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“I do not think they have named covid Patient Zero?”
They may very well never know who patient zero was and if they do I’m not sure it would be right to name them. Aside from the issue of confidentiality imagine the backlash if patient zero was named. Who knows what happened, there is much obfuscation going on. It appears that much of the gain of function work carried out in Wuhun labs was contracted and funded by USA agencies. It also appears that although USA banned gain of function research it still funded some. Fauci was in control of the funding. I posted this clip of Rand Paul, another republican senator, and Fauci.
It’s hard to make sense of it all especially as I just don’t have the necessary knowledge to decipher all the virology jargon in these research papers. It does appear that they were slicing and dicing genetic code to make hybrid viruses to “see what happened” at more than one lab. They should all be shut down for now.For historical context, the Spanish flu didn’t originate in Spain. Spain wasn’t involved in WW1 so they could report the outbreak there but such reports were suppressed for propaganda reasons in the USA and other countries involved in the war where it is generally thought to have first presented itself. There is a propaganda war going on over covid.
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“There is a propaganda war going on over covid.”
I think we can all agree on that statement by ET.
This is now probably the most deadly pandemic (over 18 months) since the flu at the end of World War One.
My Dad was born in 1918 and nobody in his family died of flu, yet several of my friends’ grandfathers died of the Spanish flu and their children did not know their fathers.
There is probably going to be several massive shifts, as this winds down.
Partial working from home. Buying stuff off the internet. Much quicker vaccine development. Much quicker robotic sample testing. Greater emphasis and more ability to treat chest infections. Much greater awareness of being over weight/diabetic. Hopefully, quicker kick-start to response of the next pandemic.Michael, my father was born 1915 and his dad died from the 1918 flu. He had been released from gaol having taken part in the “Easter Rising” in 1916 in Ireland. He died shortly thereafter and I wonder if he had caught it in gaol. Neither of my parents really ever spoke of this and we only found out many years later through local historical record.
If the Chinese Communist Party have insisted that all communication must go privately and via them, and Ecohealth Alliance have insisted that all communication must go privately and via their lawyers, I can’t imagine either of these parties truly understanding the other and it may have got very Catch-22.
So let me get this right.
We have here the making of a conspiracy theory whereby scientists from China and US have conspired to make a deadly virus knowingly and secretly without safeguarding by ensuring that it can be controlled. Then through negligence the virus escaped. The Chinese scientists and authorities then conspired to hush this up and to feign ignorance by fumbling about a bit at the beginning of the release of this deadly virus. They managed to control it locally but only after it was successfully exported to many countries. All this time US scientists knew very well that this was happening but because of personal involvement helped the coverup. To cap it all. The money for the research came from US who have recently had to farm this potentially dangerous research to China because outsourcing is cheaper and they recently had to close down Fort Detrick because of a leak. This is all of course without the usual stringent oversight of the two governments which do not exactly see eye to eye. Remarkably also, the research to produce this new pathogen also involved a secret ‘no see em’ way of hiding the research.
Now if David Icke or Del Bigtree or Kennedy or Yeadon said any of these, we would be discussing this under ”What is a conspiracy theory?”And of course Fauci, who now runs the efforts in the US to contain the virus, knew this all along and has operated with impunity under two administrations and runs the whole show in open defiance because they want you to know that they are in control.
In fact the CCCP is now cooped as the new collaborators in the World Government. Of course other scientists (although the major) are too frightened to speak because their jobs depend on not speaking out.And as Upton Sinclair said
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it”
Quite a lot of people have already died of Covid, over the last eighteen months,
in almost every country but not many, in China?
Some might suggest that China, knew what China was doing and they were more prepared for this outbreak than other countries. If China knew what it was doing, if because of that knowledge they had special plans in place in case stuff got out of the Level Four Laboratory, then in some ways they can be held responsible for many deaths and illnesses caused by this viral escape.One of the possible reasons for vaccine hesitancy in France, in particular, might be because in France you have the highest population of illegals. Illegal people probably would not want to come forward and register for a vaccine jab, if they had to give proof of who they were?
The above quoted article by Nicholas Wade, Science writer is much quoted as offering strong indications that some scientists working on coronaviruses have been practicing bad science and therefore as a result are acting in bad faith. But the analysis here is in the form of a polemic, not a proper scientifically argued way and full of journalistic innuendos. So let us just look at some of the claims that Wade makes:
A second statement that had enormous influence in shaping public attitudes was a letter (in other words an opinion piece, not a scientific article) published on 17 March 2020 in the journal Nature Medicine. Its authors were a group of virologists led by Kristian G. Andersen of the Scripps Research Institute
Unfortunately, this was another case of poor science, in the sense defined above. True, some older methods of cutting and pasting viral genomes retain tell-tale signs of manipulation. But newer methods, called “no-see-um” or “seamless” approaches, leave no defining marks.
