There have been decades of photos of dead Palestinian women and children, and kids being beaten, humilated and imprisoned by Israeli soldiers. The historic killing rate in this “conflict” has been fairly consistent at about 40:1.
None of this ever caused more than a raised eyebrow and a mild tut-tut from the western “liberal” Establishment. I can’t recall camera crews ever pursuing any zionist politicians down the street demanding that they use the word “condemn” of the latest Israeli atrocity.
The paroxysm of hatred in the political and media class, unleashed by a single day of the boot being on the other foot is instructive. It is particularly instructive in their near complete unanimity – what percentage of the discussion on broadcast TV or radio have you heard this last 48 hours given over to Palestinian or pro-Palestinian voices?
Yet it is very plain from social media that the public is by no means as unanimous in their support of Israel as are the political and media class.
But then the public are not bought and paid for.
Asymmetric warfare tends to be vile. Oppressed and colonised peoples don’t have the luxury of lining up soldiers in neatly pressed uniforms and polished boots, to face off against the opposing army in an equality of arms.
A colonised and oppressed people tends, given the chance, to mirror the atrocities perpetrated on them by their oppressor.
This of course feeds in, always, to the propaganda of the Imperialist. A paroxysm of resistance by the oppressed always ends up portrayed by the Imperialist as evidence of the bestiality of the colonised people and in itself justifying the “civilising mission” of the coloniser.
Thus the “Indian Mutiny” became a Victorian tale of rape and murder of British women and of the Black Hole of Calcutta. Thus the Mau Mau were evil butchers, and the IRA were terrorists, which is the modern term of art for those resisting evil and foreign rule.
The Israeli Ambassador to the UN yesterday described the Hamas fighters as “animal like”. This of course is not true. They are people, but people who have been crazed by unbearable levels of injustice and oppression.
I am extremely sorry for all those who die, as in all wars. I am sorry even for the deaths of individual Israeli soldiers, and more so for all the innocents who died and are now dying.
But I will not condemn Hamas.
For this I do not even need to delve into the backstory of Hamas’ initial sponsoring by Israel to split Fatah. They have grown well past that. I do not condemn Hamas because the resistance of the Palestinian people is a reflex response to their slow genocide.
Yes it is an inchoate and violent response. Of course I wish it did not have innocent victims.
The people I do condemn are the political class internationally who, with one voice, put out statements supporting “Israel’s right to self-defence”. A right they grant to the oppressor but deny to the oppressed.
Those are the people who need to be condemned.
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Some stats from 2008-2020 show a clear discrepancy in death and injured during war for Israelis vs Palestinians
https://t.me/intelslava/51700
But not once has a western politician during this period, not even socialists, said: Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
Also book tip to read: Norman Finkelstein – Gaza.
https://www.amazon.com/Gaza-Inquest-into-Its-Martyrdom/dp/0520295714
I’ve Been Meaning to get that Book Jack. Thank’s for reminder
I have read ‘ Method and Madness ‘ –
https://www.amazon.com/Method-and-Madness-audiobook/dp/B0116TX3AC/ref=sr_1_7?
Two apartheid tyrannies down, one to go.
Jack et al.
since you mention Finkelstein I will attach the link here:
Finkelstein´s emergency Podcast in video and writing. Together with Mouin Rabbani.
2,5 hours.
It begins with:
“Okay, folks, for those of you who’ve just joined us, the protocol is going to be I’m going to speak on the background, the historical background to the current situation, and then Mouin Rabbani will speak on what’s currently unfolding or has unfolded since October 7th.
“Video recording and Transcript: Special Emergency Podcast on Gaza, October 8th 2023”
https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/video-recording-and-transcript-special?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1487884&post_id=137809592&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1i81oo&utm_medium=email
downloadable pdf of the podcast transcript
https://mega.nz/file/IQNzCLhK#Vbt-goTgqyZBuGVZNdoVAJ0CvnAwP2xmwi7yq7jf724
(I assume for Finkelstein readers some of it will be familiar)
sry the correct podcast link:
https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/video-recording-and-transcript-special
Thanks Ag..Saves me Time looking for it after he was on with Arron Mate and Katie Halper.
Also Remember This one –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhN0qnuaMA0&t=3s
thx!
AI….sigh
Righteous anger directed against the right people.
I see the British Foreign Secretary has refused point blank to condemn Israel starving 1 million children to death in Gaza.
#OurValues
Lousy Keir Strammer repeating the support for Israel like any other right-wing racist about how much he supports Israel:
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1710578659415757310
Why not even following up that comment with an urge for peace-talks or even sympathy for civilians in Gaza??
Even a former Mossad leader speaks the truth nowadays:
Israel an ‘apartheid state’ – former Mossad chief
The country must decide on its borders or it risks destruction, Tamir Pardo warns
https://swentr.site/news/582526-israel-apartheid-palestine-mossad/
Keir is a self-admitted Zionist who professes to support Israel unequivocally and who employs Mossad agents.
Go figure, the enemy within.
Tub Starmer is likely to be in a tricky spot given that Labour has been quite successful at harnessing the Muslim vote in the UK. And as some sources are reporting, that voting bloc seems to be able to get as many on to the street as do vigils outside Downing Street.
The effusive reaction of our governing class in professing support for Israel in this instance (lighting Westminster blue and white) seems to suggest that they are unaware of a sizeable constituency here in the UK that may be totally at odds with their posturing. 🙁
He supports starving children in England too. These people are impartial in their cruelty.
He is also directly responsible for Julian Assange’s predicament.
Rosemary MacKenzie
October 9, 2023 at 14:42
“From all accounts the Palestinian attack was a “surprise” to the Israelis. Living in a world in which the diabolical happens. I fear something truly diabolical is afoot here. I hope I’m wrong.”
Rosemary, This strikes a chord with me. How on earth did the most sophisticated intelligence and “security” operation on the planet miss the preparations for this “surprise” attack?
Unless it didn’t!
We have been promised “major reprisals” by the Zionist government.
To my mind, It is not beyond the demonic minds of the criminals and fascists now in charge in Jerusalem to have permitted this as a pretext for something of the gravest enormity:
A final solution to their Palestinian “problem”, perhaps?
yes, and presuming it is all as we read, it is amazing – never ceases to amaze me – that the ones that “get through” are all attacks on innocents, i.e. ones not designed to improve support for one’s cause one little bit, but play indeed into the hands of the govt in question.
They were allowed in. Israeli security took a deliberate dive.
Yes, one wonders if Israel let this happen. Netanyahu has faced tremendous criticism over the past months and years. A war, however, will always unify and strengthen people in power. Remember, this is the same Netanyahu that blessed 9/11 as something good for Israel.
Netanyahu says Israel benefitted from 9/11
https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/04/16/quotable-netanyahu-says-israel-benefitted-from-911/
This man is manipulative to the core.
You hint it might be like that missile strike on Konstantinovka market?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2023_Kostiantynivka_missile_strike
Israel has always been supported by the US. It has been a very useful ally in the middle east to the US. The US doesn’t have friends it has interests according to Kissinger. Both the US and Israel are very unfriendly towards Iran which is now not as isolated as it once was. They both could be stupid enough to believe they could take on Iran and win. To date the response from Iran has been calm, as far as I can tell, but I don’t have much information. Anyone have any other ideas?
The zionist filth have been very useful to American Caesar, especially since the Iranians escaped his grasp in 1979. Proxy a-go-go.
Actually I don’t agree at all. Israel does not really serve American interests in any way. The positive aspects are all one way – serving Israel’s interests. Very probably 9/11 would not not have happened if it had not been for Israel; Iraq, Libya, Syria would not have happened either, nor hostility to Iran, though Israel is not the only issue which led to those wars. But they would not have happened, had not Israel’s interests been a factor.
Israel has had a number of patrons since its founding, and US support really only started to grow to present levels after the fall of the ‘Peacock Throne’. Israel serves as a bridgehead and location for pre-positioned supplies that guards against Arab States ever getting their act together to the extent that a threat to the biggest oil patch on the planet seems likely.
Interestingly, the pre-positioned supplies of artillery shells may have diminished of late due to being syphoned off to that other place that is in the process of being thrown to the kerb.
Not true at all.
