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Fred: Would that “other place” be Squonk’s blog, where your constant lying, trolling and mischief-making got the comments section shut down?
The same place where the host requested that you desist or leave, but you kept pestering him and it anyway, with your particular brand of cynical deception?
Just so we’re clear about which particular place we’re talking about, you understand.
– “I said that viruses which kill their hosts don’t last long on the evolutionary tree. […] Will you admit I predicted Omicron over a year in advance?”
Omicron kills its hosts. It kills a lot less of those vaccinated. I reckon Omicron has mildly killed nearly 10,000 people in the UK so far.
So, no.
Fred, can you assure me that when people have had symptomless infection or have recovered, that they have actually cleared the virus? There’s no one with any left hanging around and multiplying in the kidneys, gut, heart, nervous system, gonads, brain, T-cells etc? ‘Cos I think it’s been found in all those organs, long after infection.
– “He is proven wrong almost 100% of the time, but never admits it.”
He just spouts blatant untruths, and seems to hope that if he does it smugly enough no one will dare point it out.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/#graph-deaths-daily
Dec 29, 74 deaths per day, ramping up to Jan 18, 274 deaths per day, that’s 20 days, so say:
20 times (74 + 274)/2 = ~3,500
Jan 19, 269 deaths per day, ramping down to Feb 6, 245 deaths per day, that’s 18 days, so:
18 times (269 + 245)/2 = ~4,600
Eight thousand or so. If it’s anything like accidents, well, ten times as many end up badly hurt, injured or disabled.
And this is going to stop, is it fred? And it won’t get worse again? Promise?
US life expectancy has fallen below China’s for the first time.
– “Before I congratulate you for your amazing clairvoyance…”
SA, you fell for it! Beware the mindbending power of presupposition.
How many would it have killed without the vaccination programme? You know, those vaccines that fred doesn’t directly say are useless. Oh no, he implies it with “I have nothing against vaccines which work” – another deception by just pushing the untruth out of the immediate frame; he’s a master at it. If the deaths would have been, say, mildly ten times worse without vaccination, that’s over 70,000 they’ve saved in the last two months.
Fred, have you no shame?
It really is impressive. Fred doesn’t directly make the assertions “the vaccines don’t work” and “Omicron doesn’t kill anyone” – which would probably prompt readers to question them.
Nothing so obvious. Instead, he indirectly invokes two pieces of widespread folklore – a longstanding one that viruses always evolve so as not to kill their hosts, and the very recent one that Omicron is “mild”. Incredibly, the reality, that an appalling death rate has been reduced by vaccinations to merely terrible and future variants might be worse, is displaced by what we’d all love to be true, that the latest variant is almost harmless and it’ll all be fine from now on.
But if so, the programme of vaccinations does nothing and wouldn’t be needed anyway. And suddenly we’re only a hair’s breadth away from “so it’s all just a hoax for Bill Gates”, though fred leaves that assertion unsaid and thus unlikely to be noticed, too.
These are proper con-artist skills, fred. Where did you learn them?
There’s just one thing. You wouldn’t be able to pull this off if those two misleading memes hadn’t been widely circulated by others. You need the rumours to ride or it wouldn’t work. And by riding them you also circulate and reinforce them; you participate.
It reminds me of the widespread public misconception that the 2003 US-UK attack upon and occupation of Iraq killed only about 10,000 people, when the documented, counted deaths were 140,000 and an academic survey using a standard method estimated 650,000. The corporate media; the sanitisers of mass death.
Let’s keep a perspective on this and use the ONS data which can be found here.
I don’t know why they have changed the presentation format of the data between week ending 31 Dec 2021 and “2022 edition of this dataset” but nonetheless the deaths from covid are falling to the same order of magnitude as flu (though still higher for direct cause and lower for “involved .”) Remember both are vaccinated for.
If the relative risk from covid begins to equal that of flu then it is a legitimate question to ask why we control (as in restrictions) for covid and not for flu. I am not accounting for long covid in that statement although I suspect that that is something we will have to deal with down the line.
Let me be clear. It is easy in hindsight to say what ought to have been done knowing how the outcome turned out, it’s not so easy to determine the right course of action at the time. I agree with Clark, if the world had properly locked down like some jurisdictions did, we’d have been rid of it in 6-8 weeks. That didn’t happen. Now we are stuck with it endemically. Whilst again, I agree with Clark that it could be eradicated I don’t believe that the world will agree to do so and consequently we will have to accept Sars-Cov-2 as an endemic disease.
