Every single state in the world has a positive duty to intervene to prevent the Genocide in Gaza now, not after a court has reached a determination of genocide. This is made crystal clear in para 431 of the International Court of Justice judgment in Bosnia vs Serbia:
This obviously does not mean that the obligation to prevent genocide only comes into being when perpetration of genocide commences ; that would be absurd, since the whole point of the obligation is to prevent, or attempt to prevent, the occurrence of the act. In fact, a State’s obligation to prevent, and the corresponding duty to act, arise at the instant that the State learns of, or should normally have learned of, the existence of a serious risk that genocide will be committed. From that moment onwards, if the State has available to it means likely to have a deterrent effect on those suspected of preparing genocide, or reasonably suspected of harbouring specific intent (dolus specialis), it is under a duty to make such use of these means as the circumstances permit.
This case was specifically on the application of the Genocide Convention. That the ICJ has ruled there is a positive duty on states to act to prevent genocide makes it even more astonishing to me that no state has invoked the Genocide Convention over the blatant genocide being committed by Israel in Gaza. Not least is it puzzling that this action has not been undertaken by Palestine itself, which is a party to the Convention and does have the ability to invoke it.
On Monday, I attended a surreal event at the United Nations in Geneva. It was part of the celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the Genocide Convention. It had been organised before the start of the current phase of the genocide of the Palestinians, and the subject was the suppression of incitement to genocide in the media and social media. It was formally a meeting of the UN Human Rights Council, but other states were also entitled to attend and to speak.
Delegates came and went, but over the course of the day approximately 60 nation states were present in the hall. Not all spoke, but enough did to give a feeling for the diplomatic dynamics.
I think this is best summed up by recounting the tale of two striking-looking women who spoke. The first was the delegate of Palestine, with notable long black hair, who spoke movingly of the current genocide in Gaza and the terrible destruction wrought upon tens of thousands of entirely innocent people, chiefly women and children.
Palestine was followed by the delegate representing Denmark, with equally notable long hair only this time very blonde, who said the government of Denmark was taking important concrete measures to prevent the incitement of genocide, including legislation to combat anti-semitism in social media. Two nations speaking entirely past each other.
And that was how the discussion went. Arab, African and South American states stressed the urgent need to stop the current genocide; developed nations stressed the need for states to control social media and counter “disinformation” and anti-semitism. The experts invited to join the discussion very much focused on Palestine – indeed that is where I got the reference to the precise passage from the ICJ judgment above.
None of which still explains why none of the pro-Palestinian states has fulfilled their duty and reported Israel under the Genocide Convention, thus triggering a determination by the International Court of Justice. This is particularly strange as several states have referred Israel to the International Criminal Court for war crimes.
Yet I have not found a single diplomat from any nation who disagrees with me when I say that this is a waste of time as the ICC is a western tool and will do nothing. I have not found a single diplomat who disagrees with me when I say that the ICJ is much better and a reference under the Genocide Convention is a far better route.
Yet still no political leader has taken it.
Fatah is influenced by two negative factors. The first is that it has become so immersed in the running of the Palestinian Authority it feels crippled by responsibility. Israel has already cut off the flow of funds to the Palestinian Authority which go to Gaza to pay 60,000 public sector workers there. The PA is worried about the potential to cut funding to the West Bank as well.
The ICJ already has a Palestinian case before it. On 19 February there are oral hearings on an advisory opinion for the UN General Assembly on the status of the Occupied Territories. Arguments are being made that it would not be helpful to introduce another case.
It is always possible to find arguments for not rocking the status quo. There is no doubt that there will be heavy pressure from the USA on the PA not to activate the Genocide Convention – not least because of the stark fact that “Genocide Joe” Biden should, on any rational view, be himself indicted for conspiracy or at least complicity.
I do not myself think that the Fatah leadership is consciously willing the destruction by Israel of Hamas, and certainly not at the cost of so much civilian life. But old resentments – and remember Hamas killed many Fatah people – may feed in to the process whereby frankly spurious arguments against activating the Genocide Convention are given undue weight. Many other nations which support Palestine supporters are not acting because it appears Abbas does not want them to act.
But there is something much more profound than that. This feels like a moment so shocking that the entire world is stupefied, not quite knowing how to act. An enormous rift has been exposed in international affairs. Previously, the developed nations had given lip service to the values of international organisations and to the basic concepts that move the UN, such as decolonisation, human rights and conflict resolution.
Suddenly, not only is genocide occurring with a scale and rapidity that is simply stunning – in six weeks in Gaza ten times the number of children have been killed as in two years of war in Ukraine – but the western nations are roaring on a racial extermination that dehumanises its victims. The western political class are systematically silencing internal opposition, and promoting blatant White Power marches thinly disguised as against anti-semitism.
Every developing and Arab state who spoke at the UN session on Monday described Israel in terms of colonial occupation. That is a real shift to plain speaking.
The world has been jolted, suddenly. Masks have been ripped off. Almost the entire political Establishment of the West have outed themselves as enthusiastic proponents of a racial supremacism, prepared to give active assistance to a genocide of indigenous people.
There really is no way to face up to the Genocide in Gaza without facing up to the active support of Biden, von der Leyen, Sunak and most western political leaderships – including both Labour and Conservatives in the UK. We also have to face the complicity of Karim Khan and a number of other western stooges operating at senior levels within international institutions. Where the World goes from here, in the face of the raw racial hatred and enthusiasm for the killing of babies that has been revealed by those in power, is very difficult for people to come to reckon.
I know we have been here before, with the invasion of Iraq and numerous other instances of brutal abuse of power on the world stage. But this has a different feel. I am trying to understand why. Possibly because the balance of power in the world has swung considerably. Possibly because social media enables more people, particularly the young, to see the truth. I do not fully understand why; but this feels very different, momentous.
Almost all of the nations that have been utterly appalled by the actions of the US, UK and EU over Gaza, are to some extent dependent on “aid” flows from those sources. It is also worth noting, at this crucial time, the failure of China to provide any kind of leadership. I have previously praised China’s singular lack of interest in expansion or in meddling overseas, as compared to the fading and ultra-aggressive US hegemon. But China’s narrow definition of its interests is not helpful where there is an overwhelming need for China to throw its weight into the balance for the sake of humanity.
Everybody is failing the Palestinians. Even you and me. None of us are doing enough. I have struggled to get this article right, and there are perhaps six hours of work in it, in addition probably to another eighteen hours in various meetings on the subject trying to get things moving diplomatically. In those hours, 140 Palestinian children will have been killed by Israel and 300 maimed. Is there anybody reading this who really is doing enough to halt so great an evil? How do we avoid feeling trapped by frustration, helplessness and overwhelming sorrow?
“It’s quite clear to anyone with half a brain that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza as we speak.”
—Roger Waters
🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸pic.twitter.com/c23OPhmrHI
— sarah (@sahouraxo) December 5, 2023
I am sorry I cannot immediately find more answers. But let us all work harder, wherever we are, to do our little bit for peace.
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“That the ICJ has ruled there is a positive duty on states to act to prevent genocide makes it even more astonishing to me that no state has invoked the Genocide Convention over the blatant genocide being committed by Israel in Gaza”.
Most governments are part of the conspiracy to suck up to Israel and pretend – as the Zionists have always done – that no Palestinians exist. Remember, “a country without people for a people without a country”? Those few governments that aren’t intimidated or self-interested are probably disillusioned.
“Not least is it puzzling that this action has not been undertaken by Palestine itself, which is a party to the Convention and does have the ability to invoke it”.
I expect the Palestinians are well aware that the UN, its many baroque excrescences, and all the ridiculous “international courts” have no real power whatsoever. They might as well invoke the Batsignal.
“None of which stil explains why none of the pro-Palestinian states has fulfilled their duty and reported Israel under the Genocide Convention, thus triggering a determination by the International Court of Justice. This is particularly strange as several states have referred Israel to the International Criminal Court for war crimes”.
And what significant action has the ICC ever taken in response? Everyone knows that it exists purely and simply to give a veneer of respectability to the imprisonment or murder of people whom the US government wants to be rid of. No one at the ICC gives a monkey’s bum about the Palestinians.
As always, the Melian Dialogue holds good. “[Y]ou know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”.
The ICC and other courts of law, tribunals, etc. deal exclusively in amtters of “right”. But between parties of vastly different real power, matters of “right” are pure vapour. Like Bentham’s description of “imprescriptable natural rights”, they are nonsense upon stilts.
When you write “Most governments are part of the conspiracy to suck up to Israel…” You are, I think, mistaken. The opposite is true, although dwelling within a western state with a Islamophobic western press it is an understandable misconception.
“In the 193-nation assembly’s most recent anti-Israel resolution Friday, it approved a call for the International Court of Justice to weigh in on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The resolution promoted by the Palestinians passed by a vote of 87 in favor, 26 against, with 53 abstentions.”
Times of Israel 3rd Januaey 2023
Mike, I very much hope I am mistaken. But the devil is in the details. Nothing will stop the Israelis short of armed force (and a lot of it) – which would be unwise when they have nuclear weapons and chutzpah, a bad combination – or overwhelming economic and financial pressure.
The Americans could stop it almost overnight, which is good. But they won’t, which is bad. They won’t because they believe that Israel is doing their work for them. (And a good proportion of them are demented enough to think that by supporting Israel they will get a free ride to Heaven. My greatest sorrow is that they will never know how wrong they are about that).
I find it revealing that Mr Murray laments China’s “inaction”. We are all against big countries throwing their weight around against people of whom we approve, but even Mr Murray cannot resist wishing that China would “do something”.
What exactly would that be? Bearing in mind that any effective action against Israel would be tantamount to declaring war on the USA, the UK, the EU, and NATO. Non-aggression is like freedom of speech and virginity; you either practise it or you don’t. China does.
Resolutions and “condemnations” mean nothing. I am sure a majority of the UN could be persuaded to vote that Israel be exorcised by the Pope – if they were quite sure it would have no effect.
Let us hope that they are right about there being life after death, so that they will be taught just how wrong they have been in terms of morality.
Mike, do you know how many resolutions the UN has passed since 1948 telling Israel to do, or to stop doing, various things?
And do you know how many times Israel has complied?
Thanks for the reply Tom.
Regrettably, I do.
Israel has been a key factor in shoving the United Nations, an organisation which delivered so much hope to my generation, down the same path as the League of Nations. GC resolutions are a diplomatic statement of world opinion, and valid for that: but the military giant at the SC has the final say, and the President will do whatever is needed for a quiet life. I believe it was Truman in ’48 that told of of his surprise at the power and extent of Israeli lobbying.