Woodrow Wilson paved the way for Louis Brandeis, the first heavyweight American Zionist, to become the first Jew on the US Supreme Court. Wilson also endorsed the Balfour Declaration. US Zionists were big proponents of US entry into WW1
FDR hired all sorts of Zionist Jews in his 12 years as US President. His wife was even worse — her physical/intellectual vanity having been stroked and manipulated by numerous Zionists.
Truman lobbied for and signed off on recognition of Israel statehood.
LBJ — if you do not know anything about his Zionism, maybe read a few books on the matter. USS Liberty cover up, maybe?
Why do you think America has been addicted to oil for years and years? Nothing to do with Madison Ave or Hollywood?
The yanks didn’t start pouring large amounts of free-of-charge modern weaponry into Israel until the 80s.
If you look back at the ’67 war, the Israelis were using old Sherman tanks that they’d upgraded themselves, and they had some Centurions that had, by that time, been superseded here in the UK. Their air force was at the time armed with French Mirage jets from the period before Israel’s relationship with France had soured a few years earlier. It was also at that time that the UK decided not to sell the new Chieftain tank to Israel, despite the fact that the Israelis had played a part in its development.
It was the ’73 war that set the US on a path towards becoming Israel’s biggest and best patron, when a reluctant Kissinger was forced to react to Golda Meir very publicly authorising the arming of Israel’s nuclear weapons (such as they were at the time), with the Soviets responding by suggesting that they had extended their nuclear umbrella to Egypt.
Prior to ’79 it was Iran that was the USA’s preferred foothold in the region, and Israel in comparison had very little to offer beyond assuaging Zionist/Jewish interests in the domestic US political scene. Prior to the fall of the Shah, interest in Zionism or even Israel in the USA was merely concerned with politicians trying to secure localised votes.
“Israel serves as a bridgehead and location for pre-positioned supplies that guards against Arab States ever getting their act together”
That’s the Israeli argument, but it’s not true at all. Allying with an isolated pariah forces the US into a hostility relationship with the Arab states, when the economic relationship could have been good and mutually profitable. The prepositioned supplies only benefit Israel, as we’re seeing today.
thanks Craig for your rational report.
“But I will not condemn Hamas.”
Hear, hear well said.
UN General Assembly resolution 37/43 adopted in 1982.
This give the Palestinian people the right to use force if needs be.
https://nitter.net/kennardmatt/status/1710609969085554916#m
She’s eleven years of age and the Zionists murdered her ENTIRE family, this type of thing has been going on since 1984.
https://nitter.net/Lowkey0nline/status/1711041806618472470#m
Can I just say I despise Rachel Riley with a vengeance. This woman is evil.
No, just a bimbo; are there any clever, honest zionists?
Clever? Yes.
Honest? No
Of course, as per usual, the retaliation will now be wholly disproportionate. And ultimately, the EU will pick up the Gaza public infrastructure rebuilding bill, which will likely run to € billions. That’s what’s so bizarre about von der Leyen’s one-sided nonsense and revisionism, effectively giving the EU’s green light. Given this cycle of violence is not new, surely there should be some system in place by now to sanction Israel to an equivalent sum if only to act as deterrent to conducting disproportionate collective punishments in response.
More idiocy:
EU suspends aid to Palestine
There can be no more “business as usual,” Brussels has declared
https://swentr.site/news/584459-eu-suspend-aid-palestine/
Funny I thought EU were against occupation, is not that what we have heard every day now regarding Ukraine?
But it is for the better, Palestine prefer Chinese/Russian support over the US anyway. Good riddance!
Jack.
The hypocrisy of the EU is staggering, Ukrainians defend themselves against the Russians, great give them millions and back them to the hilt, the Palestinians defend themselves against the Zionists, we can’t have this violence against Israel quick suspend aid to them.
The Zionist forces occupying Palestine are in the process of turning the Gaza Strip into a carpark, of the two and half million Palestinians trapped in that open hell hole of a prison half of them are CHILDREN.
The trapped Palestinians need to find a way to breakout of that prison, that has now no power or renewable food supplies, a route possibly via Lebanon seems the most likely in my eyes.
The EU is already backing off yesterday’s position. France and Spain won’t stop aid to the Palestinians.
How the Zionist-supporting BBC use words to influence a situation.
https://nitter.net/AlanRMacLeod/status/1711462615963045898#m
The joke of an ICC were quick to issue a warrant of arrest for Russian president Putin for alleged war crimes, yet the Zionists are currently leveling apartment blocks in the Gaza Strip with missiles fired from fighter jets, yet the silence from the ICC is deafening.
“The ICC must issue arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his ministers immediately.”
Watch the devastation that Zionist missiles inflict on a residential area in the Gaza Strip.
https://nitter.net/kennardmatt/status/1711464401285369899#m
Michael Hudson has observed that the World Bank and the IMF can be thought of as operating from a small office in the basement of the Pentagon.
The same is true of the ICC. Any so-called “court” that has (formally or in practice) no jurisdiction over the greatest criminals in the world, is meaningless and nothing more than yet another propaganda stunt.
Even when their propaganda is obviously untrue and paper-thin, they persist with it. “Mony a mickle maks a muckle”. Drip-drip-drip…
Netanyahu keeps referring to it as ‘the war against Hamas’, whilst in the process of flattening Gaza and bombing the 2.2m inhabitants back into the stone-age.
Killing 260 people at a rave and parading their bodies in the street is “self defence”, Mr Murray?
Yes.
When people are partying it out next to the world’s largest concentration camp, where their goverment with their enthusiastic support commits slow mo genocide, they 100 % have it coming.
Most of these people would have served in the Israeli military, so in theory they are legitimate targets !
No one wants death and destruction but the ball is in israel’s and the USA’s court.
@Tdg
So they should go toe to toe with a first world fully mechanized army.
Maybe if they were they supplied & trained as per Ukraine they could resist occupation more honourably? Would you support that?
And no one is condoning killing and kidnapping, it’s vile. But resisting an overwhelmingly superior foe is never going to be ripe with heroic options or pretty.
*Maybe if they were supplied & trained as per Ukraine they could resist occupation more honourably?
That should be.
The Koreans and Chinese, the Vietnamese, and the Afghans – to name but a few – went “toe to toe with a first world fully mechanized army”. Indeed, an army whose supporters claim that it is the greatest fighting force that ever existed.
That didn’t turn out too well for the “first world fully mechanized army”. The more important consideration is that people fighting for their homes and their families tend to win in the end, no matter how long it takes. Unless the technology gap or the discrepancy in numbers is simply too great, as in the case of the indigenous Americans and Australians. I am reminded of Macaulay’s stirring lines:
‘Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
“To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods”‘.
But then again we have the noble opinion of the great Sir Winston Churchill, which to be honest was representative of most educated people in the West as of the 1930s:
“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place”.
Tdg, Is there actual footage of this, and where can I find it? I’ve checked out four or five vids on youtube specifically related to the music festival and they all more-or-less show the same video footage, and nothing showing people being shot, or dead bodies. Anyway, the first video I clicked on just happened to say the following in the info:
The Supernova music festival began at about 10pm on Friday, just hours after Israel’s week-long Sukkot religious festival. Thousands of young people signed up for the party but were not told the exact location until a few hours before. The festival took place at Kibbutz Re’im, 3 miles from the Gaza border. At dawn, hundreds of people were still partying when Hamas militants…….
It would be interesting to determine if this particular site/location has been used before and, if so, how often, and for how long. The point being that I can’t help finding it somewhat astonishing, and an incredible coincidence, that the festival was organised to take place just three miles away from the Gaza border, and just happened to be held on the night that Hamas planned to begin its attack early the next morning.
It’s one thing (a small number of) Israelis knowing what was being planned by Hamas (which surely must have been months in the planning) and letting it go ahead, but is it possible that it amounted to even more than that?! I mean it all seems so fortuitous for Netanyahu and his fascist buddies on a number of levels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APAhJYIhXv4
PS It was a trance rave, and in my experience, most people who are into trance are peace-loving people……..
The BBC said it was a massacre so therefore it was …
Most people in a trance are out of touch with reality.
“Most people in a trance are out of touch with reality”.
