Well, ‘redacted’, I agree with everything you’ve written below the dotted line, which is why I mentioned in my second comment of this thread..:

– For the record, I am not a supporter of the “official story”. I think that the 9/11 attacks were quite possibly a Gladio B operation. Gladio B, exposed by whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, is a “strategy of tension” operation similar to the original Gladio operation in Europe, but using Jihadists in the place of violent right-wing extremists. Gladio B is run by NATO Secret Services, and 9/11 was used as the pretext to make the invasion of Afghanistan (for the Unocal pipeline) a NATO operation. NATO has no government of its own, so NATO Secret Services lacks government oversight.”

Maybe you missed that bit? But physics is my ‘thing’ and the Twin Towers did what you’d expect them to if they weren’t laced with explosives. I’m trying to help, you see, by warning you that you’re barking up the wrong tree and making fools of yourselves with the scientific and engineering communities. All you’re going to achieve with WTC7 is a vendetta against the firefighters, one of the major 9/11 victim groups.

But suit yourself, you lot always do.

– “All you’re going to achieve with WTC7 is a vendetta against the firefighters”

– “Move back, that building’s about to blow up”

The firefighters knew. But there’s no way they were in on the overall 9/11 attacks. WTC7 is serving as a very effective distraction. Who is being played? Me? Or your lot? Why are you going after a bunch of engineers and academics rather than, say, Condoleezza Rice?

And the same goes for anyone else; it gets lonely just posting my own thoughts as they develop.

I’d never heard that Danny Jowenko section before; I’d seen it, without audio, and I’d wondered what they’d been talking about. So above I recount that I heard it, what was discussed, and in what way it changed my mind a bit. But for that apparently I am accused of “neurological disorder, trolling, affliction, not interested in being enlightened and only interested in holding court”. Such accusations hurt me; please, just discuss with me.

@ Clark,

I am not going to try to chase down court documents to show that Silverstein only paid one monthly installment on the WTC lease, and that it was a pittance, nor that he had the clauses inserted into the insurance covering for destruction by terrorist attack and giving him the right to rebuild on the site if the buildings were destroyed. These things have been accepted for years by the Truther community.
For interest, assuming Silverstein knew about the asbestos problem, why would he have bought the lease anyway? It was uneconomic to remove the asbestos by hand, or to demolish the buildings by hand, and illegal to bring them down with controlled demolishion. How ‘Lucky’ was he? If ‘9/11’ didn’t happen, he would have bought a massive White Elephant, a huge money drain. Silverstein may be a lot of things, but he was not a foolhardy business man (like Bush Jr. or Trump).
Two more things – I know you believe Barry Jennings was mistaken or confused when he said he looked one way, and the Tower was there, looked back and it was gone. But that was what he said (in essence), which means he was saying the Twins were still standing when the stairs EXPLODED under him and his companion. But even if he did make a mistake or was confused (which I don’t buy) how do you cope with the stairs ‘exploding’? Rubble, even if Tower 2 had collapsed, would not have been able to bring down the 8th floor stairs, or do you think it could have? If so, how? And don’t say they rigged the WTC 7 with explosives, because there would have been no reason to bring it down before the Towers came down, and even if one Tower had come down before the stairs exploded, it would have just occurred, so plans would not even have been possible to have been made, never mind implemented.
And Danny Jowenko (like Barrie Jennings) died in very strange circumstances. A single-car fatal crash, head-on into a tree (like Michael Hastings). Have you ever heard of ‘Boston Brakes’? It is a method of taking control of a car from a distance, like the Boeing Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot.

Are you claiming that Silverstein, or more likely Silverstein Properties or some such, stopped paying the lease after the attack?

– “These things have been accepted for years by the Truther community.”

My experience is that five kinds of baloney “have been accepted for years by the Truther community”. The reason for that is that anyone who dares challenge any of it gets this kind of treatment, or told that they should be “taken out and shot”. Really. ‘Redacted’ just there accused me of being brain damaged, just like Dave accused me of having “sold my soul”, and none of you ever call them out for it. It’s bullying, and that’s why the Truther scene is full of nonsense.

