin in Austria, summer 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYo1GvFDEnY
;-)))
THX!!
(not possible to show on German TV NOW, naturally. Austrian? Difficult, to put it mildly)
Speaking on propaganda this one below is very typical how it works in the west:
” German foreign minister admits blunder
Annalena Baerbock clarified a remark made at the European Council about “fighting a war against Russia” ”
“According to Baerbock, her words had been deliberately misinterpreted by the “Russian regime’s propaganda. ”
https://swentr.site/news/571338-german-foreign-minister-mistake-war-russia/
If Russian media simply write what Bearbock said, it is considered: “russian propaganda” even though it is a fact what she said!
To be fair, Frau Baerbock mentioned that the context is important. The same said Putin when commenting on his phrase about nukes.
Remember, we discussed it recently? John Kinsella was bringing the phrase taken out of the context.
I had to look for the source and found out that the phrase was used for anti-Russian propaganda by that nasty person Julia Davis. The Daily Beast columnist, Atlantic Council employee, and a sample journalist in the Integrity Initiative manual for agents.
Visit here
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/daily-beast_gonzo-journalism_integrity-initiative/
@Tatyana how does the context matter in this case? Sometimes it’s because they said the quiet part out loud because the setting was meant to be friendly and protected, for example. That rarely changes the significance of the words. In Baerbock’s case, I hardly see how that makes her very direct statement less ominous and problematic.
It’s one thing if she had acknowledged she mispoke once the sentence became so visible. But of course not. I think you are giving her too much leeway.
Here is the speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5TEkOO3OVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_1n-CDgPT8
“we are fighting a war against russia”
Bearbock seems terribly amateurish, not the kind of leaders Germany need in these times.
Hi Tatyana.
As you mentioned my name, perhaps you might clarify my error, as you see it?
(You said that I was bringing the phrase taken out of context?).
Thanks,
John
State and corporate stenographer journalists are actually intelligent individuals. If they thought about it, they would realise that the narrative that Russia blew up its own pipeline is obvious nonsense.
But they are convinced it is morally wrong to think about it.
You are too honest possibly.
Some are convinced it’s morally wrong. Most benefit directly from the outcome and do not care about what is right or wrong, as long as it benefits them. They may benefit through personal enrichment, or just by keeping their job. What would happen to a decent journalist say at the Guardian today who would raise his hand?
or as “naked capitalism” put it in a slightly different context:
“On the one hand, it can seem churlish to question efforts to revive the enfeebled left. On the other, in the US, first the great reduction in funding of state schools and the explosion in college costs due to “access” to student debt has cut into the pool of young people who could serve as activists. They can’t afford an arrest for protesting because that could impair their ability to get hired. And a debt millstone forces them into being careerists, whether they wanted that or not.”
I recommend this interview – I am too lazy to translate now though (you know
whohow to) [ Mod: Done ] – with Andrej Hunko, member of German THE LEFT PARTY, and also member of the Ukraine-OSCE mission. A decent guy –among others he also touches on the subject of Baerbock – who truly appears to be incompetent, early on I tried to defend her, out of fairness, but those times are way past – the Panzer question and some more:
* * *
Interview with Andrej Hunko, member of the Bundestag.
Q: German Foreign Minister Baerbock gave a speech to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg on January 24. There she made highly problematic remarks. Can you briefly report on that?
A: The German foreign minister gave this speech in question. Actually, it was about the fourth summit of the Council of Europe. There have been only three summits at the level of heads of state and government. A summit in Reykjavik is targeted for May. But it was also about the Ukraine war. At the end of these speeches, there is always an opportunity for MEPs to ask questions. There, a British MP asked her about the Leopard tank deliveries, which had not yet been released at that point. He had sharply criticized her for this. To which she replied, “We are fighting a war against Russia, not against each other.” That is already a very outrageous statement for a foreign minister, because it implies that the countries of the Council of Europe, including Germany, are formally at war with Russia.
How is that to be assessed?
It is de facto a declaration of war, maybe by mistake, but maybe not. Maybe it was not consciously, but it probably corresponds to their thinking. The Foreign Office had to row back, the German ambassador in Moscow was summoned. A faux pas of the first order! If there is a reason for resignation from the highest diplomatic job of a country, then surely such a misleading declaration of war. The whole thing joins statements that are nothing but embarrassing. When Annalena Baerbock is not reading from her script, confused things often come out of her mouth. I only recall the “tank battles of the 19th century,” the countries that are “hundreds of thousands of kilometers away,” or the “German colonial history in Nigeria. All this has nothing to do with reality anymore. But with this statement in the Council of Europe, there is a dangerous component in addition to the embarrassment. One does not play with declarations of war. One would like to see a foreign minister who thinks before he or she says something.
How did the foreign minister react after this statement made waves?
There was hardly any reaction in the mainstream media at first. There is a statement from the Foreign Office trying to set the record straight to some extent: We are not at war with Russia, of course. But other than that, I haven’t heard much. The statement was only noticed after quite a few social media picked it up, after which it was mentioned in the daily newspapers. I am not aware of any statement from her herself. The Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman also asked, “Do you yourself understand what you are talking about?”
How did it finally become an issue?
It didn’t really take off in Germany until Thursday. On Tuesday, Annalena Baerbock had made the statement. On Wednesday, the first reports came that Olaf Scholz was now positive about the delivery of battle tanks after all. That very much overshadowed the whole controversy. As far as I know, it only surfaced sporadically in the German public on Thursday. So it was not a big issue. That also has to do with the fact that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is not perceived that way in public. It remains to be seen whether Annalena Baerbock let the cat out of the bag or whether this was a deliberate statement. She will certainly think so. But she has often blabbed in a highly embarrassing manner, including when she said: “I’m not interested in my voters. Officially, however, she has not retracted this statement.
You’ve already said that only a few newspapers picked up on it …
Yes, they were mainly concerned with the fact that the Russians were now exploiting it for propaganda purposes. On the same day, the first reports came from “Der Spiegel” that the Leopard tank deliveries were now being released by Olaf Scholz. Four days earlier, there was a meeting at the U.S. military base in Ramstein, Germany, which had come about at the invitation of the U.S. defense minister. It was actually assumed that Olaf Scholz and the new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius would give the green light for the deployment of Leopard battle tanks there. But they did not do so.
Why did Scholz change his mind?
After the meeting in Ramstein, the pressure on Scholz continued to build, especially in the media. Then, on Tuesday evening, January 24, the first reports came that Leopard battle tanks would be released for delivery after all.
Something that was hardly noticed in this country is remarkable: On Saturday, January 21, one day after the decision in Ramstein not to deliver battle tanks for the time being or “to check this out”, there was an editorial by the entire editorial board in the “Washington Post” with the title: “Germany is refusing to send tanks to the Ukraine – Biden cannot let this stand”. This means nothing else: One does not accept a sovereign decision of Germany, and the president has to act in this sense. This is outrageous! Only a few days later, the decision was made to deliver battle tanks after all. It is interesting to note that the first announcement did not come officially from the government. On Tuesday evening, influential media already set it as a fact, without any verification of it, because the whole thing referred to an assumption of the “Spiegel”. Only an hour and a half earlier, the Foreign Office sent out a language regulation to all German diplomats that “no decision has yet been made” on the issue of tank delivery. Then, the next day, Olaf Scholz announced the decision on the delivery at a press conference.