As are the BBC. Deliberately so, like people who have chosen to take hallucinogenic drugs.
The BBC isn’t out of touch with reality Tom, it’s an insidious propaganda machine duping and deceiving tens of millions of people on a regular basis. As for hallucinogenic drugs, numerous cultures around the world have used them going back thousands of years, as I’m sure you know, and they can potentially be enlightening, and sometimes damaging if abused.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_substances_used_in_rituals
“I will not condemn Hamas”
Fair enough, that’s your free choice.
I’ll do it on your behalf. The Palestinians have many, many grievances. Still, I condemn Hamas for choosing to indiscriminately slaughter kids, women and men, Jews and other religions, Israelis and other nationalities, with no questions asked.
I condemn Hamas because if I don’t, I tacitly condone their right to kill me. And their right to kill you too.
The world is full of the guilty, but it is much more full of the innocent. Those who won’t trouble to determine the difference need to be condemned unequivocally, as otherwise all of us who are innocent become legitimate targets.
Not having a big party next to a giant concentration camp would definitely have reduced the risk of that happening quite a bit.
The world may indeed be füll of innocents, but Israel’s illegal settlements not so much.
Those are definitely very much places with a very high concentration of very not innocent people.
Thanks Craig.
First the Palestinians are provoked then a party is organised next to their jail and then the jailers go home leaving the jail doors open. The footage doesn’t look very convincing either. I condemn all violence against non-combatants.
Well said John Main. Sorry I ever read anything by Craig Murray now, and I won’t be reading any more (or at least, not believing we have anything in common beyond our human nature).
Why, Anna – are you now saying that everything else Mr Murray has ever said is wrong or wicked? (Although you never noticed before now). Or do you plan to punish him for disagreeing with your opinion once by ceasing to read his blog?
If you are looking for someone who is infallibly right about everything, I fear you will be disappointed. Even the Pope isn’t infallible any more. And I think I may have been wrong once. Truth doesn’t come easily or cheaply; it has to be worked for.
Tom Welsh. “Terrorism should not be condemned” says Craig Murray, who calls himself a “Human Rights Activist”. Instead, he wishes to condem those who condemn it. How to take him seriously after that? Or even listen to his words without feeling sick. Impossible. Shame on him.
And no, Truth doesn’t have to be worked for. Truth IS.
“And no, Truth doesn’t have to be worked for. Truth IS.”
You can obviously tell truth from lies at a glance. Please would you share your infallible method, as many of us on here have to spend quite a lot of thought to disentangle truth from lies. It would save us so much time.
TIA
I pray you will know, Bayard, the difference between Truth and Lies. This intelligence comes from with-out but we know it with-in.
Can you discern the Truth, Anna?
I think the truth is, that Mr Murray is a man genuinely in favour of peace, in the Middle East and elsewhere. You can wish he would play PC word games if you like (“condemn” things, etc.) but the substance of what he’s saying is what matters.
Craig said in his blog above, “But I will not condemn Hamas…I do not condemn Hamas…The people I do condemn are the political class internationally who, with one voice, put out statements supporting “Israel’s right to self-defence…Those are the people who need to be condemned.”
As you say, “David” (I suspect this Jewish name may not be yours, and if it isn’t, your use of it is of itself antisemitic) it’s “the substance of what he’s saying is what matters.” Craig will not condemn people who have violently taken civilian hostages including children and killed many others. Instead he wants to condemn those who defend against these terrorists. This is what he says.
I would not be asking for any kind of PC word games but from a human rights activist why would I not be appalled by this apology for terrorism? There are infinite ways of having solidarity with the Palestinians but Craig has chosen the most hateful one, which is to condone heinous acts of terror.
Truth: this is what my religious tradition teaches me.
I feel like you but there is no middle ground or room for debate.
Having read “The Green Prince” sometime ago about the son of one of Hamas’s founders, you can see that this coupled with the assassinations enabled Shin Bet to gain total control of Hamas and ran it like a puppet.
Obviously with today’s events something must have changed.
There must also be a reason why the Palestinians are using such savagery and ferocity either to get the IDF to overreact or bring other countries into the conflict.
Whatever happens it will not be good.
may be my comment is a bit deliberate; if so sorry.
In my above links to Norman Finkelstein´s Substack entry which is very long admittedly, Finkelstein´s introduction ends at about 58 minutes with following reminder:
after having summarized the conflict from 1973, he ends with:
“(…)The last desperate attempt by the people of Gaza before today to break out of that concentration camp, came in 2018, “the Great March of Return,” where Palestinians overwhelmingly and non-violently tried to breach that blockade of their home. And there weren’t many human rights reports issued, but there were some. And the most exhaustive and authoritative one, concluded, and now I’m calling from memory — but my memory is pretty good on these things — Israel targeted, it targeted, remember, a non-violent civil protest to try to break that blockade of Gaza. It targeted children, it targeted medical personnel, it targeted journalists, and it targeted people who have physical disabilities as in on wheelchairs. At some point, the brutality just became insupportable and as in the past, that protest too, petered out.(…)”
I would assume that its about armed resistance since the non-armed, elections etc. were not acknowledged by those powers who could contain Israel.
If prison conditions become unbearable, and if the penal administration ignores the calls, prison inmates revolt.
(I am not through with the Finkestein piece and its Q&A but perhaps there is some outlook comment included)
A comment lifted from MoA which coincides with my uneasy feelings about this.
Piotr Berman | Oct 9 2023 17:15 utc | 25 I have seen a clip of a para glider above an area with dancing young people, and now Twitter is full of twits (X-es?) about massacre at “musical Festival” with hundreds of victims… …I understand that attack started at dawn/pre-dawn, what was the timing of the variously called rave/music festival?
The Supernova Sukkot Gathering was a pop-up psytrance rave whose location was only known (changed) a couple of days before the start on Friday, 6 Oct at 10 PM to Tel Gama, 5 km east of the Gaza razor wire and few km west of Re’im. Attack happened 8 1/2 hours later at ~6:30. Oddly enough, NONE of the participants in videos look anything like someone who would have been dancing to trance music for the last eight hours in the desert. The military-aged crowd actually looked pretty fresh and awake. No messy hair. Nobody was even sweating. Amazing.
Attendance at 6:30 AM was reported to *still* be 2,000 – 3,000. Dancing on the Negev’s brown silt/clay/sand surface for hours apparently left their non-sweaty assortment of white pants, black shirts and white tennis shoes clean as a whistle. Like they just got off a bus or something. In fact, video of the dirt surfaces are unbelievably litter-free for a supposed eight hours of drinking/raving/whatever.
Then few extremely noisy ‘Hamas’ paragliders [WTF?? …just, NO] supposedly were able take off from central Gaza around dawn – undetected – and fly slowly over the border fence to the rave site 5km away. Incidentally, that put them on a path directly towards the IDF Southern Command Headquarters (Re’im Army Base), and a little further towards Beersheba, Hatzerim Air Base and Nevatim Air Base. All that after crossing one of the most heavily guarded/surveilled borders on earth and flying into a dense air defense network… with nobody raising the alarm. Gosh, lucky for them! They landed their paragliders in a field next to the rave (which nobody has a picture of) and approached the festival heavily armed. Reportedly, nobody at the festival noticed or did anything until after they started shooting. Despite armed security at the festival, at least one IDF APC on site and many armed Israelis, the few paraglider terrorists were able to proceed unscathed, and wound/kill dozens of fleeing ravers.
Unclear if the paraglider ‘assault’ happened before or after dozens of rockets would have been flying from Gaza almost directly overhead. The only mention of them was something about the ravers being startled and confused. “Gosh… why would rockets be coming from Gaza? Oh well…”
At some point, a dozen or so additional terrorists arrive in a small Toyota pickup contingent, blocked the road to the entrances and started slaughtering everyone trying to leave. At least 125 abandoned/disabled/burnt vehicles are shown on the road near the entrances, but no bodies. In fact, no visible blood either. And despite 2,000+ ravers with cellphones, nobody seems to have pictures/videos of their wounded or dead friends. A few sketchy ones, but there should have been plenty for 260 dead and several hundred wounded. This was all perpetrated by maybe two dozen terrorists who then proceeded to collect hostages *on motorcycles*. The tearful but photogenic German raver with some kind of dreadlocks was collected that way and later shown seemingly unconscious or dead in the back of a pickup, but calmly sipping water at a supposed Hamas hostage house. Should I even mention how impossible it would have been for the IDF *NOT* to show up and secure (not necessarily repair) the concentration camp wall breaches in all that time to prevent militants from entering/leaving? Where’s those brave IDF snipers they use for taking out Palestinian kids?