Right now, we all, including our host it seems, are utterly frustrated by our collective lack of real influence and casting around for allies. I don’t think there are any that can help in the short term. The extent of the slaughter depends on Biden, almost exclusively. How much long term damage is he willing to inflict on the USA for the sake of the short term gains derived from not infuriating US public opinion?
Quite a lot, would (despairingly) be my guess.
Oh, I just noticed that there are two foolish fanciful things, not one: ICC and ICJ.
You say tomayto and I say tomahto.
Craig’s whole point is based on the difference between the ICC and the ICJ. It’s not an irrelevance.
It’s not an irrelevance if and only if the ICJ has teeth. But it doesn’t. Please explain how the ICJ, whatever it does, could change what Israel does.
Quite recently – I think I saw a report today – some UN “rapporteur” for something or other said clearly that what the Israelis are doing in Gaza is wrong and should stop. That’s nice, but nobody cares. Or at any rate no one who matters.
There is a clear partition in public life. On one side, those who are prepared publicly to criticise Israel and ask it to stop its genocide. On the other side, those who have actual power to make that happen.
They have no members in common.
Things happen slowly, not fast as you (and I) would like. But as Ilan Pappe says, a fundamental shift in attitudes towards Israel is taking place. As there is so much resistance, it’s bound to be slow.
Many many people have radically changed their conceptualisation of the `1948′ State of Israel from a UN recognised body, accorded due respect within its original borders to a colonial state with the same right to exist as Rhodesia. Your comment that “Every developing and Arab state who spoke at the UN session on Monday described Israel in terms of colonial occupation. That is a real shift to plain speaking. ”
I would suggest this is the key. Once that perception of legitimacy is reversed, it isn’t coming back. There will be no change in my remaining years, but the same is true of for my children’s generation. For Israel, there is no coming back. They have committed themselves and their ‘Five’ Eyes allies to an existential conflict of indefinate duration.
This genocide is organised by US and UK, and executed (all too willingly) by Israel. So stopping it means stopping the US. And US empire is a bit like its ‘auto-propelled’ President: foolish and dying. Nobody dares to come too close to a man drowning under his contradictions, especially when he has nukes.
There is no way to stop US and UK, except by armed intervention. No head of state has found a reason to justify that his citizens should die so Palestinians can live, so the killing goes on and on and on – until the US runs out of bombs of IDF out of soldiers.
The tail is wagging the dog, not the dog its tail.
Ah – but which is the dog? 😎
I find it hard to believe you’re serious if you think Israel is the dog, and the USA the tail.
Think it through. The dog and the tail – which makes the decisions?
Of course, one must bear in mind that a very great deal of what people think of as “the USA” is in fact Israel. Hollywood, for example. The rest of the media. Much of Washington. And so on.
According to the Israeli government, every living Jew in the world is entitled to Israeli citizenship. One interpretation is that they automatically have it, so their first loyalty must be to Israel.
Now check off everyone who matters in the US government.
Tom Welsh
That is the point of the saying.
Fear of being the first to put their head above the parapet and say what they see rather than simply go along with the US. And in the US the fear of losing contributions from the ultra nationalist Christians who actively want Armageddon in Israel.
The tail wags the dog because the tail has money.
The general public are sickened across the world and their governments simply ignore them.
Different this time than even a few years ago because the generation that grew up with smart phones are both documenting every inhumanity and watching it from afar. The same people march to protest against them. Truth is democratized but not yet the power to do anything. But that generation will soon gain power. I have hope for the future but for now I have little..
Thank you for your comments, which I more than agree with. Thank you very much. You made my day.
Is there really no legal possibility for individual citizens or civil society movements to do something to set the machinery in motion?
Zack, it depends on what “machinery” you have in mind. It might be practical to start at the other end of the chain, and ask yourself what sort of machinery could possibly force Israel to stop killing Palestinians.
We know that nothing that happens at the UN could do that.
No amount of global disapproval or criticism could do that.
No diplomatic moves have been able to do that so far. Maybe the USA, China, or Russia could come up with threats that would do the job. But are any of them willing to be accused of being Hitler’s successors, anti-semites, planning to exterminate the world’s Jews? (Which they would be accused of).
Perhaps appropriate trade sanctions – supreme irony – would actually work in the case of Israel. Any ideas how to get that started?
Starmer, travelling to Glasgow today to attend a Labour dinner, challenged on the train by a brave member of the public
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkupNwmxT4c
Brave man indeed. Heart-warming to watch. He sets an example for all of us.
At least Starmer did go on the train, not on a private flight as a tory would, and did sit in public, allowing access to the member of the public. Not that that would change his policy – he’s under control of the Mossad, with an agent sitting in his private office. He couldn’t change policy even if he wanted to.
It’s not just Starmer. The entire hard right and centre of his Labour Party are pro-apartheid and pro-genocide. You could profess total neoliberal ideological fellowship with them and they would still reject and scorn you as an antisemitic terrorist supporter.
It’s not just the Labour Party. Most of the people who run Whitehall and Westminster are still quite proud of the British Empire, and nurse secret nostalgia for the days when the “civilised white races” controlled and dictated to the “backward” peoples of the world.
Not to mention the openly admitted pride in the fire-bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo and many other German and Japanese cities, and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Which were perpetrated for very much the same reasons that motivate the Israelis in their current attempts at genocide.
Are people who stoutly maintain the rightness of those acts going to worry about a mere couple of million brown Muslims? Especially 20 years after “the West” killed at least 3 million similar people in Iraq, with hardly a squeak of protest from anyone?
Around 400,000 Iraqis are estimated to have been killed in the Iraq War, Tom, mostly due to sectarian violence – and a further 50,000 or so during Operation Inherent Resolve. If most of the people who run Westminster & Whitehall harbour a secret nostalgia for the days when ‘civilised’ white races controlled ‘backward’ peoples (which I doubt), then at least they’re smart enough not to post comments supporting the chattel slavery of (mostly) black & brown people in the antebellum Southern US states on fairly popular blogs under (presumably) their real names.
Lapsed Agnostic, I refer you to “Genocide in Iraq: The Case Against the UN Security Council and Member States” (2 volumes, 2012 and 2015) by Dr. Abdul-Haq al-Ani and Tarik al-Ani. Other reliable sources (none of them Western, naturally) agree substantially.
https://www.transcend.org/tms/2014/09/usauk-committed-genocide-against-iraq-people/
http://www.counterpunch.org/benjamin03182011.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/13/falluja-cancer-children-birth-defects
https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/22/the-sociocide-of-iraq-by-bushcheney-2/
You write, “Around 400,000 Iraqis are estimated to have been killed in the Iraq War, Tom, mostly due to sectarian violence – and a further 50,000 or so during Operation Inherent Resolve”.
What are your sources? How do you know that the deaths were “mostly due to sectarian violence”? (And what could have caused that sectarian violence?)
Do your “400,000” Iraqi deaths include the 500,000 children to whose deaths Madeleine Albright admitted on public TV?
Do you feel that, even if “only” 400,000 Iraqi people had been killed, that would be OK?
“…at least they’re smart enough not to post comments supporting the chattel slavery of (mostly) black & brown people in the antebellum Southern US states on fairly popular blogs under (presumably) their real names”.
As you know, LA, that is a grotesque distortion of what I wrote some time ago on another topic. The issues of slavery and the “American Civil War” are quite complex, as I learned when I spent several months studying them as part of my undergraduate course at Cambridge in 1968.
At least I have the moral courage to post under my own name, because I am not ashamed of what I write. I stand by everything I have written. If I am ever shown to have been wrong, I apologise and am grateful for having been enlightened.
You’re a Cambridge history man, Tom. That does not surprise me.
Did your tutors include the great J. R. Pole?
I’m afraid not, U Watt. I don’t even recollect hearing of him. Although I see that “Political Representation in England and the Origins of the America Republic” was published the year I went up – on second thoughts, that title rings a bell. I expect I did read it, but it’s been a while.
But then I wasn’t exactly a career historian – far too interested in the truth, and not nearly forensic enough. When I graduated I spent a couple of years reading, then took a course in computing and went that way.
I once sat next to Kitson Clark, and found him very interesting. I was tutored by Peter Laslett, Professor Ullmann, and (I think) John Dunn. Anil Seal, Mrs Bowker… The lecturer who impressed me most was Quentin Skinner – quite brilliant.
How about you?
I did a history PhD there in the 90s. A couple of friends of mine were heavily into intellectual history and loved Quentin Skinner. I was persuaded along to a talk of his one evening. Very much above my head in those days but the great man came on the lash with us afterwards. I will never forget seeing him urinating against a college wall!
I taught history for a spell, including up in Scotland at St Andrews but have been a private tutor in London for many years now.
Jack Pole was a pioneer of American history in Britain but may have moved on from Cambridge by your time.
Thanks for your reply Tom, and thanks for supplying references – not something you usually do. Here’s a (fairly credible) source for the 400,000 figure:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1001533
The vast majority of violent deaths came about after the initial invasion, and were due to sectarian violence and coalition troops trying to supress it. The sectarianism was caused by the breakdown of government and the call by al Qaeda etc for Sunnis to engage in holy war against the Shia and the US in Iraq. Obviously the figure doesn’t include the 500,000 Iraqi children estimated to have died due to sanctions prior to 2003, but you referred to ’20 years’ ago, i.e. the start of the Iraq War. Of course I don’t believe it was OK because, as I’ve stated on here previously, I was never a supporter of the Iraq War.
As I recall, you wrote that the Northern states were wrong to invade the Southern states to end chattel slavery after they unilaterally seceded, even though the reason that the American Civil War started was because the Confederates shelled Fort Sumter – and indeed chattel slavery in some Northern states was allowed to persist until the end of 1865, when the 13th Amendment came into force. As with many things, the Civil War was more complex and consequential than many people think. For example, the highly significant 14th Amendment to the US Constitution – something you’ve stated in a previous comment that you ‘neither know nor care about’ despite your study at Oxbridge – came about as a direct result of it.
As for my moral courage: You’ll be coming towards the end of your life, whereas I’m still in early middle age. When you were my age, you could openly support Sinn Fein without fear of arrest, even though the Provisional IRA had been responsible for hundreds of murders of UK citizens (including some in England). We are now living in a country where women can be charged under terrorism legislation for merely going on a demonstration and displaying silhouettes of paragliders on their person – a reference to something that happened thousands of miles away, with only a handful of UK citizens involved. I would rather not go on any lists if at all possible – plus forum rules state I’m not allowed to change my name.
Enjoy the weekend.