What does this media process mean?
The media are trying to publicly create facts that Scholz then can’t get out of. I find that unbelievable, because we are talking about a decision of possibly historic significance. There have already been many weapons sent to Ukraine. But the deployment of battle tanks triggers particular emotions among both the Russian and the German population and is of a completely different quality again in military terms.
In what way?
The deployment of the Leopard battle tanks creates an association with the tank battles 80 years ago in the same region for very many people. Back then, the Wehrmacht’s tanks were called Puma and Tiger; today they are called Leopard, also a predatory cat. This arouses strong emotions, especially among the Russian population, because the Soviet Union suffered an extremely high number of casualties during the Second World War, with 27 million dead, most of them Russian soldiers. The Battle of Stalingrad, in which the Soviet army lost a million soldiers, the starvation of Leningrad with over a million victims, the great tank battle at Kursk, which left almost a million dead, the majority of them Soviet soldiers, is much more present in the collective consciousness in Russia than in Germany, for example. The fact that today, 80 years later, German battle tanks are again on the move in the same direction has led even Putin’s critics in Russia to get behind him.
I read in an interview with a Russian citizen: “We have definitely been divided among the Russian population on the Ukraine issue. There was no jubilation when Kiev was attacked on February 24. There was a lot of skepticism and anti-war protests. Even individual deputies publicly criticized it.” I think that represents the mood of the population quite well.
But the deployment of German battle tanks against Russia, that will completely unite the population and create a willingness to sacrifice to oppose it. The population will get even more behind Russian warfare and Putin. That is understandably very emotionally charged for people in Russia. This effect on the Russian population is also an aspect of this historic wrong decision, the consequences of which we cannot yet foresee.
What is the mood in Germany regarding this decision?
Here, too, it is emotionally charged, perhaps not as strongly as in Russia. In the last few days, as a member of parliament, I have received an increasing number of e-mails that were characterized by the utmost concern regarding this decision. There have always been people who have criticized the arms deliveries. But emotionally, too, this is a qualitative leap. The Leopard tanks are ultimately also offensive weapons.
Were there public reactions among the population?
There have been protest rallies in various cities, including my hometown of Aachen, which were larger than the previous ones. This decision mobilizes more people. If you look at the polls, you see that the population in Germany is split, so fifty-fifty. If you look at the polls by party orientation, the opinions diverge quite massively. And by far the most bellicose party, not only in its leadership but also in its electorate, is the Green Party. That’s striking. Over 80% agree that Germany should provide battle tanks and even fighter jets to Ukraine. But both battle tanks and fighter jets would lead to massive escalation.
What about the other parties?
SPD voters, which are voters of the chancellor’s party, are split; with the FDP and CDU, a clear majority is in favor; with the LEFT and the AfD, 80% are against. It’s very interesting how far apart that is.
What we are currently observing can almost make you despair: Many people react along a moral good-evil schema. An action – delivering battle tanks, for example – is no longer judged by its consequences, but by the moral motive of that action. In the past, we spoke of ethics of responsibility and ethics of mind. A foreign policy action is no longer to be rejected because it leads to disastrous consequences, but it is good because it involves a morally superior position, in this case solidarity with Ukraine. This is something in the evaluation system of many young people as well, which has changed to the point where the only thing that matters is how I feel about it myself and that it is a morally good thing. Therefore, it’s a good thing to support Ukraine, it’s a bad thing not to. Weighing the reality of what the consequences of that are, it plays almost no role in the evaluation. That is a phenomenon that I have never seen in this massiveness.
What is morally right is conveyed to people through the media and through constant manipulation?
Yes, of course, there is a lot of media manipulation. In the meantime, the whole history of the Second World War has been distorted. On January 27, as every year, we had a memorial hour in the Bundestag to commemorate the liberation of Auschwitz. For the most part, it was a good event that also touched me on a human level. This time, the focus was on the fact that people with a different sexual orientation or so-called asocials were also persecuted and murdered in the concentration camps, just like Jews. Nevertheless, in the whole framing, as they say in New German, the impression was created that the Second World War of Germany, the Wehrmacht, was primarily against Ukraine at that time. The Russian victims and the Red Army were left out. Auschwitz was somehow liberated, but by whom, that was not mentioned. There is a systematic distortion of history, which gives the impression that today’s Hitler is called Putin. Hitler would have attacked Ukraine at that time, and now Putin is doing it. Such a thing was formulated only in subordinate clauses, but it was perceptible. This is unbelievable. The view of history is adapted to the current geopolitical constellation.
Scholz is touring the world and declaring everywhere that Germany is not at war and that the tank deliveries did not lead to it …
Not only are they supplying tanks, they are also training Ukrainian soldiers in Germany on the Leopard tank. In terms of international law, the Scientific Service of the Bundestag says, in response to a question from the LEFT Party, that this means that the Federal Republic of Germany is leaving the “secure area of non-warfare.” So, we are in a gray area under international law, whether we are a party to war or not. And yet they continue.
Selensky, after all, has already called for fighter planes and warships …
Immediately after the decision to deliver tanks came a brief thank you from Selensky and then immediately the demand for warships, fighter planes and missiles. It is an ever-escalating spiral of escalation. The Russians also have a lot of potential for escalation. In my estimation, the goal of retaking Crimea strikes a Russian nerve that would escalate it much further. As for the Donbas, that is not the absolutely vital interest from the Russian side. However, Russia will not voluntarily return Crimea. The Black Sea Fleet is located there, and has been since the 18th century.
Isn’t the majority of Crimea’s inhabitants of Russian origin?
Yes, the majority of the population is Russian, unlike in the Donbas, where it is more multi-layered. In no case would the vast majority of Crimean residents be willing to be subordinated to Kiev again. A Ukrainian reconquest of Crimea would inevitably mean the expulsion of at least one million of the Russian population. In the public discussion, this is completely ignored. There are indeed considerations, and I asked Annalena Baerbock about this a week and a half ago in the Bundestag in committee, about what the territorial limitation was for tank deliveries. With such deliveries, there are always contracts for the geographical purpose, i.e. where the tank may be used. According to these criteria, Russian military should not be attacked on Russian territory. That is the official position at the moment: the tanks are allowed to operate on all territories that belong to Ukraine under international law. This explicitly implies Crimea. It is not only about the reconquest of the Donbas, but also about the reconquest of Crimea. Annalena Baerbock added that the deployment of these tanks on Russian territory was out of the question. That was the official position of the German Government, but she let it be known that she thought that was wrong, because Russian positions behind the border were also a problem. That is a position that, to my knowledge, Olaf Scholz does not share so far. Annalena Baerbock thus clearly belongs to the warmongering wing within the German government. Olaf Scholz tends to be one of the more reserved in the debate. In addition to Baerbock, the foreign minister, the chairwoman of the defense committee, Strack-Zimmermann, also belongs to the most aggressive wing.
How was Scholz put under pressure in Ramstein?
