Well, 24 hours later I feel no closer to understanding what just happened.
I do not buy the idea it was all a clever charade designed by Putin. The damage it has caused to his image of great strength, and to the notion of the state monopoly of violence within Russia, is greater damage than can be counterbalanced by any alleged tactical change inside Ukraine.
I don’t see that change anyway, and frankly Russia did not need any such drama. Ukraine’s much trumpeted counter-offensive appears a damp squib.
If looking for something below the surface, the idea that Prigozhin had been turned by some kind of offer from the West seems more probable, but is hard to square with his sudden capitulation.
However the surface story of what just happened is equally implausible.
Wagner seem to have suffered no major reverse and encountered no serious military opposition before they turned round and gave back all they have taken. For which Prigozhin has on the face of it received nothing in turn but a rather fragile life as a guest of Lukashenko.
While Putin appears to have allowed an actual military revolt that killed at least a few Russian soldiers and airmen to take place, with no punishment. That seems to me very contrary to Putin’s nature.
These are my thoughts. But I am struggling enormously to understand this. As are the ordinary Russian public, for whom the whole incident has been surreal.
Moon of Alabama comments… “As far as is known none of Wagner’s military commanders and only a few thousand of its 25,000 troops had joined Prigozhin in his lunatic run”
Can this be verified. It does seem odd that an organisation, with a military command structure, could be so easily led off on such a ‘spur of the moment’ mission.
The logistics alone could not have gone unnoticed by existing Wagner command or anybody from the SMO command…_
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/06/on-prigozhins-insurrection-farce.html
25 000 man you would need more than 1000 trucks!
I don’t believe that happened. I don’t know from where I have 5000 man in my head.
Pigeon,
Most arguments for 5000 have been calculated by counting the trucks in the convoy x by capacity. Some punts are as low as 1500. Long and short… not a lot of the Wagneristas went on a jolly jaunt to Rostov.
Apart from the opportunity for the Wagneristas to join up with the regular Russian army, they have also been allowed safe passage to Belarus. How many are already in Belarus is unknown for now.
If the number of Wagneristas in Belarus + Russian forces already there, together with those on the border with northern Ukraine/Russia could be verified, then it is plausible that a new army as big, possibly larger, than the Ukrainian ‘Spring Army’ could be brought in to play in northern Ukraine. A whole new front.
If Belarus then decides to support a request from Luhansk and Donetsk to support their right to self determination by throwing its forces in the melée, what does Zelensky then do, he’s got all his eggs in the south and no second army.
Misinformation, disinformation and the fog of war means that maskirovka is probably getting a sugar rush and a half. So, what is the bluff here, where’s the threat, is there a threat?
One thing is for sure, a ceasefire followed by negotiations would make me feel a lot happier…_
Digger
Not that long ago according to “millitary summary” 2 brigades were moved (redeployed) from North Ukraine to the South. Everything is possible in this crazy war.
Some of them may have been the new Kamaz driverless trucks, I remind you that at the behest of Vladimir Vladimirovich, Russia will build the techno-economy of the future. (You can see my comment below.)
Regardless of the trucks, the one-in-many Chance is with Russia again. Look how it turned out.
The website of the Executive Committee of the Commonwealth of Independent States informs us:
https://cis.minsk.by/news/25630
“On June 22, 2023, the inter–ministerial consultations of the CIS member states on international information security (IIB) were held in Moscow under the chairmanship of the Russian side.
…
The emphasis is on strengthening cooperation on specialized UN platforms – in the Open–ended Working Group on Security in the Field of ICT Use 2021-2025, the Special Committee for the Elaboration of a Universal Convention on Countering the Use of ICT for Criminal Purposes, as well as in the International Telecommunication Union and the Universal Postal Union. The issues of internationalization of Internet network management were discussed.”
~
Interesting. Exactly what on the official level is certainly interpreted as “the use of ICT for criminal purposes”, and very loud and big, happened two days later.
Chance one-in-many, I told you. 🙂
Putin said something important
https://ria.ru/20230627/vagner-1880724094.html
Wagner were sponsored by state, he says figures, around 86 milliards (or, should I use billions?) roubles for May2022-May2023. Also, Prigozhin earned nearly as much money by supplying food for army.
Putin says about Ukrainian losses, military vehicles and the like.
—
If you don’t get good translation by evening, I’ll return to make one. It’s not a poke into Andrew’s backside, just very bad internet connection in my workshop and some work I have to have finished and shipped today.
Tatyana, your link doesn’t work. It’s also not clear what you are saying.
You should know by now that you are suspected of possibly being a Russian troll. I keep an open mind, but you don’t do yourselves any favours by badly worded posts.
I do accept that my language is not your first language…_
🙂 sorry, DiggerUK, was in a hurry. I’ll get to translation now.
by the way, if you could describe what is Russian troll in your opinion, perhaps I am one.
sorry again, on the money, I found RT’s translation:
The Wagner Group was fully dependent on state support, Russian President Vladimir Putin said at a meeting with the country’s military in the Kremlin on Tuesday. The private military company’s fighters were supplied and paid by the Defense Ministry and the state budget, he added.
Between May 2022 and May 2023, the Russian authorities allocated 86.26 billion rubles ($1.04 billion) for wages and incentive payments for the Wagner fighters, the president revealed.
Meanwhile, Wagner founder Evgeny Prigozhin, who also owns the Concord catering company, earned billions of rubles on state contracts, Putin added.
“When the upkeep of the Wagner Group rested on the shoulders of the state, the Concord owner received… 80 billion rubles ($960 million) from the state in a year by supplying food products to the army,” the president said.
“I hope that no one stole anything while fulfilling these [contracts],” he continued, adding that the authorities would “certainly dig into it.”
on losses I’ve translated from his speech linked above (article on RIA.Novosti)
starts at 6:20
“When I talked about combat work, I wanted to say the following: *while talking Putin is flipping through the papers in search of the right one* here are sitting combat pilots, who have done a lot to ensure that this combat work is going on at the proper level *Putin found it*
Just now they gave me updated information: from June 04, that is, from the beginning of the so-called counteroffensive, the enemy lost 259 tanks, 780 armored vehicles, but only in the Orekhovskoye direction, which the enemy considers the main direction of attack, and only in the last 7 days the enemy lost 280 pieces of equipment, of which 41 tanks and 102 armored vehicles. This is largely the result of your work and the work of your comrades. And for that, of course, special thanks to you.”
Anyone who has been on this site with a clear mind and heart will know that Tatayana is no Russian troll. You on the other hand are a womble. Myopically centred intelligence clown x
Alastair,
I shall not be commenting on your post…_
Alastair, If somebody suspects Tatyana of being a Russian troll, given that, based on objectively verifiable empirical evidence (ie her posts on this site) she appears to be just your average Russian housewife with the rather unusual hobby of posting unwaveringly supportive comments praising her country’s president, you cannot judge the truth or falsehood of such a comment (ie her being a troll or not). So please stick to using reasoned arguments, and not personal insults.
For the record, we have offline verification that Tatyana is exactly who she says she is, lives where she claims and has a genuine online business. Her motives are not a valid topic for speculation or debate.
It’s time for a reminder of blog etiquette from the moderation rules for commenters:
“Fair Play
Play the ball, not the man. Address arguments, not people. Do not impugn the motives of others, including me. No taunting.”
In particular, unfounded allegations that an opponent is a troll or shill are not welcome here:
“Will EVERYBODY please tackle the arguments commenters make, and not refer to their motives for making them – which you cannot know – or that people are paid, or their personality traits, or somebody else. What interests me is the arguments people put. I think most of the imputations made on all sides are probably inaccurate, but even if they were accurate they are irrelevant. A man or woman may be a one-eyed former contract killer with a cocaine habit in the pay of the state of Israel, but may still make an argument that is absolutely correct. Please address the argument, not the person. Posts which fail to do this will be deleted when seen.”
Kindly leave the detection of suspicious activity to the mods.
Comments related to blog moderation should be posted in the Blog Support forum. Thank you.
Whoa! Thank you very much, dear moderation team.
Just yesterday, for the sake of a joke, I was going to change my avatar to a blue Twitter verification checkmark, and at the same time change my nickname to “100% not a Russian troll, Tatyana, she / her, Krasnodar, Russia” 🙂
(Not a bad idea, huh? I’m not sure if the “Name” text field’s capacity and valid characters check will allow it though. Still excited about it.)
if letters only, then maybe
‘Tatyana, the Russian troll complaints absolute champion, of’?
I suspect that this would not be far from reality 🙂
“Tatyana, your link doesn’t work.”
As far as I know, RIA Novosti is among the websites that do not work for enemy countries, but I guess it can be unblocked for selected users who have proven their loyalty to the homeland. So, if in the future you want to use the quality information of this time-proven media, well consider whether you are a friend or an enemy of V. V.
It’s your choice…
Tatyana, I have a question for you if you don’t mind. What are the criteria you use when believing statements made by your government/your country’s media while dismissing as lies those made by so-called Western countries?
That is, at first you say nasty things about me, not embarrassed by my presence here, and then, as if nothing had happened, you try to start a casual conversation with me?
I must come across as a very patient person, so inoffensive that you can skip an apology?
Do not be deceived by my patience, Neil; it’s just that English is not my native language and while I’m doing the translation, I have time to cool down a bit and remember about manners 🙂
Tatyana, if I have accused you of being a Russian troll (I haven’t), I apologise. I was really responding to Alastair’s comment accusing another user of being “a womble … a myopically centred intelligence clown”. I hope you will join me in condemning such personal abuse, and also hope that you will find time to answer my question, if you are able.
Neil, if you’re still interested.
I gave myself time to get back to normal 🙂 Because to be honest, these accusations of being a Russian Troll annoy me quite a lot. I will be sincere – I experienced evil joy about the fact that I was supported, and the attacker received a slap in the face. So, your call to “condemn personal attacks” squeezed quite an evil “Mua-ha-ha-ha” out of me, and, not even once!
Well, today I can already say: Alastair, thank you for your support, and you are completely right, and that interlocutor was wrong, but they apologized and the conflict is over, and personal attacks are certainly not good.
As for your claim, Neil, that I write pro-Putin comments, your question was why am I doing this. Well, partly because Putin’s attackers are using ridiculous arguments, and I’m pointing that out. Putin’s decisions are sometimes criticized, and I point out that they were taken for the good of the Russians. Sometimes this is a stream of hatred under the sign “I hate Putin”, which covers up hatred for the Russian people, and everything Russian in general. Of course, this causes an emotional reaction in me, because I am Russian and I feel attacked.
Though, this is my standard behavior in commenting whether they are discussing Putin or something else.
Another reason is – I have a vivid imagination. Sometimes I imagine that this site is monitored by all sorts of spies, propagandists and other paid employees from those organizations that Aunt May created to defend you from Russian propaganda. Mr. Murray lists some of them in footnotes under each article.
So, I imagine that this whole army of warriors is scouring the Internet, looking for a troll, so that the battle can be included in their report and sent to the accounting department in order to get paid.
This fantasy is coloring my everyday life. Besides to counterarguing ridiculous or hateful comments, I also have fun.
I imagine that maybe even a special agent was assigned to confront me personally, or even two, or maybe a whole platoon! And maybe even they are promised double the standard payment rate! I can add grandiosity to myself in my own fantasies, can’t I? It doesn’t seem to be banned yet.
Imagine your question gave me the idea that some of the Western politicians are biting their elbows with envy, eager to find out why Putin has so much support. And in fact, the questions “why do you support Putin” is an attempt to find out this Most Secret Secret from a naive housewife 🙂
Or, imagine that the mod’s message about verification could cause the Accounting Department of some Counter-Russian-Propaganda-Platoon to review paid checks and de-bonuse some brave troll hunters. Because what I have absolutely no doubt about, is that the brave troll hunters take credit for non-existent victories.
In general, I’m waiting for the moment when the arguments against everything Russian cease to be outbursts of emotions, or absurd, politicized, ideological, patronizing or simply lies.
Tatyana :
Not sure if you noticed, but you did get a couple of replies on this here
The dispute isn’t with Russians per se: it’s with Putin supporters, specifically those who won’t condemn his murderous military invasion of Ukrainian territory. Who cares whether his cheerleaders are Russian, Crimean, Lithuanian, Mexican or Martian? The only thing it affects is the language used to insult them.
Putin’s act of international aggression has already caused tens of thousands of violent deaths of Russian citizens. Because of him, Russia is diplomatically isolated, its citizens penned in by travel restrictions and trade embargos. Putin is not your friend. He’s a vicious, imperialist neo-Soviet megalomaniac. He’s morphed into an evil Bond villain (like that Robert Carlyle character from The World Is Not Enough). The delusional sycophants who support him deserve every word of condemnation coming their way, at least until they see sense and eject him.
I would skewer my Putin doll* with yet another hatpin, but I don’t think it can take any more. (There is space at the back where the legs meet the body, but that’s reserved for a hot poker.)
* I couldn’t find an actual Putin doll, so I just got one of Dobby from Hogwarts and scrawled “V. V. Putin” on its forehead with a Sharpie. Much the same. Except this one now looks like a porcupine.
glenn_nl
thanks for getting my attention. I saw your and Clark’s answer, and thanks for the support. I’m so excited about this whole situation that I’m afraid the moderators are already thinking of polite methods to stop the fountain of my eloquence 🙂
I am very sorry that this happened to you, and I am angry because of the situation with your Russian friend.
The following is probably the answer for you, and Dawg too. I think that I have strong enough nerves, and perhaps another “Anonymous Haters” will spend their fuse on me, and this may save someone more sensitive.
For you Dawg: if you shoot someone, you will not win, you will only kill. Pouring hatred on someone will not convince them, but only suppress them. Keeping people silent and not resisting makes you not a winner, but an oppressor. If you want to win, then fight, don’t intimidate.
> “if you shoot someone, you will not win, you will only kill”
Write exactly that on a postcard and send it to Vlad the Invader, at the Kremlin (or whichever of his mega-mansions he’s hiding in). After all, he’s the one who’s giving the orders for his army to shoot people.
Underline the bit about not winning; I think Putin needs to think about that a bit more. Also, if you include your name and address you might find out how he deals with his critics.
> “Keeping people silent and not resisting makes you not a winner, but an oppressor.”
You’re quite right: any Russians who don’t want more of their own citizens to get killed should go out in the streets with banners demanding the withdrawal of all Russian troops from Ukraine (which still includes the Donbass region), so that more of them survive. (The intimidating response from the Росгвардия would surely test the strength of anybody’s nerves.)
Dawg: “… at the Kremlin (or whichever of his mega-mansions he’s hiding in).”
I don’t think Putin is actually ‘hiding’ anywhere. On the contrary – our state propaganda is making much of the fact that he’s appearing in lots of places!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66065551
Don’t let that glaring contradiction make your narrative pause for a moment.
Of course it’s not a good idea to publicly criticise Putin if you’re a Russian – you don’t have to labour the point quite so tediously. Then again, you can see with Assange what happens if you dare to publish the truth.
About Russia not winning… have you considered that the propaganda we’ve been served on a daily basis for two years might not be quite on the mark either? Ukraine was and is winning! The Russians losing so hard… this has been the daily story here, along with how Nazis are sometimes just nice chaps, Ukraine isn’t corrupt or authoritarian at all, our media is totally unbiased and Ukraine has always been such a great friend and pal, we’d never even thought about it before.
It seems Putin ventured out when he knew Prigozhin and his well-armed band of mutinous misfits had cleared off the scene. (At least he’s no longer way down the far end of a humungous table.) We know that, because it says so on a BBC News page, which means it’s … state propaganda, except it’s when {certain unspecified} conditions apply. I wonder if there’s a little contradiction wriggling around in that narrative soup.
Thankfully, as long as our Russian friends stick to their great leader’s position, they should be just fine. If they can offer some insight into the war and its rationale that hasn’t just been gleaned from their own state-controlled media or Soviet-era history books, that would certainly be of interest. (And Prigs will fly.)
It’s fascinating to find out the kind of reassuring stories the Russian brand of warmongering psychopaths use to justify all the killing and maiming that they decided to inflict on a neighbouring country. Maybe our own warmongers-in-chief might learn a thing or two. There are indeed Nazis in Russia, not to mention an ex-KGB officer who’s manipulated the law so he can be leader-for-life (as all self-regarding dictators do). What happens if Uncle Sam thinks to himself, “It sure sounds like those good neighbourly peace-loving Russians need a bit of liberatin'”. Yes, we’ve learned time and again that externally imposed regime change tends to stoke a greater conflict in the future . . . not that it factored into Putin’s plans last year.
Incidentally, I didn’t declare who was winning. The quote was: “if you shoot someone, you will not win, you will only kill”. If that conditional has any actual meaning, then it would also apply to Putin. What’s sauce for the propa ganda is sauce for the propa goose. There’s another trite saying that if you shoot one enemy, two will take his place. That’s the paradox of military aggression. Perhaps the military aggressor in this particular invasion should finally pay it some heed.
Dawg, we discussed my attitude to the war. You forgot? Or today someone else writes with this nickname?
But it doesn’t matter. I see your credo is “just kill the right people and you win”, and mine is “find how to win without killing”.
It’s a pity that Kiev didn’t share my philosophy starting their war on Donbass, or, when there was a chance with the Minsk agreements. So now my cute postcard would inevitably get lost in the mountain of postcards from the Donbass, with completely opposite words written there.
Tatyana, my earlier comments were directed at people who support Putin, not to you … unless of course you support Putin (in which case, the relevant criticisms apply).
> ” I see your credo is “just kill the right people and you win”, and mine is “find how to win without killing”.
You have a fanciful imagination, Tatyana.
