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Clark, it is the French Administration, egged on by the French fishermen, who are threatening to close the Channel Tunnel ( something that was constructed by both French peasants and British peasants), they are boasting that they will stop food from Europe into the U.K. They are boating that they will stop French electricity coming from France to the Channel Islands, if they do not get their way. They are threatening the U.K. to stop selling French Electricity to the U.K. Yet it is the French peasants who are building Hinkley Point C for us in Somerset, perhaps they will go on strike?
Boris does not have to win a General Election to remain Prime minister of the United Kingdom but Emmanuel Macron must have a face off for retaining his crown as President of France, next Spring.
This aggression between France and the U.K. only started to reemerge, after our 2016 Referendum. If we had voted to stay in the E.U., this rudeness would not have happened/be happening. This leads me to the conclusion that the leaders of France and some other E.U. countries are very hurt that the U.K. voted to jump ship. What they really do not want is more countries to jump ship.
Democracy cannot exist in the E.U.Yes we in this part of North East Europe should be sharing fuel/electricity, even though the U.K. has left the E.U.
Only a few days ago the new HVDC Interconnector from Norway to Blyth, came on line, mostly this will be Hydroectric produced energy flowing from Norway into England. It is planned that Solar power will flow from Morocco directly to North Devon. We do have an Interconnector with France but the English end burnt out, it will take half a year to fix it.And yes, at present Hinkley Point C is being constructed with Chinese money by French peasants, in Somerset. Watch this space as to how things proceed as we have spats with both China and France.
The irritation MN is that the UK appears to be attempting to back track on the agreements it made and signed relating to the French transitional fishing rights and the NI protocol and doing so publically. As for the fishing rights, it seems again the such a small economic contributor to either country is causing outsized angst. The post-Brexit agreement negotiated with the European Union provided that EU fishermen could continue to fish in certain British waters if they obtained a licence. The licence would be granted if they could prove they were fishing there before. Whether you agree or disagree that that should have been included is not relevant.
I don’t know how credible the French boat’s evidence they were fishing there before is and were I to be adjudicating on the UK’s behalf I’d be pretty damned harsh about that ie. your boat better have pretty incontrovertible evidence or you wouldn’t get a liscense. However, we are not seeing that data. Let Jersey/UK state on what basis they have refused liscenses so we can decide if they had reasonable grounds or not.
The NI protocol is a different, more serious, kettle of fish (:D).
North/South trade is booming post brexit. Irish haulage is using direct ferries to France rather than the UK landbridge with traffic at UK ports previously used by Irish hauliers considerably down (one third of what it was). Again, the UK agreed and signed a treaty knowing this would be the effect and appear to trying to back track. In the case of the NI protocol the USA and congress will not look kindly on any threat to peace nor the threat of a hard (economic) border. In this video on twitter Frost confirms the above and at the end of it states: “That’s one reason why we can’t wait very long to solve this problem because things are already happening.”
The protocol is being attacked not because it doesn’t work, but because it DOES – strengthening north-south economic links.ET
I agree with what you just wrote. My point was that the unpleasantness between the U.K. and France only kicked off, after the 2016 Referendum to Leave won. So Macron is pissed off that we have left the E.U., he is making himself as horrible and stupid as possible, so that he retain the French Presidency. He thinks if he becomes a double President, his next job will be to lead the E.U. onto the Sunny Uplands. But what is not being grasped is the undemocratic attitude of the E.U. Elite, they do not think the British should have been given the choice to walk away.
We will never, ever rejoin the E.U. I have my doubts how long the E.U. will last, I would guess, no more than thirty years.AUKUS
Sikorsky SH-60/MH-60 SeahawkAustralia has ditched the European helicopter programme and gone for the Seahawk.
So, the submarine hunting version that can land and be stowed on warships, folding rotors and folding tail.
This probably mean they aim to buy or construct frigates or destroyers, as well as Nuclear Submarines.
Australia seem to be going Full Metal Jacket.MN, I don’t agree that there was ever a case where the UK (or any other country) would not be “allowed” to leave. The treaty contains a mechanism for a country to leave so they did anticipate the situation. There is definitely regret that the UK has left and people and politicians have opinions as to the merits of leaving or not to which they are entitled. Ultimately it was for the UK electorate and only them to decide.