Don’t sweat it. You’re among the last people the British state would have on any list.
Thanks for your reply U Watt, and for your concern trolling. I’m probably wise to be cautious though: I may not entirely adhere to the Russia = good / Ukraine = bad house rules, but, amongst other things, how many people on here have been drawing people’s attention to what was going on in Operation Inherent Resolve – during which elements of the British armed forces were doing far worse than they’re currently doing over Gaza? One person, as far as I know: me. I don’t imagine the British security services are too enamoured about that.
Enjoy the weekend.
” I may not entirely adhere to the Russia = good / Ukraine = bad house rules, ”
That’s cheap, implying as it does, that those of us who push back against rampant russophobia are somehow doing it to suck up to our host by obeying his “house rules”. This isn’t the Grauniad, you know.
Britain is participating right now in a genocide of Palestinians. Not least because a racist, colonialist mindset pervades Westminster and Whitehall.
You’re trying to divert attention away from that.
Thanks for your reply U Watt. Britain is not participating in a genocide in Gaza – it’s providing advice and assistance to the Israelis on potential hostage extractions. I would say that, seeing as most of them live in London, the average person working in Whitehall or Westminster is less racist than the average Briton – who is considerably less racist than the average continental European.
I’m not trying to divert attention from the plight of the Gazan people, just to put things in a bit of context. What is the difference between a Palestinian child trapped under rubble and dying of thirst in Gaza, and a Syrian child trapped under rubble and dying of thirst in Raqqa? Well, one difference is that there’s about a 20% chance that UK taxpayers would have paid for the latter to happen. I’m aware that most people don’t like talking about these things, but can I enquire as to how much, if any, tax you paid to the UK exchequer between 2014 & 2018 inclusive?
“it’s providing advice and assistance to the Israelis on potential hostage extraction”
That’s what they say they are doing and that’s what they would say. Perhaps you can give a reason why they might be telling the truth for once.
Thanks for your reply Bayard. UK SOF will not be in Gaza because there’s no need for them to be there, and it would be highly embarrassing if one or more of them were to be killed or captured. Remember all those rumours last year about scores of Western operatives held up in the Azovstal plant in Mariupol. What happened to them?
Starmer flew to the cop-out hot air meeting in Qatar. He is no example to anyone. He is genocidally challenged.
Just look at why Julian Assange is incarcerated; he is guilty of inhumanity perse.
“Starmer flew to the cop-out hot air meeting in Qatar. ”
Thanks for that comment, it gave me a picture of Starver keeping himself aloft in a balloon with his own hot air.
The murderous zionist regime, which is pursuing and imprisoning its own population for daring to voice their opinion for peace and a cease fire, has today attacked and bombed its Arab neighbours and Hezbollah, because it can.
They have got away with most of the western world shutting their eyes to the genocide and are now smarting to widen the conflict by goading those who once gave them a good seeing to, BUT, who are currently not attacking this mad dog Zionist gang.
civilians are stripped and taken away in northern Gaza, with no destination revealed, will they be shot? ending up; mass graves?
The world is quiet and children are dying, some 7000 plus sofar.
Shame on the US,UK and Germany, as well as most of Europes member countries, shame on all of you you cowards, with this conflicting madness you have you have trashed everything you created and held dear, the UN is a hollow edifice that has had all its rights and legitimate obligation sucked out of them.
Hezbollah as an elected part of Lebanese society has the right to self defense.
“Shame on the US,UK and Germany, as well as most of Europes member countries, shame on all of you you cowards…”
I don’t think it’s quite so simple. The people who make and execute policy in the West are not cowards (at least they may be, but it’s not to the point). They act in accordance with their perceived personal interests and those of their sponsors and allies.
The great majority of Western citizens may or may not be cowardly, but again it makes no difference. No one is paying any attention to them anyway. Even if there were an election in, say, the UK tomorrow, which parties or candidates would one vote for in the sure knowledge that they would intervene in Israel?
There aren’t any.
One should know that ICJ is producing non-binding conclusions while ICC conclusions is binding, right?
“Everybody is failing the Palestinians. Even you and me. None of us are doing enough.”
This^^, I feel that every day that pass with hundreds more palestinian killed, I, we, the world threw the palestinians under the bus, or rather, the israeli tank once again. I do not what to do.
Protesting in the streets seems to accomplish nothing.
Writing email to political party members seems to accomplish nothing.
Write letter to the editor seems to accomplish nothing.
Arguing on social media with pro-israelis seems to accomplish nothing
I do not what to do.
There are so many safety-nets that have failed, if the west are failing, one thought the Palestinian Authority wouid act or the arab world would act, but they too do nothing. And that goes for other non-western states too. Russia, China, whole of Africa, South Africa! Total silence more or less!
Iran FM urges Egypt to unconditionally open Rafah crossing to allow Gazans access to basic needs
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/12/07/715944/Iran-Egypt-Gaza-Rafah-border-crossing-Amir-Abdollahian-medicine-fuel
If Egypt do not want to let millions palestinians in, as crass as that is, ok, but why upholding the blockade on exporting humanitarian stuff to Gaza!?
I rather see and encourage that Egypt and other arab enablers of the genocide openly declare their support for Israel rather than this deceitful stance on palestinians. Enough of this treachery.
There is no International Law, only naive people believe in such a quaint expression, It is now called ‘the rules based order’ the US write the rules which can change to suit any geopolitical event anywhere in the world, then the whole of the ‘west’ goes along with it..OR ELSE
Because the US is the self appointed leader of the free world and it is ‘exceptional,’ ‘the shining city on a hill’ and the ‘indispensable nation’ and all that crap. On the other hand Israel is a tiny postage sized state with most of its population and Industry in the approx 52 sq miles of metropolitan Tel Aviv. Nazrallah describes Israel as weaker than a spiders web, He has also said Hezbollah will not allow the defeat of Hamas or the destruction/obliteration of the Palestinians in Gaza. He is usually a man of his word, we shall see.
Other settler colonial situations have resulted in the settlers winning as in the case of the colonization of America and australia because they were stronger, or losing because the indigenous population is stronger, then it will fail. In my opinion Hezbollah and the other members of the .arc of resistance have the precision missiles and technological means to make israel unviable, in just the way the US armed ISIS and Al-Qaeda in Syria [although the US said they were ‘moderate entities] so Iran can do the same with their proxies although the US will blame Iran whatever Iran does. Unfortunately it is the only way or, as Bismarck said, ‘Iron and blood’ always solve the big issues between states.Mao had his own philosophy ‘power grows out the barrel of a gun’. Whatever happens many more people will die until this racist abomination called Israel is defeated.
There is international law. However, like any law, it needs to be both consented to and actively enforced. The US has always rejected any attempt to regulate its behaviour and has from the start (with the support of its whipped in allies) sought to undermine international law. It has both ignored and broken international law with impunity (while invoking it against those it calls “enemies” – to its global domination) and sought to replace it with “rules” which it concocts to favour its interests and punish those who oppose them. We would all be better off if the international rule of law was respected and enforced, but post the illegal Iraq war the mask was ripped off and we now all know which Boss rules.
“There is international law.”
True, but it is international, that is between states, not supranational, above states. International law is only binding on states that agree to be bound by it. The US and Israel are not amongst them. The US is very keen on other states agreeing to be bound by it and, to a certain extent, they make it supranational by enforcing its requirements on these other states. However, even then it is not really supranational law, it’s really just an exporting of US law as applied to other countries.
This stands out to me:
“Everybody is failing the Palestinians. Even you and me. None of us are doing enough.”
Absolutely certain I am going to get absolutely pilloried for this, but here goes.
At what point will anybody be prepared to call for Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza to cease fire, drop their weapons, come out hands up, bringing the hostages with them?
In other words, accept the overwhelming military supremacy of the IDF and give up, in the interests of the innocent Palestinian non-combatants.
And yes, I expect and acknowledge that the Israelis will put away the Palestinian fighters, probably for life, and that’s probably the least they will do too. But some negotiated deal, sparing most of them their lives, should be possible through a neutral third party.
I can’t help noticing that for all the concern over women and children, and the Gazan innocents, nobody ever calls for the realpolitik solution that would stop this in its tracks. Nobody ever accepts that maybes the way to end the fighting and the casualties is for the side that is destined to take the vast majority of the casualties to stop fighting.
Cue pelters.
John.
You sound like the Western media who think that the Israeli army is unbeatable.
Have you ever heard the phrase “All the gear and no idea”?
The vast majority of the Israeli Army is made up of ‘Get some Inners’ almost the equivalent of the British Territorial Army.
They are ill disciplined and either scared or cocky.
For example you do not go wandering down Gazan streets in a group of 8 tanks all pointing in the same direction. Tanks are not exactly manoeuvrable vehicles.
So, all Hamas have to do is disable the tanks – the naïve crew jump out and they are picked off by Hamas.
The fact is that the Israeli Conscripts are extremely naive in the art of Guerilla Warfare and this is why Hezbollah scare the crap out of them. Hezbollah have had plenty of practice in this type of warfare in Syria (against the West’s terrorist affiliates: they are all parked up in Idlib at the moment for further use when required) and are a hard-bitten tested group of fighters similar to the Wagner Group.
The West utterly overrates Israel’s capabilities due to them having nukes (unofficially they don’t have nukes, and unofficially Iran doesn’t have any either – wink, wink).
My view is that Netanyahu will do anything in order to stay out of jail, and part of his and his lunatic mates’ plan is to goad Hezbollah and Southern Lebanon into expanding this into a regional war in order to get more backing from the US.
But the Israelis had better beware, as the nation that legged it from Afghanistan and are doing a polite withdrawal from Ukraine will be fairly happy to drop Israel in the shit if this (so-called) war damages their interests in the region.
The US has form on this over the years.
By the way the British should know this also.
I’m not convinced that the US told the British that they were leaving Afghanistan on a certain date.
But maybe that is a Conspiracy Theory.
My view is ( to coin a Yank phrase ) is that ” Israel ain’t all that .”
So …
Keep on fighting then, until that indefinite day in the future when the IDF is “defeated” by them giving up.
Fine, but I thought the objective was to stop the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children and the infrastructure destruction. Stop the “genocide” in other words.
We do need to be clear and honest about this. Hamas welcomes the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children, because they are fighting a public relations battle, probably more than they are fighting a military one.
You, probably without realising it, are tacitly supporting their strategy.
Israel has decided on the genocide of the Palestinians; so there’s not much point in surrendering, is there? No future for them is on offer.