We discussed my attitude to the war? You forgot? When I was previously falsely accused of warmongering, I pointed out that I had argued “the Russians should cease the military assault, stop the destruction, and withdraw to internationally agreed borders”. In fact, not sending 100,000 red army soldiers into another country’s territory would have been my top recommendation in the first place. Putin decided to do it anyway, in defiance of the predictions of almost all observers (except the US government) who assumed he would be thinking rationally. The invasion was Putin’s choice. After it started, I recommended withdrawal of the Russian army as a first step. I think my way would have resulted in fewer casualties. ¿Comprende?
> It’s a pity that Kiev didn’t share my philosophy starting their war on Donbass
Now you’re augmenting your false accusation with more Kremlin-inspired fiction. Would this war that Kiev allegedly started in Donbass have anything to do with the uprising of Russian-backed separatists who seized government buildings immediately following Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea? Was the Ukraine government not expected to take action against such illegal actions on its own territory? Suppose something equivalent happened in Russia – would Putin not intervene by force? (Try it and see.)
Incidentally, the total number of civilian casualties in Donbass in 2021 was 44. Then Mr Putin got involved. Now, how many casualties do you think there have been in the past year or so?
You can trot out platitudes about peace all you like, but if you’re not also prepared to condemn Putin’s brutal invasion, they ring pretty hollow.
One thing is for sure – Putin now knows who his friends are. As Craig rightly said – the Wagner mercenaries will live up their mercenary reputation and take the higher offer and a guaranteed freedom from their sentences.
Prizoghen has taken gardening leave and the mercenaries are now under the jurisdiction of the Russian Military a few days earlier than planned. Who knows he might front up Have I Got News For You as the BBC will have anyone chairing that programme.
Notably I keep hearing AUKUS accents from the News rooms and presenters these days at the BBC.
It’s not exactly all over but was nearly all over very quickly much to the chagrin of The Western pliticians and commentators.
In my view Putin has a choice now:
Up the military ante in Kiev or Lviv (namely the political centres where the politicains and the well off and rich live). Not the suburbs where the poor who serve the rich live.
Secondly, surprise surprise, Belarus is right next door to Poland who have apparently been flagging up the idea of doing ex-officio NATO activities in Ukraine. If true – I’m reasonably sure that this idea has not gone unnoticed in The Kremlin and the nukes get closer to Poland and not the other way round via Belarus.
An interesting thing for myself is that Uraine has not attacked cities in Russia in the war. The only reason why that has not happened. Maybe it’s not happened as they don’t have any spare missiles – possibly?
Put more starkly everyone is fixated with ‘Regime Change’ in Russia yet there may be a Regime Change in Kiev depending on how the Russians play it from here. Holding on to what they have and putting the Ukranian government under severe pressure where it really matters in the real centres of power the two big cities.
Only opinion though, as unlike our sage like analysts in the West and on the comments boards I have no idea of the numbers of deaths on either side and certailnly no idea as to whether Putin is mad or clever?
All I think I know is that this war could continue for ages and get us all closer to nuclear war the longer it goes on. Who will fire the first nuke is up for grabs but the US has used two so far and the nuke mad Russians have not fired one yet.
By the way I could see Putin’s madness up close if we were allowed to watch RT. But our politicans know best even though they have done something that they accuse Putin of: Banning free speech and access to information. Absolute irony, American style.
“By the way I could see Putin’s madness up close if we were allowed to watch RT.
mark, try here for RT.
https://rumble.com/c/RTNews
rumble is blocked for me. It’s not a way round.
This works – https://swentr.site/
Better, instead of Putin’s madness, which is Western slanderous disinformation, of course, see the people’s joy at Putin after the mutiny attempt.
Vladimir Vladimirovich gone to the people for the first time since the beginning of the pandemic
https://www.mk.ru/politics/2023/06/28/vladimir-putin-vpervye-s-nachala-pandemii-vyshel-v-narod.html
June 28, 2023
Vladimir Putin, who arrived at the opening of the light and music fountain in Derbent, suddenly went to the residents. He walked into the crowd and began to shake the outstretched hands. “And me too and me too!” people shouted from different sides. Putin kissed the girl standing next to him and took a picture with her for a selfie. Other residents also “begged” for a selfie with the president. Putin stayed in the crowd for several minutes.
https://youtu.be/rqdNsm0zlrI
Earlier, the head of state often practiced such communication with Russians. However, the last time this happened was in March 2020 in Ivanovo. Since the beginning of the pandemic, the president has not “gone to the people”, and the participants of the events had to either observe quarantine, or were located at a considerable distance from Putin. The last meeting with the security forces in the Kremlin was also held with respect for social distance.
However, after the mutiny, it was obviously important for the president to demonstrate unity with the common people.”
‘An interesting thing for myself is that Uraine has not attacked cities in Russia in the war.’
perhaps your media didn’t tell you, actually they do.
Brussels was oh so much worried to know why they use NATO weapons in these attacks
https://www.lesoir.be/517390/article/2023-06-04/guerre-en-ukraine-la-belgique-demande-des-clarifications-quant-lutilisation
Actually Tatyana, our media did tell us. It just gets buried under the mountains of reports, including first hand accounts, photos, videos, satellite images, etc of Russian attacks on Ukraine cities and civilian infrastructure, theatres, hospitals, pregnant mothers, etc.
If only they’d been able to be so focussed on reporting such things so well in all the wars we’ve created across the globe in the last few years. Just think how many lives could have been saved and prosperous countries allowed to live in peace within their own borders. We could maybe make a late start with Scotland and its territorial integrity.
And if only Putin’s supporters would realise that saying “what about Iraq/Afghanistan/etc” is not a defence of the atrocities being committed against Ukraine.
Neil
What particular atrocities? The Ukies have a habit of placing military targets in the middle of civilian centres, e.g. the hotel/restaurant that has just been bombed.
Neil – Who’s defending atrocities, other than you giving the usual free pass to the ones that suit you? No wonder Putin is doing so well under your failed ‘us and them’ colonialist saviour narratives.
Are you a Christian, Neil?
Even if you are not, perhaps you can remember someone once saying, “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye”.
” first hand accounts, photos, videos, satellite images, etc of Russian attacks on Ukraine cities and civilian infrastructure, theatres, hospitals, pregnant mothers, etc. ”
And now pizza restaurants. Perhaps they thought Prince Andrew was inside or that ‘Ukronazis’ were abusing children in the basement.
PM
Resto part of a hotel housing Western (American) mercenaries. Did your reading fail to mention that delicate point?
I think you meant civilian infrastructure used for military purposes or military placed next to civilian infrastructure , that’s not saying Russia are perfect … the war started 2014 .. been watching some Serbian sniper interviews , he’s been in donbass since 2014 on the donbass side ..
RT is allowed through different mirrored links –
https://swentr.site/
I think he’s more likely to understudy Jonathan Banks or play Count Orlok in a remake of Nosferatu.
So elements of Wagner shot down twelve (yes 12!) Russian helicopters and killed twenty Russian troops in their little attempt to spark a civil war.
They were clearly trying very hard to provoke a wider conflict which was resisted.
The ones responsible for that are going to be looking over their shoulders for the rest of the days.
It wasn’t 12 aircraft, it was 12 people dead.
My theory is Prigozhin and his boys sobered up.
You might not be missing the mark by much here if your statement is not taken literally, and if the accounts of Lukashenko’s, Yevkurov (Russian Minister of Defence) and others’ initial discussion with Prighozhin are accurate and true. (As shown on Telegram channels such as of Mark Sleboda and Donbass Devushka t.me/DDGeopolitics(https://t.me/DDGeopolitics) t.me/TheRealPolitick (https://t.me/TheRealPolitick).
The flavour of the conversation was of a gradual bringing down of Prighozhin’s drunken bonapartist mental state to a more sober one where he began to recognise the enormity of his conduct and was able to take a more rational approach.
There does n’t seem to me to be much evidence of foreign interference in all this as has been suggested (that USA intelligence say they knew of the plans is neither here nor there), and if there was, there needs to be some explanation of how they could have been involved in some sort of catalytic way.
I totally understand how Prighozhin and his merry men were able to take a heavily armed convoy, occupy 2 major cities and get within a few hundred km’s of Moscow.
However, I am at a loss to explain how after retreating to occupied Ukraine he has simply being allowed to leave, reenter Russia and fly to Belarus – presumably with the blessing of the Russian authorities, just 3 days later. At the same time the Russian president explains that he is a traitor that must be brought to justice who has not been forgiven and criminal charges are still pending. What kind of nonsense is that? Can someone explain how a wanted terrorist/traitor can just waltz through Russia and get on a plane without questions being asked?
Perhaps the truth is a little different to how you would like it to be, such as this whole affair was orchestrated by Putin. Sure it might not have gone exactly as planned, but when do these sort of things ever do that? Alternatively it could have been orchestrated by the West’s secret services with Prigozhin as a dupe or an asset, but the Russians were on to it and used it to flush out some fifth columnists. Perhaps the FSB struck a deal with Prigozhin, you carry on as if we didn’t know and we will make sure you don’t end up dead and you can keep all the money you’ve been paid by the West. Who knows? It’s a mystery, but such things always are when the truth is impossible to tell. It’s only inexplicable, though, if you try to fit everything to a pre-determined theory and then try and explain why some aspects don’t make sense.
None of these alternatives are grounded.
“None of these alternatives are grounded”,
I suppose that translates as “I don’t want to believe any of those alternatives, so I will dismiss them.”
Your (and Craig’s) puzzlement arises from what Conan Doyle called the “cardinal error” of trying to twist facts to fit the theory and not the other way around. You start with what you want to be true, that this was a genuine rebellion, and are then mystified by facts that you know to be true, like Prigozhin still being alive. You then have to try and explain those facts by decreasingly likely theories, such as Putin has let Prigozhin walk free because he is mad/stupid/weak/not in control, because those, too, are things that you want to be true.
If you start with what you know to be true, i.e. Prigozhin still being alive and free, the most likely explanation for that is that it was a phoney coup and Putin was in on the act. Then all the mysteries fall away.
Prigozhin is alive… for the time being… but that might simply be because Putin thinks he still needs the Wagner group. Topping a popular leader wouldn’t be a sound move. No need for fanciful, unsubstantiated theories involving western intelligence agencies.
That’s your theory and one that you like the look of. That doesn’t mean it is true, though.
“Topping a popular leader wouldn’t be a sound move.”
Maybe, but is Prigozhin a “popular leader”? Is this a case of “it was on the internet and it supports my theory, so it must be true?
wait, Bayard, Lukashenko gives big interview, explains in detail what happened. One piece out of it:
“I instructed my media and the press secretary, in no case to make a hero out of me, out of Putin, or Prigozhin. Because we neglected this situation. We blundered it away. And then, when it began to develop, we watched and thought that it would resolve itself – both I and Putin (I, to a lesser extent, to be honest, but nonetheless). And it didn’t dissolve. Two people who fought at the front collided.
…
Evgeny Prigozhin… in this regard, he can be understood. And if we add that he is a person like Shoigu (they have the same characters), very impulsive, that’s where it started.”
I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t trust Lukashenko to give me the time of day.
Does that matter? I wouldn’t trust any western government to give me the time of day. We’ve just had one PM sacked for lying.
Bayard – Why ?
He’s a politician. He didn’t get where he is today by always telling the truth.
Andrew H
Perhaps Wagner have such a big influence this was a compromise for him to go unpunished to Belarus? After all Wagner rebellion was something of a whim.
Yes Jack, but Putin is not being consistent. If he would go on t.v. and say this was all a big misunderstanding between a couple of hot-heads that would make sense – but instead he says Prigozhin is a traitor while at the same time dropping the case against him – which just makes Putin look a dishonest liar. Of coarse there are Russians that will somehow distort their brains to somehow accept Putin’s word as the biblical truth, but for rational people this is not possible – he is just a 2-faced liar (seems to be normal/expected in Russia – and I guess we also have our politicians who seem to be able to present two incompatible truths with a straight face).
Luka is making more sense (see Tatyana’s post above).
I guess he want to be the unifier/calming actor something that most russians support and he did not call Prizohgin a traitor, he did not mention him personally and rather said the Wagner troops had been misled.
Putin do not rule every little detail in Russia the fault rather lies with the russian army.
Jack says the fault rather lies with the russian army.
The russian army is certainly rotten to the core. See https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1673735378073690112 for today’s episode.
However, Putin and his cronies are the people who made this army. When does the buck stop with the army and not the commander in chief? It is virtually the entire system that is corrupt and disorganized. (However, presumably some parts of industry are mostly free of corruption since western companies would not have been able to set up shop if they were knowingly breaking foreign corrupt practice laws – so Putin at least cleaned part of the economy such as car manufacturing – take that with a pinch of salt, since western companies have been known to ignore their own laws when it comes to turning a blind eye to others peoples corruption). It is of coarse impossible to fix – which is why I see no ethical issue pointing out the problems (the russian war hawks also see the same problems, so its not likely Putin is going to read my thoughts and say wow we should change this),
It seems the EU still does not have laws against foreign bribery – this is only proposed: https://www.whitecase.com/insight-alert/proposed-eu-anti-corruption-directive-how-does-it-compare-us-and-uk-gold-standard
The US FCPA was introduced in 1977, the UK adopted similar laws in 2011.
Andrew H
Putin do not rule everything inside Russia, this is a common misconception by westerners analyzing Russia. If anything as far as Putin goes, he have tried to make the army up to date after soviet collapse but there are powerful interests that make the development slower than it has to be which I believe have been very apparent since the invasion.
if you believe Putin somehow will become less popular after this I believe you are badly mistaken, the russian population put their fate in stability and that is what Putin is known for, they do not want chaos.
Since you brought up Girkin earlier: What would Girkin do if he had power during this rebellion? Initiate a civil war? You really believe the russian population would support that position over Putin’s? Thus you are focusing way too much of what a specific small clique thinks about this rebellion.
When have I said Putin will become less popular? (except amongst the group of milbloggers?) I don’t care for his popularity – it has no bearing on anything. He is a well entrenched dictator – only his death will bring a change in leadership, and a change in leadership will not fundamentally change the regime. Not everyone loves Putin in Russia – that one can see from various interviews on https://www.youtube.com/c/1420channel, but for the most part the people’s opinions are irrelevant and they know that and accept that. Younger people are more willing to express their dissatisfaction.
There is substantial evidence of Putin’s own corruption – it is not possible for the boss to be corrupt while everyone else is squeaky clean – so the slow development of the army is directly related to Putin’s leadership and his own inability to be an honest broker and find ways Russia can progress. The decision to invade Ukraine was certainly Putin’s.
Girkin would do nothing. He literally has 10 people in his angry patriots’ club, and none of them are armed. Sure he would do a coup if he could – but he is a long way from having the means to do that. How is he going to march on the kremlin with 9 others and kick Putin/Shoigu out? All words and no action.
Now, having read your question again, I realize I have not answered your question, so will try again. Assuming that Girkin was in power (instead of Putin), then nothing would be different – although he might have started this war earlier, but who can say? – he is so full of shit. He is part of the same corrupt system. Although as an underling he can see the faults at the top, if he were at the top he would be in the same position as Putin, only clinging to lies. He is also part of this segment of society that is bitter about the break up of the soviet union and wants to undo Ukraine’s sovereignty and reverse the events of 1990.
Andrew H
I dont follow, on the hand you have made the argument for days that Putin is considered weak but when I bring up his huge popularity you are saying that his popularity does not matter anyway. It is like you are moving the goal posts every time you are running low on arguments.
I did not say everyone support him, the majority do support him.
And again, he is no omnipotent power, he do not rule every molecule, evey decision: take a look on a world map. You really believe 1 person rule that whole mass called Russia?
You are focusing way too much on what minorities think (1420 channel, harwkish mil bloggers etc). You get totally off in your analysis. Besides if Girkin only have 10 followers, why on earth do you care so much what he says?
And now you admit that you do not appreciate Girkin at all – only when he makes argument you like, apparently you use this and that argument, cherrypicking galore, to somehow paint bleaker picture than it really is. It is quite obvious what you try to do Andrew.
Jack: Besides if Girkin only have 10 followers, why on earth do you care so much what he says?
Because he makes logical sense (as does Prighozhin and some other minorities). Also fairly well informed about what is happening. I have no interest in debating with the bioweopon labs, look at the nazis, all going to plan, love Scott Ritter crowd (even if they are the majority). It’s like trying to discuss election fraud with Trump supporters. I didn’t spend years studying math and science, then having a real job that exercised my brain to have it reduced to pulp by nonsense. The same reason I don’t mind to discuss with you (instead of Bayard/Tatyana) – it’s not that I think you are important, but that you put forward reasonable arguments. You may not have the same opinion as me, but you are not trying to reduce my brain to mush with contradictory and stupid statements.
Putin may not rule every molecule, but he sets an example for society. If he is corrupt then corruption will be endemic. If he clings to power, then others cling to power. If he refuses to yield to the younger generation then society stagnates. If he stifles debate then there is no discussion. If he is uncompromising then he sows the seeds of rebellion.
Andrew, I don’t like your way of presenting your arguments in a toxic manner. You obviously consider yourself to be a rational person, so I don’t see why you would suddenly object to being repaid with the coin that you yourself are willing to use, would you?
Thanx 🙂
I thought that if you allow yourself to speculate about “some Russians”, then I may allow myself to speculate about “some haters” (and even feel perhaps more morally superior, since my definition is not based on nationality / ethnicity. What do you think, Andrew?).
Without getting too eloquent, Andrew, the haters, they would have found something to screw up anyway. If Wagner had been shot at, or Prigozhin had been imprisoned, then the haters would now describe how meanly Putin betrayed those who fought for Russia. Although, I can imagine that the haters would praise Putin for scrupulous observance of the law, in case the Russians suffered huge mass casualties during the incident.
