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This was originally posted as a response on “The High Road to Independence” on the main board. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/03/the-high-road-to-independence/
It was viewed as “Off Topic” by the mods. Mods make such decisions within their privilege. I would be interested to hear criticisms.
…..”As you well know Mr. Murray, international law only works when those under those laws stick to those laws. Judgements, good or bad, are the privilege of the victors or the all powerful.
In the east of Ukraine there was a clear time line, short I agree, were Luhansk and
DonbasDonetsk ceded from Ukraine and then Russian boots officially went in as an SMO to defend the two Oblasts.
Let’s not forget the civil war after 2014, described as an anti terrorist operation by Kyiev, had claimed 15000 dead. A civil war I have no doubt had Russian supplies in the war zone.In Crimea the Russian boots went in first, and Crimea ceded from Ukraine afterwards. Yes, it was under military annexation, but I see little evidence, then or since, of hostility to Russians in Crimea. The argument that the votes were coerced doesn’t appear to have a great deal in support. It is a stronger argument that those in Crimea voted to endorse what had happened.
The Russians turned the water supply back on don’t forget, unlike Kyiev who had turned it off.Crimeans have a right to agree to whatever they want, to date they seem content. Including support for what could easily be described as ‘show elections’. The referenda was nonsense to you, but made sense to those on the ground.
There again, it’s not the only historical election result you have dismissed, is it…_”I had originally posted …..”@ Bayard,
Craig still claims that Russias ‘Special Military Operation’ is illegal under international law. That can only hold water if you don’t accept the areas of Ukraine who voted to leave Ukraine, had the same right that Craig demands for Scotland, was granted to Kosovo and is ignored with Taiwan…_”Followed by Craig responding…. “Not true at all Digger. As I state quite clearly, the ICJ judgment on Kosovo says very clearly that territorial integrity only applies with regard to other states. So Ukraine’s right to territorial integrity does apply vis a vis Russia.
The referenda under military occupation were of course a nonsense anyway. But if those territories were occupied by a different people wishing to become an Independent state, they might well have a right to self determination. They don’t have a “right” to agree Russian annexation, that isn’t self determination.”I would be interested in how other posters see these intricate matters.
Thank you, DiggerUK…_One could equally argue that the Falkland Islands were under British occupation when they voted in a referendum to remain British and therefore the vote was invalid. Good luck with that.
The Russians for years paid the Ukraine millions of dollars to station their troops in the Crimea and Sabastapol and for years nobody complained.
In 2014 several bus loads left Crimea for Kiev to protest the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Victor Yanacovitch. On the way home the coaches were stopped by a group of neo nazies who smashed the coaches and attacked their occupants causing severe damage and injuries. It was only after they limped home and told their story that the referendum was called. At this point the nazies sabotaged the electricity supply and blocked the canal that sent water to the farmers in Crimea. And you wonder why the people of Crimea voted to return to Russia.
Never forget that Crimea had been part of Russia since the mid 1700,s, longer in fact than the USA has existed, and only became part of the Ukraine in 1954 under the direction of the Communist Dictator Kruschev who did not hold a referendum of any sort
I can’t comment on the legality of war because I don’t know what laws govern war. I Know that military intervention is only legal under UN authorization. Apparently this is the reason why the Russian government calls it a special military operation, and not a war. Erdoğan also called his actions a military operation in November 2022, when he invaded Syria. By the way, no one raised a fuss about that, and no one is concerned that Erdoğan wants to get rid of the Syrian Kurds living on the border with Turkey.
On the legality of independence or secession – the UN resolution on self-determination was developed as far back as 1960. Actually it aimed at British Empire and some other old European countries to free their colonies.
It is all about colonialism.In general, it seems that we have no other international legislation other than this, and this legislation doesn’t fully describe or apply to Scotland, Catalonia or the Crimea. The trick is in wordings.
I see it like that outdated legislation does not fit the modern world.
There is no appetite to change the law itself, because disputed territories can be found in every country. Countries that have lost their colonies are now not interested in updating the law, because they can now lose their regions. Britain may lose Scotland, Spain may lose Catalonia, others are probably afraid of something too. So the law is defended as it is, defended persistently and even aggressively, look at the discussion in that thread.Since we have anti-colonial legislation, it has affected all discussions. For example, the USSR is called an empire, although it was the Union.