“Fine, but I thought the objective was to stop the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children”
Why would you assume that the genocide would stop if Hamas is defeated? Hamas is an obstacle to Israel completing its present government’s stated plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
This is not just the State of Israel, this is the M & S funded State of Israel. Now there’s good PR for you.
By definition, some of the Sieff family donations will probably be spent on armaments. ‘You, probably without realising it, are tacitly supporting’ the deaths of women and children.
True no doubt; but the same holds good for all UK (and US and EU) taxpayers.
John, in your suggested dream of Hamas giving up and going to jail forever, what do you endeavour for the vast majority of Palestinians to happen?
Will they get back their rights to land, property, the harvest they grew, the taxes they pay and the Budget they decide to spend on what they want? And can they reject the PA that so dismally failed them in an election? Anything short of a rules-based Balfour order backed up in Law and a common Constitution for all that inhabit Palestine, will just postpone the future and lead to more undermining of newly-created institutions.
We all have seen how the Zionists have undermined international institutions such as the UN, courts and laws they feel superior to, rather than to join in.
When they feel forever bound to obstruct what the rest of the world had adhered to, just to establish their now visible superior self, when they feel that they are the chosen ones that everyone else should copy and adhere to, then we really are at the end of time.
I fear for my grandchildren’s future, because they have no voice.
But don’t hesitate to give us your gist of an embellished Palestine that has had its balls ripped out.
Your comment reminds me of a passage I read recently, John. See if it sounds at all familiar.
“Venturing back into the village the next day, the mukhtar beheld with horror the piles of dead bodies in the mosque – with many more strewn about in the street – men, women and children, among them his own father. When he went to the cave, he found the entrance blocked by dozens of corpses. The count the mukhtar carried out told him that 455 people were missing, among them about 170 children and women.
“The Jewish soldiers who took part in the massacre also reported horrific scenes: babies whose skulls were cracked open, women raped or burned alive in houses and men stabbed to death. These were not reports delivered years later, but eye-witness accounts sent to the High Command within a few days of the event”.
[Ilan Pappe, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”, p.197. This massacre took place in the village of Dawaymeh on 28 October 1948. To be perfectly clear, all the violence they reported was carried out by their own colleagues in the newly-formed Israeli armed forces. The massacre was completely unprovoked – unless you consider, as they evidently did, the mere existence of Palestinian people living peacefully in their own homes to be unbearably provocative].
What point are you saying that leads to? Ten years prior was the Dersim massacre where Turks bombed Kurdish towns and pursued families from town to mountain, burning them in caves or throwing them off cliffs. Some kids were shot in the head (per modern forensic analysis of mass graves). Apparently they then shaved the heads of surviving kids and transferred them to the families of soldiers to be raised as Arab Turks. Then renamed the province Tunceli, and it’s still under military patrols, though the Kurdish still call it Dersim, including the football team Dersimspor.
Is not the realpolitik solution the ending of Palestine as an Occupied Territory, recognising Palestine as a sovereign state, removing all the road blocks and checkpoints in doing so, releasing all the Palestinian prisoners from Israeli gaols, not least the children kept captive there in ways that we do not tolerate in this country, removing the need for huge numbers of people to live in refugee camps in their own country, giving the Palestinian people living in squalid refugee camps elsewhere the right to return to their homes, stop making Palestine as some kind of charity case by supporting proper economic development, returning the Golan Heights and other occupied areas to Syria and others where they belong, preventing Israel bombing other countries with impunity and letting the Palestinian people decide their own destiny? When all these and many other conditions are met, is it possible to argue that Hamas giving up the hostages and their arms is a “solution”.
So …
Keep on fighting then, until that indefinite day in the future when the IDF is “defeated” by them giving up. With a side order of 9.5 million Israeli Jews to become stateless refugees in a hostile world.
And that’s your idea of “realpolitik”? I beg you, keep to posting on blogs.
I thought the objective was to stop the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children and the infrastructure destruction. Stop the “genocide” in other words.
Virtually without exception, posters on here want an asymmetrical solution to the war, in which Israel stops shooting and gives up. I’m pointing out that an equally valid solution is for Hamas to stop shooting and give up.
People do need to make up their minds about their priorities. If you believe there’s a genocide going on, you do what it takes to stop it, and that includes unconditional surrender.
Israel will be forced to stop pretty soon anyway. If the reservists are not demobilised soon, the economy will self-destruct.
John Main, please read some history and then you will be less prejudiced. There is a strong asymmetry, but it is in the opposite direction. The Zionists descended on Palestine, stole almost all the land and other property, and killed tens of thousands (or more) of Palestinians. They are the ones who committed the original crime, and it is wrong to blame the Palestinians for doing what they can to resist.
I suggest, for a start:
• Ilan Pappe, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”
• Uri Avnery, “1948”
• Jonathan Cook, “Blood and Religion”
• Michael Neumann, “The Case against Israel”
• Greg Phil and Mike Barry, “Bad News from Israel”
• Gilad Atzmon, “The Wandering Who?”
• Shlomo Sand, “The Invention of the Jewish People”
• Norman Finkelstein, “The Holocaust Industry”
At the moment your comments read like the almost undiluted output of the Zionist propaganda mills.
From Pappe:
”Within twenty-nine hours of the end of the Mandate, almost all the villages in the north-western districts of the Galilee – all within the designated Arab state – had been destroyed, allowing a satisfied Ben-Gurion to announce to the newly assembled parliament: ‘The Western Galilee has been liberated’ (some of the villages north of Haifa were actually only occupied later). In other words, it took Jewish troops just over a day to turn a district with a population that was ninety-six per cent Palestinian and only four per cent Jewish – with a similar ratio of land ownership – into an area almost exclusively Jewish”.
What John is saying in effect is that Might is Right.
For the record, there are just over 7 million Jewish citizens of Israel, not 9.5 million as you claim; and an estimated 10% of them have dual nationality.
That would have no effect whatsoever.
Israel is not at war with Hamas, it is at war with Palestine. It has been so for 75 years. It is not killing Hamas, it is murdering the inhabitants, mostly women and children, and aims to push the survivors out of the country. Hamas with its partners is the only organisation offering any resistance. Most of the world is now aware that they are witnessing an extraordinary act of genocide about which, as Craig notes, their leaders are doing nothing, and if you think about it hard and long enough, you will come to realise it too.
So …
Keep on fighting then, until that indefinite day in the future when the IDF is “defeated” by them giving up.
Fine, but I thought the objective was to stop the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children and the infrastructure destruction. Stop the “genocide” in other words.
Obviously you’re all out of ideas, and you’ve closed your mind to any new ones.
Israel is not able to continue ‘indefinitely’, as you claim. They’re under pressure to finish.
I ‘m sorry, I forgot that Israel promised, if Hamas surrenders, to stop murdering Palestinians, stop locking them up without trial, to create a unified state in which everyone has equal rights, that Gaza will be rebuilt, its population rehoused, and the land stolen from its neighbours will be returned. How did that slip my mind?
By the way, I was up near the border of Guangdong and Hunan last Sunday, saw a nice little bridge there, going very cheap, I could arrange a purchase for you, for a small commission.
Yes, that’s exactly the point Walt. In other words, John, how about BN/Israel saying that if they ceasefire and promise to Free Palestine and rebuild Gaza etc, etc, etc, will Hamas et al agree to live in peace with Israel. Of course they would. And that of course is the alternative option to your suggestion/solution John.
And just to add the following: We know for a fact that the IDF killed around two hundred Hamas fighters who were burnt beyond recognition, so it’s quite likely that they killed literally hundreds of Israelis in the first day or two. And I see the number of Israelis officially killed has gone down yet again by another fifty or so to 1,147???
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
Again, why should we assume that Israel will stop its genocide if Hamas surrenders?
It’s also extremely silly to assume that if the evil, genocidal, zionist Israelis achieve their objective of taking control of all of Palestine that there would be peace in the middle east. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan would be next on the list and not forgetting Iran.
If peace in the ME is the objective then israel in its current form must be destroyed.
‘On 24 May [1948], after Ben-Gurion had met with his advisers, in his diary entry he sounds triumphant and more power-hungry than ever before:
‘“We will establish a Christian state in Lebanon, the southern border of which will be the Litani river. We will break Transjordan, bomb Amman and destroy its army, and then Syria falls, and if Egypt will still continue to fight – we will bombard Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo. This will be in revenge for what they (the Egyptians, the Aramis and Assyrians) did to our forefathers during Biblical times”’.
— Ilan Pappe, “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”, page 144.
Actually such plans had been envisaged ever since the late 19th century. The Zionists were perfectly clear – and explicit – right from the start of their movement that the Jewish state they wanted to establish would have no room for any Gentile citizens of any kind. Also, it was expected to expand to the full dimensions of “Greater Israel” – from the Nile to the Euphrates, including all of present-day Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, and some of Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
Perhaps amusingly, Ben-Gurion later denounced his colleague Menachem Begin for being “nothing more than a terrorist”.
Tom. Re. “We will establish a Christian state in Lebanon …”
An observation. As we know, Israelis/Jews are not Christians or fanboys of Jesus, so is this a misquote or is this just an anti Islam statement. !
Stevie Boy, the reference to “a Christian state in Lebanon” is correct. It’s exactly what Ben-Gurion wrote.
Of course I cannot guess exactly what his intentions were, but I doubt if they were particularly benevolent. As you will be aware, the historical record of Christians is not unblemished. Muslims still remember the 2,700 helpless prisoners slaughtered at Jerusalem in 1191 on the orders of King Richard I of England, “Coeur de Lion”. The total number of people deliberately and cynically killed by Christians throughout the course of history must be appalling.
More recently, there were the massacres of helpless civilians at Sabra and Shatila, largely by Christian Lebanese militias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
No doubt Ben-Gurion had plans for the Lebanese Christians to assist in the Zionist strategy before, in due course, they too would have been “moved on” to somewhere in this world or the next.
In 1982, when Israel was heavily bombing Beirut, the same solution was proposed.
Why don’t the PLO come out with their hands up, and agree to evacuate the city? Their lives could be spared, and a neutral third party could guarantee the lives of the Palestinian civilians. The Israelis maintained that they only required the removal of the PLO – a “cancer” in Lebanon.
Eventually, and after countless civilian deaths, the PLO agreed to leave. The US guaranteed the safety of the Palestinians in the camps, whom they had been guarding. So – a solution. But, it wasn’t. The Israelis then invaded Beirut, and a terrible series of massacres began. They also occupied the south of Lebanon, with endless human rights abuses, for 20 years, until Hezbollah kicked them out.
On the basis of this history, I would not encourage anyone to hope for a settlement with Israel.
So …
Keep on fighting then, until that indefinite day in the future when the IDF is “defeated” by them giving up.
