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Node
Where do you stand on vaccines?I’ll duck that one for now. My views on the subject are complicated and require a more detailed explanation than I have time for now. I fear that any ambiguity in my answer would be weaponised first and clarification sought afterwards. Therefore let’s have that discussion another time.
I understand and sorry to intrude. Have you read the link above from Prospect above? You might find it interesting.
Earth’s current predicament is tragic. I frequently weep at how much is being lost, and the vast amount more that is likely to be lost. We have come so far; to destroy it all now would be unthinkable. I frequently consider suicide, but having been devastated by others’ suicides, I hold on, find support where I can.
Node, I wish to cooperate; I’d really rather not fight, I find it deeply distressing. But logic and reason are all we have, and I have no idea how to promote them without you taking me for an enemy. I really have no idea how to reach you. Please help if you can.
Clark and Node
Why do we all write here and why are why so dedicated to discuss? Because we care and that is a good start. Although we have different beliefs we still discuss with each other and perhaps try to convince each other. This is a difficult task because we all have different life experiences and different outlooks and personalities. I found discussing with Node and sometimes with other more extreme people here good because it sometimes makes me research and find things that I had not researched before and educate myself. It also makes me organize my thoughts. We all want to hear what we believe in. Let us keep the discussion healthy and invigorating and not downcutting and negative. I admit that sometimes I too indulge in negative writing.
My outlook is often optimistic, not because I do not see the evil but because I accept it is there and try to ameliorate its effects.
Clark, please do not take these discussions so seriously and please do not think negative thoughts. I am sure that even Node and others who polemically write against you, still appreciate what you write, and even if they don’t, others do. The world has many beauties and it is for us to find these and explore them. Put all negative thoughts behind you and keep fighting but not at the expense of your mental health.May 4, 2020 at 11:04: I wish to cooperate; I’d really rather not fight, I find it deeply distressing.
May 4, 2020 at 13:28: Who are the ‘conspiracy theorists’?” Er, can’t you see them? They’re all over this thread. Maybe you just can’t smell your own farts.
May 4, 2020 at 13:38: You know all those sheeple clapping the NHS workers that commenters on here have been berating? They have more humanity in their little fingernail than I see among the conspiracy theorists.
Node
You have to admit that the Rhys Jagger’ post that this was an answer to was particularly nasty. I hope you do not agree with Rhys and his extremist views.The World must learn from this, it can’t be allowed to happen again, at least for a very long time.
Millions will soon be out of work and hungry. Thousands will top themselves.
Old people consigned to a lonely demise. People will miss their surgery treatments.
Children not at school.
Home violence.
Lives blighted.
Families losing their homes.But
first we must learn, have the Chinese caused this terrible thing to happen.
Until we know this truth we can not be sure it wont happen again, soon.Michael
You seem to be on a mission on the side of Pompeo and Trump to denigrate China. The US intelligence which usually tries to cook up evidence has come with none. Hunches can’t form a basis for accusations; something more concrete has to be produced to get a case against China going. The US do it by constant repetition of the accusations: witness WMD, Syria and CW, Russiagate as examples. Until there is more evidence and actually until we get over this, this becomes a distraction from the fact that the US has not prepared for this and is not being honest about many things. Remember the war against China has not just started, the trade war has been going on. There is evidence that the US is preparing for war against Iran and possibly a proxy war against China alluded to in the ME forum.
Clark is right, the safety of bio labs needs to be tightened and subject to more scrutiny by an international treaty, although even these can be corrupted as we can see with the OPCW. But this does not only apply to China or even bio labs only. Many university labs experiment with all sorts of animal viruses and generic manipulations with potentially huge potential for damage. They are often not as strictly regulated as bio labs. But until we know more about this virus these accusations serve no purpose except those of US warmongers and their agenda.Here also is a well researched and argued article from Moon of Alabama.
michael, the very term “the Chinese” is misleading. Such terms, “the Chinese”, “the English”; they’re in common use, but they mash separate things together, like some national government, the people currently living within a certain national border, people from within that border but now living elsewhere, and people descended or partly descended from people in that place, wherever they live.
Really, all of us are just people, and each of us lives somewhere partly controlled by some government.
