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According to the Wikipedia outfit, the only countries in the world operating policies of forcible vaccination at the moment are some in continental Europe that were formerly run by fascists (Italy etc.) or Stalinists (Poland etc.), plus Brazil, Indonesia, Malta, and let’s not forget France.
Let’s see how successful Dominic Cummings will be in Britain if he wraps forcible vaccination in the flags of “we love our children’s education” and “
you should bewe’re so grateful to therichNHS”.In Britain 165000 people signed a petition against imposing restrictions on those who refuse a “Covid-19” vaccination. (Incidentally the government has all the signatories’ names now. Signing such a petition using your real name is extremely unwise if you are planning REALLY to resist forced vaccination in the REAL WORLD.)
N-
Vaccination against cholera is not needed in Yemen, just a clean water supply and for the siege on one of the poorest countries in the world by one of the richest, with technical knowhow by some of the most advanced military countries, including bombing of desalination plants, could stop the epidemic there. But I am sure that instead donations will be given to start a vaccination programme against cholera is being planned by some NGO or other.Government wants to jump on vaccine bandwagon as a distraction from their own failure on test and trace. This is typical of the way this has all been handled, not as a public health crisis but as a political and business opportunity.
– ‘So far one of the most striking features of the pandemic has been the level of uniformity of governments’ policies around the world.’
Utterly untrue. In China, apartment doors were welded closed, people were forcibly taken into quarantine, and in some areas centralised food distribution was implemented. Now, people can’t enter public buildings or use public transport without a QR code. Many countries have done nothing. In others, restrictions were voluntary, or enforcement varied from none to overzealous in different areas. New Zealand closed its borders. Some African countries have used blood sample pooling to make the limited number of test kits go several times further. There is and has been a huge diversity of policy.
– ‘“immunization plays a key role in eliminating poverty”. Really? Does it now?’
Yes, it does. For instance, it vastly reduces child mortality, which in turn encourages women to conceive less times. Still, get’em all scared of
the medics“the sirs” and maybe they’ll turn away from contraception too, eh? Keep’em pregnant all the time, just like the Good Old Days?– ‘According to the Big Pharma-owned “WHO”…’
(sigh) Conspiracy theory again! Here’s the WHO website hosting a paper by Ioaniddis, darling of the “it’s only flu” anti-mask, anti-lockdown, antisocial, pro-infection crowd:
https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf
– ‘If any government ever wants to vaccinate me against my will…’
Grief N_, the government hasn’t even mentioned mandatory vaccination. It’s only the conspiracy theorists who ever mention it and boy do they mention it often!
You’ve got MARXIST emblazoned across your daisy but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one bit of Marxist theory from you, just a load of conspiracy theory scaremongering. And Marx didn’t slander everyone with a job like you do; his economic theory teaches that people are motivated by self-interest, and thus capital and profit warp human behaviour. Are you trying to give Marxists a bad name?
Steph: – ” I promise not to post a link to anything lengthy which I find interesting again!”
I suggest that you summarise, or find a transcript. But even before that you should be suspicious when someone who knows how things are done in the scientific domain tries to influence public opinion directly, rather than presenting their idea to other scientists via the scientific literature, because this is the proper method by which the scientific consensus is forged. In the USA, the drug companies are permitted to advertise directly to the public; Yeadon is doing something similar.
You should also learn to recognise the structure of conspiracy theory. It goes “Mr Big wants so-and-so, and therefore all the so-called experts are just falling into line. Look! They are all hiding or denying this special knowledge which I am revealing to you; their mendacity proves that what I’m saying is true. Anyone who contradicts me is either in on it or duped by the mainstream media“. Nonsense like this is all over the Internet; it varies from mild to extreme but it all has the same basic structure.
Steph, here’s some conspiracy theory from nothinguptop:
– “I can only assume you like SA are avoiding that for some reason.”
Hinting that Dredd and SA are part of the conspiracy.
– “not low confidence shit like the Lancet tried to get away with”
Hinting that the Lancet is part of the conspiracy.
– “You’ll kick yourself when you realise”
ie. “I’m cleverer than you”, the stance that conspiracy theorists always take. By their own definition, conspiracy theorists are better than mere sheeple, so if you the reader wish to rise above the dumb herd you’ll have to join them.