Fine, but I thought the objective was to stop the deaths and maimings of innocent men, women and children and the infrastructure destruction. Stop the “genocide” in other words.
Let’s say you’re entirely right and exactly the same thing happens again.
“Endless human rights abuses, for 20 years” or “genocide”?
To me, it’s a no-brainer.
just to repeat, as you’re repeating: Israel is not able to continue ‘indefinitely’, as you claim. They’re under pressure to finish.
Laguerre
A heads up, Main and two or three of his Hubble Road, Denison buddies, haunts the Wings Over Scotland site, we know what they are.
““Endless human rights abuses, for 20 years”
The abuses would continue until there was nobody left to abuse. Slow motion genocide.
I think the no brainer is for those who are committing genocide to stop or be stopped.
A propos, “Why don’t the PLO [or, today, Hamas] come out with their hands up, and agree to evacuate the city?”…
Another little anecdote from Ilan Pappe’s book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” (also from 1948):
“Deserted by both the volunteers and the Legionaries, the men of Lydd, armed with some old rifles, took shelter in the Dahamish Mosque in the city centre. After a few hours of fighting they surrendered, only to be massacred inside the mosque by the Israeli forces. Palestinian sources recount that in the mosque and in the streets nearby, where the Jewish troops went on yet another rampage of murder and pillage, 426 men, women and children were killed (176 bodies were found in the mosque)”.
Surrendering to the Zionists is not an appealing choice. The thing to remember is that many of them, apparently including all the decision makers, believe that Jews are the only real humans with genuine God-given souls; and that all Gentiles are hardly better than animals. It is therefore no sin to kill, let alone lie to or rob them.
Official Israeli sources will tell you that this is quite untrue. But… see the problem?
No need to worry about being pillored John. There is a spectrum of stupidity and hatred on social media that is clear for all to see.
But this is a relatively niche forum you must have deliberately selected, and chosen to participate in. Even the title of the author’s post: “Stopping genocide”, is pretty clear. Yet all your posts are essentially the same: condemn Hamas, Israel are not committing genocide, even if Israel was committing genocide, no one is going to prosecute them.
What is the point of your participation I wonder.
Focusing on the topic, genocide. I wonder at what point would you agree that Israel is committing genocide, according to the definition provided by the UN. I’ll help you with the link, and the definition begins at article II:
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
And assuming there is a criteria that you can provide, whereupon Israel could be accused of genocide (even if you believe we are not quite at that point). What should be the regional and global response to Israel genocide?
Do you have any answers to those questions:
– When would you accept that Israel is committing genocide according to the UN definition, or your own criteria?
– What should be the regional and global response to Israel genocide when it occurs?
Thanks
The point of my participation is to respond to our host’s call for each of us to do a little bit more to end the “genocide”.
My bit more is to suggest an open-minded look at what might happen if Hamas were to do the currently unthinkable – give up.
There’s historical precedent for irregular forces to stop fighting when it becomes clear that the civilians in which they are embedded are paying a disproportionate price because of the overwhelming superiority of the organised regular army they are fighting. The results and eventual outcome of the French Resistance uprising in Normandy in 1944 are a matter of historical record that supports my point.
I suspect that you are far more interested on points scoring over the threshold for genocide than you ever will be in stopping it. Fine, your opinion counts for as little as does mine, or that of our host, but fill your boots.
“My bit more is to suggest an open-minded look at what might happen if Hamas were to do the currently unthinkable – give up.”
A suggestion you would do very well to take up yourself. So far, you have come up with only one outcome, out of a very large number of possible ones and insist that it is what would happen, ignoring anyone else’s suggestions of alternatives. This is not what almost every other English speaker in the world considers as “open minded”. In any case, were Hamas to give up, how could anyone tell that everyone had surrendered? Would it not be an eminently sensible move by the IDF to continue the bombing, just in case there were some diehards left who hadn’t given in?
If you post pish, prepare for pelters. And yes, I am rather pleased with the alliterative nature of that sentence.
« U.S. President George Bush today signed into law the American Service members Protection Act of 2002, which is intended to intimidate countries that ratify the treaty for the International Criminal Court (ICC). The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the “Hague invasion clause,” has caused a strong reaction from U.S. allies around the world, particularly in the Netherlands. »
https://www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law
ICC judges can be refused entry to the US: so much for the ICC, which can only prosecute small- or medium-sized countries.
In order to bypass the 1949 Charter and other counties veto, the US has invented the ‘Rules based order’.
Just as the US can bully other countries into stopping ICC prosecutions, so it can do the same with the ICJ.
The case of Nicaragua v United states is instructive in relation to International law; here is what the ICJ determined…
1. Did the US violate its customary international law obligation not to intervene in the affairs of another State, when it trained, armed, equipped, and financed the contra forces, or when it encouraged, supported, and aided the military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua?
2. Did the US violate its customary international law obligation not to use force against another State, when it directly attacked Nicaragua in 1983 and 1984 and when its activities in point (1) above resulted in the use of force?
3. Can the military and paramilitary activities that the US undertook in and against Nicaragua be justified as collective self-defence?
4. Did the US breach its customary international law obligation not to violate the sovereignty of another State, when it directed or authorized its aircrafts to fly over the territory of Nicaragua and because of acts referred to in (2) above?
5. Did the US breach its customary international law obligations not to violate the sovereignty of another State, not to intervene in its affairs, not to use force against another State and not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce, when it laid mines in the internal waters and in the territorial sea of Nicaragua?
The court’s decision…
The US violated customary international law in relation to (1), (2), (4) and (5) above. On (3), the Court found that the United States could not rely on collective self-defence to justify its use of force against Nicaragua.
The US did not accept the court’s decision, and just walked away and refused to pay any reparations.
I presume the same applies to US allies like Israel. How did the Athenians react? They did not wish to waste time arguing over the morality of the situation, because in practice might makes right — or, in their own words – “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”…
The ‘arc of resistance’ led by Iran including Yemen, Iraq, Syria and Hezbollah millitias hold the only hope for the Palestinians. The latter have a huge arsenal of thousands of precision weapons which Nasrallah has promised can reach every part of Israel, including Israels main ports of Ashdod and Haifa and Ben Gurion airport, The vaunted Israeli airforce will find it dificult to take off and land on their bombed out military airports, Israel’s gas rigs, power plants and shipping are easily targeted by the C802 missiles [like the Frigate Hanit in 2006].and other precision missiles, In theory Tel Aviv will become a wasteland when the Arc of resistance start lobbing proper missiles at the surrounded Israel. This was predicted by Israels leading missile expert Uri Rubin, who said precision misslles which cost millions of dollars years ago, can be produced with tens of dollars now, with smart phones and winglets added to dumb rockets.
Professor Theodore A Postol Physicist Professor emeritus, science, Technology and National Security policy, ballistic missile defence etc at MIT said iron dome maybe 5% effective.
During the November 2012 conflict, a detailed review of a large number of photographs of Iron Dome interceptor contrails revealed that the rocket-defense system’s success rate was very low—as low as 5 percent or, perhaps, even less The collection of data for Iron Dome’s performance in July 2014 is still in progress. The data we have collected so far, however, indicates the performance of Iron Dome has not markedly improved. https://thebulletin.org/2014/07/the-evidence-that-shows-iron-dome-is-not-working/
There is a line of thought that, counter to appearances, Russia and China are working quietly behind the scenes (meaning unreported in western media) to organise (non-western) international unanimity in favour of a ceasefire, international peace conference and international peace keeping force.
Both Russia and China have close and developing relations with the Middle East and the Arab and Muslim countries. Whilst the Arab and Muslim countries have been widely criticised for not using their military or economic power to intervene in the conflict, at a joint meeting of the Arab League and the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) which includes virtually all Arab and Muslim countries, there was unanimous agreement that there would be no reconciliation with Israel until there is an end to conflict and a satisfactory political and peaceful resolution based on the Saudi Arabian peace plan of 2002:
” … emphasising adherence to the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002 in its entirety and priorities as the unified Arab consensus and the foundation for any peace revitalisation efforts in the Middle East. The precondition for peace with Israel and the establishment of normal relations rests on ending its occupation of all Palestinian and Arab territories. It also includes establishing an independent, fully sovereign Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, restoring the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, including the right to self-determination, return, and compensation for Palestinian refugees, resolving their issue justly per UN General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948.”
From Arab News: https://www.arabnews.com/node/2407236/middle-east
The Saudi Arab Peace Plan:
http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20081017165433/http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/AllDocsByUNID/5a7229b652beb9c5c1256b8a0054b62e
On Wednesday the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres took the extremely rare step of invoking UN Article 99 which empowers him to call on the Security Council to address urgently the emergency situation in Gaza and to call for a ceasefire:
https://twitter.com/antonioguterres/status/1732457928496496793
On Thursday the UAE, having had discussions with Putin the previous day, followed up with a draft resolution for a ceasefire which is due to be discussed today (Friday).
There is a strong feeling that pressure is being organised to internationally isolate and put pressure on Genocide Joe to support a ceasefire. His ratings are plummeting, especially among the young, and it has become clear that the loss of support among muslims, for instance in the state of Michigan, could cost the Democrats the 2024 elections. Surrounded and engulfed by disaster and confronted by international unanimity and opprobrium, there is a view that the US will force a “humanitarian ceasefire” by Christmas which will develop into a permanent cessation.
Professor Jeffrey Sachs implied as much speaking to Judge Napolitano on Thursday. Asked “How do you see this ending Professor Sachs?” he replied “I see it ending perhaps sooner than we think … ”
Watch from 27:50 –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6Rykw2364
I rather think Sachs is right. The big issue for the Democrats in the US is the prospective loss of the 2024 election, with, as a secondary issue, the loss of international prestige in the eyes of the ROW over being seen to support such a ghastly slaughter. Even Blinken, one of Israel’s representatives in Washington, is being forced to distance himself from Israeli bloodshed, saying it’s not what you promised….
Indeed, and there’s nothing both Biden and the US establishment fear more than a Trump presidency. Especially Biden because he knows that, as President, Trump will drag him and his family into court to answer for their corruption in Ukraine and China.
Hunter Biden’s travails with the law increase daily as just yesterday he was indicted on tax evasion charges:
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/07/hunter-biden-charged-failure-pay-taxes-00130770
Joe Biden is keenly aware that a Trump presidency could land him and his family in even hotter water.
interesting parallel with Bibi there, he faces prosecution if the war ends.
