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And just to add: Peter Hitchens was not supporting Stalin when he spoke of the importance of our wartime alliance with the Soviet Union. And my understanding is that a great many Russians themselves also suffered under his rule.
Instead I think he was acknowledging that without the courage and determination of the Russian people to stand up to Hitler’s Nazis, Germany would not have been defeated in 1945 and a great many more lives would have been lost.
I quote again from the film I posted:
“No country, no people suffered so terribly in the war as the Soviet Union. Nowhere else are the memories of war so alive today [1973] and so profound. The German invasion brought about a catastrophe which it seemed at first no nation could survive. In the siege of Leningrad [St Petersburg] alone which lasted for over two years more human beings died than the total war dead of Britain and the United States combined. Yet it was here that Hitler was broken. The Russian people faced the possibility that they might perish and overcame it.”Kempe, I’m a modern russian citizen and I don’t think that Poland deserved it, because now we know what happened after and what was the outcome. Unlike the people of that history period.
But I can see why Stalin would think so at that time and I can see that Poland behaved no better than the other countries.
You write “one small concentration camp” as if it is something that doesn’t count! With their average 30 millions population it may have been enough.
Just 2 decades before the event Poland defeated Russia and took western territories of Ukraine and Belorussia. Poland and USSR were enemies. Poland sent communists, jews, ukrainians and belorussians – those members of national freedom movements – to the concentration camp since 1934. When Hitler invaded, Polish government fled to Romania and USSR found it good moment to also invade and take back Ukrainian and Belorussian lands.
These lands belong to Ukraine and Belorussia up to today, and I don’t understand why you accuse modern Russia of the acts? USSR consisted of many republics, which used the joint state power to achieve their goals, as you see it is not modern Russia who has ‘profit’ of invading Poland.
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I’m at the seaside now, I’ll bring the links you ask for, later.No country is entirely guilty or innocent and victors write the history books and decide who gets the blame, but Poland suffered primarily due to poor leadership in their refusal to do a deal with Germany over Danzig, perhaps due to Britain’s mad “Polish Guarantee”.
Poland was a newly created country with many minorities within its borders and was foolish to believe it was a great power that could withstand invasion from both Soviet Union and Germany. That is resolving a dispute with Germany over Danzig was reasonable in context.
In practice Poland had to choose between Germany or Soviet Union, but really had more to fear from Soviet Union as they had conquered large parts of old Russian Empire during the civil war.
Therefore once the Nazi-Soviet pact was signed their fate was sealed unless they did a deal with Germany. The Pact was designed to bring Poland to the negotiation table as the ‘secret’ protocols to divide the country between their neighbours would have been made known to them.
This view is based on the very generous terms given to Soviet Union, which only made sense if Hitler expected the threat to work. It didn’t and Hitler’s tactical victory resulted in a strategic defeat by vastly increasing the power of Soviet Union. It was no doubt this that propelled Hitler to attack Soviet Union, whilst it was he thought, weak under communism, but would be a very strong danger under a resurgent Russian nationalism, when it finally arose.
Welcome to the discussion Dave. This is not a subject that I know enough about to be able to comment on directly, but I appreciate your thoughtful contribution.
Tatyana,
I wanted to ask you if you had heard any stories about the war and whether you would be happy to share them here. You mentioned your grandparents Vasiliy and Tatyana above but did not expand on what their personal experiences were. I would be very interested to learn more about how the war affected them and the people living in your part of Russia.
Ok, I’m back.
Re. Hitler’s politics, the most important feature of then existing Poland was – it was a remnant of former Russain Empire, holding at her posession the territories of “черта оседлости” -> “border of permanent residence of Jews” established as far as 1791 by Catherine II and existed till 1917.
It included (*I copy it from wiki)
– all ten provinces of the Kingdom of Poland,
+ Bessarabian, Vilna, Vitebsk, Volyn, Grodno, Ekaterinoslav, Kiev, Kovno, Minsk, Mogilev, Podolsk, Poltava, Taurida, Kherson, Chernigov.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Ansiedlungsrayon-es.svg
In short, now it is parts of Poland, Ukraine, Belorussia, Latvia and Moldova.here is the map from the wiki article “The “Pale of Settlement” with “Congress Poland” in Tsarist Russia with percentages of Jewish population in the governorates, 1905.”
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Ansiedlungsrayon-es.svg—
so, when they say “Hitler invaded Poland” I always turn it into “Hitler attacked the places of Jewish settlements” inside my mind.and here is a good resume of “European pacts with Hitler. History of silence”
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/59ddfe76fd96b1a4d0aefd36/evropeiskie-pakty-s-gitlerom-istoriia-molchaniia-5c15760aca54dd00abe7aae91933. Pact of four (Italy, Germany, England, France)… some of the Versailles borders (between Germany and Poland and between Hungary and its neighbours) were also supposed to be audited.