Now during all this carnage, none of the festival-goers or organizers managed to call any nearby military bases or alert the 15,000+ IDF in positions minutes away. No word ever got to the air bases and no helicopter gunships showed up. Not even an IDF drone. I can understand that if this entire attack was over in ten minutes, but militants continued to arrive and depart the festival grounds for *at least* six hours unmolested. Nearby tiny Re’im was also under attack, so the police there would have been useless. But Beersheba is maybe 30 minutes away and the military bases much closer. This was on Telegram and Twitter before any IDF or Israeli police showed up and offered a body count. Victims seem remarkably blood-free for being shot in the only picture I’ve seen. All the other pictures are just collections of (amazingly blood-free) body bags.
Videos also show Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ – green headbands) guys interspersed with ‘Hamas militias’, which would be al Qassam. These two groups do not get along at all. Hamas (already well-compromised by Israeli/Arab intel) would never include the much smaller PIJ crazies (also compromised by Israeli/Arab intel) in an op like this if they wanted to keep it secret beforehand. Groups videoed at the site at 9:30 and noon look more like average looters than militias, and were unarmed at that. The few militia guys Israel *did* eventually capture near this site look a lot more like Colombian mercs than Palestinians, but who knows.
A staged ‘massacre’ implies that Israel had foreknowledge of the rocket attack and prison escape/rampage, parts of which were undoubtedly real (kind of). I think they’ll be satisfied to just let this disappear since no MSM and nobody on social media (to my knowledge) has pointed out this sloppy psyop.
Posted by: PavewayIV | Oct 9 2023 21:59 utc | 132
Indeed. Many inconsistencies about this whole thing.
We are constantly told nothing happens without Israel knowing in advance, due to spies on the ground in Gaza and inflitration of Hamas and even its military wing the al-Qassam Brigades. Israel obviously has very advanced signals intelligence surveillance operational in Gaza too. It seems bewildering pilots could learn to fly and land these motorised paragliders in complete secrecy.
Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, was featured on Newsnight tonight, speaking openly about how it might be necessary to starve 100,000 Gazans to death by way of punishment. They’ve cut the water and electricity, and we’ve got stupid low quality officials and ministers in the UK praising this collective punishment madness as somehow justified. Was that the plan all along?
“We are constantly told nothing happens without Israel knowing in advance…”
Careful! Don’t trip over that pile of propaganda. Naturally violent repressive regimes like to spread stories about how invincible and omniscient they are. Check out what happened last the time the “invincible” Israelis invaded Lebanon. They didn’t come off too bloody well.
Just seen your post Andy, which definitely wasn’t there when I started typing out my reply to Tdg a bit further up the page (during which time I came across a couple of other videos in respect of the music festival, and so checked them out as well). Anyway, you’ve collated a hell of a lot more information about the rave than I have, but the scenario you suggest seems just too incredible – i.e. that it was all staged – but, that said, there’s certainly a few anomalies in respect of the festival.
It is quite beyond my comprehension (and I hope it always will be beyond my comprehension) how CM and the posters under this repulsive article can read accounts like this (from Alex Berenson):
‘The terrorists raped and kidnapped and executed unarmed civilians and prisoners. They posted videos of their atrocities online to celebrate. They killed more than 260 people at the rave alone, hundreds more villagers nearby. As one survivor wrote of what happened after she and another attendee were captured:
The guy who was with me didn’t stop crying and begging for his life. I tried to explain to him that he needs to stop crying, “It annoys them, stop crying and everything will be fine.”
They had knives and hammers. I realized we were in danger. At first he listened to me but very quickly he returned to his initial and fell on his knees and again screamed and begged for his life.
And then – he didn’t scream anymore. They murdered him in front of my eyes.’
And conclude with ‘I will not condemn Hamas’, or even worse ‘they had it coming’.
Shame on you all.
Most people, well those with any sort of conscience, would hold the view that maintaining an occupation and a highly concentrated population living in a large open prison; a prison offering people no hope for the future. A prison that punishes them seemingly simply for being born in the wrong place. Most people would view that as unacceptable and understand it creates a dangerous hotbed of righteous resentment.
It amazes me how so many Israeli settlers are so oblivious to the suffering next door as they enjoy their pool parties and various festivals and celebrations. Do you hold a view such people deserve security and a peaceful existence as of right? Were I Jewish, I wouldn’t dream of moving there without a satisfactory two state solution first having been agreed. I find it very difficult to have any affinity with Israel until the people there collectively do the right thing.
lots of appeal to emotion, signs of a psyoped brain. shame on us for not educating ourselves better. for forgetting the past 70 years of oppression. Shame, shame, shame. Now let’s level Gaza and their innocents because they convinced me they are fighting animals.
Exactly.
And how poor and out of touch are the political class? The media and political framing of this as being a war between Gaza.(Hamas) and Israel, as if equals, is utterly inappropriate and deplorable. This is a demolition. Outside the highly controlled narratives of the west, the global south and Asia see things with more nuance. Starmer claimed he’s angry, because these attacks set the peace process back. What f*ckin peace process?
And as for von der Leyen and Josep Borrell, they are beneath contempt. Subservient lackeys of Washington. Not one of these politicians seems capable of placing themselves in the position of the average Gazan, and imagining just how hopeless things must seem from their perspective. Hamas were only elected after more reasonable and pragmatic options failed, due to Israel’s intransigence, its unwillingness to negotiate in good faith.
Israel is, beyond any doubt, an oppressor state. Its subjugation of the Palestinian people is testimony to that.
And where there is state oppression and unfairness, there is always resentment and resistance. It is the way of the world, and Palestinian territories are no exception.
But now Israel is taking the steps to rid themselves of the Palestinians, in what can only be described as a policy to destroy the Palestinians in an act of the genocide of the Palestinian people.
Like the 1930s Nazis, the state of Israel is going to exterminate the Palestinians.
And so Israel has now militarily trapped some 2.3 million people, cutting off all electricity, gas, fuel, water, food and medicine, in an act of utter barbarity, whilst Israeli fighter jets bomb civilian buildings killing men, women and children.
For Israel, the Final Solution is underway. They are going to clear the land of Palestinians.
This is a war crime. It is ethnic cleansing. You don’t need to be a Palestinian supporter to see that. Human decency tells you that. And now the USA is sending an aircraft carrier replete with fighter planes and five missile destroyers.
1930s Germany ethnically cleansed the Jews, and now, Israel cleanses the Palestinians.
And all supported by the USA and the UK, who know a thing or two about ethnic cleansing.
It is, I am afraid, that simple.
Well said sir.
Philip
May be you would want to take the time for the substack piece by Norman Finkelstein.
https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/video-recording-and-transcript-special
You might find it lacking empathy with the victims of the latest attacks.
But if so, I assure you, below Finkelstein´s factual style are numerous layers of conflict, of resolve, of deep personal sorrow – as his parents were in fact Holocaust survivors which he never used to draw scholarly argumentation from, but to convey his honesty in his attempt to make understandable the scale of destruction of the Palestinian territories and its people since 1948.
He states at about min 56:
“(…) in 1982 — I made a commitment, “I’m not going to abandon the Palestinian people, come what may, I’m sticking to this cause.” By 2020, (…) I had given up. I thought the cause was lost. I didn’t see any point at this moment to do anything anymore.(…)”
This is one of the most respected and best scholars on this topic. He has in big parts ruined his entire professional life in terms of career for sticking out for the Palestinian cause. He chose the hard path. So NOT pointing out Israeli atrocities would have granted him a very agreeable life with tenure at an Ivy League institution and invitiations all over the world. He chose to throw away all that for what he thought and still does at 70 think, truth is worth.
In an ideal world, naturally we would have no reason for disagreement on this. But I think of all the people, Craig Murray should be worthy of your considering thoughts as to why Hamas´ carried out this attack.