I think it would be more helpful, fair and accurate to talk in terms of maldevelopment rather than development when describing the states and empires which are supporting the genocide of Palestinians. Miscalling them ‘developed’ and others ‘developing’ is misattributing wisdom, maturity, health and virtue.
I tried to follow the info in that Wiki article but something’s amiss. Amin’s 1990 book, although it has maldevelopment in the title, didn’t seem to have it in the text or maldéveloppement. The Wiki source by Aron Katsenelinboigen likewise unless I missed something
https://archive.org/details/evolutionarychan0009kats/page/25/mode/1up
Plus ‘OED’s earliest evidence for maldevelopment is from 1899, in the writing of T. Clifford Allbutt, physician.’
@GreatedApe, I only refer to Wikipedia here in the sense of introducing a concept, I should have quoted the specific section of its Maldevelopment page I found helpful:
This makes it quite distinct from Underdevelopment, in the Walter Rodney sense. I would add biological/ecological conditions, and the needs and means of non-human life to the above-quoted definition.
Ecocidal, environmentally-degrading, eternal-warring, apartheid, settler-colonial, imperial-expansionist, theocratic, consumer-capitalist, totalitarian, patriarchal/matriarchal states, cultures and empires would all be maldevelopments (or candidates). Not templates to follow or Piagian development paths. For example, monotheists regularly present monotheism as an improvement on polytheism and polytheism an improvement on animism. Without defending animism, I’d argue the reverse is true, on the evidence.
I agree I think that’s a crucial distinction. I see the term is mentioned in the climate change literature along with maladaptation. Such as in a 2020 primer from the Environmental Change Institute at the Uni of Oxford, “Maladaptation: When Adaptation to Climate Change Goes Very Wrong”.
I do like to check the origin of sci concepts, especially bio, but just weird here. An article this year in Ocean & Coastal Management says “The term maldevelopment originates in human and social development studies as a way of describing “the state of an organism that did not develop the normal way” (Amin, 1990)”. The reference lists page 244 of Maldevelopment: Anatomy of a Global Failure by Amin, an Egyptian communist. But it’s not in the PDF online and the closest that page gets (coincidentally related to current post) is
“the radical nationalist states nurtured a vision of the total liberation of Africa and the Middle East that would pave the way to overcoming the handicaps inherited from the past and colonization, ‘underdevelopment’ (understood as dependence on imperialism and not as ‘backwardness and poverty’), and the break-up into more or less artificial states, vulnerable by virtue of their inadequate size. Nasser’s pan-Arab language and Nkrumah’s pan-African language, far from being absurdly utopian, were rather evidence of the perceptiveness of these historic leaders.”
Maybe it’s something to do with translations from French, or different publishers, though I checked the 1990 UN series version that was cited.
Anyways.
I am also very interested in your point about theisms vs animism, because I’ve been arriving at a possibly related view from a different road. There’s been some resurgence in Phil of Mind in panpsychism, which I was surprised to learn Bertrand Russell had been a proponent of. I’m not sure how useful that term is but even with the mainstream scientific paradigm, Functionalism, there doesn’t seem any way to restrict functions to just organisms, and there doesn’t seem to be like a new level of e.g. quantum functioning in brains. There doesn’t seem to be a “vital elan” within evolved organisms. It just seems that ‘qualia’ must be inherent to the physical universe, along functional lines. Which is baffling because ascribing a function to something seems like a subjective holistic (in space and time) decision.
I think the concept of maldevelopment is useful but I would not use it here in a ‘departure from normal’ sense, which doesn’t really work for political-economic-cultural systems with novel components (like mass interconnection through technology). Health, objectively measured through reasonable proxies, is more useful to determine what is ‘mal’.
Thanks for the philosophical and political references. Certainly opponents of neocolonialism were thinking of maldevelopment (old empires turning ex-colonies into debt- and hunger-wracked corrupted extraction sites, proxy battlefields and arms buyers).
I see life as a value-creation phenomena. As an emergent phenomena, rather than value being inherent in a physical universe. Although that is more of an observation than a creed with me.
may be this lifts the spirits a bit:
Finkelstein met Cornel West in the Comedy Cellar last night in NYC
https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/finkelstein-interviews-cornel-west
77 min.
sort of mix of perfomance, electoral campaign, discussion over Gaza
Cornel West starts with a birthday song in the honour of Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein 7th/8th December.
Not all of it is new when Finkelstein repeats some events. But it has a remarkable positive vibe at times. And much humour via those opposing 2 characters.
Another independent journalist, Sam Husseini, regular thorn at US empire press briefings, has also started asking why no country has invoked the Genocide Convention at the ICJ, including Palestine itself.
Invoke the Genocide Convention Now (w/Sam Husseini)
https://youtu.be/5dmTWQMQ57Q?si=BhZngC_KRtJBJvAW
The best and most effective action is to blockade, and thereby shut down the factories that are making the weapons being used by Israel to carry out its genocide. The UK arms industry is in it up to its neck. The warplanes being used need heavy maintenance, and cannot fly without spare parts. See British public shut down 4 factories today supplying arms to Israel. . As KernowDamo says, it is very important that this is done peacefully.
The best bit is that the BAE Govan site was shut down by local Glasgow residents.
I will be on the national demo tomorrow (Saturday 9 Dec). Nowhere near enough, but it’s better than not doing anything.
Damien Willey, aka our Cornish friend KernowDamo, mentions “Workers for a Free Palestine”, but doesn’t link to their website. So I thought I would provide a link to make things easier for you all. Normally I wouldn’t bother, but when you google “Workers for a Free Palestine”, you don’t get a link to their website – at least not very easily.
Looks to me like Google is trying to censor or shadow-ban them.
So here’s the link: Workers for a Free Palestine
Could you explain why you felt it relevant to tell us the colour and length of the women speakers’ hair?
That is unfair. Many women make a glory of their hair, thus implicitly expecting it to be noticed, as Craig has indeed done.
I agree – after some thought. Male politicians are known for their coiffures, and it is notorious that a “fine head of hair” (even if purest white) can influence voters. As can good teeth, posture, and dress.
As noted by Machiavelli
Remarkable, isn’t it, how eternal are the verities enunciated by Machiavelli and, before him, a long line of honest men going back to the anonymous Athenian spokesman of the Melian Dialogue?
Human nature doesn’t change. There are just different flavours of it.
No country will invoke the Genocide Convention because no country wants to damage its self-interests. What does that say about ALL the governments of the world? It tells me that Palestinian lives are worth nothing in their eyes.
Oh, don’t get me wrong: the majority of the people from countries around the world are good and decent and want to see the end of the Israeli genocide, and in some cases the people have taken action to say, demonstrate, or block the gates at arms factories supplying the IDF, but their governments – although they might speak of peace and call for a ceasefire – won’t commit to anything more than just talk.
As for the majority of Western governments, well for me their masks slipped when the Ukraine/Russa conflict broke out, and what I saw was pretty ugly back then. The genocide in Gaza by Israel has just reinforced that position, that the West’s governments – and its lacky bodies such as the EU, the ICC, the UN and its arms such as the UNWFP which is headed up by a woman who attended an IDF fundraiser – are utterly bias.
As you rightly point out the anti-Semitism trope has further been weaponised against any citizen or group that demonstrates against the Israeli genocide of the oppressed Palestinian people, and I’ve even read that plans are afoot in some countries to equate the mentioning of Zionists or Zionism as a form of anti-Semitism.
China in my opinion is following the herd and trying to protect its own interests – again, what does that say about humanity? It tells me the entire global system of governance is rotten to its core, when an entire planet full of billions of people can allow the genocide of unarmed women and children to be televised daily as horror upon horror unfolds before our very eyes.
When will the genocide end? Will it be when every last Gazan is either dead or forced into the Sinai desert to perish there? Will it end when the West Bank is also ethnically cleansed by Israel? Are we still to witness this horror show live on TV as well?
And what will it say about us, if this is what happens and we stand by and let it happen?
This is a bit of a pipedream of course but In my view the key to break the stalemate is to unseat the arab leaders, especially in Egypt, Saudiarabia, Qatar, UAE, Morocco, Jordan, those are the most complicit of actors letting this bloodletting unfold almost totally unfazed. Because while demonstrations by westerners are a good way to raise awarness they will obviously bring no change simply because the western politicians do not care what protesters think and as you say the leaders of China, and also Russia do not care about palestinians either. But, if arab population in the above mentioned nations, started to protest and rioting (just like in the Arab street) and manage to unseat their current rulers, that would actually pave the way for a change to the benefit of the palestinians.
Egypt’s president have hardly said a word about the israeli onslaught (sure, muted criticism once a month) instead he is busy jailing another (remember pro-palestinian Mohamed Morsi that was also jailed?) oppositional candidate:.
Al-Sisi is using the war in Gaza as an excuse for more repression
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231122-al-sisi-is-using-the-war-in-gaza-as-an-excuse-for-more-repression/
I do not understand what’s in it for them to sit and silent and do nothing? Are they not realizing that Israel hate not only palestinians but every arab state? Are they not realizing that sooner or later that they themselves will be in the cross-hair of IDF?
I have to say Jack, that in my opinion, it’s Genocide Joe (US POTUS) that’s most complicit: one word from him and the slaughter would stop. Currently he’s allowing Israel, via its powerful lobby groups in the US, to continue the extermination of the Palestinians, and on the other hand he seems quite content with the cutting of funding to Ukraine, to force Zelensky into getting around a table with Russian delegates to thrash out a peace deal.
Consecutive US administrations headed by various US Presidents could’ve over the decades coerced Israel into coming up with a two-state plan and we probably wouldn’t be seeing what we’re seeing happening in Gaza right now, but again powerful pro-Israeli lobby groups and very rich American Jews have bought most of the US politicians off and they continue to do so.
Most of Europe is captured by the US as is the UK, New Zealand and Australia, that’s why none of them will go against what Genocide Joe says on what Netanyahu can and can’t do to the oppressed Palestinians.
Other nations won’t go against the US because they fear sanctions or a coup, which in reality is war by other means.
Some leaders like Egypt’s el Sisi are playing the long game. He wants the West to turn a blind eye to his oppression in Egypt, and Egypt’s huge national debt wiped; maybe then he’d take the majority of the oppressed Palestinians – which I think for the poor Palestinians would be like going from the frying pan to the fire, as el Sisi would be very heavy-handed with them.
Then you have Turkey’s president Erdoğan making all sort of noises in favour of the Palestinians. Erdoğan is a wily old fox of a politician. He, in my opinion, is using the plight of the Palestinians to further his and his country’s ambitions. Maybe he wants a full EU membership, or maybe he to wants a blind eye turned to the slaughter of the Kurds in Turkey, especially the PKK.