It happened on many levels. The media, or more precisely the transatlantic networks, kept building up the mood in that direction. Scholz didn’t say no in principle either, but took the position that he would deliver if the allies did the same and the U.S. provided Abrams tanks. There is now a symbolic concession that individual Abrams would also be delivered, which will probably take years to get there. But apparently he has achieved something that he can sell to the outside world. Now he can say, I’m not the ditherer after all, I just manufactured a broader alliance in the West. He can present this to the pro-war part of the German public as diplomatic cleverness. What other “instruments” he was shown or whether he has “skeletons in the closet” that are being brought out is, of course, speculation. Later, maybe once Wikileaks or a successor organization will bring to light the correspondence of these important key days. But for now, it would be pure speculation.
Is there a logical explanation why Biden did not want to deliver the Abrams but demanded that the Germans deliver the Leopard tank?
The official reasoning is that it would be incredibly complicated logistically, from fuel to other logistical issues, so it would be very difficult and take a very long time. It would also be difficult to maintain the tanks in the field, as well as the resupply and supply routes. With the Leopard tank, he said, that would be much easier. These were the official reasons from the U.S. side, but surely there was also a geopolitical motive behind it; for it has been the U.S. strategy for a hundred years to work to position Germany and Russia against each other and to prevent close cooperation. Such cooperation would challenge U.S. hegemony worldwide. The decision to send Leopard tanks will have a long-lasting effect, poisoning relations and making any cooperation much more difficult, just like the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipelines. From that point of view, the U.S. strategy is to push Germany further and further into war.
What’s going on right now is just sinister, and you wonder where the antidote is.
There is. Large parts of the world have a very different view of the war. I’ve spent the last six months – your magazine has reported on it – looking at Colombia and Brazil, and paying great attention to the elections in those two countries. What is hardly reported here in the West is that Germany sent requests to Latin American countries to see if they also supplied weapons for Ukraine. Both Lula da Silva in Brazil and Gustavo Petro in Colombia have vetoed it. So did Argentina and Chile. In Brazil’s case, it was about ammunition that Brazil was supposed to supply, but Lula da Silva vetoed that on the grounds that he wanted to remain neutral in this war in order to forge an international peace bloc, including China. I think this is a model that European countries could take as an example. Brazil is representative of large parts of Latin America, Africa and Southeast Asia. This shows that in these regions the view of this war is completely different from the bubble in which we are also kept by our media.
So this was the context of Olaf Scholz’s visit to Brazil?
Yes, also. There is a so-called “Global Outreach Strategy” in the EU, that is, a global outreach of the EU with the aim of pulling key countries around the world further into the Western camp, also on the issue of the war in Ukraine. There has been a long discussion among EU strategists about what these key countries are. They have now identified five countries: They include Brazil, Nigeria, where elections will be held in February, India, Egypt, and Kazakhstan. These are the countries, from the EU’s point of view, where there is hope to be able to pull them into the Western camp, at least in terms of sanctions, and which have great regional importance. Brazil has given Olaf Scholz a clear rejection with regard to the war and arms deliveries, and the EU will probably also cut its teeth on Nigeria and India. How Egypt and Kazakhstan will behave, I do not know. It is interesting to note that the EU is striving to politically flank NATO’s course and is increasingly becoming NATO’s extended arm in this war. The EU is trying to turn the whole world against Russia, and the countries mentioned are supposed to play a key role in this. It is positive that a G20 country such as Brazil is not participating in this and is pursuing a course towards a diplomatic solution to end the war. That gives us hope.
Mr. Hunko, thank you very much for the interview.
Interview: Thomas Kaiser
wow.
(of course I mistyped, “how” instead of “who” – or is it auto-correction?)
Anyway – thank you!
and hello btw
According to RT, the Kremlin and a Russian governor have promised bounties for destroying or capturing a working leopard tank
http://www.rt.com/russia/570701-russia-governor-bounty-tanks/
http://www.rt.com/russia/570808-russia-nato-tanks-bounties
Some of the bounties seem to apply to any equipment.
I have to read Mr Hunko’s interview. Thanks for posting it.
I live in Canada and have no problem accessing the Russian media. I find it informative and much less biased than the western mainstream media such as CBC which seems to parrot whatever the Kiev government/Washington is telling it. Interesting article in Ria Novosti about American government attitude to Germany – here is the link https://ria.ru/20230210/germaniya-1850975751.html It’s in Russian but Google translate does a fair job. I can copy/paste if you’d like to read but are blocked. I didn’t notice that much attention was paid to Baerbock and her declaration of war. I don’t understand the German government (not Baerbock – she’s an idiot) attitude. They are obviously being setup, bullied into supplying tanks, lost their good supply of natural gas, and had their pipelines blown up by the Americans, and yet said nothing. On who are the yanks really waging war?
Thomas Roper – Anti-Spiegel had an article earlier in the week about a recent Rand Report which recommended the US isn’t getting what it wants out of the Ukraine travesty and should get out. An earlier Rand Report said the Russians had no aggressive intentions towards the west and the only way to get at them was to provoke something – hence Ukraine. So Ukraine loses half a million plus men, millions displaced, plus thousands of Russian men have been lost just because Putin isn’t Yeltsin and believes Russian resources belong to the Russian people not to US interests to pillage. Now, according to Rand, Russia isn’t the big enemy, it is China so let’s go after China. China’s even bigger! The US government is insane! Just look at their reaction to the bloody balloon.
Tatyana is right. The UN report that Russia has taken in more refugees from Ukraine than any other country. I understand that Ukraine credentials are considered on par with Russian and the languages are similar – Ukraine and Polish are Russian dialects, so easier to settle in, easier to get work and little language barrier.
re: some remarks on current German domestic politics –
the German matter is complicated and I have no real insider´s knowledge since I broke with those who could supply me since the war started.
But it´s a fair guess to take into account the rogue Poles and the integrity of the EU in the East, the German government coalition´s fragility, and the lacking means to actually do anything that could prevent any US intrusion.
May be you remember that NSA had bugged German chancellor Merkel. There was a little scandal. That´s it.
(Imagine Russian FSB had been responsbile!)
Of course they were furious on the inside.
But what can you do if the other guy has the gun?
There were a lot of scandals and power struggles going on in the current German government since Greens went in and started to bring in their own people upsetting the old state officials´ elite (Baerbock office, Habeck office.)
Past summer a couple of senior advisors in the Ministry of Commerce (Habeck) fought the anti-Russian sanctions of the new Scholz government. These were senior officals of the MoC, well respected in the Ministry for many many years.
(In Germany every Ministry has this nomenklatura, state servants independent from the changing governments, they make up the major echelons of administration. If a German minister resigns it is most likely that he or she did not get along with this staff.)
But now Habeck´s people played hard-ball: They called for an internal investigation over the question whether these officials were loyal or possibly Russian influenced which of course was pure defamation.
Habeck simply wanted to get rid of them.
So if you have any dislike for Baerbock, think again: Habeck is even worse.
In praxi it meant:
Habeck would abuse domestic German Secret Service to observe them and check their entire life, communication, everything – think FBI internal division´s investigation – a serious matter – and the probable end of their careers, even without any proof for misconduct.
Which Habeck of course knew.
It was pure smear campaign of the gravest kind.
As their reputation was destroyed any way.