– “You seem to have misled by mass media bullshit”
As I pointed out in my previous comment, it’s always “you’re a dupe of the mainstream media”.
It’s also unpleasant aggressive trolling; this sort of stuff is part of why I haven’t commented for the last fortnight. Driving other commenters away aids its effectiveness.
nothinguptop linked Jim Meehan’s blog, wherein Meehan recommended Cochrane Foundation and systematic reviews, preferably pre-2020, so…
Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses
Cochrane Systematic Review – Intervention Version published: 06 July 2011
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full
– Nine case‐control studies suggested implementing transmission barriers, isolation and hygienic measures are effective at containing respiratory virus epidemics. Surgical masks or N95 respirators were the most consistent and comprehensive supportive measures. N95 respirators were non‐inferior to simple surgical masks but more expensive, uncomfortable and irritating to skin.
– Implementing barriers to transmission, such as isolation, and hygienic measures (wearing masks, gloves and gowns) can be effective in containing respiratory virus epidemics or in hospital wards.
– simple mask‐wearing was highly effective […] (Analysis 1.3), based on seven studies (Chen 2009; Lau 2004a; Liu 2009; Nishiura 2005; Seto 2003; Wu 2004; Yin 2004)
Many claims Meehan makes are contradicted by the very sources he cites. The argument he promotes is political, “the politicians are trying to scare you”, but he presents no evidence for that. I expect that some politicians are trying to scare people (I wouldn’t know because I rarely listen to them but its the sort of thing that politicians often do) but if that’s the argument he’s making then that’s what he should present evidence for eg. quotes of politicians versus facts, rather than trying to misrepresent research results.
SA, November 3, 17:49, #62017
– “As to effects on other organs, my belief is that it is minimal, the major effect being on the respiratory tract. Other effects are probably should be taken as complications of being seriously ill and nursed in ITU.”
Blood clotting and renal problems are well established medically. The blood clotting causes heart attacks; there were loads of these in the early New York peak, many found by ambulance teams never made it to hospital.
– “I have seen no evidence that it affects IQ or fertility.”
These are from pre-prints; sorry, I don’t have the links. But we know it infects and affects neurons because a distinctive symptom is loss of taste and smell, though not caused by nasal congestion.
My point was that this virus is so new that we can’t yet know everything that it can do, but there are some very worrying indications. We can’t know long-term effects until a longer term has passed for effects to be noticed and for research to quantify them. Meanwhile, transmission should be vigorously suppressed.
SA, it’s very bad for the heart:
July 27, 2020
Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916
– Findings: In this cohort study including 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis.
That’s empirical; this article in Nature goes into the theory:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41569-020-0413-9
– “COVID-19 itself can also induce myocardial injury, arrhythmia, acute coronary syndrome and venous thromboembolism.”
Clark
I am very much aware of hyperactivity of the blood clotting system in covid-19 and resulting complications on many organs. I have referred to a paper above. Hypercoagulability is a complication found in many patients in ITU after major surgery because the coagulation system is often activated in inflammatory and traumatic conditions. In fact heparin and other blood thinning agents are now routinely used in these settings and also after heart attacks and stokes. What I meant to say is that the effects of covid-19 other than on the respiratory tract, are mainly secondary to these events and I do not think the virus attacks the heart or the brain or the kidneys directly. Covid-19 at its worst is bad enough and we do not need to be alarmist about its potential mass effect on intellect, fertility or the heart and kidneys. I have not looked but if you have references please post.SA, these two articles are summaries in plain language:
The first links to multiple papers. The second links to just the following preprint:
I see from my search results that the preprint has been widely promoted by the corporate media.
Sperm: this article summarises some findings from Professor Dan Aderka of the Sheba Medical Centre in Tel Aviv, and includes many other relevant links:
– …the virus was present in 13 percent of sperm samples taken from screened COVID-19 patients. He also found a 50 percent reduction in sperm volume, concentration, and motility in patients with moderate symptoms 30 days post diagnosis.