Any person who has ever witnessed the dire state of the Palestinian territories has conceded that its pure horror.
In fact its so bad that even the UN has made clear that Palestinians have a right to resist. I am not argueing that killing those 260 people is the right way.
But when did violence (which the right to resist in essence is) ever appear as just to those who fall victim to it?
David Cameron described Gaza as: “open-air prison”.
Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling: “the largest concentration camp ever to exist.”
Peter Moorer, head of The Red Cross: “I’ve never seen such massive destruction ever before”, drawing from a life long experience with war zones all over the word.
Chris Hedges, a former war reporter and editor at the NYT, and former student of Harvard University’s Divinity School, working as a minister, who has had a case of PTS after the horrors of war reporting he witnessed started out with his comment on the Hamas attack, 3 days ago:
“(…)Palestinians Speak the Language of Violence Israel Taught Them (…)
The indiscriminate shootings of Israelis by Hamas and other Palestinian resistance organizations, the kidnapping of civilians, the barrage of rockets into Israel, drone attacks on a variety of targets from tanks to automated machine gun nests, are the familiar language of the Israeli occupier. Israel has spoken this blood-soaked language of violence to the Palestinians since Zionist militias seized more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, destroyed some 530 Palestinian villages and cities and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in more than 70 massacres. Some 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed between 1947 and 1949 to create the state of Israel in 1948.
Israel’s response to these armed incursions will be a genocidal assault on Gaza. Israel will kill dozens of Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Hundreds of Palestinians have already died in Israel air assaults since the launch of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” on Saturday morning, which left 700 Israelis dead.
Prime Minister Netanyahu warned Palestinians in Gaza on Sunday to “leave now,” because Israel is going to “turn all Hamas hiding places into rubble.”
(…)”
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/palestinians-speak-the-language-of
The purpose of most comments here too, I believe, is to point out facts and background that today is completely left out in the mass media of the West. If WE do not speak about these things nobody does.
You cannot condemn 260 human beings killed during a festival without mentioning 700,000 refugees, without thousands of killed civilians in the so-called occupied territories, without the thousands of prisoner often subject to Israeli torture.
To quote one of the best known Israeli historians Benny Morris (I have already quoted him here, so sorry if it’s a repetition) says about the occupation:
“…founded on brute force, repression and fear, collaboration and treachery, beatings and torture chambers and daily intimidation, humiliation and manipulation, along with stealing of valuable land and resources.”
And if you look again closely into the many comments there will be several useful links.
The individuals commenting here might not agree always among themselves but none here is getting paid, none here is gaining any economic advantage from spending a lot of time sometimes researching and sharing sources of information.
This is something you couldn’t claim about too many out there who get paid kingly sums for repeating ready-made snippets in respected newspapers, delivered by those very government officials who these reporters should in fact scrutinize instead of conspiring.
And what do you think about what’s being done to Gaza and its inhabitants now, Philip. And what would you think if it transpired that Netanyahu and co. knew what was coming and allowed it to happen, for a number of beneficial reasons?
Have you actually been to Gaza, Allan? Are you aware that it is no longer occupied by the Israelis, and are you aware that it has a border with Egypt (i.e. it is not surrounded by Israel)? Are you also aware that, according to one highly respected journalist who has made multiple trips to the region, many in Gaza beg Hamas to stop launching attacks on Israel, the retaliation for which is exacted on them, not on the Hamas terrorists who disappear to safety as soon as they are done. This is well worth a read (it hardly exonerates Israel):
Lattes, beach barbecues (and dodging missiles) in the world’s biggest prison camp, by Peter Hitchens (Daily Mail, 11 Oct 2010)
I condemn utterly any atrocities committed by Israeli forces or Hamas. I don’t excuse any of it. Murder is murder. In my previous post I just wanted to express my utter bewilderment at how any human being could read or hear about the horrific attacks, on ordinary people, men, women and children, young and old, and then not condemn the perpetrators, or even revel in the horror. Sorry, but I just can’t get my head round that. It’s chilling. And it’s sick. These are people, for Christ’s sake.
Blx. Daily Mail readers are outraged only because this time the victims aren’t all brown and Muslim. Every year the apartheid regime butchers hundreds of children, whom they view as animals. Strangely, that never makes the front page of the Daily Mail or BBC headlines. Endless atrocities and daily humiliation is the glaring context here. That is the lens through which Craig is able to view the breakout of October 7th. He knows what Israel is all about and the desperation of life in the Gaza concentration camp.
Craig did in fact say the following, Philip, immediately prior to saying that he will not condemn Hamas:
“I am extremely sorry for all those who die, as in all wars. I am sorry even for the deaths of individual Israeli soldiers, and more so for all the innocents who died and are now dying.”
And he finishes by saying:
“Yes it is an inchoate and violent response. Of course I wish it did not have innocent victims.
The people I do condemn are the political class internationally who, with one voice, put out statements supporting “Israel’s right to self-defence”. A right they grant to the oppressor but deny to the oppressed.
Those are the people who need to be condemned.
And I condemn them also, and especially the political elite in the US and the UK and EU who could have brought pressure to bear on Israel decades ago to free the Palestinians from the nightmare they are living in.”
Not good enough Allan, for me at least. This was an orgy of savage, sadistic violence. Pure evil. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies it. It won’t do anything to alleviate the plight of Palestinians, quite the reverse. And I don’t think the perpetrators care. They were clearly enjoying themselves.
Not to condemn people who murder non-combatant, men, women and children and, in the case of one grandmother, post video of the killing on social media, is contemptible. Just to shrug your shoulders, express mild ‘regret’ and say, yes but what about Israel, is just nauseating.
Craig Murray seems to me a weird, pious individual with an inflated sense of his own intelligence, humanity, and importance. Yes, he did heroic journalistic work on the Alex Salmond show trial (for which I donated to his defense fund) and he’s absolutely right to campaign for Julian Assange. But he has some bizarre obsessions and fairly repugnant views. I’ve seen him praise the Soviet Union for how well it looked after its citizens; then there’s his adoration of Jeremy Corbyn; and now this…
You’ve said two things now (at the very least) which make me question your credibility Philip, the first being the falsehood you threw in initially that Craig said ‘they had it coming’. He said no such thing, and neither did he imply it. As for his adoration of Jeremy Corbyn, THAT is just the sort of thing a propagandist would say. But perhaps you could provide an example or two of this adoration on Craig’s part. No? Thought not!
Craig has been critical of Jeremy Corbyn in the past, but he did say something to the effect that Jeremy is a nice guy in a post several months ago after meeting him. And the implication of what you say is that you believe all the B/S about Jeremy being antisemitic and an antisemite, which completely blows your credibility out of the water.
These stories of atrocities by an ‘enemy’ have been trotted out regularly over the ages by TPTB: the ottomans, the nazis, the Japanese, the vietcong, the russians, etc. They are usually fact-free. There will be no truth or rational debate from the MSM. Let’s wait a while and find out what actually happened before reacting?
Indeed, Hamas, have, of course, been accused of the time-honoured atrocity of killing babies, famous from WWI, but probably old even then. Unfortunately for its outing this time, even the IDF denied it was true.
Israeli army kills Palestinian teenager in occupied West Bank, by Zena Al Tahhan (Al Jazeera, 14 Nov 2022)
Fulla Rasmi Abdelazeez Masalmeh, 15, was shot and killed by the Israeli army while in a vehicle near the town of Ramallah.
Yes, I know two wrongs do not make a right. But unless a sincere and honest attempt is made at a meaningful peace process recognising the rights of the original indigenous population of Palestine, rather than accepting foreign settlers and honestly recognising the hypocrisy of supporting an apartheid regime, then the atrocities on both sides will continue.
It’s a simple enough choice. When one group of people has invaded another group’s land, stolen most of it, killed most of those who fought back or even protested, then confined over a million survivors in a huge concentration camp; is it permissible for the victims to fight back in any way they can or not?
You seem to cleave to the pure teaching of Christ: that violence should never be resisted, and that its victims must simply “turn the other cheek”. “Here: you have slaughtered half my family; now please slaughter the other half”.