I don’t agree the unpleasentness kicked off after the referendum just because the UK decided to leave. The fishing rights issue and the common agricultural policy have been causing arguments for years before Brexit was even a consideration. Also, Cameron never thought the UK would vote leave and consequently had no plan for the subsequent negotiations. Having no plan and the novelty of unwinding the previous 40 years of agreements was always going to be difficult and especially as it was the first time it happened. Brexiteers lied about how easy it was going to be and exercised deranged thinking in expecting to have their cake and eat it. The EU was never going to allow business as usual with a third country and why should they? No other trade agreement would or does allow one country to remove itself from obligations whilst at the same time retaining the benefits.
The UK and EU signed an agreement that finalised brexit, presumably both did so in good faith. The NI protocol is working well for NI business, they can sell into UK and into EU and is working as anticipated. Let the UK explain its reasons for declining some fishing boat licenses and let the French explain their objections so the rest of us can make a judgement as to who is acting in good faith or not. I suspect there is a bit of acting in bad faith on both sides.
The EU is being portrayed as the enemy in the DSaily Mail and others. Do you think NAFTA will allow the UK to enjoy the benefits without fulfilling obligations (like bleached chicken)?
Michael:
Oct 10, 10:52 – “This aggression between France and the U.K. only started to reemerge, after our 2016 Referendum.”
It became more apparent after the Brexit referendum, but it had been churning along for decades as a competition between factions of the rich and powerful, and was reflected in the massive, decades-long propaganda campaign in several “British” newspapers – “They“ [the EU] “are discriminating against our pork pies / names of cheeses / names of ice cream / shape of bananas / interfering with our oven gloves” and “They refuse to disperse all the destitute, smelly, dangerous immigrants accumulating at Calais trying to get onto our sovereign soil” – as if us peasants had any sovereignty at all, let alone over the land beneath our feet! Such sovereignty belongs only to the rich and powerful.
I suspect that this inter-elite rivalry had much to do with Finance, especially the City of London as gateway for dark money to the unaccountable tax havens of UK Overseas Territories (UKOTs), British Dependencies etc; a plethora of tiny islands left over from the British Empire. The EU was keener to regulate such finance than was Westminster, the latter always in the grip of The City, the City’s Remembrancer having discretionary but permanent and continuous powers similar to The Speaker in the House of Commons.
Oct 7, 08:46 – ‘You could say […] in a way, it’ [voting for Brexit] ‘was a “peasants revolt”’
But the idea never originated with the common people; why should it? You said yourself, you never had anything against people from France, no objection to them visiting your home or you visiting theirs; building such links is healthy for peace and cooperation. The idea was promoted by certain “news” papers and their websites. And look who seized upon it and championed it – the right-most faction of the Conservative party! Hardly the representatives of the common people.
Oct 10, 10:52 – “Boris does not have to win a General Election to remain Prime minister of the United Kingdom but Emmanuel Macron must have a face off for retaining his crown as President of France, next Spring.”
Yes, this is the situation right now, but my parody of Theresa May as Emmanuel Macron illustrates that elite-versus-elite rivalry is permanent; the participants change but the propaganda remains systematically constant.
Oct 10, 10:52 – “Democracy cannot exist in the E.U.”
This is one of the deceptions promoted by the same “news” papers that had been propagandising for Brexit. It has two prongs; (1) that Westminster democracy works and (2) that EU democracy doesn’t exist. Both are ridiculous exaggerations. There is massive democratic deficit in nearly every so-called democracy; look what happened to Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders. And every EU country has some form of inadequate democracy – the EU Constitution doesn’t even permit a country to join or remain in the EU unless it is “democratic”, ie. it makes some pretence at democracy like the UK and US do.
When in the EU all UK voters could vote in EU elections. Most never bothered, except towards the end when, again encouraged by the pro-aggression media propaganda, many voted for UKIP MEPs. Voters never bothered because most were barely aware – most of “our” “news”papers treated EU elections as a joke if they bothered to mention them at all; they never even named or interviewed our candidates – propaganda by omission.