Haters should realize that Putin is acting in the interests of the Russian people, including in extraordinary situations. Although it seems to me that this is what the haters are well aware of, and this is what infuriates them incredibly.
Andrew, I feel like I may have been too toxic, so I decided to add some more.
A friendly advice. It’s normal to criticize people for their position, it is not normal to criticize people for who they are. To learn to distinguish one from the other, you can conduct an experiment:
step 1: pretend that you are a decent person and everyone is equal in your worldview
step 2: replace in your comment Russians with distorted brains with Jews with distorted brains
step 3: evaluate the effect.
If you feel that the Jewish version sounds wrong, while the Russian version is still pretty fine, then you might like the phrase “I hate two things: racism and n***s”.
Tatyana, let’s start with the statement that you took offense to and apply your steps:
“Of course there are Russians that will somehow distort their brains to somehow accept Putin’s word as the biblical truth.”
Becomes: “Of course there are Americans that will somehow distort their brains to somehow accept Trump’s word as the biblical truth.”
Honestly, I would have to agree.
Or becomes: “Of course there are Israeli citizens that will somehow distort their brains to somehow accept Netanyahu’s word as the biblical truth.”
Honestly, hard to disagree.
There is nothing racist in any of the above statements.
You say you hate nazis. Putin is basically Hitler, so I hate Putin. The Z Russians are basically nazis – they have invaded a sovereign nation and committed numerous war crimes (for what?). I think it is not unreasonable for me to say that I hate all Russians that support this invasion (I didn’t actually say that, but I am ok with that, and I can certainly see why Ukrainians hate a lot of Russians now – it’s unavoidable). It is not racism or anti-Russian to hate people who have committed numerous atrocities or to hate their supporters. It is just called being human. How can you describe a Ukrainian who hates the Russians that invaded his country as racist? (especially as many of these Russians are using ethnic slurs to describe the Ukrainians). You are being absurd.
”Putin is basically Hitler, so I hate Putin.”
This is quite close to the grasp of history pumped out by western media. It is based on a Churchillian narrative (Churchill was one of the great ‘appeasers’ in history as seen at Yalta and Potsdam) that one must never negotiate with ‘dictators.’ (Putin is an elected Head of State.)
In my lifetime Nasser, Saddam and Assad have all been claimed as ‘basically Hitler’ before Putin inherited the throne. To an O Level history pupil in the UK, anyone who acts against western interests is ‘Hitler.’ The Atlee government of 1945 was deemed a ‘Gestapo’ by the great man, Churchill, himself.
David
Andrew H vehemently denies Azov are nazis. that’s the context in which his claims to revile Hitlerism, antisemitism etc should be assessed.
The Nazi party were elected into power and Hitler appointed chancellor according to the constitution. It was only afterwards that all opposition was eliminated.
Putin had the Russian Constitution changed so he could remain in power until 2036 by which time he’ll be older than Joe Biden.
Andrew H
You get it backwards, for years ethnic russians have been shelled pretty much because they are russians by neo-nazi groups. The people in Donbas is not considered ukrainians according to alot of ukrainians but russian occupiers.
Why did this happen? Becaue of the coup of 2014, brought forward to much credit of violent anti-russian neo-nazis.
Who do you think Hitler would have supported? The russians or groups that cheer Bandera, Azov, Right Sektor, C14 etc and other real nazis doing nazi salutations in every other video running around with Waffen SS chevrons and having neo-nazi youth camps?
I do also do not like the invasion but as far as nazis, they are in Ukraine.
Good Moscow time morning , Andrew 🙂
Unfortunately, your explanations did not convince me.
Let’s start with your recent stance on Nazism, add to that your pro-Ukrainian position, and the toxic style of your comment?
As a rational person, you can’t help but agree that the natural conclusion is that your language fully reflects your inner state, that is, you simply hate Russians.
The “replacement exercise” is a good way to test the conclusions for truth. Let’s apply it here:
If the phrase ‘Putin fans’ (or similar) was used, then this would not cause a problem. Instead, you chose to spread your hatred to a much larger group of people.
Let’s finish our morning exercises with this.
And for evening fitness, we can leave the analysis of the fact that you clearly catch the difference between ‘Jew’ and ‘Israeli’, when for ‘Russians’ you have no such differentiation.
Whichever way Andrew H might want to look at it, it is Putin’s statesmanship that has prevailed and he has been able to turn a sow’s purse into a silk ear. Give credit where credit is due.
Crispa, I believe it’s Lukashenko who made it possible. I’m going to print his portrait for my garland, and let it be in between Hua Chunying and Roger Waters 🙂 hope all the great peacemakers don’t mind.
On a side note, I’ve just had an Instagram post banned in Belarus. Not sure why, it was a video of me serenading my dog Eric to an Enya song. It does in a way promote a peaceful happy lifestyle but I cannot fathom how or why that video is blocked in Belarus. I don’t really care tbh. But you know, it’s topical! My Instagram is herodeus_asp if you’d like to verify the truth of my words and investigate my claim!
Alastair Terry, thanks for invitation, but no.
I had a long and productive presence on Instagram and Facebook as my small business was geared towards selling worldwide. Unfortunately, Meta, which owns Instagram and Facebook, has changed its hate speech policy. Namely, specifically for the inhabitants of Ukraine, and some other specially selected countries, the Meta company allowed calls to kill Russians.
This decision was the reason for Roskomnadzor to ban Meta’s social networks, and for me it was the reason to protest personally by refusing to use their products.
Which occupied Ukraine, that of the Donbas loyalists or that of the US-Ukronazis?
Living through history! Read Lukashenko’s speech as reported by the Belarussian state news agency, and what an amazing story. Beautifully diffused by talking/negotiating and no blood bath thankfully. I’m so sorry about the pilots who were shot down, but it could have been a whole lot worse. Good thing it wasn’t in the US. Patrick Lancaster’s video of events in Rostov were very re-assuring also. I’m glad it is over! Alina Lipp’s video of the road to Moscow wasn’t very revealing – Wagner troops were supposedly pulled up on the side of the road. She reports on Telegram. My access to Telegram is very poor. Anyone see it?
Hi, Rosemary 🙂 we were so happy about avoiding civil war, that decided to celebrate Potato Spas on June 24 annualy. Well, it’s just a new meme, but I truly hope it gets as longliving as the Beyoncé Photo Deletion Day.
Another unexpected thing is Álvaro López Miera, the Minister of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Cuba, is visiting Moscow, meets with Shoigu right now. Any ideas why? Should we be worried?
I hope we deserved a break in historical events, or I’m afraid I won’t be able to meet my expenses for hair coloring.
Hi Tatyana
I’ve been thinking of you and hoping all is well. And I, also, don’t want to live through history in the way of a civil war. Your President is much too smart to let that happen – resolution was very Putinesque in my opinion. Sounds like Alvaro is meeting with the right person, Shoigu is Minister of Defense, I believe. Cuba wants to join Brics very much and to get away from the domination of the US dollar etc. UN General Assembly vote was 185 to 2 against the US backed sanctions. There are a lot of shortages in Cuba and Canadians going on holiday there are asked to take stuff – drugs, bandages etc etc with their baggage. There is an outfit which will supply one with what is most wanted. This bullying of Cuba has been going on for over sixty years! I don’t think you should be worried and I’m too old to worry about hair colouring – been grey a very long time!
Just today, on the road, I was thinking that, frankly I would rather spend this finance on my hobby than on hairdressing services. But, a handsome young man was waiting at the door of my workshop, so I almost decided that I need to throw these harmful thoughts away 🙂
Rosemary, I got closer and oh! it was a shock! I recognized him as Sasha, my son’s classmate!!! It’s a strange feeling to belong to another generation… Sasha and his friends rented a nearby workshop for rehearsals of their rock band, today it was something like Destination Calabria, and pretty good. It seems my work will be more fun now. But still the priorities in spending in a beauty salon require additional thought.
I do not think any rational president or prime minister would sacrifice his pilots and soldiers in some fantastical double cross. I see it as an attempted coup which had virtually no chance of success. The cook might have been led to believe ( perhaps from external sources ) that he would have much more support than he actually had and when reality dawned on him that he would be destroyed he performed a reverse ferret !! Putin is in no hurry to resolve the situation. He has bigger fish to fry !
Lukashenko describes Prigozhin “was in euphoria”, that is, inadequate. Putin was ready to “wet” the Wagners, that is, to kill them. Lukashenko says that the first task was to bring Prigozhin to his senses, to make him think with his brains, and not play with emotions. When this happened, Prigozhin realized the reality and made decision. For the better.
I must say that people would not forgive Putin for the destruction of the Wagners.
The name Ashley Babbit comes to mind. That story shocked me. From my side, it looked like this: there were doubts about Biden’s victory in the elections, Biden’s team did not recount the votes, and people went to the Capitol to demand their legal rights. Ashley, an American veteran, was shot dead, legally. But what is the most mind-blowing thing – the Americans swallowed it!
It was obvious to me that in the USA there are simply a lot of laws, and very clever lawyers can always pull out one suitable one from the heap. In the days of the USSR this phenomenon was well known – был бы человек, а статья найдется – give me anyone and I’ll pick up the law by which he goes to jail. Hey, Mr. Murray is one!
—
Of course, Mr. Murray is right at the very beginning of his article, saying “who would have thought that a private army is a bad idea.” And Shoigu is right in demanding that Wagner conclude a contract with the Ministry of Defense. But it seems to me that even the most official general of the Russian Army can one day go crazy and arrange a mutiny, because the legitimacy of the position does not insure against mutiny. Simply it is not connected as a reason and consequence.
“I do not think any rational president or prime minister would sacrifice his pilots and soldiers in some fantastical double cross”
How do you know that anyone died? Oh, yes, it was on the internet, so it must be true. Even if some aircraft did get shot down, that doesn’t necessarily have to be part of the plan. Mistakes happen. “The best-laid plans of mice and men….”
You are a leader of a large country at war and you are informed by a old mate that he has been approached by a foreign power friendly to the enemy to see if he would be interested in using his private army for a little lucrative rebellion. What do you do? Do you ask him to go along with the charade to flush out all the people in your country who would support such a rebellion, or do you ask him to just tell the foreign power where to go and miss out on all the dosh?
Putin has admitted that aircraft were shot down and their crews lost. Surely he wouldn’t be telling any lies..
Of course he wouldn’t when he is supporting your pet theory. Otherwise, he’s a politician, so yes. Isn’t that how it goes?
as apparently there again was a minor Black Sea incident involving RAF yesterday, a historical question:
Was the breach of British intelligence by pro-Russian English elites like the Cambridge Five, the Klaus Fuchs case et. al. a reason for British intelligence turning so anti-Russian as it is today?
Or were those double-agents only exceptional incidents within an elite that has always hated Russia re: Crimean War etc.
The UK hatred of Russia goes at least as far back as Catherine the Great. It’s a bit irrational since both countries are powers at the fringes of Europe and have always been half in and half out of that continent. The UK has invaded Russia a couple of times, most recently to try and remove the Bolshevik government, but so far as I am aware Russia has never invaded the UK.
The Soviet spy rings based in the UK were a response to the growing Nazi threat in Europe in the mid to late 1930s. The atomic spies were mostly driven by a fear of a unipolar world where only one country possessed nuclear capacity. Aware of the USSR’s imminent acquisition of atomic weaponry, the USA did consider a pre-emptive strike on the USSR as late as 1949, hence the importance of microfilm for Fuchs and the like. The US decision not to go ahead was based on practical rather than moral reasons.
Anti-Russian propaganda in the west has been ceaseless in my lifetime. I can recall but two positive stories: the first was Gagarin’s space flight in 1961, the other the destruction (described as a ‘collapse) of the USSR. I recall a space flight by a Russian woman called Valentina in 1964 (the first by a woman) was framed as evidence of the USSR’s lack of respect for womanhood. She should be a western feminist icon these days but don’t expect to see her achievement acknowledged in the MSM anytime soon!
The peculiar Valentina perception around here I wasn´t aware of.
(I wonder if fellow commentator Tatyana would know whether today Valentina in Russia is being acknowledged. Were Valentina a Western story we would have long seen books, films and mini-series about her. Rachel Weisz in space? Or rather Marion Cotillard? )
re: 1920-30s – how strong was the British labour movement?
Not necessarily just the Party but conviction within the people.
Labour history is a topic on this site from time to time.
The detailed assessments differ, but there is agreement, of strong labour movements on the Continent and in the US pre WWII.
But I wonder whether this was mirrored by a minority in a left-leaning British elite.
p.s. Catherine the Great, possibly out of fear for a new peer in Asia, the playground of the British? And the Mediterranean?
Valentina is well acknowledged in Russia, thanks for asking AG.
Valentina Tereshkova is the Hero of USSR, today she is the State Duma member. Her name is one of symbols here.
As well as another name every Russian know – Zoya Kosmodemianska, the first woman Hero of the USSR. A young girl who fought nazis. She was captured and tortured to death, and she hardly was 18 years old then.
The monument dedicated to Zoya was recently destroyed in Keiv, Ukraine.
It was announced that the monument to another Hero of the Soviet Union, a native of Ukraine, Mikhail Petrovich Kirponos, will be demolished next. Kirponos commanded the Kiev military district and died in battle with the nazis in 1941.
—-
You see, national hero of Ukraine is Bandera.
Brodsky, the Ambassador of Israel to Ukraine commented “Ukraine needs national heroes, even those whom we may dislike. I know they’ve chosen nazis for heroes, the very same nazis who killed us (Jews), so, well, today I cannot see what can be done, we will support Ukraine anyway”.
It is a pity that he did not explain why exactly he considers it impossible to protest against the glorification of the Nazis in modern Ukraine. There is a UN resolution, after all.
thx for the info
Fortunately the writer Brodsky doesnt have to witness any more what the diplomat Brodsky is doing.
the gentleman Ambassador is indeed puzzling.
In any other country we know what he would have to say.
Not so here.
Again confirms what I have always suspected of most diplomats.
Most unusual bed fellows have become common the past 18 months.
to quote Mel Brooks once again: “Dont be stupid be a smarty come and join the Nazi party”.
Since what else is there to do but laugh.
Not so here, you say? I’m afraid you’re behind the times on the news, AG.
Do you have a gay pride going on right now?
Video from Munich, sing the glory of Bandera directly from the stage
https://pikabu.ru/story/v_myunkhene_speli_pesnyu_pro_banderu_v_khode_lgbtparada_10418162
I’m sure those gays singing ‘Bandera is our father’ may also say something in the spirit of ambassador Brodsky, like ‘yes, we know that the policy of the Nazis was to destroy gays, but we will continue our support’.
The world has just gone crazy.
Zelensky’s latest military plan is called “Zelensky’s peace plan”.
Orwell, ‘war is peace’.
When I visited Munich last year, several city buidings were of course lit in Blue-Yellow during the night.
At the same time when discussions about unnecessary use of energy in public space were going on…
(I mean “we” by now love to give art awards to anybody from Ukraine. The highlight was the peace prize of literature given to a poet who likes to do right-wing anti-Russian texts. Very peaceful indeed. When people criticized the decision, you can imagine what happened. I am saying this in fact as someone defending the freedom of art, putting Celine on stage despite him being an ardent Nazi, or Ezra Pound for that matter….But you ought to know exactly why you do what…and for that you need to use your brains not your butt. And in all these cases it is all too apparent that its not about the “art” but something else, which has nothing to do with art. The icing on the cake: In the few cases when the Ukrainian recipient shared an award with a Russian, former declined to take part in the ceremony. These people are just insufferable.)
The queer movement has long been captured by arms manufacturerers.
Germany´s top 10 companies are all involved.
e.g. as sponsors of gay pride events (Hey CM, why not ask BAE for festival money?!)
Here you can see a few images how its done (from 2021):
https://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=73695
(I especially like the Frontex trucks with Pride flags passing refugees on the beach)
arms manufacturererererers…
AG, I thought that maybe songs were small steps towards the normalization of Nazism. It seems to me that at the next event, the Ukrainians might offer a torchlight procession, selling it as a “fire show”. Many people might willingly follow without even knowing the meaning of their action.
Then, one could make a lecture about the ancient Indian symbol used by the brave fighters for independence, and encourage everyone to tattoo such symbols on themselves.
I imagine government-controlled media may use photos from such events and tell us that a lot of people support it, so, well, democracy is the rule of majority …
It’s not that I submit ideas to their PR manager, I just see how and where it goes. Zelensky himself used this technique. In those days when he was still just a comedian. He comically portrayed Nazism in Ukraine, ostensibly to prove the absurdity of the accusation.
It was the moment I caught such a special feeling that he was not playing, but deliberately whitewashing what he tried to pretend he is mocking. By that moment, I already had seen a cake in the form of a baby wrapped in a Russian flag, and people ritually eating it, laughing, and assuring everyone that this is such a haha funny joke. They pretended to be nazi cannibals and invited the audience to take the performance as a grotesque for fun. I understand a lot about art, and art is created by people for other people. But that particular performance was definitely something else.
A good illustration I met just today. The text:
“I really respect the German police! I came across a video where a policewoman detained a guy, fell in love with him and had sex with him for 30 minutes! At first I thought that this may have been just a single case, but it turned out that there are a lot of such videos, and even a whole section of the site is reserved for this.”
That’s the type of artistic styling I was talking about. You understand that the text was written intentionally, and the author kept under control all aspects of perception.
Dear Craig,
Thierry Meyssan’s explanation of the Wagner events in Russia is the clearest and most convincing one I have read. It’s in the first few paragraphs of his blog here: https://www.voltairenet.org/article219564.html (in English). You’ll find the original French there too.
Best regards,
Thank you Christophe that is a good explanation which makes sense.
Thanks from me, Christoph.