What? No reference to this magic method of how to make invisible changes? Of course this is probably true but this statement without a reference is a rather popular way of throwing doubt on a paper, albeit an informed, well referenced scientific paper, by just saying, have you thought how magic could also have the same effect? Where is the evidence and where does this apply to the current discussion.
Nor do other methods for manipulating viruses such as serial passage, the repeated transfer of viruses from one culture of cells to another. If a virus has been manipulated, whether with a seamless method or by serial passage, there is no way of knowing that this is the case. Andersen and his colleagues were assuring their readers of something they could not know.
But let us actually see what Anderson et al state in their opinion piece:
3. Selection during passage
Basic research involving passage of bat SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses in cell culture and/or animal models has been ongoing for many years in biosafety level 2 laboratories across the world27, and there are documented instances of laboratory escapes of SARS-CoV28. We must therefore examine the possibility of an inadvertent laboratory release of SARS-CoV-2.In theory, it is possible that SARS-CoV-2 acquired RBD mutations (Fig. 1a) during adaptation to passage in cell culture, as has been observed in studies of SARS-CoV11. The finding of SARS-CoV-like coronaviruses from pangolins with nearly identical RBDs, however, provides a much stronger and more parsimonious explanation of how SARS-CoV-2 acquired these via recombination or mutation19.
The acquisition of both the polybasic cleavage site and predicted O-linked glycans also argues against culture-based scenarios. New polybasic cleavage sites have been observed only after prolonged passage of low-pathogenicity avian influenza virus in vitro or in vivo17. Furthermore, a hypothetical generation of SARS-CoV-2 by cell culture or animal passage would have required prior isolation of a progenitor virus with very high genetic similarity, which has not been described. Subsequent generation of a polybasic cleavage site would have then required repeated passage in cell culture or animals with ACE2 receptors similar to those of humans, but such work has also not previously been described. Finally, the generation of the predicted O-linked glycans is also unlikely to have occurred due to cell-culture passage, as such features suggest the involvement of an immune system18.
So the authors do not dismiss this possibility, but actually give their reason, based on actual knowledge and experience, of why this could not be the case.
The discussion part of their letter begins, “It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus.” But wait, didn’t the lead say the virus had clearly not been manipulated? The authors’ degree of certainty seemed to slip several notches when it came to laying out their reasoning.
Another typical type of conspiracy theory device, ah but wait caught in confessing in full sight.
But the mundane non-conspiratorial explanation here is simply a structural one in the way a paper is written. The passage asserting that the authors conclude that it is not a manipulated virus occurs early on in the introduction and summary and is an overall conclusion. But the other part expressing the improbability that the virus emerged through laboratory manipulation is in a paragraph where the two theories were weighed up. No smoking gun there either.
At the outset the author states:
In what follows I will sort through the available scientific facts, which hold many clues as to what happened, and provide readers with the evidence to make their own judgments.
The author does not do that in any balanced way. The whole tone is skeptical, accusatory and one sided. Moreover, it has no references at all to some of the science quoted used to either prove his point, or that Anderson and Dazak is wrong. In other words, this is ahit piece, not a balanced discussion. For a balanced discussion please see this.
Be careful whom you trust, after all the New York Times is a political organ.The issue is overpoliticised, started of by Trump and Pompeo calling it the Chinese virus, then now taken over by Biden in a new campaign against China. Remember the background. China is the new enemy and is being fought on all fronts. I will only show you this map to explain everything behind this enmity and demonization. Remember, the smoking gun of Iraq’s nuclear weapons?
“Some might suggest that China, knew what China was doing and they were more prepared for this outbreak than other countries.”
Indeed China new what to do to control the pandemic, and they did not keep that secret but others chose to ignore, so that means that China released the virus? If I take an insurance against fire and I have a fire in my house, I therefore knew what I was doing and I did it deliberately. Yes?
“One of the possible reasons for vaccine hesitancy in France, in particular, might be because in France you have the highest population of illegals.”
So what sort of numbers are we talking about Michael. If vaccine hesitance in France is, say 25% does that mean that a sizeable number of those are illegal immigrants? And what do you base this on? Can we see some actual facts her:
Eurofund produced a study on Living, working and COVID-19 . Towards the end of that PDF from page 16 on are some graphs and also discussion relating to vaccine hesitancy in EU. The UK isn’t in it for obvious reasons but the ONS provide data for UK here.
With regards to France here is a paper from Feb 2021 relating to Covid vaccines and hesitancy here is one from 2016, before covid, about vaccine hesitancy in general in France.
