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SA – “Unwanted”: Why unwanted? “Controversial”: Why is it controversial?
It’s unwanted because some group of protesters don’t want it. It’s controversial because this group of protesters keep raising controversy over it.
There. Fred’s weasel words satisfy the formula for merely linguistic truthfulness, and therefore he can slip his false implications that the vaccines are unnecessary and highly dangerous into an on-line forum. He should have got a job with a cosmetics company, helping their marketing stay just within the advertising regulations.
Unwanted: Why unwanted? There is sufficient proof to say that vaccination has led to reduction of death from covid and leading to easing of measures whilst being very safe.
Obviously the people out protesting are protesting because they don’t want it, as a large number of people in the British health service, including consultants, don’t want it.
The vaccine doesn’t stop you getting covid, it doesn’t stop you passing covid on, it is being used on an emergency licence, it is known to cause blood clots in adults and heart problems in children.
So how come you never made a fuss about it until the pandemic? NHS staff have been required to be vaccinated for years. You’re objecting to all those requirements? Or just the latest one?
The NHS have been insisting Canadian truck drivers and the entire population of Austria are vaccinated? I didn’t know that. The UK government backed down on mandatory covid vaccination for British health workers.
I didn’t had a friend turned into a vegetable by the hepatitis B vaccine putting two blood clots into his brain.
It’s crazy all right. The question is, why are you promoting it?
You are so trusting Clark. You trust politicians, you trust governments to only have the welfare of the people at heart. You trust the corporations to not put profit before people and you trust research establishments to not care about losing their funding if their findings are not what the politicians and drug companies want to hear.
I’m glad you have so much faith in the establishment and will be happy to remind you of it in years to come.
No fred, I don’t trust governments or corporations. I trust evidence and reason. Look at this graph – an archived copy to keep it static:
I could have used a “death from all causes” graph – local, national, from a European monitoring agency or whatever – the humps in the curves will tell much the same tale. Note that the peaks in deaths coincide with the waves of covid (shown further up the page), and note that the excess death rate beyond mid 2021 is greatly reduced. The reduction is the effect of vaccination. You can confirm that vaccination is responsible by comparing with less vaccinated populations in other countries.
Now look at these graphs of vaccination. Unfortunately, the archived versions have a technical problem:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations
We do not see excess deaths tracking these vaccination curves, so vaccinations are not causing large numbers of deaths. Death is not the only negative effect; I could have used hospital admission data.
And that’s what I need to know. The vaccinations greatly reduce risk and damage from covid, and any harm they may do is so minor that it doesn’t even show.
Here’s me displaying my “trust” in governments (link):
– “The UK government has just trashed the UK’s bio-security under the gaze of every hostile actor in the world […] The UK is in a perilous state with hospitals overloaded, a huge proportion of staff in all sectors falling ill, delays, shortages, backlogs etc.”
It seems rather that you trust the UK government’s original policy of letting it rip through the population.
– “The vaccine doesn’t stop you getting covid,”
It reduces the chances, and greatly reduces the severity of covid for those who catch it.
– “it doesn’t stop you passing covid on,”
It reduces the chances.
– “it is being used on an emergency licence,”
Because there’s an emergency.
– “it is known to cause blood clots in adults and heart problems in children.”
Very rarely, whereas catching covid causes both far more frequently.
A few people get trapped in vehicle fires by seatbelts. Thousands are saved from injury and death by seatbelts. When the government proposed compulsory fitting of seatbelts, the vehicle industry objected, saying that people would be trapped in burning vehicles. Really, the industry was just trying to avoid spending money on safety.
And here’s an example (link) of my “trust” in corporations:
– “[Fred] should have got a job with a cosmetics company, helping their marketing stay just within the advertising regulations.”
“The UK government backed down on mandatory covid vaccination for British health workers.”
The legislation, which applies to England only, remains on the books. The devolved administrations will make their own decisions. Sajid Javid announced a “consultation” process in parliament and stated that mandatory vaccination was the correct approach for delta but no longer proportionate for omnicron.