– – – – – – – –Michael, you clearly appreciate Craig’s opinions regarding, for instance, Russia and Syria. I think you should pay more attention to what he has written about Westminster’s relationship with the EU. Please, please carefully read the following posts of his, and consider and introspect upon them; compare them with the attitudes you’ve been projecting on this thread:
Johnson Intended to Break the Withdrawal Agreement Even Before He Signed It
Channel Islands Fisheries and Abuse by Tory Jingoism
Macron is no angel; very few of the ruling classes behave as truly decent people, because when a decent, caring, reasonable person is likely to gain power, as Corbyn was, the media unite to denigrate them. But these problems are not all of Macron’s making; they’ve been stirred by the propaganda industry for decades. It takes two to tango, and a crowd to brawl. If our friends behaved as aggressively as most politicians we’d dismiss them as undesirable and break off the friendship.
ET October 10, 2021 at 15:29
When David Cameron and Nick Clegg were joined at the hip in The Rose Garden, everything was lovely, as far as most of the Gravy Trainers were concerned (see how much money they have both made, since leaving office, almost as much as that weasel Tony Blair). Then after five years of joined-at-the-hip, the British Electorate knew Clegg was also a lying weasel, so they threw the LibDem scumbags out, bag and baggage. However, this moved to the next shift, our Dave had foolishly made a commitment to a Referendum, in the unlikely event of him winning hands down, this was a turn up for the books. He kept his word but only after he had gone cap-in-hand to the E.U. Elite who told him to fuck right off. That was the fucking arrogance of the E.U. Elite, they hate Democracy, they detest it. How very dare the peasants have a voice.
The rest as they say, is history.Michael norton, Oct 10, 18:44 – What’s this “Rose Garden”?
“Rose Garden” is the garden in 10 Downing Street
“He kept his word but only after he had gone cap-in-hand to the E.U. Elite who told him to fuck right off. That was the fucking arrogance of the E.U. Elite, they hate Democracy, they detest it”
Did he really get that shafted? I don’t really think so though now that you have brought it up I seem to remember that was how it was reported in the news. I had to go and search to remember it in detail but The guardian’s and Politico’s articles give what I think are good summaries. He got a lot of what he wanted from my reading of it.
There is a vehemence in your statement that I just don’t get MN. MEP’s are elected in all member states though as Clark said above little attention is paid to those elections by media in most countries. The commission is made up of people proposed by the member state’s governments and the council of ministers (ministers of member states) being the prime legislative body. If you were to conceive of a body similar to the EU how would you set it up? Most power rests with member states’ governments.
For amusement I thought some of the cartoons on some of this weeks events were good. I liked the one with the statute of liberty……..off topic I know but hey-ho.
ET
I actually think the coalition formed by the Conservative Party and the LibDem Party was fairly positive for the U.K.The U.K. had been thinking about a Referendum on leaving or staying in the E.U. for some years. I doubt either Nick Clegg or David Cameron had any real intentions of allowing a Referendum on Brexit. Dave Cameron probably would have rather had another five years of Coalition, rather than rabid Conservatives demanding the Referendum.
If the E.U. had been more respectful to Dave, more giving, more reasonable, maybe, we would not be where we now are.
They were not respectful, they were not giving and they were not reasonable, the mask had slipped. The people of the U.K. began to be awakened from their soporific period. Most of the clever people were for staying in, most ordinary working people were for getting out. This is because wages for ordinary people had been kept low for quite a while.
“Freedom of Movement”
The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why but I suspect “Freedom of Movement” played its part by allowing bosses to employ Eastern Europeans and keep wages lower than they would have been, if there had not been “Freedom of Movement”
I think being in a club for forty years was probably more than enough.
We will never, ever go back.“If the E.U. had been more respectful to Dave, more giving, more reasonable, maybe, we would not be where we now are.”
When you carefully read the amendments the EU made he actually got most of what he had asked for MN, in my opinion from re-reading it now with some hindsight. I’m not sure how you think they were disrespectful. I suspect what happened is that the pro-brexit media presented it that way. In what way do you think they ought to have been more respectful or more giving or more reasonable? That is a genuine question not just rhetorical.