It seems it’s not a new thing. It has little to do with immigrant status.In terms of total percentage of vaccinated IOM, UAE and Israel are ahead of UK, Ireland, Spain and Denmark are pretty much the same with 1% difference and most of the other countries in Europe are not that far behind. USA, France and Greece are in a similar situation. Looking at the figures here some seem to have a higher proportion of partially vaccinated. I suspect that relates to vaccine availability and they are catching up now that vaccine supply has improved. UK had a better supply chain earlier on. It’s still mostly the richer countries that are managing any kind of effective vaccination, if you add in South Africa, Nigeria, India the picture looks pretty bleak.
“Some might suggest that China, knew what China was doing and they were more prepared for this outbreak than other countries.”
China responded to the first SARS outbreak in 2002-2004 with a recognition it didn’t have the warning mechanisms in place to pick such new viral illnesses up early. They set up a system of supposedly “political meddling” free surveillance. Apparently the political meddling still happened with the provinces not wanting to report bad news to Beijing. However, look at the WHO timeline here. At the end of Dec 2019 the WHO alerted health authorities and by early Jan it was knows there was a cohort of pneumonia cases of unknown origin. On Jan 9 2020 WHO reported that Chinese authorities have determined that the outbreak is caused by a novel coronavirus. On Jan 13 the first case outside China was reported in Thailand. And so on, read it for yourselves.
I remember reading that the two countries most prepared for a pandemic were UK and USA, what a load of tosh that turned out to be. The world had 2 months to prepare a response. Most didn’t bother. Do you remember Trump’s response? Do you remember Boris proudly stating that he shook hands with people? Whatever the origins of it, we had time to get ready for it and that time was squandered.
SA, “no see-um” is actually a misquote of “No See’m technology”, a technique that has been in use for over a decade:
https://www.google.com/search?q=No+See’m+technology
Systematic Assembly and Genetic Manipulation … – NCBI – NIH
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC7120124
by EF Donaldson · 2008 · Cited by 6 — Key Words: MHV, coronavirus, murine, infectious clone, No See’m technology, site-directed mutagenesis, type IIs restriction enzymes, reverse genetics.
Abstract · Introduction · Materials · MethodsSystematic Assembly of a Full-Length Infectious cDNA of …
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC136593by B Yount · 2002 · Cited by 351 — Consequently, its function in MHV replication and pathogenesis is not clear. … clones should remain in the assembled product (No See’m technology).
Abstract · MATERIALS AND METHODS · RESULTS · DISCUSSIONSystematic Assembly and Genetic Manipulation of the Mouse …
https://experiments.springernature.com › articlesEngineering mutations with the No See’m approach: (A) The position of … coronavirus, MHV, No See’m technology, type IIs restriction enzymes …
(PDF) Development of mouse hepatitis virus and SARS-CoV …
https://www.researchgate.net › publication › 8119695_De…“no-see-um” technology allows for the assembly of large DNAs from smaller sub-. clones without the incorporation of unique restriction sites into the genome …
SA, from the Anderson article you quoted:
– …Subsequent generation of a polybasic cleavage site would have then required repeated passage in cell culture or animals with ACE2 receptors similar to those of humans, but such work has also not previously been described. Finally, the generation of the predicted O-linked glycans is also unlikely to have occurred due to cell-culture passage, as such features suggest the involvement of an immune system.
But that’s precisely the work described in the suspect grant applications – studying enhanced coronaviruses by culturing them in transgenic mice, genetically modified to have human ACE2 receptors. Mice do of course have an immune system. You wrote:
– “So the authors do not dismiss this possibility, but actually give their reason, based on actual knowledge and experience, of why this could not be the case.”
I disagree. The authors seem to have evaded the point by going on about cell cultures rather than the actual allegation which very clearly specifies experiments in humanised mice. There is also this from the Anderson piece:
– “Furthermore, a hypothetical generation of SARS-CoV-2 by cell culture or animal passage would have required prior isolation of a progenitor virus with very high genetic similarity, which has not been described.”
Yes, but that’s the whole point of getting the WIV-Ecohealth genetic database opened – you know, the one that was quietly taken off-line by Ecohealth shortly after the seriousness of the outbreak was realised, and now everyone’s accusing the Chinese government of hiding.
Neither companies nor governments should be entitled to “confidentiality”. Secrecy kills. If what they’re doing is for public benefit as they claim, it should be all out in the open. If it’s merely for private profit, all the more reason for transparency.
SA, what I’ve been hearing for quite some time from people close to or who follow the scientific community is that the sciences have their own “establishment” most of whom seem quite prejudiced against the lab leak hypothesis, and quite a few more junior practitioners have been getting quite frustrated with their closing of ranks.
Surely you won’t defend Daszak declaring no competing interest in that Lancet letter? That was a very silly move on his part; I can’t imagine why he did it.
See, SARS-CoV-2 does really well in humanised mice. Much better than it does in bats, in which it’s a bit of a non-starter.
