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It is a matter of record that a safety exclusion zone was enforced around WTC7. So in your scheme, Node, what happened to the demolition conspirators mass murder plot? They could blow the pre-rigged WTC7 at any time and kill even more people, but no, they tip off the firefighters and save a few lives, producing a “smoking gun” for Truthers.
There’s no consistency here.
Node, thanks for the apology; genuinely appreciated.
I think that’s a good video from Ioannidis, though I don’t accept his “died of versus died with” distinction, for the reasons SA has given elsewhere; there’s always a proportion of the population with other illnesses.
Quote 1: “A news story of Silverstein desperately making ‘phone calls to arrange a demolition”;
Quote 2: “Shortly before the building collapsed, several NYPD officers and Con-Edison workers told me that Larry Silverstein, the property developer of One World Financial Center was on the phone with his insurance carrier to see if they would authorize the controlled demolition of the building – since its foundation was already unstable and expected to fall.”
Quote 1 is incompatible with quote 2. The reported conversation was “shortly before the building collapsed.” Silverstein wasn’t arranging demolition, he was asking permission to do it. Nobody but you believes demolition could have been planned, arranged and carried out in a few hours. Not even you would claim it could be done in the even shorter interval between Silverstein getting permission from his insurance company and when it fell soon after.
If the reported conversation is accurate, it is further proof that WTC7 was pre-rigged for demolition.
I don’t accept his “died of versus died with” distinction, for the reasons SA has given elsewhere; there’s always a proportion of the population with other illnesses.
What about his belief that the seriousness of the pandemic is being exaggerated?
The Daily Mail (and Mail on Sunday) carries the sensationalist hype, but also the debunking. Today’s Mail carries a very interesting story about ventilators, how they can assist those suffering with pneumonia, but are more likely to kill Covid-19 sufferers, due to a difference in the illness. And yet due to the panic ventilators, the more the merrier, is deemed a solution!
I agree that the seriousness of the pandemic is being hyped in the news media. I don’t really mind too much though. Compare global warming. The scientific community have been warning the world for decades, but the conservative language of the scientific community doesn’t motivate people. The more people restrict themselves voluntarily, the less the need for enforcement, so the media hype, unusually, has some advantages.
The social restrictions seem to be working, but the question is, how do we get out of this? If the restrictions are removed, presumably the infection rate will soar again. We still don’t know about immunity and reinfection, but more is being learned all the time.
Incidentally, the restrictions mean that fewer interesting events are being generated, so the news media are left with less to report about apart from the pandemic.
It is a matter of record that a safety exclusion zone was enforced around WTC7. So in your scheme, Node, what happened to the demolition conspirators mass murder plot? They could blow the pre-rigged WTC7 at any time and kill even more people, but no, they tip off the firefighters and save a few lives, producing a “smoking gun” for Truthers. There’s no consistency here.
I don’t claim to know all the answers, but it is now 99% certain that WTC7 was demolished, and it is completely implausible that it was decided and executed on the day, therefore it was pre-planned.
If you want me to speculate about the decision-making of the perpetrators, I’d guess something like this: they had to wait until fires had burned long enough to provide a figleaf of an excuse for the building collapsing. Possibly they had to even initiate the fires. By the time it was judged plausible to bring WTC7 down, all civilians had been evacuated and to drop the building on top of 100s of emergency workers might have been deemed too provocative, an act guaranteed to turn every surviving first responder into a vengeful witness.
Regarding quote 1 and quote 2; it must be years since I posted about that on the 9/11 thread. There might even be another article; I did think that the article was ABC, and that I couldn’t find the original, but found it on archive.org.
How; no. Why the duck do you get permission from an insurer to detonate a load of explosives illegally smuggled into an occupied building? You can’t legally just rig a building full of people for demolition; there are laws about that sort of thing Node. I do sometimes wonder if you’re being serious. Can you imagine the conversation?
“Hello, this is Silverstein, policyholder #3795182, WTC7. Yeah, I never mentioned it, but I’ve been having that building packed with explosives… What?… Yes, about 10,000 staff…. Yes, about that many present each working day last week…. Look, I… What do you mean, why? It’s my ducking building isn’t it? I can do as I like with it. Look, I haven’t got much time right now, will you pay out if I detonate them?… What do you mean, it was a breach of my terms and conditions?…”
I agree that the seriousness of the pandemic is being hyped in the news media.
Would you agree that it’s not just the media who are exaggerating the seriousness of the pandemic? The media aren’t making up the figures, they are reporting them. Ioannidis specifically calls attention to the World Health Organisation releasing a fatality rate of 3.4% when he suggests an estimate of 0.05 – 1,0% would be “more reasonable.”
How; no. Why the duck do you get permission from an insurer to detonate a load of explosives illegally smuggled into an occupied building?