I’d like to let the author know that there’s an error, but unfortunately I didn’t find how to contact.
“He accused Wagner of murdering thousands of his men.”
When in fact it was Wagner who accused Shoigu of this.
Also, I could tell the author that the penultimate para can be illustrated with a wonderful picture!
One of the Wagner’s tanks got stuck at the gates of the Circus (it’s adjacent to the headquarters). We now have a lot of photos and super funny jokes circulating.
According this guy it was 12 helicopters and 20 personnel killed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc57-zH-0T4
Other reports say 6 Helicopters and a Plane.
Either way it is a lot.
If I was in Wagner I would be raging at Prigozhin. He used them as sacrificial pawns in his insane game of thrones maneuverings. There could have been a real bloodbath there. He may still be popular now but I can see that reversing very quickly. What he did was nuts at the end of the day and really dangerous.
A lot of the claims he made about Ukrainian advances etc were proven not true but everything seemed designed to stir things up and encourage rebellion. Saying the reasons Putin gave for the invasion were not valid, i.e. the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine, was crossing a huge red line.
Someone has been feeding him a lot of porkies for sure as he seems to have been delusional about the support he might get. That bubble burst quickly but who the hell ever managed to get him into that bubble in the first place. That guy is so finished in Russia after this. You can’t mutiny and kill 20 Russian military personnel and expect no payback.
Shaffer did not necessarily have the correct information (I watched that video and thought that Shaffer was not particularly well-informed on this occasion). More likely 2 or 3 aircraft and 12 dead.
Speaking to Garland Nixon, Scott Ritter has further backed up his view that this was an attempted coup and with British and American involvement. Watch from 20.00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_DkCUnMUac
In the preceding conversation he claims that the Kramatorsk strike was targeting US personnel.
Ritter’s probably going too far. The Ukrainian/NATO reaction to the events was not well-prepared in advance, so not that big a NATO conspiracy with Prigozhin. The Americans knew in advance, as they briefed Congress three days before, but seem to have done nothing to exploit the mutiny. Maybe they didn’t fully believe Prigozhin.
Scott Ritter has extensive US and Russian contacts and sources, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss his views.
In this Saturday night interview clip he is more specific about those Ukrainian/British/American preparations inside Russia that he claims were intercepted by the FSB earlier in the week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMyQuuVV-Q
I’m not dismissing his views at all. I just think that the fact that NATO took no action at all at the time is a signal that they were not ready to benefit from the opportunity the disruption gave. To me that says they didn’t fully believe what they were being told. Ritter doesn’t address this obvious point.
This meme applies to Ritter too. https://twitter.com/Sputnik_Not/status/1672558600487686145
Ha ha ha. So funny. Anybody trying to take Glenn Greenwald (quite possibly the finest journalist in the world) down is on a fool’s errand.
I haven’t had time to check Glenn’s recent contributions. Thanks for the reminder to do so.
Personally, I think the best review of the situation so far that I have heard comes from former MI6 officer Alastair Crooke who gives a thorough review of the evidence to date (yesterday) without cleaving to any conclusion in the face of the lack of any firmer evidence. I had hoped, given his background, that he might have had some insight into any role of the British but he didn’t offer any:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzMKF2F_5S8
I’m hoping for something better from former Lt Col Daniel Davis who is a well informed and pretty objective commenter – ie in terms of his reporting he doesn’t appear to particularly favour one side or the other. He too will be live on the Judge Napolitano Youtube channel, possibly later today or tomorrow.
Andrew H
Where did Greenwald claim CIA was involved with the alleged coup? Link!
It’s a meme Jack (on Sputnik NOT). Do you know what that is? I don’t read either Greenwald or Ritter. They both get everything wrong. Why don’t you tell us what Greenwald said – I doubt he was silent? Is he contradicting Ritter? I doubt he has anything intelligent to say. I don’t care for either of these clueless apologists.
Andrew H
Well you wrote Greenwald first and then edited out that why I was asking, Greenwald often get it right though, what has he been wrong about?
“I don’t read either Greenwald or Ritter. They both get everything wrong.”
Wow! How do you know that they both get everything wrong if you don’t read either of them? That’s a great talent. I wish I had your mental powers.
There are 8 billion people on this planet. For me, 1 sentence is often enough to assess the credibility of a person – both Greenwald and Ritter failed. Yes, it is quite amazing that I think a joke “sputnik not” account provides an accurate and reliable character assassination of Greenwald and others. Here is a nice one for Maria Zakharova: https://twitter.com/Sputnik_Not/status/1671580575931539474
You would indeed be more efficient if you had my mental powers for decision making. I work in industry and not government, so ruthlessness and efficiency makes my boss happy. When there are 8 billion decisions to be made, one sentence is enough to sort the good from the bad.
” I work in industry and not government, so ruthlessness and efficiency makes my boss happy. When there are 8 billion decisions to be made, one sentence is enough to sort the good from the bad.”
Andrew H
Glad I don’t have your mental powers with your arrogant off-hand attitude. Pity you weren’t around 80 years ago – your mental powers when put to use by a certain regime would have made you a real high flyer and there were only six million decisions to be made then, not eight billion. I think I might know what the “H” stands for now.
Ritter makes it up as he goes along. I’ve checked that pizza restaurant on Google and it’s a small single storey building adjacent to flats and across the street from a nightclub. There’s no evidence that there were any US personnel or that it was an operations centre as Ritter claims. Death toll now 11 including two 14 year old girls.
Do you talk about this?
https://pikabu.ru/story/v_kramatorske_pod_udar_popalo_kafe_gde_sobiralis_naemniki_10417130
In Kramatorsk, controlled by the Kiev regime, the city hotel, where officers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and foreign military instructors were accommodated, as well as the adjoining RIA Lounge cafe, came under attack. In the place where the missile strike was carried out, a meeting of NATO officers was held, the Military Business Telegram channel reported. The Americans did not hide themselves and posted their place of residence on social networks.
“There was a corporate party of the military”
Foreign language is clearly audible in various videos that have been released since the explosion. It can be seen that many of those who were wounded are wearing camouflage. There are many military jeeps and people in bulletproof vests around. “My last meal at this place, 20 minutes before the attack,” wrote an American reporter named Arnaud De Decker, attaching a photo of the ordered pizza. In the background of the photo, two men in military uniform are clearly visible.
Videos taken after the impact show a tattoo on the arm of one of those who helped, the number three inscribed in a diamond. Chevrons with this symbolism are used by veterans of the 3rd Ranger Battalion of the US Army. “There was a military corporate party there. Passed by half an hour before arrival,” the Ukraina.ru portal quotes an eyewitness comment.
Some of the mercenaries were lucky to leave Kramatorsk before the strike. “Jesus Christ, we always dined here!!!” – American Alex Galant wrote candidly under the frames from the destroyed diner. He calls himself an “international defender”, in fact he is a military instructor. Judging by the content on his social networks, he conducts trainings in Kramatorsk, teaching Ukrainian soldiers how to use weapons and navigate. A few days ago, he posted a video from the same Kramatorsk hotel, showing how to handle a gun.
His right hand is another American Levi Johnson, who also came on a business trip to Kramatorsk. In the description of his social media account, he calls the mission with which he came to Ukraine “humanitarian”. However, at the same time, Johnson is inseparable from weapons and spends time exclusively at the training grounds.
A joint photo with two mercenaries who came to Kramatorsk for training was posted by a 28-year-old volunteer named Yulia Skladana. “I would not hesitate to live these three months with you again,” she wrote. On the day of the attack on the Kramatorsk hotel, she already had completely different worries – Yulia took a selfie in a small black tight dress, going to an event in Kiev.
photos and videos available
https://pikabu.ru/story/v_kramatorske_pod_udar_popalo_kafe_gde_sobiralis_naemniki_10417130
the topic creator links to Arguments and Facts media
https://aif.ru/politics/world/otobedali_v_kramatorske_pod_udar_popalo_kafe_gde_sobiralis_naemniki#id=32930871
Pears you should study at the university, there you learn how to do proper scientific investigations because the fact is:
“There’s soldiers under this rubble all over”
The voice is from a british mercenary in the video in the link below.
The results of the strike on Kramatorsk
✔️Several foreign mercenaries showed up at the site of the strike, who, however, did not hide their presence in Ukraine and actively shared the details of their everyday life in social networks. Alex Gallant, Arno Dedecker and Nick Duckworth were seen among those who came on the “safari”.
✔️On one of the videos, a tattoo of a wounded man is clearly visible, indicating belonging to the 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment of the US Armed Forces. Either an instructor, or a mercenary, or they are there.
✔️Another video shows a man in a uniform with the emblem of the 101st Airborne Division of the US Armed Forces.
✔️ Foreign journalists and three Colombians were also at the facility – writer Hector Abad, politician Sergio Jaramillo and journalist Catalina Gomez.
✔️Among the liquidated there are also Ukrainian military. For example, the 22-year-old member of Azov (banned in the Russian Federation) Artyom Sukhovey.
https://t.me/intelslava/49482
In Kramatorsk, English-speaking “mercenaires” near the building that was shelled. Judging by the tattoo, one of them is a veteran of the 3rd Ranger Battalion of the US Army.
https://t.me/intelslava/49458
Although there are reports that Ukraine itself struck the site accidently:
https://twitter.com/CaptCoronado/status/1673833580051480576
The restaurant was popular with journalists and NGOs which would explain the English and other languages being spoken.
https://twitter.com/gullivercragg/status/1673807235074465794
The ‘3’ tattoo bears no resemblance to any emblem of the 3rd Rangers. I can’t find any image of the alleged US soldier from the 101st.
Also ‘liquidated’ in the attack were four children including Yulia and Anna Aksenchenko, both 14. Possibly you think their deaths justifiable collateral if one (alleged) Nazi was killed. A baby is also reported to have suffered head injuries. Please don’t waste everyone’s time with the predictable ‘whataboutery’ of how many children you think Ukraine/US/UK/Israel has killed. It’s irrelevant.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipMumoQyXeBJJk2hjFyl8325Fh2zw–WItlemmXZ=s680-w680-h510
Looks a military operations centre doesn’t it.
Attempts to divert blame onto Ukraine is obvious, predictable and shows that at least some ‘tankies’ are ashamed.
Pears, you need to check the links people provide to you, you see if you did you would understand that the link Tatyana gave you show videos, information, name of military instructors from the west.
https://pikabu.ru/story/v_kramatorske_pod_udar_popalo_kafe_gde_sobiralis_naemniki_10417130
This is one of the guys in the video/stills from the scene for example:
https://www.facebook.com/gallant.uacademy/
And it would not be the first time if Ukraine accidently hit themselves, happend numerous of times, where have you been?
Ah so they’ve been downgraded from mercenaries to trainers who we know are in Ukraine. No shock there.
I see that odious piece of excrement Scott Ritter is not contesting that it was Russian missiles but is blaming the victims for being in the building! He doesn’t mention the children who died, perhaps he thinks they were to blame for their own deaths too.
Pears
One can be an instructor and a mercenary there is necessarily nothing contradicting about that. Keep digging.
Of course the mercenary have a rightwing tattoo on his forearm underside and on one of his hand; seems like a typical pro-ukrainian deluded westerner.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=161062846667134&set=ecnf.100082902576495
perhaps your dispute may be resolved by a message from the Russian Ministry of Defense
https://ria.ru/20230629/kramatorsk-1881152653.html
“According to updated information, as a result of a high-precision strike on June 27 this year in the city of Kramatorsk, Donetsk People’s Republic, at the point of temporary deployment of the 56th separate motorized infantry brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, two generals participating in the headquarters meeting, up to 50 officers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as up to 20 foreign mercenaries and military advisers are destroyed.”
So both military and mercenaries are mentioned here, only civilians are missing, and the ministry is not in the habit of commenting on how they evaluate such deaths. A cynical person would say that headquarters meetings should not be held in civilian areas, but I think that such an argument has already a thousand supposedly suitable counterarguments, for experienced participants of Internet wars.
Also, to all those interested, I can recommend to read news in the original source.
https://eng.mil.ru/
The number 3 has some mystic/semi-mystic significance to tattoo aficionados.
https://tattooartfromtheheart.com/tattoo-meanings/number-three-tattoos-numerology-in-the-tattoo-world/
Well you’re right in one thing Tatyana, headquarters meetings would not be held in a public place open to civilians and journalists. Secrecy would be impossible so we can discount that. The Russian MoD are claiming ‘up to’ 72 killed but I doubt the place was ever that big. The words ‘up to’ make the number meaningless anyway.
Another account.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1673963229066698752
Beware this is from Russian sources. There is a lot of detail. [but, I can’t say I’m not slightly skeptical]. In a nutshell the Russians knew about the coup attempt in advance (so UK/USA/internet were not the only ones), and were trying to stop it before it started – but clearly this put more pressure on Wagner.
The reason I say I am skeptical, is that it reads like a daily mirror article (too much reliance on ‘inside’ sources, too much sensationalism – extrapolation of known facts to dubious conclusions). But there could be some elements that are correct.
you know sometimes things just are what they are, no psyop, no Makiroshka just a looney oligarch with a massive ego who has carefully carfted a great brand (especially on social media) losing the plot. Anyone watching this play out over the last months would not have put what happened beyond the realms of possibility. Prigozhins tense relationship with the MoD and his 20 year relationship (of great loyalty and usefulness) to Putin clash with the desires of Shoigu (and possibly Gerasimov) This also goes back to Syria where it is alleged that someone in the RF forces heirarchy fed information to the Americans who used their Al Qaeda allies to hit Wagner and kill 200 men. I think anyone wayching Prigozhins many videos on Telegram would be hard put not to see over the arrogance, triumph not a small amount of PTSD (doing a video shoot in front of a field full of fresh Wagner dead screaming at the high command for more ammunition) is not something you do in your right mind. I’ve always thought Prigozhin shows more than a hint of Bi Polar as well, great euphoria followed by crushing lows and public screaming matches. Its al been playing out for months. He has overused his Putin connection and now lost any credits he built up. One has to look at some of the men who REALLY run Wagner, tactically, Progozhin is no military mastermind, he’s a chef and a business man.
There is a small fringe of people in Russia, verbally critical of Putin and the SMO, who believe Russia isnt being hard enough in Ukraine and that they should take a more ‘American’ approach, ie. level Ukraine, destroy all infrastructure, kill millions and have done with it. There are quite a few sympathisers, I would call them 6th Columnists – people who outwardly support Putin and the SMO, and are in fact very patriotic but think he is too soft and thus at some kind of critical mass moment would betray and remove him. Is it organised with allies in Govt, the press and military? I don’t think so, if that was the case then it would all have happened on Saturday and it didnt, the country watched from afar and no one made a move. Many in fact got on to their private jets and scarpered.
I think Pregozhin is ill and needs a rest, he calls it his ‘march of justice’ wanting to publicly accuse and humiliate Shoigu and Gerasimov in the hope that Putin will side with him, he got it wrong. Whether he will live much longer is moot, once wagner is subsumed into the MoD (in seperate brigades and training centers) things may take a nasty turn for him. Wagner were not popular amonsgt the rank and file in Russian Forces, perhaps a bit of jealousy, they take all the credit on social media and get preferential treatment for sure even though their role has been quite small in reality. Excellent shock troops who did a great job in Soledar and Bakhmut (killing so many Ukrainians it has massively hampered the effectiveness of the now much derided ‘counter offensive’) but they are not a combined arms force so have limited useability.
Anyway one thing is for sure, Putin will use the opportunity to clean house, from bloggers to officials that did a runner to their island homes and those whose support for him didnt happen, there will be a bit of a rearranging of chairs. Proghozin wanted Shoigu and Gerasimov removed, that hasnt happened so Evegny, it appears, was bargaining only for his life at the weekend, not a deal.
There is much jubilation in Western media that Russia’s president has been weakened by last Saturday’s events. When CNN today asked the US President if he agrees Putin has been weakened he said, “I dunno, but he is clearly losing the war in Iraq..”
I feel that many posters here have their ‘favourite’ side in this conflict. Well, if that is how some of you feel, then that’s how you feel. Here’s a video that shows what it is actually like to find yourselves trapped in a minefield.
If this footage doesn’t make you join the demand for an immediate ceasefire and the start of peace negotiations I truly despair.
It’s the second video in the article. It’s 11 minutes of battle field reality. It may seem ironic to give a trigger warning about a war zone film, but I’m telling you now, it’s not Saving Private Ryan, this is for real…_
https://sonar21.com/judge-napolitano-and-i-discuss-prigozhin-plus-a-horrific-video-of-ukrainian-troops-trapped-in-a-minefield/
Yes that is grisly and shocking. Needs to be ended ASAP.
100% horrible
I watched it earlier in disbelief.
One question Digger. Towards the end the soldier jumps out and … Did the wehicle returned to pick up the last injured soldier and the poor guy jumped at the same “safe” spot where they were earlier? Hopefully you understand what I am wondering?
War propaganda ( ommiting) counteroffensive disasters keep us unconditionally supporting this madness.
Pigeon, there does seem to have been some editing, it has been the main thrust of those who argue it’s all staged. I’m satisfied by what I see, plus those who have (or at least claim they have) been in war zones, that it’s kosher.
I have found out a bit about mine laying techniques since this all kicked off. They come under the jolly name of “Family of Scatterable Mines”, FASCAM, these can be delivered by bombs, missiles, cannon, mortar and drone.
You just drop them around an enemy wherever you detect them and leave them to stew in the mess. Isn’t it amazing how many ingenious ways we come up with to kill and maim.
These shovel ready combat accessories have been around since the 80’s, nothing new. I, however, only learned about them a week or two back…_
https://www.defensehere.com/en/federal-service-for-military-technical-cooperation-showcases-land-systems
Txs
Back in 1999 the Ottawa Treaty raised the possibility of banning anti-personnel mines entirely.