1934. Pilsudski-Hitler Pact (Germany, Poland)…Poles vehemently deny the existence of secret agreements, and any mention of it is called “Kremlin propaganda.” The text of this document has not yet been discovered, as well as the secret protocols to the ‘Treaty of the USSR and Germany’, however, there are a great many references to it.
1935. Anglo-German naval agreement… in fact, the Germans were given the opportunity to build 5 battleships, two aircraft carriers, 21 cruisers and 64 destroyers. When signing the Treaty, Britain did not inform its WWI allies France and Italy of its desire to conclude a Treaty with Hitler, thereby agreeing unilaterally to the Germans ‘ violation of the Treaty of Versailles.
1936. Anti-Comintern Pact (Germany, Japan)…fascist Italy joined in 1937, Manchukuo and Hungary and Spain in 1939, later Romania, Finland, Bulgaria and the governments of Denmark, Croatia and Slovakia also joined.
1938. Munich conspiracy (England, France, Germany, Italy)… transmission of the Sudetenland by Czechoslovakia to Germany. Signed by Chamberlain, Daladier, Mussolini and Hitler
1939. Dusseldorf agreement (Germany, England)… which stipulated the economic division of Europe between the monopolies of Germany and England.
1939. German-Romanian economic treaties and agreements… Under the Treaty, Romania received 250 million Reichsmarks in trade loans, including loans for military supplies. The German side has the right to create “free zones” for its warehouses and oil storage facilities in Romanian ports, financial participation in the Romanian oil industry, construction of roads and railways necessary for Germany.
1939. Treaty on non-aggression of Germany in the Baltic States… Germany proposed non-aggression treaties with Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden on 28 April 1939. Sweden, Norway and Finland refused.
On August 11, 1939, Hitler declared to the Commissioner of the League of Nations in Danzig, Karl Burkhardt:
“Everything I do is directed against the Russians. If the West is too stupid and blind to understand this, then I will be forced to make an agreement with the Russians, beat the West and then, after its defeat, turn again against the Soviet Union.”I mean, just remember the above when you think that Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was the only treaty with Hitler 🙂
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we were on the family trip to the seaside this week-end and went as far from Krasnodar as far as to the Novorossyisk city. When we were driving in the Goryachiy Kluch and Krymsk my husband told to our son that every meter of this land is literally covered with shells and blood. He also told that Hungarians and Romanians and Slovaks were standing there.
I asked if they were fighting with Hitler, but my husband turned very bitter and sarcastically said – “no, please remember we were fighting alone. Hungarians were well-known for their cruelty and punitive actions, so even there was an order not to take them prisoners”.
He also tald that nearer to the end of the war, when it was obvious USSR is winning, many “changed their boots in the air” (*russian idiom for changing the mask).
And now they stand as countries-winners.
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even on September 1 in Poland, Croatian President Kolinda Grabar Kitarovic surprised many historians by stating:
– The Croatian people … have made the greatest contribution to the anti-fascist struggle in Europe …and historians say that : The independent Croatian power, created by Hitler on the ruins of Yugoslavia, sent the 369th volunteer regiment to the Eastern front. This regiment fought well enough against our soldiers during the battle of Stalingrad.
A “beware of dog” sign, doesn’t mean there is a dog and then again there may be a dog, but its very small, hence the warning may be exaggerated!
Hence Hitler’s threats to expand in the East and specifically at the expense of Russia could be hyperbole to meet other objectives. For example talking about conquests in the east was the nationalist way to oppose seeking an empire overseas, which Hitler viewed as “fools gold”, but with no real intention of pursuing beyond an aspiration. And casting Russia as the enemy was a way of doing deals with countries who fear Russia more than Germany and therefore a way to resolve for example Danzig.
The problem was Hitler was in a hurry to resolve the ‘injustices of Versailles’ and then get on as an architect with transforming Germany, which led to the fatal error of invading Poland, which he didn’t really want to do, but ‘had to’ once his bluff was called and this of course is the problem with brinkmanship.
It looked so easy once the Pact was signed (and even more so after division of Poland) because Britain could not pursue the war without signing its own death warrant and so was bound to sue for peace and on very reasonable terms as Hitler knew only others would gain from dissolution of British Empire.
Except Churchill refused to act rationally and the rest is history.
Thank you for your very detailed contributions here Tatyana. I stand in awe.
I have to smile at your description of the 1938 agreement as the “Munich Conspiracy”. An apt description, perhaps but I have never heard it referred to as such myself. Here it is generally referred to as the “Munich Agreement” and is a very famous moment in British history with the then Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain often shown on television with a copy of the agreement in his hand declaring “Peace in Our Time”. It has come to be viewed as a time when we (the UK) appeased Hitler.