Or, the resolution says:“2. All people have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right <b>they freely determine their political status</b> and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
The opponents of the union of Crimea and Russia constantly miss this, and argue that everyone should only want independence, as if Russia and Crimea is the same as Belgium and Congo, or Britain and India.
It seems my original post has been de off topiced, I’m beginning to wonder if it is comparable to being de arrested by the police. It’s a first for me!
There is a first time for everything, but post did wander off from the thread agenda slightly. But I am more than happy to discuss the legality of this extension of the civil war which followed the Maidan Coup.I’m slightly surprised nobody spotted my ‘deliberate geography malfunction’ in para 2. Could mods avoid my blushes and correct. Thank you…_
Hypocrisy is the elephant in the room. Some have the rights and others have to follow the so called constitution.
When it suits us we go for UN but when we don’t like it we go with the Country’s ‘ constitution’. In most
countries secessionism is Illegal according to the Constitution!Pigeon English
in USSR the Crimea was autonomous republic, and the city of Sebastopol was autonomous city, governed directly from Moscow. In this status they were passed to Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Independent Ukraine wrote a Constitution for themselves and there they are an unitary state. They debated the status of the Crimea for several times, but the question is – was the Ukrainian constitution legal denying Crimea of their autonomy?The blogosphere is not short of comment at the conclusion of the China Russia talks with Putin and Xi today.
Much of the comments are full of the zeitgeist phrase “historical significance”. For once I agree that claim is justified. But more on that as time goes by.I post here the Chinese peace proposals for Ukraine, which at first reading seem to have legs. I’ve only speed read them once, but they seem sound enough to me. Any views from you lot.
I’m out the rest of today, talk nice to each other…_https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html
here’s something shocking. I wonder if this is true?
https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/17330711A bill demanding the annexation of Ukrainian territories was submitted to the Romanian Parliament
“Romanian senator Diana Shoshoaca introduced a legislative initiative to parliament calling for the denunciation of the Romanian-Ukrainian treaty signed in 1997 and the annexation of some former Romanian, now Ukrainian territories. This was reported on Tuesday by the site hotnews.ro.
The bill, which was submitted to the Senate on Monday, is called “Law amending law 129/1997 on the ratification of the Treaty on Good Neighborly Relations and Cooperation between Romania and Ukraine.” Article 2 of the draft law states: “Based on Article 27 of the Treaty, it will be denounced by the Romanian side in 2027, subject to a notice period of at least a year before the expiration date.” Article 3 states: “Romania annexes the historical territories that belonged to her, respectively, Northern Bukovina, Hertsa region, Budzhak (Cahul, Bolgrad, Izmail), historical Maramures and Snake Island.”
“Also, with this law, we want to return cultural identity, traditions, customs and religion to the Romanian population, whose number is estimated at about 1 million, including mixed families,” the author of the legislative initiative notes, adding that ethnic Romanians in Ukraine are deprived of the right to study in their native language and are not represented in the Verkhovna Rada.
Lawyer Diana Shoshoaca, following the results of the 2020 elections, was elected to the Senate of Romania (upper house of parliament) from the nationalist party “Alliance for the Unification of Romanians” (AUR), then left it and is currently a member of the extra-parliamentary party “SOS Romania”.
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Hungary again demanded that Ukraine stop the oppression of the Hungarian community in Transcarpathia. Budapest said that “constant and systematic harassment and deprivation of the rights of national minorities are unacceptable”
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/19/01/2023/63c97f119a7947b89ba0657f
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We previously heard that there were plans in Poland to take Galicia.“In Poland, a scandal is gaining momentum around the statement of the former head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the republic, Radoslav Sikorsky. He stated that in Warsaw, at the beginning of the Russian special operation, they allegedly “thought about dividing Ukraine,” since Kyiv “could fall” in the spring of 2022. The current Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki reacted harshly to these words of Sikorsky. The head of the Cabinet indicated that he was waiting for the refutation of “these shameful statements.”