I don´t know how it ended. Of course it was reported only for a few days. But the fact that it was reported at all is telling enough.
(The Ministry of Commerce has probably 3000 or 4000 people working there, so there is something going on every day.)
But what was the real reason?
The old Ministry staff, those who had dealt with the Russians over NS 1&2 under Schröder and Merkel, who had set up the contracts etc, didn´t want the Nordstream pipelines being abandoned.
This was weeks well before the sabotage, but it had most likely influence on the US decision-making. Even if only in minor ways.
(I realize this only now as I write it down.)
Additionally Habeck, the nice guy, brought in his crownies from old times when he was active in Hamburg local politics.
Friends who ran environmental groups, PR campaigns etc. but who had no real experience with multi-billion Euro investments and power-plays vs. folks like those from the State Department or the Kremlin or Gazprom.
You could argue, the kids took over and realized they were in way over their heads. Habeck and Baerbock that is.
Scholz now, is an old warrior, he was once Gerhard Schröders foot-soldier.
Originated with the radical Marxists in Hamburg in the late 1970s. Back then he was a leading member of a left student delegation to Moscow.
So do not underestimate him.
Thanks AG, I will live in hope that Scholz has a solution to this mess in his pocket.
Schroeder had a former Trotskyite Fischer (Green) as Foreign Minister – Yugoslavia destroyed
Schroeder created Hartz IV to cut Social Security Costs following German Unification BECAUSE Helmut Kohl financed Unification through Social Security Funds rather than corporate taxation and thus inflated labour costs as unemployment soared in GDR.
That killed SPD. They created Burgergeld to try reverse ferret.
Habeck and Baerbock are fanatical and ignorant.
German voters put SPD at 20% and Greens at 18%
Greens have 18 directly elected seats and c 114 on the List. Baerbock is “List”
The List System means Greens are directly elected in around 6 West German cities and NOWHERE in GDR.
Some units of German Army are 40% Russian speaking Russlanddeutsche………there are 2.5 million Russlanddeutsche in Germany; about 2 million Turks, 1 million Syrians, 1 million Ukrainians.
Germany will split – there is no way SPD gets elected in GDR – no way for Greens save List and election fraud as in Berlin
“The List System means Greens are directly elected in around 6 West German cities and NOWHERE in GDR.”
Does that mean that the Greens are mainly an urban party?
The RAND report didn’t suggest the US should ‘get out’ as you put it. The UN also recognises that large numbers of Ukrainians have been tortured by Russian forces and deported to Russia against their will.
https://mediacenter.org.ua/according-to-the-un-more-than-2-5-million-ukrainians-were-deported-to-russia-but-we-do-not-know-the-true-figure-zmina-human-rights-center/
“According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the number of people who end up on the territory of the Russian federation exceeds 2.5 million.” That much from the UN, but once Aliona Luniova, Advocacy Manager at ZMINA Human Rights Center gets hold of it, it’s “deportation”. Of course, those people couldn’t have gone to Russia by their own free will, not to a country where they speak the language, more or less, and where they may have relatives, when they could have gone to the West where they know nobody and can’t understand what anybody is saying. Nor does your link say anything about torture, which presumably we have to just take your word for.
And according to Thomas Roper, who says the numbers are hard to calculate, but it is estimated that since 2014, 7-8 million Ukraines have settled in Russia.
Since they were all once Citizens of USSR they may have entitlement to Russian Passports if they do not wish Ukrainian ones – so it is difficult to know what is going on. There are so many “Ukrainians” in Germany nowadays – with some lovely SUVs – and supposedly 200,000 schoolchildren – but they seem to converse in Russian.
After all by 1970 UK had 1,000,000,000 people in the world with British Passports and the EEC demanded the 1971 Immigration Act as a pre-requisite for membership to restrict the influx. It was after all the UK that created “East Pakistan” and “West Pakistan” rather than the India ceding its sovereign territory to create Islamic Republic of Pakistan yet prior to 1947 Britain had seen no need for Partition……….just as prior to 1990 it had seen no necessity for “democracy” in Hong Kong
Excluding the occupied Crimea and Donbas regions the Russian census of 2021 showed 884,000 people of Ukrainian origin living in Russia.
ooh, Ukrainian human rights activists!
we have a popular sarcastic phrase here in Russia: “There’s never been anything like this before! And look, here it is again.”
What about Denisova? Ukrainian Ombudsman Lyudmila Denisova, parliamentary commissioner for human rights.
She attributed zoophilia, pedophilia, gerontophilia to the Russians, she made up absolutely incredible stories about rape and the like. She later explained her behavior by saying that she wanted to help Ukraine. Simply, when speaking in the Italian parliament, it seemed to her that there was too little interest. She wanted to attract attention, stir up interest, arouse sympathy.
Crazy lying sexually horny old woman. I wouldn’t be surprised if that Aliona from Zmina is her close relative.
Ukrainians, they never lied before, and look, it happens again.
“A human rights activist is, in fact, a diagnosis, that is, a special style of thinking and behavior.”
in today’s news, Dmitry Kosyrev’s opinion. It’s from his article on US campaign against China.
I would not generalize them all, but I agree that some human rights activists perform an emotional hysteria over the black fate of the unfortunate and disadvantaged. They do this for some quite dirty reasons.
https://ria.ru/20230212/lozh-1851448108.html
“There’s no other region of China, even today, covered by such a network of passenger and cargo routes as Xinjiang. Four more international routes will open this year. If you put it all together, it turns out that it’s the most open and dynamically developing part of the country today. Millions of Chinese or foreigners at any moment can fly there to look around and notice something bad, just in case.”
Dmitry writes that China is building 8 new airports in the Xinjiang Uygur region. This is in addition to the 25 already available.
While James Milward, a professor at Georgetown University, USA came out with an angry op-ed titled “China’s New Campaign Against the Uighurs.”
Dmitry says that the campaign against Xinjiang is based on theses, such as, this is a wilderness and the habitat of bears, where you can only get on a camel, and therefore you better believe the “sources” about what atrocities are happening in this lost world in the center of the Eurasian continent.
Concentration camps, up to two million people are forced to work, unfortunate Uyghur women are forced to marry Chinese and learn Chinese culture, children are driven to boarding schools, where, if they start speaking Uyghur, they are put in basements for many hours (not specified, with or without rats).
—
reminds of children, old women, cattle raped by Russians in Ukraine, oh yes, not to forget that Russian soldiers steal washing machines, electric kettles and even take asphalt with them, because you know, for us in Russia these are all unattainable miracles of civilization. Pieces of asphalt in picture frames hung on the walls like a war trophy in every Russian hut!
Ukraine: Russia’s forcible transfer and deportation of Ukrainian civilians a war crime – new report (Amnesty International UK report summary, 10 Nov 2022)
“Russian forces tortured and deported civilians from Ukraine
People detained subjected to torture – including being beaten, electroshocked and threatened with execution
Children separated from families after forcible transfer
‘No one has been spared, not even children’ – Agnès Callamard”
Ukraine: “Like A Prison Convoy”: Russia’s Unlawful Transfer And Abuse of Civilians In Ukraine During ‘Filtration’ – Amnesty International UK report (10 Nov 2022)
I should say sneak out like in Afghanistan!