Barry Jennings contradicted himself in the first and second parts of the interview. That’s no big deal in accounts of traumatic events; it’s not an insult, it’s just a fact. It is known that the collapse of WTC1 caused the “explosion” because that’s when the lights went out, and that time is known because it’s also when the alarms stopped sounding, because the emergency power was destroyed. I’m sure it did seem very much like an explosion; Hess thought so too, but it wasn’t. Yes, debris falling from nearly half a kilometre up could certainly have damaged the 8th floor stairs; some of it fell from the 110th floor so of course it could. WTC7 had an enormous gash in its front from the falling debris.

If Jowenko’s death is suspicious, why don’t you listen to what he said? He said that if asbestos didn’t need to be removed and an asbestos-free certificate obtained, WTC7 could have been rigged with explosives on the afternoon of 9/11. Yeah, I know that car computer security breaches have been demonstrated and control systems can be interfered with; computer security is a (fairly minor) interest of mine. Jowenko also said that the Twin Towers just collapsed without explosives; he was completely adamant about that.

@ Clark March 2, 2020 at 01:06
Yes, I am claiming they only ever paid the first month’s installment of the lease on the buildings.
Jowenko did not have the evidence of the dust samples with spheroids of iron and and unreacted nanothermite when commenting on the Twin Towers. Where you aware of the CIA-developed ‘Boston Brakes’, developed for disposing of ‘enemies’? And just three days after he was quoted in a high-profile Press Tv interview by Dr. Alan Sabrosky, Jowenko had his ‘car accident’.
‘Danny Jowenko is Dead, 3 Days After Sabrosky Interview Implicates CIA/Mossad in 911’:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/danny-jowenko-is-dead-3-days-after-sabrosky-interview-implicates-cia-mossad-in-911.7580695/
‘…Jowenko gained further noteriety when former Director of Studies at the US Army War College, Dr. Alan Sabrosky, said in a radio interview in 2010, that his skepticism of the official 911 story was prompted by Jowenko’s testimony. Jowenko’s death comes three days after Sabrosky gave an exclusive interview to PressTV in which he again reiterated his belief, which he says is common knowledge in some intelligence circles, that elements within both the CIA and Israeli Mossad planned 911. Dr. Sabrosky holds the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research at US Army War College.

He holds that the attacks were planned and executed in order to achieve dovetailing foreign policy goals, foremost the invasion and Balkanization of Iraq. Sabrosky says this has long been a goal among “Neo-conservatives” associated with the think-tank Project for a New American Century (PNAC.)…’
‘… Dr. Sabrosky says: Quote:
Only two intelligence agencies had the expertise, assets, access and political protection to execute 9/11 in the air and on the ground: our CIA and Israel’s Mossad.

Sabrosky describes hearing Jowenko’s analysis as the moment in which he first suspected that what he had been hearing in intelligence circles “was true.” [SIZE=-1] Sabrosky has noted that in 1996, an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu entitled “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” which advocated overthrowing Saddam, saying: [/SIZE]​
Quote:
“Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions.”
​
The authors of this paper later became key members of George Bush’s foreign policy team, almost all of whom were members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.[/SIZE] Perle was Chairman of Bush Defense Policy Advisory Committee until 2004. Douglas Feith was Bush’s Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. In what many have called a wish for a Pearl Harbor-like attack on American soil such as that which justified the American entrance into World War II, PNAC said in “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”:
Quote:
“Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor” – Project for a New American Century, Sept. 2000…’
‘…Jowenko’s death comes as the latest of what many 911 Truth advocates call an unlikely string of deaths of key 911 witnesses. The most famous of these is former chief of New York City’s Emergency Management Response Team, Barry Jennings , who was the last official out of the Emergency Command Center in WTC 7 before its collapse. Jennings said on camera that he had heard explosions from within the building that he knew were not fuel tanks or boilers, as a former “boiler man.”…’
‘…Earlier this year, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations Steve R. Pieczenik said in a radio interview that he is prepared to tell a federal grand jury the name of a top general who told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag attack (inside job.) Pieczenik served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior. Pieczenik said in a radio interview:
Quote:
“It was called a stand-down and false flag operation in order to mobilize the American public under the false pretense that we had been attacked by Al Qaeda and bin Laden which is an absolute unmitigated lie. I was even told by a general on the staff of Wolfowitz, I will go in front of a federal committee and swear on perjury who that name was so we can break this open…”
​
Paul Wolfowitz was one of the cabal in the Bush administration who openly expressed the need for “a new Pearl Harbor,” as a member of Project for a New American Century (PNAC.)…’.