I think that SARS-CoV-2 may have escaped from a biolab, but that’s really nothing to do with “the Chinese”; neither the people nor the government. The people in China suffered horribly with covid-19. The Chinese government did some things wrong, and many things right. They release propaganda like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BZ09iNdvo
in which they mention all the things they did right, and omit the things they did wrong, like trying to silence the doctors who raised the alarm, and welding the doors closed on apartment blocks during the Wuhan lockdown. I quite like that piece of propaganda, because the US administration has been spectacularly stupid over this.
Did you read the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists’ link, “Threatened pandemics and laboratory escapes: Self-fulfilling prophecies”?
Lab escapes are nothing new; it’s just that this particular virus (if it is an escape; we don’t know) spreads really fast. It’s just a coincidence.
First, we have to mop this up, and heavy restrictions are the way to do that. Then we should do two things. The UK should declassify Exercise Cygnus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Cygnus
and implement proper pandemic precautions, as should all other countries. Covid-19 could have been contained and suppressed if every government had been prepared, and had implemented precautions when the WHO raised the alarm. And biolabs must be secured and regulated internationally.
Countries, especially the powerful Western countries must start respecting the UN.
Node, yes, I’m only human. Maybe all this death and suffering is just a game to you. I don’t know. I have been deeply touched by death, several times.
The IFR seems to be proving out around 1% in New York, with around an eighth of the population infected. Those seem to be about the most reliable numbers to date. The UK seems on that track too.
I’m angry, Node. Angry that commenters including you are attempting to undermine public understanding of science, trying to mislead readers into believing that SARS-CoV-2 is not a major threat, despite clear and unambiguous evidence that it is.
Oppose the stay-at-home laws by all honest means, but not by deception, because readers deserve respect. Readers have a right to make their own decisions, but misleading and confusing them undermines that right.
Node
What is your problem exactly? Is it that you think that the ‘lockdown’ is an over reaction? If so what do you think is the answer, because this discussion with Clark is sort of clouding the issue. If you can discuss them calmly.
There are several aspects of this debate:- How serious is the virus?
- Are the measures appropriate?
- Are the measures causing hardships and more damage than the virus?
And there are many more.
There are medical and scientific aspect, political, social and economic ones. We have to agree that the most solid ones are the scientific ones, but the others can be applied in different ways. Scientists unfortunately do not run the world but politicians do. I think a lot of the discussions seem to by and politicise the science rather than to analyse and attack the politics. I side effect of this is that you seem to be lined up with Boris and Trump on the science but against them on the politics which is causing you a dissonance which you seem to try to resolve by attacking the science more than attacking the politics.
But even the economics of the lockdown are debatable. I read somewhere that it was countries that had more efficient lockdowns during the Spanish flu epidemic that recovered quicker economically. We are all collectively suffering from trying to extrapolate what is best from limited data, in a rapidly evolving situation. Calm is required.
The Bank of England is expecting 14% drop in GDP this year, the biggest drop in economic activity, for three hundred years, meaning before the Industrial Revolution took hold.
Many people will lose their incomes and their homes.
Some may starve to death.
Three quarters of those who die, would be expected to die soon, anyway.
The answer should have been to shield the most at risk and let the rest take their chances, meaning let it rip.SA: “What is your problem exactly?”
Clark keeps calling me a psychopath and a liar, and not only do the Mods let him off with it, they delete my replies.
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[ Mod: FYI, your single deleted reply included these sentences, e.g.:Your “poor little sensitive me” act might be more convincing if it wasn’t accompanied by vicious insults.
…
If you want sympathy stop being an arsehole.Taunting and personal abuse are clear breaches of the moderation rules for commenters. ]
A scientist has pointed out that, the Government/NHS need to put their thinking caps on.
When they have fitted their thinking caps, they will find that the ill health of the nation is largely caused by highly processed factory food.
The average low paid U.K. person consumes 50% of their intake,
by consuming kebabs, bread, cakes, biscuits, t.v. microwave foods.
Pasta, processed puddings and so forth.If they only ate real food, that can be recognisable as something that has recently been alive, fish, shellfish, meat, eggs, carrots, cabbage, plums, turnips, fowl, they would loose visceral fat, start to reverse their type two diabetes
and start to lose weight, their brains would limber up and they might take up exercise, such as swimming, cycling , canoeing or walking.
Onward to a healthier life.
This change in what they eat will also reduce the amount of inflammations experienced and would deliver a longer healthier life.Mod: FYI, your single deleted reply included these sentences, e.g …
Not true. I also had a reply deleted yesterday in which I simply said “You got what you asked for” when Clark lamented contact tracing. If that’s not fair comment what is?