So you are claiming that the building was rigged for demolition in the short interval between Silverstein getting permission from his insurance company and when it fell soon after? If not, what are you claiming?
Node and Clark
“I agree that the seriousness of the pandemic is being hyped in the news media.”
What is the meaning of this statement? What exactly is hyped? That we have a pandemic with a doubling infection rate a few days, that although it mainly kills older people, that it has also killed many health workers, transport workers and younger people? That the UKG has had to build temporary nightingale hospitals to house the overspill of patients from the NHS? That ITU units are full and there is an expansion of ITU beds to cope with this? Please both or either of you explain.
As to mortality rate. This is a shifting target. At the beginning of the epidemic the WHO had to assemble together, from data mainly from China, a mortality rate. Nobody ever thinks that this is set in stone. The case mortality rate is defined as the number of patients dying of a disease as a proportion of those diagnosed with the disease These are patients who present sick in hospital. But that is not to say that this is the overall mortality rate from this virus, which can really not be determined with any degree of accuracy until after the pandemic ends, and large population studies are done. For example, the case mortality rate in Italy and now UK, approaches 10% because these countries have only tested those who come to hospital, a self selected group at the severe end of the spectrum, at least that is what UK is doing. If the tests extend to those who are symptomatic and self isolating at home, naturally the mortality rate will drop. If it extends to the general population, including those who are mildly symptomatic, or asymptomatic, it will drop further. Mortality rate is also age dependent. So there is no smoking gun here.Pooh, I do apologise; I’ve ended up fielding other stuff.
SA, I don’t watch telly, nor listen to the radio, nor read any “news” papers, nor read their websites beyond following commenters links to individual articles.
But in mid March, I spent nearly a week with some friends who have the telly on, always on a “news” channel. Just hours and hours and hours of coverage of essentially nothing but covid-19, day after day. And I learned not a thing from it. From the relatively tiny amount of time I’d spent reading your comments and Squonk’s, following links from those comments, and looking at the trends at sites such as worldometers.org – I’d learned more than the TV “news” channel had to tell me; it literally never surprised me once.
That’s because most of the TV coverage was either what politicians had to say, or random members of the public! That’s what I mean by hype. Here’s advice from Richard Stallman, which I endorse:
Don’t watch TV coverage of Covid-19! — by Richard Stallman:
https://www.stallman.org/articles/dont-watch-covid-tv.html
And I did say that I didn’t really mind the hype. I just mean it’s not for me.
SA, I am aware of and agree with all the facts in your first paragraph of 19:13. But I didn’t learn any of them from telly, and if I had attempted to extract them from TV coverage, I’d have had a great deal of irrelevant dross to filter out.
Node, 17:01 – “Nobody but you believes demolition could have been planned, arranged and carried out in a few hours”
Node, 18:15 – “it is completely implausible that it was decided and executed on the day”
Dutch demolition designer Danny Jowenko said it could be done, with a good, well coordinated team of about 40. And military demolition teams practice precisely this, and then do it in anger, behind enemy lines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_demolition_team
Jowenko says that the time-consuming operations are careful removal of hazardous materials including glass and asbestos, precise planning such that no adjacent buildings are impacted or damaged, and obtaining certificates and a demolition licence. I have linked his interview multiple times, but here it is yet again; would you please confirm that you’ve watched and listened to it this time? Because I am fed up with repeating myself and providing the evidence over and over again.
Node, 18:38 – no, I reckon Silverstein’s insurers would have nothing to do with it. They’d have become liable for the resultant asbestosis, just for a start. And that would provide a reason why it was carried out covertly. Anyone who admits involvement would become liable for premeditatedly causing death.
Maybe it was already being rigged while Silverstein was on the ‘phone, and he was just hoping to recoup some money.
The collapse didn’t have to be very accurate; the area was already a disaster zone. WTC7’s collapse did damage two other buildings; one was a write-off, and the other cost $800 million to repair, I think. Verizon Building and Fiterman Hall.
Node, 18:32 – ‘Ioannidis specifically calls attention to the World Health Organisation releasing a fatality rate of 3.4% when he suggests an estimate of 0.05 – 1,0% would be “more reasonable.”’
Ioannidis says to observe the social restrictions. 1% of Earth’s population is the best part of a billion people. And Ioannidis could be wrong; we aren’t going to have that figure with any accuracy for months. Unless we remove all restrictions, and that could prove calamitous, as all healthcare in the world would be overwhelmed. Each time that has happened the death rate has soared, so let’s not go there, eh?
Sorry, 1% of global population is around 80 million people. But let’s not go there either.
Dave @18:05
Good point about ventilators. It probably is doubtful that they do much good and those that survive would have anyway with other non-invasive support. In fact it would be much better to spend a lot of money now on testing, isolation and contact tracing than on ventilators made from scratch by a vacuum cleaner manufacturer. But hey we must go for the grand gesture, prevention does not have the same ring to it.