Something else I remember now is that the UK could have kept the new members citizens out of the UK’s labour market for 7 years under what was then existing EU treaty law but declined to do so.
“This is because wages for ordinary people had been kept low for quite a while.”
Was it the EU or UK government responsible for that? I suspect very much it was more the UK government. Having worked in the NHS for 30 years MN I can assure you it wasn’t the EU who have messed it up it has been sucessive UK governments. (not that I was against all the reforms, any government has to ensure it gets value for money from what it spends)
I’m gonna have to get my eyes tested if these captcha things get any more difficult 🙂
M N @ 79252
Yes East Europeans are attracted buy low wages in UK.
All of them are unskilled!( from fruit pickers nurses HVG drivers Butchers scientist’s bankers etc.) Or maybe British Empire needs skilled workers to fill up gaps?
Uk was attractive country but now Ireland is.
Ireland is doing much better than England in all parameters!!!!!!MN 79252
“The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why but I suspect “Freedom of Movement” played its part by allowing bosses to employ Eastern Europeans and keep wages lower than they would have been, if there had not been “Freedom of Movement”
So high wages and idle working class would have saved UK manufacturing industry.?
When did Poland join EU?
“Ireland is doing much better than England in all parameters!!!!!!”
I would hold off counting chickens for now. Ireland’s national debt is enormous close to 250 billion euro and the multi-nationals there have an outsized influence on GDP etc. With the new global tax rates things might become a little unstuck. There is till a lot of anti-east european sentiment in Ireland as indeed other immigrants which drives me mad when I go home and hear it. You’d almost think the Irish didn’t do exactly the same thing for hundreds of years i.e. emigrate. The housing situation in Ireland is shocking wth enormous rents and prices.
Michael, thanks for the clarification.
– “I doubt either Nick Clegg or David Cameron had any real intentions of allowing a Referendum on Brexit”
The EU referendum was Cameron’s publicity stunt, which he assumed would finally silence the “rabid Conservatives” you mentioned. It backfired, but only just. Far too many people thought that ‘Remain’ was a foregone conclusion; many of these were so sure that they didn’t even bother to vote.
I can tell it was a publicity stunt because there was no plan. You can’t just pull out of a massive trading bloc without a plan. ‘Remain’ obviously didn’t need a plan. ‘Leave’ was entirely undefined.
– “The U.K. had more or less been de-industrialised. I am not sure I know why…”
I see two major reasons. Thatcher started the de-industrialisation to destroy the power of the trades unions. Globalisation continued the process, because manufacturing for multinationals is far cheaper in countries with less regulation, lower wages and poorer working conditions.
Freedom of movement played its part but that could have been addressed, both as ET mentioned, and by convergence between the value of the Pound and the Euro. The fact that it wasn’t is because employers always want to pay lower wages, and since the ascendency of neoliberalism, government consistently sides with employers over employees.
One thing that was very wrong with the UK’s place in the EU was that the UK opted out of many EU worker protections such as the Working Time Directive. The EU is neoliberal, but Westminster is even more so; that is one reason I voted ‘Remain’. Another is that membership of the EU imparted some protection to the UK against the US and its neoliberal corporatism. A third is that there was never any plan for ‘Leave’, such that ‘Leave’ held massive potential for disaster. That disaster could arrive very soon, with no UK gas storage and the termination of EU treaty obligations to supply gas and electricity; in fact it has already started.
I had other reasons to vote ‘Remain’ too. I had spent a little time in the mainland EU, and had seen that most things are done rather better over there. I had travelled across the open borders, seen the cultural integration, experienced the relaxed attitude. I have two friends in German/English families, and I used to have a French/US girlfriend. Jamie’s festival had a lot of volunteers from the EU due to a cross-cultural initiative organisation.
I have grave criticisms of the EU as well; what the EU bank did to democracy in Greece, and EU support for the Spanish government’s violence against the Catalan referendum voters.
Such a complex set of issues to have to make a yes/no/abstain choice about. But ganging up with the US and forcing Australia to join a confrontation against China is a worse outcome than I ever expected.
Nowadays most of Europe speaks English so with poor English and no knowledge of local language you can get a job in any other EU country like Germany, Nederland, Scandinavia etc.! 30 years ago without speaking Danish was nearly impossible to get a job but now is not as “bad”.