Looks like covid is raging through Europe, again, with U.K., France, Russia and Spain all on the podium.
I am very pleased that U.K. will start injecting older children.
J.V.T. seems to think that is urgent.“England’s deputy chief medical officer, Professor Jonathan Van-Tam, said parental consent will not be needed for the jabs, which will be rolled out before children go back to school in September.
And he strongly hinted the programme could be extended to those aged 12 to 15.”Apparently anti-vax parents are very annoyed this choice will be given to their children but the parents will not be able to stop their children getting vaccinated.
I have heard of mothers and mother-in-laws putting pressure on their adult married children, not to get vaccinated, causing rifts in familys.
Ghastly people trying to ram their nonsense “beliefs” on othersU.K., France, Germany and others to offer third jabs to the old and vulnerable and to older children ignoring the WHO
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210805-france-germany-to-offer-vaccine-boosters-despite-who-call-to-prioritise-poorer-nationsThe decision to press ahead with booster shots despite the strongest statement yet from the WHO highlights the challenge of dealing with a global pandemic while countries try to protect their own citizens from the more infectious Delta variant.
French President Emmanuel Macron said France was working on rolling out third COVID-19 vaccine doses to the elderly and vulnerable from September.
What the WHO does not understand is that it is the FIRST duty of a country to protect its own people, they are not voted in to assist people in other countries.
“What the WHO does not understand is that it is the FIRST duty of a country to protect its own people, they are not voted in to assist people in other countries.”
The debate is which would be more successful at stopping the pandemic. Having everyone on the planet vaccinated or having some vaccinated and others not. The virus can spread and mutate in those not vaccinated hence presenting a risk for those vaccinated. It’s a tough call. Helping get everyone vaccinated may be the best strategy to protect your own citizens. Like ditching water from a leaky boat with a bucket but not fixing the leak. I dunno what the answer is but I do think it should be made easier for other countries to make a vaccine. Patents and so on.
What I would like to ask is
why does Poland now have so very few cases.
Why is Poland doing so much better than other countries.
So much better than Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Netherlands, U.K., Italy and Germany?I know there were some on here who gave the impression that sharp lock-downs would put covid in its place, maybe covid has other ideas and just maybe vaccinations will be more useful that lock downs?
Until early July, Vietnam had reported less than 100 deaths since the start of the pandemic in 2020, but that had risen to more than 1,300 by 1 August. Around 85% of total coronavirus cases in Vietnam were reported in just the last month.
The health minister recently said that that the Delta variant was “destroying all anti-pandemic achievements” – but it is unclear how many cases are linked to the Delta variant.
Despite restrictions in place, cases continue to rise, with Ho Chi Minh City the worst affected area.
The vaccination programme has moved very slowly with only 0.68% of the population fully vaccinated as of 1 August.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53420537So Vietnam did very well for the first fifteen months with the old strategy
but the Delta variant and not mass-vaccinating is becoming their nightmare“Why is Poland doing so much better than other countries.”
Timelines Michael, Peaks occur at different times in diffferent places. I’m not sure they are doing so much better but rather they haven’t been hit with a wave yet. They have approx 50% vaccinated and of their current cases in the 200s 80% are delta variant. The previous waves in Poland happened a little later than they did in UK and hit them hard.
Michael, please take the time to look at the timelines in the graphs at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus. Pick whatever metric you want and whatever countries you want to compare. There is really no validity in looking at figures for a point in time and stating one country is doing better than another.
Spain’s case numbers have peaked and are falling now as have Portugal and Netherlands. Spain now has a higher percentage of people vaccinated than UK. Germany and Poland seem to be approx at the same point in any wave that might or might not happen there.
“I know there were some on here who gave the impression that sharp lock-downs would put covid in its place, “
I agree with Clark, if they had done so at the beginning in every country it could have been snuffed out quickly. It stll could if there was political will. Where I don’t agree with Clark is that I don’t think there will ever be such political will (short of an apocalyptic mortality). So vaccination or letting it rip through populations is the corner we have backed ourselves into at great cost. Enourmous amounts of money and resource have been sunk into vaccines and that may need to continue for a long time if not forever. When the first wave hit on the IOM after six weeks lockdown and border closure we had zero cases for 6 months and no lockdown during that period. If every country had done so we would have cleared the virus in six weeks. It could still be done but it won’t be. If the vaccination strategy fails through emerging variants, which is entirely possible, we are back to the beginning.
– “If the vaccination strategy fails through emerging variants, which is entirely possible, we are back to the beginning.”
Precisely. Nearly every country has just demonstrated themselves to be too wishy-washy to snuff it out. It’s just as well it’s only a virus rather than an enemy that can think and plan – though such enemies are fully capable of deploying viruses if they wish.
National security? What national security?