I get the feeling that Palestinian lives are nothing more than a bartering tool for many ME nations.
I don’t think you understand how American politics works. Going against the Israel lobby is generally political suicide in the USA. Almost no US politician cares about what the voters want: they care about funding for their re-election campaigns, because US elections are usually (not always, but usually) decided by funding. FPTP in action.
There are a few exceptions – but very very few.
I tend to agree with RoS.
When Israel started bombing Lebanon for no good reason back in 1982, Reagan called Begin and very angrily demanded he stop at once.
Genocide Joe, on the other hand, has actively encouraged this continuing mass murder by the Israelis.
I heard that Genocide Joe still thinks this is the 1970s, and that he’s dealing with an Israel that is only a little bit genocidal, nothing like the far-right extremists of today. And that this, more than anything else, has made him so indulgent of this slaughter. Because he believes everything Israel tells him – from scores of beheaded babies, to Hamas exaggerating the death toll by a ludicrous factor.
Townsman.
If you’ve read my comment, you’ll see I mention the pro-Israeli lobby and rich American Jews driving the agenda with the Palestinians in mind, infact I’d go as far as to say that US M.E policies virtually mirror that of Israeli policies in the region.
However Genocide Joe is a SITTING POTUS, and regardless of the likes of the AIPAC etc influence, he could at the very least find a way to impose a long term ceasefire if he weren’t such an obedient servant. The power is there; the will however is not.
Of course it’s not just the pro-Israeli lobby that has a big say in US policy, the likes of big pharma, the MIC and many other huge corporations within the US fund and back their men and women in the Senate and the House of Representatives, and grease their palms along the way.
Have to disagree. I believe the Arabs are doing things, just not in the public eye. Look at what Putin has been doing, IMO that’s not all geopolitical realignments. But I may be wrong. As I’ve said before, taking the USA/UK ‘shock and awe’ approach will only lead to more bloodshed and chaos. There is a lot in play here and making the wrong move could be disastrous. Obviously the continuing, blatant genocide by the Israeli fascists is sickening and frustrating for those who care, but the political outcome is ultimately not going to be in Israel’s or the USA/UK’s favour.
Stevie Boy
You have made this argument before, it is simply untrue and totally unsound, up until october 7 there were great movement towards a normalization between Israel and multiple arab leaders. There have been like 5 Gaza war past 10-15 years. What did the arabs leaders do all these wars? They did nothing and they do nothing now obviously, stop fooling yourself, these people sit where they sit because they are western puppet states.
Stop being such a jingoist. If one of the Arab countries you decry actually was so foolish as to declare war on Israel, would you go and volunteer to fight for them in their army? If not, why are you suggesting that they sacrifice their soldiers to do what you think they ought to do? Please consider that the leaders of these countries might have actually considered your cunning plan and decided it wasn’t such a good idea after all. Even in the 50s, your ideas were being satirised by the likes of Tom Lehrer:
“When someone makes a move,
of which we disapprove,
who is it that always intervenes?
UN and OAS,
they have their place I guess,
But, first, send the Marines!”
Jack. What do you honestly think would happen if the Arabs attacked Israel? The USA is Israel’s bitch and doesn’t give a toss about international opinion. Consider the latest UN ceasefire vote, vetoed by the USA. Maybe you’re right, but I honestly cannot see a good outcome in more widespread military action. Yes, most of the Arab nations have leaders who follow the USA, but the difference with the West is that that a majority of ordinary Arabs know that the USA is not their friend. I still think Russia and China have the right approach – isolate the USA.
Can an individual or group take its own government to court in its own country, for failing to uphold its duty to prevent genocide on these grounds?
Glenn-nl The following article may cast some light on prosecuting Genocide in the UK.
« The UK Government explained these diverging standards by arguing that while international law has allowed universal jurisdiction in respect to torture, as shown in article 5(2) of the Convention Against Torture, it has not done so for genocide.43 It believes that they should only implement universal jurisdiction for a crime when required to do so by an international convention, as a way of fulfilling their obligations.44 This is not the case for the crime of genocide, as the Convention is only based on territorial jurisdiction. Coming from a country which has been vocal about its desire to fight against impunity, such a policy is paradoxical and, most importantly, dangerous. Indeed, although the UK Government claimed that the residency requirement would not create any loopholes allowing a suspected criminal to escape prosecutions altogether,45 it has unfortunately had consequences in practice, most notably in relation to Rwandan genocide suspects living in the UK. »
https://blog.lselawreview.com/2022/03/incorporation-genocide-convention-france-uk-grudging-fight-against-impunity
UN Sec Gen Antonio Guterres is now speaking powerfully live at the UNSC having invoked emergency Article 99.
Live (scroll back available) feed:
https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k19/k1942fn3ny
Peter.
The UNSG invoking Article 99 won’t make on blind bit of difference. Formally, countries are bound by the UN Charter; however, in practice, there is little that member countries can be made to do.
In my opinion the UN isn’t the body it once was. Now countries put self-interest ahead of what’s best for the world in general.
I do not get why the non-western world that are constantly harassed by the US/EU are not taking their “revenge” now. If Russia could be implicated for killing 300 people for the airliner that was shot down over Ukraine some years ago with an alleged Russian military BUK military vehicle, why are not Russia exposing and exploiting the fact the US/EU for their involvement in 17,000+ deaths in Gaza by mostly EU/US arms and bullets? Or why not get back at the EU/US for their acts against Russia ever since the Ukrainian invasion? Why play nice if your opponent are using dirty tricks? Such a missed opportunity for Russia itself, but also for the plight of the palestinians.
I think Guterres is a good man, but all he can do is force the UN Security Council to meet, listen to his statement, and discuss the issue. He has done that. Then, the US will veto any action.
The UN is not completely useless, because it is better for nations to talk to each other than not talk to each other at all, but many people seem to have unrealistic expectations of it.
I know that General Assembly is non-binding and all that, but is not there a clause/paragraph that the General Assembly could make use of in a situation where UNSC is not upholding their commitment? Anyone know what I might be thinking of?
Because Israel is the West’s baby, they will not intervene, in fact Nancy Pelosi has said “If Washington D.C. crumbled to the ground, the last thing that would remain is our support for Israel.” – Nancy Pelosi at AIPAC.
Europe, of course, follows the US lead. Many surrounding states are loath to act directly fearing the US reaction. This leaves the ‘Arc of resistance’ as the only saviour for the Palestinians. Of course, they have to factor in the West’s response. The bottom line is: does Hezbollah allow the Israelis to ethnically cleanse/genocide the Palestinians? If they do, then unfortunately the ‘Arc of resistance’ stands for nothing and might just as well go home and protect their own patch, because as sure as night follows day, they will be next.
Not sure what you mean by the ‘West’s baby’?
Zionism is something that ultimately came out of Eastern Europe particularly Russia although it was latterly funded by Rothschild but was ‘created’ but the same people that gave us Communism and Marxism and at around the same time.
Those were ideologies were founded in freemasonry from the same lineage as the French Revolution the idea being to undermine European monarchies and society from within.
This was in response to the failures of the Young Movement revolutions of 1848.
Finally. I kept waiting to see who would be the first to say that the root of the problem is Russia. I had no doubt that this would be some new nickname on this site, although to be honest, I was more inclined to think that this flag would be raised by Pears or John.
A very strange response Tatyana and not sure why you are sensitive to criticism that was not aimed at Russia but to certain elements within Russia.
Russia is not and never has been a homogenous entity as the murder of the Czar’s and the Russian revolution confirm. It’s the group behind the revolution and the funders of the Bolsheviks and who roots in the secret societies that was the reason for my post.
Even within those there are competing elements as history shows. The Russian empire has a complicated history not so dissimilar to what is happening today. This was all documented many years ago by Solzhenitsyn in ‘200 years’.
That isn’t a purely Russian history but is internationalist in scope. It covers many countries and many years and the communist plan was Europe wide.
Not entirely sure what you are defending here or why.
No.
Central and Eastern Europe. Herzl, the founder of Zionism, was born in Hungary and spent most of his career in Vienna.
Your comment references one man while ignoring the huge influence of eastern European Jews, particularly those from the former Khazarian empire.
I would also argue as a former communist-block country, Hungary was part of Eastern Europe.
The ‘founder of Zionism’ is an epithet that should really be lain at the door of John Nelson Darby. Hertzl merely picked up the canard some 40 years later and began the institutionalisation of the idea.
I was pleased to see Craig Murray repeatedly referring to the “current genocide”. It’s important to remember that the Zionist genocide of the Palestinian people in Palestine has been going on for many many decades.
It really is a bloody disgrace that my country, the UK, is deeply implicated in not only condoning the massacre, but is militarily involved in its execution. We are augmenting the blockade with two RN warships and RFA support ships as well as RAF aerial surveillance aircraft to finger targets for the Israelis to bomb. We have a Company of Royal Marines in the region and there exists a D-Notice which forbids the British MSM from making any mention of the sabre squadron (approx 64 guys) from 22SAS which is known to be operating in Gaza in partnership with Sayeret Matkal. I suspect that there may also be a squadron of SBS doing the same thing although I haven’t heard any such rumour.
Yes, I agree that we ordinary people should be speaking up and making our disapproval known. I’m unable to attend the Stop The War rally in London tomorrow. Next time there is one in Edinburgh I will be there.
If anyone knows the date/time/place of the next one, please post the details on this blog commentary site. My guess is that it will be a Saturday and that the locus will be at the foot of the Mound, but I need to know the date and kickoff time.
“It really is a bloody disgrace that my country, the UK, is deeply implicated in not only condoning the massacre, but is militarily involved in its execution”.
My feelings exactly, although I might use stronger language.
“It really is a bloody disgrace that my country, the UK, is deeply implicated in not only condoning the massacre, but is militarily involved in its execution.”
The UK is a country with many traditions and that is one of them.
It seems the Israel has no real friends who would say – you are making millions of people in surrounding states your enemy, let alone globally, and it will not end well for you. The stupidity of it is that this is mainly due to Netanyahu who called Yitzhak Rabin a traitor in 1995 for trying to come to some agreement with the PLO. The USA is supporting someone who likely would be in jail had he not got into power with the help of ultra-nationalists. I have lost all hope that there are strong, honest people in the ruling class anywhere. Unfortunately only massive unrest will force some resolution through more violence.
What’s really sad is that if Hamas not perpetrated their 7/Oct terrorist act, Netanyahu might well have been kicked out of office and possibly jailed reasonably soon for his corruption and criminality. He was immensely unpopular, and so were the murderers and lunatics he surrounded himself with in government.