“UK opted out of many EU worker protections such as the Working Time Directive”
Actually Clark, they didn’t opt out of the EWTD. In fact they implemented it much more vigorously and rigorously than most including Ireland. I did my last continuous onsite 48 hour shift in 2009, thank God. Colleagues in Ireland had to wait years more for that to happen. In fairness to the UK, when they were in the EU they were conscientious about implementing the legislative changes required. In Ireland we had to have a referendum about everything every six months.
The fact is the EU was blamed for a lot of stuff that was the fault of globalisation and multi nationals moving manufacturing to where it was cheaper in order to maximise profit. Even Mr.Dyson, a staunch supporter of brexit decided to move his manufacturing out of UK. Sadl;y for the UK leaving the EU is not going to correct those issues and will probably exacerbate them.
It came to mind that one of the things that pissed off the Brits was the human rights stuff and one example was the mandatory allowing of prisoners to vote. Personally, I think that is daft for your standard axe wielding mass murderer but do people thing Craig Murray should be denied a vote? Makes one think innit?
Thanks ET. Looking it up, I see they tried hard to opt out. They had an opt-out from the social chapter of the Maastricht Treaty.
But, from memory, wasn’t there was a maximum 36 hours rule that they didn’t accept?
There was angst in medicine especially surgical specilaties about the ETWD which wasn’t entirely unjustified. ETWD meant expanding all the tiers of doctors from 5 (and a 72 hour average week) to 8 to be compliant. This led to fears of diluted experience and reduction in numbers of surgical procedures undertaken by trainees because the same number of cases were distributed across more trainees. Therefore it would take longer to train up surgeons in all required procedures. Also, not all trainees would get consultant posts due to the pyrimid organisation.
The real issue, of course, was money. Consultants feared dilution of their private practices. The UK retains the structure for now and I don’t think docs will allow going back to long shifts. When I started my average working week was 89.4 hours with some weeks being over 120 hours. (we were paid 1/3rd of our hourly rate after 40 hours)
Some countries did actually opt out certain professions like medicine for those and similar reasons. Overall I think it has made medicine better but there is still romm for refineing the ETWD. Work intensity has a role.What a lunatic
“Jonathan Toebbe and his wife Diana were arrested in West Virginia U.S.A. on Saturday, the Justice Department announced.
They allegedly tried to sell nuclear submarine design data, hidden in a peanut butter sandwich, to someone they thought represented another country.
In fact, it was an undercover FBI agent.
According to the statement, Mr. Toebbe and his partner – 42 and 45 respectively – have now been charged under the Atomic Energy Act.
Mr. Toebbe worked in the U.S.A. Navy’s nuclear propulsion programme and had national security clearance. His wife is a high school teacher.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58863678
I wonder which government they thought they were selling secrets to, not Australia?
They will throw away the key.
—
[ Mod: Yet another BBC news bulletin, michael? As you’ve often been reminded, this forum is not to be used as an RSS service for the state broadcaster. ]Hello Mods, this theme is “New World Shifting to the Indo-Pacific new nuclear submarines”, so this story is spot on theme.
We seemed to have moved on to Brexit, yes I know I have also talked of Brexit. Yes, this story is in the news. If this story was not in the news, we could not discuss it.
I was expecting to steer the conversation back on track, I am sorry if that annoys you.
—
[ Mod: You’re not discussing it, though: you’re only bringing it to people’s attention. That’s what the BBC News site is for.Other habitual newshounds have commonly had their bulletin notifications deleted, and some were eventually banned for spurning moderator advice. As you’re now telling the moderators what judgements to make, you fall into the same category. You can now take a two day hiatus to reconsider. ]
Mr. Macron has had his nose put out of joint by AUKUS. He is besides himself with anger against the U.K. The Old Enemy.
Mr. Macron is up for re-election at Easter next year. The British and French are expected to keep up the shouting, til that time has gone. Boris is banking on Macron being tilted from his high horse.
Boris does not have to hold himself up to the electorate for a few more years. The Entente Cordiale is over.
France Elite cannot forgive the British people for voting Brexit.