Here’s some research from China:
SA, I’m perturbed by your use of the word ‘alarmist’. If someone who sees evidence of fire says so, are they being alarmist?
I share your aversion to the polarisation arising around SARS-CoV-2, but we get nowhere useful by attempting compromise. Reality is what it is; objectivity cannot be achieved by searching for a description that upsets people the least.
I think the polarisation is being caused by:
(1) the corporate media, who simultaneously (a) are barely capable of treating technical issues intelligently, and who (b) pedal sensationalism to attract readers to sell to advertisers, (c) find ways to have a go at the government to bolster their own power, and yet (d) disparage anything that threatens profits such as social restrictions – the last three are hopelessly contradictory objectives, and
(2) the conspiracy theorists and downplayers, most of whom are probably just reacting against the corporate media, but probably also include a few malicious actors such as hostile state powers trying to maximise other states’ death rates and healthcare costs, and PR companies inciting public objection against profit-reducing social restrictions.
My own position regarding this never-seen-before virus is precautionary. There are many worrying signs so we should suppress it vigorously until our understanding is better, especially until we’re sure that getting infected a second time isn’t even worse than the first. It’s a coronavirus, and our experience with those is that infection doesn’t impart long-lasting immunity, but we also know it can provoke some extreme immune responses, so we should be very cautious until we can rule out antibody dependent enhancement upon second infection.
This is likely to be very time consuming to look at in detail, my general impression is that the points made are:
1. There are various neurological complications from covid 19 mainly in those who have been in ITU on a ventilator, and these had a number of pathologies, strokes, toxic confusion, encephalopathies, and perhaps a small minority specific encephalitis due to covid 19. This is probably the same rate of complications that you would see with anyone who has been in ITU and due to hypoxia, hypercoagulability and some immunological reactions.
2. These are mainly observational case reports, often there is no proper control group nor is there a strict denominator, so it is difficult to reach a conclusion as to how much a problem this is, and also how much a problem this is specifically in relation to covid-19.
3. I tried to read this preprint Adam Hampshire et al, ICL, I am not sure whether it will be accepted for publication but to me at least it has several problems. The data is based on an online questionnaire run by the BBC horizon program and therefor all the data is based on what the responders say, including whether they had a confirmed covid-19 test. Of course there is no control group and there is apparently no way to check on the accuracy of any of the data. It would be interesting to see if it is published, and if so, what the reviewers comments are.
In a situation like this there is a major bandwagon effect and a lot of observational studies where doctors and scientists observe some unusual complications and report them. Many of the reports are cautious to say things like, this warrants further investigations and so on. Given for example that the population at risk of severe covid 19 are also prone to strokes and cardiovascular events, to is very important to control for these factors. But claims that it ages you by ten years and you loose 8.6 percent of your IQ smack a bit like sensationalism.Clark
“COVID-19 may harm sperm production”. Lets leave it there. It sounds like the statements made by governments about novichok and other agents.
Alarmist: yes I used this term pointedly because it is at present just that, there is no solid basis for a mass effect. Any sick person will have reduced sperm counts. I have not read the paper or blog, but like papers and blogs that are posted by conspiracy theorists, I also will have to limit my reading to the larger picture and avoid being bogged down by these sort of diversions. Having said that I may have to eat my words and have egg on my face eventually, but somehow I don’t think so.Case studies
Case series
Phenomenology
These are all second tier type of research, maybe important background, but await proper investigation.SA, your comments on those papers are entirely appropriate. Yes, some of this is very vague data. Yes, it would be immensely time consuming for any individual, but thankfully there is a vast scientific community looking into all these preliminary studies.
But the process takes time, whereas probably the most certain thing about SARS-CoV-2 is that it can spread extremely fast. And it’s mutating, diversifying, and every additional infected person gives it more opportunities to do so.