“Given those dramatic changes, it is not only right but responsible to revisit the balance of risks and opportunities that guided our original decision last year. While vaccination remains our very best line of defence against covid-19, I believe that it is no longer proportionate to require vaccination as a condition of deployment through statute. So today I am announcing that we will launch a consultation on ending vaccination as a condition of deployment in health and all social care settings.”
Elsewhere in that statement to the house he stated:
“Some basic facts remain. Vaccines save lives, and everyone working in health and social care has a professional duty to be vaccinated against covid-19.” Also “I have written to professional regulators operating across health to ask them to urgently review current guidance to registrants on vaccinations including covid-19 to emphasise their professional responsibilities in this respect.”
That leaves everyone with a lack of clarity, doctors, nurses, dentists, Operating department assistants, other health care workers as well as employers ie.NHS administrations or care home employers. The professional bodies like the GMC and NMC may see that “professional responsibility” and translate that to mandatory for the purposes of approving license to practice through the appraisal system. It also leaves open the route for third parties to resort to legal challenges against non-vaccinated healthcare workers and/or hospital administrations because they didn’t fulfil their “professional responsibility” or enforce it.
So say your relative caught covid in a hospital where some nurses or doctors or other staff were not vaccinated, there would be an legal avenue to pursue relating to the staff not fulfiling their professional responsibility and the hospital administration for not enforcing it.So basically no one knows wtf is going on nor where they stand. One could argue it is a fudge deliberately lacking clarity to make the government look good by appearing to listen to the anti-mandatory vaccination lobby whilst leaving other non-governmental avenues of enforcement wide open and leaving everyone none the wiser as to their actual status.
Fred
“The NHS have been insisting Canadian truck drivers and the entire population of Austria are vaccinated? I didn’t know that. The UK government backed down on mandatory covid vaccination for British health workers.
I didn’t had a friend turned into a vegetable by the hepatitis B vaccine putting two blood clots into his brain.”
This makes very little sense, could you please explain what you meant by this. I am asking because if I understand correctly some of what could be construed by what you wrote could be seriously misleading so please explain.
SA: It doesn’t make much sense. There are reasons for this – Fred doesn’t make much sense, and his English is rather poor (despite his complete ignorance of any other language).
In any case, there are significant reasons to doubt what he’s trying to say.
For one thing, he’s incapable of telling the truth. For another, he lies all the time. But perhaps most significantly, he doesn’t have any friends.
A few people get trapped in vehicle fires by seatbelts. Thousands are saved from injury and death by seatbelts. When the government proposed compulsory fitting of seatbelts, the vehicle industry objected, saying that people would be trapped in burning vehicles. Really, the industry was just trying to avoid spending money on safety.
You put your seatbelt on when you get into a car, you take it off when you get out and your body is still the same. It doesn’t have any holes in it, it doesn’t have any experimental substances floating around in it. That isn’t a human rights issue. Mandatory vaccination is a human rights issue, the vaccine isn’t tried and tested, the long term effects are not known. What is known is the vaccine gives very limited and short lived protection against the Omicron variant.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evades-immunity-from-past/
So say your relative caught covid in a hospital where some nurses or doctors or other staff were not vaccinated, there would be an legal avenue to pursue relating to the staff not fulfiling their professional responsibility and the hospital administration for not enforcing it.
In the real world my relative caught covid in a care home after old people, including those testing positive for covid, were thrown out of hospitals to make way for the young in the overwhelming deluge of pressures on the NHS the experts predicted but which never came.
Fred, I have stated clearly that I do not agree with mandatory vaccination, not just in this thread but also in other threads on these forums. I agree that the seatbelt is not an apt analogy. I have also stated in these forums that legal action will happen against the policy you have stated and indeed it has begun. I sincerely hope they succeed. It was an abominably short sighted policy.
I guarantee, in the real world, health care staff and NHS hospital administrations will be legally challenged for not fulfilling their “professional duty” or for not enforcing what the government says is a professional duty. It will take a little time but it is going to happen. You stated that the UK government has backed down on mandatory vaccination. What I have said is that they have appeared to do so but in “the real world” all they have done is confuse everything and everyone, and shirked responsibility and shifted it to healthcare staff, the hospital, primary care and care home administrations and the relevant regulatory bodies. If government was sincere they would have legislated that employers could not mandate vaccination as a condition of employment.