Ukraine signed and ratified; Russia, along with China and the US, did not.
America has said it will comply with the treaty everywhere except the Korean Peninsula (South and North Korea also didn’t sign.)
Are not them lovely people? Wow, they signed under the obligations!
And sprinkled the streets of Donetsk with the very same anti-personnel mines. Have you been shown this? Anti-personnel mines right on the city streets?
https://youtu.be/339MYYPZuzE
https://youtu.be/ACUly-Hniqk
https://youtu.be/p8DLiRObn6s
Soldiers in the minefield at least have helmets, body armor, armored vehicles and first aid kits with them.
Your hypocrisy is disgusting.
Ukraine withdrew these mines and their delivery systems from use and is well advanced in the process of destroying their existing stock. Russia meanwhile continues to manufacture and deploy these indiscriminate devices.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/08/04/who-dropped-thousands-of-antipersonnel-butterfly-mines-on-donetsk/
No end of this war in sight…
Majority of Americans back weapons deliveries to Ukraine – Reuters
Support for arming Kiev has increased by nearly 20 points since may, a new poll has found
https://swentr.site/news/578866-americans-support-ukraine-weapons-poll/
One thought the westerners would wake up from this slumber and realize that Ukraine cannot reclaim all those territories now held by Russia. Instead they seems to have become even more entrenched in this fantasy.
It’s not up to us when the war ends. If we stop supplying weapons it won’t end the fighting (look at Syria).
Let’s suppose we had listened to you at the start of the war and not supplied Javelins and other anti-tank weapons – then perhaps Ukraine would not have been able to push Russia out of Kiev and Bucha. Do you agree that giving the Javelins was good for Ukraine?
Now, let’s suppose we had listened to you after that and not provided Ukraine with HIMARS to destroy ammo dumps and push Russia back from Khakhiv – then perhaps Ukraine would not have liberated that city and Oblast. Do you agree that giving HIMARS to Ukraine was good for Ukraine?
Now let’s suppose we had decided it was time for a ceasefire; well, then Russia would still hold Kherson on the other side of the river. Do you agree that our continued support for Ukraine was good for Ukraine – in that it allowed Kherson to be liberated?
Assuming you agree with the above, then isn’t it obvious we should continue to support Ukraine until they decide the time is right to negotiate a ceasefire? It is also clear that as long as we are supporting Ukraine, then they will get better terms for any eventual cease-fire.
Andrew H’s trolling style of arguing is familiar and is arrant nonsense, not worth point by point rebuttal, which is easy enough.
Andrew H
Oh absolutely not, I am not pro any weapons shipment because as I said, Ukraine cannot win back the territories, it is a fact, because in the end of the day Russia is the stronger part and have more soldiers to throw in. You should study WW2, Russians simply do not give up and are prepared to sacrifice alot to get to their goal.
If the west did not deliver tons of weapons the war would be over in a week, Ukraine would not be destroyed not to mention perhaps 150k or how many have died, would still be alive.
Ukraine is not the decision maker of anything, if anything it is becoming a rump state that is (almost) wholly dependent on western machinations and power, west even have the last word on where HIMARS should strike and you belieive Ukraine have any say? If the west cared about ukrainians, you have to explain why they are ok with perhaps 100k or more ukrainians that have died to this date plus why they still keep the war on going by not even calling for a ceasefire!
With your argument the Donbas people should be armed too to be able to kick out ukrainian occupiers, after all they have declared their independence and deep down you know there is no way back on that.
Your claim that Ukraine is a rump state is stupid and ignorant. Just as you say that most Russians support the war, Ukrainian polls show that 95% of Ukrainians believe it is necessary to continue fighting. https://theconversation.com/ukrainians-commitment-to-fight-off-russia-grows-stronger-as-does-their-expectation-of-victory-as-war-enters-second-year-196450
It was peaceful in Zaporozhzhia until you invaded in 2022. Noone there was asking you to come, so why did you invade? Why did you occupy Kherson and try to get to Odesa? You have no answers to any intelligent questions.
Donbas is not a sovereign state. Russia has been arming a civil war since 2014, so let’s not get all high and mighty on that. If Russia can arm Donbas for 8 years, why shouldn’t the west arm Ukraine until 2030? In fact, it’s not really a civil war, because the people in Donbas never asked Russia to interfere – Igor Girkin just went in and started a civil war, exactly according to the Georgia playbook. Why doesn’t Russia just return to the Minsk lines and allow Donbas to continue fighting on their own if that is what they wish – at least it might show Russia is serious about ending this war. In fact why don’t you just leave Ukraine entirely – Russia has no business being in Ukraine because it is a sovereign country as agreed by Russia in 1990. Let’s hear you agree that Ukraine is a sovereign state – you are not going to say that because it is not what your leader says – one day he will die.
You say 100k or more Ukrainians have been killed. How many Russians do you think have been killed? Russia started this and it can end it tomorrow by leaving. I give you my word I will not support Ukraine furthering this war once Russia leaves Ukraine.
Andrew H
It is a rump state by any means, Russia is in control of some 20% of the land. It is wholly, note wholly, dependent on western economic aid, note aid, not loans. That should tell you what a failed state Ukraine have become. Why do you think it is Ukraine and not Russia that have to beg for thousands of billions every day?
Of course majority of ukrainians support continued war: they are kept in the dark how many ukrainians have died, there are rampant censorship after Zelensky banned any critical media and put the media channels under state authority. If you hear everything goes fine by your leader you are of course going to believe that and believe you somehow can win against a stronger part. Brainwashing.
Besides ukrainian men are forbidden to leave Ukraine so what choice do they have?
If you look at the study linked, almost 90% of the polled ukrainians also want to keep fighting even if Russia would use nuclear weapons. I leave it at that…
Why do you say you for? I do not support the war I am just telling you some facts.
Some 20% of Zaporzhhiza are ethnic russians, they surely voted to join Russia and were likely the ones in majority that voted.
Donbas is not a sovereign state: it belongs to Russia and as far as the people in Donbas are concerned (- heck even Navalny supported Crimea annexation!), their view should be respected, of course Russia wont sit still when a anti-russian Maidan coup of 2014 was triggered. But you are OK with that since you disklike russians as you made clear with Tatyana earlier.
Remember Donbas was not part of Russia pre coup 2014. That coup triggered everything, you cannot deny that.
Ukraine is a sovereign state but is first and foremost a rump state, a failed state, the longer the war goes on, and this is apparently what you, west, Ukraine wants, well then there wont be much left I am sorry to say.
I do not know how many russians have been killed, fewer than the ukrainians are my bet.
No Russia cannot leave, if Russia leave ethnic russians will face ethnic cleansing and worse and you know that.
Jack: It is a rump state by any means, Russia is in control of some 20% of the land
Which doesn’t make it a rump state. As previously stated your comment is stupid and ignorant. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rump_state. I won’t argue this again, since I consider it to be trolling – join the bioweopon labs, look at the nazis, all going to plan, rump state, love Scott Ritter crowd if you want Jack. Its always your choice how you wish to present yourself.
It is literally the definition of a rump state, first google hit:
A rump state is the remnant of a once much larger state, left with a reduced territory in the wake of secession, annexation, occupation, decolonization, or a successful coup d’état or revolution on part of its former territory.
Do you know what the word ‘much’ means?
The definition is quite clear. Moreover if you have a general understanding of the English language (or any other language), you will see terms (words) are aligned with concepts (ideas) – and this is where we run into difficulties with people who have no grasp of what a concept is. Many countries’ borders have changed over the years to make them smaller – a smaller area doesn’t make a rump state – otherwise Mexico, Canada, India would all be rump states – and that is not a useful concept.
Now suppose Siberia were to become independent. That would not make Russia a rump state in most people’s minds even though it would, in fact, be much smaller (even losing 75% of territory), because Russian culture/capital centers around Moscow. This is quite an extreme example. On the other hand if Russia were to be overrun by the Mongols and what is left of the state gets holed up in Kamchatka, that would fit the definition.
Now I think if Ukraine were to lose Kiev and the remnant was squished up into the area around Lviv (like some of the Russians were sending out maps of in the early days), then it might be reasonable to call Ukraine a rump state. But that is not the case.
The talk pages on Wikipedia have some helpful info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rump_state
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AList_of_rump_states
Everything on these talk pages is stuff that has literally zero chance of ever being incorporated into the actual page. I honestly don’t know how the Wikipedia editors put up with all the vandals, trolls and uneducated people – I guess they make it easy to just undo.
On the 2nd article, we see that some moron has added Russia (politely under this is written original research and associated crap – as I say this has got to be very frustrating for the editors). Also Ukraine added by some anonymous. There is even Italy (as a rump state of Nazi Germany). Boy. And Canada, Japan, Czech Republic, etc. Remember this is the crap that is not going into the actual article for very obvious reasons.
Another very telling remark: I can’t find any dictionaries that even have “rump state” as an actual term, and this term doesn’t appear to be used very much by reliable sources.
Please find someone born in UK/USA with some academic background (published papers in a reputable journal), who is willing to go on record and say Ukraine is a rump state. In the mean time stop demonstrating your misunderstanding of the English language and your inability to separate distinct concepts.
Andrew H
20% is a significant part of a nation, will the remaining part even remain when this war is over?
If you see my quote, a definition for a rump state is for example through occupation or annexation.
Feel free to google rump state + ukraine and see for yourself, there are plenty of hits for this claim, not something I somehow made up.
Jack: Feel free to google rump state + ukraine and see for yourself, there are plenty of hits for this claim, not something I somehow made up.
Are you kidding me? Try submitting that logic to your professor at school – you are going to kicked out of university. Literally. It doesn’t matter if you made it up yourself, or if you copied some dope – you can find every kind of wrongness on the internet.
Also if I run that search, the hits I get are actually more or less along the lines of plans to turn Ukraine into a rump state, not that it is one. Few are from reputable academic sources. Steven Pifer is presumably some kind of academic (https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end/). He writes: However the war concludes, an independent and sovereign Ukrainian state will remain on the map of Europe, and it will be much larger than the rump state that Moscow apparently intended to leave one year ago. In other words he is saying Ukraine is not a rump state.
As previously stated terms (words) correspond to concepts (ideas), and your lack of understanding of them shows. As previously stated your claim that Ukraine is a rump state is stupid and ignorant. The fact that you back this up by claiming you found it on the internet is laughable. You are making a fool of yourself – I am guessing this is just how it is.
Andrew
I do not really understand your obsession on this. I mean everyone can read what a rump state is defined as; if you do not care about this fact, I could not care less so please leave that be for now.
• Having lost 20% of the land
• Having to beg the world for trillions of dollars
• Being corrupt to the core
• Being anti-democratic to the core
• Fighting a stronger enemy
• Ethnic/language strife
I mean you live in fantasy land Andrew if you believe things will go back normal for Ukraine. That is what is so dangerous with you slava-ukraini!-crowd. Your strategy do not save ukrainians – you are participating in their destruction because your goal is not the ukrainians – your goal is set to destroy Russia through Ukraine, to the last ukrainian, that is, apparently.
Jack: You should study WW2, Russians simply do not give up and are prepared to sacrifice alot to get to their goal
I think if you actually studied WW2, you would see Ukraine also sacrificed a lot. This idea that Russia has more determination than Ukraine doesn’t stack up.
Yes Ukrainians suffered alot too but the thing is Russia have more troops to use and could thus keep on far longer than Ukraine.
I don’t know – that is your opinion. It is not up to me – because just as in Syria even if the west stops aid, then those in Ukraine that are committed to continuing their fight for their lands will do so regardless. The reality is Wagner has just quit, so the Russia will outlast Ukraine theory is far from sure. For me Russia with 3 times the population against Ukraine with western weapons seems like a pretty fair fight.
As for the west giving up supplying weapons that seems even less likely. We just spent 20 years in Afghanistan in one of the most stupid wars ever – thinking we might bring western values and democracy including women’s equality and gay rights to a highly conservative male dominated Islamic tribal society. Everyone knew there wasn’t a hope of success after the first year but we carried on for another 19 years. Not since the Jacobites landed in Japan and went crawling though the Amazon forest hoping to convert the natives to some fundamentalist form of Christianity has there been such an ill-conceived cause. 20 years and we are still only in the 2nd year of Ukraine vs Russia.
By contrast this is some of the best money the west has ever spent fighting a war (certainly if you ask western war hawks). The cause is just (sovereignty of another country: like Iraq vs Kuwait, Russia vs Afghanistan, etc). Also, mostly we are dumping old weapons, upgrading eastern Europe to Nato standards etc, degrading Russia’s position in the arms industry (for example, India is now exploring options with the major western weapons’ manufacturers. HIMARs is apparently in huge demand), all while the defense industry booms. This is similar to the Afghan-Russian war where we didn’t send our own troops, just a few anti-tank weapons to the insurgents – they would probably have one in the end on their own anyhow. Before you say the outcome wasn’t particularly good in the Afghan-Russian war, you should try asking the Poles, Czechs and Baltic nations how they feel about the end of the Soviet empire. I am not saying all of the above are worthy goals, but it is important to understand the Washington perspective.
More importantly we still don’t know what Russia wants from this war. You say Russia will keep going until it gets what it wants, so what Russia wants is relevant. Hypothetically, assuming Ukraine was willing to negotiate what would Russia demand? We are not negotiating here and nobody of importance is reading this, so please be honest and give the minimal demands that Russia will settle for (so far we only hear the maximalist statements and even those are confused – a starting negotiation position – but since this is not an actual negotiation we can afford to be more honest)
Andrew H
Russia 143 million ppl
Ukraine 43 million ppl
Russia have the upper hand here. Period.
We do know what Russia want, they have said it many times:
Most likely the situation right now on the ground will become permanent, thus some regions
will be incorporated into Russia and no Nato for Ukraine.
Also, I think it is telling how all your arguments almost exclusively concerns how west should strike a military blow against Russia through the ukrainians as a proxy. There is literally no concern from you that 100k ukrainians have lost their life because of this strategy, how much do you care about ukrainian lives in the end of the day? Not much from what I reckon.
Jack, you know very well this type cares about Ukrainian lives about as much as they do about “women’s equality and gay rights” in Afghanistan. Which is to say, nothing at all. They are not arguing from a place of good faith. Do not treat them as if they are.
USofA 205 million ppl
Vietnam 34 million ppl
Should’ve been a walkover (1975 figures).
Afghanistan’s population is 40 million and neither the US or the USSR exactly covered themselves in glory.
Sarge: They are not arguing from a place of good faith
Of course I am arguing from a place of good faith. If you were to read and understand my arguments you will see that I am explaining the reasons why the US and western nations will continue to supply Ukraine with weapons until the end of the war. Even Jack wrote “Majority of Americans back weapons deliveries to Ukraine – Reuters”, so we actually agree on the conclusion. I am just helping to explain the reasons for this (in good faith) – instead of being upset by western policy, understanding it is a good starting point. Then it will be clear the end of the war will most likely come when Russia + Ukraine decide to end it. There may be a time when western support will drop, but I don’t think this is on the cards for now. I am not trying to change your point of view – only to give you a better understanding of reality.
At the moment, the vast majority of Ukrainians feel they need to continue and equally over 50% of Russians think they need to do a new attack on Kiev. These are not the right conditions for peace. I am not advocating for war – just pointing out the obvious (that peace isn’t happening). If this is depressing news for both Russians and Ukrainians then perhaps an end will come sooner, but I doubt it.
Pears
Not sure why my argument would not still be valid theoretically, US/Soviet did not exit the wars because of too many soldiers ready vis-à-vis their adversaries.
“If the west did not deliver tons of weapons the war would be over in a week, Ukraine would not be destroyed not to mention perhaps 150k or how many have died, would still be alive.”
Jack, your “logic” is hilarious.
If Russia had not invaded, the war would be over because it wouldn’t have started.
If Russia had not invaded, those 150k would not have died.
If the west had not provided weapons, Zelensky would be dead, Kyiv would have fallen, and Ukraine would now be a vassal state.
Andrew, excuse me for spoiling your drama, this one was really good. But I missed the usual ‘if you like our team, you can support us through WebMoney, Paypal’, etc.
I guess I spend too much time on the internet and see too much propaganda.
Seems I must have hit some nerves here.
Looks like I didn’t miss either.
Miss you did (as always) – I don’t have any social media accounts (like NAFO). That’s why I comment here under Craig, because I don’t need or want to set up some social media presence. I do try to follow some of the twitter accounts that are more informative, but Elon keeps taking away functionality for non-users like me (it seems every other week some feature disappears for those without an account). Certainly you will find no links where you can send me money, because I am random nobody without a web-site. PS How much money do you want to send me, and how do you wish to arrange the transfer – unless you want to send me a lot and you are not under sanctions, its not going to be worth figuring this out – just make your donation to anyone with a good NAFO icon (your choice).
Seems you’re wrong about my opinion of you.
Andrew, I really don’t mean to offend you. Not that you’re some particularly nice person, just out of my own principles.
But who in their right mind would trust you with money management?
In a parallel universe, if I were the Chief of War, your position would be a crowdfunding activist handing out flyers on the street and shouting a couple of slogans (I’d pick up a couple of short ones for you to make sure you could handle it).
And believe me, the payment details of YOUR account would never be printed on the flyers.
Tatyana: “But who in their right mind would trust you with money management?”
You are getting way off topic, but I’ll answer this one. You probably wouldn’t trust me with your money, but your bank manager probably would. Cast your mind back to your school days – there were probably 0, 1 or 2 kids in your class that seemed to be lost in their thoughts but somehow the teacher kept giving them A’s in math despite them being complete losers. Once they left for university you probably never heard from them again, because they never really talked to you in the first place.