The sensibles are demanding a standard of proof from Hersh they never do from US State Department or Pentagon briefings. (It’s why they’re regarded as sensibles)
US imperial strategist and ex chair of “shadow CIA” Stratfor, George Friedman, said in 2015:
“The primordial interest of the U.S., over which for a century we have fought wars — the First, Second, and Cold War — has been [to sabotage] the relationship between Germany and Russia”
Twenty years ago this week, Blair’s spin doctor Alastair Campbell issued a dossier to the British press on Iraq’s WMD. Much of it had been plagiarised from unattributed sources including passages lifted from a 12-year-old PhD thesis, complete with typographical errors. The sensibles headlined it as irrefutable, damning evidence of the Iraqi threat.
A million deaths and twenty years later Campbell is regarded as the country’s ultimate sensible — a highly respected political analyst and mental health spokesman and host of the ITV breakfast show.
Ekaterina Blinova, in Sputnik, past Thursday:
“Still, it appears that one could soon hear more about the Biden administration’s secretive and risky plot. Hersh indicated to Sputnik that more investigative pieces about the Nord Stream explosion were forthcoming, but declined to provide further details.”
Every new day comes new information. We here in Russia are so perplexed by what is happening. Everything is strange, incomprehensible, frightening. But we hope for a better future 🙂
To all Russophones, a great song, went viral here. So perfectly describes the daily mood! Who would have thought that the Dutch language is so close to Russian?
Happy Sunday morning to you, dear Russophones!
https://youtu.be/kEDUIi_XEsw
By the way, AG, just don’t let your man Pistorius know how his name sounds to the Russian ear 🙂
It’s just a subtle addition of a voice that will turn ‘st’ into ‘zd’, and voila, uh… how to put it decently… obscene word for female genitals with a pompous Latin ending.
yeah, I got enough Russian friends cursing so I know what you mean…
(However, with curses Polish, Russian, Croatian, Ukrainian, seem all very similiar, which shouldn´t surprise, since its a basic human reaction all over the world. You could argue cursing is a genuine form of internationalism and deeply leftist.)
btw New York Metropolitan now has changed the titles of a handful of Degas´ pastel paintings following what London Art Gallery already accomplished in April. To that I say bravo.
A Ukrainian art historian allegedly has been sending dozens of letters to point out that the dancers in the paintings were in fact Ukrainian. And is now pleased as punch. Wow.
Welcome to a new level of idiocy.
But I assume in NYC it’s the billionaires giving out marching orders.
Why not? Of what I’ve seen the women were dressed in ethnic Ukrainian clothes in those pastels. So, I think it’s fair, but of course I see something sinister in the very desire to go and rename the paintings of the past century.
I no longer find it funny the frenzied Ukrainian desire to disown everything Russian. Here we have specialists in history and cultural studies engaged in enlightenment. I listen to some and the pieces of the puzzle fall into place. This is due to the cult of Bandera, spreading from the western parts of Ukraine.
Bandera’s followers were a radical part of the wider Ukrainian nationalist movement, which was formed from several radical movements, sometime in the 1920s – 30s in Austria.
It was a right-wing radical movement focused on the creation of a nation state with a totalitarian political regime. A naziocracy.
Under that, it turns out, there’s a deep philosophical background. The intelligentsia of Ukraine at the beginning of the 20th century relied on Nietzsche, Spengler, Bergson, Lebon, Sorel, so that their Ukrainian form of nationalism has one terrible peculiarity. Realizing itself as part of the Russian people, but wanting to be an independent nation, the nationalist concept involves the destruction of Russia.
Literally.
They see it like that – Ukraine will not be able to stand as a separate nation as long as Russia exists. In the concept of those “philosophers” Russia is a living evidence of what kind of people Ukrainians are a part of. Therefore, it is proposed to destroy Russia and rewrite history so that Ukraine exists as an independent nation.
In their ideology, the cult of action, war and violence is considered an expression of the highest biological vitality of the nation.
Since the goals of Ukrainian nationalism coincided with the goals of NATO, Russia not only feels an existential threat, but takes it very seriously.
Hi Tatyana.
It is not surprising that a nation fighting for its life against a war of aggression should seek to emphasize its national identity.
A citizen/subject of the invading country might wish to remember that.
Ireland struggled for centuries against English occupation – gaining independence for most of the country in 1921.
We also experienced the condescension and contempt from the “mother country” that Ukraine did and does.
All the best,
John
I fear John Kinsella is letting his own idea fixe blind him to reality. Until the German Occupiers in WW1 decided they needed Ukrainian grain and had imposed Brest-Litovsk Treaty (which was harsher than Versailles 1919 on the Reich) – Ukraine was simply a border zone of the Russian Empire. It has been Germany in two world wars that created “Ukraine” – and it is only since Germany was permitted to re-unify in 1990 that it has systematically destroyed Yugoslavia by prising out Croatia; and USSR by stimulating the Ukraine issue post-1991 and Merkel using Konrad-Adenauer Stiftung and her proxy Klitschko to pursue very traditional German foreign policy objectives.
Foreign Policy is geography for every nation save those with oceans of insulation from blowback – like USA – where Foreign Policy is Ethnic Voter/Financial Interest Groups domestically seeking leverage against their heritage
TATYANA
Russia takes it as threat – rightly so.
Albeit, it was the US who eventually lifted it in a way that they made it into an offensive, overbearing into Russia project.
Initially they could have been contained to Ukraine soil, I believe.
After all most Ukrainians are decent people just like any other place.
I was surprised about these things 2022 since I grew up in a naivité where Russian or Ukrainian did not really matter, because of liberal, internationalist traditions that did exist as part of the Bolshevik movement, which had many facettes.
People tend to forget the progressive elements in the 1920s in the USSR.
As to Degas: definitely NO!
This has nothing to do with enlightenment, nothing to do with cultural understanding, nothing with a progressive project, nothing with art history as an understanding of who we are and where we come from. This is whitewashing of the craziest and most demagogic kind.
It´s pure nationalistic propaganda of the dumbest short-sightedness.
This matter should be treated just like caring for old architecture, regardless of its beauty or ugliness.
In Germany there is an office for this and laws.
You just don´t tear down buildings because they don´t appear to be “pretty”.
Because that´s just laughable and an equivalent to the logic of an 8 year old child.
While in Moscow the film museum could be dismanteld and major parts of old St. Petersburg were destroyed illegally for investors´ sake, you have major obstacles to this in Germany. There is an appreciation for “heritage” in its aesthetic and not nationalistic meaning.
(I am bringing up Russia solely because this happened when I visited 15 year ago, but of course such things happend everywhere else too.)
Just like tearing down statues of Robert E. Lee, to bring an extreme example, will not help African-Americans to escape the debt crisis, will not better the situation for Mexican refugees in the border lands.
(I know that on this blog there are entries on the problem of Nazi statues etc. This is a difficult topic and I assume one has to look at it very carefully. But I hope you get my point: We cannot change history. And destroying symbols does not absolve us of actually doing something concrete, passing laws and fighting the system. The KKK didn´t stop killing people just because it disappeared from public. It was weakend by civil resistance and laws and continuous, arduous action by grassroot movements.)
Anyway. Much of this is pure public relations.