So far, humanity has not been eradicated by any infectious disease. Whilst I do not want my agreement with Fred to mean that I align with Fred I think that on the balance of probabilities (civil case level of evidence) covid is likely to become milder. The criminal level of evidence, beyond reasonable doubt, has not been yet prooved.Now don’t you fall for it too, ET.
– “…I said that viruses which kill their hosts don’t last long on the evolutionary tree”
– “So far, humanity has not been eradicated by any infectious disease”
OK covid isn’t on course to wipe out its hosts, but Omicron is certainly killing many of its hosts. What proportion of its hosts does it have to kill to qualify as “a virus that kills its hosts”? In Bulgaria, covid has shown itself capable of killing nearly 1% of its hosts over a couple of years.
OK covid isn’t on course to wipe out its hosts, but Omicron is certainly killing many of its hosts. What proportion of its hosts does it have to kill to qualify as “a virus that kills its hosts”? In Bulgaria, covid has shown itself capable of killing nearly 1% of its hosts over a couple of years.
It might help if you think of Omicron as a vaccine against Delta rather than a disease. It’s a lot like the Pfizer vaccine except it is far more effective, it lasts much longer and even the poorest people in the poorest countries can afford it. Yes there is some risk attached but I’m told there is risk with all vaccines.
Clark :”Fred, have you no shame? “
No he has not.
So why don’t you stop making excuses for this miserable, cowardly old fraud, saying that he “likes the cut and thrust of debate” etc., and simply deal with the sly troll for what he is.
Look at the latest offering – Omicron is “an affordable vaccine”. Ok, it kills some people, but F is “told that there is some risk with all vaccines”.
Only an outright liar or a completely ignorant fool could say something like that.
It might help whom fred?
It would certainly help the virus. It helps rich governments shirk their humanitarian responsibility to help poorer populations. It helps big pharma conceal their technology, concentrate production upon the most profitable markets and extort most money from what’s left. It helps companies get people back to work and back to spending in the shops and venues; back to higher profits and higher payments to shareholders.
I can’t see it helping anyone’s health.
Big differences between vaccines and viruses are that (1) vaccines can’t reproduce, thereby proliferating and spreading from organ to organ within your body. And (2), they therefore can’t mutate into new, unpredictable variants. Oh, and (3) viruses carry far, far more risk, which vaccines hugely reduce. I’m also pretty sure that vaccines don’t provoke your immune system to kill a load of your own cells like viral infection does.
Fred, how did you learn the propaganda techniques you deploy?
I shouldn’t be so amazed really; it’s thin stuff compared with Derren Brown, for instance.
Fred – Omicron imparts immunity “which lasts much longer” than that from vaccines.
Let’s see; the immunity imparted by the Pfizer jab lasted about five or six months I think, but Omicron emerged only three months ago. So on what facts about the immunity imparted by Omicron is this claim based?
Come to think of it, upon what facts are the “Omicron is less severe” narrative based? I linked to scientific studies to substantiate that the virus continues to replicate in multiple organs even after “recovery”, and I’ve cited statistical evidence that Omicron does indeed kill many of its hosts, so…
Evidence please.
Clark: “Evidence please.”
The only evidence Lyin’ Fred needs is to see you getting all worked up as a result of his trolling. That makes his miserable life worthwhile. Jolly sporting of you to oblige, I have to say.
“It might help if you think of Omicron as a vaccine against Delta rather than a disease. ”
What a silly comment Fred. Can you imagine a virus that kills up to 1% of people as an acceptable vaccine? Are you that completely oblivious of the implications of what you say. And yeah of course it is good enough for those poor developing countries who can’t afford the real vaccines because we are so greedy that we want to give boosters and fourth doses at the expense of poor nations. And yes of course, the current vaccines that have minuscule deaths as side effects are as safe as Omicron.
Note I think Fred is trying to wind us up, don’t take him seriously.SA: “Note I think Fred is trying to wind us up, don’t take him seriously.”
Finally!
I prefer the real anti-vaxxers, dangerous lunatics though they might be – at least they are genuine. But Fred practices any form of deception simply in order to make others unhappy – he is one sick puppy.