And remember Barry Jennings saying he was led out through the rubble-strewn lobby and told by First Responders ‘Not to look down’ (a most strange thing to say, given as that is the first thing one should do to avoid tripping over rubble in circs like that).
Jennings didn’t look down, but said he knew ‘he was walking over bodies’.
I, and I’m sure you, have never walked over bodies, but I know I could tell the difference between concrete and plaster rubble and bodies, and I suspect you could too.

‘..Barry Jennings contradicted himself in the first and second parts of the interview.,’

Where? And if a large enough amount of rubble, adequate to devastate stairs (a very strong part of any high-rise), you think Jennings and his partner would mistake it for an explosion?
I don’t, any more than he mistook the explosions he heard for ‘boiler explosions’.
​

Paul, one final point; you claim that most people believe things merely because they’re repeated endlessly in the MSM. But to my observation, most Truthers believe things merely because they’re repeated endlessly on Truther websites.

Someone like me comes along and tries to work it out for themselves – I look up the structure of the Twin Towers, I visualise it as a one-hundredth scale model, I calculate momentum transfer between falling floor assemblies, I find construction images to see if the truss seats were substantial or flimsy, I look at the aftermath to see if bolts stripped out, I watch and summarise countless videos of the collapses, I listen to and acknowledge firefighters’ videos and testimony (I did all this on the 9/11 Post), I actually read and critique the UAF report, and I apply critical thinking…

What’s your response? You just parrot a load of Truther material at me, like some scared sheeple might parrot MSM at a Truther.

So I give up; believe what you like. I have wasted my effort.

@ Clark March 3, 2020 at 09:42
I did read your comment about 9/11 being likely a Gladio 2 event. And I agree with you that OBL was a good religiously driven man (indeed, I remember reading an article, probably in the Guardian or Observer, where OBL was being interviewed in a hut in Afghanistan where shells were being emptied of explosive, which was piled up and spread all over the floor, and IED’s were being produced. OBL said something to the effect: ‘One shell on here and we all meet our maker’.
OBL was being praised to the rooftops then in the West, because he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.
So do you believe OBL had anything to do with it?
Do you believe in the ’19 hijackers’ narrative?
Or that Boeing airliners containing passengers were involved in the Twin Tower, Pentagon and ‘Field Crash’?
Pieczenik is still around; he has very good contacts and friends in the Agencies.
Here he is in February 2020 on Alex Jones’ show:
‘STEVE PIECZENIK WARNS AG BARR PLANNING COUP AGAINST TRUMP’:
https://www.infowars.com/steve-pieczenik-warns-ag-barr-planning-coup-against-trump/
I don’t know how to just have a word that you can click on to bring up a link.
If you try to explain it to me, please be very detailed, because I am useless with computers.
But Barry Jennings’ ‘I knew I/we was/were walking over bodies’?

I suffered fairly heavy religious indoctrination myself (seven hours a week, isolation from my peers), so I know from experience that the fear and brainwashing didn’t start to abate until between the age of 25 and 30. The eldest 9/11 hijacker was 32, I think…

…and what I got was nothing compared with goes on in Saudi Arabia. There, torture and murder are entertainment. Religious police drag the public into stadiums, to see women flogged or stoned to death, men having their hands or heads cut off – where do you think ISIS learned their behaviour?

The hijackers were life-long victims. They were literally indoctrinated into suicide/mass-murder. It is the most evil, disgusting thing I have ever heard of.