In the same veine as diversity politics replacing Affirmative Action.
Here btw a good text by Chris Hedges from 2018:
It is about identity politics but its the same ideological trap as with Degas.
And art historians who don´t see the complexity of this issue are no art historians but incompetent propagandists.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/07/09/con-diversity
sry for my outbreak
Paul Greenwood
I think it’s even simplier. I think that next to John are Ukrainians who preferred to flee to Ireland, and not to Russia. Which by itself implies that those refugees are anti-Russian.
John is looking for similarities between Ireland vs. England, extrapolating to Ukraine vs. Russia.
If there were refugees from Donbass next to John, he might have extrapolated Irish history to the confrontation between Donbass and Ukraine. By the way, I find this a more complete analogy, since there is a desire to unite Northern Ireland with another Ireland, just like the Donbass with Russia.
Are you really Rip van Winkle and did you only wake up on the 24th February last year? Those of us who were conscious before that date are aware that Ukranian nationalism started well before then.
Ireland is not equivalent to Ukraine. The Irish were ethnically and culturally different and had a different religion and language to the English. Ireland was a separate country taken over by the English. Ukraine is a part of Russia that split off in the last century. Before it was part of Russia it was part of Lithuania, before that it was Russia. Ireland has a natural hard border, the sea. Ukraine’s borders are lines on a map, to be altered in the past at the whim of politicians. One day you are Russian, Hungarian, Romanian, or Polish, the next you are Ukranian. The Irish managed to gain independence relatively peacefully, then immediately fought a bloody civil war. The Ukranian civil war didn’t start until long after independence when powerful nations to its west started meddling with its internal affairs and organised a coup. Irish nationalism did not encompass the destruction of England, nor was Ireland ever, as a nation, ” fighting for its life against a war of aggression “. To quote the Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Ireland is almost, but not entirely, completely unlike Ukraine.
JOHN
there is absolutely no grounds to compare the British Empire with the newly founded Russia from 1917, just 4 years later.
Britian had been the eminent global power for 200 years by then. Controlling vast parts of the planet.
Socialist Russia was 4 years old in 1921 and almost destroyed.
After WW1 tens of thousands of right-wing mercenaries from (Western) Europe and the US landed in the North and invaded Russia with the sole objective to kill the Bolsheviks and stop their revolution. Which didn´t work out so the war expanded.
Initially Britian alone had roughly 60.000 men under arms in Russia, the USA ca. 15.000, Poles 60,000, Romanians 50.000, Japan in the East brought in 70,000, and so on.
The Russian Civil War was a war for survival. Russia had barely existed. Just after 3 years of World War against Prussia with millions of dead as Tsar Nikolai just sent in his troops.
As usual, Russia between 1914-1917 had the highest death toll in absolute numbers with over 2 mio. killed due to military action only.
So after one massacre the next one followed.
If you look at the entire Civil War from 1917 to 1923 as wikipedia shows, I am bit surprised myself, the peak numbers of troops and dead are tremendous.
It goes into the Hundreds of thousands dead along e.g. 5 mio. men under arms for the Red Army, Polish army with 1 mio. men involved.
It´s worth a check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War
This is being totally neglected in the West today. It was a major war and absolutely brutal on all sides.
(and why is everyone in the West idolizing this Romanov cleptocracy btw?)
This context changes the Ukrainian issue entirely.
So on the surface it might appear similiar but if you look into it, it really is a completely different “game”.
There is one major similarity between Ireland and Ukraine. The majority in each don’t want to be a colony of a larger empire.
Bayard,
Re: ‘The Irish were ethnically and culturally different and had a different religion and language to the English.’
For the bulk of their respective adherents, Catholicism and High Church Anglicanism aren’t really that different. Most Irish people spoke English in the early part of the 20th century – the number of monoglot Irish speakers in Ireland was estimated at under 20,000 in 1911.
Re: ‘The Irish managed to gain independence relatively peacefully, then immediately fought a bloody civil war.’
Estimated killed in Irish War of Independence: 2300.
Estimated killed in Irish Civil War: 1700.
Re: ‘Ukraine’s borders are lines on a map’
So is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Is Britain entitled to invade the latter because all of Ireland used to be part of the UK several decades ago?
AG
Re. Degas paintings
I don’t care what they’re called
Either Russian, or Ukrainian – both are mine.
The desire of Ukrainians to be an independent state is understandable, everyone wants it. But not everyone can.
What they are now? Their country is not sovereign.
The kind of nationalism that is being promoted among them looks like a teenage rebellion. “I have rights, and I want to exercise them without giving a damn about everything else.”
They need to grow up, accept and realize their roots, their whole history, take responsibility for the events, show some willingness to compromise, as is customary with adults. So far, I see they are non-negotiable. I see idealism, radicalism, self-harm, and hysteria out of control that will soon burn our whole house.
How do they intend to live side by side with Russia when the war ends?
“For the bulk of their respective adherents, Catholicism and High Church Anglicanism aren’t really that different.”
So what, they are different enough for the English to pass repressive laws against Catholics that didn’t apply to High Anglicans and they are different enough to require their own clergy and places of worship.
“Most Irish people spoke English in the early part of the 20th century – the number of monoglot Irish speakers in Ireland was estimated at under 20,000 in 1911.”
Again so what, they still have their own language, which, if you care to look, is one of the official languages of the Republic. Would you say that Germans don’t have their own language because all but a minority can speak English?
“So is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Is Britain entitled to invade the latter because all of Ireland used to be part of the UK several decades ago?”
Northern Ireland is a part of Ireland. The clue is in the name. If I had meant the Republic of Ireland, I would have written that, or “Eire”.
Thanks for your reply Bayard. Most anti-Catholic laws of any significance in Ireland had been removed by 1829 (although I accept that in the unlikely event of an Irish Catholic girl marrying the heir to the British throne, she wouldn’t have been able to become queen without first converting to Anglicanism).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws
Obviously I wouldn’t say that Germans don’t have their own language. The vast majority of Germans however speak it on a daily basis in Germany, whereas most Irish people don’t claim to be able to speak Irish, even though ever since the Republic was established it’s been taught to some degree in most Irish schools. It wasn’t an official language in the 1910’s and wasn’t spoken by the majority of people in Ireland at that time. A few people speak Cornish – does that mean that Cornwall has a right to become independent whatever Westminster says?
By the way, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, to which nearly 80% of Ukrainian Christians belong, is not the same as the Russian Orthodox Church – and Ukrainian, which is spoken by majority of people in Ukraine, is not the same language as Russian.
I’m fairly well acquainted with the geography of the British Isles, but thanks for the reminder. Can I ask if you’re going to answer the final question in my previous comment?
Lapsed Agnostic
In a religious sense, Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox are no different. Between churches, as in politics, there is a struggle for independence. If earlier the Ukrainian church was subordinate to the Moscow Patriarchate, now Poroshenko got hold of a tomos, a kind of ecclesiastical recognition of independence. From Constantinople patriarchate. So,
sanctionsanathema were lifted from some organizations. Now there are lists of churches where communion is now not recognized as real communion 🙂 Literally, they say if you do it in a wrong church, then, well I’m not religious, perhaps it is not blessed enough?Again, the questions of money gathered from believers, church property, and other earthly affairs.