Most human beings would concede to the victims the right to fight back in any way they can. For myself, I believe that all the death and suffering caused since 1948 is solely the responsibility of those who founded and maintain the state of Israel. They started the violence, and they bear the responsibility for its consequences.
Perhaps they don’t believe Alex Berenson. Who has said ‘they had it coming’?
“It is quite beyond my comprehension (and I hope it always will be beyond my comprehension) how CM and the posters under this repulsive article can read accounts like this (from Alex Berenson):”
Because we read accounts like this (from Piotr Berman)
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/10/now-we-have-your-attention/comment-page-2/#comment-1045391
The “slow Palestine genocide” was actually one of the fastest population explosions on this planet: https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population
From 63,444 Gazans in 1950 to 756,083 in 2022.
Glasgow went from 1,755,170 ppl in 1950 to 1,688,907 in 2022.
Crammed in an open air prison and repeatedly bombed by one of the world’s most powerful militaries.
Highly normal…
And putting them in a ghetto and then “mowing the lawn” is therefore ok? What exactly is the point you tirelessly are trying to make?
Perhaps one way of defying those who seek to exterminate them. If the expectation was that the imprisoned, dispossessed Palestinians would lose the will to live and just quietly die off, those who held that hope have been disappointed.
The European colonists in North American progressively drove the Native Americans off their lands, taking first all the good farming country and then the grasslands as well. Eventually the indigenous people were confined to a few desert places known as “reservations”.
The Nazis had similar plans for the Soviet peoples when they launched their invasion in 1941. The general plan was to annex the fertile farmlands of Ukraine and elsewhere and the natural resources; then perhaps to drive the inhabitants east of the Urals and hope that they would just die out.
The Israelis lacked such options; or at any rate they were not prepared simply to drive the Palestinians into the desert to die under the eyes of the civilised world. It must be embarrassing to see them not only surviving but actually multiplying. You’d think.
And Antonym
Statistics can mean anything; it is the context that matters. You just quote statistics without actually interpreting anything because for this you need:
1. A reference, where these statistics are taken from.
2. It is to be noted that since 2007, Gaza became an open prison. Many of the Palestinians who were internally displaced to make place for the colonialist settlers were transferred to this prison and that might also explain some of the rise.
3. Is there a rise of the entire Palestinian population to the same extent in the historical area of Palestine, colonized by Israel?
4. Genocide could also include cultural genocide. The Palestinians within Gaza strip and indeed in all of occupied Palestine are not freely able to enjoy their resources, their culture and their freedom. They do not have control over basic resources which have now been cut off. Is that also not genocide – or even now more openly, attempted genocide. Should the world only start to be concerned when the number of Palestinians being held and tortured as prisoners, starts to fall?
5. If you look at the index of population growths worldwide you can quickly see that in fact the fastest growing populations are not the most prosperous. In fact the most quickly growing populations tend to coincide with the poorest and least advantaged countries, whereas populations in the prosperous west are declining. So what do your statistics actually mean?
Please answer this or refrain in future from repeating these meaningless statistics.
Just came across this (posted yesterday morning):
Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’
Cairo official says Israel focused on West Bank instead of Gaza; Egypt’s spy chief said to warn PM of ‘terrible operation,’ Netanyahu denies it
Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for a surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big” — which included an apparent direct notice from Cairo’s intelligence minister to the prime minister……
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/
Well Netanyahu did say it was Israel’s 9.11?!
It’s heartbreaking that the MSM overwhelms and conditions people to their propaganda, when the reality is there but almost submerged. It’s surprising that sites like this still manage to survive.
Well said.
Just came across this lengthy article about the music festival in which it says the following (which I haven’t heard before):
Billed as the “first time” the Brazilian psy-trance festival Universo Paralello was held in Israel, thousands of festival goers descended on the desert outside of Kibbutz Re’im for the Supernova event.
What we know about the Supernova festival where Hamas militants killed hundreds of attendees, by Tessa Fleming (ABC Australia, 9 Oct 2023)
The first time it was being held in Israel…. How tragic is that!
Purely juristically speaking:
Does the Israeli government actually have a right to self-defend against the Palestinians?
Aren’t those, at least on paper, Israeli citizens?
And if so, how can said government declare war on them?
Obviously these questions won’t be regarded much, but I still wonder.
Christoph
Palestinians in the Westbank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens, they are occupied; jews living in Westbank (so-called “settlers”) are, however, Israeli citizens, so you have an apartheid system.
What is disgusting is that EU nor US do not even call for peace talks, let alone a ceasefire, but declared in effect open season for Israel!
And the non-reaction from the arab states is awful – they could easily, with all their power of arms and money, help palestinians. The arab world really needs a new Arab spring kicking those pro-western and even pro-israeli governments out for good.
Even in Lebanon, the US is about to build a new, colossal embassy:
A massive new US embassy complex in a tiny Middle East nation is raising eyebrows, by Nadeem Ebrahim (CNN, published 5 May 2023, updated 13 May 2023)
…which of course in reality is a big spy, intelligence housing directed against Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Hamas.
Just surprised our own government hasn’t rushed to ban Al Jazeera News channel across the UK
– which provides a valuable, alternative perspective – just like they banned Russia Today News channel.
UK democracy? Never happened.
Arab money is needed too much by the city, and outfits like BAE, so I’d have to imagine that banning an Arab based news service might be problematic. 🙂
Russia Today gives a surprisingly balanced account of the news. And, Sputnik news is also very good, albeit more Russia biased, with good reporting on Science stories. Using a VPN, I have no problem accessing these.
However, Al Jazeera News is just the usual western MSM BS but with an Arabic slant. They do some good reporting but most of their headline stuff is pure BBC type drivel. Maybe they have been got at.
Stevie Boy
You should be able to reach RT and Sputnik without VPN on these addresses:
RT: swentr.site
Sputnik:sputnikglobe.com
Yes I have also no faith in Aljazeera English, that channel have almost turned into CNN regarding foreign policy-narratives.
Thanks for those urls, Jack. Very helpful indeed!
As I recollect, al-Jazeera was very good for a while. Was it back during the attack on Iraq? Then it got acquired and went sour. Today I’d as soon read the Grauniad.
Its name notwithstanding, I find RT balanced and absolutely not favourable to Russia.
Thank you Craig for being brave enough to speak your mind and say the unsayable
Over 700 palestinians killed by now, including some 140 children.
Israel continues bombardment of the Gaza Strip overnight, hitting residential buildings.
The Palestinian press agency Safa has reported artillery shelling east of Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/10/israel-hamas-war-live-appeals-for-safe-corridor-gaza-toll-goes-past-700
I remember almost directly when the Libyan violent uprising began in 2011, the ICC issued a sudden arrest warrant for Khadaffi for alleged “crimes against humanity”, even though no such crimes had been committed.
Libya: Muammar Gaddafi subject to ICC arrest warrant (BBC News, 27 Jun 2011)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13927208
But when the Israeli PM publish videos on his social media account boasting of how his army bomb whole apartments in an area they are occupying – in an area that is one of the most populated regions on earth and when over 700 Palestinians are murdered – not a single word of the ICC. Disgusting people.
The least the Arab states could do now is to push for ICC opening a case against Israel.
Okay, I’ll just remind you that the Jews have another piece of land on this planet, this is the Jewish Autonomous Region in Russia. With an area of 35,200 square km (Israel’s 22,100). This was created by the USSR in the 30s of the 20th century, specifically so that the Jews would have their own land.
During the time of the monarchy, before the USSR, Jews were deprived of civil rights and could only settle in certain places of the Russian Empire (the Pale of Settlement). I’ll just give you toponyms so you can roughly understand where the borders of the Russian Empire were and which parts were populated by Jews, and to whom the USSR distributed these territories. Governorates, I use the main city, since governorates have historically changed their names and boundaries, and city names are more stable and may be familiar to a modern reader:
Bessarabia Governorate with center in Kishinev, now Moldova and Ukraine;
Vilnius, now Belarus and Lithuania;
Vitebsk, now Belarus and Latvia;
Volyn, now Ukraine;
Grodno, now Belarus, Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine;
Ekaterinoslav/Dnepropetrovsk/Dnepr, now Ukraine;
Kiev, now Ukraine;
Kaunas, now Latvia, Lithuania and Belarus;
Minsk, now Belarus and Ukraine;
Mogilev, now Belarus and Russia;
Podolsk/Vinnitsa, now Ukraine;
Poltava, now Ukraine;
Tavrida/Simferopol, now Crimea, Russia;
Kherson, with Odessa Nikolaev Tiraspol, i cannot comment on whose it is today;
Chernigov, left bank of the Dnieper, a remnant of the division of ‘Little Russia’ into Chernigov and Poltava.