Paul, I found a transcript of the interview of Barry Jennings. I made one myself ages ago but I couldn’t find it and I couldn’t be bothered to do it all again, but now I’ve found one on-line I can post the relevant sections:

– When we reached the 6th floor, the landing that we were standing on gave way. There was an explosion and the landing gave way. And I was left there, hanging. I had to climb back up. And now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor. After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark. It was dark and it was very, very hot. Very hot.

– All this time, I’m hearing all types of explosions. All this time, I’m hearing explosions. And I’m thinking that maybe it’s the buses around me that were on fire, the cars that were on fire. I don’t see no . . . you know? But I’m still hearing these explosions.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Note that it is not in chronological order: Jennings says he was “trapped in there for several hours”, and later he says that the firefighters came, but ran away twice as WTC2 and WTC1 collapsed. So that can’t be in chronological order, because both collapses occurred within 90 minutes of the first aircraft impact.

Note that the reason Jennings gives for the firefighters running away is his own inference, because he says he was on the north side of the building, yet the Twin Towers were not visible from there. As he said, “See, I didn’t know what was going on. […] I had no way of knowing that.”

So we can’t take Jennings account at face value; we have to work out what it implies:

– “After getting to the 8th floor, everything was dark.”

So by this time the emergency lighting had failed. That time is recorded because the alarms ceased too; emergency power failed when WTC1 collapsed. So Jennings didn’t get back to the 8th floor until after the collapse of WTC1. Why was there no light from the windows? Because they were covered in dust, and the dust came from the collapses. That is confirmed by this section:

– “I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows. Once I broke out the windows, I could see outside below me. I saw police cars on fire. Buses on fire.”

So he couldn’t see out until he broke the window, so the window had to be covered in dust. Outside, he saw vehicles on fire, and vehicles were set ablaze by the collapses.

– “I looked one way, the building was there. I looked the other way, it was gone.”

It’s not clear what this means; neither of the Twin Towers were visible from the north side of WTC7, and Jennings himself confirms that he didn’t see the collapses. Maybe he had looked out of a south side window earlier between the collapse of WTC2 and WTC1 and the trauma muddled the order of events in his memory, but at face value it just doesn’t make sense.

Note that he heard “all types of explosions”, so explosions with various different sounds, and “I’m thinking that maybe it’s the buses around me that were on fire, the cars that were on fire”, so he thought these were outside the building. He does say “I don’t see no . . . you know?”, but we know he couldn’t see out except through the window he broke. And it’s easy to tell if a sound is outside or inside because sounds outside echo around the streets. So the only “explosion” he reports inside is when the landing collapsed, but that’s also when it went dark, so that was almost certainly the collapse of WTC1 because that’s what destroyed the emergency power.

@ Clark March 3, 2020 at 22:22
Thanks for the link info, I’ll try it another time.
Re it being hard to direct a drone, don’t believe it. It is far easier than a novice pilot (one of whom a flying school even refused to hire a Cessna to, because he was so incompetent) flying a complex large passenger aircraft into the Twins and the Pentagon. All you need is to install a homing beacon in the target building, and the plane makes a B-line for the beacon once triggered to do so.
I repeatedly asked you to check out the video ‘Zero’, where the antics of the Patsy so-called ‘hijackers’ is shown to be so obviously arranged to make sure they are noticed, to set up a red-herring trail, the last thing real terrorists would want.
Then there is the ‘Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot’, ostensibly an anti-hijack system, but it can obviously be used to actually hijack an aircraft (like MH 370 almost certainly was). And the accuracy of drones has been all too clearly proven by the thousands of drone assassination missions (though unlike the Pentagon and Twin Towers, huge buildings, the assassination drones often hit the wrong targets (the targets being people, who are not generally sporting a homing beacon).

@ Clark March 7, 2020 at 02:20
‘…What if I told you that 5 of the (alleged?) 9/11 hijackers had trained at secure US military bases – flight-related bases – and two of them were Saudi Air Force pilots?’
I would agree with you. Would you agree with me, that the alleged pilot of the alleged plane that allegedly hit the Pentagon had been judged so incompetent that a flight school had refused to let him hire a Cessna?

And yes I did know about Northwoods.