Paul Greenwood: While true in the case of WW1, however, in WW2 no “Ukraine” was created by the Germans because Hitler did not want Ukraine even as a puppet state. In fact, Hitler was initially opposed even to any mentioning of the word “Ukraine” (or “Ukrainian”). This is why the 14th Waffen SS Division was initially named “Galician” and only near the end of the war the efforts of the UNA-UPA lobby succeeded in renaming it “Ukrainian”.
Thank you for your reply Tatyana. The schism between the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and the Russian Orthodox Church happened in 2018 and I’d imagine must have been largely political. Some claim that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) is still under the control of the Russian Orthodox Church, though the church denies this. Zelensky is trying to get them banned. To me, it’s all a bit Judean People’s Front / People’s Front of Judea from Monty Python’s ‘Life of Brian’ – that that film be banned in former Soviet states is, I’d imagine, something all these churches can agree on. Hope you enjoy what little’s left of the weekend your time zone.
“Thanks for your reply Bayard. Most anti-Catholic laws of any significance in Ireland had been removed by 1829”
Quite possibly, but what has that to do with why it was possible to institute them in the first place?
“The vast majority of Germans however speak it on a daily basis in Germany, whereas most Irish people don’t claim to be able to speak Irish, even though ever since the Republic was established it’s been taught to some degree in most Irish schools. It wasn’t an official language in the 1910’s and wasn’t spoken by the majority of people in Ireland at that time.”
Again true but irrelevant. You cited the number of people who spoke only Irish, not the total number who spoke it, hence my comparison with German. The point is that Ireland has a language that they speak, is peculiar to them is quite different to the language of the colonising country and is not mutually comprehensible. What proportion of the population speak it or whether it was an official language at the time of independence is neither here nor there. It exists and is a part of Irish culture.
“Can I ask if you’re going to answer the final question in my previous comment?”
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was rhetorical, but since you ask, no, of course not, what makes you think that it would be?
Is that Belgian supply to Germany actually N Sea Gas from UK ? I thought lack of storage capacity in UK meant throughout Summer N Sea gas was piped to Belgian storage facilities and bought back in winter at Spot Prices………with Germany paying over the odds to save Habeck’s skin – it would account for gas price increases in UK
Dunno but the Roughs storage was brought back into service in October and filled to Centrica’s target by November.
AFAIK, When British Gas was privatised, the new owners used the storage facility for storing gas when the spot price was low and then selling it when the spot price was high, instead of filling it during the summer and emptying during the winter. Under such repeated pressurisations and depressurisations it began to collapse and was abandoned, so we had to sell our gas cheap in the summer and buy it back more expensively in the winter.
Western journalists have no shame
“This is how NATO Media manipulates the readers:
Once legendary and famous Seymour Hersh turned into a controversial blogger working with poorly documented sources ”
https://twitter.com/runews/status/1624685521342500864
These are people that live freely in democracies, they claim, so why the heck do they write as they were state propgandists in a dictatorship?!
I really hope Hersh’s source come forward with some more info that will shut these presstitutes up for good.
“These are people that live freely in democracies, they claim, so why the heck do they write as they were state propgandists in a dictatorship?!”
I think that’s their job, now.
“It does not particularly surprise me that people do this kind of thing, nor even that they announce that they are doing them. What does impress me, however, is that other people’s reaction to such happenings is governed solely by the political fashion of the moment. Thus before the war the pinks believed any and every horror story that came out of Germany or China. Now the pinks no longer believe in German or Japanese atrocities and automatically write off all horror stories as “propaganda”. In a little while you will be jeered at if you suggest that they story of Lidice could possibly be true. And yet there the facts are, announced by the Germans themselves and recorded on gramophone discs which no doubt will still be available. Cf. the long list of atrocities from 1914 onwards [German atrocities in Belgium, Bolshevik atrocities, Turkish atrocities, British atrocities in India, American atrocities in Nicaragua, Nazi atrocities, Italian atrocities in Abyssinia and Cyrenaica, red and white atrocities in Spain, Japanese atrocities in China in every case believed in or disbelieved in according to political predilection, with utter non-interest in the facts and with complete willingness to alter one’s beliefs as soon as the political scene alters.”
Guess where this quote come from?
To Germans, Are You A Nation Of Sheep?
Scott Ritter tells Germans they are a nation of sheep if the US can blow up their pipeline, forcing them to buy expensive gas from the US and Norway, while they say nothing.
https://twitter.com/ivan_8848/status/1624727227089707010?s=20&t=Q2ApPqMYMuQ8U1sF6qnSAw
Scott Ritter expects what ?
Bundestag is largest legislature on earth – it has expanded because of Germany’s weird electoral system – it now has 736 MdB when it is supposed to have 598
The Bundeskanzlerbunker is 5 times the size of the White House
Germany has an out of control political class which controls all Media, Churches, Agencies, Judiciary – the whole system is party political – judges are chosen by party – politicians can interfere in prosecutions –
The only way Germany can be changed is by overthrowing the system imposed in 1949 and that might happen as the GDR is very different culturally from the Western Zones even in 2023………..65% public polled think the system is defunct
Interesting, although I doubt that information would alter his (or anybody else’s) opinion of how Germans have responded.
The gas would be the same price wherever they bought it from and the wholesale price has fallen to below what it was before the war began and that’s without taking inflation into account.
Ritter has been shilling for Russia ever since the war began but has acquired a record of being consistently wrong. According to him shortage of gas over the winter was going to cause the German economy to collapse with cold starving people coming out onto the streets in violent protest. Ignore him.
Sure, “same price” when it’s being imported from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. And if Ritter’s obviously “shilling for Russia” then how much more obvious is it that you’re shilling for the entity who blew it up. In any event his main point is the silent cowardice of the Germans. A response you doubtless approve of.
Craig’s chart shows that Norway is supplying the most gas to Germany and the rest of Europe.
I don’t know how I could be ‘shilling for the entity who blew it up’ when I don’t know who that was and neither, if truth be told, does anybody else.
“I don’t know how I could be ‘shilling for the entity who blew it up’ when I don’t know who that was and neither, if truth be told, does anybody else.”
Even for you, that’s pretty dense. Of course someone knows who blew the pipelines up, from the divers who planted the charges right the way up the chain of command to the politicians who OK’d the operation. Just because everyone’s looking in the kitchen because they don’t like what they found in the cupboard in the bedroom doesn’t mean to say they don’t know who’s responsible.
Craig’s chart shows the data for Germany only, not “the rest of Europe”. And, to quote from Reuters, “U.S. LNG exporters boosted shipments to Europe by more than 137% in the first 11 months of 2022 from the same period in 2021, according to data from Kpler, supplying more than half of Europe’s imported LNG and helping the region weather a more than 54% plunge in piped shipments from Russia.”
OK, ‘nobody outside of the perpetrators knows who blew it up’. That better?
Gas coming through Nordstream would be subject to charges for using the pipeline and transit charges payable where the pipeline passed through another country’s jurisdiction.