Let me give you some simple money advice. You should rather trust the people that never ask you for a penny because they think it is not worth their time to even ask, that when you walk into their office and share your ideas they roll their eyes and make gestures suggesting they think you are a complete idiot wasting their time. Such people may not be nice, but looking after your hard earned money doesn’t require niceness. If you don’t believe me I’ll send you some pics of the gold bars (I bought in Feb last year) that I have just lying around my (mortgage free) home. I don’t have as impressive a stash as Prigs, but I have a simple trouble-free life that doesn’t cost a lot. You may also be rather surprised to know that far from being an incel I have 2 grown kids who I have relentlessly cajoled into study and sent to university so they could earn big and feel intellectually superior to others.
I once had a very wise boss: when I would get annoyed with idiots (you cannot imagine how frustrating it is having customers and team mates that are clueless) – he would try to calm me down by saying hey Andrew, be happy you are not one of them. So true 🙂
AH: “… I’ll send you some pics of the gold bars (I bought in Feb last year) that I have just lying around my (mortgage free) home. …”
JHC…. I think to myself, “There but for the grace of God go I” when I see someone feeling the need to go boasting about their cleverness and wealth, etc. etc. – in anonymity, to total strangers, on someone else’s blog.
Seriously Andrew? Are you going to impress a jeweller by showing me pictures of gold bars?
You were so focused on persuading me to admit that you have brains, that you forgot to show it.
Or, you expect to see mine in return?
If so, then I don’t play. I once got into a “I’ll show you, you show me” competition and what do you think? They sent me a dick pic!
It seems that something in the words of your wise boss escaped you. Don’t compare yourself with other people, the comparison may be not in your favor. Just be happy that you are who you are.
Wait, did you use the nickname Charles Bostock before?
AH
My gold bar is 10g. How big is yours?
That’s why I love this site.
Someday my grandchildren will ask me to tell them about the mutiny, and I’ll say “Oh, I remember… that was when Andrew and Pigeon English were figuring out whose bar was bigger.” That’s it, friends. You have entered history.
By the way 🙂
you want free advice* of a jewellerer, send to me pictures of your gold bars, I am seeing if they are swollen or what.
*Giving your mother’s maiden name and address of your home is a requirement to participate in the promotion.
What has interested me most about the “Wagner Coup” is the public comments on websites where this is reported. The western European websites are full of conspiracy theories. From Prigozhin trying to become a new Tzar to NATO buying off Prigozhin. The Russian comments were quite dismissive of Prigozhin. They spoke of expecting to see him next at a Florida beachside mansion or that he would quietly disappear (into a grave).
Most amusing of all are the western media claims that this exposes Putin’s weakness. How many western leaders could stop an armed protest march by making a speech.
one more re: Wagner
Patrick Lawrence has, as often, a lengthy piece, on this.
https://scheerpost.com/2023/06/29/patrick-lawrence-russian-melodrama/
Along the way he gives a link to the deleted passage of the now infamous interview WaPo had with Zelensky 6 weeks ago; WaPo had deleted interview parts about UKR secret service GUR involved with Mr. P from Wagner. What is true or not I have no clue, of course:
https://www.rt.com/russia/576285-wapo-zelensky-deleted-interview/
excerpt:
WaPo answers to Mr. Z´s criticism of the question posed by the paper:
“(…)
And I can read you what information exactly there is about Prigozhin and the GUR. On February 13, Kirill Budanov, chief of Ukraine’s Main Directorate of Intelligence, informed you about a Russian plan to destabilize Moldova with two former Wagner associates. Budanov informed you that he viewed the Russian scheme as a way to incriminate Prigozhin because “we have dealings” with him. You instructed Budanov to inform Moldovan President Maia Sandu, and Budanov told you that the GUR had informed Prigozhin that he would be labeled a traitor who has been working with Ukraine. The document also says that Budanov expected the Russians to use details of Prigozhin’s secret talks with the GUR and meetings with GUR officers in Africa…
(…)”
Where Lawrence does a good job at Scheerpost is point out strange things at the US homefront, which he knows better than RU, such as these passages on an Intercept article on the Wagner issue and a little Anne Applebaum, allow me to quote Lawrence:
“(…)I knew it was going to be fun reading the Western press on the Prigozhin affair as soon as I read James Risen’s report in The Intercept. “Yevgeny Prigozhin’s coup targets Putin and his ‘oligarchic clan’” was the headline. Not to overload readers with display type, but the subhead is equally terrif. “The mercenary’s bid for control may be the greatest threat to Moscow since the 1991 coup attempt against Mikhail Gorbachev.”
It was a coup. Its target was Putin and his “oligarchic clan,” whoever they may be. It was a bid for control. And as a threat to state power—let’s get some grand scale in here—it rivals the (properly named) coup against the late President Gorbachev 32 years ago.
It was not a coup attempt even by its perpetrator’s description, there is no such clan, it was not a bid for control, and the events of last Saturday are as house dust in the corner next to the events of 1991. Four preposterously conjured untruths before you even get to the text, wherein lie many more. Is this just wonderfully imbecilic or what?
Risen’s piece was published at 1:29 East Coast time last Saturday afternoon. You would want to call this professionally imprudent given the kinetic nature of events, but this kind of thing matters not to reporters such as Risen. What the piece records—and pretty well, I have to say—is what Risen, who has never been a correspondent abroad and it shows, wanted to be unfolding across an ocean and half a continent. He wanted a coup attempt. He wanted sudden instability. He wanted the beginning of the end of Putin and his “oligarchic clan.” (If only Risen had troubled to identify this lot, but when you put “Putin” and “oligarchs” in the same sentence there is no need.)
(…)
It is fun for a while, but even fun has its limits.
And reliably as ever, our Anne Applebaum, the compulsive Russophobe’s compulsive Russophobe, exceeded this limit once again this week.
Her piece on the Prigozhin affair—published in The Atlantic Saturday afternoon—but again, why wait when you know what you will say regardless of events?—appeared under the headline, “Russia Slides into Civil War.” If you like that, you will find the subhead simply priceless: “Is Putin facing his Czar Nicholas II moment?” Tell me you can beat this for sheer idiocy. In an update time-stamped 6:58 Saturday evening, Applebaum retreated from a few of her wilder assertions. She admits now, if implicitly, she has no idea what she is talking about: There are only “theories,” which is an improvement. But the thesis stands as we speak. And as evidence she quotes none other than Yevgeny Prigozhin’s videos. “Everyone who will try to resist,” says the one she singles out, “we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way.”
(…)”
since Declassified UK reported just today:
“CPS has destroyed all records of Keir Starmer’s four trips to Washington
US records show Starmer met with Attorney General Eric Holder and a host of American and British national security officials in Washington in 2011, when he was in charge of Julian Assange’s proposed extradition to Sweden.
MATT KENNARD
29 June 2023
https://declassifieduk.org/cps-has-destroyed-all-records-of-keir-starmers-four-trips-to-washington/
hopefully my last post for now:
Don´t know how far this is a brainchild by Gordon Hahn or has more to it:
(It´s certain that NATO needs stuff happening. Question to what cost and extent.)
On a confrontation between NATO/Poland/Baltics and Belarus – then supported by Wagner troops which would be the only ones with battle experience in this area:
“The Belarus Knot and the Expansion of the NATO-Russia Ukrainian War”
https://gordonhahn.com/2023/06/29/the-belarus-knot-and-the-expansion-of-the-nato-russia-ukrainian-war/
last paragraph:
“(…)
Should Warsaw, Riga, Vilnius, and Tallinn decide to challenge the Russians and Belarusians and send what will be a de facto NATO force into western Ukraine after the NATO summit rejects an official guarantee of Kiev’s entry into the alliance as is expected, they will meeting up with Mr. Prigozhin and Wagner’s next expedition. Then NATO, more precisely an aged Joe Biden, will be forced to make a decision as to whether a Belarusian-Polish conflict in Ukraine can be fit under the rubric of the NATO Charter’s Article 5. If the decision is positive, then nit just Mr. Prigozhin but we all be in completely new territory.
(…)”
p.s. not sure if Mr. Scholz, Macron and friends did think this through when agreeing to jump onto this train instead of another one. But this does qualify as forever war.
AG, in my view this is the way things are panning out your post is close to the mark.
The thing is: Is NATO (excluding the US) prepared to sacrifice its European Military in the defence of Ukraine?
I think I can safely say that the US will stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, as long as no hair on an American head is touched. That means the Europeans may fight the 3rd World War in Europe as the US has fought the 1st and the 2nd ones.
We shall wait and see what sacrifices the Europeans will make to defend Neo – liberal economics (sorry Democracy). This in my view is what is at stake here. Never forget as far as the US is concerned the EU as a trading body is a rival similar to China to American capitalist hegemony.
I very much doubt the image of Europeans fighting.
But what is “European?”
20,000 special ops from all over EU are enough to start anything big and dumb enough.
So you don’t need John and Jane for this.
Treating RU/BEL as a case like Africa or Afghanistan. Just closer.
On the other hand: There are those WMDs.
And I assume the risk is still too high even after a successful first strike by US submarines and stealth bombers (the EU-bases are merely secondary in this) with 90% of RUs missiles destroyed.
So then it’s basically maneuvering the edge of the knife to keep Europe in check.
And since you mention trading – US GDP has finally surpassed EU GDP by 50%. As a result of sanctions and NS 1&2.
So mission accomplished.
Goal #2 would be to keep China out of Europe. A hot crisis in Belarus would come handy for that purpose.
The US has additionally to keep an eye on South America. So it’s teamwork on the Eastern flank: We pay, they profit.
Alexander Mercouris at TC 38:00 for 4 minutes talks about possible negotiations in autumn as suggested by a London Times editor, who of course I dont know, but who seems to be wrong mostly about RU, but does give a good picture of US-GB thinking.
idea: negotiations on UKR partition between RU US going on for several years until war ends as frozen yoghurt. (sry, my second Mel Brooks moment)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzPIlKplBc
p.s. since it is mentioned often – what I do not understand, why is Europe suffering when spending money on arms whereas RU is allegedly not doing the same thing AND losing people.
(At least this is a perspective by many critics of the West, but I don’t get the underlying economics – since waging war is expensive business, regardless who is committing to it.)
p.p.s. what about RU arms manufacturers? They too will be interested in profit? Just like the ones here. Or what’s the structure there in terms of state control and MIC.
In my opinion, Poland will enter the war. They owned part of the territory of Ukraine historically. Lithuania probably too. There was some kind of Polish-Lithuanian state in history, Lithuania can also declare that they have a genuine interest in participating in the war. Perhaps Latvia and Estonia may join, because the Baltic countries always go together. Participation in the war should give territorial gains to all these countries and they will even be able to justify this historically. In addition, Britain had some kind of project to build the Intermarium, from the Black Sea to the Baltic, it was exactly about Poland+Baltic states.
But I do not expect “real Europeans” like Germany or France to enter the war.
but it would be crazy. (like stuff from a novel.)
And as far as I understood Alastair Crooke on Judging Freedom a few months back, he claimed so far these were ideas of an elite Polish minority only (the people would not want that.)
On the other hand, Crooke´s analysis of German party politics is superficial and thus fails to explain certain phenomena.
So I take his verdict with a grain of skepticism. (After all we had no popular uprising due to high energy prices either.)
But if fascism in aesthetic terms means fiction taking over and treating people regardless of what it means for their material realities (what futurists liked to call the kinetics of a utopian model) than this is indeed a fascist concept.
And as you say it would be the re-introduction of an idea from the past, when the prevailing political model was feudalism and the Catholic Church was supreme and people were executed by throwing them to a pack of hungry dogs in public.
So yeah, lets just go back to that. (Poles seem to forget that their oh-so-beloved nation was a construct of the bellicose Polish aristocracy. Just like everywhere else.)
As Clare Daly said recently, “my hopes lie with African nations and the Global South”. I totally agree. At least until Europe´s wealth is used up. Then they might get to their senses.
“There was some kind of Polish-Lithuanian state in history…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth
“Sigismund III then initiated a policy of expansionism, and invaded Russia in 1609 when that country was plagued by a civil war known as the Time of Troubles. In July 1610, the outnumbered Polish force comprising winged hussars defeated the Russians at the Battle of Klushino, which enabled the Poles to take and occupy Moscow for the next two years. The disgraced Vasili IV of Russia was transported in a cage to Warsaw where he paid a tribute to Sigismund; Vasili was later murdered in captivity”.
This map from Wikipedia shows the full extent of the PLC in 1619:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1619.PNG/600px-Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1619.PNG
Tom
it even has a cool acronym, PLC! (aka the “1619 project” ha-ha)
thats like an awesome band.
Man, now I really start liking that idea.
May be we should rekindle with Bismarck´s strategy for a greater Germany.
Lets create a German-Danish-Austrian-French Commonwealth. GDAF, that sounds almost a cool as GCHQ.
Tom Welsh
thanks. I believe it was known here as ‘Rzeczpospolita’, no? Seems like it’s the same. I know they had one progressive sort of state governing – their aristocracy elected the monarch. The very same Ivan ‘the Terrible’ Russian Tsar stood as a candidate for monarchy there, Ivan’s mother was of Lithuanian origin.
Strange how it all changes with times, that today we are ‘non-friendly countries’ as our ministers say.
—
sorry, AG, no great acronyms of Rzeczpospolita 🙂 Pschche?
right
from now on I shall call you “Rzeczpospolita” aka the “unpronouncable”
p.s. what on Middle-Earth are you doing with that Galadriel character???
or is that you, Cate?
When I was young, I saw a rather good movie – well, a Hollywood movie, what can I say – “Taras Bulba” with Yul Brynner and Tony Curtis. It was a dramatisation of part of Gogol’s novel.
At the time I was greatly struck by the bravery and daring of the Cossacks fighting for their freedom, and the obnoxious arrogance of the Polish noblemen who at that time ruled what is now Ukraine.
AG, let’s try this avatar 🙂
Actually, I wouldn’t dismiss the Intermarium idea. After all, there was no Israel just recently, et voila,
shit happensan idea from the past came true.“Taras Bulba” directed by Bristol born T.L. Thompson, better known however for “The Guns of Navarone” and the original “Cape Fear” (so he worked with Gregory Peck).
A Thompson quote allegedly “I am a pacifist. If there was another war, I don’t think I would go to it.” He served in the RAF during the War.
even though the trailer looks questionable I will look into the Polish hating picture for sure 😉
re: Tony Curtis
on set of “Some Like It Hot” Curtis was bitching about how fat Monroe´s butt was. The assistant told Monroe, Monroe responded “May be Tony is right. But he sure has not my tits.”
sry Tatyana this won´t help.
From now on I shall call you “Cate”.
So you better work on your Aussie accent
AG, please don’t. This could spoil me a plot I’m thinking of 🙂 i expect some people may ask me how I got my ‘verified’ mark, and I’m going to tell them only after they subscribe to Mr.Murray’s blog 🙂
Really, PayPal was the only available, now it’s gone, and I feel I should help this site in some way.
admittedly a bit far-fetched but via Ezra Pound and Lithuania, “Wasteland” came to my mind, here the first part (Eliot, a staunch right-wing fits the topic)
“April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.
Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee
With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade,
And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten,
And drank coffee, and talked for an hour.
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm’ aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
And when we were children, staying at the archduke’s,
My cousin’s, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went.
In the mountains, there you feel free.
I read, much of the night, and go south”
The German phrase says “am no Russian female but from Lithuania, pure German”
Starnbergersee in Bavaria near the Alps is still among the wealthiest regions in Germany. As real as the weather issue, people there die, because bad weather over the lake comes out of nothing and traps people swimming, swallowing up all the air above the lake surface. I forgot the reason, special to that location.
Marie, the sled, the archduke, that´s all romanticizing the pre-WWI imperial era of course.
But a Communist like Italian count Luchino Visconti too would pay homage to the very same set of symbols in his “left” films, like his biopic about Bavarian King “Ludwig II.”, the patron of composer Richard Wagner (and builder of the Bavarian fairy-tale castles).
p.s. Mentioning it merely since Visconti´s former star and I assume young lover actor Helmut Berger, playing the King in his most memorable role, died recently.
As did US actor Alan Arkin yesterday, btw (whose parent were Communists)
So much for stream-of-consciousness for today.
AG, from Tom’s hyperlink and your poems, I now have a brain splinter – the word Courland (Kurland?). Do you have such a toponym in Germany? From all my memory, I can only pull out the phrase “Courland sausage” and this is not about food, but an offensive name that a German princess gave to other German princess in their fight for the throne of Russia.
no info sry.
in fact I would not´ve been aware of Kurland. (I am very bad with that part of Europe)
I only know the term “Kurische Nehrung”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonian_Spit
which is a peninsula in the Kurland area, and is the title of a documentary from 2001 by German director Volker Koepp who came from the GDR and therefore “Kuhrische Nehrung”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4oNPM9S7hQ
which is a film about the landscape there and its people, looks like an East European art film documentary from the 1980s.
Koepp would know about your princess I guess. (He has worked a lot in that part of the Baltics.)
As to the sausage I can´t find a particular eponymous sausage or story but they do have a certain type of blood sausage there, it seems.
May be they are related (the sausage and the princess).
AG
“p.s. since it is mentioned often – what I do not understand, why is Europe suffering when spending money on arms whereas RU is allegedly not doing the same thing AND losing people”
My explanation is :
Russia makes most of its weapons from materials made and mined by itself.
Most European weapons are USA-made. When we buy F-35, USA earns. When RF buys SU-35, money stays in the economy (circulates). When Germany makes Leopard it has to import energy Aluminium Steel etc. When RF makes T-80 most of it is home-made (sourced).