Hence my frustration with those who argue against all and any measures to slow the damn thing down. Far better to take precautions now, show some patience and self restraint, such that we’re in a much better position if SARS-CoV-2 does spring some nasty surprises upon us in the coming months. Surprises like these:
Superantigenic character of an insert unique to SARS-CoV-2 spike supported by skewed TCR repertoire in patients with hyperinflammation
PNAS October 13, 2020 117 (41) 25254-25262; first published September 28, 2020
– A hyperinflammatory syndrome reminiscent of toxic shock syndrome (TSS) is observed in severe COVID-19 patients, including children with Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C). TSS is typically caused by pathogenic superantigens stimulating excessive activation of the adaptive immune system. We show that SARS-CoV-2 spike contains sequence and structure motifs highly similar to those of a bacterial superantigen and may directly bind T cell receptors. We further report a skewed T cell receptor repertoire in COVID-19 patients with severe hyperinflammation, in support of such a superantigenic effect. Notably, the superantigen-like motif is not present in other SARS family coronaviruses, which may explain the unique potential for SARS-CoV-2 to cause both MIS-C and the cytokine storm observed in adult COVID-19.
SARS-CoV-2 Uses CD4 to Infect T Helper Lymphocytes
doi.org/10.1101/2020.09.25.20200329
– The mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 infection may result in immune system dysfunction is not fully understood. Here we show that SARS-CoV-2 infects human CD4+ T helper cells, but not CD8+ T cells, and is present in blood and bronchoalveolar lavage T helper cells of severe COVID-19 patients. We demonstrated that SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein (S) directly binds to the CD4 molecule, which in turn mediates the entry of SARS- CoV-2 in T helper cells in a mechanism that also requires ACE2 and TMPRSS2. Once inside T helper cells, SARS-CoV-2 assembles viral factories, impairs cell function and may cause cell death. SARS-CoV-2 infected T helper cells express higher amounts of IL-10, which is associated with viral persistence and disease severity. Thus, CD4-mediated SARS-CoV-2 infection of T helper cells may explain the poor adaptive immune response of many COVID- 19 patients.
SA, we are not dealing with effects of a decades-old virus that previously went unnoticed because they are so rare. We are dealing with multiple, sketchily understood effects of a brand new virus that haven’t been quantified yet, and very probably can’t be quantified because there hasn’t yet been enough time for them to manifest widely.
If everyone who’s got it now turns out in six months time to still have it, replicating happily in their gut or, heaven forbid, their immune cells, we could be in really deep shit. What proportion of those who’ve been infected have been tested for either?
Exactly if being the operative word, let us wait and see.
– “let us wait and see”
Seems we have little choice, with our government treating us as lab rats for SARS-CoV-2 and giving it every advantage over us mere people as they can, and what feels like every disinformation agent in the world encouraging us to spread it as fast as possible. I’ve never felt so cynical in my life.
At least Cummings, who is behind this government’s failed policies is gone.
Funny how “general practitioners”, the money-grabbing ultra-cynical non-specialist medics paid by the government to delay working class people’s access to healthcare (but who can “refer you privately” if you slip them enough dosh), who disappeared for several months to count their money, supposedly terrified that the virus-infected hordes might spread the lergy in their “surgeries”, now plan to keep their offices open for long hours so that their staff can administer Pfizer’s “new type of vaccine” to as many plebs who are sucker enough to want it.
There’s a lesson here regarding their priorities.
Looks like it’s going to be quite a winter.
N_
You are talking crap. Sorry I don’t usually use this language but you are.
You know those sections (11-13) of the Coronavirus Act that allow the indemnification of certain health sector persons from liability for killing people, just so long as they’re doing stuff they’ve been told to “because of SARS-CoV2”?
Does the availability of indemnity apply to those who license and administer Pfizer’s new type of vaccine (mRNA), which looks as though it will be promoted throughout the British state and media?
Some of us have been saying for decades that the absence of proper criticism of the “health” and “education” systems is a massive weak spot for the left, and in working class critical consciousness. Looks as though it will soon be cash-in time for our rulers. Don’t even expect coffins, let alone being allowed to console each other at funerals.
– ‘working class critical consciousness’
Shouldn’t that be troll class, wantonly critical? Sure, all GPs are alike, just like gays, Jews and Gypsies are.
– ‘…proper criticism of the “health” and “education” systems‘
N_, I’ve never once known you criticise a system. Instead, you criticise entire classes of workers. Correction; you don’t criticise; you merely malign. I’m sick of your continual hate speech. Contribute something meaningful for a change.
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