“What’s really sad is that if Hamas not perpetrated their 7/Oct terrorist act, Netanyahu might well have been kicked out of office”
There appears to be an ever-growing body of evidence that there is causality in that, not just coincidence.
Does it matter? Would whoever replaced Netanyahu have been any better?
That wasn’t my point. Netanyahu needed the invasion to stop himself being kicked out. Even on October 8th that aspect was visible, even if it had not yet become obvious.
Not sure about that. How does he get kicked out when he is in control and working on changing the law to make sure he escapes criminal charges? He is a political Houdini. I think that Hamas wanted to stop the Accords with Saudi Arabia. I truly wish there had not been any atrocities on October 7th, but all armies commit them.
The US blocked the UN resolution for a ceasefire on the idea that the US wants a durable peace – what hypocrisy. Since the Oslo Accords, Israel and the USA have been the blocks on a durable peace. Kamala Harris talking about a plan for after, the same, when the plan has been there for 30 years. The Good Friday agreement did not suit all but got rid of a lot of the violence in Northern Ireland allowing a return to normal civil society. We have to see the two state solution based on 1967 borders in the same way. It will be messy and will not suit all, and will need a peace keeping force for a generation – where are the states(wo)men with the courage to force it through? I see those Palestinian children with lives destroyed every day and wish I could go hug them, comfort them, and give them a safe life. I wish there was an afterlife where the politicians promoting this could be damned in Hell. I don’t know where Catholic Biden thinks he will end up.
We can go on forever about who started it, from Arabs forcing Jews out of villages in the 19th century to the other way in 1948; meanwhile, in the present, innocents suffer while the arms business booms. Each side has to acknowledge the trauma of the other.
” I truly wish there had not been any atrocities on October 7th, but all armies commit them.”
It certainly seems that it was the IDF that made sure there were atrocities on October the 7th, by committing most, if not all of them. OTOH, it was the only army involved.
Glenn_nl and Robert Dyson are both right. Netanyahu faced so much pressure from the courts and his own people that he made sure that the Hamas trope got him out of the net for a while, by ensuring that there were enough murdered victims, many of them unidentifiable. Those who heaped up the bones of those victims and burned their bodies to cinders have helped Netanyahu to spin his web of lies. He possibly killed more of his own citizens than Hamas, just to keep them from being captured alive.
That man is the devil incarnate.
I have just seen a psychopath walking through Glasgow station, he had many people shouting and harassing him, with shouts of baby killer and have you no shame. That person was Keir Starmer the so-called leader of the Labour party. How any decent person, let alone a member of the Labour party, can stomach this utterly vile person is beyond me; he should be hounded out of the Labour party and Parliament. A more disgusting piece of filth I have yet to see.
But what can we do? If we lived in a democracy, enough of us could force a referendum which could (for example) prohibit all military aid to Israel and prohibit the British government from allowing other States to use its airfields to transport weapons to Israel. But we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a sham democracy, reduced by FPTP to a two-party system with two more or less identical parties.
I’ve donated to the Stop the War coalition, but I don’t delude myself that the Stop the War coalition can do much. They arrange demonstrations which the politicians ignore, as in 2003. If you think I’m not doing enough, tell me what I can do that will accomplish anything.
Video “How many more children have to die?”
Israel lobby-funded leader of the Labour Party, Keir Starmer, is confronted over his position on Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza.
https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1732806537783964015
Look how uneasy Keir become. Why Keir, why are you feeling uneasy for? You had 2 months to prepare a justification to kill kids in the thousands and here you are looking like a pathetic, disgraceful scared man that are unable to meet with your voting base when they asking you a simple, fair, humane question but no you do not have the courage to admit because you know deep down you are waist-down covered in palestinian blood.
Speaking on arms transfers, it is on going unhindered thanks to the inaction and complicit by Keir’s political “opposition” party.
🚨 Wednesday: UK military sends huge C17 transport plane to Tel Aviv.
🚨 Thursday: UK military sends huge A400M transport plane to Tel Aviv.
🚨 UK military still refuses to say what is onboard the dozens of planes it has sent to Israel since it began bombing Gaza.
https://twitter.com/declassifiedUK/status/1733114050312020250
What a terrible world we live in, it is like the world turned into a dictatorship where dissent are banned, the reality is not reported by the media and where human rights have been crushed.
True enough – but who forced him to marry her?
What is happening to the people of Donbass via the Ukronazi regime is genocide. What is happening in Palestine, though unpleasant, is nothing of the sort.
At least if My Murray had the intellectual honesty to praise Israel in comparison to the Nazi pygmy regimes of Estonia and Latvia, then I would take him more seriously and not view him as not just another pseudo-antiimperialist from the ex camel corps. In Israel the Arabic language is free to be used, printed everywhere, on every street sign and government document. In the psychopathic Baltic countries the similar courtesy is not available to Russian speakers .Considering the respective situations military-wise, I would argue the Arab nationalist has far more freedoms in Israel-controlled territory from a social and political point of view, than the average Russian or Russophile in Estonia or Latvia ( note I just said Russophile, not even Russian nationalist).
Murray over the years has fallen for and regurgitated the same toff British, anglo-french-American lies about Russia for the last 2 decades, so his Palestine concerns are hollow. The fact is you can’t be a full supporter of Palestinian freedom if you are not fully on the side of Russia against ukronazism and Putin’s governance of the last 2 decades.
If you really think that nothing much is going on in Gaza, I suggest you get a press pass and report back to us from there as an independent journalist. Tell us then of the wonderful freedoms of Palestinians – if you survive it, you’ll have plenty of right wing publications happy to show your proof of Palestinians singing and dancing and all that good stuff.
What most “Western” people do not see is that the same leaders who so blatantly support open genocide in Gaza are just as ready to mass-murder THEM, “their” own people. Actually, they already have – during and since Covid, through prohibition of treatment and through the imposition of deadly vaccines. There is a saying in Spanish: “Cuando las barbas del vecino veas pelar, pon tu barba a remojar”, i.e. when you see your neighbour’s beard being shaved, prepare you own beard. What’s happening should be a big red warning sign to all “Western” peoples too.
I’m sure that everyone who follows Craig is aware that Egypt repeatedly warned Israel in the weeks (and possibly months) prior to October 7th that Something Big was about to happen, and that BN/Israel ignored the warnings (and BN, for the obvious reason, denied Egypt did so, once it was made public):
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/
And then on November 20th Haaretz published the following article:
‘The women soldiers who warned of a pending Hamas attack – and were Ignored’
…….. These included reports about Hamas’ preparations near the border fence, its drone activity in recent months, its efforts to knock out cameras, the extensive use of vans and motorcycles, and even rehearsals for the shelling of tanks.
The spotters believe Hamas was actually being rather negligent: it didn’t try to hide anything and its actions were out in the open. But throughout this period, they say senior officers in the IDF’s Gaza Division and Southern Command refused to listen to their warnings.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/israeli-women-soldiers-warnings-were-ignored/
And then on November 27th, part of the lead story on BBC News (I happened to catch it on the 6 o’clock News) was about how Hamas and other groups had been openly training for the attack on October 7th for several years, and posting videos of their military exercises on social media. The following is from an article on their website:
‘How Hamas built a force to attack Israel on 7 October‘
Five armed Palestinian groups joined Hamas in the deadly 7 October attack on Israel after training together in military-style exercises from 2020 onwards, BBC News analysis shows.
The groups carried out joint drills in Gaza which closely resembled the tactics used during the deadly assault – including at a site less than 1km (0.6 miles) from the barrier with Israel – and posted them on social media.
They practised hostage-taking, raiding compounds and breaching Israel’s defences during these exercises, the last of which was held just 25 days before the attack……
Footage from the first drill shows masked commanders in a bunker appearing to conduct the exercise, and begins with a volley of rocket fire.
It cuts to heavily armed fighters overrunning a mocked-up tank marked with an Israeli flag, detaining a crew member and dragging him away as a prisoner, as well as raiding buildings.
We know from videos and harrowing witness statements that both tactics were used to capture soldiers and target civilians on 7 October……
The exercises were reported on in Israel, so it’s inconceivable they were not being closely monitored by the country’s extensive intelligence agencies.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67480680
And then earlier today I came across the following youtube video posted by The Hill six days ago (8mins 33secs):
‘Israel KNEW About Hamas Attack Plan A YEAR AGO: Report‘
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75UiLhKhoPk
So many indicators and obvious evidence that an attack was being planned were just supposedly ignored by BN and Israeli Intelligence, and then the Egyptian warnings. Hmm, I wonder why?!
re: “‘Israel KNEW About Hamas Attack Plan A YEAR AGO: Report‘”
just as an interesting opposing view in addition:
2 days ago Max Blumenthal on “Judging Freedom” suggested that the NYT alleging that the Israelis knew of Oct. 7th operations one year in advance might as well be a fabrication. He argues that said NYT author has long been an opponent of Netanyahu and that his sources were former Mossad disgruntled with N. and sought a way to hurt him politically.
I have no idea. Just mentioning for the sake of insight, TC: 12:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsQRe31nIZ8&t=184s
“He argues that said NYT author has long been an opponent of Netanyahu”
So what? Numerous outlets have been reporting the story. This argument only holds water if you believe that nothing has happened unless it is reported in the NYT.
I assume, Blumenthal meant that the story reported by many itself originated with that one going back to one particular band of intelligence officers. I haven’t looked into the many reports on the story. What I remember is that every report I did read went back to that one NYT report which thus appeared to be the first real news source.
If that were true and if the author of that original source did have affiliations to the group mentioned it wouldn´t be the first time that NYT was abusing its position and influence creating a fake scandal. As I said I personally don´t have an interest. I was just pointing it out since Blumenthal is a major critic of Israel. He did not say he definitely knows that this was an untrue story. He advised to be cautious. Enough examples out there justifying his caution. He could be right, he could be wrong.
That the Israelis knew a year in advance may well be a single source quoted only in the NYT, but that they were warned in advance is not. Some people knew in advance as shown by the pre October 7th trading in the shares in Israeli companies. That means the Israeli government is either incompetent or evil.
To appear incompetent might as well be the best trick to disguise evil in order to garner more support. As you say too many hints there. And unlike 9/11 the way Hamas would respond could easily be – and was in fact – foreseen by most people familiar with the matter. Whether they had a concrete game plan as suggested by the NYT or not is eventually of lesser relevance. As Chris Hedges in his latest speech (see my link on page 2) on Dec. 6th stated, Netanyahu´s lot has been dreaming about this for decades. The plans to rid the people off their land known for 50 years.