This won’t make LNG option less expensive. Germany lacked LNG terminals, this is why there is no US or Arab LNG on Craig’s plot. However, Germany completed the construction of their 1st LNG terminal in November of 2022, and they got their 1st LNG this January. Thus, they are switching to LNG which is more expensive than the pipeline gas, no matter how many countries it passes through. The LNG tankers use diesel which is ridiculously expensive now; in US, a gallon of diesel these days id about $1.10 more expensive than regular gasoline. Which, BTW, is another side effect of the refusal to buy the “heavy” Russian oil. So, Germany lost 2 profitable things. One, they won’t be able to use cheap Russian gas, and two, they won’t be able to resell it to other countries. I believe this would be a major blow to Germany and EU; the next blow will come with sanctions against China.
DOM
Germans are not that exceptionally stupid rather exceptionally rich still, which makes it easy to ignore this war. In absolute numbers at least.
If absolute poverty level is at 20% but the upper income classes concern 30% of 80 mio. that is still quite a lot of people.
And those are very well represented by the Green Party and the Liberals in the government.
Unsurprisingly surveys show a direct correlation between pro-war/pro escalation attitude and higher income/higher academic status.
Now: why. is. that. ???
And then you have intimidation as well as sedation via law enforcement and media. So the crisis has to grow still for a riot to rise or some serious form of political resistance to materialize.
And as to this war: Where in God´s name should people find information that would incite them question the dominating view?
TV won´t show them.
The major newspapers won´t write it.
Radio won´t tell them.
And neither will the leading social media.
Think email news ticker – everyone has an email account. Thus everyone will see the news when logging in. Those news are state government news. So that´s the one piece of news that even the least political person will take notice of.
The disintegration of NGOs and charity organisations and labour unions is in part due to 20 years of social atomisation through social media and well before that the slow implosion of labour unions.
Add to that the lack of faith and loss of hope. People fighting to survive on the labour market have no time to think about revolution or whether Zelensky should ask for tanks or guns.
In fact: Who IS Zelensky? A new pain killer on the market?
And after all that THE LEFT PARTY is doing a terrific job in making itself entirely dispensable.
we will see…
The Green Party in Germany is pretty much a spin-off of the Democratic Party in the USA, but they are even more incompetent. They were not able to take a sheet of paper and a pencil, and using their iPhone calculators estimate, how much energy they can get from wind and sun in proper time. Their decision to quickly phase out nuclear energy rivals in its stupidity the mass killing of sparrows by the Chinese radicalized youth during Cultural Revolution.
So Hitler got it right in his last days: The Germans are not a heroic nation and deserve to perish! 🙂
We can’t even obtain freedom of assembly.
Two established left wing venues have cancelled the No 2 Nato meeting
Most of those rights to “freedom of assembly” were hard-won by early trades unions
It is only a very easily manipulated public that allowed itself to be turned into captives of authority since 1970s – that is to blame. To silence Ken Livingstone Thatcher abolished GLC because she could not legally overturn the election result……….police were instrumentalist against Miners’ Strike which is why South Yorks Police was “protected” over Hillsborough ………….
The Voters went along with every restriction and limitation until they found themselves locked in their own homes…………just like 18th Century with Sedition and Combination Acts
As I’m sure you know Paul, Thatcher professed not to believe in society, ” there is no such thing as society…” being her big idea about running a society. She was a”wrong un”of the highest order, Spending the xmas and new year holiday period with active child rapist Sir James Saville at Chequers (British prime minister’s palatial, gratis holiday home) EVERY year of her premiership. I take it that your not a fan. Good for you for seeing thru the propaganda.
Dear mr Jack,
I hope this catches your eye as it appears a bit further down.
First, you ask what do I hope to achieve by all my comments. Ahem, they are rather fewer than yours. What I am trying to achieve is a reasoned discussion of the item in question. Many of the other commentators seem to have soared off into their own spheres of alternative realities, little to do with the veracity or not of mr Hersh’s article. As for Scandinavian countries, as you put it not being innocent, by implication, being as dirty as others. Well actually, I think we have rather cleaner hands than many other countries , so there. Also, It is no secret we have more fear than love for the Russian state as a neighbour. As the stock market guide says, “past performance is no guide to the future” but all the same I think most people would disagree when it comes to nations. Something you seem deliberately to avoid, indeed to misunderstand, is that being pally with the USA does not mean that we do their dirty work at every bidding. You simply refuse to understand, these societies are open and leaky. Also, you have not commented upon the fact that the anti NATO factions would have a field day were the story to be true. As Sweden is scrabbling to join NATO the last thing the Swedish government or the Norwegian government would want is for some idiotic caper to blow up and stop that process. There is however another government who would like to stop that process. Means, mode, motive. Q.e.d.
Coming back to the article, as we say here, “med en liten skje”, the part of the article relating to Scandinavian support is such codswallop that inevitably it causes big question marks about the rest of the article. Again I beg to refer to that august authority lord Dacre.
Above is fact based on my knowledge of life up here.
Here is speculation. That pipeline was a white elephant. The future reduced gas supplies can be accommodated through the other pipelines. Germany, will Never buy so much gas that NS is necessary. So to blow it up and use it to , please excuse my pun, to muddy the waters, it is obvious to me that Russia has something to gain. Yup, Norway, did. alright out of increased gas prices for few months, but they have slumped again. And as stated were the USA to have done it there is always a very small possibility that they would be caught redhanded, not worth it. And as you pointed out (thank you) the Russians / Soviets are not above murder in the Baltic.
“The future reduced gas supplies can be accommodated through the other pipelines.”
What other pipelines, the ones through Ukraine? Those, if any are the redundant ones.
Germany might not have bought so much gas FOR ITSELF, but actually this country was supposed to become a GAS HUB for Europe.
In this case, pipelines running through Poland and Ukraine would no longer be the only way of delivery. And Poland and Ukraine are accustomed to making money on transit and using transit to blackmail Russia.
During the construction of the Nord Stream, Angela Merkel was literally forced to promise to keep Ukrainian transit. So the explosion of the NS guarantees the preservation of Ukrainian and Polish transits. Figure out for yourself who benefits from it.
C Paus
Ok you are naive and do not think scandinavians are as dirty as americans. Suspicious to show up here and protect both the US and Norway…
Ok you think that US is a benevolent force and have no interests or capabilities to bomb a russian pipeline
Ok you blame Russia for the bombing their own pipeline, was it the US that attacked the…US on 911 too perhaps?
Ok you do not think Norway is gaining money or influence with their energy supplies to the EU thus excluding the very picture Craig attached to this blogpost.
I think we are done.
“Well actually, I think we have rather cleaner hands than many other countries , so there.”
I was calling that “Danish exceptionalism” but from now on is Scandinavian exceptionalism!
Around 2012 Denmark was assisting NSA(USA) to spy on the “friends”
“You simply refuse to understand, these societies are open and leaky.”
What are the leaks from NS2 investigation or what are the details about this
investigation.
“Sweden has rejected plans to set up a formal joint investigation team with Denmark and Germany to look into the recent ruptures(lol) of the NS2….. ”
What are the leaks from NS2 investigation ?
What are the details about this investigation?
I am sure that you in Sweden have more information than us in the Nato countries.
Sweden is honest, transparent, open and “neutral” country with nothing to hide.
BTW Is Poo-tin threatening Sweden if Sweden discloses evidence against Russia?