Also, in the real world Fred, my mother died from covid in a care home in Jan 2021. Those of my family in Ireland were unable to be with her until the day on which she died. Those of us not living in Ireland were unable to attend the funeral because of restrictions in UK/Ireland/IOM. So keep your vitriolic sarcastic “in the real world” shite to yourself.
Fred, no one here has argued for mandatory vaccination. Myself and ET have stated our opposition to it.
You wrote: “…the vaccine gives very limited and short lived protection against the Omicron variant.”
Infection with Omicron gives very limited and short lived protection against Omicron:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.25.22269794v1.full.pdf
You wrote: “the vaccine isn’t tried and tested, the long term effects are not known.”
Many long term effects of covid are already evident; below is one link, but I could post dozens; try #LongCovid and #LongCovidKids on Twitter. Other long term effects could show up as more time passes. We can discover how long they might last only as more time passes.
https://twitter.com/hjelle_brian/status/1491905761076649986/photo/1
What is absolutely certain is that the virus replicates in the host’s body whereas the vaccines cannot; by design, they lack all the genetic material necessary for reproduction. Live virus has been found in tissue samples of many different organs, months after “full recovery”. If the virus is still replicating in your body, it can still produce symptoms and illness.
Modelling of Omicron variants suggest that though the acute illness may be less severe, Omicron could be better at infecting other organs and thus be more likely to cause long term symptoms.
– “We didn’t know it in 1981 when we found out about AIDS, but most of those patients had experienced an acute fever caused by HIV years prior, that resolved. What if that were how we discovered HIV? We’d say nasty fever, but it’s all fine now.”
https://twitter.com/hjelle_brian/status/1491920577275174913
You wrote: “…the overwhelming deluge of pressures on the NHS the experts predicted but which never came.”
But it did come fred. Maybe it didn’t come to a town near you, and maybe that’s all you care about. But it did come, and we know from other countries that it would have been worse without the lockdowns.
Fred, you’re promoting lies, lies about suffering and death, lies that have spread suffering and death. Two of my local Quaker group had covid and died. A friend’s mum died of it. One friend of mine had six friends of his die of it. Another friend of mine was working in a care home as twenty residents died. She got it herself, and when she got back to work the chef had died.
For every one of those people who died, several more were hospitalised; hospitals were filled to overflowing and patients had to be moved. A hospital near me had to ration the oxygen:
Fred, I think you have been writing without thinking. Earlier you wrote: “I didn’t had [sic] a friend turned into a vegetable by the hepatitis B vaccine putting two blood clots into his brain”, but elsewhere you wrote that a friend of yours got blood clots due to the AstraZeneca covid vaccination. Was it covid vaccination, hepatitis B vaccination, or were these really two separate incidents of blood clots caused by vaccination? SA even asked you about that statement, but you simply ignored it.
You’ve been setting the agenda for days now. You show zero curiosity about any of the evidence you have been presented with; you have accepted, explored or questioned none of it. You don’t answer questions, you never respond, and when your claims are refuted you merely change the subject.
It seems to be pointless trying to hold a discussion with you, but the untruths you promote must not be left unchallenged because they cause suffering and death. You are wasting the time; of SA who seems to be a medical scientist, ET who seems to work in healthcare, and myself. It is necessary to suppress the ill-founded, misleading bullshit that you promote, and since you seem impervious to reason and you consistently avoid rational debate, I conclude that it is acceptable, and unfortunately necessary, to censor you.
With power comes responsibility, and since you evade all responsibility, sadly, you must be deprived of the power to influence others. As you wrote to Macky once, “what I do is abuse on the internet. What you do is abuse of the internet”.
Your suggestion has been noted, Clark. While most of Fred’s assertions and opinions could be integrated into a reasonable discussion, he is at times being evasive in his responses and some of his comments could be perceived as obtuse and provocative. The trolling tactics have been noted, and he has been on pre-mod for the last few days.