Plus how is this not playing the man : “Maybe all this death and suffering is just a game to you.”
Plus He’s calling me a liar here : “Angry that commenters including you are attempting to undermine public understanding of science, trying to mislead readers into believing that SARS-CoV-2 is not a major threat, despite clear and unambiguous evidence that it is. Oppose the stay-at-home laws by all honest means, but not by deception, because readers deserve respect. Readers have a right to make their own decisions, but misleading and confusing them undermines that right.”
Whatever my other faults, it ought to be plain to anybody that I am sincere in my belief that Covid-19 is being used by sinister powers to extend control over the world. But Clark can call me a liar with impunity. I understand why Clark gets special leniency from the Mods but you are not doing Craig;’s blog any favours letting him have the run of it like a spoiled child.
I remind you of his accusations towards other posters:
John Goss is “actually campaigning to maximise death and suffering”
Rhys Jaggar wants to “effectively waterboard half a million people for between a week and a month each, many of them to death,”
Loony is “trying to increase the death rate.”You wouldn’t let anyone make the same accusations about Clark. Let’s have a level playing firld.
Michael, I can think of some problems with your suggestion:
* Little is known about the effects of covid-19. There have been cases of lasting lung damage, organ damage and neurological damage, all also seen in younger and healthier people who have suffered covid-19. We won’t know how prevalent this is until hospital load is reduced and these ex-sufferers can be followed up, and that won’t be until after the crisis.
* Little is known about immunity imparted by covid-19; whether it is imparted to all who recover, how long it might last, and even whether reinfection leads to worse illness the next time. This can’t be known until there is more medical experience with covid-19 – only time can tell.
– “The answer should have been to shield the most at risk and let the rest take their chances”
* But the “most at risk” are the elderly and the infirm, so who is going to look after them, if everyone else is permitted to get infected?
Node, I haven’t asked for personal data to be sent to Mossad via Matthew Gould’s company and app, so your personal accusation was dishonest.
It doesn’t matter how sincere anyone’s beliefs are, they should respect facts, because doing so is a vital aspect of intellectual honesty.
It also doesn’t matter how sincere anyone’s beliefs are because, for instance, many Nazis beliefs were sincere, but just as objectionable nonetheless.
And Node, when I wrote “Maybe all this death and suffering is just a game to you”; I was and am genuinely wondering. You placed your importance of honesty at 85% but you seem to be attempting to undermine readers understanding of science, and contradicting logic itself, in order to further a quasi-political-economic argument about the UK’s stay-at-home laws. Your arguments seem reversed; you know the outcome you want, removal of restrictions, so to that end you seem to be toying, playing with facts and logic. But facts have logical consequences.
Node: “Covid-19 is being used by sinister powers to extend control over the world”
I agree.
But that doesn’t alter the facts that covid-19 is often a very bad illness with a high mortality rate, that it’s not a type of flu, that it multiplies very fast and thus overwhelms healthcare systems, that it kills slowly with immense suffering, etc.
You seem to me to believe that the end of preventing extended control justifies the means of permitting vast preventable suffering, in turn achieved through the means of misleading readers that covid-19 is less serious than the facts indicate.
And this is the crux of the matter. Because covid-19 is a threat we must focus on this fact irrespective of how the government mishandled the crisis and how they may be using it for nefarious purposes. That is what we should concentrate on. The first part is mostly science and undermining it only serves the other agendas. Of course we know that the neoliberal capitalist system will exploit any disaster for their own purposes. Witness how the crash of 2007-2008 ended up generated many more billionaires whilst millions suffered austerity. But arguing against the science just plays into the hands of those who want to exploit the disaster.
It is very important to realise what this is about. Individualism and individual freedom in this very interconnected world impinges on other people’s freedom. In this case irresponsible actions by individuals (including stupid advice like go and hug everyone: John Goss) or ignoring the social distancing does not only lead to more danger to yourself but also to many others.
Michael, I agree that good diet and exercise would be good things.
Many people are too tired after long hours doing shit work; they don’t get time to cook and exercise. Reduction in working hours and increase in hourly pay would help a lot. People would have more time and resources to engage in their communities, educate themselves, research the news in depth, engage politically, make and repair things, practice music, art and drama… Things could be much better than they are.
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