I may have more to say later.
the stories from my grandparents… well, they didn’t tell us much about the war. perhaps they tried to safeguard us from the awful details? I don’t know.
My grandpa served as a driver for a ‘commandant’ in a German town after the war. My grandma was an orfan, she was obliged to bring water to the fields, on a hourse-driven cart.
Most important are their philosofy ideas which they shared with us. My grandfa died when I was 3, but my grandma spent a lot of time with me. She always had time for me. I learned so much from her! And I do miss her much!As many russians she worked a lot, got up and went to bed early. She made home supply of long-lasting food. Never threw away a tiny piece of bread.
I don’t, too.
Though we live in much more food-abundant times, I won’t throw away bread. We make fried sandwiches, or croutons, or freeze the extra bread. Soaked with milk/cream bread we add to meatballs, but we have no habit to throw it away.
Nowadays with a lot of internet kitchen recipes I see that many national cuisines are very economical when disposing of products or with fuel consumption.Thank you so much for sharing this Tatyana. it means much more when it it comes from a genuine person rather than a journalist or government.
It is the same here. Some people talked a lot about the war and some said very little. My own family did not talk about it a great deal. Both of my parents were born during the war in 1942. My mother said she could remember fires being lit to celebrate the end of the war.
My English grandad was an ordinary soldier, but promoted a few times. He was commended for bravery (though I never knew what for) and there was a framed certificate in their house. He was very proud of that. I know he was involved with bridge building over the Rhine.
I also have a great distaste for food wastage. The only food wastage I have is tea bags! It might in part be my own grandmother’s influence – I don’t really know. I know that your grandmother was someone you were very close to from other postings. She seems to come from another age, and I imagine her to be a wise and kindly soul. I am sure she was a wonderful lady. A lot of the wisdom and philosophy of people like her is being lost today, which I think is a great shame.
My English grandmother also worked hard. Their house was always spotlessly clean and she loved cooking. She was married to my grandfather for over 60 years, but lived for less than a year after he died in 2001.
Well all politicians – at least Western ones – are liars. It is terrible that we do not honour the great Russian contribution to the war as we should. And Russia still has an air of mystery about it for us here. Many British expats live in Spain, and many would holiday in Greece, but I cannot imagine anyone ever going on holiday to the Black Sea.
“changed their boots in the air” (*russian idiom for changing the mask)
there is a simpler word which we often use and that is “turncoat”.
You know, before I knew you I had never even heard of Krasnodar and yet I see that it is a huge city. We know so little of Russia here and we ignore her presence.
Politicians lie, ordinary people read one-sided history books, some countries are interested in reconsidering their role in world war II. But we in Russia know very well about this war.
In my city, someone decided that everything is forgotten, and one can put a monument to Hungarian soldiers right next to the monument to Soviet soldiers 🙂
Ask me what was the response of the local patriotic club and where is this hungarian monument now.(lol) Oh dear, is that true?
I found more on Hungary and it’s relationship with Russia:
“Hungarians divided over fate of Soviet monument” (2007):
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hungary-russia/hungarians-divided-over-fate-of-soviet-monument-idUSL3020538420070403@ Tatyana
I hope you will find the time to say more about Russia in world war two here 🙂Your holiday destination Novorossiysk is a Hero City:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_CityI believe that only a very naive child would not notice the substitution of concepts in this case.
The monument was erected to those soldiers who sacrificed their lives in the war against Nazism. This is a monument to the dead people, not those who came later and established their power over the country. It’s amazing how people can ignore the difference between a fallen soldier and a living official.
Are they all morons or something?
Again, as in the whole anti-Russian propaganda they take one generalized word, for example “Russian” or “Soviet”, and start to hate everything connected with it.
Stupid fools.John, it is 75 years since the war is over. Most eyevitnesses are dead or very very old by now. I can’t tell the whole story of that war even in several pages, mind you, I know it only from history textbooks, stories of elders and museums 🙂
Well that’s fine 🙂 There is no rush, but if you think of anything which you think is of interest then I hope you will add it.
There is so much of this story that has been untold 🙂
“Are they all morons or something? Again, as in the whole anti-Russian propaganda they take one generalized word, for example “Russian” or “Soviet”, and start to hate everything connected with it.”
Unfortunately most people do not think very hard about issues. They are like sheep and just go along with what they are told on their tv, radio, newspapers and internet. We probably all do it to some extent. We were taught to be frightened of Russia and people hate what they are afraid of.
I know I have said it before, but I genuinely believe that Russians are very good people and it is my hope that it will be possible for the western countries in time to be on good terms with Russia and the Russian people and to better understand Russia and it’s culture 🙂