Several former contributors with a similar attitude were ultimately banned, following multiple warnings, for mis-using the discussion forum as a bulletin board for propaganda campaigns and disrupting reasonable discussions among other participants. If you believe Fred should join the list of exclusions, please start a new topic in the Blog Support Forum and make your case there.
With power comes responsibility, and since you evade all responsibility, sadly, you must be deprived of the power to influence others. As you wrote to Macky once, “what I do is abuse on the internet. What you do is abuse of the internet”.
Have I told anyone to FOAD on this thread? Despite all the personal abuse directed at me?
You knew that was what I was referring to when I was speaking to Macky why did you quote me out of context?
You asked me a question:
So how come you never made a fuss about it until the pandemic? NHS staff have been required to be vaccinated for years. You’re objecting to all those requirements? Or just the latest one?
I answered it. The vaccines NHS staff have been required to take as a condition of their employment actually provide immunity to the disease and don’t cause blood clots, they, tried and tested and licenced.
There has never been mandatory vaccination of NHS workers, there is no law that NHS workers must be vaccinated. All there is is GMC guidance. Health boards will not offer employment to certain staff who carry out Exposure Prone Procedures unless they have immunity to Hepatitis B. That in no way sets precedence for government mandated vaccination of truckers.
Also, in the real world Fred, my mother died from covid in a care home in Jan 2021. Those of my family in Ireland were unable to be with her until the day on which she died. Those of us not living in Ireland were unable to attend the funeral because of restrictions in UK/Ireland/IOM. So keep your vitriolic sarcastic “in the real world” shite to yourself.
My apologies.
This makes very little sense, could you please explain what you meant by this. I am asking because if I understand correctly some of what could be construed by what you wrote could be seriously misleading so please explain.
It’s easy enough. A friend and neighbour of mine collapsed last spring shortly after receiving a covid vaccination. He was taken to Edinburgh and then to Liverpool where he was operated on to remove a blood clot from his brain. During the operation the surgeon found it was in fact two blood clots. Last I heard which was a few weeks ago he was in Raigmore Inverness with no signs of improvement.
I know someone else who visits me from England from time to time who had blood clots in his leg after receiving the vaccine, though that has done no lasting harm.
I’ve had many vaccines throughout my life and never had, nor known anyone who had harmful effects so must conclude that the covid vaccine carries more risk than other vaccines and the decision to take it must be made by the individual not by government mandate or coercion.
** Mods ** – thank you for noting my concerns. Fred seems to be responding for now and previous moderation decisions about other commenters have seemed sensible to me, so I won’t open a Support Forum thread at present.
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[ Mod: Thanks, Clark, it should be fixed now. The original text was contiguous, which is why it was all formatted as a single paragraph.Please ensure that sections of quoted text are placed in their own paragaph. Paragraphs starting “You Wrote:” need to be split into separate paragraphs so they can be indented correctly. In such cases, the moderators have ot make a judgment call about how to indent the quotation.
Fred, thank you for responding to questions; you have mentioned two people vaccinated against covid but unfortunately there are still some loose ends.
You repeatedly refer to “the covid vaccination” but actually there are many different vaccines, using diverse technologies, of which a few have been deployed in the UK. As best I understand it, it’s the AstraZeneca vaccine that sometimes causes blood clots. Using the faults of a specific vaccine to argue against all covid vaccination is an invalid and misleading argument technique; it muddies the water and promotes unwarranted FUD*. Please stop mashing different issues together in this manner.
It is also important to note that covid itself causes blood clots far more frequently than vaccination with AstraZeneca does; even for the AstraZeneca, the risk-to-benefit ratio remains decisively in favour of getting vaccinated.
I shouldn’t have to write this, but please note that my above argument is for good information and understanding, not for mandatory vaccination, which I oppose.
* Your following paragraph also obfuscates some matters, and mashes various issues together:
– “There has never been mandatory vaccination of NHS workers, there is no law that NHS workers must be vaccinated. All there is is GMC guidance. Health boards will not offer employment to certain staff who carry out Exposure Prone Procedures unless they have immunity to Hepatitis B. That in no way sets precedence for government mandated vaccination of truckers.”
1) The GMC guidance amounts to a similar effect to a law. I agree that GMC guidance would be a better method, and immunity would be a better criteria than vaccination.