Also the most amazing advice is that if concentrating on hand washing in what is essentially a respiratory virus spread primarily by droplets and aerosols, and completely ignoring recommending face masks. The ritual of hand washing must produce a much stronger positive image than a boring face mask. Not that hand washing is also essential.“Dutch demolition designer Danny Jowenko said it could be done, with a good, well coordinated team of about 40.”
Yes I’ve seen it loads of times. Jowenko is desperately trying to make sense of what is to him inexplicable. He didn’t even know he was looking at WTC7 initially. He is shown the building falling and is certain it is a professional demolition. Then he is told when and where the building fell. His logic is then “Well it is definitely demolition, therefore it must have been done on the day because it is inconceivable that it could have been pre-planned.” He is basically saying it must be possible to do that on the day because we’ve just seen it with our own eyes.
And maybe he’s right. Maybe if Silverstein got on the phone the minute the 1st plane hit the first tower, and the special services military demolition expert he happened to have in his phonebook answered on the 1st ring, and agreed to the job immediately with no questions asked and he already had a squad of demolition experts on standby in close proximity to the site with all the equipment needed for that specific job packed on vehicles and ready to go, and complete architectural plans of the building were available, and access to every necessary area, and 100s of police and firemen trying to evacuate the building didn’t impede them or even notice them, and a 360 degree cordon of film crews and photographers missed them arriving and departing, and they were very very lucky and everything went perfectly, maybe, just maybe it would be possible …. but really?? … how likely is it that any one of those conditions were fulfilled, never mind all of them?
Like I said, completely implausible.
The first tower to collapse (disintegrate into dust) (but second hit) was WTC2 @10am. WTC7 (collapses @5.20pm). So the timeframe for an unplanned demolition of WTC7 would be 7 hours.
I witnessed an elderly pair shouting at a jogger for running near them, with a face of anger more than fear. Clearly returning to normal will be difficult for many and so maybe wearing (pointless) masks will be necessary to reassure a frightened public its still safe to out.
But masks and gloves are mostly a placebo, in respect of viruses, because viruses are microscopic and by the time you put on the mask it is covered in viruses, as we are literally surrounded, in the air, by billions of viruses. And viruses ‘live’ on gloves, but our flesh contains ‘anti-bodies’ to kill viruses!
So the timeframe for an unplanned demolition of WTC7 would be 7 hours.
Maybe the special services military demolition expert had an appointment with the same dermatologist at the same time as Silverstein.
Jowenko does not seem desperate. When he sees the layout of columns, he says “is that all? That makes it much easier. Just these dozen columns here” (indicating the core) or something to that effect, and it’s true that WTC7 didn’t have much structure for its size, none of the WTC buildings did, they were cheap crap with wide open floor spaces, as you might expect from such a highly commercial system in a jurisdiction with its own power over building regulations.
Jowenko then goes on to flesh out at least two methods, he says how quick it is to tape the charges on, and says you could even have men with cutters weakening columns. The only time he seems shocked is when he learns that WTC7 was on fire, but I’ve seen no fire below floor 8, which was severely ablaze, presumably because Jennings broke a window and thereby ventilated it.
The question is put to him that it takes weeks of preparation, and he addresses that specifically, saying that most of the preparation is removal of hazardous materials and arranging the bureaucracy; he almost sounds dismissive. And I would expect that in a normal demolition, installing anything explosive is the very last and most quickly executed step before prompt detonation; you can’t just leave explosives on-site for days on end, not unless you have a very good perimeter with staff.
If you can find me anything by Jowenko saying it was pre-rigged, please link. I know of nothing.
Node, we know there was foreknowledge; that’s established by multiple lines of evidence, so it’s not impossible that the demolition layout was planned in advance. But my money is on planning and rigging at military rates, ie. in a few hours.
But there’s another issue here. Truthers don’t really give a damn about WTC7; for them it’s just a stepping-stone to the Twin Towers. No one else cares much about WTC7 either, because it was evacuated and didn’t hurt anyone in its collapse. It outlived its fire rating by hours, so even to engineers its just a curiosity, not a safety issue; plenty of time to evacuate, unlike the Twin Towers.
But Truthers should think; WTC7 is no use as a stepping stone, because even if you do prove demolition, the authorities can just say exactly what I’ve been saying, “yes, actually, it was rigged and pulled that afternoon”.
You should have listened to Mike Ruppert.
Firefighters have connection to demolition personnel, I believe. There’s a lot of cross-over between firefighters and military lower ranks, and between military explosive handlers and demolition teams. I think you’ll even find that firefighters sometimes use explosives, for emergency access, for blowing out fire, and for removing unstable structures where fire is being fought. WTC7 was just bigger than usual.
And check the Silverstein quote again. He says the fire department made the decision to pull.