Having read, and reread, the 12 points in the Chinese peace proposals all I can say is that they cover the areas that would need to be discussed in a way that doesn’t close down ‘full and frank’ negotiations and would be a neutral preamble to discussions to ending this very dangerous conflict.
Quoted in a Guardian piece, 21/03/2023, “US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, voiced scepticism over China’s “peace” proposals, warning that they could be a “stalling tactic” to help Russian troops on the ground in Ukraine” I wonder were he got the idea that anybody would get involved in fake peace negotiations.
It’s a short document, not a long read…_
Perhaps Blinken was inspired by the experience of the Minsk fake peace talks? It worked for 8+ years, and many on both sides of the border sincerely hoped that the conflict could be resolved through diplomacy.
Peter Hitchens’ column in the Mail on Sunday, gives a concise overview of how the conflict in Ukraine originated. It makes clear this was an avoidable conflict and was anything but unprovoked.
He gives a clear explanation of how foreign NATO supporting powers encouraged the various ultra nationalist thugs in Ukraine to stage a very open coup. It was that coup which started the civil war.
I was not aware of how entrenched the far right was in Ukraine for some time, I merely viewed them as a group dressing up as nazi doppelgängers. I got that badly wrong.
Why Zelensky got involved with them to the level he did I don’t know. Maybe it’s no more complicated than ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’.PH is what PH is, but his analysis of what was going on in Ukraine is something most hacks won’t go anywhere near. I believe it used to be called the truth…_
Peter Hitchens: The country was misled on a vital matter – and it wasn’t Boris Johnson’s parties (Daily Mail, 1 Apr 2023)
The constant and escalating US-NATO-“Western” push for war utterly disgusts me.
I find it depressing to see how easily the US apparently manipulated Europe. But really, the corporatocracy, the media-military-industrial-security-surveillance-financial complex, had long since dominated both, just the US slightly more so.
This war is the result of pursuing perpetual economic growth in a finite world. To sell new stuff, old stuff has to be used up, destroyed or discarded, and the people need to be distracted, and war does these things very well; Orwell warned of this, as did Huxley.
This is why the US-NATO-“Western” interests oppose all paths to peace.
We naturally look to the horrors of the present, but this war is causing untold future devastation by obstructing the path to emissions reductions, and the longer it goes on and the more it escalates the worse that future destruction will be. Without either side winning or losing, this war could end human civilisation just by continuing.
Macron has been front and centre on the news for his trip to China. I have not seen any claim that it was given the gravitas of a state visit.
For the best part of two days you could be forgiven for failing to realise that one Ms. Von der Leyden was also in China. Even though she is ‘Godmother’ of the EU Capo de Capos, aka, President of the European Commission.
Come to think of it, I know of no occasion when an EC President has ever been afforded a state visit anywhere. And she didn’t get one here.I think the legality of Russias ‘SMO’ has been decided, the ‘prosecuting’ authorities seem to be ready to say ‘no further action will be taken’. But don’t quote me.
Considering Macron negotiated in bad faith at the Minsk peace talks, this seems a massive loss of face for him.
He hasn’t apologised to Russia for Minsk, but the Chinese appear to have made him lose a lot face by getting him there. Putin must be feeling well chuffed at this spectacle…_https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-65186222
https://www.reuters.com/world/high-hopes-china-eu-leaders-prepare-xi-talks-2023-04-06/
A very interesting tit bit on Ursula and her reception and departure from China. Apparently she did not get any official reception on arrival, followed by her departure also being sans officials. She visited and departed on regular flights.
https://twitter.com/f_philippot/status/1644734610654339073?t=uQ-NRw4PVQBHt1ZLHCYR4w&s=19
I wonder if she stopped off in duty free…_
This came up in a random search for comments on the legalities pertaining to Russias ‘SMO’.
The author approaches the issue from a new perspective, one that I don’t dismiss out of hand. Hopefully it gives some of you food for thought.It also speculates on the validity, or not, of the leaked USA documents. I’m more persuaded of their authenticity, but don’t quote me…_
https://sonar21.com/why-putin-may-have-exposed-the-us-nato-ukraine-operations-documents/