You can also trace what happened to the Jews in those territories. Jews call the mass migration to Palestine Aliyah. The first Aliyah was caused by Greek pogroms in the region of Odessa and Akkerman, now Ukraine. The second by pogroms in Kishinev, now Moldova (not for very long I think it soon be Romania). The reason for the third Aliyah was the Balfour Declaration. The fourth Aliyah occurred due to anti-Semitism in Poland and Hungary. The fifth Aliyah was a flight from Nazism and later due to persecution in Arab countries.
—
Europeans, in principle, are rather indifferent to oppression, until the oppressed begin to shout loudly and shoot back. So, Israel’s behavior in search of patronage and protection is quite understandable, given the entire historical background surrounding this ethnicity. Much is exaggerated because otherwise you don’t hear.
At the same time, it would be naive to deny that Zionists are looking for support in diasporas; or appealing to common ethnicity, history, religion and other unifying factors when seeking support from people in power. I mean things besides official government requests for help and cooperation, I mean other levers of influence, such as positive PR, facilitation and the like.
And I believe that, taking into account the entire history of this people, and considering that their state is young and not welcomed by its neighbors, they put much more effort than other countries specifically into building positive PR and building sustainable support.
The same applies to Ukraine.
Unfortunately, building positive PR means hushing up the ugly sides. And those who help build positive PR help to hush up the ugly sides.
As for the conflicts in Europe and the Middle East, they are caused by xenophobia and its well-known manifestations: racism, anti-Semitism, Russophobia, dehumanization, alienation etc.
All problems can be solved through compromise. But sometimes some people find themselves surrounded by support and carefully built positive PR, so in a more advantageous position than their opponent. So the idea occurs to them that they can afford not to compromise with these “backward subhumans.”
These are my more detailed thoughts, and I wrote this so that I would not be accused of anti-Semitism or portraying someone as the cause of conflicts. People are all the same everywhere. And it would be great to treat everyone equally. And in a conflict, discrimination and preference are like two arms of one lever; as soon as you raise one arm, the second will inevitably fall, and vice versa. So if you give preferences to one side of the conflict, then you are discriminating against the other side.
It’s surprising that people tend to perceive support for only one side of the conflict as something positive.
In a normal world and with rational thinking, support should be aimed at finding a compromise and restoring balance. This is the only way to achieve sustainable peace. Supporting only one side is inevitably perceived as injustice by the other side, and provides the basis for the rebirth of conflict in the future.
Thank you Tatyana for this exposition of the historic situation regarding the Jews in Russia. For anyone wanting to understand further there are excellent maps and details in Martin Gilbert’s Atlas of Jewish History which covers the the rest of the world. I don’t think anyone would doubt the wretched history that this religious minority has endured over the centuries and nothing short of absolute desperation could explain the behaviour of the other parties involved in this conflict at the moment. My concern is that desperation is the worst mood for conciliatory discussion and the dangers of drawing others into the conflict are obvious, now more that ever we need better leadership, which exactly what we don’t have.
The people who came to colonise Palestine, the Zionist Movement, came to violently dispossess a people they saw as subhuman.
They were not fleeing persecution, indeed Zionism roots come from the assimilated Jewish populations that were not being subjected to Pogroms. Such as the Literal British Prime Minister (Benjamin Disraeli). Indeed they came expressly to persecute.
I recommend “On Zionist Literature” which gives a fascinating account of the origin of Literary Zionism.
Leaving Eastern Europe to Murder people from Western Asia, is not a conflict. It’s a genocidal terrorist group committing murder and armed robbery.
There is a European oppresser and West Asian oppressed – it’s the simplest, one sided issue in history – The Zionist State Terrorist group are in the wrong, and have no business occupying Palestine.
All people living in Palestine deserve equal rights, and the occupying terrorist group doesn’t have any claim on Palestine, other than force of arms.
If people want to live there with equal rights, fine, but as as occupiers – no.
“Now We Have Your Attention”
That is the essence of it. The Palestinians know that so far as the West and the Arab elites are concerned they have been assigned one role: to just lie down and quietly disappear from history. The only option they have been afforded by the powerful is to rage against the dying of the light and hit the apartheid regime in any way they can.
“They should enter talks with their oppressors, supervised by neutral, good-faith EU and US officials!,” say Rishi, Sir Keir, the Guardian and their parrots. The same old cynical “voice of reason” that will be smugly uttered right to the very end. The Palestinians know by now they are being lectured to by immoral frauds.
To all those who back such atrocities are as bad as the side they claim to be fighting. End of.
The hypocrisy in the comments section along with the inability to connect the dots is astounding.
To all the socialists in here, which is about 90%, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and collectivise (further) and gather your own funds and send them to your chosen butchers.
But of course you won’t do this. Instead you will perpetuate the tax burden on the rest of us who would rather stay out of it all.
There will always be one, sigh: Understand that people are criticizing the hypocrisy, where Israel for 60 years have killed civilians, blockaded them, occupied them, annexed their land, tortured, jailed, oppressed a defenseless population, bulldozing their homes, impoverish them without any (real) reaction from the the outside world.
Add that no one helps them, no one criticize their tormentor instead the west give the tormentor arms worth hundreds of billions of dollars killing their people.
What do you expect to happen with such people? I reckon some 95% of Gazans suffer from PTSD.
Imagine if someone murdered your mother by a bomb and you see the aftermath of such strike, what would you do? How would you react? Imagine this murdering of your whole family, population have been going on for 60 years. What do you expect to happen with young people in Gaza growing up in such a climate?
Writer Rashid Khalidi: ‘As long as Israel starves and blocks Gaza, there will be violence’
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-16/writer-rashid-khalidi-as-long-as-israel-starves-and-blocks-gaza-there-will-be-violence.html
Thus keep your crocodile tears and moralism to yourself.
I have no tears for what is happening there.
As for the example you gave, it is heavily one-sided and completely missed the religious aspect. Which isn’t going anywhere.
But I’ll let you have your hyperbole and miss the point that peace is the answer.
You seem to miss the overall point: there is violence because there are no peace. Violence begets violence – especially for the part that have no power.
Israel could wipe out the whole of Hamas and there will only be a new group being formed as long as the occupation and annexation goes on.
I disagree, Jack. There is violence because certain people gain from it, and intend to go on doing so.
To say “there is violence because there are no peace” is a tautology. Although it is more logical to say that “there is no peace when there is violence”. Peace is defined as the absence of violence.
This young Jewish man speaks the truth well done Sir.
“Remember, if I were to go to Israel today it’s called “return” even though I was born in Uzbekistan and am an American Jew.
And if a Gaza Palestinian goes to Israel, it’s called “invade” even though he still has the keys to the house his family is from.”
https://nitter.net/rafaelshimunov/status/1710720878416105623#m
It has been pointed out (by more than one Jewish writer) that many if not most Israelis are not genetically descended from the Jews who lived in Palestine in pre-Roman times. Instead, a lot of them have genes that show they are descended from Eastern Europeans.
So what? I hear you cry. What puzzles me is, “Who is a Jew?” It’s not someone who practises the Jewish religion; many famous Jews didn’t and don’t. It’s apparently not genetic either. What does that leave?
It’s distinctly possible that many of the oppressed Palestinians in Gaza are more “Jewish” genetically than their oppressors in Israel. But when did the fortuitously rich and powerful ever pay attention to facts or reason?
Absolutely correct, Tom.
The most vocal and extremist “jews” tend to originate from Eastern Europe – known as Ashkenazi ‘Jews’.
Genetic studies suggest that they in fact have Azarian origins and are linked to the Khazak region of central Asia. They are apparently a central Asian group who converted to Judaism, and the Jewish ‘diaspora’ is largely mythology. They are genetically distinct from Jewish groups indigenous to the middle east, who are now a minority.