Talking of anti-vaxxers, a bunch of them were waving placards at motorway traffic from a bridge last Sunday, urging us not to be part of a “mass experiment”, and others did the usual thing of writing lots of things in tiny letters on their signs. A strange way to spend one’s Sunday morning.
“Now don’t you fall for it too, ET.”
I cannot find my post now but some time back in a previous covid-related thread I said that historically all pandemics ended. It’s an easy assertion to make as it is self-evidently true.
Deaths involving influenza and pneumonia 2256 2469 2273 2153 Deaths due to influenza and pneumonia 439 485 427 395 Deaths involving COVID-19 922 1382 1484 1385 Deaths due to COVID-19 712 1070 1082 986 Those are from the ONS data I posted above weeks 1 to 4. It only refers to deaths and there is no consideration of sequalae from surviving covid or flu.
“It might help if you think of Omicron as a vaccine against Delta rather than a disease. “
It may help you Fred but it isn’t going to make it true. Delta has been and gone. Whether it confers some immunity against future variants is more important however the Denmark genome studies have shown significant omicron reinfection within a short timeframe so it isn’t looking good. It was well established from previous studies long before Sars-Cov-2 was a thing that reinfection with what were the 4 endemic coronaviruses was common. Infection with coronaviruses doesn’t necessarily confer future immunity to even the same strain let alone new variants.
– “…historically all pandemics ended.”
Presumably yes*, all pandemics get past the rapid spread with widespread illness stage, and settle into something less extreme – a circulating illness, which maybe flares up at times.
But you can still be left with a circulating illness with serious consequences that it’s best to avoid if you can. There are quite a lot like that, and covid may turn out to be another, if it turns out to cripple your T cells or take ten years off your life each time you catch it or something.
* Strictly, I suppose there might have been pandemics that caused the extinction of an entire host species, possibly causing the extinction of the virus too; I wouldn’t know. SARS-CoV-2 is now in lots of species, all of which will presumably go extinct eventually and when they do, SARS-CoV-2 may have played a role.
Denmark genome studies have shown significant omicron reinfection within a short timeframe so it isn’t looking
Delta gives no protection against Omicron, it seems the vaccine gives no protection against Omicron but that Omicron gives protection against Delta is quite evident. In future we may get a strain more virulent than Omicron but to be more virulent it will have to be less severe.
In many parts of the world goverments are using Covid as an excuse to take away the people’s freedoms, to introduce digital IDs, to give themselves the right to place entire populations under house arrest, to force people to have things injected into their bodies against their will. The doom, gloom and fear merchants are their allies.
“Delta gives no protection against Omicron, it seems the vaccine gives no protection against Omicron but that Omicron gives protection against Delta is quite evident. In future we may get a strain more virulent than Omicron but to be more virulent it will have to be less severe.”
Fred will you stop this pseudoscientific authoritative-sounding gobbledygook? You don’t even seem to understand what the meaning of “virulent” is. Why are you wasting our time here?
“Omicron gives protection against Delta”
In what way? Omnicron doesn’t, it seems, give great personal immunity from reinfection with either delta or omnicron itself. Are you stretching the meaning of protection to infer that by becoming the dominant strain omnicron protected us from delta? This is not mediated by immunity.
As SA points out, Fred, you need to research the meaning of virulence where it relates to infectious agents. Greater virulence means greater propensity to cause more severe disease not greater transmissibility. Transmissibility and virulence are not interchangeable terms and mean different things.
Isn’t dumbing down a wonderful thing?
The things fred says; they’re all doing the rounds. I’ve encountered them all elsewhere. I don’t know if any of them are in the corporate media, but I’ve had some of them said to me, and they’re on social media. Mostly, I suppose, it’s just wishful thinking, but it’s not very nice being called a doom, gloom and fear merchant and an ally of authoritarian governments; I’m fed up with the pandemic too, and I’d rather not be vilified for wanting to avoid infection.
Globally, it looks like the Omicron peak is subsiding rapidly, which seems hopeful.
F: “… themselves the right to place entire populations under house arrest, to force people to have things injected into their bodies against their will “
Hmm. Possibly I was entirely wrong about Fred. I took him for a miserable fraud, nothing but a wind-up. But given this recent performance, it’s pretty clear he actually is stupid enough to think he had a valid point here.
May I offer my apologies for being taken in – I mistook his stupidity for a genuine wish to deceive.
This is the Dunning-Kruger effect as well demonstrated as any textbook example could conceive.
https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740