I would go so far to say that so called borrowing by Russia to make some weapons is good for the economy. RF debt to GDP is only 20%, while the West debt/GDP is about 100%.
Injecting Billions of Rubles into economy will/might help grow a GDP. RF “borrows” from Central Bank of RF in Rubles and pays for weapons energy etc. in Rubles.
ok thx, gotta think about it, makes sense
What annoys me perhaps the most with this war is how extremely dupable westerners are
German Gay Pride event celebrates Nazi collaborator (VIDEO)
One artist performed a song praising Ukrainian ultranationalist Stepan Bandera as the crowd cheered and sang along
https://swentr.site/news/578929-germany-lgbtq-pride-bandera/
If one can cheer for Bandera, why not take the next step and cheer for Hitler? What is the difference, both were nazis fighting the evil russians.
Some people have really lost it.
“If one can cheer for Bandera, why not take the next step and cheer for Hitler?”
There is a huge and unbridgeable chasm between the two. Both, of course, were hard-core Nazis who wanted to exterminate Jews and “subhumans”.
However Hitler is a designated enemy of the USA, and Bandera is a designated hero-figure of the USA.
Don’t strain your brain trying to discern any factual difference in the real world. There is none, unless you are still so primitive and unenlightened as to be a member of the reality-based community. The essence of fascism – and I am referring to the USA, not Germany or Ukraine – is that you must believe what the Fuehrer tells you, unquestioningly and absolutely.
See, for example, C. J. Hopkins https://consentfactory.org/ passim.
All together now: “Hitler bad, Bandera good! Hitler bad, Bandera good!”
The Lithuanians were even more murderous than the German and they honour their SS regiments even more than Ukraine does.
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1669729870283440128?s=20
Could well be why Vilnius was selected to host the NATO summit in a couple of weeks.
Tom, thank you HUGELY for sharing the link! How it come that I never knew this author? Absolutely my sort of a writer, I fell in love 🙂
He describes exactly what I feel and exatly in the manner I appreciate.
“War on Reality. Everybody and their brother is trying to ram their “reality” down everyone’s throat. You got the “Viruses Do Not Exist” people. You got the “There Are No Neo-Nazis in Ukraine” people. The “Putin Is Our Savior” people. The Vote Blue Cult. The Multipolar people. The Transgendered People’s Army. The Doomsday Clock Hucksters. The Folks Who Still Listen to NPR. The Insurrection Truthers. The Insurrection Deniers. The 9/11 Truthers. The Moon-Landing Truthers. The Cult of Trump. The Church of Russiagate. The Rothschild Obsessives. The Anti-Racism Racists. The Anti-Anti-Semitism Anti-Semites. The Mass Formation Movement. The Cult of Marx. The Cult of Capital. The Climate Change Fanatics. The Musk Cult. The list goes on and on.”
I especially like The Anti-Racism Racists definition, and it took me to read twice before I understood The Anti-Anti-Semitism Anti-Semites.
I think I’ve found a great read for the weekend! Once again, my deepest gratitude, Tom.
“The “Putin Is Our Savior” people.”
Yes, I have that, because He, Vladimir Vladimirovich, after saving the world from Wagner, will build the technoeconomics of the future and save us from the dirty clutches of globalist technocrats!
Part of Putin’s statement on SPIEF-2023.
http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71445
Plenary session of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum
Vladimir Putin took part in the plenary session of the XXVI St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.
June 16, 2023, 17:50, St. Petersburg
The moderator of the discussion is political scientist, historian, presenter of Channel One Dmitry Simes.
“Vladimir Putin:
[…]
The introduction of the principles of careful, efficient production should gain momentum, not only in the basic sectors of the economy, but also in other sectors, in the social sphere. Here it is necessary to fully utilize the resource of the Federal Competence Center and expand its mandate.
Another key area of the supply economy concerns active automation and the development of artificial intelligence technologies.
In Russia, due to objective demographic processes, the supply on the labor market will be limited. In these conditions, it is extremely important for us to increase the pace of automation of mining, manufacturing, agriculture, transport and logistics, trade and many other areas.
Russia has not only huge potential here, but also effective solutions of its own. Just the other day, as part of our forum, the launch of KAMAZ unmanned trucks on the Neva federal highway took place. Unmanned Yandex taxis are already operating on the streets of Moscow. These are good, but so far isolated examples, and we need the mass introduction of such technologies.
Let me remind you that last November we discussed measures to stimulate the introduction and production of industrial robots in Russia. We agreed that the Government will approve the relevant federal draft by July 1. I ask you to strictly maintain this deadline: delay here is absolutely critical for our economy.
The next important question is what is called “data–based management”. This approach should be applied almost everywhere in the transport and communications system, medicine, education, government agencies, and so on.
We need to actively implement and use these developments, support the preparation of domestic software in the field of big data, launch projects in the field of artificial intelligence and, of course, strengthen information security, monitor data turnover so that they do not harm national security and the interests of our citizens. My colleagues and I have already agreed on concrete actions in this regard.
Unfortunately, there is also a lag here – you need to catch up with it and strictly adhere to the established plans in the future. We will hear the Government’s report on this direction in the near future.
I would like to add that we regularly review the implementation of new technological solutions in the Russian economy and hold an annual conference dedicated to artificial intelligence. And starting this year, we are launching a new special platform – the Forum of Future Technologies, where advanced areas of technological development will be discussed on an annual basis.
[…]
I repeat: we need to cover more and more industries and institutions, forming the techno–economy of the future – an economy with institutions operating on a qualitatively new technological basis.
The platform principle of data-based management is being actively implemented in the daily activities of the Russian Government and colleagues in the regions. In many areas of such work on the use of new principles of the digital state, we are among the undisputed world leaders, and this is a fact. We need to strengthen these positions and move on.
…
D. Simes: Mr President, thank you very much for this impressive speech.[…] All this, of course, is very important, positive, and when I said “amazing” – amazing, Vladimir Vladimirovich, because all this is happening in the context of international tension, the conflict around Ukraine and the ongoing hostilities there. …”
The author gave funny definitions of petty cults, I mean, Putin, Rothschild, Trump and Musk will die sooner or later, and the debate will fade away as quickly as Covid ceased to be a deadly plague.
What I would like to see is CJ Hopkins’ witty definition of “we built a garden, and the whole world around is a jungle that wants to invade the garden.” In my opinion, this is one of the most long-lived and harmful cults. The cult of superiority. Followers of this cult consider themselves empowered to approve or disapprove of other cults 🙂
I’m glad you like Hopkins, Tatyana. I simply *adore* anyone who adores C.J. Hopkins!
You may think it worth while reading his novel “Zone 23”. Here is a short review I wrote a couple of years ago.
‘After “Zone 23” had been sitting on my bookshelf for over a year, because I felt I ought to read it but expected that a political satirist’s novel would be flat-footed, artificial and generally hard work, I pulled it down and was soon engrossed. I finished it yesterday and I’m still feeling slightly stunned. It’s an absolute classic, which belongs with “Catch-22”, “Stranger In A Strange Land”, “Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?” and any of the great dystopian SF.
‘The style is exactly appropriate to the subject, and Taylor’s idiom appeals to me although I am usually a grammar Nazi. For some reason, especially what I call “the which clause”. He actually has a lot in common with Achilles. Numerous individuals of contrasting abundance and destinies appear, gradually but inevitably coming together under the influence of some invisible force. The denouement fits perfectly the requirements of classical tragedy.
‘I kept catching whiffs of familiar books and ideas – Heinlein’s Coventry, PKD’s peculiar slanted view of life, “Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up To Me”, a touch of Len Deighton… even some of Alastair Reynolds’ hard SF.
‘Finally, I’m left with two main reactions. One, a paradoxical affection for the whole complex structure of people and places. Two, a convulsive, purely emotional “NOOOOOOO…!”‘
Thanks for the recommendation, Tom. I was thinking of getting it, because, well, my region is #23 and when I saw Zone23 advertised at the Consentfactory page, I thought “it’s a sign!” 🙂
I don’t really believe in mysticism, but sometimes I pretend to believe in order to brighten up the boring, logical, analytically precise regularity of my life with strict time management. I mean, I’m trying to grow a business from my hobby, it really needs a lot of analytics. But since it’s art related, I need a way to switch to the other hemisphere of the brain. So I pick up a coin found in the street, or water the money tree on my windowsill, and pretend that’s what got me orders today 🙂
It remains to find a way to get it from Amazon. My friend from the US is visiting in the next few days, I think we’ll work it out.
Tom, do you know how CJ Hopkins got my heart? I visited what they have for the Our Team page on the Consentfactory and read: Chief Editor: Peter Verkhovensky; and then Clients List page saying: You didn’t really think we were going to disclose the names of our clients, did you?
Well, you get me now, Mr.Hopkins 🙂
I forgot about him?.
Txs
Tom Tatyana (T&T)
I doubt its new to you guys, but here is an interview Matt Taibbi did with Hopkins 2 weeks ago.
https://www.racket.news/p/first-roger-waters-now-this-germany
Have you seen the Snatch film, AG? The episode about London?
Like: – London? – yes, London, fish, chips, cup of tee, bad food, worse weather, Mary f*** Poppins
To remember people I give them names. Aaron ‘ballet dancer posture’ Mate. Alexander ‘red maroon button’ Mercouris. Gonzalo ‘pain in Julia Davis’ ass’ Lira.
For me Matt is Matt ‘highly sarcastic facial expression’ Taibbi.
yeah know what ya mean.
A bit of a problem with Matt: he is overcomplicating matters when explaining things in writing and speaking. So a more factual guy like Chris Hedges is a good co with him to make things clearer. Matt – matter – matterest.
hohoho.
But I really hope he will be left alone by those assholes. We need his work.
He really belongs to the good guys and has accomplished some important research and analysis.
And I personally like complicated more than oversimplifying.
btw thats the same poblem with Snatch-former-Madonna-video-man/lover-Guy Ritchie – for me he is complicating things as a storyteller without making them complex.
But thats a discussion not for here.
(re: poems and politics, British director Sam Mendes appears to like Lord Tennyson´s poetry. After quoting him in “James Bond Skyfall” he does so again in his latest drama, “Empire of Light”, taking place in a cinema in Margate in 1980 overshadowed by increasingly right-wing attitudes in the population:
“Ring out, wild bells, to the wild sky,
The flying cloud, the frosty light:
The year is dying in the night;
Ring out, wild bells, and let him die.”
According to Wiki, may be not by accident, Eliot seems to have liked Tennyson whereas the left W.H. Auden had to say about Tennyson:
he was the “stupidest” of all the English poets, adding that: “There was little about melancholia he didn’t know; there was little else that he did.”)
Actually I hadn’t seen it, AG. So thanks! We must keep spreading the word about the good guys – the “few” who keep the flame burning.
And what better place to do so than in Mr Murray’s blog, since he too is one of them?
Call me naive but she has a picture and links to her business and has been here since Skripals. She even said that she is from Krasnodar I believe. She did comment on different topics apart from SNP intrigues ?
Pears Morgaine
look what is today in our news
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/30/ukraine-promises-inquiry-banned-landmine-use
“Human Rights Watch reported on January 31 numerous cases in which Ukrainian forces fired rockets carrying thousands of PFM-1 antipersonnel mines, also called “petal” or “butterfly” mines, into Russia-occupied areas in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Izium between April and September 2022.
Human Rights Watch verified 11 civilian casualties from the mines, including one death and multiple amputations of lower legs, based on interviews with victims and their family members. In a statement issued the day the report was released, the Ukrainian government committed to “duly study” the report.”
You said that Ukraine signed and ratified the Ottawa Treaty, and you said Ukraine withdrew these mines and in the process of destroying their stock.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/06/what-just-happened-in-russia/comment-page-3/#comment-1040580
Seems like HRW confirms that Ukraine is not following the Treaty they’ve signed and ratified, also the method of destroying their stock is somewhat … err… Do you have a proper word for it?
You missed a bit:-
” Since the start of its full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russian forces have used at least 13 types of antipersonnel mines in multiple areas across Ukraine, killing and injuring civilians. Human Rights Watch has published four reports documenting Russian forces’ use of antipersonnel landmines in Ukraine since 2022. Russia, which has not joined the Mine Ban Treaty, violates international humanitarian law when using antipersonnel mines because they are inherently indiscriminate weapons. ”
At least having signed the treaty there’s some come back against Ukraine if the reports turn out to be correct.
Pears, you may have missed the point of the entire point of the report. There’s a link there, didn’t you notice?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/31/ukraine-banned-landmines-harm-civilians
In January, Human Rights reported:
“Ukraine should investigate its military’s apparent use of thousands of rocket-fired antipersonnel landmines in and around the eastern city of Izium when Russian forces occupied the area”
Apparently Ukraine promised to investigate, because yesterday’s report says:
“The Ukrainian government should act on its expressed commitment not to use banned antipersonnel landmines, investigate its military’s use of these weapons, and hold those responsible to account”
—
Honestly, I see it as a game: Ukraine promises to promise, and HRW reports to report. Treaties, they are everywhere, so promising and reporting is important. What is unimportant is keeping to the treaties, like it was with the Minsk Agreements.
I am reminded of the highway of death as the Iraq army were slaughtered as they retreated from Kuwait.
So yes obviously the mercenaries could travel hundreds of miles down the M4 (not the one in the UK) without them being taken out from the air.
Rishi Sunak recently said the Russian action in Ukraine was unprovoked.
He was not challenged this is the mainstream narrative.
Despite heavy shelling into the west of Ukraine from the east of Ukraine in the two weeks before and these regions asking for Russia’s help.
“Unprovoked” is that what it will say in the history books.
Indeed, “Unprovoked” and “full-scale invasion” is the go-to catch phrases from the west. Weirdly, the same phrases are repeated throughout europe, in respective language, like some coordinated/psy-ops. Regardless how one feel about the invasion, it is of course not “unprovoked” nor a “full scale” invasion.
Another problem is how much western military/intelligence influence public opinion. Actors that should not have any political say in western nations are lurking in the background pulling the strings..
Defense Contractor Funded Think Tanks Dominate Ukraine Debate
https://quincyinst.org/report/defense-contractor-funded-think-tanks-dominate-ukraine-debate/
what makes matters worse in Germany, and I assume that goes for most of Europe: in the US, like the Quincy study shows it is the players you would expect normally, and it has the typical American conspirational notion to it. So you could argue there is a threshold between the average American and the elite American in which latter is pulling the info strings.
Business as usual.
In Europe however the MIC is by far not as strong. So if the same propaganda is being pulled off with even more success than in the US (I find almost all my info on US sites, the critical spaces are much smaller in Europe) it would mean that belief in the contents of propaganda is genuine among people here. You do not need the veil created by all-powerful influential shady corporations to manipulate the masses like in the states.
Here the “masses” or those much closer to them (media and academia) do it by themselves.
So it is only consequential if questioning the origin of information about the war is non-existent in European media.
Whatever comes out, as long as it is correctly labeled they buy it.
Never did we have a war where so little was done to verify or falsify information provided.
Media take everything at face value.
Because it is considered a just war.
Therefore scrutiny is not necessary.
So it is rather wise when Italian essayist Marco D´Eramo on New Left Review recently wrote a text about crusades.
While in the US this war is more or less business as usual (within certain limits) it is not in Europe.
Here we have a just war. Pretty much the first time in this totalitarian manne.
(with Serbia vs. Kosovo you had at least a couple of academics and “intellectuals” and Austrians who would disagree and question things.)
p.s. but even in this mess you find a certain unease about the crusade because whenever a US medium of fame comes out with a critique of the crusade for a moment the foundation in Europe starts shaking.
So they do follow an imperial whistle. Which means they are well aware of the phony character of their fabricated cause.
But these concussions last for only a few days.
(just think how many scandals at the information front we had to witness and how they have all been forgotten.)
“Aging Iraq Invaders Keep Accidentally Saying ‘Iraq’ Instead Of ‘Ukraine’”
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2023/06/29/aging-iraq-invaders-keep-accidentally-saying-iraq-instead-of-ukraine/
‘President Biden accidentally referred to Putin’s war in “Iraq” when answering questions from the press, a year after former president George W Bush made the same gaffe. Both men played crucial roles in the push to invade Iraq.
‘Asked on Wednesday whether the short-lived Prigozhin rebellion was a sign that Putin was weakening, Biden replied, “It’s hard to tell really. But he’s clearly losing the war in Iraq”…
…’In May of last year during a speech in Dallas, George W Bush made a similar Freudian confession, saying, “The result is an absence of checks and balances in Russia, and the decision of one man to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq. I mean, of Ukraine.”’
Brian, I am still puzzled by the real motives for all this shameless wholesale lying.
Sure, they are successfully deceiving most of the civilians in the USA, UK, Europe, etc. (the “golden billion”).
But what does that accomplish? Western civilians have absolutely no power or even influence! (As a result of decades of careful work by their own governments). So it doesn’t matter in the least what they believe, think, or want.
And the rest of the world – the other 7 billion – are not deceived at all. People in Russia, China, India, Indonesia, the other -stans, Mongolia, the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America get their news from more honest sources.
This is the transcript of a nice speech Noam Chomsky gave 2013 in the German city of Bonn (birthplace of Beethoven, 1770).
Its long and touches on all sorts of aspects of democracy. Now and 300 years ago.
Its Snowden, Manning, Yemen War, the Federalist Papers and James Madison and the state of democracy in the US 10 years ago. Even England in the 1640s.
It was part of a Deutsche Welle forum.
I wonder if Deutsche Welle, which is state broadcasting, would feature NC today as well.
May be. I dont know.