Similar studies suggest that the Palestinians are genuinely Semitic – and are likely descended from the peoples who were already in Palestine at the time of Roman occupation.
This is important because the ‘legitimacy’ claimed by Israel and their right to the lands of Palestine, derives from their ancient alleged covenant with their sky god in the Bronze Age. Bollocks of course. This is what they claim gives them a “right of return’.
This has been cynically exploited for geopolitical purposes by the usual suspects who recognise the pivotal strategic geographical importance of Palestine. Such cynicism was on display from Arthur Balfour (himself deeply antisemitic – and actually a Cecil maternally) whose notorious declaration kicked this off: A Jewish state in Palestine can be Britain’s “Ulster’ in the middle east. It is now America’s ‘Ulster’.
One deeply ironic outcome of this is that, given that the Palestinians are truly Semitic and that most “Jews” are not, is that the State of Israel is genuinely the most anti-semitic institution on Earth.
But, since when have facts mattered in Geopolitical calculations?
Some Jewish individuals/groups get highly offended upon being reminded of the empirical evidence that there’s no such thing as a ‘Jewish race,’ i.e. no Jewish genotype or biological marker that establishes common ancestry and links to the region. When all said and done Judaism is a belief system, nothing more.
The term antisemitism is therefore helpful to Zionists, insomuch as it implies a common link – back to Semitic tribes. It helps in justifying obnoxious discriminatory policies and the absurd Law of return.
I think it’s a question of self-identification. However, as is the case with any other names of nations.
For example, who is Russian? Not necessarily genetically a Slav, and not necessarily an Orthodox Christian. Too much time has passed since the days of the original Russia, and much has changed.
It’s the same with America, an American is not necessarily an English-speaking white Christian, but quite a Black, or a Latino, professing Islam or Judaism. Who cares?
So I’m sure it’s a matter of self-identification. If a person believes that his personal values come from the culture of a given country, or his roots come from the people of a given country, or the history of his family comes from the history of a given people, then there it is. The person considers himself part of this. Pretty logical.
The problems with national conflicts are so similar everywhere – a group of people declare that they have the exclusive right to set rules on a given piece of land. And they begin to come up with criteria for who belongs to the master’s nationality and who does not. This is why I’m wary of nationalism. It too quickly and easily takes on ugly forms, even to the point of measuring skulls and physically exterminating “undesirables.” I find that unionist ideas I like more (I avoid using the word “empire” or “imperial thinking” because it implies colonization and other nasty things). Unions, where nationality does not matter, but only contribution to the development of the country.
Tatyana, I think that to be a Russian one should usually have a connection with the land and culture of Russia. I have never been east of Venice, but from what I hear Russia embraces hundreds of ethnic groups and several religions. However they all seem to be loyal to Russia.
The parallel with the Jews breaks down, although of course the whole point of Israel was to give them a “homeland”. How justifiable it is to enter a country from afar, claiming that your ancestors lived there 2,000 years ago, and take it over completely? Had Palestine been unpopulated, that would have been different – but it certainly wasn’t.
The USA and Canada (and Australia and New Zealand) present the hardest cases. They broke, quite deliberately, with the immemorial tradition that a people inhabits a given country, and the combination forms a nation which is ruled by a state. Predicated on the assumption that the indigenous inhabitants were not fully human – and thus unqualified to have human rights – those new nations consisted purely of a mixture of immigrants.
Today there seems to be a powerful movement to make the “immigrants only” nation the ideal or only type of nation. (I gather that more than half of the population of London consists of first- or second-generation immigrants). But there are important holdouts such as China, India, Japan, and many other Asian and African countries. For those who have not studied history, it may be useful to point out that in the 19th century a dominant school of thought divided humanity into “races” or “peoples”, also known as “nations”. The theory was that every people should have its national territory – a view that was shared by such diverse men as Teddy Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, and Adolf Hitler.
Well, Russia is a huge piece of land with more than 190 ethnicities and about 90 regions, many with their own unique culture, religion, language and traditions. It’s just that you have one word, Russian, and we distinguish between Россиянин (citizen of the Russian Federation) and Русский (ethnicity). Russia is simply home for all of us. Well, like you are Euro-Union and we are Russo-Federation.
It’s hard for me to imagine what it’s like to live in a small mono-national state. I have seen examples of how this mono-nationality is achieved. Representatives of other nations are discriminated against, expelled or destroyed, this is how Ukraine acts and this is how Israel acts. I categorically do not accept this. Moreover, they do it based on some letters written down on paper, as if this matters more than human lives.
Hence I do not accept the priority of “law” over the wishes of the population, and hence I do not accept “rights to land” based on religious books. This is a very stupid approach.
The correct approach is to ask people what they think, and if you receive conflicting opinions, you need to find a compromise.
Thanks, Tatyana. I always appreciate whatever you explain about Russia, which is still rather mysterious to me in many ways.
I certainly meant Россиянин (citizen of the Russian Federation) rather than Русский (ethnicity).
But I most certainly am not “Euro-Union”! I voted for Brexit and would do so again today if asked. While I am very much in favour of international understanding and cooperation, I took the view that being under the oppressive thumb of one petty dictatorship run by fools (Westminster) is still better than being under the thumb of two of them in series (Westminster and Brussels). I feel that since Brexit sensible people may have been seeing more and more evidence in favour of my point of view.
I think of myself as a human being in a cosmopolitan way, not as any kind of chauvinist. Rather than “my country against yours” or “my religion against yours”, I feel aligned with the ordinary working people everywhere against corrupt rulers and profiteers. If you think that makes me sound like a Marxist, that’s fine – labels don’t matter. And anyway Marx was right about a lot of things.
Don’t forget that the Jews/Hebrews are in themselves latecomer invaders of Palestine in the late Bronze Age. The Old Testament itself says it (only maintains it was God who gifted the territory to them, contrary to all international law!). Palestine itself is older, its first known mention dates to the Middle Bronze Age, around 1700 BC, I think. It is reasonable to suppose that the inhabitants of this Bronze Age Palestine (in the texts Peleset) would have been called Palestinians.
Canaanites ? Who were cleansed by the Moses crowd ?
Possibly Philistines who lived on the coastal part of Canaan. Philistia built a commonwealth of five cities. There are genetic studies of ancient remains from the city of Ashkelon, Iron Age period. The study confirm that these are migrants from Southern Europe, most likely mixed with Canaanite women, since 43% of the material corresponds to Bronze Age Crete.
https://armstronginstitute.org/174-dna-study-shows-bible-correct-on-philistine-origins
I’m guilty of suspicion when church people try to use science to ‘Prove’ the bible stories. 🙂
Seems to run counter to the idea of faith not needing evidence.
Casual Observer
Well, for any system to be convincing (religion, sect, ideology, doctrine, marketing company, social movement, theory etc.), you build it on facts, more or less. Only then you add details that cannot be verified, like angels in burning bushes who advise you to go and populate a certain land 🙂
The Bible is a good source of historical knowledge about peoples, their languages, lands, cities, rulers, monuments, toponyms. Moreover, the information in this book was treated with extreme care, carefully preserving all the details to the maximum. The presented information also coincides with the works of ancient writers. Not every detail, of course, but if we find the same event described in different sources, then with a high degree of probability this took place in reality, right?
We studied this among other world religions in a university course, and I must say that I find the Old Testament to be outright nonsense. Imagine, hares classified as artiodactyls 🙂 It also openly justifies the greed of the clergy with detailed descriptions of the precious metals and stones given to the priests. Well, the image of a bloodthirsty god who chose Jews as his showcase, it reminds me of some kind of wild shamanic cult.
But the Gospel contains valuable humanistic ideas. In general, I believe that at that time religion replaced both state ideology and secular philosophy. If Christianity in its time served to create greater tolerance and mercy in people, then I am grateful for this service.
Half the comments in here would be regarded as racist if it were any other group that was being talked about.
Indeed so. Some dreadful anti-Palestinian (and hence anti-semitic) views on display from some here.
If that was true you would have highlighted some of them or even just one. The reality is there is but one instance of open racism in these comments. Namely, your proud assertion of anti-Palestinian racism in response to Jack above.