2) I thought mandatory vaccination of truckers was a Canadian government decision, so it seems obtuse to mash this in with some bad legislation from Westminster.
You also wrote:
“I didn’t had a friend turned into a vegetable by the hepatitis B vaccine putting two blood clots into his brain”.
You eventually responded to SA’s question about this, but referred to two people who received covid vaccination. Please confirm that your reference to a hepatitis B vaccination was simply a mistake.
As I think I have said before, I am sorry about your friend. Did he, as I suspect, receive the AstraZeneca vaccine? And your visitor from England; was that the AstraZeneca too?
Incidentals: respect to you for apologising to ET. In answer to your question to me, I don’t actually remember how Macky provoked your retort which I quoted. I quoted it back at you because I remember thinking at the time that it was a highly appropriate response, but one which you should be reminded of in the current context.
“There has never been mandatory vaccination of NHS workers, there is no law that NHS workers must be vaccinated. All there is is GMC guidance. Health boards will not offer employment to certain staff who carry out Exposure Prone Procedures unless they have immunity to Hepatitis B…….and don’t have Hep C or HIV.”
Exposure Prone Procedures effectively means anyone who may have direct contact with patients’ blood or blood-stained body fluids. So anyone handling any body fluid samples, cleaning rooms etc etc. In a hospital setting or primary care setting that practically means anyone clinical or anyone who may come into contact with samples or body fluids such as health care assistants, porters, lab staff, ambulance staff and mortuary staff. That is everyone except non-clinical admin staff. It would also include police and prison staff in other settings. There is no law but there might as well be.
It’s not just GMC guidance or health boards. It is effectively mandatory even if it’s not legislated for in parliament and has the same effect as law. Personally, I think you’d be mad not to have it (Hep B vaccination). Covid vaccinations will come under the same “professional duty/responsibility” requirement. To the person losing their job it makes no difference whether that was by enacted legislation or employment policy or regulatory body “best practice.”
Government should come clean by either making it law to mandate vaccination or making it law to outlaw mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment.
Using the faults of a specific vaccine to argue against all covid vaccination is an invalid and misleading argument technique; it muddies the water and promotes unwarranted FUD*. Please stop mashing different issues together in this manner.
I was actually arguing against mandatory vaccination in Canada and disagreeing with SA that mandatory vaccination was the same as the smoking ban. You then snipped the middle six words out of a sentence in my reply to him and implied I was a hypocrite for never complaining about heath workers in the UK having to be vaccinated against hepatitis B. I didn’t mention any of the covid vaccines by name, just my reason for opposing mandatory vaccination of truck drivers.
Now to get back to the subject of authoritarian governments. Canada has now invoked emergency legislation and is threatening to use anti-terrorist legislation to freeze the bank accounts of peaceful protesters, plus the bank accounts of their supporters. I would very strongly oppose that happening in Britain, even to protesters who choose to break the law.
*** Mods *** Thanks for indenting paragraphs. Sorry about my omitted close emphasis tag in comment #85222; I have been trying to be more careful, as advised, and that was my first error in a while. However, in indenting that quote you have included some of my reply to fred in with my quotation of him. The quote of fred ends with the close quotation mark.
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[ Mod: Thanks for the tip-off, Clark. It should be fixed now.In general, you should place sections of quoted text in separate paragraphs. The quote was originally embedded inline in a contiguous paragraph that started “You also wrote”; it therefore had to be split into separate paragraphs to indent the quotation. Constructions like “You wrote … ” impel moderators to make judgement calls about paragraph splits. And sometimes it goes wrong. C’est la vie. ]
Fred, has a friend of yours suffered blood clots following the hepatitis B vaccine, as you claimed in this comment?
Please read more carefully before responding so that you can respond to what was actually said to you. And if you think that pretending covid is harmless, hasn’t strained the NHS, and that vaccination against it is more dangerous than the disease itself; if you think that promoting such fallacies is a valid way of protecting the right to protest from an authoritarian government in Canada, then your rationality would seem to be failing you. Please reflect for a while; please think more rather than reflexively fighting.