“A Roadmap to a Just World — People Reanimating Democracy
Noam Chomsky
DW Global Media Forum, Bonn, Germany, June 17, 2013”
https://chomsky.info/20130617/
Thanks Tatyana for your comments. I’m originally from Hungary, but have been living in Australia for the last 35 years (actually we’re planning to move back). One reason Hungary is not supporting Ukraine is because the Hungarian TV HAS shown images of Nazi marches in Ukraine, it REPORTED the killing of 100s of ethic Hungarians by Ukrainian thugs each year.
BTW Ukraine had never had a good reputation in Hungary, as in the mid 90s, the Ukrainian Mafia were very active in Hungary. Everything you see about ‘evil Russians’ in Hollywood propaganda movies, were what actually the Ukrainians were doing in Hungary.
Hope Russia wins. It cannot lose the war.
Even if any of the above is true, and I’ve not ben able to verify it, do you really think anybody would be better off under Russian control again?
https://origins.osu.edu/milestones/october-2016-remembering-56-hungarian-revolution-sixty?language_content_entity=en
Maybe you need to ask your dad/grandad what they think.
‘ acTVism Munich ‘ channel on YouTube, titled ‘ What the WikiLeaks reveals about the lead-up to the Ukraine war ‘. If someone could post the link please.
—
[ Mod: Video here – YouTube, 24m 34s ]
Thanks. As Brian Berletic of The New Atlas uses western sources to debunk western propoganda, the above Wikileaks ‘secret’ communications by european countries show how they know the truth yet still follow US plans. The piece ends with Julian reading out Aristotle…and the Book of Proverbs..and the book of Mathew…
might fit the conversation here at the moment:
Max Blumenthal´s 14 min. speech at the UN-SC about Grayzone´s audit of US arms expenditure for Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddc1ix_9MII
@Tatyana, I need you to come up with a nice characterisation of Max Blumenthal, since he belongs to the Matt/Aaron lot
Sorry, AG, it’s the first time ever that I see Mr. Blumenthal, so my impression is pretty silly.
The emotional imprint is the same as of Damian Lewis in the Homeland. Then my thoughts wandered towards the shade of his shirt, which I found too cold and saturated, and thought that if Mrs.Blumenthal paid attention, then I could play Kassandra and call him a To-Be-Senator-Blumenthal. Then he mentioned that there exists some kind of Blumenthal already, no relation, at this moment I exclaimed “This is a sign!” 🙂
And then I thought that perhaps Lucifer from Supernatural, played by Mark Pelegrino. That story of Lucifer is special.
All in all, Mr. Blumenthal does not yet have a witty name, but he is definitely pissed off, and angry, and most probably feels betrayed. Deceived Patriot, maybe. Or, Careless Father’s Son. The most close definitions so far, sorry.
I would go with Careless Father’s Son, if we manage to bring to it a humoristic twist, like a father who is bullying young Max into joining the high school football team despite Max wearing glasses, hating football and all that – perhaps red haired Max in Woody Allen fashion – may be you have seen “Love And Death” from 1975, that kind of humor, which, yes, is a bit out-dated by now. But that´s where I see Max “Careless Father’s Son” Blumenthal
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073312/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_2_nm_0_q_die%2520letzte%2520nacht%2520des%2520Bori%2520Grushenko%252B
(I believe the film itself was less goofy than the trailer, but its long ago for me)
p.s. as for today this film is full of red flags thematically
Translated a couple of news from Russia
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/forums/topic/on-ukraines-plans-in-2022/#post-91632
Too much talks about Zaporozhue nuclear plant for the last two weeks, and today’s are the worst.
Listen to Andrey Martyanov talking to the Duran finished just a few minutes ago. He doesn´t see much danger.
I think it’s worth the listening time. And might calm you down:
100 minutes
https://theduran.com/critical-week-before-nato-summit-live-w-andrei-martyanov/
He talks about Wagner, repeating the things he already said in the past, much about the evolution of the RU Armed Forces in the past 18 months and how things geopolitically might play out as a consequence of the war.
Maybe I am exaggerating but for the moment, highly recommended. Don’t let yourself get irritated by his initial goofiness as I did when I first saw him. Furthermore I disregarded Martyanov as I heard too much of his superficial social science philosophy. But after all he is military. So that’s what he knows.
but thx for the translations.
oh, I know this person, I watched a couple of episodes and decided not to continue. While I agree with your assessment too, mine was a little less polite – a bulldog, a barking bulldog. Perhaps cognac and cigars gave me the idea that he was playing the reincarnation of Churchill?
But if you say, then I’ll give it another chance.
err.. I mean cognac and cigars in the intro picture of Andrey’s videos 🙂 I should build phrases more carefully, or people may understand in wrong way 🙂
I did understand it in a wrong way ?.
It wasn’t easy to imagine you with a cigar and cognac.
Pigeon English
the funniest thing is – I checked the picture, and there are ice cubes in the glass. It’s probably not even cognac, but whiskey.
Indeed.
Very worrying developments. And there are certainly people reckless enough in the West to authorise such insanity.
Reports seem to indicate Ukraine’s much vaunted counter-offensive has been little short of an unmitigated disaster. Russia showing stubborn resistance, leveraging their air supremacy and strong defensive lines. Logically, a Russian attack on Zaporizhzhia NPP would make no sense whatsoever at this point. However, it could serve to bring NATO into the conflict. Who would gain from it most? It’s a fair question.
Also concerning, is the question as to what William Burns, the CIA Director, had to travel to Kyiv to convey in person (no records), Presidential approval? For some crazy ass plan to strike Zaporizhzhia NPP – a last ddesperate roll of the dice?
Hope I’m wrong.
Looks like it’s morning July 5 and I’m alive 🙂
RIA, they continue scaring us, reporting on Ukrainian Ministry of Health with their yesterday’s publication of the recommendations in case of nuclear contamination.
https://ria.ru/20230704/zaes-1882261993.html
There also was a report about 4 or 3 days ago:
“A special aircraft WC-135R Constant Phoenix of the US Air Force deployed to the Chania airbase in Crete. This is reported by the telegram channel ‘Military Observer’.
It is from this base that RQ-4B Global Hawk reconnaissance UAVs and RC-135W Rivet Joint aircraft fly to the Black Sea region.
WC-135R is designed to collect information about radioactive radiation and control nuclear tests. In this regard, the authors of the ‘Military Observer’ characterize him as a ‘nuclear sniffer’.
The rarest visit of a special board may be connected with the preparation of a nuclear catastrophe by Kiev at the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant.”
https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2023/07/01/specialnyy-yadernyy-nyuhach-armii-ssha-pribyl-v-evropu-vsyo-radi-zaporozhskoy-aes
the plane seems to pop up at all sorts of places over the course of a year, I read.
Last year a Boeing coordinating nuclear missile attacks was spotted on a German air-base. But so it was in several other places.
Diminishing European manufacturing and economic power is one thing.
Starting a major war is something different.
As to what makes sense to those dicks and cunts in D.C.
After all the senators are relying on their constituencies and sponsors. And those need orders for arms production.
Had the US had interest in wiping out Russia and China they could have well done so untill the mid 60s without any trouble.
The biggest problem, may be, is a misunderstanding.
At least people formerly on the inside of these institutions say so.
Like the stuff that happened over the Black Sea with a British AWAC almost shot down.
But THATs something you did not hear in the news.
And the more powerful the Russian Army will get, the more unlikely will the Poles do something stupid unless communicated to the Russians, I assume.
Maybe the Russians could invite UN inspectors to the plant to confirm no explosives have been placed and prove the Ukrainians are lying. Would be easy.
IAEA will check, the roofs of unit #3 and #4 in question, access requested. Their head Grossi is too busy at the moment touring Japan and convincing people that dumping water from Fukushima into the ocean is not dangerous.
Can someone please check this on SkyNews? I cannot see the video, text says ‘video unavailable try again later’
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-russia-war-latest-counteroffensive-putin-prigozhin-wagner-live-updates-blog-12541713
The entry says:
Ukraine war latest: Russia dismisses Ukraine’s nuclear claims as ‘nonsense’; drone footage shows moment of Ukrainian strike
Rhetoric around a potential attack at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant has ramped up, with President Zelenskyy accusing Russia of possibly planting explosives on the roof.
Wednesday 5 July 2023 19:22, UK
maybe video is restricted for my country only, and someone may see it?
sky site info in print see below: (Sky TV News headlines right now are on “75 years of NHS”. Not ZPPN)
p.s. unfortunately since Twitter has closed public access no way for me to see Pavel Podvig´s Twitter on ZPPN, which was always rather helpful, very factual. But this does remind me of the tactics of constant crisis as a narrative held alive for Western public´s entertainment where true positive news from the front are simply lacking. It´s diversion from the sad realities of the real war, which sees AFU loosing.
Sky:
“(…)
23:46
Ukraine war latest: Satellite images show situation at nuclear plant – as Russia dismisses Ukraine’s claims of explosives on roofs as ‘nonsense’
Rhetoric around a potential attack at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant has ramped up, with Volodymyr Zelenskyy accusing Russia of possibly planting explosives on the roof.
Key points
Ukrainians fear false flag attack on nuclear plant | Dominic Waghorn analysis View post
Why would Russia put ‘explosives’ on plant’s roofs? | Michael Clarke analysis View post
Reports of explosives on roofs are ‘nonsense’, Kremlin says View post
| Satellite images don’t show big explosives View post
Watch: Drone footage of Ukrainian strike in occupied city View post
Ukraine’s counteroffensive aims to drain Russian army, not take territory View post
Stories of hope: A marriage, amputee wins gold and schools rebuilt View post
Your questions answered: Why does Kyiv’s counteroffensive feel underwhelming? View post
Live reporting by Brad Young and (earlier) Ollie Cooper
22:55
White House monitoring conditions at nuclear plant
The White House is continuing to monitor conditions at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.
Russia and Ukraine have accused each other of plotting to stage an attack on the facility.
The UN nuclear watchdog has said its experts based at Zaporizhzhia have yet to observe any indications of mines or explosives at the plant, but need more access.
(…)”
Alexander Mercouris on the ZPPN issue here:
the first 10 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdhNx0_MAxA
he suggests that ZPPN is one of the latest constructions of its kind and extremely well protected. Very different to Tchernobyl which is like the historic red flag in Western Europe.
He sums up many rumours for some incident yesterday which did not materialize. In fact its all only rumours.
The kind of attack described is some missile aimed at the top of the building which however would most likely not make real damage.
I would like to add that NATO going to war, which by the hawks is the main take-away in this entire game, is no matter taken lightly by any government in Europe.
Neil
IAEA have already denied Ukraine’s obvious lies about the NPP,
IAEA saw no evidence Moscow planning attack on Zaporizhia
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/iaea-saw-no-evidence-moscow-202406475.html
IAEA issues results of probe into Kiev’s claim mines were laid at nuclear plant
The UN agency’s experts have found no mines at Zaporozhye power plant as situation there remains ‘tense’
https://swentr.site/russia/579258-iaea-inspection-zaporozhye-nuclear-mining/
Once again Ukraine/west try to accuse Russia of attacking themselves…
Thanks, Jack
there’is one undoubtedly good thing in such fakes – every new day, waking up alive, I feel happy. nothing is better than starting a new day on a positive note.
Jack, I went to the IAEA website itself and found a rather different picture…
“We take all such reports very seriously and I have instructed our experts at the site to look into this matter and request the access they need for doing their job. Until now they have not observed any mines or other explosives. Further access will still be needed.”
If the IAEA issue a statement later that they’ve been granted access to search the whole site unimpeded and found nothing, then I’ll accept that either the Ukrainians were lying/mistaken or the Russians, having been rumbled, quickly removed the explosives.
It’s called logic. You might want to try it some day.
Or if you just prefer to believe everything that agrees with your pro-Russian bias and dismiss as lies any report that clashes with it, then carry on as you were.
so, nothing is for sure yet? IAEA haven’t checked yet? We may still wake up facing this radioactive cloud floating our way?
Oh, I hope IAEA check not only ZNPP, but also 3 other NPPs in Ukraine: Khmelnitska, Rovenska and South-Ukrainian. And nuclear institute in Kharkiv too. And Chernobyl site.
Neil
What? You began by asking for IAEA to visit the site, I provided information that they have systematically visited the site, obviously you did not know this:
Try read this (again?):
The UN agency’s experts have found no charges at the Zaporozhye power plant
https://swentr.site/russia/579258-iaea-inspection-zaporozhye-nuclear-mining/
Not even the US gov/intelligence spread the bs Ukraine is spreading now. Go figure..
some kind of madness. now they refer to some pictures of Planets Labs.
A Russian source says that SkyNews on July 5 referred to Planet Labs and said that there are no objects on the roofs of the ZNPP.
https://tass.com/military-operation-in-ukraine/1643059
A Ukrainian source, citing Radio Liberty, claims that Planet Labs on July 5 filmed some objects on the roof of the ZNPP.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/6/7410046/
Planet Labs themselves don’t have any press releases on their website about this.
Well, I looked at today’s wind map, and calmed down a bit. If today, the cloud will float away from me.
as it is here that we discuss it, I’ll leave it here too, for those interested in the development.
There is a man Evgeny Balitsky in Zaporozhye, I don’t understand the positions, they write “temporarily acting as head of the region.” He said today that additional measures have been taken, the waste storage has been filled with an additional layer of concrete and an additional wall has been installed, on which the IAEA has put its seals.
I see RIA may be banned in your countries, sorry. I think I should give the link anyway, to prove my words
https://ria.ru/20230706/zaes-1882663636.html
Jack, Tatyana, if you have an argument, I’m happy to hear it.
Goose
I’m not sure waht is going on here?
If the Russians blow up the nuclear plant the they had better hope that the wind is blowing in the right direction.
Otherwise fellow Russians will not be best pleased.
It is possible that they may blow up the sets of dynamos ( that’s an old word ) and leave it at that.
I don’t know if the Ukranians are that desperate that they would attack the plant – I certainly hope not.
There is talk of a ‘ Frozen war ‘ which suggests that an agreement will be made with Russia in order for the West to supply the weaponry the Ukranians require to allegedly win the war.
In my view the war is not winnable and for all the criticism of the Republican Patriot Ritter I agree that throwing young conscripts at the Russian forces is ” cruel ”
It is, but the problem is ( and always was ) is that this is not a Ukranian war – it is a US let’s nobble Russia war and the poor Ukranian people are caught in the middle of all this.
The western media continue to cheer the madness on and it is an undefying sight from the Liberals and shows that they will go along with anything as long as they can keep their salaries and pensions.
I would rather argue with the right than the Liberals.
At least with the right you know where you stand.
The Liberals pretend to care but in reality they don’t.
See Starmer/Blair and co for proof.
Anyone hear Security State stooge Luke Harding on PM about an hour ago?
He mentioned off-hand that the Russians had blown up the dam a few weeks ago, and… here he was interrupted.
How do we know it was the Russians? The presenter asked.
LH: “Well, everyone except the Russians say that they did it.”
So that’s good enough proof for The Guardian’s top man these days. The Americans said it, its client states parrot the accusation, and we don’t care about any other countries – so that makes it ‘everyone’. And that assertion is good enough. Oh – and one other thing, a car which might be carrying explosives was seen near the dam. What more proof could anyone want?
Incidentally, a World at One presenter excitedly asked whether Russian generals would be put on trial in the Hague over the dam, on the day it happened. This presumes that Russia will be entirely overcome, their total surrender, and that Russia will meekly hand over whoever is asked for. Russia, now – not some tiny, defenceless country (who – let’s face it – are the only candidates to appear in the Hague).
How the BBC can pretend to impartiality with a straight face is nothing short of remarkable.
It occurred to me that if they had pursued Israel with the same fervor, then there might not have been today’s attack on Jenin, where 11 were killed and 100 wounded, and the Palestinian Authority decided to cut off all contact.
I know this sounds like hypocrisy, but please look at my argument with an open mind. Either justice must be applied to everyone, or everyone gets away with it. The rules cannot be applied selectively, they must be the same for all. The current order is unfair and must be fixed.
By the way, I follow the consequences of the recent performance in Sweden with the burning of the Koran. Today it was reported that three more applications had been received, and one of them stated the desire to burn the Torah. Let’s see.
glenn_nl
You can vaguely make a case of there being some military logic for the Russians blowing up the dam, but equally, a case can be made for Ukraine carrying it out. If the questions were more probing and demanding, with more information forthcoming from our supposedly ‘observing, but not participating’ MoD, the truth would be known. Every launch in Ukraine is monitored and recorded. Our militaries should be obligated not to let false information stand in the public domain. After all, who do these forces serve and operate on behalf of? Hidden elites, or the public?
Destroying Zaporizhzhia NPP would be militarily nonsensical from the Russians’ perspective; aside from losing the practical utility of the plant, the hardest hit by radiation would be an area including all of Crimea, plus surrounding areas controlled by Russia and parts of Russia proper – both ordinary civilians and high concentrations of Russian troops. Luke Harding is a very strange individual, as are Paul Mason and Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, a man cited as a CW expert, whose main qualifications seem to be in farming. Hamish dBG once claimed the Russians could resort to Novichok bombs.
The BBC learned that if they preface everything with ‘Ukraine claim…’ it gets them off the hook on any later accusation they were simply acting as conduits of disinformation.
Goose, ZNPP and Novichok bombs are outdated news.
Acutely pressing question of today is Nuclear Bomb in the Space, which evil Chinese and evil Russians may build:
“China plans to drill the moon for minerals, say space chiefs”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/china-plans-to-drill-the-moon-for-minerals-say-space-chiefs-92nlrwt7f
our news link this piece of information to another event:
“Traces of cocaine found in the UK Parliament, including near Boris Johnson’s office”
https://www.businessinsider.com/cocaine-traces-found-uk-parliament-including-near-pms-office-report-2021-12
and, also link it to this:
“Trump order encourages US to mine the moon”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/07/trump-mining-moon-executive-order